1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. I've been doing a 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: series of podcasts in ibogain as a potentially effective therapy 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: for treating post traumatic stress disorder, opioid addiction, and depression. 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Ibogain is a Level one substance as classified by the 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 1: Drug Enforcement Agency the United States, so many of the 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: treatment facilities are located in other countries, including Mexico and Canada. 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: After my conversations with both WW Bryan Hubbard from Americans 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: for Ibogaine and doctor Nolan Williams, who conducted a Stanford 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: study on ibogain, I was contacted by Ambio Life Sciences, 10 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: a company based in Mexico that administers ibogain treatments. They 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: have a great deal of experience in treating patients who 12 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: come to their facility for ibogain therapy, so I wanted 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: to have them on to talk about the process of 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: what patients experience. I'm really pleased to welcome my guests, 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: Jonathan Dickinson, CEO, and Jose and Sunza, chief medical Officer. 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: They are both co founders of Ambio Life Sciences, a 17 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: global leader in integrative I began treatment. Jonathan and Jose, 18 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: welcome and thank you for joining me. On news World. 19 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, sir, it's honor to be here. 20 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for the time. 21 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: Jonathan, you've been working with Iboga and I Begaine since 22 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, both clinically and ceremonially. What originally 23 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: drew you to this work and how has your understanding 24 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 1: of its potential involved over time. 25 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I began working with I began in late 26 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine and had to come down here 27 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: to Mexico to begin doing that work. What drew me 28 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: originally was that when I was in high school, I 29 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: was having a challenging time at one point, and I 30 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: went into my general physician who had me fill out 31 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: a nine item questionnaire that had Zoloft written on the 32 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: top corner of the header, and it determined that I 33 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: was depressed and needed a zole off prescription. So for 34 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:28,399 Speaker 2: several years I tried that and other ssrity depressants and 35 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: realized that they weren't really helping me much and had 36 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: a very very difficult time coming off of them, And 37 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: so I actually found other psychedelics early in my life, 38 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 2: several years after that, and after going through difficult withdrawals, 39 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 2: and they really helped me turn a corner and so 40 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: I feel like I was real again and I could 41 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 2: connect with life and to feel motivation and passion for 42 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 2: the world. And so that put me on a research 43 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: track that landed me in Mexico. So originally when I 44 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 2: came down, most of the treatment centers were focused on 45 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: opioid detoxification because ibgain is unique in its ability to 46 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: be able to mitigate withdrawal from opiates, and so that 47 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily my own experience, but it was such a 48 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 2: powerful and compelling use case for a psychedelic that I 49 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: dove right in. And it wasn't until four years ago 50 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 2: when we started working with an increasing number of veterans 51 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: who are looking for ibgin treatments that we started to 52 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: see the kind of story about what ibin was and 53 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: its potential and what it could do start to expand 54 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 2: into other arenas that were more similar to my own background. 55 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: So we have had the opportunity now working with veterans 56 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: to be able to see what it's like for patients 57 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 2: who I guess before we might have looked at a 58 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: lot of the health improvements that people hadn't attribute it 59 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: to the fact that they were no longer using drugs, 60 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: and now when drugs aren't always a factor, we're seeing 61 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: all kinds of sort of generalized health improvements or neurological 62 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: improvements that maybe are even underlying some of the benefits 63 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: for people with addictions. And so at MBO, you know, 64 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: in addition to working with Stanford and doctor Williams who 65 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 2: you had on previously and looking at its benefits for 66 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: traumatic brain injury and veterans, we've also been able to 67 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: see and start to describe some of the treatment effects 68 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: for people with other neurodegenerative conditions like Parkinson's and multiple sclerosis, 69 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 2: neuropathic pain, and other kinds of treatments for which there 70 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: are no existing pharmacological treatments available. 71 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: You're entering this new zone. And Jose, you've been a 72 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: paramedic and a firefighter. What brought you into the whole 73 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 1: eyeborgain treatment world? 74 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, So in two thousand and nine hour working 75 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 4: here in Tijuana and the fire department, so here in 76 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 4: the border, we are dealing with epidemic since the two thousands, right, 77 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 4: So I was pretty close with dealing with overdoses and 78 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 4: treating these type of people in the streets. So around 79 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 4: November of two thousand and nine, I was invited by 80 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 4: one of my teachers to go and see in front 81 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 4: of a patient going through an IBGAN treatment. I didn't 82 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 4: know back in that time what it was IVI in, 83 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 4: but I did my research and I find out a 84 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 4: lot of really interesting stuff. 85 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 3: Primary the power to reduce the withdrawal. 86 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 4: Symptoms in a matter of twenty four hours with this 87 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 4: type of patient. So since day one I was able 88 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 4: to experience and sit with somebody going through this process. 89 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 4: I was amazed by the power of this substance. I 90 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 4: was able to see somebody going through a really hardcore 91 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 4: addiction of a lot of years, then going through ibying, 92 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 4: and a matter of twelve or twenty four hours, this 93 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 4: person reduced dramastically with all symptoms she was feeling. So 94 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 4: at that moment I kind of realized that it was 95 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 4: really interesting in a really powerful medicine that I didn't 96 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 4: get teached in school. That exists, so for me open 97 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 4: a window to see the possibilities of healing and therapeutic 98 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 4: support with this medicine in terms of trauma and addiction. 99 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: Also, this was kind of a fortuitous piece of luck 100 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: that you observed that you saw it and you began 101 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: to respond to it. That's kind of amazing, is not. 102 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: It is now the two of you have both been 103 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: working with this in general, what would you say has 104 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: the reaction of the patient's been so far? 105 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 2: So generally, I mean, I think what we could say 106 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 2: is that people feel a sense of choice and agency 107 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: return where some aspect of that had eroded in their lives. 108 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: So it's maybe my attempt to try to find a 109 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: common denominator amongst people who have been using drugs and 110 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: feel like they don't have the option to stop. Like 111 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: when we get into an addictive pattern, it often feels 112 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: like by the time that we think about acting out 113 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: on an impulse, we're already well into the process of 114 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 2: doing it right. And so I begain in a very 115 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: short amount of time puts that back with an arom 116 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: of choice where we can have thoughts about a certain 117 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: behavior and choose not to act on it. I would 118 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: also say that one of the big motivations I think 119 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: for veterans coming down and one of the big goals 120 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: of the organizations like that's incorporated WOVE and providing grants 121 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: for treatments is for folks who are dealing with such 122 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: intense psychiatric or neurological symptoms that they're contemplating suicide. And 123 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: so I think one of the challenges when people are 124 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: facing that kind of impulse is not necessarily that there's 125 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: a desire to die, but that they kind of feel 126 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 2: backed into a corner and choice has again, in a 127 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: different way, eroded from their life, and that maybe suicide 128 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 2: is kind of this point of finality, like being able 129 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: to take back control of the story and have some 130 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: sort of control over life again. And so I think again, 131 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 2: when people are able to go through treatments, and whether 132 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 2: it's the psychological process that unfolds or the neurological improvement 133 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: that we're seeing or some mixture of both, I think again, 134 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 2: people feel this sense of choice again and this agency 135 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: to be able to engage in life and novel is. 136 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: And so I think it's difficult because we're getting to 137 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: see people from such different sort of walks of life 138 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: and different backgrounds. But I would say that's maybe one 139 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: of the commonalities, is this increasive agency for life. 140 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 4: So people common experience and I like to say they 141 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 4: are three bodies right in their mind, the psych but 142 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 4: also in the body, and it tends to heal also 143 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 4: what we call a spirit, right, that's what the sense 144 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 4: of the experience they have when they come true. Seems 145 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 4: like they're all the options to keep going in life 146 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 4: has ended for them and they don't see any exit 147 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 4: to see the light of the beauty in life, and 148 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 4: they come with all these negative emotions or this sensation 149 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 4: where life is just going uphill and they're getting fatigue 150 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 4: to keep going and to keep pushing. So we see 151 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 4: this synergy between working and there are three bodies to 152 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 4: say that it creates a huge impact with what Jonathan 153 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 4: is saying, which is just a matter of having choice 154 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 4: in their life, just a way to see that they 155 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 4: have options and it's not just the way they're acting 156 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 4: in their life, but also see a different perspective and 157 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 4: see the light out of it, you know, like the 158 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 4: cloud that they have over their heads. It goes away 159 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 4: after the journey and they go to some physiological aspects 160 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 4: you know, as in the acute phase of the treatment 161 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 4: and then after So it's a process. It's important to 162 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 4: say this. It's not just a magic pill, a magic 163 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 4: bullet that you just take once and everything ends, or 164 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 4: you're going to cure everything. It doesn't work like that. 165 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 4: It's more profound, and it's important to mention also that 166 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 4: this is not a cure. 167 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 3: For the diction. 168 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 4: Right, this is a huge tool for dependency, to help 169 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 4: people for dependency and for the physical dependency. Right after that, 170 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 4: there is still some work that we need to do 171 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 4: a matter of changing habits and take advantage of what 172 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 4: we call the critical period in the neuroplasticity may happense 173 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 4: after the treatment. 174 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: Well, right at the absolute cutting edge of science, and 175 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: that iboga contains at least thirteen different alkaloids. Does the 176 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: two of you work with it? What is your instinct 177 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: about what is it that makes this such a uniquely 178 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: powerful intervention? 179 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: Well, I think we still have a lot to learn 180 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: about how I begain works. What we've seen when we're 181 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 2: working with the other alkaloids, which are pretty minor sort 182 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: of constituents in the plant material, is that the mixture 183 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: is quite a lot stronger than just I begin on 184 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: a sound. So we don't really know necessarily if that 185 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: is because some of the other alkaloids are much more 186 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: potent by weight than ibegain is, or because they have 187 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 2: some kind of synergistic effects, or they change how we 188 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 2: metabolize the ibigain itself. Overall, whether we're working with the 189 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: eboga extract or working with purified ibogain, there's a very 190 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: consistent type of clinical effect that we get from it. 191 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 2: There's not a huge improvement from using very pure material. 192 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 2: In fact, what we find when the more pure the 193 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: ibogain is the almost more that we have to use, 194 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 2: because again it's less strong when there's less constituents in it, 195 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: so clinically or at least in the manufacturing process it 196 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: at least when we're not trying to satisfy FDA regulators, 197 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 2: there's not a huge return on investments for the increased 198 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: cost of reaching that level of purity, and we can 199 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: work with sort of a botanical drug to achieve the 200 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 2: same or sometimes even like more interesting subjective effects. 201 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: I'm reminded of the old story that you could never 202 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: get asper and approved today because we actually don't know 203 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: how it works. We've grandfathered in and we can produce 204 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: aspirin and billions of people have taken it, but we 205 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: literally could never meet the FDA standard. To what deal 206 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: is the very complexity of eyebo gain when measured against 207 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: what clearly is its impact put in a kind of 208 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: similar situation where we could spend so many years trying 209 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: to figure out what the underlying mechanisms are and we're 210 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: losing people every year while we're engaged in that kind 211 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: of research. 212 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a really good question that kind 213 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: of goes to their regulatory process. I think with aspirin, 214 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: one of the reasons why you might have an issue 215 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: getting it approved is because there's other things on the 216 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 2: market that have a similar kind of treatment effect. So 217 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: unless aspirin is substantially better than anything else that's out 218 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: there without understanding the mechanisms, it might be hard to approve. 219 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: In a case of I begain, It's very true we 220 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 2: don't understand fully it's mechanisms or how it works. We 221 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: have a lot of signals to work with. Ultimately, I 222 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: think that the process of studying I begin is going 223 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: to help us to better understand neuroscience and pharmacology. It's 224 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: going to drive us towards new disease targets and make 225 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: us think in a more complex way about how drugs 226 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: interact with neurons and others cells in the body. But 227 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 2: the benefit that I again has, even though we don't 228 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: necessarily have a fully transparent picture of how it works 229 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 2: is that its treatment effect is unmatched by anything else 230 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: that we know of today. So I think if you're 231 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: able to show that in a clinical trial and it's 232 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: evaluated on those merits, then it stands a chance. 233 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: In a sense, we can show you evidence that works. 234 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: We just can't show you an explanation. 235 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it depends to what degree can we 236 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: be certain about how it's achieving the effect, And right now, 237 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: I think we're still a ways from being able to 238 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: claim a high degree of certainty about that. 239 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: As Ambio's co founder, Jonathan, you led the development of 240 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: clinical guidelines for eyebogaine assisted detoxification, which remains a standard 241 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: in the field. In your experience, directly between the two 242 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: of you, to what extent have you able to minimize 243 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: the risk of side effects will helping people go through ibogain? 244 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is a really interesting question, and 245 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: it sort of benefits from having a little bit of 246 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: background about the history. So when I began was first 247 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: tabled in front of the FDA, it was the early 248 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: nineteen nineties, and this was the effort of Howard Lotzov, 249 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: who discovered that as a young Heroin user living in 250 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 2: Staten Island, New York. When he took ibagain without knowing 251 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: what it was for, just experimenting with different compounds, he 252 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: found that he had no more withdrawal, no more cravings 253 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 2: or desire to use heroin again. And years later he 254 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: kind of took up the mantle and pressed and pressed 255 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: until he got to the point where the FDA was 256 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: allowing clinical trials and the National Institute on Drug Abuse 257 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 2: were funding some of those studies. Unfortunately, for various reasons, 258 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 2: the studies were discontinued, and after that time there had 259 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: been so many people who had been through ibegain treatment 260 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 2: and seen the effects. KAT was out of the bag, 261 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 2: so to speak, and some of the people who had 262 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: begun working with it ended up either working underground in 263 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: the United States for a period of time because it 264 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 2: was a schedule one substance, or left the country and 265 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 2: ended up in Mexico. And Mexico has been sort of 266 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 2: a fertile ground for the development of the clinical protocols 267 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 2: over time, and so when I came down in two 268 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 2: thousand and nine, there had been a number of fatalities 269 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: and other kinds of adverse events that had occurred, and 270 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 2: so I led a process of consultation with providers all 271 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 2: over the world, largely in Mexico where most of the 272 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: treatments we are taking place, and we worked with those 273 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: clinical providers with their experience as well as medical professionals 274 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: and researchers to identify what the primary risks were and 275 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: very practical measures it could be taken to reduce them 276 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 2: at this point, and Jose can speak to this more 277 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 2: about how we've developed that practically, but I think we 278 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 2: have a very clear idea about how to screen for 279 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 2: and prevent cardiac risk with IVAN, which is one of 280 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 2: the main issues that normally gets brought up. I think 281 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: that there are still risk factors that are in play, 282 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: especially when we're looking at trying to take people off 283 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: of street drugs and there's unknown quantities because drug interactions 284 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 2: are another of the primary risks. So clinically we do 285 00:18:55,040 --> 00:19:00,120 Speaker 2: everything we can to control against the risk of people 286 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 2: of using drugs that we don't know about, or that 287 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: perhaps that they don't even know about our president and 288 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 2: substances that they're using. But if we're treating people who 289 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 2: are not coming off of drugs and we're just trying 290 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 2: to reduce the risk of cardiac conditions or other kind 291 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: of pre existing medical conditions causing harm. I think we 292 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 2: have a very good, strong understanding of how to mitigate 293 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 2: those risks, and we've demonstrated that clinically over years treating 294 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 2: thousands of individuals. 295 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: Well hose that let me ask you about that as 296 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: people go through this process. In the early days, as 297 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: I understand it, there was a real concern about cardiac 298 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: problems and that it could lead actually to heart attacks. 299 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: To what degree have you all been able to develop 300 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: an approach and I as I understand that part of 301 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: them may involve combining magnesium with ibergain, But to what 302 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: do we now is the risk of a heart attack 303 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: a dramatically lower risk than it was when people first 304 00:19:57,960 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: began experimenting. 305 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, So basically a lot of the work that we 306 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 4: have done to mitigate the risks with IVY and the 307 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 4: cardiac situation, it was just to use magnesium. 308 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 3: But that's just one key of the whole protocol. Right. 309 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 4: Something that we have work a lot is on the 310 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 4: preparation of the patient and is to assess a proper preparation. 311 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 4: So we need to understand the basically eye again is 312 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 4: like going to surgery, right, and the more stable your 313 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 4: physical body is to go into surgery less of the 314 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 4: risk it is for you to go into bad situation. 315 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 4: So this is a controlled treatment. The even that is 316 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 4: a threat of life of death, we need to prepare 317 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 4: the person physically for. 318 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 3: Them to go strongly into the treatment. 319 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 4: So some of all of the keys that we have 320 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 4: done to prevent or to mitigate cardiogo risks is to 321 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 4: evaluate really deeply the heart of the patients. Also understand 322 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 4: that sometimes medications are contrindicated with IBM, and we need 323 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 4: to stop those medications and we're talking here about SSRIs 324 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 4: until the presence, until the psychotics. So these are medications 325 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 4: that normally are really contrimunicated with ib Again, so it's 326 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 4: not just the magnesium part. It's also like hydration is 327 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 4: also helping the body with the metabolism after the IBM. 328 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 3: Some of the things that makes. 329 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 4: Ib IN really complex and the mechanism of action is 330 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 4: like the effects on the body can be lasting twenty 331 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 4: four hours three six hours, but the benefits of that 332 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 4: it comes after those twenty. 333 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 3: Four hours of tourist six hours. 334 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 4: So it means that once after the metabolite is out 335 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 4: of your body is when you start feeling like the 336 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 4: positivity effects, right, and that makes it really unique. That's 337 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 4: something that we are not used to in medicine, right, 338 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 4: where we normally are getting this. 339 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 3: Instet gratification, right, like I think the AD. 340 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 4: Bill and it's going to kick in twenty minutes at 341 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 4: an hour, and then it's going to take away my headache, right, 342 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 4: so done. But then with IBIN, it's like longer. Right, 343 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 4: it's going to stay in your body for twenty four 344 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 4: hours thwty six hours. But then after that is when 345 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 4: the positive effects are going to be coming. It is 346 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 4: when the neutroplasticity with all the effects on the cellular 347 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 4: level or the ATP level is going to be happening 348 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 4: as a reward. So thesepects going back into the cardiator 349 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 4: itself is not just the magnetium or the proper electrolytes. 350 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 4: That's how we call it because I mean it does 351 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 4: block the hard channels, but it's mostly how to prepare 352 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 4: the patient emotionally if physically to go into a treatment, right, 353 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 4: and physically we're talking about reduce all the medications that 354 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 4: are for example prolonging the QT segment, also making sure 355 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 4: that the people is well hydrated, has a proper diet, 356 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 4: has a proper digestion, a proper metabolism, and then we 357 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 4: get to a point where we can serve the medicine. 358 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 3: And mitigate those risks, right telic screening. 359 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 4: And I used to say that it's basically like if 360 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 4: somebody was going to surgery. 361 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: In a number of studies, you have an initial impact, 362 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: but then there's a significant number of people who ultimately 363 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: relapse back into some kind of addiction. Does that indicate 364 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: that for a lot of people this is great to 365 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: break the pattern, but then you have to have really 366 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: substantial help in order to acquire the habits to not 367 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: relapse back into the habit. I mean, how would you 368 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: read that? 369 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a lot of things that are 370 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,959 Speaker 2: factors when we're talking about addiction, and so one of 371 00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 2: them is that there's a pharmacological element. Drugs take hold 372 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: of the brain and the nervous system, and that's just 373 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 2: one of the fact that people experience withdrawal and craving, 374 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 2: which get worse. Actually the more that people use, the 375 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 2: more that people try to come off of them, there's 376 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 2: an effect where those same withdrawal symptoms kind of get 377 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 2: worse the more that we go through that cycle, and 378 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 2: so I begain can help dramatically better than anything else 379 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: with those kind of physiological aspects of addiction, but there's 380 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: also psychological aspects. There's also social factors that contribute to addiction, 381 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: and so it's something that we try to prepare people 382 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: for when they're going into treatment that the more that 383 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: they can prepare to take I begain, considering it sort 384 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 2: of like assistance to ease a big life transition, the 385 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: better that they can do on the other end, right, 386 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: so the more that they have things set up when 387 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: they get home in a support of setting, the better 388 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: they're going to do. I don't think we could see 389 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 2: a huge benefit taking people off of the streets and 390 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: then putting them back onto the streets, for example, just 391 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 2: a sort of extreme image of that. But if people 392 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: are attempting to transition into supportive housing and other kinds 393 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 2: of work programs and then need to undergo chemical detoxification 394 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: as part of that process, I begain can be part 395 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 2: of the picture. 396 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 3: I think. 397 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: Do you think that ultimately there'll be some kind of 398 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: sophisticated connectivity where you go in, you detox, but then 399 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: you're almost expected to go through a rebuilding of the 400 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: right healthy habits that the two have to be combined 401 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: for to have optimal impact. 402 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is correct. 403 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 4: That's basically how this gets present this treatment, right, Like 404 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 4: I said before, it's not a magic bullet, it's not 405 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 4: something that is just going to change your life. 406 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 3: In a matter of a day. Is basically that. 407 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 4: So I think it's a great tool to mitigate the 408 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 4: physical withdrawal up to ninety percent, and then also is 409 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 4: really beneficial opening again the critical period with this process 410 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 4: when you can create neuroplasticity, which that means create your 411 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 4: perception of. 412 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 3: Life and create new abits. 413 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 4: Right, So this critical period is really important for the 414 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 4: people to understand that's the moment what they want to change, 415 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 4: really the activity of their lives, so they can just 416 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 4: create a new pattern, right, And that's as big as 417 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 4: important as the ivy and treatment itself. So that's where 418 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 4: Jonathan is mentioning to prepare the patients and the people 419 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 4: right tonight, just expect an easy cure and an easy 420 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 4: step is going to be really helpful to mitigate the 421 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 4: physical withdrawal, which is like the biggest part. But then 422 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 4: alongside that you're going to have to create your new 423 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 4: life and work towards that. 424 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: To build on that a little bit. I think it's 425 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: really important that people feel very motivated to make that 426 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 2: change for themselves. Again, like I said, I think one 427 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: of the common denominators is that I begain gives us 428 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 2: back a greater sense of agency, and so when people 429 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 2: are already pursuing a change for themselves, they can make 430 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 2: great use of that increase agency and ability, right, And 431 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 2: so I think one of the things that we see 432 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: in Mexico is that by the time that people come 433 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: down here, they've already tried a lot of other things. 434 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: In most cases, they actually have to overcome quite a 435 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 2: few hurdles to get down here. So by the time 436 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 2: that people are coming to us, they've expressed and had 437 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: to act upon like a great deal of personal motivation, 438 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 2: and we think that contributes a lot to the success. 439 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 2: So I think it's important that when we look at 440 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 2: ibagain we see it as part of a process and 441 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 2: learn how to maximize this kind of efficacy in that way. 442 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: One of the things that led me to want to 443 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: interview you two is that when we did a podcast 444 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: with doctor Williams at Stanford, you all somehow connected and 445 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: so now you have the imprimature of standard for university, 446 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: which is one of the great research out of the world, 447 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: and then they are remarkably positive about what you're doing. 448 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: How did that come about? I mean, I think that's 449 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: very interesting that MBO ends up working with Stanford on 450 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: a really national class study. 451 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that came out of the relationship that 452 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: we have with veteran community organizations that are supporting veterans 453 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: to take IVY gain. They were really the common link 454 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: between us there. But yeah, it was an incredible experience 455 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: to be able to have. I think we've had a 456 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 2: really good relationship with different research partners over the years. 457 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 2: Obviously Stanford is one of the more prominent ones because 458 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: the study has already been published, but I think with 459 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: the real world evidence and clinical experience that we have, 460 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: we've been able to even go back to other research 461 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: partners as well and help to drive some of the 462 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 2: cellular research and animal research because we're able to sort 463 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: of hone in a little bit with them on what 464 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: would be interesting to look for. So I think it's 465 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: been a very fruitful partnership, and coming back from Stanford, 466 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 2: they've been able to show us because of the kind 467 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: of equipment and the experience that they have been able 468 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: to show us what's going on in the brain and 469 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: in the body to a higher degree of resolution that's 470 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: been able to help us improve further the treatment. 471 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: Building on what you've done with Stanford, I understand that 472 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: you recently announced the launch of the world's first clinical 473 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: eyeboo game program designed to accommodate patients with various neurodegeneral 474 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 1: diseases Parkinson's, multiple curoses, essential tremor, stroke, traumatic brain injury, 475 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: and als, which I think is one of the most 476 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: devastating and frightening of all diseases. I was like, can 477 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: you sort of help us understand this? 478 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 4: Yes, so we are learning about this medicine and the effects, right, 479 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 4: and everything came alone by seeing people with these type 480 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 4: of diagnosis come into what we call our foundational program 481 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 4: and seeing really remarkable positive effects. 482 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 3: You know, in terms of multipleus carosies. We have a case. 483 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 4: Study that Jenatan wrote and there's a qualture and learning 484 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 4: a lot about how these benefits was impacting these specific sicknesses. 485 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: Right. 486 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 4: For example, with Parkinson we just have a breadth fart 487 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 4: here with us an ambio and he was able to 488 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 4: express how beneficial was for him in terms of the 489 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 4: tremors not. 490 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 3: Just on the physical level, but also the emotional levels. 491 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 4: So just giving you a more outline in terms of 492 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 4: that the program is way way different to what we 493 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 4: call it, to the detox program or the detoxification program 494 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 4: and to the better program. Right, And we're still learning, 495 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 4: like what is happening with the persons, but we think 496 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 4: that we have figured out a way and a specific 497 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 4: protocol for them to reach certain specific therapeutic effects and 498 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 4: also again mitigating all the risks because now talking about 499 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 4: this population, we're addressing different risks, right, We're talking to 500 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 4: more elder people with more cardiac issues, with other type 501 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 4: of situations, visiological situations, and we have figured out a 502 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 4: way how to mitigate those spraces and create a benefit 503 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 4: for them. So some of the benefits as being releasing 504 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 4: the tremors and just in general benefit a lot the 505 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 4: quality of life of these people. Also, what we have 506 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 4: learned is that if we work at early stages of 507 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 4: each of these pathologics, the benefits are better. Right, So 508 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 4: we're still learning from it. We're hoping to create more 509 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 4: research and more data in these patients so we can 510 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 4: start creating more cases. 511 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 3: Studies and publish about this. I'm going to let Jonathan 512 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 3: to share a little bit about that too. 513 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 2: The program itself came out of this increase of interest 514 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 2: in general in IVY game, and so we'd for years 515 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 2: been working with individual patients, but when this influx of 516 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 2: interests began to pour in, we were able to create 517 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: these affinity groups of people with either Parkinson's or m 518 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: mass or different conditions who are able to go through 519 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: the program together. So we're really rapidly scaling up the 520 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: amount of data and clinical experience that we have about 521 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: these kind of conditions, and we say that we're creating 522 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: a program to accommodate these conditions rather than treat them, 523 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 2: because the facility is designed to receive people who are 524 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 2: in wheelchairs and have mobility issues, and we provide physiotherapy 525 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: and other kinds of things, but we don't necessarily know 526 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: exactly what to expect in terms of a treatment effect. 527 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 2: So for years what we've been telling people is, look, 528 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 2: if you're at the end of the rope and you're 529 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 2: wanting to try again, we know enough now through the 530 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: safety protocols that we've developed, that we can screen and 531 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 2: provide this safely for you. We don't know what the 532 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 2: outcomes will be, but as Jose has been describing, it's 533 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: been across the board positive. Some people respond much better 534 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 2: than others. Some people are having really powerful transformative experiences 535 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 2: very suddenly. Others it's more gradual or more subtle the changes. 536 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 2: But in either case, these are changes that we're seeing 537 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 2: in patients where nobody's necessarily expecting to see any benefits, 538 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: so it is very promising. 539 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,879 Speaker 1: I have to say, the more I've learned, the more 540 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: intrigued I am. And Jonathan and Jose, I want to 541 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me and sharing with us what 542 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: patients who receive I begain treatments experience. And I want 543 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: our listeners know they can find out more about this 544 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: extraordinary historic work that you were doing by visiting the 545 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: Ambo Life Sciences website, which is Ambo dot life, that's 546 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: Ambio dot Life, and we'll certainly have that on our 547 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: show page. But I appreciate the two of you taking 548 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: time out of your extraordinary schedule to share with us 549 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: with our friends the kind of exciting things you're now doing. 550 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, mister speaker. Has been an honor 551 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 2: to be here and to share a little bit of 552 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 2: our work. 553 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,439 Speaker 3: Thank you, Yeah, thank you so much for your time 554 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 3: and for the invitation. 555 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests than Dickinson and Jose and Sunsea. 556 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: You can learn more about the ambio life sciences on 557 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. Nichworld is produced 558 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: by Gingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is 559 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for 560 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to 561 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: the team at Gingish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newsworld, 562 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 563 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 564 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 565 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,839 Speaker 1: of Nichworld consigner for my three free weekly columns at 566 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: ganishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm ne Ginglish. This 567 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: is neut World