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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abuse of

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Speaker 2: power that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six Trust that's.

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Speaker 2: Three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived to you, I never do you.

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Speaker 2: Think that one person has all the answers?

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Speaker 1: Don't Welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and manipulation from two hosts who have actually experienced it.

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Speaker 1: I'm Megan Elizabeth. This week we are without Lolablanc because

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Speaker 1: she is attending to an emergency, so I am joined

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Speaker 1: by producer Steve Hi.

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Speaker 4: Steve Hi, everybody, thanks for being here, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: This week's episode, we are lucky enough to talk to

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Speaker 1: Simon kent Fung, a tech and media expert who recently

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Speaker 1: released the heartbreaking podcast Dear Olana. Llana took her own

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Speaker 1: life in twenty nineteen. Simon read about her in the

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Speaker 1: news and was shocked at the similarities and their stories

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Speaker 1: and experiences with conversion therapy.

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Speaker 4: Simon delves into how conversion therapy is no longer the

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Speaker 4: lobotomies and electro shock of the past. It's become a

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Speaker 4: still controversial but compelling narrative that can draw young people in,

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Speaker 4: especially those who want to be a priest ory none

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Speaker 4: just like Simon and Alana.

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Speaker 1: So usually we do a cultiest Thing of the week,

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Speaker 1: but this week we don't have Lola, and I don't

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Speaker 1: expect you to just have a cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 3: On the flylight this.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Megan, You're welcome, Steve. But there was something

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Speaker 1: that Simon said in his podcast that really struck me,

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Speaker 1: and I thought that maybe I would just share it

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Speaker 1: with listeners because it's wild.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was surprised by this set as well.

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Speaker 1: He said that seventy thousand people under the age of

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Speaker 1: eighteen in the USA are getting conversion.

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Speaker 3: Therapy still to this very day, to this.

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Speaker 1: Very day, and as we get into the episode, you'll

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Speaker 1: learn that conversion therapy again, like you said, it's not

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Speaker 1: shocking somebody or even really telling them they're wrong. The

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Speaker 1: narrative that they've come up with this basically something that

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Speaker 1: kind of I'm using quotation marks that no one can

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Speaker 1: see kind of makes sense, which is so much scarier.

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Speaker 1: So I'm so grateful he's doing this podcast and I

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Speaker 1: can't wait for people to listen to it.

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Speaker 2: So let's get into it.

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Speaker 3: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Simon Kent fung to trust me. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me so excited to be here.

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Speaker 2: So you are here with us today because you are

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Speaker 2: the creator and host of an incredible new podcast. It's

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Speaker 2: called Dear Alana. It is so emotional, it is so

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Speaker 2: well done.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like the detail that you go into

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Speaker 1: the word compelling compelling.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, we are here to talk about that podcast topic,

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Speaker 2: which is conversion therapy, and in particular, there was a

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Speaker 2: young woman named Alana Chen experienced conversion therapy and ultimately

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Speaker 2: ended up taking her life. It's a very sad story.

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Speaker 2: I want to start with your own personal experiences that

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Speaker 2: kind of led you to the point where you identified

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Speaker 2: with Alana. Can you tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 2: your upbringing and how religious your family was and how

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Speaker 2: you kind of came to be very devout.

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Speaker 3: Sure, So I grew up in Canada. I was born

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Speaker 3: in Canada to a Chinese immigrant family from Hong Kong,

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Speaker 3: and we didn't grow up very religious at all. My

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Speaker 3: dad was Catholic, my mom wasn't. For most of my life,

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Speaker 3: we would go to Mass sort of occasionally whenever we

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Speaker 3: could make it as a family, and religion was always

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Speaker 3: in the background of my family, but not very front

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Speaker 3: and center. I remember though, as a young child, I

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Speaker 3: was kind of the guess what everyone would call today,

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Speaker 3: like the good kid, you know, like parents would be, Oh,

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Speaker 3: he's the good kid. He's always very compliant. And I

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Speaker 3: think I saw myself as this like very rule biting kid,

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Speaker 3: but also someone who found a lot of interest in God,

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Speaker 3: in the faith. And I think a big reason for

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Speaker 3: that is because as a grade school kid, I was

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Speaker 3: bullied a lot. I didn't have any friends. I was

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Speaker 3: often on the school yard alone, and religion and God

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Speaker 3: became for me this friend, right, God became this friend

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Speaker 3: and protector for me, and I found a lot of

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Speaker 3: comfort in that. And so I ended up growing up

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Speaker 3: and as I become a teenager, I ended up discovering

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Speaker 3: a brand of Catholicism in college that really started to

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Speaker 3: compel me in many ways because it offered a very

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Speaker 3: interesting intellectual rationale and justification for its authenticity and for

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Speaker 3: its truthfulness. And I was really searching at that time

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Speaker 3: for some more certainty around what I believed from a

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Speaker 3: spiritual perspective, and so ended up getting involved with a

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Speaker 3: lot of groups in college that proposed this kind of

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Speaker 3: because we're going to talk more about later, but at

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Speaker 3: the same time felt this calling since I was a young,

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Speaker 3: young teenager even to the priesthood, and I felt drawn

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Speaker 3: to that kind of calling. I remember I as a

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Speaker 3: young kid. I was probably I don't know, eleven or twelve,

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Speaker 3: and I was asked to draw a picture of what

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Speaker 3: you want to be when you grow up. And my

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Speaker 3: picture was like me and my grandma in front of

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Speaker 3: a church, and I was dressed up as a priest.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And I remember finding this later and being like, oh

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Speaker 3: my god, I can't remember. I can't believe I actually

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Speaker 3: felt this wave. And at that early age what.

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Speaker 2: Appealed to you about the idea of becoming priest.

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Speaker 3: I think it was just the sense that there was

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Speaker 3: this The priest for me represented this person in the

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Speaker 3: community who was able to bring people to God right,

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Speaker 3: who was able to be as be a sort of

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Speaker 3: witness to God in people's lives, and whose job it

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Speaker 3: was to care for people, to minister to people, to

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Speaker 3: you know, counsel them and and ultimately help them discover

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Speaker 3: God in their lives. Right, So there was a there

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Speaker 3: was the sense of, you know, wanting to help people

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Speaker 3: on a sort of spiritual.

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Speaker 1: Level, which just a in reject is so kind of

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Speaker 1: you because you were so horrifically bullied. I remember you

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Speaker 1: saying it one part of the episode. You read in

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Speaker 1: the Bible like God makes what's weak strong, what's small big,

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Speaker 1: and that really spoke to you. But because you're you

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Speaker 1: were being so badly bullied, Like I kind of went

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Speaker 1: the other way we were talking about before this began,

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Speaker 1: where I was like God's my enemy, He's so mean.

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Speaker 1: Why did he create me getting bullied and whatever? But

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Speaker 1: you somehow found this like friend in it, and then

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Speaker 1: you wanted to give peace to.

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Speaker 2: Other people's That's very sweet. Yeah, that's a.

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Speaker 1: Very different take than I went, and it's very kind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that interesting, like the similar experiences and very different reactions, right,

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Speaker 3: And I think that, yeah, that might have to do

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Speaker 3: with like our temperaments and just how we might be

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Speaker 3: wired differently. But but you're right, like there can be

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Speaker 3: very different reactions to the same experiences. And yeah, and

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Speaker 3: for me, it was like it was just like the

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Speaker 3: peace and the comfort that I felt in God was

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Speaker 3: something that I felt like I wanted to share with

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Speaker 3: other people and you know, help people discover in their

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Speaker 3: own lives. And and so that was something that called me.

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Speaker 3: And I think at the at the core of it, though,

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Speaker 3: if I had to be if I have to be

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Speaker 3: completely honest, like, it wasn't a rational decision or even

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Speaker 3: like thought. It was more of a feeling, right, It

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Speaker 3: was more of a like, this is something I feel

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Speaker 3: like is drawing me. That is something I'm drawn too

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Speaker 3: that I see in some ways my life, you know,

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Speaker 3: moving towards and and so there was more maybe even

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Speaker 3: intuitive at that sense, at that level, especially at that

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Speaker 3: younger age.

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Speaker 2: Right, how I wanted to be a princess?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and yes, also can relate to that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, so you discover you kind of get deep

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Speaker 2: into this new form of faith, which I am curious

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Speaker 2: about is like version of Catholicism that you discovered. But ultimately,

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Speaker 2: like from such a young age, you wanted to be

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Speaker 2: a priest. That was the thing that you saw for

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Speaker 2: your life.

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Speaker 3: It was, it was and I think that, like to

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Speaker 3: jump ahead a little bit, like, I think that's one

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Speaker 3: of the first things that struck me about reading about

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Speaker 3: Alana ten story, right, was the fact that she, at

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Speaker 3: a young age, had this desire to be a nun.

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Speaker 3: And I, you know, you're right, like it's not a

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Speaker 3: common experience, even for really devout kids, but and so

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Speaker 3: so I think the fact that she had that similar

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Speaker 3: calling and seriousness about that that jumped out to me.

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Speaker 3: So that was kind of the first similarity I noticed there.

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Speaker 1: Something's coming to mind, right now, do you feel like

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Speaker 1: you have OCD at all?

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Speaker 2: Like I have OCD?

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Speaker 1: And I remember watching the Sound of Music and being like,

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Speaker 1: I just want to be a clean Maria out in

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Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere with those nuns, like not doing

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Speaker 1: anything to cause any problems. And now looking back, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that was just kind of that acting itself out.

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Speaker 2: Do you see that at all in yourself?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely see see tendencies of like OCD as

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Speaker 3: well as like scrupulog like what's called religious scrupulosity.

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Speaker 1: In my.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in my in not so much coming from my family,

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Speaker 3: but I remember I'm when I talk about this, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, when I learned about how to how to

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Speaker 3: do a proper confession, right, like, I was very obsessed

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Speaker 3: with whether or not I was doing everything perfectly, like

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Speaker 3: if any of the if any of the criteria for

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Speaker 3: making a confession, like of you know, what the church

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Speaker 3: considers a valid confession. In my mind, wasn't meant like

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Speaker 3: I go back like the same day to do another confession.

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Speaker 3: And so I think that that is something that you'll

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Speaker 3: hear in the story, for both myself as well as alone.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not even to diagnose her, but certainly

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Speaker 3: she displayed some compulsive elements to her own her own

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Speaker 3: religiosity that, yeah, I think temperamentally was in a lot

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Speaker 3: you know, was consistent with the ways that we were

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Speaker 3: in other parts of our lives. Like I think both

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Speaker 3: her and I were top students, Like we were kind

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Speaker 3: of overachievers, Like we were really always trying me perfect

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Speaker 3: in religious settings that can take on these kinds of behaviors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I noticed that as well in Alana's journals as well.

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Speaker 2: In the podcast, you talk about these like sort of

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Speaker 2: lists of sins that she was writing in her journal,

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Speaker 2: but also that were kind of coming from different sources

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Speaker 2: in the church, and it sounds like it was this

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Speaker 2: very sort of confusing, like it depended on who you asked.

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Speaker 2: What was an important sin and what wasn't, Like what

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Speaker 2: was that experience for you, like just trying to navigate

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Speaker 2: what is a sin and how to get rid of it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean for a lot of Catholics, their introduction

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Speaker 3: to confession happens at a at a youngish age, and

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Speaker 3: the ways that we're taught in Sunday School is usually

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Speaker 3: very basic. Right, It's kind of like, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: let's take a look at the Ten Commandments and let's

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Speaker 3: sort of translate that to what a young child might

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Speaker 3: be going through and how some of those commandments might

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Speaker 3: look in their lives in terms of like ways of

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Speaker 3: violating those commandments. Right. So I think like a lot

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Speaker 3: of kids, like I got that kind of basic Catholic

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Speaker 3: education through Sunday School and it wasn't until really college.

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Speaker 3: And this is similar I think a lot For a

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Speaker 3: lot it happened a little earlier in high school where

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Speaker 3: the technicalities versin became a lot more spelled out. And

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Speaker 3: there are lots of websites about this. There are books,

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Speaker 3: there are resources, there are pamphlets out there that that

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Speaker 3: are you know that we're more accessible the older we

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Speaker 3: got that really go into defining what sin could look like. Right.

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Speaker 3: Sin could look like having a lustful thought about someone.

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Speaker 3: Sin could look like being jealous of your friend for

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Speaker 3: getting better, you know, having nicer shoes than you or whatever,

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Speaker 3: right like. And I think what's interesting now in hindsight

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Speaker 3: as an adult, you know, in looking back, is that, like,

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Speaker 3: our understanding of sin is still very basic, at least

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Speaker 3: in the way it's it's taught in a lot of

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Speaker 3: religious settings, and in fact, there's a lot of complexity

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Speaker 3: and depth into why people behave the way they do.

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Speaker 3: It's not always motivated by a desire to you know,

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Speaker 3: disobey God or be bad. Right. It can come from,

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Speaker 3: you know, a desire to a need to cope with

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Speaker 3: something discomforting in one's life. It can come from sort

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Speaker 3: of an unconscious place, it can come from you know,

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Speaker 3: there's all these other factors that go into the calculus

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Speaker 3: of what the Church would consider sin that I think

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Speaker 3: we were lacking in our education, and so as a

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Speaker 3: young person, we really took a lot of these messages

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Speaker 3: at face value and it took them quite literally and

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Speaker 3: we're like, oh my god, like I literally thought that

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Speaker 3: person was hot. I need to confess that, you know,

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Speaker 3: and that I think is some of the some of

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Speaker 3: the slippery slope that you begin to see. I think

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Speaker 3: you're right now in sort of the first half of

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Speaker 3: the season, but that is sort of the path that

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Speaker 3: both Alan and I go down in terms of the

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Speaker 3: ways that we related to sin and the way we

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Speaker 3: were policing our own behaviors and thoughts.

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Speaker 2: It's a big job, okay, because the thoughts are just thoughts.

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Speaker 2: You can't help your thoughts that pop into your head.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's something I've always thought about confession. To

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Speaker 1: have never done a confession because I wasn't rais Catholic.

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Speaker 1: But you're admitting something conscious, but a lot of our

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Speaker 1: stuff is unconscious, so it's such a big like disconnector

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Speaker 1: it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to start talking about your own relationship

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Speaker 2: with your sexuality and when you started to maybe think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it didn't look like other people's.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean I talk about this in the show, Like,

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Speaker 3: there were many moments in my life even as a

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Speaker 3: child where I was I noticed I was different and right,

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Speaker 3: and whether it was the way I was not feeling

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Speaker 3: like I was fitting in with the boys and gender

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Speaker 3: conforming in that way. But it wasn't until I was

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Speaker 3: in my like, you know, started hitting puberty in my teens,

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Speaker 3: that I just started noticing boys my age who were

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Speaker 3: I found, you know, attractive and were eliciting feelings in

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Speaker 3: me that I had, you know, did not know how

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Speaker 3: to deal with. I was very confused about and kept

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Speaker 3: all of that inside. I I didn't tell anybody, you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of young LGBT folks just try to save

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Speaker 3: that for another day, right, So I focused on being

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Speaker 3: a really good student and being a really good, you

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Speaker 3: know kid at home. And so those were some of

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Speaker 3: the ways that I mostly dealt with it throughout high

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Speaker 3: school and more or less didn't identify in any way

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Speaker 3: in any direction with my sexual orientation because it just

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Speaker 3: was too scary for me. At the same time, I

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Speaker 3: think subconsciously and at some points later on consciously felt like,

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Speaker 3: this doesn't matter anyways, because I kind of want to

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Speaker 3: be a priest, and so priests aren't going to ever

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Speaker 3: have to, you know, work to deal with Priests don't

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Speaker 3: have sex and don't get married. And so like that

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Speaker 3: is not something I'll really have to deal with if

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Speaker 3: I become a priest, And.

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Speaker 1: Are priests expected to not masturbate as well? Like, do

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Speaker 1: you just become a completely asexual being?

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's that is the rule. So the way that

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Speaker 3: church teaching works, sexuality is only to be expressed in

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Speaker 3: a heterosexual marriage, and anything outside of that, including masturbation

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Speaker 3: or homosexual activity, is considered sinful and outside the balands

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Speaker 3: of what the traditional sexual ethic would teach. And so

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Speaker 3: for priests, they are not married, and so they fall

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Speaker 3: under the category of not being able to express their

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Speaker 3: sexuality and in in that way or even as even

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Speaker 3: in through masturbation. Yeah, and to be fair, I do think,

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Speaker 3: like I do think there are some people that are

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Speaker 3: called to that life, you know, I think there are

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Speaker 3: some people who are called to a very asthetic way

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Speaker 3: of life and who have the capacity to, yeah, to

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Speaker 3: live out their sexuality in I guess like non sexual ways,

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Speaker 3: if that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, well, yeah, Sex and the City episode where

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Speaker 2: the priest isn't to God and anyway.

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Speaker 1: I mean an asexual person for example, would be great.

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Speaker 2: That's a priest. Yeah, ye, but I imagine that's a

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Speaker 2: lot more rare and difficulty to come by. Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: would be very hard to take on that life if

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Speaker 2: that is not your predilection. Yes, So in episode four

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Speaker 2: you get into all of these different sources coming from

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Speaker 2: Catholic culture and culture at large, you know, early psychology,

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Speaker 2: who are spreading this message that homosexuality was somehow an

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Speaker 2: illness or a product of like an unhappy childhood or

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Speaker 2: like a bad father relationship. And you wrote in your

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Speaker 2: journals referring to your sexuality as s S a same

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Speaker 2: sex attraction, like it was this disorder that you had.

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Speaker 2: Can you just talk about that process a little bit

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Speaker 2: and that messaging that you were getting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, for many conservative religious folks, the word homosexuality

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Speaker 3: or gay is kind of a no no because it

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Speaker 3: is it describes a person's predilection in a way that

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Speaker 3: for them seems to imply an identity that doesn't actually exist.

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Speaker 3: So for a lot of a lot of folks, they

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Speaker 3: don't actually believe homosexuality is an actual thing. It's it's

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Speaker 3: like it's more of an it's more of a condition,

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Speaker 3: and that everyone is actually intrinsically heterosexual and just has

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Speaker 3: sort of their wires crossed in a way that through

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Speaker 3: their upbringing or through some trauma that resulted in them

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Speaker 3: deviating from the course of normal development. And so to

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Speaker 3: identify someone with the word, to use the word homosexual

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Speaker 3: or gay. For a lot of a lot of religious folks,

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Speaker 3: and I would say broadly conservative Christians, that is seen

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Speaker 3: as kind of like in the same way as identifying

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Speaker 3: someone with with their disease.

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Speaker 2: A disease, like admitting it's real, almost.

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Speaker 3: Admitting it's real. And also to them it seems like

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Speaker 3: it's it's not adequately encompassing the person in their entirety,

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Speaker 3: So it's almost like calling someone an alcoholic the whole

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Speaker 3: time being, instead of like calling someone like Lola, it's

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Speaker 3: like calling someone Lola the alcoholic, or you know, someone

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Speaker 3: who's defined by a condition that they see as many

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Speaker 3: people see as a as a disorder or a disease,

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Speaker 3: and so they don't in some ways, in the logic

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Speaker 3: of a lot of these folks, it's actually an act

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Speaker 3: of charity to not be using these words towards that

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Speaker 3: person because it seems like it's minimizing them in some way,

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Speaker 3: and instead they prefer the term same sex attraction, which

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Speaker 3: sounds a lot more clinical, as you mentioned, but to

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Speaker 3: them better encapsulates the relationship between the person and their

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Speaker 3: quote unquote condition, just like as I I say in

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Speaker 3: the podcast, saying, Oh, this person has psoriasis, or this

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Speaker 3: person has you know, you know ibsked, like this person

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Speaker 3: has in sex attraction or SSA. That makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when you start feeling these feelings in yourself,

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Speaker 2: I mean you said at first you were kind of

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Speaker 2: just like, I'll not deal with that right now, I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to worry about that. But eventually you did

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Speaker 2: begin to worry about that, right I did.

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Speaker 3: And I think the main reason I began to worry

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Speaker 3: about it was is because I became increasingly aware that

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Speaker 3: this would be potentially an obstacle for me becoming a priest.

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Speaker 3: So I was similar to Alana, and I want to

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Speaker 3: maybe touch on her life more and we'll get there

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Speaker 3: because we're kind of going back in time. But I

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Speaker 3: met a priest in college who became very close with

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Speaker 3: me and became my spiritual director, as I describe in

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Speaker 3: this show, which is a kind of like a religious coach, right,

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Speaker 3: someone who you meet with weekly who gives you reading

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Speaker 3: assignments and as about your prayer life and who you

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Speaker 3: confess to. And it's kind of a more intensive coaching

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Speaker 3: for usually people who are discerning a life as a

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Speaker 3: priest and I, but also folks who are generally more devout,

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Speaker 3: you know, they'll they'll usually seek out this kind of guidance.

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Speaker 3: And there are many priests who offer it. And so

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Speaker 3: I had one of those in college who I talk

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Speaker 3: about in the show, and he became very close with me,

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Speaker 3: and you know, came over for dinner with my fam,

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Speaker 3: with my parents and and got became very close with us.

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Speaker 3: And I knew at the same time that I was like,

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Speaker 3: all we were talking about was my plans for you know,

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Speaker 3: joining the seminary, right Like this was the topic, which

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Speaker 3: was you know, as Simon called to this to the priesthood,

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Speaker 3: and if so, what will he be doing next and

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Speaker 3: what steps will be he'd be taking. So that was

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Speaker 3: top of mind for me. At the same time, I

396
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Speaker 3: was such a by the book person that I like

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Speaker 3: read all the like Vatican documents about seminary admission, and

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Speaker 3: one of the documents stated very clearly that those who

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Speaker 3: have deep seated homosexual or same sex attractions should not

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Speaker 3: be admitted to the priesthood, and there's like, usually there's

401
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Speaker 3: a spiritual rationale behind this around how people who are

402
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Speaker 3: homosexual are not able to like image a kind of

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Speaker 3: paternal figure in the lives of others. And there's this

404
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Speaker 3: kind of idea that, you know, because we are essentially

405
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Speaker 3: defective heterosexual people, we aren't living the fullness of our identities,

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Speaker 3: and so therefore you're not really able to live out

407
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Speaker 3: that calling. And so I was like, oh, my goodness,

408
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Speaker 3: like that is not something I want to force. And

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Speaker 3: so I felt very motivated to try to fix this

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Speaker 3: part of me. And so the quote unquote fix this part.

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Speaker 3: So the way that that began was even prior to

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Speaker 3: my spiritual director directing me to these resources, I was

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Speaker 3: already researching on the Internet and buying books secretly on

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Speaker 3: Amazon about the subject. I have some of them here,

415
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Speaker 3: like books like Growth into Manhood and Prepared, you know,

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Speaker 3: Therapy of Male Homosexuality. A lot of these books no

417
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Speaker 3: longer purchasable on Amazon because they've since been taken down,

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Speaker 3: But these were some of the classics in the mid

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Speaker 3: odds for me as I was coming of age and

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Speaker 3: I began researching this privately. And so then when I.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's this very pivotal moment that I talk

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Speaker 3: about in the show where my priest asks me very directly,

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Speaker 3: like are you ready to join in the fall? Like

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Speaker 3: join the seminary in the fall, And and that's when

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Speaker 3: I tell him, you know, father William, there's something I

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Speaker 3: have to tell you, and it's that I struggle with

427
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Speaker 3: same sex attractions. And he immediately changed his demeanor towards me.

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Speaker 3: He directed me to a resource, a website that I

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Speaker 3: had already gone to that was a conversion therapy network

430
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Speaker 3: for therapists that you could find the therapists through, and

431
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Speaker 3: he didn't talk to me ever. Again. Wow, So that

432
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Speaker 3: was the advice that I received and that I was

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Speaker 3: already very willing to pursue. He just kind of made

434
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Speaker 3: it more obvious that I need to do this in order.

435
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Speaker 3: He said, you know, come back when you're healed. And then,

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Speaker 3: you know, that was that was the advice he gave me.

437
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 3: And so I think what a lot of people don't

438
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: know is that conversion therapy as it happens today, like

439
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 3: looks a lot different than the way it was happening before.

440
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 3: And you know, I think a lot of people think

441
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 3: of conversion therapy. They think of the way it's portrayed

442
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 3: in Hollywood, right as this usually sort of fundamentalist practice

443
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: where you're in a room with someone throwing a Bible

444
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 3: at you, or doing shock therapy on you or something

445
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 3: very physically violent. But the way it's evolved, which I

446
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 3: document in the story, is that it's come to look

447
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 3: a lot more like talk therapy. It look comes to

448
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: look a lot more like for idian psychoanalysis around your

449
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 3: wounds as a child. And that began through the next

450
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: decade in my twenties, my search to cure quote unquote

451
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 3: cure this part of me.

452
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 2: I want to switch gears into Alana. But just to

453
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 2: sort of recap some of the things you experience that

454
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 2: you talk about in the podcast, your conversion therapist was

455
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 2: teaching you this like how to be like more masculine

456
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: and how to like take up more space and role

457
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: play fighting your bullies and that kind of thing, which

458
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 2: is really interesting. And there were these like theories that

459
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: like in this twisted way, they almost sound logical at

460
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: face value if you don't know that what it's referring

461
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 2: to is just being gay. But yeah, it almost sounds

462
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 2: like this like weird version of pop psychology that, of course,

463
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: like is not rooted in actual anything legitimate, but I

464
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: could see how you'd be like, yeah, exotic becomes erotic,

465
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 2: you know, like that.

466
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 3: Kind of Yeah, I'm so glad you said this, because

467
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 3: that was really one of the goals in writing this

468
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 3: was I really wanted people to be able to see

469
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 3: the logic and the rationale behind why I and Alana

470
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 3: would have willingly chosen to pursue this kind of therapy. Like,

471
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 3: it wasn't that we were just told to do it,

472
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 3: or that we were just following the rules. It was

473
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 3: that there was some compelling there were some compelling elements

474
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 3: to the theory that actually drew from our own experiences

475
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: as children or as young people, and they were weaving

476
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 3: them into a narrative that felt like it explained why

477
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 3: we were gay, so real, real briefly, like, the theory

478
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 3: behind a lot of contemporary conversion therapy is the idea

479
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 3: that you know, inspired by Freud, our upbringings and our

480
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 3: relationship with our parents really shapes who we are as adults,

481
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 3: which like, on the face of it sounds like yeah,

482
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: like obviously like hard to take that off, for granted,

483
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: hard to argue, yeah, But what they do is they

484
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 3: then go deeper into saying that the reason why you're

485
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: gay is because as me as a male and a

486
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 3: lot as a female, but slightly different in each case.

487
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 3: But for me as a male, the reason why I

488
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: was gay is because I had some trauma, either with

489
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 3: my father or with my same sex peers, which resulted

490
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: in me in some senses, disassociating from my masculinity and

491
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 3: not growing in that, and so at puberty the need

492
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 3: for me to connect with this part of myself, my

493
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 3: masculinity becomes eroticized and ends up becoming something I seek

494
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 3: in another person rather than affirming and discovering in myself.

495
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: So that kind of becomes the logical basis and the

496
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 3: vice versa, you know, with women with their mothers and

497
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 3: so like, I think that for me that lined up

498
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: with like the bullying, It lined up with the fact that, yeah,

499
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 3: I didn't have a really good relationship with my father

500
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 3: growing up, and it felt like this explained why I

501
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 3: was gay in such a compelling way. And the therapy

502
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: itself was really trying to address like some of the

503
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 3: trauma that I did experience, and so it all felt

504
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 3: very much like Oh my god, like this is all

505
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: this all makes sense, And if I can like sort

506
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: through all this and recover from these traumas, then then

507
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 3: of course I can resume what they call resume your

508
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 3: developmental journey and become straight. Like that that makes complete

509
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 3: sense to me. And I was hoping and sharing some

510
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: of these details which were which I seldom discussed, you know,

511
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 3: in this detail when we talk about conversion therapy and

512
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 3: sort of pop culture. I was hoping that people would

513
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 3: then begin to understand why people choose to do this

514
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 3: and also kind of like why you know it hopefully

515
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: informs some of the conversation around how to detect it,

516
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: how to help people. You know, notice when these theories

517
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: are part of the discourse in their religious or non

518
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 3: religious settings, it's.

519
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: So different than the like, you know, coming out after

520
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: someone with a lobotomy and hitting them that we're so

521
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: used to. This is, like, like you said, very very

522
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: seemingly practical. What's the word I'm searching for, proactive, Like

523
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 1: let's do this kind of stuff.

524
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: Oh, I have this disorder, it's getting in the way

525
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: of my goal. And I see all the reasons that

526
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: I haven't.

527
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: You would sign right up for those you this would

528
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: be your type a like sure you would love it,

529
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: I would love it.

530
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Oh there's a way to fix it.

531
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 3: Thing that's on top of it, yeah, journal, yeah, doing

532
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 3: your homework, you know. And also the other piece of

533
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: this is that this was really the first time I

534
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: actually was in therapy at all period, right, So to

535
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 3: be actually exposed to like someone who was listening to

536
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: me and who's taking notes, who is like asking me

537
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: about you know, some of these these these experiences that

538
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 3: I had as a child and as a young person,

539
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 3: like that was like very affirming, right, And so that

540
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: like also was part of why I stayed in it.

541
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: And and it wasn't until much later that I began

542
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 3: to talk to other people, other gay lesbian folks who

543
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 3: had not been through conversion therapy and noticed things like, oh,

544
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: you didn't have a rough relationship with your dad, Like

545
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 3: oh my goodness, like why are you gay? Then? Or

546
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: even talking to great people and being like you also

547
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 3: have dad, like why aren't you gay? And that that's

548
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: when I realized that, like, why this is so compelling

549
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: is that everyone has some probably some experience with some

550
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 3: of these quote unquote risk factors, but like They never

551
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 3: they never like adopted this narrative, right, They simply saw

552
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,239
Speaker 3: this as, Oh, I was bullied too, and you know,

553
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: I still need to process that trauma. But that is

554
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: not in any way, like you know, the reason why

555
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 3: I'm gay, And there's no any there's no presumption that

556
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: resolving that will actually make me straight. Like there's no

557
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: sense that if you are you know, if you've been

558
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: bullied as a child that and you're straight, that like

559
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 3: you would somehow be able to change your orientation by

560
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,959
Speaker 3: resolving those issues. I mean, I think there's like influences

561
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: that those have on, you know, in our lives. But

562
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 3: but I think that like underlying premise, isn't.

563
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: There No, there's no connection to sexuality. Well, I mean

564
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: to bring it to Alana.

565
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: She wasn't bullied, correct, right, She had a ton of

566
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: friends and sports.

567
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: A loving family, popular, struggles with her parents, I guess, right,

568
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: but a much different upbringing than you.

569
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's one of the things I try to

570
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: do is to show both the similarities and the differences

571
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 3: between Alana's upbringing and overall experiences in my own, because

572
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: there are differences, and one of those, as you mentioned,

573
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: is the fact that she she had a ton of friends,

574
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: and it's something that I was kind of jealous of

575
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: as I was interviewed some of the people in her

576
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 3: life and reading about it in her journals which her

577
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 3: family shared with me. It's that she was surrounded by

578
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 3: a lot a loving community, through sports, through family, through church,

579
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 3: and so for her, the rationale behind this was focused

580
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: more on her relationship with her mother.

581
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: So can you just tell us how you kind of

582
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: came to do this deep dive into Alana's life.

583
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was living in San Francisco, working, living

584
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: my life, and I came across the news of the

585
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 3: death of this young woman, Alana Chen when it happened

586
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 3: at the end of twenty nineteen, and I remember I

587
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: was in a coffee shop and was just immediately felt

588
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 3: like I was struck by lightning. It was like I

589
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: was frozen in my seat. I couldn't believe the details

590
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 3: I was reading. The fact that she was devout, she

591
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: wanted to be a nun, the fact that she'd pursued

592
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,239
Speaker 3: conversion therapy, the fact that you know a lot of

593
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 3: the aspects of the religious community she was a part of.

594
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 3: I felt like I knew and recognized even sort of

595
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: reading between the lines, and so I remember just like

596
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 3: shaking and snot crying in the corner of this coffee

597
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: shop and being so surprised by this. And I ended

598
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 3: up looking for her family on Facebook and just trying

599
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 3: to see if there was a way to reach them,

600
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 3: And I found her mother and I sent her an

601
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: email and I just described some of my own background

602
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: and story. At this point, I had told very few

603
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: people about these experiences, these therapeutic experiences, even my desire

604
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 3: to be a priest. You know, I had sort of

605
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 3: put all of that aside in order to sort of

606
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 3: belong and fit into society because I felt like such

607
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 3: a freak for having these experiences. But I shared with

608
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 3: her some of my own and I offered just any support,

609
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 3: you know, she needed if she needed to talk, feel

610
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 3: free to reach out. Did not expect her to respond

611
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 3: to me at all, because you know, they were in

612
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 3: the middle. This was in the first few weeks of

613
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 3: her death, and so they were very much grieving. But

614
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 3: she did get back to me, and she did get

615
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 3: back to me in a few months later. We talked

616
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 3: on the phone for the first time, and that's when

617
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 3: I got to know a little bit more about her daughter,

618
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 3: and that's when that really began, a texting and phone

619
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 3: kind of friendship that developed over the next year and

620
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 3: a half. Fast forward to the middle of twenty twenty one,

621
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 3: COVID had sort of begun to end, and I had

622
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 3: basically felt very burnt out from my job. I was

623
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 3: working in tech, and I decided to take a sabbatical,

624
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 3: so to take a few months off and to move

625
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 3: back home to my parents just for a few months

626
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: to get my bearings and to rest. And in that

627
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: period it was like August twenty twenty one, I was

628
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 3: lying in bed awake, it was like two AM, and

629
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: alana story just kept haunting me, like I felt like

630
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 3: there was so much that I still needed to know,

631
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 3: that there was so much about her that felt like

632
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 3: I was getting in some ways forgotten, and that in

633
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 3: some ways I felt like I had some connection to

634
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 3: and had maybe some clues as to maybe what was

635
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 3: really going on. Her family had discovered her journals shortly

636
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 3: before she had passed, actually before she had passed. She

637
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: had some suicide scares prior to her death, and her

638
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 3: family had discovered some of her writings early on, but

639
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 3: had been reading through you know as much as they could,

640
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 3: but really weren't finding a lot of answers and had

641
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: a lot of questions about some of the ideas, and

642
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 3: just generally her religiosity because like me, like Alana's family

643
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 3: wasn't that religious. Alanna really came to Colicism in college. Yeah,

644
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 3: in high school and college, and so she had this

645
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: kind of secret in her life that nobody quite understood.

646
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 3: And so anyways, I was lying in bed awake and

647
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: I just felt like I would like to explore the

648
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 3: story more deeply, and the thought came to document this,

649
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: and audio felt like the perfect medium because it's such

650
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 3: a delicate and personal, intimate way of telling a story.

651
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 3: And I got on a zoom with her mother and

652
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 3: her sister, Alana's mother and sister and their attorney a

653
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 3: few weeks later and said, hey, I have an idea,

654
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 3: like hear me out proposed the idea of doing this,

655
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 3: and they were immediately supportive. They said, you know, we're

656
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 3: not in a position to like investigate this, or we're

657
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 3: just not really ready to do this, and we may

658
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 3: probably never be able to talk to some of these

659
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 3: people in Alana's life that had such a deep influence

660
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: on her but maybe you will be able to. And

661
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,959
Speaker 3: so I ended up flying down in September to start

662
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 3: recording and start gathering information and material, and that was

663
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 3: the beginning of the project.

664
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: You talk to her mom directly. I mean, you talk

665
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: to so many people who knew her choice is an angel. Yeah,

666
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: it's heartbreaking. She talks about how Alana first she saw

667
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: a special, like an Oprah special on TV about a convent,

668
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 2: and that kind of gave her the idea to become

669
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 2: a nun. Risbee. They're having fun.

670
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: The nuns look like they're having a great time Oprah

671
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: Oprah A little bit right, Yes, she did.

672
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: One thing that I thought was really interesting was that

673
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: you said the same week that she sees this special

674
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: on TV and kind of makes this decision for herself.

675
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: This new priest in town also raises this idea to her.

676
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: What a what a terrible coincidence? Can you talk? You

677
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 2: don't have to share too much if you want to

678
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: say it for the podcast, but just like a little

679
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: bit about some of these influences in her life who

680
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: kind of led her further down the path of shame

681
00:37:58,719 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 2: about who she was.

682
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, as a lot of writes and documents on

683
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 3: her she she kept really extensive timelines of her life,

684
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 3: which was actually quite a gift because she kind of

685
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 3: documents out, like key events in every grade she was

686
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 3: in high school, in college, and so it's very it's

687
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 3: very interesting to see how that timeline lines up with

688
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 3: her writings from those periods and you know, other people

689
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 3: who knew her at the time. But yeah, you're right.

690
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: At the age of fourteen, she meets a priest who

691
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 3: approaches her after Mass and he asks her, have you

692
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: ever thought of becoming a nun? And just for those

693
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 3: who are not Catholic or who are not part of

694
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: this part of Catholicism, like this is actually not unusual

695
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 3: for a certain kind of like Catholic or a certain

696
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 3: kind of priest. There is this constant sort of recruiting

697
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 3: that's happening to the stood and to the to be,

698
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: you know, to the convent. And so I think that

699
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 3: that is not terribly unusual for someone to say that,

700
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 3: especially if they notice a devout child or young person

701
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 3: sort of praying after Mass and sort of staying behind

702
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 3: and the pews, like there are recommendations to actually encourage

703
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 3: that kind of questioning from both you know, from both

704
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 3: priests and non priests like personers to be like, oh,

705
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: if you see someone who you think is like called

706
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 3: in this way, like, why don't you ask them? Because

707
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 3: that could actually start planning seats in their minds, right, okay,

708
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 3: and so you know, so the fact that this happened

709
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: is not terribly unusual given who Alana was. You know,

710
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 3: the fact that at this time in her life, she

711
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 3: was sneaking out to go to church every day in

712
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 3: the summer with right five it was five thirty pm.

713
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, this girl loves church. Five thirty

714
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: pm is still pretty will the vibe Why you're sneaking

715
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: out You're.

716
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: Taking a bus to go to church? Yeah, secretly, not

717
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 2: where I was sneaking out when I was a teenager

718
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: and the slightest Yeah, wild.

719
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And so so when you know the fact that

720
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 3: he you know, he probably noticed that she was showing

721
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 3: up to mask consistently and so so, yeah, the fact

722
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 3: that he would ask is not unusual, But you're right,

723
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: it kind of came at around the time that Alana

724
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 3: had met this and encountered this version of Catholicism through

725
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 3: several summer camps at her parish and had this thought

726
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: where Oh my goodness, Like, I'm so curious about these

727
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 3: women who are living this like fascinating life. Like they're

728
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 3: they're wearing their habits, they're playing frisbee, they are in

729
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 3: ball hockey, you know they are. They seem so joyful

730
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 3: and they seem to be living this life and community

731
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: together that's so idyllic. And so I could see the

732
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 3: draw there and Jesus like.

733
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, the idea to me, but what the

734
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: women hanging out with girls? But like if you're obsessed

735
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: with Jesus being married, sure, super dope to me.

736
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like the idea behind religious life,

737
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 3: like what Catholics called religious life, which is becoming a

738
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: priest or a nun or a brother, is that your

739
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 3: spouse is God right. So like, rather than choosing like

740
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 3: a husband or a wife like an earthly one, you're

741
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 3: choosing a heavenly one and that's that's kind of what

742
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 3: you end up devoting your life to. So yeah, a

743
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 3: lot of these girls that they were interviewed on OPRAH

744
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 3: were really excited about the idea of marrying Jesus and

745
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: being within twenty four to seven, which I think is

746
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 3: also what appealed to Alana.

747
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 2: How literal do people think about that? Like, is it

748
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: actually romantic on some level? Some of Alana's journal entries

749
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 2: like bordered on like the almost like a parasocial relationship

750
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 2: or something. I don't know what you would call that,

751
00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: But what do you think of that?

752
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 1: Yeah?

753
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think I think quite literally a

754
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,760
Speaker 3: lot of uh you know, there there are some nuns

755
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 3: where where wedding rings, you know, that actually represent their

756
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 3: their spouse, you know, their their marriage to to Jesus

757
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 3: in that way. And and I think that like there

758
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 3: is a really interesting mystical tradition of writing that that

759
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 3: does you know, see God as a kind of lover

760
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 3: and almost romantic partner. You know, many mystics right, like

761
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 3: it's it's unclear like certainly not physically sexually, but but

762
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: ecstatic and you know, reaching those same heights of passion.

763
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 3: I would say that, you know, I think that a

764
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: lot of mystical traditions outside of Christianity even touch on

765
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 3: where you can have such a close relationship to Divinity

766
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 3: that it's almost as in talkating as a sexual or

767
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 3: romantic relationship.

768
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 2: It's like orgasmic kind of but not.

769
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, no, that's a great word.

770
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can totally see how she would fall into

771
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: that and that would felt something for her.

772
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: It makes total sense. So she develops this like ecstatic

773
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: relationship with God and becomes more fixated on sin, and

774
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 2: along with that, obviously she's starting to notice her own

775
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 2: feelings toward other girls. And with that comes all the

776
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 2: same things that you experienced. It seems like a lot

777
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: of shame, a lot of scrupulosity, a lot of really

778
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 2: really harsh self criticism and judgment. In the trailer for

779
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: your podcast, there's an image from her journal that says,

780
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: I am a bad person because I am gay, and

781
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 2: that is just so devastating. I mean, how long was

782
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 2: that process and how much of did you think was

783
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: coming from her versus coming from some of these like

784
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:00,919
Speaker 2: other peaceeople in her life?

785
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think this is really part of

786
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 3: the complexity that we try to explore in the show,

787
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 3: is that it's somehow it's really hard to separate separate

788
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: some of those influences. But they did all converge on

789
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 3: her at a very young age, right, like her general

790
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 3: perfectionistic tendencies even as a small child, along with now

791
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 3: this like new found like knowledge about what constituted a sin,

792
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 3: and her own policing of that, and her own, you know,

793
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 3: very diligent recording of that, of that in her journals,

794
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: and then and then on top of that, now like

795
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 3: these budding feelings that like any any devout Catholic would know,

796
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 3: our suspect, you know, are like are are certainly things

797
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 3: something to be alarmed about and and something to be

798
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 3: concerned about because it it could lead to you know,

799
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 3: this kind of further sin that would be horrible to

800
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 3: to find oneself in. Right, So so I think like

801
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 3: all of these things played a role, and and I

802
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 3: think part of the part of the tragedy of this

803
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 3: is that Alana found herself in a part of the

804
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 3: church that was simultaneously attractive to young people because it

805
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 3: presented this very shiny version of Catholicism. At the same time,

806
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 3: there was quite a bit of emphasis on on sin

807
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 3: as it was understood, you know, as it's understood broadly,

808
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 3: but but specifically, there was a lot of emphasis on

809
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 3: you know, making a good confession, on not being able

810
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 3: not receiving comunion if you were in a state of

811
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: mortal sin, which which is interesting concept for Catholics. Where

812
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 3: you know they give mortal sin is that if you

813
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 3: willingly and freely choose something to do something that's very

814
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 3: very serious, like, for example, murder somebody and like not

815
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 3: like accidentally, that that action would constitute an offense so

816
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 3: serious that it would cut you off from God forever

817
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 3: and you know, would result in you going to hell

818
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 3: if you were to die at that moment. And so

819
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 3: there was a deep both Anna I experienced a deep

820
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 3: fear of ever being in that position. And so we

821
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 3: were always on vigilant and looking at our looking at

822
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 3: our actions and thoughts to not be to not end

823
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 3: up there right. And so the fact that she was

824
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 3: so so fixated on these these ideas, you know, on

825
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 3: this at such a young age, adding the fact that

826
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 3: she was starting to feel attractions towards women like that

827
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 3: became the like soil. I think that that really set

828
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 3: the stage for some of the later things that she

829
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 3: ends up going through.

830
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: Do Catholics believe that taking your own life is a

831
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 1: sun that cut you off from God forever? Like is

832
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: was she just so convinced that that was going to happen,

833
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: that it's a risk, Like she just couldn't live with

834
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: it anymore.

835
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: And was like I'm doomed.

836
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 3: You know, up until very relatively recently, yes, the church

837
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 3: did believe and teach that suicide was a mortal sin

838
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 3: and was something that was so you know, it was

839
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 3: an action that was so drastic that would cut you

840
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 3: off from God forever. However, and more contemporary periods with

841
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 3: more information about psychology and you know how people end

842
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: up in depression and what that is like, and how

843
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 3: that inhibits decision making in other ways, and you know,

844
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 3: the complexity of what goes into an act like taking

845
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 3: one's life like that has shaped the church's position now

846
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: where that's no longer considered that kind of a sin,

847
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 3: and so I think there's a lot more empathy for

848
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 3: victims in that way.

849
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 2: So, yeah, we can obviously let listeners go to your podcast.

850
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: But there's a very interesting episode that gets into her

851
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,720
Speaker 2: relationship with this man, father Dave. She has an ongoing

852
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 2: email relationship with her. She's sneaking off to do these

853
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 2: sessions with him. He tells her pornography releases real live

854
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 2: demons into your home, which I also believed as a child.

855
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: I cannot believe that I never heard any fail like this,

856
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: and I was obviously raised very strict.

857
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 3: Oh.

858
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 2: I remember a family member telling me a story about

859
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 2: one time they looked at porn and then they woke

860
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: up that night and there was a demon watching them.

861
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 2: And so if I ever were to masturbate or look

862
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 2: at porn, I would wake up with demons.

863
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: This is just one of those moments I have to

864
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: drop in my favorite subject on the world that I've

865
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: become almost the bore about The Righteous Gemstones, a scene

866
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: where Danny McBride is telling his son never to masturbate

867
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: because all of his ancestors are watching, and he's just

868
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: in like a in a video chair that his son

869
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: plays in, like getting tossed around and stuff, and it's

870
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: like a really, I don't know, great great parody on

871
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: how ridiculous it is my Righteous Sons religious trauma heals it.

872
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, I still have to watch that.

873
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, please do let me know how you like it.

874
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 2: Are you still a man of faith?

875
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 3: Yes, I am still a practicing Catholic. It's still something

876
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 3: that's really important to me. It's a part of my

877
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 3: identity just as much as my sexuality is. So yeah,

878
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 3: so how do you now?

879
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure we'll hear much more about it

880
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 2: as the podcast continues, But can you give us a

881
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: general answer to how do you conceive of this conflict

882
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 2: between these ideas about the LGBTQ community and this church

883
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: that you hold dearly.

884
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think like for me, it's been

885
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 3: it's been you know, a decade since to really sort

886
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 3: through and process some of these experiences and these messages.

887
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 3: Right Like, it's a very they were received. I received

888
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 3: them at a very formative age, and so it's not

889
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 3: very easy to erase or undo them to unlearn. But

890
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,439
Speaker 3: for me at least, what's been some of the things

891
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 3: that been helpful to me and and processing and healing

892
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 3: has been like meeting other LGBTQ Catholics and Christians who

893
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 3: who had not gone through these experiences and who have

894
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 3: been able to find a place of integration, and like

895
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 3: just asking about their lives, seeing how they live, because

896
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 3: part of I think what makes the experience that Aloni

897
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 3: had so isolating in which and what a lot of

898
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 3: people who are trying to be faithful to their their

899
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 3: faith at the same time as you know, faithful to themselves,

900
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 3: you know, and to a part of themselves that they

901
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 3: may they may see as a pathology in the moment,

902
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 3: but over time may come to to see otherwise. But

903
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 3: for a lot of us, it's very isolating because of

904
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 3: the shame that we we encounter in these environments. I

905
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,399
Speaker 3: talk about I have to talk about how there's kind

906
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 3: of three layers of shame for people in this position.

907
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 3: There's the shame that a lot of us experienced for

908
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 3: being LGBTQ in any way, right, that that just comes

909
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 3: with feeling different and you know, no matter how accepting

910
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 3: our surroundings might seem. Two, there's the shame that Alanna

911
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 3: and I received from the idea that we are the

912
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 3: way we are because of some trauma or some horrible

913
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 3: thing that happened to us as children. That that just

914
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 3: comes with its own baggage of like, oh my gosh,

915
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 3: like me and my dad, you know the fight that

916
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 3: we that had, you know that that resulted in me

917
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 3: being this way, and there's just so much shame there.

918
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 3: And then the third level is the shame that comes

919
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 3: when after years of trying, you're not seeing any results,

920
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 3: and so there's this sense that you know, not only

921
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 3: am I traumatized and broken because of that, you know,

922
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 3: because of the fact that I'm gay, there's I must

923
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 3: be so a day only broken and damaged because I'm

924
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 3: not able to actually resolve this and fix this right,

925
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: so so that that I think results in a real

926
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:13,959
Speaker 3: sense of despair that encompasses a lot of us who've

927
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 3: been in these situations about who we are, about our

928
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 3: relationship with God, about you know, whether or not God

929
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 3: actually cares about us, and about how damaged we are.

930
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 3: And so the result is that for a lot of us,

931
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 3: we just don't see a future for ourselves, like there

932
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 3: is no good outcome here, and that I think is

933
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 3: the tragedy of what a lot of people have been

934
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 3: in these situations feel. And so it's taken time to

935
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 3: you know, I do ask this like in the show,

936
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 3: which is like why am I here today? And Alan

937
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 3: is not like what? You know? What was what was

938
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 3: different about our experiences, And for me it was part

939
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 3: of it was beginning to meet other LGBT folks who

940
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 3: were able to show me another way, who had such

941
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 3: a deeper sense of self acceptance that I certainly never had.

942
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 3: I think part of you may have this experience coming

943
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 3: from sort of conservative religious traditions, but part of what

944
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 3: happens in those communities. Is there's kind of a selection

945
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:21,399
Speaker 3: bias where people who are different who are you know, queer,

946
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 3: LGBTQ in in some ways they end up leaving the religion, right,

947
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 3: and so who ends up staying ends up being like

948
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 3: the people that do look more conforming, right, And so

949
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 3: you you you don't often have those around you if

950
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 3: you do stay in those spaces who are who are queer? Right?

951
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 3: Who are who are who do identify in that way?

952
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: Because you're kind of cut off from those those people

953
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:51,279
Speaker 3: and being in those inclosed those enclosed communities, and so

954
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 3: you don't actually have a chance to meet others who

955
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 3: had a chance to.

956
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 2: Creates like an echo chamber.

957
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: I will say, also I have I have a d

958
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: D and I've no is that everybody with add has

959
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: left the religion that I grew up on because.

960
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,240
Speaker 2: You're too boring. You're just not capable of following the rules.

961
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,959
Speaker 1: You can't do it, Like I want to be good,

962
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 1: but I couldn't do it, Like I just can't sit

963
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: that long, I can't whatever that long.

964
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 2: So a kind of different version of the of US

965
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 2: similar thing. Yeah, I literally can't not be gay, So yeah,

966
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: exactly what are my options? Yeah, Yeah, if there were

967
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 2: a listener who's still religious and kind of things conversion

968
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 2: therap there might be something to this conversion therapy thing.

969
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: What would you say to that person?

970
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 3: I would I would invite that person to maybe listen

971
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 3: to the podcast just to just to hear, you know,

972
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 3: from a perspective of somebody who has been through similar experiences.

973
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 3: And I think that I would ask them to revisit

974
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 3: and potentially re examine some of the messages maybe receiving

975
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 3: around their their damagedness and their brokenness. Oftentimes in religious settings,

976
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 3: the theory the theory of conversion therapy, which is that

977
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 3: you know you're gay because of some trauma and some

978
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 3: lack of integration around your masculinity or femininity. In religious settings,

979
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 3: often that takes on religious language. So it's not necessarily

980
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 3: about the psychological brokenness, but it's about spiritual brokenness. And

981
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 3: so you know, I would invite them to also re

982
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 3: examine some of those messages around like are you spiritually broken? Like, yes,

983
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 3: there are lots of ways in which we as human

984
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,439
Speaker 3: beings are imperfect, but are you particularly damaged in this way,

985
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 3: even if it's described in a religious way. And I would,

986
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 3: you know, invite them to to look at themselves with

987
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 3: some compassion there and to perhap perhaps challenge some of

988
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 3: those ideas. And thirdly, I would I guess I would

989
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 3: like let them know that that they don't have to

990
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 3: choose like this is a false choice, and that this

991
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 3: part of you that is so important, you know, your

992
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 3: relationship with the spiritual and with God, and like that's

993
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 3: that's just as valid as you know your your your

994
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 3: your orientation and identity. And I think that, like the

995
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 3: attempts to try to I talk about this in the show,

996
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 3: there's like this dichotomy, this kind of jumping between you know,

997
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 3: in a lot of religious spaces, the message that oh,

998
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 3: this is just a small part of you that you

999
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 3: can manage right on the one hand, and on the

1000
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 3: other hand, it's like this is something that will, if unchecked,

1001
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 3: leads you to hell. Feels like very very confusing because

1002
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 3: it's like, wait, is it a small thing or is

1003
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 3: it a big thing?

1004
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 1: Like what is this?

1005
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 3: And I think sometimes like it's okay just to affirm

1006
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 3: somebody in that position, to be like it's okay to

1007
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 3: feel confused about that, because it is confusing. It is

1008
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 3: in some ways contradictory and it's okay to feel disoriented

1009
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,240
Speaker 3: by that because it is something that needs to be questioned.

1010
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of my cousins is a trans man and

1011
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 2: he is very much a Christian and has found this

1012
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 2: way into Christianity that I just think is so beautiful.

1013
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 2: That's something we don't I think talk about enough on

1014
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 2: the podcast because we've you know, we talked to a

1015
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: lot of people who've experienced religious trauma, and many people,

1016
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 2: I should say, leave religion all together.

1017
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: If they come on our podcasts, they come on our

1018
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: podcast exactly.

1019
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 2: But there is a way to still have that relationship

1020
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 2: with God and still have this spiritual life and go

1021
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 2: to church, but maybe just find people who are more

1022
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: accepting and find a version of it that values you

1023
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: for who you are and doesn't tell you that you're broken.

1024
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And it's hard, right because we have to

1025
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 3: sort of unpack some of the assumptions that we might

1026
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 3: have about what it means to believe and what is

1027
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 3: you know, what are the markings of truth in religion

1028
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 3: and and I think all of that is very much

1029
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 3: ripe for questioning because if something isn't working, like there

1030
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 3: is something suspect about that, like you know, what I mean, like,

1031
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 3: that's a sign that like this larger system that you

1032
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 3: might be invested in is like not the full explanation

1033
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 3: of reality. And I think just inviting people to be

1034
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 3: open to that possibility when they're taught in a lot

1035
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 3: of these closed communities that no, this is the be

1036
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 3: all and and all, we have all the answers, this

1037
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 3: is the truth, Like that is something very scary, and

1038
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 3: so I would encourage them to, you know, seek help

1039
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 3: and talk to folks. I'm not a therapist, I'm not

1040
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 3: somebody qualified to speak to the exact ways to recover

1041
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,919
Speaker 3: from religious trauma, but I would encourage them to would

1042
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 3: I would just invite them to know that, you know,

1043
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 3: to consider the idea that that there are other alternatives

1044
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 3: and that there are other ways of looking at the world.

1045
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 2: Embrace the nuance and questions everything absolutely, because ultimately religions

1046
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 2: are run by people, and people, as we know, are

1047
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 2: fallible and can go about it wrong. Thank you so

1048
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 2: much for sharing your story and for putting this podcast out.

1049
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 2: I'm so excited for the rest of it. Is there

1050
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 2: anything you'd like to end with and also where can

1051
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 2: people find you and the podcast?

1052
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 3: Sure? So if anyone's interested in hearing the podcast, they

1053
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 3: can go to dear Alana dot com or search for

1054
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 3: Dear Alana on whatever on Apple podcasts, on Spotify, whatever

1055
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 3: podcast appy they use. And dear Alana dot com also

1056
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 3: has some additional resources that are I think relevant to

1057
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 3: this conversation about sort of recovering from some of these

1058
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 3: experiences and finding help. Certainly, if there's anybody who's feeling

1059
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 3: at risk of self harm, to contact the National Hotline

1060
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 3: nine to eighty eight. I think there you will find

1061
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 3: some very good help there for people that you can

1062
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 3: talk with about, you know, any of these any of

1063
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 3: these challenges that you might be experiencing. And yeah, and

1064
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 3: then through through derelana dot com you can learn more

1065
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 3: about me. You can just also google me Simon Kent

1066
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 3: Fung and and learn more about what I'm doing.

1067
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 2: Amazing.

1068
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you again, Thank you Simon

1069
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 1: for being on the show. I mean, this podcast is heartbreaking,

1070
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: It's hard to get through in a compelling way, and

1071
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,959
Speaker 1: she sticks with you, so I'm so grateful her story

1072
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: is being told. Please go listen to it, Come listen

1073
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: to us again next week. We can't wait to see

1074
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,479
Speaker 1: you and as always, remember too follow your gut, watch

1075
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: out for red flags, and never ever trust me.

1076
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 3: Hi.

1077
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1078
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 2: Steve Delamator.

1079
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song

1080
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: was composed by Holly amber Church. You can find us

1081
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 1: on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me Cultpod,

1082
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1083
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1084
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1085
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: Hits on Twitter.

1086
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.