WEBVTT - The Cato institute Guns, and the Left 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:07.520 You should never say how I mistook one party can 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:10.280 send those on a recording, rubb it. It's okay. It's 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:14.480 with a president, so it can't be there. Um, you 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:19.319 shouldn't have done. That's Jimmy Corton. Dude. Well he's never recovered, man. Yeah, 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:21.000 you can see it in his eyes when he tried 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.200 to rebuild those houses. Welcome to It could happen here 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.000 the podcast where one of us committed a crime against 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:34.400 Jimmy Carter, former President of the United States. Um, that 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:36.360 might actually get us in trouble with the Secret Service. 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:38.720 But you know what it's happening. It's happening James. Well, 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:41.080 they're gonna have to figure out which one it was. Yes, 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.839 and that of course second voice, James Stout, who might 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.879 wind up in Guantanamo for this because he's not a 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:53.040 US citizen. But I feel pretty safe, and I feel 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.680 like our guest for today is pretty safe. And I 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:01.960 would like to introduce Stephen Manicelli. Stephen, you work for 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.600 and are an editor at Protein Magazine. You've written for 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.400 The Rolling Stone, You've written for a bunch of People, 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:13.560 Dallas Voice, a number of different um news websites, magazines, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:16.360 and you have been spending a big chunk of the 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:20.160 last year or so in the streets and Dallas reporting 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:24.679 on the escalating series of well, hopefully not escalating. I 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.560 guess time will tell on that. But the series of 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:31.360 right wing UM, I don't even want to I don't 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:33.240 want to dignify them by calling them protests, but like 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:38.319 right wing organized attempts to intimidate UH and spark violence 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.520 at LGBT events in the DFW area, and some of 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:46.440 the left wing protest counter against that, which has involved 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.000 groups like the elm Fork John Brown Gun Club, who 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.120 we've had on the show a few times, and has 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:56.680 involved groups of armed leftists kind of UM in opposition 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:00.320 to groups of armed right wingers UM. Now, Stephen, the 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.440 specific reason we're talking today is you were just the 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.400 other day part of a panel put on by the 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:11.040 Cato Institute, which is a libertarian think tank, titled Domestic 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.840 Extremism and Political Violence the Threat to Liberty UM. Your 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:19.480 fellow panelists were Mike German. Mike is a former FBI 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:23.320 agent who went undercover against the far right UM and 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.000 now works for the Brennan Center, and Christopher Wiles, who 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.040 is a professor of English and a director of American 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.640 Studies at the University of Connecticut and wrote the u 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.720 s Anti Fascism Reader. Um. Now, this was interesting for 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.000 a number of reasons. Kind of in the lead up 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.200 to this event, the Kata Institute published a graphic that 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.360 showed a number of domestic armed organizations. Um. And so 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.400 in the same graphic you had groups like the Proud 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.040 Boys and Patriot Front, as well as groups like Yellow 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.880 Peril Tactical and the Elm Fork, John Brown Gun Club 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.840 and the Socialist Rifle Association. Prior to the event, this 0:02:56.000 --> 0:03:01.000 sparked a bit of frustration the left and some people 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.720 suspecting that this was going to be kind of geared 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:08.880 towards attacking left wing armed groups and smearing them, you know, 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.800 as violent extremists in the same way that the Proud 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.360 Boys are. Uh, that is not what happened. Um, And 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:16.480 I'm gonna open the floor up to you, Stephen, thank 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.920 you for being on the show. Hey, thanks for having me. 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:21.519 And I'm glad that this is not sort of a 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:25.320 critics criticism session that I'm gonna be sitting with y'all on. 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.800 In terms of yeah, my participation with a hestitate to 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.239 even use the word libertarian because of the historical definition 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:38.400 of the term. But you know, conservative libertarian whatever, big 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.400 L versus small L. I don't. Yeah, we could call 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.280 them a right libertarian think to their rough bodies, right 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.120 like literally founded by rough body. Yeah, they love them 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:52.800 some Rothbard. Um didn't they like excommunicate him or something, 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.840 though at some point I couldn't. I don't. I'm not 0:03:55.960 --> 0:04:01.080 deep on the lower One thing, if doing my favorite 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:03.360 meme with the two hands meeting in the middle middle 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:13.320 left libertarians and right libertarians have excommunicating members of Murray 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:17.960 Rothbart is on an io exile Murray Rothbart and Mary 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.480 Books and United and cancelation. So yeah, I guess I'm 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.279 not being canceled, which is good. Um. And so yeah, 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.880 they had reached out to me in September about being 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.919 on this panel, and they had mentioned, um, the other guests, 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:37.599 and frankly, I was intrigued because you know, if people 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.560 want to pay attention to the growing threat of fascism, 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.200 I think that's pretty neat. And it seemed like an 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.640 opportunity to do the thing that Glenn Greenwald claims that 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.080 he does when he goes on Tucker Carlson, which is 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:53.480 like reaching out to an audience that doesn't already agree 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:57.880 with the things that I think UM, because he just 0:04:57.920 --> 0:04:59.919 goes on because their pals and they already all agree. 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:04.080 So UM, I digress. I thought it was maybe an 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.680 interesting forum, and and I was really interested to hear 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.320 UM from the other panelists, in particular UM, because I 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.479 had looked at what Mike German had written after his 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.720 service in UM the FBI and as well as the 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.880 author of the Anti Fascist Handbook, and I thought, well, 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.200 if if Kato has invited all three of us, it's 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.359 it's not gonna go too off the rails in terms 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.919 of UM, you know, sort of the false equivalency problems, 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.080 or it just becoming a session to bash on groups 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.720 that aren't really the part of the problem. Interestingly enough, 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.839 the primary amount of bashing that went on was Mike German, 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:48.320 former f by FBiH, repeatedly viciously criticizing the police and 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:52.320 the FBI for their complicity with far right street movements. Yeah, 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.240 Mike's been pretty consistent. I spoken this for like a 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.559 couple of years, and I'm sure you people are probably 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.279 aware of his presence by now, but he's been pretty 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:04.080 consistent on bashing defense for failing to act on white 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.520 supremacy for decades, and it's very It's there's a number 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:09.839 of reasons this is interesting that we'll we'll be getting 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:13.159 back into. But I really do recommend people take a 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.240 listen to this conversation between y'all. Among other things, there's 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:19.760 there's some good history in there. We'll talk about a 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.080 couple of things that got introduced that I don't a 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.400 hundred percent agree with. That there's some good history in there, 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.240 and I think more to the point, you get um 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.000 a lot of updates from your reporting in Dallas and 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:31.720 a lot of kind of summaries of that which I 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.400 find very valuable and think will be valuable to people 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.000 who have maybe been following it less. And then also 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.680 it's really interesting to get Mike's perspective as someone he 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.039 was in it was late eighties, early nineties, he was 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.040 doing a lot of undercover stuff in the West Coast 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:49.080 and neo Nazi movements, UM, and so hearing him discuss 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:53.279 the way in which the FBI's programs targeted at the 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.120 far right work and don't work was really interesting to me. 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.800 Oh absolutely, that was the sort of the side of 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:05.840 the story that I knew the least about UM. Christopher Viles, 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.960 the professor, the guy who wrote the handbook. UM. You know, 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.280 I think he provided a very important set of historical 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.040 information that kind of helped iron out some of the 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.280 issues in terms of the framing craps and some of 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.640 the inconsistencies which I think we can dive into a 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:25.640 little bit, or rather inaccuracies that kind of got slipped 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.320 by UM and we weren't really able to address in 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:32.520 the course of the conversation. But hearing him just put 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.360 it so bluntly kind of took the wind out of 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:37.920 me in a good way where I was like, I 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:42.160 don't I don't have anything else to add here, no notes, UM, 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:46.280 because he really made the point that yes, some of 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.960 these organizations were candon glove with police officers at the 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.000 local level, even at the federal level. He's witnessed it. 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.360 He has a number of experiences that he cited where 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:00.560 the FBI is basically saying, uh, do not talk about 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.600 your case is involving white supremacists and these similar type 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.840 of groups. Because there are people in the agency who 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:12.080 are sympathetic UM. And I think that's kind of why 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:16.680 I ended up on the panel because in part the 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.040 story that I've been covering around here with this harassment 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.200 campaign over the past few months of lgbt Q groups 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:27.239 and events. Part of the story is that policing has 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.680 not really done anything to prevent uh you know, this 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:38.080 incitement and harassment from continuing and occasionally turning violent. Not 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.320 in the sense of weapons being used other than bear 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:45.240 me so far, but in the sense the physical violence 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:49.640 and uh you know, slurs and violent threats being hurled 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.760 at people. Um so, I I think that Mike's points 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.480 for really timely and well said, and frankly, he's the 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.960 kind of person that they needed to come from, because 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.400 as otherwise, they just kind of get smacked away as 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:08.640 a leftist talking point by people who probably have some 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:13.480 internal biases or prejudices, prejudices that prevent them from engaging 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.720 with it when it comes from the wrong person in 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:19.680 the wrong way. And there were a number of interesting 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.640 kind of discussions happening. One thing that I was happy 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.600 about is that, well, the initial framing, I think there 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.200 was a lot of fear that all of these left 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.160 wing groups are going to get lumped in with groups 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.600 that have, to put it bluntly, tried to overthrow democracy. 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.400 Um right, we should point out that that's how the 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:42.400 FBI does do it, right, like they for instance, the 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.760 group white supremacists with like black identity groups, is racial 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.480 identity extremists or statistics that way like that, That's that's 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:51.800 how the FEDS see this. But yeah, they didn't, which 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.679 is which is good. It's like a form of obfuscation 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.520 to do so. And um, you know, why would they 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.960 do that. Well, maybe there's a few reasons they might 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:06.240 do that, especially if you ask someone like Mike. Um. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.640 And you know, it's such a blind spot for obvious 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:14.800 the ideological reasons for so many people involved. Yeah, and 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:17.280 it's it's Um. It was interesting because there was this 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.560 bit in the middle of it where Mike, you know, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.480 being a former FED, walked through kind of like, well, 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:26.800 it makes sense to me given the fact that law 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.880 enforcement is is not able to be trusted in a 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.839 lot of instances and often is working hand in glove 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:37.199 with these far right groups that want to harm marginalize people, 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.760 that they would seek to arm themselves. Um. And that 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:44.880 prompted from the the fellow who was actually um kind 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:49.800 of the organizing the the event, Patrick Eddington, who's a 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.400 senior fellow at the Cato Institute him to point out, 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.120 and he was I would have to say broadly fair um, 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:01.480 And generally he seemed a little bit kind of um uh. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.720 He he had this attitude you you get sometimes around 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:06.480 libertarians where he was like, there was a moment where 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.240 he was like, well, I'm glad some on the left 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:12.600 to finally started accepting the Second Amendments and stuff like that. Um. 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.680 But but he had a he had a moment where 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:20.600 he expressed a concern, um, which was his fear about 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.959 the possibility that if you keep having these events, at 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.760 some point you're going to have two groups of people 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:31.160 who are armed shoot at each other. Um, which is 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.680 we have We've been right up to that line. You 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.040 have had exchanges of fire, just thinking. In Portland, you 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.160 had a moment where a single right wing individual with 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.240 a handgun fired into a group of people, thankfully didn't 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.560 hit any Two people in the anti fascist side fired 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.840 back and forced him to flee. Um. You had a 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:53.720 moment earlier this year in Portland where a right winger 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.839 shot into a group of unarmed people doing traffic security, 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:03.080 killed a sixty one year old woman, wounded I think 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.520 five other people, and then was shot and stopped by 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:12.120 a leftist. Um, you obviously had um a proud boy, 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.679 while a member of Patriot Prayer shot and killed during 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:18.199 an altercation, but not an exchange of fire. The only 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.000 person who fired was the person who killed that that individual. 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:25.120 So none of those are quite two groups of people 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:30.000 with guns exchanging fire, you know, in a sustained way. Um, 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.760 none of those even entirely approached kind of what happened 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.960 at like Greensville. But they're all on that spectrum. And 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.600 and while I think this guy there's a degree to 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.640 which he's kind of spooked at seeing leftists with guns, 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:43.840 I do think that that's a reasonable thing to be 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.800 concerned with, because when and if we hit that point, 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.480 it's going to be an inflection moment for I think 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:54.720 the entire country. Right right, I think the reality is 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.840 that most normal people, whatever you want to use the 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.559 word to describe them, people aren't brain poisoned and plugged 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.240 into the Internet and about all these things or or 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.400 having to deal with them and are affected by them 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.679 in real life. They might see these groups and just 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.720 cast them all under the same umbrella. You know, there's 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.840 a good me I chuckled at that came out afterwards, 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.400 where it had had the slide showing on all of 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:23.040 the groups the right when groups and the left and 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.600 groups sort of armed groups in you know, the United States, 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.360 and then replacing them all with just domestic cleaning products. Like, yes, 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.760 they all have something in common. They have weapons, and 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:39.360 they're armed to some degree, but beyond that, they all 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:43.520 have distinctions and we shouldn't drawn equivalency. And I think, 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.240 you know, Mike did a very elegant job of drawing 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.679 that distinctionaries as these people not only have a right 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.600 to defend themselves, but they probably have a good reason 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.120 to given all of these things. He was basically writing 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:02.760 the lyrics to arrage against them en song and um, 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.120 I was a little astonished by that, and he made 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.000 a very clear point to say, like, yeah, there are 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.200 people who are aggressors and there are people who aren't. 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.600 We can find a distinction in that. And if we're 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.000 just now getting concerned about this violence, well maybe we 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.320 should ask why we've had such a big blind spot 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:20.600 for so long. And he got right to the core 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:25.880 of it. It's these ideologies deeply baked into our institutions 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:30.240 of white supremacy, right supremacy. UH basically all the way 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:35.560 back to colonization, and you know, dealing with that is 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.160 necessary for us to deal with the broader problem. And 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:43.120 I think he was very clear to say, like the 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.720 things that were required to get to that point of 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:50.520 like a potential shootout would be a total breakdown in policing. 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.120 And so he played place the blame at the feet 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:59.200 of the police practically said it's there goddamn fault that 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.560 people feel the need to do this, because if they 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:05.160 just focused on the crimes that proud boys commit in 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.600 the Dallas area, uh, you know, basically minor assaults and stuff, 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.200 they would trace it back to the people that are 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.240 committing them, and they would cut down on these escalations 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.880 because the same people are the ones that show up 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:32.520 to these events time and time again. It's worth like Robby, 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.160 you're talking about like an inflection point, right And we 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.000 spoke about like failures in policing too. I think part 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.200 of the reason that we see things as super duper 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:43.920 exceptional right now is the way that we teach history 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.520 in schools here and part of the things we don't 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.360 teach like that this has happened before, right, like the 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:53.280 Battle of Haze Pond being a paramount example, if we 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.440 look at the like the standoff at Wounded Knee or 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:57.240 the Second Battle of Woundednee, or whatever you want to 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.800 call it, and throughout the civil rights movement. Right there's 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:05.600 a book by Rob Williams about a contemporary book about 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.520 the use of firearms and the civil rights movement that 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.000 people can read like all of this stuff did happen then, 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.400 And this same tension that we're feeling now about like 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.600 a society putting itself apart and when it leads to 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:20.040 a civil war also happened then and people felt this 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.880 then two and we we well, the progress was made 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.000 at that time. We didn't fix everything, right, Like that's 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.680 why we're having this discussion now. But like, I think 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.720 the fact that we've removed so much of that, specifically 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.840 the violence and the use of guns from our discussion 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.560 with the civil rights movement sometimes leads us to see 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.320 what's happening now is like really particularly exceptional, and it's 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.000 not like, yeah, it's always been the case of marginalized 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.720 folks that have resorted to the same tools that are 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.240 used to oppress them to defend themselves. And why wouldn't 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.400 they write, like like Mike said, like Steve said, there's 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.880 a very good and clear reason for oppressed people to 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.880 want to defend themselves and their communities. The only analog 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.040 that we were able to bring up in the conversation 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:07.280 is like the pink Pink panthers, pink panther control, which was, 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:09.800 you know, something that a lot of people don't know about. 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.160 And we did get a little bit of opportunity to discuss, 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.880 you know, the black Panthers and how community defense is 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.879 a different set of reasons for arming yourself and having 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.000 knowledge of the Second Amendment and all those sorts of things. 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:27.919 Then you know, going outside in an event hosted by 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.280 an organization you have no interest in belonging to wearing 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.200 your guns on your body to send a message that's 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.640 a very menacing form of free speech. And I think 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.520 another good moment to bring up when we talk about 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:44.960 this would be the Red Summer of nineteen nineteen, which 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.840 was a series of race riots targeting black people in 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:52.240 the United States that also involved large groups and communities, 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.639 particularly in cities, of Black Americans taking up arms and 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.160 defending themselves um and and was fairly enormous and it's 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.280 deftal hundreds and hundreds of people were killed. Um, it's 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.120 it's really a pretty nightmarish moment in history. But it's 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.720 the thing when you have groups, and we're about to 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.280 have someone on from from Yellow Peril Tactical, when you 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.960 have groups that are specifically organizing and saying like we 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:19.080 are organizing, we are teaching skills for people to become 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.080 armed because we are afraid that we and people like 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.720 us will be victimized. It's stuff like the Red Summer 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:29.200 that they're directly looking at. It's not theoretical, you know. Yeah, 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.160 you're Frank Karl from Arranged TV. Have some good videos 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.000 about a lot of these different things if people are 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:38.880 interested in looking them up. Yeah. Um, and I think 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.320 probably we should bring on our next guest for tonight, 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.080 and and Stephen will be staying on as well. Snow 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.320 from Yellow Peril Tactical. Snow, do you want to introduce 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.000 yourself and your organization for folks who may not be 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.560 as as familiar with the stuff as we are. We 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.400 we briefly covered y'all a little bit earlier in this 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:02.439 but yeah, thanks for having me. My name is Snow, 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.439 my pronouns the sheet or they, and I am one 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:10.720 of the many members of Yellow peril tactical. We are 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:17.000 a collective of leftist Asian Americans under the shared ideology 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:21.119 of being anti authoritarian um. And we talked about all 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:26.000 sorts of things, but particularly how to develop firearms skills 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:31.560 and also community defense and the occasional ship post and uh, 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.639 first questions, because we're talking about this Cato Institute thing 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:36.159 that Stephen was on. Have you had a chance to 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:39.280 listen to that yet? Since y'all watched it twice I 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:44.480 have or paid notes? Yeah? Yeah, why why don't we 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:50.119 start here? Yeah? Go off? You know, Okay, Like the 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:54.800 chat was lit. When we first saw that we were mentioned, 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.960 we were like, wow, we fucking made it because originally 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:00.119 we started as a ship post account and then we 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.000 were like, oh, people actually care, um. And this is 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.560 just one of those moments where, uh, I don't know, 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:10.840 it felt like really surreal that Kato would even give 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:13.960 a funk about us because we do all of this 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.280 in our free time. You know, this is like nobody 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:21.240 pays us, right, um. And so we had a lot 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:27.160 of skepticism going into it, um. And in a sense, uh, 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.720 we're a bit on the defensive, kind of preparing for 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.800 a lot of false equivalence, rhetoric um, and a lot 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:39.760 of just like I don't know, maybe like orientalism as well, um, 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.760 just given the history of how like Westerners have viewed 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.840 Asian culture. UM. But ultimately, like the consensus has been 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.520 that we were pleasantly surprised of how balanced it was. 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.760 I thought, overall it was very intriguing, and I got 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.640 some good some good quotes written down, But I don't 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:58.520 know if you want to go into those now or 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.720 later or what can we start with having I really 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:03.879 want to like anchor this in having you explained what 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.760 community defense means, like so people can understand why, and 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.680 then we can go from what people say to you. Yeah, UM, 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:14.240 so earlier y' all we're talking about like, um, the 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.399 nineteen nineteen riots and actually reminded me of like the 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:21.160 Pacific Coast Race riots of nineteen seven, and a bunch 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:25.520 of were like murdering and committing violence against Asian people, right, 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:29.480 And nineteen oh seven was not that long ago. Um, 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.960 And in a sense it never has gone away. Um. 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:37.480 And you know, I think, um, Chris Files said it 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:40.280 like put it nicely when he was like, you know, 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:44.200 in the backdrop of a lot of anti Asian violence. Um, 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:48.200 it's just that it's been a lot more prevalent among 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:53.679 Asians specifically. That doesn't stop you know, like Boba liberalism, 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:57.560 identity politics from happening where there's not like a grand 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.040 division of like what's going on at large. Um. But 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:06.320 we know that like our communities are under attack and 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.560 the cops don't give a funk about us, and if anything, 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.479 they just make it worse most of the time. Uh. 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:14.639 And so it's truly up to us because you know, 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.520 cops don't prevent crime, They come after and they funk 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:24.200 it up. Um. And it's not something that has come 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:27.399 easily to me personally. I've been in denial about it 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.359 for a lot of years around thinking like if I 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.720 just avoid going out late at night, if I am 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:36.000 always walking with a buddy, if I just you know, 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.520 spend twenty minutes looking for a closer parking spot, it'll 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:44.000 prevent me from being harmed. And ultimately, like that's just 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:48.920 me being in denial, um. And part of it. Another 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:54.840 realization is like being strapped, I can seal Carrie every day, 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:59.200 that's not going to deter someone from attacking me because 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:05.120 of how I look without dosing myself I just look alternative, right, um, 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:08.600 And knowing that that puts me at risk has never 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.160 deterred me from wanting to express myself with how I look. 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:16.679 But I know the risks, and that doesn't stop people 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:18.760 from me. But part of it is like I'm not 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.720 going down without a fucking fight. Like my ancestors have 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.080 come too fucking far. We kicked out the French, we 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:28.399 kicked out the US, right uh, and now I'm in 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:32.240 their turf. I've infiltrated the wire. But that doesn't mean 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:35.560 but you know, it doesn't mean that it's going to 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:39.280 stop them from harming US. Um. And you know, we 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:42.439 know that we can't live in a fever dream where 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:46.920 every single fascist on this planet will be gone. Um. 0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.359