1
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

2
00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:06,720
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to cool people do cool stuff, but

3
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,080
Speaker 2: your weekly reminder that I'm a nerd. I'm your host,

4
00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,280
Speaker 2: Maria Kiljoy and with me today is my guest Edza

5
00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:19,840
Speaker 2: Trun who's the host of Better Offline. Hi. Hi ho

6
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,360
Speaker 2: h Offline Just life.

7
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely just flawless introduction from me, and I'm just unable

8
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,280
Speaker 3: to communicate with the human Yeah.

9
00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,400
Speaker 2: That's that's why we get paid the big bucks.

10
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,559
Speaker 3: That's why we told good Macron.

11
00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they told us we had faces for radio,

12
00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 2: and then here we are. Our producer today is Sharene

13
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,680
Speaker 2: Hi Sharen. Hi, I'm back, Sharene. When did you play

14
00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:49,720
Speaker 2: D and D? What was it like? How'd it go?

15
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,080
Speaker 1: I mean, if I'm being honest, it was like maybe

16
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,000
Speaker 1: twelve thirteen years ago. It was a long time ago.

17
00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And if I'm being honest, I thought it

18
00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 1: was a little boring. Yeah, really long. It's like the

19
00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:04,480
Speaker 1: Baseball of games.

20
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:09,520
Speaker 3: It takes a way to yeah.

21
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,679
Speaker 1: And I don't it's hard to pay attention and most

22
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,040
Speaker 1: people are really into it, so if you're not, it's

23
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 1: just kind of a weird vibe.

24
00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,280
Speaker 2: But that makes a lot of sense to me. I

25
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,400
Speaker 2: feel like it might be they just like not into it.

26
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 2: And there's also that I think that a lot of

27
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 2: people running games just sort of take it for granted

28
00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 2: that everyone's having fun. Whereas I was reading this thing

29
00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,199
Speaker 2: I really liked while I was doing research for this episode,

30
00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,679
Speaker 2: where I was talking about how like people are used

31
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,720
Speaker 2: to coming into games where it's like this team versus

32
00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,520
Speaker 2: that team, but the players are working together, and then

33
00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,280
Speaker 2: the game master's goal isn't to kill all the players,

34
00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,560
Speaker 2: it's to make them have fun. And that's like your

35
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 2: win condition.

36
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 3: Punish them.

37
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guy gaxit's punish them.

38
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with games. I love any kind of game,

39
00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 1: I love any kind of puzzle, but I just need

40
00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,280
Speaker 1: able to have and I'm very competitive. At the same time,

41
00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,880
Speaker 1: I understand people being into something. But D and D

42
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,040
Speaker 1: has a it's a little too much for me. Maybe

43
00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:09,680
Speaker 1: there's just a little too much of a.

44
00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:11,400
Speaker 2: It feels like.

45
00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,799
Speaker 3: Something that's very variable based on the group you have.

46
00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,960
Speaker 2: My best mate, it's very true, plays.

47
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:17,959
Speaker 4: D and D.

48
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,000
Speaker 3: He's a great dungeon master and also apparently very horrible

49
00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,359
Speaker 3: to people during it in a fun way. But I imagine

50
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 3: if you get kind of a half ost group or

51
00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,320
Speaker 3: you get like a guy gag style guy. Yeah, the

52
00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,640
Speaker 3: guy's like, ah, but the book was the book was cursed.

53
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,040
Speaker 3: You opened and read the cursed book, you fucking idiot.

54
00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 3: How didn't you know that? Yeah? And I get I

55
00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,640
Speaker 3: guess maybe there's some sort of line to drive from.

56
00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,480
Speaker 3: Was Guy GaX a very paranoid guy?

57
00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:47,720
Speaker 2: Yes? I was after him.

58
00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,640
Speaker 3: Okay, so he may legitimately have just been trying to

59
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,880
Speaker 3: teach people or just lived his life in his constant stay. Well,

60
00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 3: is this dangerous? Is there a centipede in there?

61
00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,280
Speaker 2: Gary? Gary, we're in an Albertson.

62
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:03,360
Speaker 3: We'll get buying groceries imilipeds in it?

63
00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,280
Speaker 2: Dangerous reason. I got really excited when I found out

64
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,880
Speaker 2: the first game of D and d Ever had centipedes

65
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 2: as the the monster. Was that in the game that

66
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,560
Speaker 2: I wrote the number city, the like generic first enemy

67
00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,520
Speaker 2: for the players to fight is giant centipedes. Yeah, if

68
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:21,920
Speaker 2: you don't know what.

69
00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 1: In most games, I mean not pretty sure worm you know,

70
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,280
Speaker 1: like Zelda had like the worm that in the sand

71
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:30,120
Speaker 1: like it was.

72
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the slimes and dragon, I mean I'm pretty

73
00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,640
Speaker 2: sure that they were in early EverQuest.

74
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 3: Whatever. The someone listening to this is going to correct

75
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,680
Speaker 3: me here. Pretty sure what the second zone of Western

76
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 3: Commons after knos Quinos. It was Sony EQ backwards. I'm

77
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 3: pretty sure that there were some there, but it might

78
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 3: also have been the later expansion. If you email me

79
00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,680
Speaker 3: and want to talk about EverQuest, I will talk to

80
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 3: you all day. I got a lot of depression in

81
00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:57,280
Speaker 3: that game.

82
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,200
Speaker 2: I am very grateful that I am old enough that

83
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 2: World of Warcraft came out after I was done with

84
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,720
Speaker 2: high school. Yeah, it was.

85
00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 1: It was a tough time to have to be around

86
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:10,320
Speaker 1: for the high school.

87
00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,960
Speaker 2: Time of Wow. Yeah, I was.

88
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,640
Speaker 3: I was EverQuest in high school. Wow. In the beginning

89
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,360
Speaker 3: of Carl Wow. Wow. Towards the end, do you know

90
00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,839
Speaker 3: how World of Warcraft actually got started? Though? Just taking

91
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,839
Speaker 3: the show. But there's a very short story. Okay, so

92
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,600
Speaker 3: well towards the EverQuest is still going for some reason day.

93
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,480
Speaker 3: But what happened towards the end in the name they

94
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 3: keep claiming it the end of the Shadows of Lukelin expansion,

95
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,040
Speaker 3: which was set on the moon, or maybe it was

96
00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:43,520
Speaker 3: the Planes of Power there was, Yeah, it was the

97
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,240
Speaker 3: Planes of Power expansion, and the game was kind of

98
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,279
Speaker 3: very obviously starting to fall apart.

99
00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:48,680
Speaker 2: Like.

100
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,520
Speaker 3: It was obvious that the developers kind of weren't fucking

101
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,919
Speaker 3: sure what to sell people anymore. And there was this

102
00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,839
Speaker 3: final level raide level called Planes of Time and a group,

103
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,800
Speaker 3: one of the bigger groups, Fires of Heaven, one of

104
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,279
Speaker 3: the they went to it. They got to the thing

105
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,400
Speaker 3: and it just didn't work. It was very obvious that

106
00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,159
Speaker 3: Sony did not expect Sony Online Entiment did not expect

107
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,760
Speaker 3: people to get there. Guy called four Or got very

108
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,640
Speaker 3: pissy about it. Another guy called tig old Bitties was

109
00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,680
Speaker 3: his name, and on the nameless I believe Legacy.

110
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 2: A classic English name. Both of these two guys.

111
00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:28,479
Speaker 3: Insult the culture, insult them all away. Jeff Kaplan who

112
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 3: played tig Ole Bitties. He is now senior at Blizzard

113
00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,760
Speaker 3: Activision Blizzard, so is Rob Pardo, who I believe is

114
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,640
Speaker 3: also on Legacy of Steel, as well as Furor, who

115
00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,000
Speaker 3: I can't remember the real name of. I've actually also

116
00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 3: been a weird guy. Nevertheless, what World of Warcraft did

117
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,720
Speaker 3: and what Blizzard did, because they used to be quite

118
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,240
Speaker 3: a smart company, was they just hired people from the

119
00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,680
Speaker 3: EverQuest forums whoa okay, they hired them and they went

120
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 3: and they everyone I've met a Blizzard really not like

121
00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,680
Speaker 3: World of Walcroff was actually founded on something kind of cool,

122
00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,320
Speaker 3: which is these people actually played the game.

123
00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,840
Speaker 2: It's crazy idea, yeah fans. Yeah, but all of.

124
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,280
Speaker 3: This, like mailing people's stuff and all of this like

125
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,239
Speaker 3: really petty shit, kind of reminds me of the Fires

126
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 3: of Heaven days when people just went on there like well,

127
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,000
Speaker 3: that's actually the conflict needs being and it was usually

128
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,560
Speaker 3: just directed at the game developers, who are in this

129
00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,360
Speaker 3: thankless job of just knowing that they had to make

130
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,120
Speaker 3: these people happy, but knowing that this was like twenty people, yeah,

131
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,400
Speaker 3: in a game with hundreds of thousands, if not millions

132
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,240
Speaker 3: of players, and you just had to make these very

133
00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,320
Speaker 3: loud people who people just agreed with. Anyway, that's my story.

134
00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:35,120
Speaker 3: No that sorry for that.

135
00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 2: No, it's a good like nothing ever changes about nerds thing,

136
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,120
Speaker 2: you know, And again for all my like, well, I

137
00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,120
Speaker 2: think I started this episode by saying I'm a nerd,

138
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:50,400
Speaker 2: I'm whatever. So in case you're just joining now, which

139
00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,040
Speaker 2: would be a very strange thing for you to do.

140
00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,680
Speaker 2: This is part two of a two parter about the

141
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,200
Speaker 2: history of Dungeons and Dragons and role playing games in general.

142
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,920
Speaker 2: Where we last left our heroes, they were working for

143
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,560
Speaker 2: minimum wage for a monster who invented D and D,

144
00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,400
Speaker 2: swimming around a man who wait, he can't sue me,

145
00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:16,160
Speaker 2: he's dead buildings. Yeah. D and d's early heyday is

146
00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,560
Speaker 2: the mid nineteen seventies of the mid nineteen eighties, and

147
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:24,320
Speaker 2: this is a time when, especially for white American culture,

148
00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 2: it's obsessively and we talked with this last time, almost

149
00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 2: pathologically non political. Don't talk about politics is of course

150
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,840
Speaker 2: a political position, one that reinforced the status quote capitalism, consumerism,

151
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:35,960
Speaker 2: and shit. Everyone in twenty twenty four knows that fucking shit,

152
00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,680
Speaker 2: but people didn't want to hear it back then. The

153
00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,840
Speaker 2: thing is, though, the cultural influences on D and D

154
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,200
Speaker 2: and RPGs more broadly way way the fuck political in

155
00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,400
Speaker 2: all kinds of ways, both good ways and bad ways.

156
00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,040
Speaker 2: You don't live through the forties or the sixties without

157
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,920
Speaker 2: paying attention to how the world works and noticing that

158
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people trying to make very dramatic

159
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,120
Speaker 2: changes in how the world works. There are all kinds

160
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,239
Speaker 2: of influences on Dungeons and Dragons, of course, high fantasy

161
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,600
Speaker 2: and epic fantasy. We're really getting going by the nineteen sixties.

162
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 2: But two of the most present and clear influences are

163
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 2: two authors I've paid a lot of attention to as

164
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 2: relates to their political positions. J R. Tolkien, who's probably

165
00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 2: from the same town as you because he's British, and

166
00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,800
Speaker 2: fucking Michael Moorcock, who is also British. I assume people

167
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 2: have heard of Tolkien, and if people are first hearing

168
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 2: about Morcock just now, you're going to be in this

169
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,200
Speaker 2: stage for about a year where you can't say his

170
00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 2: name without laughing.

171
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,600
Speaker 3: Oh fuck, he was he was born He wasn't even

172
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:41,760
Speaker 3: born in England, j R. R.

173
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:42,360
Speaker 2: Tolkien.

174
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:43,840
Speaker 3: He was born in South Africa.

175
00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:46,640
Speaker 2: Oh shit, really that makes sense.

176
00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,199
Speaker 3: He died in Bournemouth, which is where my mother was born.

177
00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,480
Speaker 3: And I thought I was about to be very embarrassed,

178
00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,600
Speaker 3: like the technically we all kind of from the same place.

179
00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,640
Speaker 2: No, yeah, I love that. You know this British guy

180
00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,200
Speaker 2: and you're like, yeah, of course there's three people on

181
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,360
Speaker 2: this island and no one's angry.

182
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,840
Speaker 3: Yeah hate each other. So wait, there's a fellow called

183
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:09,880
Speaker 3: Morecock in England.

184
00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:11,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, Michael Moorcock.

185
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's got a rough ross secondary school for that man.

186
00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,360
Speaker 2: Either we are if they all read any more Cock, No,

187
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,120
Speaker 2: I've had plenty. Thanks, yeah, I will. I won't expect

188
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 2: any of you to say his name yet. In a

189
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 2: year he'll be able to say his name. Just too

190
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,080
Speaker 2: hard to pronounce anyway.

191
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,400
Speaker 3: I think Michael Moorcock might have actually grown up near me. Yeah,

192
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,640
Speaker 3: he lives in Texas now, born in London and thirty

193
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,680
Speaker 3: nine of the landscape of London, particularly the er in

194
00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,240
Speaker 3: notting Hill and Labort Grove. Labbort Grove is very close

195
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 3: to where I grew up.

196
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,720
Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, See there's three people in England and none

197
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,280
Speaker 2: of them live there, and one of them is here.

198
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada.

199
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,679
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna go too deep on talking because he's

200
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,600
Speaker 2: probably gonna get his own episodes one of these days

201
00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 2: when I'm because, but I'm gonna say a few things

202
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,920
Speaker 2: about him first. Anyone isn't aware of J. R. Tolkien.

203
00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:05,760
Speaker 2: This is the guy who wrote Lord of the Rings,

204
00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 2: which is basically where modern fantasy fiction comes from. He

205
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,319
Speaker 2: didn't invent the genre, but he breathed life into it.

206
00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,520
Speaker 2: Another one of my favorite authors, Terry Pratchett, said about

207
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,679
Speaker 2: who's also British God damn it said about Tolkien and

208
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:23,840
Speaker 2: his influence quote j R. R. Tolkien has become a

209
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,000
Speaker 2: sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy, the way

210
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,400
Speaker 2: that Mount Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes

211
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 2: it's big and up close, sometimes it's just shape on

212
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 2: the horizon. Sometimes it's not there at all, which means

213
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,199
Speaker 2: either of the artist has either made a deliberate decision

214
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,840
Speaker 2: against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is

215
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:47,520
Speaker 2: in fact standing on Mount Fuji. So whenever there isn't

216
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:53,000
Speaker 2: Tolkien in fantasy, it is a conscious choice, right Terry, Yeah,

217
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,719
Speaker 2: Terry Bratchet is probably the most blameless of all these.

218
00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,880
Speaker 3: People, one of the few people I'll say whatever, Yeah,

219
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,679
Speaker 3: I got nothing bad to say about Terry.

220
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,000
Speaker 2: No, the only good cop he know is uh Vimes.

221
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 3: Vimes. Yeah, it was luck how he didn't like being

222
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,360
Speaker 3: He didn't like other people to shave him. WHOA.

223
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,800
Speaker 2: When that other British author decided to come out as

224
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,800
Speaker 2: a massive transphobe a couple of years ago, there's this

225
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,199
Speaker 2: Everyone was like, oh God, this is sad and horrible.

226
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,720
Speaker 2: And then this person told a story, this trans woman

227
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 2: told a story about meeting Terry Pratchett and getting her

228
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 2: book signed by Terry Pratchett and being like, well, my

229
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,080
Speaker 2: name is actually and then gave a boy's name, but

230
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,920
Speaker 2: I'm trying to change my name to girl's name, and

231
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,679
Speaker 2: Terry Pratchett was like, oh great, and signed it to

232
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:40,319
Speaker 2: the girl's name and was like that, good luck with

233
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:40,839
Speaker 2: every name.

234
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. What a legend. Yeah, and so I have no

235
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,319
Speaker 3: idea what the other author is. But if I did,

236
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,280
Speaker 3: they get it by a big truck.

237
00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 2: An obscure lady that no one pays attention to anymore.

238
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,240
Speaker 2: Tolkien has earned his detractors. He is an English Catholic

239
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,280
Speaker 2: who's obsessed with Norse mythology, so his monumental impact on

240
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,920
Speaker 2: fantasy has made it extra hard for non European fantasy

241
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,480
Speaker 2: and medieval stuff to really break through culturally. And his writing,

242
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,120
Speaker 2: while I would argue it's well intentioned, is absolutely racist.

243
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,040
Speaker 2: In a short story I wrote back a while back,

244
00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,320
Speaker 2: a character calls him the most influential, subconsciously racist author

245
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,720
Speaker 2: of the twentieth century, and I stand by that completely.

246
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 3: It makes say it was the World War One veteran

247
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,600
Speaker 3: as well. Yeah, he grew up in like.

248
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,079
Speaker 2: The Golden Age, of British racism. Yeah, and he tried

249
00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:37,040
Speaker 2: not to be. And he actively worked against racism while

250
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:44,560
Speaker 2: unconsciously absolutely encouraging racism fairly our a bias. His villains

251
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,720
Speaker 2: are basically Middle Eastern coded and Orcs are like born

252
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 2: bad and all kinds of other shit. He was also

253
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 2: vocally anti Nazi. The Nazis wrote saying they wanted to

254
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,240
Speaker 2: translate his stuff into German, but they wanted to make

255
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,680
Speaker 2: sure he wasn't Jewish first, and he told his publisher,

256
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,439
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned, they can go hang. And

257
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,719
Speaker 2: he told Nazis, if I am to understand that you

258
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,040
Speaker 2: are inquiring whether or not I am of Jewish origin,

259
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,320
Speaker 2: I can only reply that I regret that I appeared

260
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,959
Speaker 2: to have no ancestors of that gifted people nice And

261
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,480
Speaker 2: so Nazi Germany did not publish translations of his books.

262
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,760
Speaker 2: He also wrote some of the most compelling critiques of

263
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,640
Speaker 2: political power ever written, and he wasn't subtle when he

264
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:30,480
Speaker 2: named the ring of power the ring of power which

265
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,760
Speaker 2: is not to be used but instead cast into the

266
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,440
Speaker 2: fires of Mount Doom. Near the end of his life,

267
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,520
Speaker 2: he wrote a letter to his son saying this politics

268
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,319
Speaker 2: were moving more and more towards anarchism. He wrote a

269
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,679
Speaker 2: world full of elves and dwarves and hobbits, which is

270
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,079
Speaker 2: what D and D is, except D and D had

271
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,599
Speaker 2: to change it's the name of hobbits to halflings to

272
00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,319
Speaker 2: avoid a lawsuit. He basically set up all the fucking

273
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,520
Speaker 2: tropes of modern fantasy, well a lot of them, because

274
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:04,360
Speaker 2: actually all these other writers did too, and hippies love Tolkien.

275
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,880
Speaker 2: So you have all these like crazy radicals through the

276
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,079
Speaker 2: sixties and seventies, like kind of doing shit and naming

277
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,840
Speaker 2: it after shit from Lord of the Rings and shit.

278
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,160
Speaker 2: Hippies love Tolkien, but not all of them. One fantasy

279
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 2: author writing during that time whose influence on D and

280
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:21,560
Speaker 2: D is just as apparent when you dig into it,

281
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 2: is the anarchist author Michael Moorcock. Morcock is mostly known

282
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,200
Speaker 2: today for writing el Rick, maybe the first anti hero

283
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,920
Speaker 2: the fantasy genre. Morcock also invented the chaos star, that

284
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,360
Speaker 2: eight pointed star that everyone either loves or hates, and

285
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,840
Speaker 2: there's always annoying discourse about on the Internet unless you

286
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,680
Speaker 2: live in a blessed corner of the Internet that doesn't

287
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,880
Speaker 2: care about the sort of thing, which case I'm envious

288
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,600
Speaker 2: all kinds of shit from him ended up in D

289
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,920
Speaker 2: and D and D and D. There's like this, and

290
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,000
Speaker 2: some of it's like bad and annoying stuff in D

291
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 2: and D, Like basically everyone speaks this language called Common,

292
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 2: which is more or less like English. Like if you're

293
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 2: like an elf, you speak Elvin and Common. If you're

294
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,640
Speaker 2: a human, you just speak Common. So just fucking Americans

295
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,680
Speaker 2: in English, you know, right. That comes from Michael Morcock.

296
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,040
Speaker 2: He had the common tongue that he wrote into things.

297
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,360
Speaker 2: Also drinking a potion that makes you immune to edged weapons,

298
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 2: which is some obscure, random gamey shit. He wrote gamey

299
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,760
Speaker 2: ass fiction like it was just full of game stuff.

300
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,200
Speaker 2: Put on a ring that makes you move twice as fast,

301
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,600
Speaker 2: that kind of fancy writing. Yeah, all these new moods.

302
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,520
Speaker 3: Sound one hundred years old, these new movies, it's all

303
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,560
Speaker 3: like interconnected shit. Oh, it's got to be a franchise thing. Now,

304
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 3: why didn't you get cart I took a poshm. Yeah,

305
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,280
Speaker 3: why are we in a fancy world if we can't

306
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,360
Speaker 3: use the easy tree? The fuck that it has?

307
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,680
Speaker 2: It's fantasy? Yeah, yeah, I have some.

308
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 3: Fun with everything. Some fucking dull these days.

309
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,280
Speaker 2: He might like his writing, his writing is like kind

310
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,800
Speaker 2: of edgy, but pulpy and well, not edgy. If he

311
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 2: took the potion, that's true, it's immune. Well, people can

312
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,160
Speaker 2: be as edgy as they want around him, He's immune

313
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:04,680
Speaker 2: to it. He also cynical talking swords comes from fucking

314
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 2: Michael Morricock. And maybe most importantly, he frames his book

315
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,880
Speaker 2: as books a lot of them as this like weird

316
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 2: theological war between the universal forces of law and chaos,

317
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 2: only he's not in favor of law. His hero is

318
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,040
Speaker 2: a chaos paragon. The D and D alignment system of

319
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,360
Speaker 2: morality used to just be law versus chaos. Eventually it

320
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,000
Speaker 2: became a two axis chart of law and chaos and

321
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 2: good and evil. Morcock also wasn't a big fan of Tolkien.

322
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,040
Speaker 2: He didn't like cozy moral stories of good and evil.

323
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 2: I love Tolkien, but I also love my Morcock's teardown

324
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,480
Speaker 2: of the Lord of the Rings, which is called the

325
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 2: Epic Pooh, which compares Lord of the Rings to the

326
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 2: Winnie Pooh to the Winny Pooh, Winnie.

327
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:54,600
Speaker 4: The Pooh, the Winnie the Witty the Pooh. Yeah no,

328
00:16:54,760 --> 00:17:00,200
Speaker 4: the Winnie Pooh has his real name. Yeah, clipp is game.

329
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 3: The other day drunk off his ass yelling at the

330
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,280
Speaker 3: dances got chucked out of the half.

331
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, a fucking winny. So Morcock was part of this

332
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 2: culture of like free sharing of ideas, that was a

333
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:21,440
Speaker 2: common hippie thing. That was where the juice of D

334
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,680
Speaker 2: and D comes from. I will never call it that again.

335
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 2: Morcock freely gave permission to the founders of D and

336
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,399
Speaker 2: D to use his stuff without credit or payment. He wrote,

337
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 2: quote when I told the original D and D guys

338
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 2: they could use elric it was in the spirit of

339
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 2: the sixties slash seventies, when it seemed to many of

340
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,119
Speaker 2: us that we were sharing in a common culture and

341
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,120
Speaker 2: the products of that culture. Of course, I hadn't anticipated

342
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 2: that some people would start turning all this stuff into

343
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,600
Speaker 2: commercial businesses. I was even more surprised to see it

344
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 2: all developing into pretty soulless marketing methods, where companies like

345
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 2: Warcraft and others began to rip me off and talking

346
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 2: in particular, I suppose I should have trademarked and copyrighted

347
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,960
Speaker 2: all this stuff sooner, but I'm still unhappy about that

348
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,720
Speaker 2: sort of thing, which goes against all my ethical notions,

349
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 2: and so, like you know, they ripped him off because

350
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:16,679
Speaker 2: he was like, oh, we're all just sharing, and then

351
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,199
Speaker 2: someone's like yeah, sharing, and then then just say they

352
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 2: sell this shit, you know, just before it feels like

353
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:22,080
Speaker 2: like a.

354
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,719
Speaker 3: Real invention of lying situation. They're like, yeah, capitalism doesn't exist, right,

355
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,080
Speaker 3: we're all friends here, Gary geigs like, we are not friends.

356
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I am going to steal all of this because

357
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,560
Speaker 4: you allowed me to the trap that I hit undunderneath

358
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,840
Speaker 4: the contract. I didn't know the legal contract hidden within.

359
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. As for Tolkien, Gary Geygax hated Tolkien, but not

360
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,720
Speaker 2: for like because he wanted political nuance like more Cock did,

361
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,200
Speaker 2: but for boring like let's not talk about politics, asshole reasons. Also,

362
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,680
Speaker 2: I suspect most of what Gygax wrote about how D

363
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 2: and D how he doesn't even like Tolkien. He only

364
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,200
Speaker 2: threw it in there because fans insisted all of this stuff.

365
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 2: It's because he didn't want to get sued by Tolkien's estate. Yes,

366
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 2: that's my best guess. I read this like editorial he

367
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 2: wrote about Tolkien and D and D and years ago,

368
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,200
Speaker 2: and in it he wrote, I found the Ring trilogy

369
00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,399
Speaker 2: well tedious, The action dragged, and it smacked of an

370
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 2: allegory of the struggle of the little common working folk

371
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 2: of England against the threat of Hitler's Nazi evil. At

372
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,359
Speaker 2: the risk of incurring the wrath of the Professor's dedicated readers,

373
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:34,960
Speaker 2: I must say that I was so bored with his

374
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,400
Speaker 2: tones that it took me nearly three weeks to finish them,

375
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 2: which is like so many weird levels of bragging. Three

376
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 2: weeks is a perfectly reasonable length of time to read

377
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 2: very thick ass fucking books. I was gonna say, am

378
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,440
Speaker 2: I just like an anciently slow reader. No, No, you're not.

379
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 3: I mean, None of the Rings is a fucking long book.

380
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,320
Speaker 3: It's not I'm going to come out and say I

381
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 3: do not like that book. It took me forever to

382
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 3: retook me more than three weeks. Yeah, it is through

383
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 3: the Earth's Sea books though. Yeah, and the fourth one

384
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 3: with the farming that was not not very good.

385
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 2: I've only read the first two Earth Sea books.

386
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 3: I've been like third one is that the first. I

387
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 3: don't consider it going further than the third just because

388
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 3: it gets weird. But the first three is some of

389
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 3: the best fantasy books ever. Yeah, second one as well.

390
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 3: The punchline of the second book is so fantastic. It's

391
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 3: like it's one It's the first time I read something

392
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 3: where I was like, Wow, I fucking like I get

393
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 3: why fantasy exists.

394
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 2: That's cool because it's not a like it's not pure polp.

395
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,679
Speaker 2: It actually is like specifically saying stuff.

396
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 3: I also just really like the fact that there is

397
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 3: with these with fantasy novels that including a lot of

398
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 3: the Rings, just the idea of the costs of power, Yeah, totally.

399
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 3: And I know bringing up anime is probably could have

400
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 3: pissed someone off, but for my Alchemists, great thing about

401
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 3: like the the exchange that one for power, but I

402
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 3: feel like obviously does a much better thing. But also

403
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 3: the consequences of that first book are threat like they

404
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 3: just the whole time gets like, I fucking.

405
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,199
Speaker 2: Why did I do any of them?

406
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,640
Speaker 3: Like there's just a real regret.

407
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also the pain of curiosity.

408
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 3: It's fantastic.

409
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 2: I think that that whole thing, Like it's almost like

410
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: when you can tell whether someone takes just seriously as well,

411
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 2: Like the thing the copy from talking is critiquing and

412
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 2: complicating and talking about power. That's what fantasy is really

413
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 2: good at doing.

414
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 3: So a delight in character like a real, just like

415
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 3: truly getting into the guts. He got too far into

416
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 3: the guts of characters.

417
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm not going to read the similary and I'm

418
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 2: going to come out and say it. Oh, but you

419
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 2: know what I will read. Actually, I don't read ads,

420
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 2: but I do transition into them because of my desire

421
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 2: to eat food on a regular basis. And here are ads,

422
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,200
Speaker 2: and we're back. I really got to have more fun

423
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: with the ad rates. I it's it's like part of

424
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: the joy of your job for me.

425
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I just especially off to like mainlining a

426
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 3: bunch of Bostard's recently. Yeah, Robert talk about untraceable poisons.

427
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, And everyone finds their own way. I mean

428
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 2: trade actually is just kind of like I hate that

429
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 2: their ads. I'm just going to go whatever, here they are, now,

430
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: we're done.

431
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: Now let's go back to But usually I'm just like, so,

432
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: I'm too upset to make a joke, you know, like,

433
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: I know it makes sense.

434
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine cutting that aim with Gauza, like.

435
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 3: I do.

436
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 1: Try. I have a c Orchard episode coming out eventually,

437
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: and I want to hear that.

438
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that'll be fun. But like the sun but no,

439
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 2: it's it's Margaret's the best at it. I think I'm

440
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: going to say that you, thank you. This is not

441
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 2: a lot of things I can. I'm a jack of

442
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 2: all trades, but I'm a master of one thing, the

443
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: cynically addressing my own position within a complicated system. So

444
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 2: what cynically broke?

445
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 3: Oh?

446
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't. I can't transition out ads as

447
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 2: well as I can transition into them. So the thing

448
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 2: that fucking took D and D to another goddamn level

449
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 2: was and broke it into the mainstream was right wing

450
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 2: Christian backlash. Hell yeah, And what's funny about it is

451
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,719
Speaker 2: it's right wing Christian backlash against a game written by

452
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: like centrist. Honestly, my guess is center right. But I'm

453
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: not certain Christians like D and D was not made

454
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 2: by the woke mob like Jehovah's Witnesses. Yea, So Gygaks

455
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: was okay. So my best read Gygax's first wife was

456
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: far more I'm guessing was far more religious, because certainly Gygax,

457
00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 2: as soon as he gets money in power, is just

458
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: gonna do cocaine and move into a mansion and start

459
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: cheating on his wife. And then divorce her and marry

460
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 2: his secretary. Spoiler alert for a couple paragraphs down from

461
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: no classic seventies guy.

462
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely entering the eighties as well, so really

463
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 3: like very acura.

464
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, almost cliche he is. He is a fucking cliche,

465
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: That's what he is. And like, look, if someone handed

466
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: me millions of dollars, it would take my ethical background

467
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: of politics and stuff to not do a bunch of

468
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 2: cocaine and move to a mansion. So who amongst us

469
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: doesn't whatever? Okay, So this anti D and D panic

470
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 2: started in nineteen seventy nine, as best as I can tell.

471
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: On August fifteenth, nineteen seventy nine, content warning, I'm gonna

472
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: talk about suicide, a sixteen year old college kid like

473
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: boy genius style named James Dallas Egbert the Third disappeared

474
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: from Michigan in State University and Lansing. He was a

475
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 2: computer science student. He wrote a suicide note, went down

476
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 2: to the steam tunnels beneath campus and tried to ode

477
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 2: on kueludes, which is another eighties thing to do, I guess.

478
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: But he survived, but he didn't return and so he

479
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: was missing. So his family hired a private private detective,

480
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 2: and this private detective was convinced the disappearance was related

481
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 2: to D and D, that the kid had lost track

482
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 2: of what was and wasn't reality. The detective was like, yeah, yeah, no,

483
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: and this is like this is where fucking everything comes from, right,

484
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 2: because we've seen this with.

485
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 3: Like just people who do not understand fucking anything making

486
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 3: decisions about children.

487
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 2: Yep. The detective was like in his dorm room taking

488
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: photos of the pushpins on the corkboard, convinced that there's

489
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 2: like clues and hidden messages in the way that the

490
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: push pins are in the corkboard or whatever.

491
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 3: What was this person who tried to tagle on Live sixteen? Okay,

492
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 3: see the sixteen year old? The detective question was like,

493
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 3: all right, got a genius here, We've got it, like

494
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 3: we've got I guess this might be before this audiat Kaila,

495
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 3: but like this, we're going to decode the message of

496
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 3: a fucking the press sixteen year old.

497
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, who wrote a note and then yeah no and.

498
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 3: Then tried to offer them poor thing. Yeah Jesus.

499
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: And according to this guy, D and D was a

500
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: cult and that's his like theory and the whole thing

501
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: actually that thing where it's so complicated that you have

502
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,959
Speaker 2: to get invited to play in order to learn how

503
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 2: to play. That's part of how it's a cult, right,

504
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 2: And what actually happened is that the kid had gone

505
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: over to East Lansing after he survived. He took a

506
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 2: bus to New Orleans. He took a bunch of cyanide.

507
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 2: The second time he survived that he became a day

508
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: laborer for in oil fields.

509
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 3: Jesus, and this person cannot die.

510
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: No, he does eventually, but yeah, no, it took a while. Yeah,

511
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: that's he. He goes back to his family. He like

512
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: turns himself in basically, and then the news stories drop

513
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: about him. That stops being They stop caring because he's

514
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: been saved from D and D or whatever. Right, he

515
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: does successfully kill himself when he's seventeen a year later

516
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 2: with a gun.

517
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 3: Anytime, we could put some fucking government services into helping

518
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 3: this person versus the ones which to them, and then

519
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 3: we'll blame colts versus having any responsibility for anyone.

520
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, him famous nationwide because articles around about him when

521
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: he's disappeared go nationwide. Game cult is still missing. Dungeons

522
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 2: and Dragons cult may lead to missing boy like, yes,

523
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: I feel bad for the people he played with.

524
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 3: I feel bad for everybody involved other than the police.

525
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

526
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 3: Like this poor person tries to off themselves and they

527
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 3: have fucking newspaper things calling them ast a cultist. Yeah,

528
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: fucking hell, which I'm sure didn't help. Yeah, I don't

529
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 3: remain him. That made things better.

530
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so this is national news. And soon D

531
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 2: and D was swept up into the satanic panic. A

532
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: minister in nineteen eighty one was like raised that they

533
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: either wanted to or did raise one thousand dollars to

534
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: buy D and D products and then burn them. And

535
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: I just want to say that is the early level

536
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: conservatism I know. But if any evangelicals, I publish a

537
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: way more radical game than called P Number City. If

538
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: you want to buy one hundred copies at full price

539
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: to burn them, hit me up. You can buy my

540
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: product at full price. It's yours now you can do

541
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: whatever you want with it.

542
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, my very boring pr business books full of satanic shit.

543
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: You need to buy them and burn them right now.

544
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

545
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you go go back download by podcast as well,

546
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: and then down your phone.

547
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of downloads. The more down, the.

548
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 3: Cool zone media full of satanic sheet You need to

549
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: go and download everything.

550
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. In a school, a school in Utah band D

551
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: and D. In nineteen eighty one, teachers who defended it

552
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: were accused of witchcraft because that's a real thing that people.

553
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,239
Speaker 2: And also people claimed that the books screamed when they

554
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: were burned because there was literal demons in them. Oh

555
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: my god, who's the weird wacky cult snack? Now, who's

556
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 2: called the crazy beliefs here?

557
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: Yeah?

558
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, not me.

559
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 3: I'm just the one that heard the book screaming.

560
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know there's that group mad Mothers against

561
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: drunk Driving.

562
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 3: I now remembered them.

563
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: Okay, well, how do you feel about bad bothered? About

564
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: Dungeons and dragons?

565
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 3: Is that real thing?

566
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: It is real?

567
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 3: You double bothered?

568
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was Ricky Gervaissa Ship, the mother of a

569
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: kid who killed himself because teenagers who are alienated by

570
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: society sometimes killed themselves.

571
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: It sucks. It's not my faults, his mother, it's dungeons

572
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: and dragons.

573
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. She later wrote a book called The Devil's Web,

574
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: Who is stalking your children? For Satan? So is she

575
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: the one that kind of led the detective? No, it's

576
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: a different is a different mother. Oh okay, yeah.

577
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 3: It's the same shit though. It's the same bullshit, conservative nonsense.

578
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: I know, a lack of responsibility towards the people that

579
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 3: you are responsible for, finding anything else to blame tragic,

580
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: horrible things that you took part in. Yeah. Yeah, it's

581
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: the same shit being done to trans kids, same shit

582
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 3: being done to every child who's ever been part of

583
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 3: these things. Fucking disgusting. You have a child, you owe them,

584
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 3: not the other way round. Fucking assholes.

585
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: No, I I fucking agree.

586
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 3: Uh.

587
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: You ever seen the nineteen eighty two Tom Hanks movie

588
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: called Mazes and Monsters? Absolutely not?

589
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: I have not.

590
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 2: I watched it last night.

591
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: How was it?

592
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: It is based roughly on What Happened to James. It

593
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: is a trash movie. It is like, not even so bad,

594
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: it's good. It's only worth watching in this specific the

595
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: context of trying to pay attention to the satanic panic

596
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: around this. It's about a guy at college who plays

597
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: too much and he starts hallucinating and following a god,

598
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: and he tries to kill himself and his friends. I'll

599
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: try and save him, but it's two ladies. Lost his

600
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: mind forever? Well, when I was in fourth grade and

601
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,239
Speaker 2: getting into D and D. We whispered rumors that there

602
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: were older kids who played D and D for real,

603
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: D and D for blood, we called it. If you

604
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: were injured in the game, you had to hurt yourself.

605
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: If you were killed, you had to die. There is

606
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 2: no evidence that this was anything other than some shit.

607
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: Some fourth graders fucking talked about this shit.

608
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 3: This sounds like in London when they claim that people

609
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: had HIV needles that they put in the bus seats. Yeah, yeah, totally,

610
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: like in the Yeah, yeah that you meant that you

611
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 3: sit down on the bus you got HIV, the plan

612
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: being I'm not sure. Yeah, like question Mark prophet Big

613
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 3: HIV was, we had HIV the thing that was having

614
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: a lot of trouble spreading in London.

615
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and neat people really wanted to give a

616
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: needed new vectus for Yeah. And all of this moral

617
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: panic made D and D cool as shit. It was

618
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 2: up there with underage drinking and fucking and smoking cigarettes

619
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: and shit. You know, like, you want to be cool

620
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: and edgy played D and D, which is good advertising

621
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: for fun. Yeah, that is nerdy that you do hiding

622
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: in the basement with uncool friends, you know, totally. A

623
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: church in Minnesota burned a bunch of D and D books,

624
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: so sales doubled in that area. Like they literally they

625
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: were like I know they fucking yeah, hurt me. Oh

626
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: they got me. During the Satanic Panic from nineteen seventy

627
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: nine to nineteen eighty three, sales of D and D

628
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: went from two point three million dollars a year to

629
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: twenty seven million dollars a year.

630
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: That's honestly hilarious, I know, fucking funny, Like a church

631
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: burned a bunch of books and people bought them more

632
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: than ever, Like that's.

633
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: Just they must have been so mad. Yeah, yeah, Wow,

634
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: that's a big jump too. That's like I know, yeah,

635
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: it's like millions, and there's like correlation causation stuff going

636
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: on in there, right, Like it could be that it's

637
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: just an idea is time had come, but like nationwide

638
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: attention and making it cool, like yeah, you know, even

639
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: like thinking about like stranger things, right, you have this

640
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: like concept of like the nerd kids, but then by

641
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: the end of whatever such and such season, you also

642
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: have like there's still nerds, but they're like metal heads

643
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: and punks and they're kind of cool, they're like the

644
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: bad kids instead of the just relentlessly bullied kids. And

645
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: as someone who made that own trend, like I am

646
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: a living example of that. When I first would play

647
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: D and Dia, I'd have to go h over to

648
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: my friend's house in fourth grade. In order to get there,

649
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 2: I had to go through my bully's backyard where people

650
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: would like he would come out and beat me up

651
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: on my way to go play D and Jason's right.

652
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: But then by like high school, I hung out with

653
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: the bad kids and anyone who tried to beat us up, like,

654
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 2: don't try to fuck with someone wearing a Sepultura shirt.

655
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: Don't fuck with him or as friends, it's not gonna work.

656
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: You're going somewhere painful. Yeah, like Brazilian metal not made

657
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: by soft people. So I don't know whatever. D and

658
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: D became cool and I became cool. That's the important

659
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: part of the story, right, I never beat anyone up.

660
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: My friends beat people up when they tried to fuck

661
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: with us. We didn't go around beating people up anyway. Whatever.

662
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: So there were impacts on the game from the satanic

663
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: panic before Margaret started talking about her own childhood. Distributors

664
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: did drop them like JC Penny used to carry D

665
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: and D. And then they stopped and folks were like, hey,

666
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: if you remove the demons, the devils will keep publishing

667
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: them and props to Guy GaX. He was like, no, fuck, no,

668
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that. Why would I do that.

669
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: By the second edition of A D and D, under

670
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 2: a new CEO who wasn't a gamer, they dropped devils,

671
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: demons and assassins in order to try and what did

672
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 2: assassins have to do with it? They're killing people, aren't

673
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: they poise looped in with a supernatural there? I know,

674
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 2: have they ever heard of like war or like there's

675
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 2: like worse things in this world?

676
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 3: Was it one of those things where assassins had, like

677
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 3: I remember with early fantasy things that weren't great, there

678
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 3: was like a weird kind of a Middle Eastern tinge

679
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: to assassinations that it was something of the foreigners.

680
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: Like assassins. I don't think so, because they were selling

681
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 2: the shit out of Orientalism at the time. They haven't.

682
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: There's a D and D book called Oriental Adventures. Jesus Christ.

683
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: That's terrible. Yeah, no it is. Yeah, we're unfortunately, we're

684
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: going to talk a little bit about the misogyny baked

685
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 2: in and all like kind of also touch in on

686
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: all the orientalism and shit picked, and when we get

687
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: near the end, we'll talk about all the work that

688
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: people have done to try and undo all of the

689
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: shit that's baked into it. But Oriental adventures part of

690
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: Dandy from the start. In fact, the first woman game

691
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: designer was named Gene Wells, who joined in nineteen seventy nine.

692
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: At this point, about ten percent of the D and

693
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 2: D players in the country are women, which is way

694
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: the fuck up from the point five percent of war gamers.

695
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 2: Still not super high. Just to spoil my own script,

696
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: these days, it's fifty three percent men who played D

697
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: and D as of twenty twenty. What happened to Jean

698
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 2: Wells is not great. She did a bunch of work

699
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: on different adventures and then she wrote her own. It

700
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 2: was called The Palace of the Silver Princess. One of

701
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: the pieces art of art in it was like too

702
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: sexual or something, even though other TSR art from the

703
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 2: same time was at least as horny. The whole thing

704
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 2: was recalled like either a day or three days, depending

705
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 2: on your source. After it was published, They published this

706
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: adventure and then someone was like, oh, I don't know

707
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: about this, and then they recalled it and like buried

708
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: it in a landfill, and then it was rewritten by

709
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: a man. No one would ever green light Jean's ideas anymore,

710
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 2: and she wounded up basically being a secretary, so she quit.

711
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: The surviving copies of her adventure are some of the

712
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 2: most expensive collectible pieces in D and D because there's

713
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 2: some of the rarest Do you think that she lived

714
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 2: long enough to see that? Yeah, I've read some interviews

715
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 2: with her from I Actually I'm unsure one way or

716
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 2: the other whether she's still alive, but I've read like

717
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 2: interviews from the twenty first century with her.

718
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: Okay, for this part of it, maybe that's I mean,

719
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: that's I hate that she had to go through that,

720
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm glad that she's at least getting some

721
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: type of recognition.

722
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, Yeah, people are like, I mean, it's funny too,

723
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: because though because it's just like, oh, this is rare

724
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: and has like the secret horny picture in it, which

725
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: is a naked woman tied up by her hair being

726
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: attacked by men. It was actually less sexual than like

727
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: the cover of like another one that was like a

728
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: woman being sacrificed naked on a fucking altar and shit,

729
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 2: you know, like but they're like, oh, this is too

730
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: s and M. And I'm a little bit like, oh

731
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: a girl wrote this. You're mad that a fucking girl

732
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 2: wrote something. Well, you said it was written by a man.

733
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: I'm sure it defined yeah, once it was rewritten by man. Yeah, totally.

734
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 2: They took out the offending pictures and changed it up

735
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 2: a little bit, and it sure didn't help the misogyny

736
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 2: culture at the office. That guy GaX, who was one

737
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: of the three leaders of the company in the early days,

738
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 2: it is just a misogynist, sorry, a biological determinist as

739
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: he puts it.

740
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 3: Oh that's better.

741
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to hear what he said? Is that

742
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: a phrase that it's just like a thing? Am I

743
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 1: just a little bit out of the loop.

744
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 3: Whenever someone has a contrived term I know this from

745
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 3: Silicon Valley like that, it just means they're racist or sexist.

746
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 3: Like that's it.

747
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 5: You don't need to even work out what it means,

748
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,959
Speaker 5: just to be so I don't like woman or people

749
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 5: who want know why. Oh, but I'm going to give

750
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 5: the quote about it, and why if anyone cuts that

751
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 5: and uses that against me, I will kill you.

752
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, because his whole thing, right is he's like, I'm

753
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: a simulationist. I want everything to be as realistic as

754
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: possible in my game with Fireballs. As late as two

755
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 2: thousand and four, he said, quote as I have often said,

756
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: I am a biological determinist, and there is no question

757
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: that male and female brains are different. It is apparent

758
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: to me that by and large, females do not derive

759
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: the same inner satisfaction from playing games as a hobby

760
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: that males do. It isn't that females can't play games, well,

761
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 2: it's just that it is not a compelling activity to

762
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 2: them as is in the case for males. Ah, fuck

763
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 2: this guy.

764
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 3: I know.

765
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: Perfect, and I would guess and I will use the

766
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 2: fact that now D and D's almost fifty percent women

767
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 2: that the reason women didn't enjoy playing D and D

768
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: to the same degree is that the games were very

769
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: gygax overwhelmingly male, and men acted badly. During those games.

770
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: Women would write into the game's magazine called The Dragon

771
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: later Dragon. They would write and tell stories about how

772
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 2: other players in the DM were routinely sexist to them.

773
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 2: Early versions of the game, instead of having the fighter

774
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 2: had the fighting man and women's strength score. Once they

775
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 2: finally added rules, they were like, well, I guess you

776
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: could play a woman, and so they added some rules

777
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: in case you wanted to play a woman. Don't worry,

778
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: they got you covered. Women's strength score was capped four

779
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: points lower than men's. Oh and most offensive of all,

780
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: because you can vaguely, vaguely be like, I guess on

781
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 2: average the average testosterum bodied person.

782
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 3: Whatever.

783
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: But it's a fantasy game. Who fucking cares. Also, the

784
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: other thing they did is they replaced one of the

785
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: ability scores in Dungeons Dragons's careerisma for boys. Boys can

786
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: have charisma and girls have beauty instead, so.

787
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 3: Women are only perceived they are not interacted with.

788
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,720
Speaker 2: It was bad, that's terrible.

789
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe it's good that a lot of these guys

790
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 3: didn't meet women.

791
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: I met a woman, they would think differently.

792
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: Maybe it's because they had never met a woman that they.

793
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, I mean he's probably not guys, because we

794
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,439
Speaker 2: know because he's higher women.

795
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 3: Often they should have met women in a more violent sense.

796
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 3: The woman should have smacked them. Yeah, so I'm just thinking.

797
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 3: I grew up, I grew very close to my sister.

798
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 3: I'm just imagining telling her she did not have charisma. Yeah,

799
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 3: she would say to me in response to.

800
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, no personality, just a face. Yeah yeah, did

801
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 2: we already do a second ad? Break?

802
00:41:59,800 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: Well?

803
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 2: Who does have charisma? Here's ads of charisma? Did they

804
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 2: roll your will to defend yourself? What the young kids

805
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 2: call it RIZ?

806
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 3: Now?

807
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: Well, really is that what RIZ stands for? This makes

808
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: so much sense. It's for charisma. Jez, Well, here's I

809
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 2: can't even say that with a straight face. So here's

810
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: some ads and we're back. So by nineteen eighty two,

811
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: Dungeons Tsr. Rather was the nation's sixth fastest growing privately

812
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: held company in the country. It's in all the glossy

813
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: business matters wild yeah, despite none of their nine top

814
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 2: level managers having any prior business experience. But don't worry,

815
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 2: they all did shit. That's as fucked up as any

816
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: NBA great well off all of them did, but several

817
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: of them certainly did. Former occupations of the people in

818
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 2: charge were like biologists and plumber and the fuckery, oh

819
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 2: my god, the business fuckery. Game designers worked against impossible

820
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 2: odds to make the game work because the business of

821
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: it was trying to make it not. Everyone in charge

822
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 2: of TSR did weird nepotistic shit and made horrible decisions

823
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: with money. Soon enough, writers got cut out of royalties

824
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 2: for what they had made, and former employees were constantly

825
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 2: being threatened with lawsuits for taking their ideas elsewhere. This

826
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 2: isn't really an episode about the rise and fall of

827
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: TSR Wizards of the Coast, but here are some of

828
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 2: the highlights. They changed the name to AD and D

829
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 2: Advanced Ungs and Dragons to try and cut that guy

830
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: out of royalties. Right then, Okay, this one's actually kind

831
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 2: of fun. They blew a whole bunch of corporate money

832
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: raising a shipwreck out of Geneva Lake for no discernible reason. Cool.

833
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 3: No, that's cool. I I don't fucking need a reason.

834
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 3: Bring the ship out. I know the ghosts.

835
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. They kept the boiler from the ship like behind

836
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 2: the building for a while and then like sold it

837
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 2: for scrap. Gary Geygax moved out to la to try

838
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 2: and sell TSR's properties to Hollywood. He rented out a

839
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 2: mansion and he would have like hot tub parties with

840
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 2: sex workers in cocaine and shit. Not inherently bad except

841
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: those funded by paying writer's minimum wage and cutting their

842
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 2: fucking royalties. Although I think he was more pro worker

843
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: than everyone else involved. That's grim good. He like at

844
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 2: some point he tried to get workers like shares in

845
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: the company. Oh, and it didn't happen. It was a

846
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: complete jackass. I suppose I know he see, he's like

847
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: an interesting jackass. He's like a jackass. I'd have a

848
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: beer with, you know, unless he thinks my womanly brain

849
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 2: can't handle it, or I suppose unless he thinks that

850
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 2: I'm a woke mob.

851
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 3: Just won't let you speak, yeah, just to be looked at.

852
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's how he's being trans affirming as he's like, no, no,

853
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: I changed your I changed your character sheet, says female.

854
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: Now that's good though, Like you can change your character

855
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 3: sheet too, but I will obey the rules.

856
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: I do love. There's this thing that happens to me

857
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: sometimes in nerd spaces that I kind of appreciate, where

858
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: I'll be like hanging out with some like random like

859
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: hanging out with some random dude, and then he'll figure

860
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 2: out that I'm trans and he'll immediately switched like kind

861
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 2: of maladying me, and I'm like, oh, that's kind of

862
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: sweet at all. It comes from a good place, exactly

863
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 2: exactly me, Like.

864
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 3: On some level I figured to some extent, it's almost

865
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 3: like ship, did I walk into this acting roy and

866
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 3: you have no look, if you haven't met many transpatople,

867
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 3: perhaps it's just like I don't fucking do it a

868
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 3: little different.

869
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally no, We're a monolith. That's why I

870
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 2: play in a noise band and I'm a computer programmer

871
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 2: and only talk about I don't know howse trans people do.

872
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: I did the most trans thing I've ever done. When

873
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 2: people come over my house, I show them I built.

874
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 2: I built a gaming computer that has like pink fans

875
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 2: inside it that glue.

876
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 3: Yes, that's a good ship.

877
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: That's pretty Yeah, I'm really proudous, some nerdy ass ship, Margaret.

878
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hadn't built a fucking computer since I was

879
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 2: in high school. But I was like, I really wanted

880
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: to play boulders Gate three, which in the end I

881
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 2: didn't like very much. But that's completely besides the point. Okay,

882
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 2: So anyway, let's see what else. So he's like he

883
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: divorces his wife on not good terms, and he marries

884
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: a secret harry, which you know, maybe they're in love

885
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: and shit, and I don't know. It just looks fucking

886
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 2: cheesy eighties yuppie bullshit. There's two brothers that are in

887
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: charge alongside of him, and they buy a relative's needle

888
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: point business to sell needle point patterns that say shit

889
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: like dragon power. And they're convinced that a fifth of

890
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: the company's revenue is going to come from this. They

891
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 2: the Etsy or something. No, I'm what do you mean

892
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: by that?

893
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 3: I'm a bit confused.

894
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 2: So they that they bought a needle point company.

895
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 3: A needle point company.

896
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there was like I think they're like sisters

897
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:40,919
Speaker 2: or cousins or something. We're like, oh, we do needle point.

898
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 2: And someone's like, I'm gonna give you all so much

899
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: money in order to sell needle point patterns. This was

900
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 2: going to be dragon power. And who was who made

901
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 2: this decision to two brothers who are in charge of

902
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 2: this company. I haven't introduced. They're the Bloom Brothers, and

903
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 2: I don't know enough about them, but they keep coming

904
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 2: up as villains and all the histories of it, but

905
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: it's all there's so much corporate fuckery that gets them

906
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: put in charge for a while. It's like them too,

907
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 2: and guy GaX for a while. Wow, And this is

908
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: just transparently nepotism. No one, their audience is not buying

909
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: needle point patterns. Let's say dragon Power. They would grow

910
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 2: too large and then layoff workers again and again as

911
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: they made terrible business decisions. The Dragonlance novel so the

912
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,240
Speaker 2: mid eighties floated the company for years, but the authors

913
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: are basically paid fuck call and they pretty much have

914
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 2: delve tsar to write books elsewhere. And then in nineteen

915
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: eighty five, Gary Geygax was forced out of the company

916
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 2: by a hostile takeover by a non gamer woman sorry

917
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: femail named Lorraine Williams dun dun dum, a woman I know.

918
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 2: And here's where all the histories get really annoying, because

919
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 2: like everyone's like mostly people are like Gygax is amazing.

920
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: Lorrain is the one who destroyed the company, and it's like, no,

921
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 2: everyone involved sucked, and the fact that Lorraine was a

922
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: woman is unrelated. And she did suck, and so did

923
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: Gary at least as business people whatever. Almost everyone did

924
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 2: prefer working under her, but she wasn't much better. Lots

925
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 2: of ink has been spilled, defaming her to the point

926
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 2: where it just reads like misogyny. She was corrupt and incompetent,

927
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 2: so were the people who came before her. The fun

928
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 2: part of her story is that her family owned the

929
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 2: rights to Buck Rogers. This is where the story just

930
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 2: goes off the rails. Okay, buck Rogers is a wildly

931
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 2: irrelevant comic book hero from the nineteen twenties that had

932
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 2: a failed recent TV run recent at this point nine

933
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 2: also a famous TV run though, Yeah, I like, I

934
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 2: know all I know about Buck Rogers some old timey shit.

935
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah it was that was That was a TV show.

936
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 3: No true, listen, I was just about to say, anyone

937
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 3: else hear. This is if the readers can, like Jesus

938
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 3: fucking Grist cost work almost done TV show.

939
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: That's a TV show, And at this point when she's

940
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 2: in charge mid eighties, he is irrelevant. No one wants

941
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: this property. Her family owns the property, the rights, so

942
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 2: she keeps more or less bankrupting TSR to try and

943
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: push buck Rogers stuff. They make game after game that

944
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: won't sell. Everyone in I know, I know, and her

945
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 2: priorities are her family's bullshit.

946
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 3: This is actually nepotism sounding. I'm sorry, you know, my

947
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 3: family's assets. Most That's what it is, and I think

948
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 3: everyone who's like working on it hates it. At one point,

949
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 3: the salesperson at a big trade show is like up

950
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 3: there like pitching the new buck Rogers RPG after like

951
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 3: the last one doesn't sell, and he says, We'll keep

952
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 3: making it until you buy it. It's a classic way

953
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 3: to appeal to your audience, you know what they say, Uh,

954
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 3: Supply and demand is just forcing supply on people as

955
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 3: much as humanly possible until they accept it.

956
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: So one thing that they did that was going really

957
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 2: well is they started working with DC Comics, and they

958
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 2: started selling their properties to DC Comics, and you started

959
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 2: getting these ad and d fucking comic books that were

960
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: like mid list but like successful and profitable. They were

961
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 2: compared with Aquaman and Wonder Woman at terms of how

962
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 2: popular they were, which is funny to me because now

963
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 2: Wonder Woman's a big fucking deal, right, I mean, Wonder

964
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 2: Woman was a big deal then as well, seventies eighties

965
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: so apparently less so. Apparently they were all around the

966
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 2: like in the top one hundred best selling comics, but

967
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 2: kind of just hanging out around near one hundred, which

968
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 2: was fine. It was profitable. DC Comics made some money.

969
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 2: TSR made some money, and they did a bunch of comics.

970
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: But Lorraine was like, what about buck Rogers. Don't you

971
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 2: all want to do Buck Rogers? And they were like, no,

972
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 2: that's some corny old shit. We do not care at

973
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: all about Buck Rogers. She really tried.

974
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 3: It was a Buck Rogers TV show from uh nineteen

975
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 3: seventy nine through ninety ninety one. Oh that's a time,

976
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 3: wrote little Buck Rogers histories in the twenty fifth century.

977
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, better than I thought. But DC Comics wouldn't fucking

978
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: touch it. And so instead of doing something that would

979
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 2: be intelligent, like saying, oh, well we tried, Lorraine ran

980
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 2: the company like her personal fiefdom, as had the previous owners. People.

981
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 2: People don't really get that we don't live in a

982
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 2: democracy because the primary economic model is authoritarian, hierarchical corporate structures.

983
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 2: But she decided to compete with DC Comics. That's what

984
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 2: she would do in order to get buck Rogers comics out.

985
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 2: So she decided to compete with the people who published

986
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 2: a ton of their comics and had rights to all

987
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 2: their most popular properties. But you said that they were

988
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 2: working with TC Comics. I know it wasn't very smart. Yeah,

989
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,879
Speaker 2: So in nineteen eighty nine, TSR went back to where

990
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 2: It's dream goes to die, Los Angeles, this time to

991
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 2: make buck Rogers comics under the name TSR. West. Lorraine's

992
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 2: brother was running it. Naturally nice, DC, for completely predictable reasons,

993
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 2: got mad about this. So TSR. West was like, oh, no,

994
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 2: we are not making comic books. Their comic modules, and

995
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 2: a module is basically an adventure in D and D

996
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 2: talk like at ice self contained thing. And so what

997
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 2: they did in order to make them legally distinct from

998
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 2: comic books was throwing tiny amounts of RPG content at

999
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 2: the end of any given comic book. And they didn't

1000
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 2: just do buck Rogers, but they did all they didn't

1001
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 2: do any of their frontless shit is all their backless shit,

1002
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 2: because all their frontless shits with DC. But now they're

1003
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 2: not comic books. They're not sold by a comic book distributor.

1004
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 2: They're distributed I think by Random House, and so they're

1005
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 2: in the book section of the store and they're not

1006
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 2: in comic book stores. They're comic books. No one fucking

1007
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 2: buys them because they're in the wrong. They're not. It's

1008
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: just a mess. It's a nightmare. And DC was like, yeah,

1009
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 2: we're gonna stop publishing y'all's shit. You're right, we can't

1010
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 2: sue you because you call them comic modules. We can

1011
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 2: just drop all your shit and you can't publish it

1012
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: because we have all the rights. So they did. So, Yeah,

1013
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: Lorrain saved the company from being run into the ground

1014
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 2: by Guygax and co. And then ran it into the

1015
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 2: ground herself because of the book rogers. Yes, yeah, yeah,

1016
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: And there's like some other shit, and they like keep

1017
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 2: trying to go become basically like a book publisher, and

1018
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 2: they drive away all their like most fiction publisher because

1019
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 2: for a while fiction is just covering the cost of

1020
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:21,720
Speaker 2: everything else, and they're just just wildly incompetent at running

1021
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 2: this thing, and they drive away all the creatives and

1022
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 2: they just treat everyone like shit. So eventually it was

1023
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,760
Speaker 2: bought by the makers of Magic the Gathering, a company

1024
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: called Wizards of the Coast in nineteen ninety seven. Wizards

1025
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 2: of the Coast. I'm not trying to like sing their praises,

1026
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 2: but they revitalized Dungeons and Dragons. They put out additions

1027
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 2: where the rules actually were consistent in the and they book,

1028
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and they they made it the wildly successful

1029
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 2: game it is now. They are still full of fuckery,

1030
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 2: But this isn't a show about fuckery. It's a show

1031
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:00,320
Speaker 2: about cool people did cool stuff. And an incredible amount

1032
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 2: of work has been done across the field, especially by

1033
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: this upstart publisher, pays O Games that I'm not really

1034
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: talking about anywhere in here, but they publish a game

1035
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: called Pathfinder that's a split from Dungeons and Dragons. An

1036
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 2: incredible amount of work has been done to make tabletop

1037
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 2: role playing games more accessible to a wider audience, not

1038
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 2: by dumbing down the games or making them less interesting,

1039
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: just going through systematically and rooting out the misogyny and

1040
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 2: racism that have been baked into them. And a couple

1041
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 2: of years ago, I had the pleasure to write a

1042
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 2: canon Magic the Gathering story in which I got to

1043
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 2: make one of the characters canonically gay and another I

1044
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 2: added a trans character to the lore of Magic the

1045
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 2: Gathering because and that was her. Wizards of the Coast.

1046
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 2: Giant evil companies run the world, but the weird thing

1047
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 2: that you run across all the time, especially these days,

1048
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 2: is that evil companies are worked for and at by

1049
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 2: people like you and I, not us. We don't work

1050
00:56:58,520 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 2: for a giant evil company obviously.

1051
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 3: No, that's so good. I love them.

1052
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And many of the people who work at these

1053
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 2: companies fucking hate capitalism and racism and misogyny and all

1054
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 2: that shit and try to do what they can to

1055
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 2: alleviate the worst of the evils they run across. And

1056
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 2: so the people in the role playing game industry, and

1057
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:19,919
Speaker 2: there's like all these fights about it where these people

1058
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: are like, no, Gygax did nothing wrong, and women are weaker,

1059
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 2: and you know, probably running around measuring the skulls of

1060
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 2: different ethnicities. But by and large, it is it's changing.

1061
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 2: And I didn't even get into it how much this

1062
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 2: shit changed everything else about how everything just how much

1063
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 2: D and D in role playing suffuse through culture, video games,

1064
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 2: everything and like change the way that we see creativity.

1065
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 2: But that's my story of the history of Dungeons and Dragons.

1066
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 2: The end of the story.

1067
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 3: Think what we've learned here, m hmm is that women

1068
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 3: do not have charisma.

1069
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is Ed's takeaway, just takeaway is that I would.

1070
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 3: Say exactly the kind of guy who I thought did

1071
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 3: invented dungeons and dragons. Oh yeah, had you asked me

1072
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 3: to come up with who did it would come up? Yeah,

1073
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 3: I would have come up with some Hitchhiker's guide the

1074
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 3: galaxy sounding ass guy. Yeah, assume he had weird proclivities

1075
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 3: of some sort, and then assumed that he got into

1076
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 3: weird labor disputes. They're kind of close story.

1077
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah no. And then when you think about the people

1078
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 2: who make it. I mean, he obviously ran the first

1079
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 2: dandie game, right, but the people that they ended up hiring,

1080
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 2: you get all of these people who like it's kind

1081
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 2: of like a nonprofit job where people work at nonprofit

1082
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 2: jobs because they care and then they get treated by

1083
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 2: shit like shit by the nonprofit. Yeah, you know, and

1084
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 2: the people who run the nonprofit of horrifying Yeah. TSR

1085
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 2: was people's dream because it was the fucking magic factory,

1086
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 2: you know, and they took advantage of that, and sometimes consciously,

1087
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 2: sometimes unconsciously, and that sucks. But people made incredible stuff,

1088
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 2: much like you make an incredible podcast called Better Offline

1089
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 2: that people can listen to.

1090
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 3: Oh sorry, I meant to plug stuff, So yeah, Better

1091
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 3: offline dot com. You can FuMB a newsletter. Please subscribe

1092
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 3: to my newsletter. It's very lonely, please read it. Please

1093
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 3: listen to my podcast. Download every episode. Go to Better

1094
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 3: offline dot com click the link. Go to your podcast thing.

1095
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 3: Click every single download button. Listen to every episode in fact,

1096
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 3: go and do that.

1097
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 2: Then do it again.

1098
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 3: Leave it on all day.

1099
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 2: H don't work.

1100
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 3: Listen to podcasts now money now, please.

1101
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 2: Get more the sales pitch and then oh, oh my god,

1102
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 2: I didn't even get into there's all this stuff baked

1103
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 2: into the problem of running role playing games where once

1104
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 2: you buy the game, you don't need anything else, and

1105
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 2: so that they like run out of like when I'm like, oh,

1106
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 2: they fucked it up with comics. It's also like market saturation,

1107
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 2: right because like people whatever.

1108
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 3: I imaginations are so dangerous.

1109
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 2: I know. Well, and that's the thing is, it's like

1110
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 2: people are trying to figure out how to make this

1111
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: game work within this economic system, and like everything else

1112
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 2: we do, it struggles against the economic system we live in.

1113
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 2: But you know, that's the episode. I also have a

1114
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 2: newsletter you should subscribe to both. Mine is on substack.

1115
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 2: You just search Margaret Kiljoy substack and Saran you got anything,

1116
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 2: you do anything with your life.

1117
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 1: Occasionally I'm on it could happen here on cool Zone Media.

1118
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: Uh listen if you want to. I do a lot

1119
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 1: of episodes about Palestine recent so go go educate yourself

1120
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: and talk to your friends.

1121
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, and we'll be back next week with more

1122
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 2: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, probably with fewer assholes

1123
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 2: at the center of the story. But who knows, because

1124
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 2: I don't even know Whe'm gon to cover next week.

1125
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 2: HIE Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production

1126
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 2: of cool Zone Media.

1127
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website

1128
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1129
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.