Speaker 1: Also media, Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, Ladies, gentlemen,
Speaker 1: gentle bems, h and all points in between. This is
Speaker 1: a podcast about the very worst people in all of history,
Speaker 1: and normally it's a podcast where I, the host, Robert Evans,
Speaker 1: read a story about the very worst people in all
Speaker 1: of history to a guest who generally comes in cold,
Speaker 1: not always. Yeah. Yeah, I've been doing this eight years.
Speaker 1: You know, you know the drill, thunk.
Speaker 2: You've figured it out by now. Even I know the
Speaker 2: drill by now.
Speaker 1: And regular listeners will recognize the voice of my dear
Speaker 1: friend Greasy Will, the Grammy Award winning Greasy Will.
Speaker 3: Hey, fuddy, what's up?
Speaker 4: How's it going. I'm very excited to be here and.
Speaker 2: Today if you we are going to flip the rolls right,
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna tell you about about somebody who's very
Speaker 2: near and dear to my a bastard of the music industry.
Speaker 4: And I'm very excited about this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a question first, Yeah, yeah, yeah, Greasy, Well,
Speaker 3: who I love my buddy. Uh do you know where
Speaker 3: this is being streamed right now?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 4: We are we well on Netflix?
Speaker 3: Yeah, our good buddy Greasy Will here. The second we
Speaker 3: announced that we were going to be streaming video episodes
Speaker 3: on Netflix, commented sellouts, So what does that make you?
Speaker 1: That's what I my friend of fifteen years.
Speaker 4: When I was a.
Speaker 2: Kid, being a sellout was an insult. But now, as
Speaker 2: an adult the world that we're in, being a sellout
Speaker 2: just means you successful.
Speaker 4: You know, it's exciting for me.
Speaker 3: Just means you get to buy the good produce.
Speaker 1: Are there other ways I made money in the path
Speaker 1: that I might have preferred more? Are there different ways
Speaker 1: to you know? This is the this is the future
Speaker 1: we've been given.
Speaker 2: Look, look you're talking to a guy who All right,
Speaker 2: So I have a course, a recording course that I made,
Speaker 2: and recently I posted this ad that I had made
Speaker 2: with a high quality camera like the one you're viewing
Speaker 2: me on right now.
Speaker 4: If you are in fact viewing.
Speaker 2: Me, I high quality camera and all the comments where
Speaker 2: people like greasy and high death is weird.
Speaker 4: I don't like it, So welcome.
Speaker 3: To our lives.
Speaker 2: Specifically, like I do not do high quality in anything
Speaker 2: I do in music, I mean in anything.
Speaker 1: It's perfect well, because I've reached the peak of my
Speaker 1: success as a professional in an audio medium. And you
Speaker 1: also reached the peak of your success as a professional
Speaker 1: in an audio medium. Yes, and the powers that be,
Speaker 1: in their wisdom, decided we got to put these guys
Speaker 1: on TV. People need to see their faces. For some reason,
Speaker 1: I don't know. When we moved to Netflix, a surprising
Speaker 1: number of people were just based on confusion or based
Speaker 1: on the fact that it changed from YouTube, were like,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that many people were watching the podcast, right,
Speaker 1: But we have. We've been working on it. We have
Speaker 1: gotten it to where audio episodes of the show are
Speaker 1: back on YouTube music. So if you listen to the
Speaker 1: show that way, I know there was there was confusion.
Speaker 1: Things got disrupted there for a while, but from now
Speaker 1: on that should be normal. And initially a lot of
Speaker 1: our international viewers were cut out because it was Netflix
Speaker 1: wasn't letting it wasn't our show wasn't available internationally.
Speaker 4: Damn region specific broadcasts. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now our show is available on most of the places
Speaker 1: that Netflix serves.
Speaker 3: Worldwide, baby Vietnam and Korea for reasons I don't know.
Speaker 1: So the Aussie's out there, you can you can watch
Speaker 1: now if you've got Netflix. I don't know. Again of
Speaker 1: the audience listens because it's a fucking podcast. So hopefully
Speaker 1: none of this should be changing for most of you.
Speaker 1: Who are we hearing about today? Will who? What piece
Speaker 1: of shit are you going to tell me about? I know?
Speaker 4: But so let me ask you this. Let me ask
Speaker 4: you this first.
Speaker 2: Uh, if you had a mount rushmore of horrible music
Speaker 2: people right like whoever you.
Speaker 4: Could think of? Who? Who's Who's your George Washington.
Speaker 1: It's it's gotta be Michael Jackson, because Michael's the perfect
Speaker 1: mix of that man's music. You simply can't cut his
Speaker 1: music out of popular culture and have it make sense.
Speaker 1: There's too big a gap like his he he made,
Speaker 1: the impact he made is there, and a bunch of
Speaker 1: his music is immortal and also definitely raped a bunch
Speaker 1: of kids.
Speaker 4: Ton of Yes, just like my bas bastard.
Speaker 3: Maybe yeah, I can give I can give my four?
Speaker 4: Yeah, go ahead, Sophie.
Speaker 3: My four, Michael Jackson, R Kelly P. Diddy and the
Speaker 3: subject of this episode.
Speaker 4: That's all right.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna tell y'all, I don't think the subject
Speaker 2: of my episode makes it on on the Bastard's uh
Speaker 2: a mount rushmore iry And here's.
Speaker 4: And here's why. Here's why.
Speaker 2: Because you you want to hear because number one is
Speaker 2: Ian Watkins. Do you guys know who Ian Watkins is? No,
Speaker 2: Ian Watkins was recently just actually I was going to
Speaker 2: bring this up even before, but Ian Watkins was recently
Speaker 2: murdered in prison. Because they don't like those those types
Speaker 2: of people who do those things to infants.
Speaker 1: Infants.
Speaker 2: He was the singer Lost, Yeah, he was the singer
Speaker 2: of Lost Prophets and.
Speaker 1: This guy.
Speaker 2: Yes, So it was interesting that you might because I
Speaker 2: do have a question in my overall thesis in discussing
Speaker 2: this person is when is it bad enough to cut
Speaker 2: somebody out?
Speaker 4: And when does their music overshadow.
Speaker 2: The big the big picture, right, because we so often
Speaker 2: in the music industry, we we will give people weird passes.
Speaker 2: Weird people get weird passes just because they're good at something.
Speaker 2: You know, they're good at making noise. That's kind of
Speaker 2: ridiculous to me. I do not I do not think
Speaker 2: that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: But people, really, you're allowed to molest fifteen years, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: or younger.
Speaker 4: So our subject today is somebody who I think is.
Speaker 2: Horrible, and you will hear a lot of evidence to
Speaker 2: uh to that effect, back that up. Yes, But but
Speaker 2: our subject today is Phil Spector, Phil Spector.
Speaker 4: Do you know about Phil Spector at all? Like? What
Speaker 4: do you know about?
Speaker 1: Here's here's how much I know about Phil Spector. In
Speaker 1: order to even listen to this podcast, I had to
Speaker 1: make make sure I had a gun on me like
Speaker 1: that Christ, because I know Phil's bringing one.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, Phil is definitely bringing a gun to the
Speaker 2: party for sure.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, let's do it.
Speaker 4: This will be our episode today.
Speaker 2: We're we're we're gonna talk about Phil Spector.
Speaker 4: Boom, cold open. Done. We did it.
Speaker 1: We're done, We're opened.
Speaker 3: Look at you, prettiest girl at the party. I love it?
Speaker 2: All right, are you guys ready to hear about Phil Spector?
Speaker 1: I was born ready, well, actually I was born bloody
Speaker 1: with the cord wrapped around my neck, but also ready.
Speaker 2: What were you? Were you in fact a cord baby?
Speaker 2: That explains a lot.
Speaker 4: I think I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I was in labor for like seventy hours. Something was
Speaker 1: wrong with me.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I think I was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she had a chip on her shoulder about that.
Speaker 1: It might have just been forty eight hours. It was
Speaker 1: like a long time.
Speaker 3: And and and in perfect comparison of our relationship. My
Speaker 3: mom was in labor with me for less than an hour.
Speaker 2: I think my mom had me inside of the back
Speaker 2: of a pickup truck, but I don't know, like a camper.
Speaker 4: Maybe I think, yeah, yeah, you can.
Speaker 1: You are one of my friends most likely to be
Speaker 1: born inside of a pickup truck. My god, Yes, it
Speaker 1: was an honor.
Speaker 2: So first off, I want to say, uh, this is
Speaker 2: why I picked Phil Spector, and because I am in
Speaker 2: personally a very big fan of his work. It is
Speaker 2: it has informed a lot of my work as a musician,
Speaker 2: as a producer, as an engineer. I I love Phil
Speaker 2: Spector's work. To me, it was it was so groundbreaking
Speaker 2: for the time for many reasons. And there's a lot
Speaker 2: of like future of music that came from where he
Speaker 2: was at, you know. And I like to do that
Speaker 2: game of like, oh well, I like the Beatles, and
Speaker 2: the Beatles were really influenced by like what Brian Wilson
Speaker 2: and the Beach Boys were doing.
Speaker 4: And Brian Wilson loved Phil Spector.
Speaker 2: Right, And so it's like, if you are a Beatles fan,
Speaker 2: you not only have heard Phil Spector's work, you've also uh,
Speaker 2: you've also like been influenced by him indirectly through them
Speaker 2: loving you know, the chain of command that it was
Speaker 2: right or chain of Cutso yeah, yes, yes, so Harvey
Speaker 2: Phillips Spector. His name was not phil original Harvey.
Speaker 4: Harvey was his name.
Speaker 2: Harvey Phillip Spector was born on December twenty sixth, nineteen
Speaker 2: thirty nine, in the Bronx, New York. That's at least
Speaker 2: what the birth record say. His mom claimed that he
Speaker 2: was born on Christmas Day because she honestly and truly
Speaker 2: I think maybe believe that he was the second coming
Speaker 2: of Christ.
Speaker 4: That was actually like she was just really really like indo.
Speaker 1: So okay.
Speaker 2: He he had an older sister, Shirley, and an older
Speaker 2: brother who died just days after being born, who was
Speaker 2: born just before him, which is a bit why he
Speaker 2: got the ultimate Jewish mother protection system going on over
Speaker 2: him for his whole childhood.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he is. He is wrapped up. There's a
Speaker 1: wall between him and the real world.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 2: There are unconfirmed theories regarding Specter's extended family structures. Some
Speaker 2: biographical accounts suggests his parents may have been closely related,
Speaker 2: possible even first cousins, though this has never been definitively proven,
Speaker 2: but he said it all the time.
Speaker 4: He would tell people this. He'd be like, my parents
Speaker 4: were cousins.
Speaker 2: It was like, all right, like I guess randomly at
Speaker 2: like lunch on a Tuesday or something, he's bringing this
Speaker 2: stuff up. Oh yeah, yeah. What is well documented is
Speaker 2: that both sides of his family were Jewish immigrants whose
Speaker 2: families fled. Let's take a break real quick, Robert, Uh,
Speaker 2: you want to playing guess the country his Jewish relatives
Speaker 2: had to escape in the late eighteen hundreds to early
Speaker 2: nineteen ones.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with Poland.
Speaker 2: Oh so close, very close, very close. Uh pot, probably
Speaker 2: we don't know exactly, but probably Belarus or oh yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: or or Ukraine to Ukraine to possible.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, you're you're in the right the right area.
Speaker 1: A lot of people who are like, I don't know
Speaker 1: exactly what country they were in, and part because it
Speaker 1: was several years over the period of time they lived there.
Speaker 2: That's literally the description that's most often given is Eastern Europe.
Speaker 4: They fled Eastern Europe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he lived under three or four governments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So you know, this is a very
Speaker 2: classic early nineteen hundred's American tale of you know, Jewish
Speaker 2: immigrant families leaving their country because of the anti Semitic
Speaker 2: programs going on, and then coming to America, settling in
Speaker 2: New York in a very Jewish neighborhood, or being surrounded
Speaker 2: by other Jews who had.
Speaker 4: Escaped these same situations.
Speaker 2: So obviously some generational trauma going on for sure to
Speaker 2: start off, and also family trauma and also some questionable
Speaker 2: things going on with his mother already, you know.
Speaker 4: As far as her mental stability is.
Speaker 2: So. As a child, Specter was described as overweight and
Speaker 2: physically fragile. He struggled with recurring health problems and was
Speaker 2: often encouraged to stay indoors rather than participate in sports
Speaker 2: or outdoor activities. Developed a strong dislike for beaches, athletics
Speaker 2: and physical competition, and any environment where he felt exposed
Speaker 2: and inadequate. Over time, his body changed. Yeah, yeah, he
Speaker 2: hates beaches.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's my favorite bit of that old thing. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know what, I hate beach. You are not Ken,
Speaker 3: Phil Spector. Your job is not beach.
Speaker 4: Okay, no joke.
Speaker 2: Like multiple times throughout any of the biographies that you
Speaker 2: read about him, it's brought up that he doesn't like beaches,
Speaker 2: specifically beaches. He's like, oh yeah, Phil wouldn't go to
Speaker 2: Venice because there was a beach close by.
Speaker 4: Like he was like mad about it, all right, brouh.
Speaker 2: As he entered adolescent, he lost weight dramatically, and he
Speaker 2: became notably small and slight in stature. Instead of solving
Speaker 2: his insecurities, this transformation reinforced them. He remained physically unimposing,
Speaker 2: ill suited for sports, and deeply self conscious about his
Speaker 2: appearance and masculinity. As an adult, he would always joke that,
Speaker 2: like when they were picking sports teams that he was he.
Speaker 4: Wanted to be the manager.
Speaker 2: I'm the manager of the team today, you know, like
Speaker 2: right from because he's like, I'm not gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 2: play sports.
Speaker 4: Is ridiculous.
Speaker 3: What a weird little guy.
Speaker 2: When Phil was nine years old, his father, Benjamin Specter,
Speaker 2: died by suicide. Oh yeah, we are going to have
Speaker 2: some classic bastard style empathy to start off our show today.
Speaker 1: He's having a difficult start of things.
Speaker 4: Yes, he's had it, he's had it rough.
Speaker 1: I'm sure this won't make him a monster.
Speaker 4: Spoiler alert.
Speaker 2: Uh, his dad killed himself, So basically the stories.
Speaker 4: His dad left, left the factory.
Speaker 2: He was like a metal worker, and he left the
Speaker 2: factory and started driving home and just parked a couple
Speaker 2: of blocks away, put a hose in his tailpipe and
Speaker 2: started sucking on some carbon monoxide fumes in his uh,
Speaker 2: in his car. Yeah, and they don't know, they don't
Speaker 2: really even know why he did it, Like he had
Speaker 2: financial stress, but you know he was done.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It was the right time for that to be a
Speaker 2: normal thing, you know, uh, financial stress, business failures, depression,
Speaker 2: they've all been cited possible mental illness as well, Like
Speaker 2: there seems to be a very strong prevalence of that
Speaker 2: in Phil's life. Whatever the cause, the event shattered the
Speaker 2: whole family, right, so Bertha Specter becomes the central force
Speaker 2: in Phil's life, tightening a grip on her son's emotional
Speaker 2: and developmental trajectory. Alongside it was Phil's older sister, Shirley,
Speaker 2: who would exhibit as much control over his issues over
Speaker 2: Phil as his mother did. Both of them would emotionally
Speaker 2: abuse Phil often. His mother would often disparage his father
Speaker 2: and blame young Phil for his death. So she's like
Speaker 2: over there, like, your your dad killed himself. Because of you.
Speaker 2: Before you, he was happy, and then you came along,
Speaker 2: and then he killed.
Speaker 1: Him, and the best thing for kids, right, giving you
Speaker 1: that sense of agency, and you killed your dad, and
Speaker 1: you anything you put your mind to, including kill your parents,
Speaker 1: which you already did, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very impressive, bro, I couldn't kill my parents, all right.
Speaker 2: So she treated his father's death as a source of
Speaker 2: family shame as well too, So it was like she
Speaker 2: never told the truth about it to anybody, Like if
Speaker 2: she met somebody and they're like, oh, oh, he's off
Speaker 2: in Europe on business, or he died in the war.
Speaker 2: Like she's always like just making up other things and
Speaker 2: not saying, oh, yeah, he, you know, killed himself for whatever,
Speaker 2: which I mean, I guess I kind of.
Speaker 4: Understand, you know.
Speaker 2: It's not like I'm like, yeah, dude, mom, step mom
Speaker 2: killed herself, which is facts, you know.
Speaker 4: I guess I just did announce it to the world. Nevermind.
Speaker 2: So yeah, obviously not a great start to life. He's
Speaker 2: fall he's frail, he's his dad kills himself. His mom
Speaker 2: and his sister are both super possessive and controlling over him.
Speaker 2: Pretty bastard'sy start to the story. Not long After Benjamin's death,
Speaker 2: Bertha relocated the family across the country to Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: This is where Phil decides he absolutely hates being called
Speaker 2: Harvey and he starts going.
Speaker 4: By his middle name Phil Cool.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: The move placed them in the predominantly Jewish neighborhood of Fairfax,
Speaker 2: which this is just a stupid little aside, but all
Speaker 2: the kids called it, like in the neighborhoods called it
Speaker 2: fairy facts because it was like like.
Speaker 4: The weakest school around.
Speaker 2: They were like, so he's like the he's like the
Speaker 2: weakest kid at the weakest school.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, they're.
Speaker 1: Calling his school. They're basically calling his school gay, and
Speaker 1: like the parlance of the times.
Speaker 3: She was absolutely not true when I was in high
Speaker 3: school because Fairfax beat our ass at basketball.
Speaker 1: It's good to hear the thing.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's turns out money does something
Speaker 2: long term shocking. So Phil struggled to make friends outside
Speaker 2: a small circle of family and school acquaintances, and he
Speaker 2: remains socially awkward and intensely sensitive and deeply dependent on
Speaker 2: maternal approval, obviously on account of his mom and the
Speaker 2: way she is.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the mommy is his only.
Speaker 2: Advancement into social normalcy came as a result of his musicianship.
Speaker 2: He was said to be able to play any song
Speaker 2: that you heard on the hear it on the radio
Speaker 2: and could play it immediately like he could just drew start,
Speaker 2: like playing along before the song even finished.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: During this time, Phil found himself his first real girlfriend,
Speaker 2: a girl named Donna Cass Donna believed. Donna recalled Phil
Speaker 2: being very intelligent but intensely possessive. He would call to
Speaker 2: places he believed she was and question the people there
Speaker 2: about her whereabouts, and when he found her, he would
Speaker 2: grill her about what she'd been doing. Right, She said
Speaker 2: she believes this was his nature because it was what
Speaker 2: Bertha and Shirley did to him whenever he was at home. Right,
Speaker 2: she said, this is from Breaking Down the Wall Sound.
Speaker 2: By the way, this will be my primary source for
Speaker 2: almost everything. Nick Brown wrote an amazing book, Breaking Down
Speaker 2: the Wall of Sound.
Speaker 4: It's really really good.
Speaker 2: We'll touch on some stuff about it later, but that
Speaker 2: and Ronnie Spector's book, which was Be My Baby, which
Speaker 2: is amazing. I highly recommend reading the audio or hearing
Speaker 2: the audio book of that because it's narrated by Rosie Perez.
Speaker 2: Which is, oh my god. Yeah, it's amazing to listen
Speaker 2: to Rosie Perez narrate this whole story because she's like,
Speaker 2: you know, she's like, you know, she's got that whole thing.
Speaker 4: It's amazing. It's really good.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: From breaking down the Wall of Sound quote to Donna,
Speaker 2: it was as if Bertha and Shirley saw her as
Speaker 2: a rival for Phil's affections, who was trying to steal
Speaker 2: him away from them. She says, I always felt they
Speaker 2: were in love with him or something. They treated him
Speaker 2: like he was a god. They protected him, and they
Speaker 2: wanted to protect him from me weird. So so this
Speaker 2: is like fifteen, sixteen years old, he's already intensely like
Speaker 2: they barely even had phones, and this dude is calling around,
Speaker 2: checking on his girlfriend everywhere she goes and like making
Speaker 2: sure her story matches at like, you know, into like
Speaker 2: fifteen right, unhinged. I think it's you know, yeah, Well,
Speaker 2: and here's the thing is this is something that I
Speaker 2: think is a lot of musicians are weirdos.
Speaker 4: Right, It's like there's a certain thing that goes along.
Speaker 2: With being a weirdo and being like that kind of
Speaker 2: musical genius that people can like that you can hear
Speaker 2: a song and you know, and play it the first
Speaker 2: time you heard it, right, there's something that's like kind
Speaker 2: of hand in hand with the two personalities that kind
Speaker 2: of seem to go together a lot of times. So
Speaker 2: it's not weird to be weird, right, It's not weird
Speaker 2: to be small, it's not weird to be skinny. It's like,
Speaker 2: I know a lot of those people in the music industry,
Speaker 2: but it is weird to be possessive and and shitty,
Speaker 2: you know, and like and treat you know, and have
Speaker 2: a pattern against women, which we'll see in this in
Speaker 2: this whole thing. So during his teenage years in Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: Specter became obsessed with guitars. Barney Kessel one of the
Speaker 2: most respected and accomplished session musicians working in the recording industry.
Speaker 2: Kessel was a jazz guitarist, but it will often go
Speaker 2: on to play pop hits of the day and eventually
Speaker 2: became part of the legendary Wrecking Crew. If you know
Speaker 2: about out Hollywood music in this time, the Wrecking Crew
Speaker 2: is everything they wrote, they played on every single song
Speaker 2: in the late fifties and early sixties all the way
Speaker 2: to the seventies pretty much.
Speaker 4: They were the band you heard in the back of it.
Speaker 2: So Phil respected in both for his mastery of jazz
Speaker 2: and his seamless transition to other genres. At one point,
Speaker 2: Specter was given the opportunity to meet his idol. The
Speaker 2: meeting did not unfold as he had imagined. Bertha his
Speaker 2: mother insisted on accompanying him during the conversation with his idol.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Bertha, she does it.
Speaker 5: Man.
Speaker 2: During the conversation, she begins questioning Kessel about career prospects,
Speaker 2: financial stability, practical viability, like a career in music, all
Speaker 2: this stuff. It's like like yeah, He's like he's there.
Speaker 2: He's like, yeah, dude, I get to meet this guitarist,
Speaker 2: this legend. And she's like, well, what's the money like
Speaker 2: in the job? You know, Like she's just taking over
Speaker 2: control of this whole conversation, and Phil's just so embarrassed.
Speaker 2: Like this goes from being like, Oh, I get to
Speaker 2: meet my hero and to like, I'm just really embarrassed.
Speaker 2: I'm really embarrassed that I'm sitting here having this conversation
Speaker 2: and this is just this is his mom. His mom
Speaker 2: is in control of his life at all times. He's
Speaker 2: always he's always stuck with that.
Speaker 1: That's yeah, Okay, I did not realize, like knowing about
Speaker 1: like the later stage of Phil Spector's life, somewhat I
Speaker 1: did not realize he started out dominated by his mom
Speaker 1: to such an extent that.
Speaker 4: Yes, that does. It ain't a scan, it does kind
Speaker 4: of scan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I mean it's not always true, right,
Speaker 2: It's like a lot of times, a lot of times
Speaker 2: people are just shitty people, right, But a lot of times,
Speaker 2: if you look into it, it is kind of like
Speaker 2: when your dad when you're little, like, oh, he's just
Speaker 2: beating you up because he's got a shitty home life
Speaker 2: and he's trying to So a lot of sometimes that
Speaker 2: is true.
Speaker 4: Sometimes they're just bullies, you know.
Speaker 2: But sometimes they just they got a shitty home life
Speaker 2: and they're dealing with something that you can't possibly understand.
Speaker 2: So by the mid nineteen fifties, Specter began forming musical
Speaker 2: groups with classmates and neighborhood friends. Eventually, he helped create
Speaker 2: a vocal trio called the Teddy Bears, consisting of Phil
Speaker 2: and That Climbard and Marshall leab Teddy. The group formed
Speaker 2: the Teddy Bears, Yeah and that's such a nineteen fifties
Speaker 2: name too, Yeah, you know, yeah it is.
Speaker 4: So the group formed through teenage friendships.
Speaker 2: They all went to the same school or whatever, and
Speaker 2: like they knew each other and so it was like
Speaker 2: just a very high school organic situation, right. But then
Speaker 2: Phil's sister Shirley forced her way into the.
Speaker 4: Band as a manager.
Speaker 2: Right, She like immediately is like, as soon as they
Speaker 2: start having any success whatsoever, she forces her way into
Speaker 2: into the whole situation as the manager. And then when
Speaker 2: Phil's like, no, I don't want you to be in
Speaker 2: a managery, Mom's like, let him be the manager, pel,
Speaker 2: you know, like immediately, yeah, immediately like takes his sister's side.
Speaker 2: So and she has no idea what she's doing, of course,
Speaker 2: so like she makes horrible decisions all over the place.
Speaker 2: She's doing dumb stuff. But Phil is still He's the
Speaker 2: architect of this whole thing. And he he writes this
Speaker 2: amazing song right in nineteen fifty eight, well still in
Speaker 2: high school, Spector wrote and produce a song title to
Speaker 2: Know Him is to Love Him. This is where I'll
Speaker 2: make my first entry and do evidence of Phil was
Speaker 2: seriously fucked up, Like I had some fuck that was.
Speaker 2: He was fucked up, right, This is where we're gonna
Speaker 2: get into. Phil was seriously fucked up, Sophie, can you
Speaker 2: show Robert the image of the gravestone there?
Speaker 1: Yep, Okay, I'm saying it. Yeah. Ben Spector April twentieth,
Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine, father husband, Yeah, hell yeah, brilliant. To
Speaker 1: know him was to love him?
Speaker 2: What was that? The name of Phil's song there was
Speaker 2: To know him is to love him?
Speaker 4: Philo.
Speaker 1: Phil wrote, he doesn't have daddy issues. He's doing good.
Speaker 1: He's fine.
Speaker 2: Phil. Phil wrote a song and he talks later. He says,
Speaker 2: this is this song is about death. You know, this
Speaker 2: is a song about death, and nobody noticed because it's
Speaker 2: framed in the nineteen fifties kind of you know.
Speaker 4: To no, no.
Speaker 2: Yes, very silly, but he had you know, nobody else
Speaker 2: gets it. But if you listen to it, it's like, oh, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3: You were kind of like a huge fucking hit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a huge hit. It was a huge hit.
Speaker 4: It's very big deal.
Speaker 2: It became a massive national hit, reaching number one on
Speaker 2: Billboard charts. Part of its success came from side Bastard's appearance.
Speaker 2: Dick Clark American Bandstand. Yes, that's right. Dick Clark is
Speaker 2: a side bastard today. I'm not going to get deep
Speaker 2: into him, but he basically invented Paola. People would pay
Speaker 2: him to put bands on American Bandstand and it because
Speaker 2: of him, like literally, like the that's what got out
Speaker 2: of control eventually and caused like the biggest, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the biggest scandals in the music industry for
Speaker 2: the longest times. Like you have to pay in order
Speaker 2: to become successful. Yeah, thanks for creating that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh so the success was astonishing, right given the band's youth.
Speaker 2: Phil is only seventeen at this time. He's a he's
Speaker 2: a baby, right, So it's it's massive. Like Sophy said,
Speaker 2: it was a number one hit across the country. It
Speaker 2: was a huge song. Even today, it's still like a
Speaker 2: kind of a big song like that. I looked up
Speaker 2: and had like a couple hundred million streams or something.
Speaker 2: It was insane. This experience kind of cemented because he
Speaker 2: was the architect of this whole thing. He was the
Speaker 2: boss of this whole situation. So this kind of cemented
Speaker 2: like his like dominance in the studio. This is what
Speaker 2: made him want to He was the producer on it.
Speaker 2: At seventeen years old, you have a number one hit
Speaker 2: in the country, your ego is probably gonna go a
Speaker 2: little yeah, you know, yeah, it's certainly not so. But
Speaker 2: this is where I'm gonna hit item number two. I
Speaker 2: Phil Spector was seriously fucked up.
Speaker 3: But before you do that, as the boss and the
Speaker 3: producer of this podcast, you know what time it is.
Speaker 2: Oh shit is advertised or some advertisse and you.
Speaker 1: Know what none of our sponsors did is raise Phil Spector.
Speaker 1: I feel confident saying that none of our advertisers helped
Speaker 1: helped raise Phil Spector fairly certain I believe it.
Speaker 4: I was really.
Speaker 3: Curious where you were going with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're back. Ah boy. I sure love those
Speaker 1: ads from I don't know, probably the Portland Police Bureau
Speaker 1: and then some AI company.
Speaker 4: I wish you'd get sponsored by a whiskey company. That
Speaker 4: would be nice.
Speaker 1: No, I wish I'll take your whiskey. I'll tell people
Speaker 1: to drink it. I have no problem telling people, you know,
Speaker 1: to to drink. There's no health consequences to that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a lot healthier than gambling.
Speaker 2: I actually tried it, like I was doing social media
Speaker 2: for a little while where I was doing cocktails with
Speaker 2: greasy like as like a thing, hoping like some company
Speaker 2: would be like, hey, this guy's do an alcoholic content.
Speaker 4: Work though that was the only reason to do it.
Speaker 2: I literally just was like some free booze, you know, like,
Speaker 2: let's subsidize this control.
Speaker 1: You're just you're just throwing out like a fishing line
Speaker 1: and hoping a brand picks up so you can drink
Speaker 1: for free.
Speaker 4: That's all I've ever wanted.
Speaker 1: That's how the internet works. Now, all right, where are we?
Speaker 2: All right? So, while on tour, Specter was allegedly cornered
Speaker 2: by hostile individuals who mocked and humiliated him about being short,
Speaker 2: being a nerd, being being short and nerdy, I mean.
Speaker 1: Just being short and having glasses will cause you some
Speaker 1: serious shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so keep in mind too, like this is important.
Speaker 4: He at adulthood was probably only like.
Speaker 2: Five three, Like he did not I say he was little, geez,
Speaker 2: he was real little, right, So, like, we don't know
Speaker 2: if this story is true. It's very mythological bullshit type stuff.
Speaker 2: But we don't know if this story is true, but
Speaker 2: it absolutely if it is true, it makes a lot
Speaker 2: of sense about who he would later become he was
Speaker 2: physically restrained and urinated on during the encounter. The precise
Speaker 2: details vary depending on the source, and it's like kind
Speaker 2: of multiple biographies reference it.
Speaker 4: He said it. He told this story later on.
Speaker 1: He's like ganged up on by a bunch of guys
Speaker 1: outside of a show who are making fun of him
Speaker 1: because he's a short, little nerd, and they like hold
Speaker 1: him down and piss on him.
Speaker 2: It sounds like I think he's in the bathroom when
Speaker 2: it happens. You like, like he goes in to go
Speaker 2: to the bathroom after a show and they like attack
Speaker 2: him in the bathroom or whatever. It's very like nineties
Speaker 2: like teen high school movie type situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's a hairy type deal. If heathers or
Speaker 1: something like that's intense bullying. Yeah, they're pissing you.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: If the story is accurate, it appears to have deeply
Speaker 2: scarred him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, would Yeah, that's pretty bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you think, like imagine where he's at
Speaker 2: in this whole situation, Like he thinks he's.
Speaker 4: Like made it, like he's on top of the world.
Speaker 2: He's got a number one hit in and he's got money,
Speaker 2: he's got success. People all over the country are seeing him,
Speaker 2: come to see him play shows, and he just goes
Speaker 2: to the bathroom, like walking off stage, probably one night,
Speaker 2: and he gets jumped in the bathroom and pissed on,
Speaker 2: Like that's.
Speaker 1: Yike, Yeah, number on you. I think it's gonna make
Speaker 1: him a better guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, definitely not gonna make him a nice person.
Speaker 2: All right. So, despite the group's success, fractures quickly appeared
Speaker 2: within the Teddy Bears, and that Klimbard used her earnings
Speaker 2: from the hit record to purchase a car, and not
Speaker 2: long afterwards, she was involved in a serious accident that
Speaker 2: left her hospitalized for an extended period. So she gets
Speaker 2: a bunch of money, she gets a nice car.
Speaker 1: She got one of those six fifty sixties cars. That's
Speaker 1: just it's steel. There's no seat belts the car. All
Speaker 1: of the force of the impact is transferred to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably pre dating like like the National Traffic Safety
Speaker 2: Board like requiring seatbelts by like twenty years.
Speaker 4: At this point, I feel, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: So she gets in this horrible accident, and this is
Speaker 2: kind of the nail in the coffin for the group.
Speaker 2: But you know, she's and that says that, well, she's
Speaker 2: in the hospital, she gets in this horrible accident, and
Speaker 2: Phil doesn't call her or come by or anything. He
Speaker 2: just that's it. That's just the end. She just he
Speaker 2: just leaves, He just goes away, and that's it. There's
Speaker 2: no band anymore, you know. So they're like high school friends.
Speaker 2: This is very strange, you know, to like, uh see
Speaker 2: to get this, you know, this far successful with your
Speaker 2: high school friends. And there's no incident and it's not
Speaker 2: like they didn't get along or anything like that. They
Speaker 2: were all friends. And then he was just like, deuces,
Speaker 2: I'm out of here.
Speaker 3: Well do you think it like she could no longer
Speaker 3: provide use to him? You think it was something like that,
Speaker 3: or we really can't even speculate.
Speaker 2: I think I think you're right on the path, Sophie.
Speaker 2: I think you will find as we continue on. Anytime
Speaker 2: somebody he stops serving their their usefulness to him, Phil
Speaker 2: is done with him.
Speaker 4: He just wipes them from his life.
Speaker 6: Very friends, which spoiler alert, is the next person we're
Speaker 6: going to talk about, Lester Sill Leicester sil This is
Speaker 6: right after this time or during this time, and this
Speaker 6: is when he made friends and a partnership with Lester Sill.
Speaker 2: Lester Still was a decorated World War Two veteran who
Speaker 2: fought in the Battle of the Bulch. He made his
Speaker 2: way into the music industry after that. And despite what
Speaker 2: you think, actually the nicest guy. Everybody's like, oh dude,
Speaker 2: Susie walks in the room, he's the best. I love
Speaker 2: this guy, you know, like this is like this is
Speaker 2: like if.
Speaker 1: You lived through the Battle of the Bulge, it's hard
Speaker 1: to get like bent out of shape about the little things.
Speaker 4: One would assume.
Speaker 2: But also I met a lot of very disgruntled war
Speaker 2: veterans in my time, and I've been like, why are
Speaker 2: you guys so mad? Bro, just like I don't know,
Speaker 2: get an addiction that helps out or something.
Speaker 1: Get an addiction. That's always my advice to be.
Speaker 2: So Lester took a liking to Phil and assumed a
Speaker 2: fatherly role in his life. So uh, he like really
Speaker 2: does step into Phil's life. Him and Bertha and Phil
Speaker 2: start having problems at home. He lets Phil move in
Speaker 2: with him. You know.
Speaker 4: Uh. He gives them connections, he tell he introduces them
Speaker 4: to people.
Speaker 2: He tells everybody, this is this this killer of producer Phil,
Speaker 2: Like he just like helping him out anywhere. And he
Speaker 2: even sends him to Phoenix. I believe it was to
Speaker 2: meet Lee Hazelwood. Lee Hazelwood at this time is a
Speaker 2: really successful writer. He would later go on to write, Uh,
Speaker 2: these boots are made for walking, which oh my girl,
Speaker 2: said Sinatra, She's so beautiful.
Speaker 1: That's one of the finest achievements of our species.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that song.
Speaker 2: So he sends him to hang out with Lee Hazelwood,
Speaker 2: and Lee Hazelwood hates him. Hazelwood, It's like this motherfucker
Speaker 2: won't stop asking questions. He he's always like doing stuff.
Speaker 2: He's like he's weird and he's just always around me and.
Speaker 4: I don't like him.
Speaker 2: And and he tells him never bring him back to
Speaker 2: my studio.
Speaker 4: I never want to see that guy again.
Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, So so this is the kind of seems
Speaker 2: like a pattern as we'll start to like emerge here.
Speaker 4: Is that like either you love Phil or you are
Speaker 4: like okay.
Speaker 3: Guy, Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like yeah, that guy's the worst. So after this,
Speaker 2: he moves on to a relationship with another girl. So
Speaker 2: he breaks up with Donna cass or whatever. He moves
Speaker 2: on to a relationship with another girl, Lynn Castle, but
Speaker 2: it was short lived, as she couldn't stand as incessant
Speaker 2: to interrogations. This quote, his behavior got too friggin crazy, too,
Speaker 2: absolutely crazy.
Speaker 4: Where are you what are you doing? Where are you going? Controlling?
Speaker 1: So yeah, that sounds right.
Speaker 2: So this is clearly a pattern. He is absolutely controlling.
Speaker 2: He's like definitely trying to like, uh.
Speaker 1: That's basically what I knew about Phil Spectra going into
Speaker 1: this is that he was like super controlling in his
Speaker 1: professional and personal relationships. Yeah, that's kind of all I know.
Speaker 4: And that is that is exactly it.
Speaker 2: And we'll we'll we'll get more into like this professional
Speaker 2: side of this too, but it is it is alarming early,
Speaker 2: you know, and like Sophie, we brought this up earlier.
Speaker 2: It is like it's like letting people get away with stuff,
Speaker 2: and how long can they get away with it? You know?
Speaker 2: And yeah, and it seems like, I mean, it's the fifties,
Speaker 2: so let's be fair, like this is still the time
Speaker 2: where or like early sixties. This is definitely the time
Speaker 2: where like like jokes on TV were like your wife
Speaker 2: was talking to watch give her the old one four
Speaker 2: of the eye, you know, like right, you know, like
Speaker 2: the honeymooners are like actively like like to the moon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, bang zoom straight. It's it's like an aspect of
Speaker 1: like yeah, because it's just like so common and universal
Speaker 1: at the time.
Speaker 3: Right, I hear somebody else do an old timey voice
Speaker 3: besides Robert, because.
Speaker 4: Robert is so good straight moon as that's good.
Speaker 1: I love Archie Bunkers.
Speaker 4: Shit, it's great you.
Speaker 1: It is two different It's interesting the two different kinds
Speaker 1: of reactions to Oh, I keep like doing things I'm
Speaker 1: not supposed to be doing and I haven't gotten in
Speaker 1: trouble yet because like, the two reactions are the one
Speaker 1: the one I have had about things that I won't
Speaker 1: talk about on air, where at a certain point, more
Speaker 1: than whatever the statute of limitations as it go, I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm gonna stop doing this. Done this too
Speaker 1: many times. I'm not gonna keep taking this risk anymore.
Speaker 1: Like I've gotten lucky, but I feel like I'm gonna
Speaker 1: stop rolling the dice on this.
Speaker 2: I did. I feel the exact same way every time
Speaker 2: my registration on my car goes more than eight months
Speaker 2: out of date, when I'm like, all right, eight months,
Speaker 2: that's a long time.
Speaker 1: To be There's three years I didn't register in my car, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: stuff like that where it's like that probably now I'm
Speaker 1: gonna were shoplifting, where it's like I've had enough money
Speaker 1: now I'm not gonna keep taking the risk. And then
Speaker 1: other people who are like, no one's called me on
Speaker 1: my shit, guess I'm gonna get even crazier. And then
Speaker 1: they become the president.
Speaker 2: No reason to stop now, all right, So spoiler alert
Speaker 2: on Phil. He doesn't get any better. This is right,
Speaker 2: this is his pattern. He keeps going, but they do
Speaker 2: break up. Him and Land break up, and he starts
Speaker 2: expressing desire to relocate back to.
Speaker 4: New York City.
Speaker 2: New York offered something that he really wanted, which was
Speaker 2: proximity to a legitimacy. In New York at the time,
Speaker 2: there is a building called the Brill Building, and we're
Speaker 2: gonna tell you, well, I'll just read because it's better
Speaker 2: to read than in summarize. I think Spector quickly embedded
Speaker 2: himself in the Brill Building ecosystem, the highly competitive songwriting
Speaker 2: and production factory that produced some of the most influential
Speaker 2: pop music of the era. The environment was famously ruthless.
Speaker 2: Young writers turned out songs daily competing for placement with
Speaker 2: artists and labels. Success required speed, instinct, and relentless self promotion.
Speaker 2: Spector thrived creatively, but developed a reputation almost immediately for opportunism.
Speaker 2: So I just read this thing where it's like, hey,
Speaker 2: everybody's cutthroat up in this shit, and then it's like,
Speaker 2: Specter immediately gets a reputation for being opportunistic in a
Speaker 2: cutthroat building. To be opportunistic, to be like that in
Speaker 2: a cutthroat.
Speaker 1: You definitely, you know, in the music industry, to be
Speaker 1: a cutthroat for people to be like, hey, guy is
Speaker 1: fucking ruthless? Is something? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Multiple collaborators from this period later accused him of aggressively
Speaker 2: positioning himself for credit and financial participation in projects that
Speaker 2: were often collaborative efforts. There were recurring stories of Specter
Speaker 2: inserting himself into songwriting or production roles and minimizing the
Speaker 2: contributions of others once success became likely. In some cases,
Speaker 2: he was accused of leaving collaborators off credits entirely, a
Speaker 2: move that not only deprived them of recognition but also
Speaker 2: cut them out of long term royalty income.
Speaker 4: So he's he's already just ruthless.
Speaker 2: So there's something that I want to bring up here,
Speaker 2: which is about the way that writing works, or writing
Speaker 2: a song works, right, which is like the deal is
Speaker 2: if there is no prior agreement, all right, if two
Speaker 2: people just walk into a room and write a song together.
Speaker 1: Right, it is, And they didn't fIF not as right
Speaker 1: and not as part of a pre existing business arrangement or.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah they did, not no one specified like hey,
Speaker 2: spontaneous art. Yes, if nothing is specified, it is a
Speaker 2: fifty to fifty split, doesn't matter if one person wrote
Speaker 2: one word and the other wrote the entire song and all.
Speaker 2: He was like, if you come into that create, if
Speaker 2: it's three people, it's thirty three to third. If it's
Speaker 2: for it's twenty five percent. Unless you have already agreed
Speaker 2: to something. That's what the legal split is for this
Speaker 2: whole situation. So for him to come into like sessions
Speaker 2: and be like jumping right on, it's like it's like
Speaker 2: I've seen this before, Like somebody walks in the room
Speaker 2: and starts suggesting things, and you're just like, he just
Speaker 2: took a portion of my my cut of this song,
Speaker 2: and your suggestions were things I was gonna do anyways,
Speaker 2: that's kind of annoying, you know. It's like, it's really
Speaker 2: easy to finagle in this time period, especially so a
Speaker 2: fellow writer named Beverly Ross, who helped Phil, recalled his
Speaker 2: promises to bring her with him if he were to
Speaker 2: ever get into the right rooms, but he renegged immediately
Speaker 2: upon being granted opportunities. She saw Phil as a user,
Speaker 2: and she was eventually offered a staff job, but she
Speaker 2: declined it because she would have to see Phil every day.
Speaker 2: So this woman literally turns down a successful, money paying
Speaker 2: job writing at the Brill Building because she was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'd have to see Phil every day and he is cold.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be around him. He's the worst, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: he's sketchy.
Speaker 3: I respected a man could be that annoying that You're like,
Speaker 3: absolutely not.
Speaker 1: I want this is not worth the job.
Speaker 3: The job is not worth my peace of mind. Please
Speaker 3: stay away from me.
Speaker 1: You should all have self respect.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah really, but you know twenty six man, it's
Speaker 2: hard man's.
Speaker 4: Right now, all right? Uh so, uh, this is from
Speaker 4: her quote.
Speaker 2: I was so gun shy of ever becoming vulnerable to
Speaker 2: someone who'd betrayed me like that, because Phil practically killed
Speaker 2: me emotionally. I figured I wasn't smart enough to handle
Speaker 2: the part of his personality that I understand. It was
Speaker 2: like Phil was born without a conscience and I was
Speaker 2: his victim. He could be so ruthless. Wow, so seemingly
Speaker 2: we have heard only from women that this is an issue, right,
Speaker 2: It's like this does not seem to be very much
Speaker 2: a male issue.
Speaker 4: This is asistent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, women around him have to feel the breath. And
Speaker 2: you know, I mean again not to like give anybody
Speaker 2: an out or any empathy for somebody who's a shitty
Speaker 2: person because like shitty acts or shitty acts and it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter.
Speaker 4: But you can see like this is kind.
Speaker 2: Of like an emotional and you know, reaction to his
Speaker 2: mother and his sister pushing him, controlling him.
Speaker 1: So too, Yeah, isn't absolution.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'm going to talk about this later.
Speaker 2: But so Phil, whenever he went to work at the
Speaker 2: Brill Building after he got his money from the Teddy Bears, right,
Speaker 2: he made a lot of money, he had to actually take.
Speaker 4: His mother to court.
Speaker 2: I know, Uh, he had to take his mother to
Speaker 2: court to get his money because even as like a teenager,
Speaker 2: his mom was like, no, he can't you can't, you
Speaker 2: can't be trusted, you'll leave us, you won't let us
Speaker 2: have any money, you won't take care of us. And
Speaker 2: so he's basically even like going into adulthood, he's having
Speaker 2: to fight his mom in court over his own money
Speaker 2: because of the way that you know, because the way
Speaker 2: that she is, the controlling nature of her and everything.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's like he's he's doing that while
Speaker 2: also controlling other people and and and you know, doing
Speaker 2: shitty things to other women.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean that. Yeah, so it's in part
Speaker 1: just kind of his revenge based on his his shitty mom.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's just taking it out on other people.
Speaker 1: Well also just he grew up learning that, like that's
Speaker 1: what you do to people, Like you can either be
Speaker 1: controlled or controlling. Yes, I'll controlling. Yeah sure.
Speaker 2: So so yeah, so being cutthroat, like we said, being
Speaker 2: cutthroat isn't weird in the music industry, Like, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that are famous for their
Speaker 2: like ruthless activities inside the music industry, especially in the
Speaker 2: old days or whatever. But to be in a cutthroat
Speaker 2: environment and be the cuttiest, throatiest person of that environment
Speaker 2: is like okay, like everybody is like, no, Phil is
Speaker 2: the worst of all of them, Like, you know, everybody,
Speaker 2: everybody in the building hates him, nobody trusts him. He
Speaker 2: gets a reputation from just being like the dude that
Speaker 2: would show up all the time and just like jump
Speaker 2: in on things and take control and on all this stuff.
Speaker 4: People don't like him.
Speaker 2: So one of the most important relationship spectro form during
Speaker 2: this New York period was with legendary songwriting production Durg
Speaker 2: Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller. Liber and Stoller were already
Speaker 2: giants of the early rock and rhythm and blues era,
Speaker 2: and we're responsible for shaping hits artists like Elvis Presley,
Speaker 2: the Coasters, like numerous other artists. They were architects of
Speaker 2: the modern producer model, combining songwriting and arrangement and studio
Speaker 2: direction into a single creative authority. At this point, like
Speaker 2: music is changing really fast at this point, you know,
Speaker 2: because the technology is changing, the way that people operate
Speaker 2: is changing. It went from being like, oh, this is
Speaker 2: a band that plays this music to now like we
Speaker 2: got a creative team. All these people are writing this
Speaker 2: stuff and like also to this is really important.
Speaker 4: This is the first.
Speaker 2: Time in musical history that music goes from being marketed
Speaker 2: to adults to being marketed to teenagers. Oh right, yeah,
Speaker 2: because prior to this, there has never been.
Speaker 4: Teenagers with money, you know, like teenagers.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes, as a teenager, you're like you were just
Speaker 1: working in the minds and handing money to your parents
Speaker 1: so that they buy starvation with it. Yeah, you have
Speaker 1: forward to starve to death.
Speaker 2: So this is the first time in all of recorded
Speaker 2: history basically that teenagers become a market right, And this
Speaker 2: is really important to this whole overview of like where
Speaker 2: where the money comes from, and how they market to
Speaker 2: things and how they even write a song. Like, so
Speaker 2: it went from being like, okay, a band does all
Speaker 2: this to like a group of guys would get together
Speaker 2: in a room and start being like, okay, cool, Like
Speaker 2: I wrote this song, I was gonna give it to
Speaker 2: this person, but you know, we should give it to
Speaker 2: this person. And that's why in this time you'll see
Speaker 2: a lot of like, you know, like Aretha Franklin songs
Speaker 2: that are also Otis Redding songs later or whatever. You know,
Speaker 2: like people would just write a song and give it
Speaker 2: to an artist, and then anybody who liked that song
Speaker 2: would also cover it because the money went back to
Speaker 2: the publishing.
Speaker 4: Right, the performance is a minimum amount of the money.
Speaker 4: The publishing is the money.
Speaker 2: So these guys would keep giving these songs to other people,
Speaker 2: other artists and be like, you should do this song.
Speaker 4: And it just became normalized to do that.
Speaker 2: So the the strength of the music industry went from
Speaker 2: being bands to being producers. Right, and this is where
Speaker 2: Phil kind of slams hard into the industry. All right,
Speaker 2: so he falls in like he falls in with these
Speaker 2: guys liber and Stoller, who are like the guys of
Speaker 2: the time. They are the Max Martin's or whatever famous producer,
Speaker 2: the Kenny Beats, or the Doctor Dre's or the whatever
Speaker 2: you love. They are that of this time, and Specter
Speaker 2: admired them intensely. He started their recording techniques, their business strategies,
Speaker 2: and their ability to shape artist identities from behind the glass.
Speaker 2: In many ways, liber and Stoller provided in Specter with
Speaker 2: a blueprint for the career he wanted to build. Despite
Speaker 2: recognizing his talent. However, liber and Stoller never fully trusted him.
Speaker 2: Accounts from associates and later biographies described them as simultaneously
Speaker 2: impressed by spector's musical talents and wary of his personality.
Speaker 2: He was ambitious, obsessive, and socially abrasive. He pushed himself
Speaker 2: into rooms he had not been invited into. He demanded
Speaker 2: opportunities he had not yet earned. He hovered around sessions,
Speaker 2: absorbing information and inserting suggestions, persistently trying to attach himself
Speaker 2: to projects. But they kept they kept giving him chances. Right.
Speaker 2: Part of this was practical, practical because he was actually
Speaker 2: he was good.
Speaker 4: He was very good musically talented.
Speaker 2: Yes, and so it's like, man, you ever worked with
Speaker 2: somebody who's good at their job but a horrible person,
Speaker 2: Like we've all been there, right.
Speaker 5: Right, yeah, and you're like, ah, specters come to the studios,
Speaker 5: Yeah we're gonna write, but yeah, we're gonna write a.
Speaker 4: Banger, but.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Their willingness to tolerate him also reflected that, you know, uh,
Speaker 2: he represents the next step, like what I was just
Speaker 2: talking about, He's the next step in the evolutiontionary ladder
Speaker 2: of working in the music industry.
Speaker 4: You know, it's like.
Speaker 2: He's he is the producer model that will become the
Speaker 2: tour de force in the industry.
Speaker 1: That's uh, yeah, that's that's that's a good note. I
Speaker 1: do want to say, you know what I'm willing to
Speaker 1: settle for will.
Speaker 2: Uh billions of dollars. I only want to becoming for
Speaker 2: the ragor. And I'm sure I know, I actually know
Speaker 2: that you do get you get billions of dollars from
Speaker 2: these ads, right.
Speaker 1: I do. I do billions of every every single ad.
Speaker 2: And there's no healthcare given to any of your employees.
Speaker 2: You are just like you are Jeff Bezos. Man.
Speaker 1: I actually bought Bezos' yacht just to sink, so that
Speaker 1: my yacht will avoid sinking the same way.
Speaker 2: You know, I've heard about that you're doing. I went, yeah,
Speaker 2: don't sleep on that couch as well.
Speaker 3: I'm saying, anyways.
Speaker 1: Let's all think about what diseases you get from Jeff
Speaker 1: Bezos's yacht couch and here some mad Yeah we're back.
Speaker 1: The answer was gonna rhea.
Speaker 4: All right, all right.
Speaker 2: So this is where Phil starts really developing his understanding
Speaker 2: of how records are made. How I mean, this is
Speaker 2: a learning environment. This is the professional like environment of
Speaker 2: writers in New York. This is his like high school
Speaker 2: or college or whatever.
Speaker 4: This is his moment.
Speaker 2: He absorbs all that, and he starts really understanding like
Speaker 2: the recording studio and the process of recording is it
Speaker 2: is like the music itself, the music comes from the
Speaker 2: environment that this stuff is made in as much as
Speaker 2: anything else. And this is kind of like a new
Speaker 2: concept because you know, music is we're in the sixties
Speaker 2: right now, right we're in the sixties. We only really
Speaker 2: started having like reasonable sounding recording recorded music like ten
Speaker 2: years prior to this, before anything like that, before ten years,
Speaker 2: like we only got everybody say thank you to Adolf
Speaker 2: Hitler right now, thank you, ad Off without no.
Speaker 1: One of his many contribution.
Speaker 2: To the world was we got a post World War two?
Speaker 2: Do you know this about Hitler? This is actually really funny.
Speaker 1: Really because it was Huston. He famously believed and wrote
Speaker 1: about this in my comp that the best way to
Speaker 1: convince people of anything was the human voice, that the
Speaker 1: pure human voice was the best tool for influencing people.
Speaker 2: And at the time confused at the time, exactly literally
Speaker 2: he was ahead of the curve oncaster Alf Hitler.
Speaker 4: The world's first podcaster. Amazing, that's right.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like the British were all baffled at
Speaker 2: the time too, because like prior to this, Like basically
Speaker 2: they had magnetic wire recording and they had wax cylinders
Speaker 2: that they could record to right, and it was basically
Speaker 2: one shot, one kill if you liked. If you messed up,
Speaker 2: it was over right. But magnetic recording actually, and.
Speaker 4: It was cleaner.
Speaker 2: It sounded way better, like in comparison to like the
Speaker 2: old vinyls that I had, the like, it was way cleaner,
Speaker 2: it sounded more pure. And the Brits were like, how
Speaker 2: is this guy broadcasting from like eight different cities in
Speaker 2: absolute clarity? Like they're so confused at the time, they
Speaker 2: have no idea what's going on all because Hitler's over
Speaker 2: there with the only magnetic recorder.
Speaker 4: That's in the entire world.
Speaker 2: Because just turns out, basf there in Germany, who's just
Speaker 2: still a company. Congratulations, you guys made it through the
Speaker 2: entire Nazi regime and all the backlash, I you know,
Speaker 2: hats off. So without Hitler and his magnetic recording, we
Speaker 2: would not have.
Speaker 4: The music industry.
Speaker 2: They brought the GIS. The GIS brought it back in
Speaker 2: the forties, uh to America. We started tinkering with it.
Speaker 2: By late fifties. We have Les Paul and Bill Putnam
Speaker 2: basically like the gods of recording folks.
Speaker 1: If it hadn't been for Hitler, none of us would
Speaker 1: have been able to hear the Mighty Mighty boss Tones
Speaker 1: album about George Floyd And what kind of America would
Speaker 1: that be?
Speaker 2: I so desperately want to take the time five second story.
Speaker 2: I once went to a concert and you know, the
Speaker 2: guy that dances on stage and that's his only job.
Speaker 4: Somebody threw a shoe and it hit him right.
Speaker 2: In the fucking face and it took him completely out,
Speaker 2: and they stopped the concert and they're like, we're not
Speaker 2: gonna play.
Speaker 4: And somebody goes, who cares?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 2: Wow, that's my favorite Mighty Mighty boss Let's story. All right,
Speaker 2: So sorry I was on a little tangent there. Hitler
Speaker 2: gave us recording, but it's very new. Recording is very new, right,
Speaker 2: So the way that they record is changing by the day, right,
Speaker 2: It's like people are discovering new things. We go from
Speaker 2: a single track to record to so now we have
Speaker 2: two tracks and you can bounce back and forth, and
Speaker 2: now we have four tracks.
Speaker 4: And then next thing you know, they've got a.
Speaker 2: Whole console that they've made that you know, and these
Speaker 2: guys are literally building them themselves, like Bill Putnham was
Speaker 2: like building handbuilding his own consoles and everything. And so
Speaker 2: they now have some technology. It opens up the world
Speaker 2: of recording. Prior to this, if you were a band,
Speaker 2: that was the only way to record music, right, you
Speaker 2: had to stand all around this horn and everybody like
Speaker 2: make their noise, and whoever was like the loudest in
Speaker 2: the horn is the loudest. So he put the vocalist
Speaker 2: the closest, and you put the drummer away the hell back,
Speaker 2: and like, you know, you have to.
Speaker 4: It's it's complicated.
Speaker 2: It's you're so concerned with just getting a recording that
Speaker 2: you don't have really time to think about the.
Speaker 4: Artistic direction of the recording.
Speaker 2: And so this moment in history, the late fifties, early
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties, this.
Speaker 4: Is the moment that changes all of recorded music.
Speaker 2: And why obviously I'm such a big fan of this
Speaker 2: as someone who considers himself to be a stereo phil specter,
Speaker 2: you know, I absorb a lot of his music and
Speaker 2: I think that this is like how I try and
Speaker 2: portray myself and a lot of this stuff without all
Speaker 2: the you know, well, actually the same number of ex wives.
Speaker 2: That's great, we have the same number of X wives
Speaker 2: at three.
Speaker 4: We're crussing it.
Speaker 2: But without the other crimes, without the other crimes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2: So, rather than treating musicians as equal collaborator, Specter increasingly
Speaker 2: saw them as interchangeable components and a larger sonic structure.
Speaker 2: If one player failed to achieve the desired result, another
Speaker 2: could replace them. If a vocalist lacked the emotional texture
Speaker 2: he wanted, he could manipulate arrangement, echo, orchestration, reverb, all
Speaker 2: these things to compensate and evolve.
Speaker 1: Sorry, go ahead, No, this is like and it seems
Speaker 1: like this is in a lot of ways the birth
Speaker 1: of the end of music, transitioning away popular music, transitioning
Speaker 1: away from these are people who like make something like
Speaker 1: art that they want to share with people too. This
Speaker 1: is a product, and we can we can cut out
Speaker 1: pieces and slide in pieces wherever we need to percent.
Speaker 2: This is absolutely the birth of that. This is the
Speaker 2: birth of like. I am pitching this song to Ariana
Speaker 2: Grande because she might sing it great, but I don't
Speaker 2: care if Beyonce takes.
Speaker 1: Let's get bidding on this music. Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: It's no longer as much.
Speaker 2: I mean, I still think people put as much love
Speaker 2: and passion into their Sure, yeah music is always but
Speaker 2: it's we're.
Speaker 1: Saying it's nothing but bad or whatever. But it's a
Speaker 1: big change.
Speaker 4: Yes, it is a very big change. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Specter closely studied records that we're experimenting with dense
Speaker 2: layering and orchestral pop arrangements, particularly productions that emphasized emotional
Speaker 2: saturation through instrumental doubling and echo chamber effects. Songs like
Speaker 2: under the Boardwalk you know that song.
Speaker 4: If you listen to somebody.
Speaker 2: sEH, if you listen to that, you will absolutely hear
Speaker 2: what are the early you know, phrases that that Specter
Speaker 2: would draw from. It sounds basically like a Phil Spector song.
Speaker 2: It's got you know, like the orchestration is buried in there.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, the vocal is very upfront and everything,
Speaker 2: but everything else is kind of a mesh behind it,
Speaker 2: and it's not nearly there's a lot of reverb and everything.
Speaker 2: It's not nearly as clean and clear as some of
Speaker 2: like because that was the goal, right, It was like
Speaker 2: for so long they're like, we just want to make
Speaker 2: something that sounds good, and then all of a sudden
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, actually, we can make anything. So let's
Speaker 2: just make it sound crazy, let's make it sound reverby,
Speaker 2: let's do like experimentation with this stuff. So he starts
Speaker 2: to get into that. What distinguished Specter was not necessarily
Speaker 2: that he invented these techniques, but that he became obsessed
Speaker 2: with expanding them to their absolute extreme. Where earlier producers
Speaker 2: used layering to enhance song, Spector began envisioning arrangements where
Speaker 2: individual instruments disappeared into a unified emotional mass. Precision gave
Speaker 2: way to density, Clarity gave way to atmosphere. The recording
Speaker 2: was not meant to be dissected. It was meant to
Speaker 2: overwhelm you, right. And this is like the big principle
Speaker 2: of the wall of sound. Anybody who knows about Phil Spector, like, seriously,
Speaker 2: no about the wall of sound. The wall of sound
Speaker 2: was Phil Spector's creation in sorts. It's it's a it's
Speaker 2: a way of recording that makes the music like very Wagnerian, right,
Speaker 2: It's it's like a Wagner opera. It's a bunch of
Speaker 2: noise coming at you, right, And it is meant to
Speaker 2: overwhelm you.
Speaker 4: There's often layers of percussion.
Speaker 2: It was all like, uh, layers of instrumentation to be
Speaker 2: drummer on drummer and drummer, three piano.
Speaker 4: Players, like six guitars.
Speaker 2: And this is such a big change because, like I said,
Speaker 2: prior to this, it was like, well, you just put
Speaker 2: a band in a room and then you record the band, right,
Speaker 2: and so now it's all of a sudden, like I
Speaker 2: don't have to reproduce this on stage. It doesn't have
Speaker 2: to sound like this. I'm gonna make this. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: put ten pianos on here. I'm gonna go crazy with you,
Speaker 2: you know, like yeah, like I can do anything, Okay,
Speaker 2: I want ten pianos, then bring in ten pianos. It's
Speaker 2: also like kind of that like era of like that
Speaker 2: starts there where was like the money is actually in
Speaker 2: music where they're like I need ten pianos tonight, and
Speaker 2: like someone goes out and picks up ten pianos.
Speaker 4: You know, it's really amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So like this is also yeah, kind
Speaker 1: of the birth of the the insane expenditures for like
Speaker 1: crazy artistical wins aspect.
Speaker 4: It later transforms into a cocaine budget, but well a
Speaker 4: little early.
Speaker 2: It's early for the cocaine budget, but it will eventually
Speaker 2: become a cocaine budget.
Speaker 4: Excited.
Speaker 2: So, despite being signed to Liber and Stoller, those two
Speaker 2: mentors that he had, he eventually becomes enamored with the
Speaker 2: co founder of Atlantic Records. I'm at Airdigun and when
Speaker 2: given the opportunity to jump ship, he wasted no time. Right,
Speaker 2: liber and Stoller are pissed. They're like, bro, what are
Speaker 2: you doing? Like, we gave you this opportune.
Speaker 3: Tolerated your bitch ass, and you're just gonna dip.
Speaker 4: Yes, we tolerated you.
Speaker 1: We let you come in put up with your ass.
Speaker 2: And he's like, actually, I was underage when I signed
Speaker 2: your contract, so it doesn't matter.
Speaker 4: You guys can't do shit. And he just walks out
Speaker 4: right and and they're like, eh, fair, that was true.
Speaker 2: We get, in fact, sign an underage person to a
Speaker 2: contract without having the proper legal authority, So whoopswee fucked up.
Speaker 2: So so he becomes friends with Ahmed Erdegan Erdigon recognizes
Speaker 2: his talent and he starts learning from him. Uh, it's
Speaker 2: he's just an old school record guy, right, And now
Speaker 2: so Phil's now learning the business.
Speaker 4: Right, this is he was in the music thing, and
Speaker 4: now he's like, I'm going.
Speaker 2: To learn the business. Phil would find some reasonable successes
Speaker 2: during this time, remaining under the tutelage of his friend Lester,
Speaker 2: still the old World War Two veteran, but he would
Speaker 2: eventually desire more freedom to work as he pleased, and
Speaker 2: so he and Lester formed phil Less Records, a portmanteau
Speaker 2: of their two names. I think that's the word portmanteau, right, yep,
Speaker 2: thanks nailed it.
Speaker 4: Look at me with that look at I just guessed
Speaker 4: on that one. Thanks. Uh. He was slowly becoming the
Speaker 4: king of girl groups.
Speaker 2: It was actually around this time that he was dubbed
Speaker 2: the Tycoon of teen, which sounds very questionable.
Speaker 3: I don't like I don't like that. Nope, nope, visceral reaction.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, by the age of twenty one he had become
Speaker 2: an undeniable force in the industry. He had produced a
Speaker 2: string of hits, like I think he had like twenty
Speaker 2: one top ten singles in Jesus three years or something. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was like an insane amount. His first major success
Speaker 2: was Spanish Harlem, after his own Spanish Harlem by Benny King,
Speaker 2: and then there's no one other like My Baby by
Speaker 2: the Crystals. He's a rebel by the Crystals. Bobby Socks
Speaker 2: and the Blue Jeans had a song as Zippity DooDah.
Speaker 2: Lots of crazy hits, right, yeah, crazy crazy hits.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: Here's a little little piece though the Crystals are sitting there.
Speaker 2: They recorded There's no one other like My Baby. He
Speaker 2: did well in the charts, and then you know, a
Speaker 2: few months later, they're sitting there listening to the radio
Speaker 2: one afternoon and they hear.
Speaker 4: A song come on.
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, this is cool, it's an interesting So
Speaker 2: they get done and the radio announces all and that
Speaker 2: was He's a Rebel by the Crystals.
Speaker 4: And they're like, wait what.
Speaker 2: Phil had begun recording songs and then releasing them as
Speaker 2: band songs without any of them having been on the song.
Speaker 2: He didn't, He didn't care. He was just like, they're
Speaker 2: all replaceable to me. You're all just you're all just singers.
Speaker 2: I don't care about you at all, especially you're all
Speaker 2: female singers. You are all female singers. I will just
Speaker 2: replace it. He never does this to a man, not
Speaker 2: in his entire career. But to women he does this.
Speaker 1: Oh, just like two less obvious man Jesus.
Speaker 3: I would I would have put I don't care what day.
Speaker 3: I would have punched him in this face. I would
Speaker 3: I would have looked him.
Speaker 2: At eye level and bring that up.
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm glad to bring that up. Good because.
Speaker 2: Another tick in the fill is seriously like uncomfortable without
Speaker 2: his gun comes from the lead singer of the Crystals
Speaker 2: And I forget her name.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. I hack in a fraud just like you.
Speaker 4: So I forgot her name.
Speaker 2: But she tells a story in this documentary to watch
Speaker 2: where she's like, yeah, I saw that, and I was like, okay.
Speaker 2: So she goes and she talks to this mobster that
Speaker 2: she knows, and this mobster goes out and just beats
Speaker 2: the dog piss out of film, and it's like, hey, like,
Speaker 2: if you ever do comrade mobs? Yeah, yeah, hey man.
Speaker 2: Sometimes organized crime has his purpose, let's be fair, you know, so.
Speaker 1: Often more reliable than the government.
Speaker 3: Wait, what was the name of the documentary you were
Speaker 3: just talking about.
Speaker 2: This is from the Agony in the Ecstasy of Phil Specter. Okay, cool.
Speaker 2: So he has a bunch of successes. Zippity dudah, be
Speaker 2: my Baby with the nets. You've lost that love and
Speaker 2: feeling with the righteous brothers. He is on top of
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesus, be my Baby. He has that one in
Speaker 1: an uber last night.
Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, be my Baby. He's on the my I
Speaker 3: have a vinyl from the Dirty Dancing soundtrack and it's
Speaker 3: on there.
Speaker 2: It's so good, very funny story. Years later, Phil Spector
Speaker 2: he was asked by Martin Scorsese to use be My
Speaker 2: Baby for the opening of Cocaine Cowboy. I think it
Speaker 2: was the one.
Speaker 4: Anyway, it's the opening of it. It's be my Baby.
Speaker 2: They do a whole thing, and he's asked and he's
Speaker 2: like no, and then they do it anyway and he
Speaker 2: and he sees it.
Speaker 4: It comes out. John Lennon shows it to him, and
Speaker 4: he sees it, and he comes out and he's like,
Speaker 4: what the hell outdn't toe him? They could do that,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 2: And so he gets all mad and then he sues him,
Speaker 2: of course, which you know is fair or whatever.
Speaker 4: That's fair. That's fair, song of affirmation, that's fair. You
Speaker 4: suit him.
Speaker 2: But then he goes on for the rest of his
Speaker 2: life and tells everybody I made Scorsese with that mad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, all right, that was a bit of a.
Speaker 2: Dick for the rest of his life. Think that's why,
Speaker 2: and that at the pinnacle of Phil's success is where
Speaker 2: we will leave this episode. Robert, how do you how
Speaker 2: do you feel about Phil so far?
Speaker 4: I mean, he's a little bit of a dick, but
Speaker 4: you know, he's hit some bangers.
Speaker 1: He hit some bangers so far, he just sounds like
Speaker 1: an asshole, is really good at his job.
Speaker 3: I didn't know all that shit about his mom and a.
Speaker 1: Huge misogynist who screws over female.
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, I would I would have punched.
Speaker 2: I say again, it's like if this was if this
Speaker 2: was the end, right, you'd be like, I mean not
Speaker 2: really bastard worthy, Like he's sucks. But there's no shortage
Speaker 2: of those people in the music industry, right, It's like
Speaker 2: there really is. Yeah, there's no shortage of horrible people
Speaker 2: in the music industry. Like I meet them all the
Speaker 2: time and then I'm like, cool, this is why I
Speaker 2: stopped working with labels.
Speaker 4: I'm going back to my studio. Yeah, but it is.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of them, right, and you know it's
Speaker 2: you know, it's tough too, is for every awful person
Speaker 2: I meet in the music industry, I meet a legend
Speaker 2: that I'm like, you're the nicest person I've ever met,
Speaker 2: and like, how are you this good and this cool
Speaker 2: and this person not that good and way shitty?
Speaker 4: Like I don't understand it.
Speaker 2: I'll never get it. It's there's a weird proportion in
Speaker 2: that stuff. Wow, Robert, you could be founded. I right, okay,
Speaker 2: which I can't think yeah, uh you. I like to
Speaker 2: think of it more as like like you telling your
Speaker 2: parents back in like the the early two thousands why
Speaker 2: you can't move back home and why you're having success
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles, and.
Speaker 4: You're like, I write, Okay, you.
Speaker 2: Know, it's just.
Speaker 1: Exhaustive explaining what I do for a living.
Speaker 3: To be okay, yeah, just go away.
Speaker 2: I can be found at at Greasy Will Grease at
Speaker 2: Greasy Will Music.
Speaker 4: You can just google me. I'm like on the internet.
Speaker 6: I have it.
Speaker 2: I have a recording course. If you want to learn
Speaker 2: about how to record from a Grammy Award winning engineer,
Speaker 2: I have one. It can be found at greasy does
Speaker 2: it dot com or you can just google me, or
Speaker 2: you can go to my I'm on the internet, man,
Speaker 2: I'm on the Internet, Like, it can't be that hard there.
Speaker 1: It's easy to find people.
Speaker 2: I feel like you guys will be fine tracking it's
Speaker 2: a Z. It's not with an S. I get a
Speaker 2: lot of greasy wheels and that kind of does make
Speaker 2: me a different guy, because a guy I want to
Speaker 2: meet him.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you told this on the podcast, who
Speaker 3: gave you the name greasy Will.
Speaker 4: Pharrell exactly? It's very cool, very cool.
Speaker 2: It was very cool.
Speaker 4: It's super cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, this is the end of the episode. Friends,
Speaker 3: We'll be back, We'll be back. Behind the Bastards is
Speaker 3: a production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool
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