1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: A gorgeous teen girl murdered and what does her murder 3 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: have to do with a seemingly unrelated stabbing separated by 4 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: time and distance. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. 5 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and 6 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 2: Sirius XM one eleven. First of all, just who is 7 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: Amy Hoffman? Take a listen to our friends at Crime 8 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: online dot Com investigative reporter Dave Mack. 9 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 3: Amy Hoffman came to the US when she was five 10 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 3: years old from her native Korea. She was adopted by 11 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 3: Florence Hoffman and her husband Frank. A friendly and sociable 12 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 3: high school senior, Hoffman is a member of the cheerleading 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 3: team at Parsippony Hills High School and dating a member 14 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 3: of the football team. Works part time two nights a 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 3: week at the Surprise Store, a women's clothing store in 16 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 3: the local mall. The money she makes is going toward 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 3: her college plans, studying to be a chiropractor. 18 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 4: You know, I'm thinking about Amy Hoffman. 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: This teen girl all excited about the chance to wear 20 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 2: a crown and compete for I guess high school queen 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: along with her boyfriend, A timely in life, when everything 22 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: seemed good, everything seems right. You know, when you're at 23 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 2: that young age, you don't think about forever, You don't 24 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: even think about the next hour or mortality. But sadly 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: her family was forced to think about it. With Me 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: an all star panel to make sense of what we 27 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: know right now? When was it noticed she was missing? 28 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: Take a listen again to our forensic crime online. 29 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: It's just a fifteen minute drive from the mall to 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 3: Amy Hoffman's home in Parsipony in Morris County, New Jersey. 31 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 3: When the teen doesn't get home close to her usual 32 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 3: well ninety five pm time and she doesn't call to 33 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 3: let her mom know she'll be late, Hoffman's mom, Florence, 34 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 3: begins to worry. She drives to the mall but finds 35 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,839 Speaker 3: Amy Hoffman's abandoned car in the parking lot. 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: Oh my stars, I can't even imagine looking for your 37 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: child and then you find the car unlocked open but 38 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: no child. With me it all star panel to make 39 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: sense of what we know right now? First, I want 40 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 2: to go to a very special guest joining us. It's 41 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: Laurel Ivy, a cheerleading squad mate and classmate of Amy Hoffman's. 42 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 4: Laurel, thank you for being with us. 43 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 2: I know, no matter how many times you think about 44 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 2: it or are asked about it, it never really takes 45 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: away the pain of realizing Amy was missing. 46 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 5: You're correct something that just you're for the rest of 47 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 5: your life, You're You're always going to remember Laurel. 48 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 4: When did you realize that Amy was even missing? 49 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 5: The Wednesday morning, which was after she had been adducted 50 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 5: the night before on. 51 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 4: Tuesday, how did you find out? 52 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 5: We were in school and it was going to be 53 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 5: a half a day because it was the day before 54 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 5: Thanksgiving and we were going to be having a pep rally, 55 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 5: So we had we had practiced for the pep rally 56 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 5: and for the course the Thanksgiving football game the day before, 57 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 5: and you know, all of us went home, and so 58 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 5: Wednesday morning, while we're in school, right before classes began 59 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 5: homeroom began, one of my classmates, a fellow cheerleader, came 60 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 5: to me and said, I don't know if we're going 61 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 5: to be able to do the pep rally today because 62 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 5: Amy's missing and she never came home last night. So 63 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 5: at first, do you think there has to be a 64 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 5: logical explanation you know, I mean, what does that mean? 65 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 5: She's sick? She didn't whatever, But as the day progressed, 66 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 5: we realized that it was more serious. And we didn't 67 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 5: have texting back then, we didn't have cell phones, so 68 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 5: it was you know, I attributed I compare it to 69 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 5: like the telephone tab where you tell one student and 70 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 5: then the next student, and before you know it, the 71 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 5: entire school modes. Because we had a half day right 72 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 5: after our pep rally, we just especially the senior class, 73 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 5: we just all got into our cars and just went 74 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 5: in groups as if we were going to find her 75 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 5: on her own. But that's what we did. 76 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 6: We just drove. 77 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 5: We drove to the mall, We drove everywhere we could 78 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 5: possibly think. It was horrific. It was horrific, horrific, and 79 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 5: we were all, you know, seventeen eighteen year olds at 80 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 5: the time. 81 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 4: So did you see her car at the mall? I 82 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 4: did not. 83 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 5: I think it had been removed at the time, but 84 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 5: we had heard that her keys were in the ignition, 85 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 5: her purse was on the front seat, and the car 86 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 5: door was open, so we knew that she had left work. 87 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 5: We knew that she had not only gotten to her car, 88 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 5: but I mean, you know, if you're starting your car 89 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 5: and the keys are in the ignition, you're going to 90 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 5: have your door closed exactly. 91 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 4: Now. 92 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: Where she worked at the Surprise store was that in 93 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: them all? 94 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 7: It was. 95 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 5: It was a clothing store that was I guess kind 96 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 5: of similar to like a gap, and she worked there 97 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 5: a few days a week part time. So that particular 98 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 5: day that she went missing, she had gone from school 99 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 5: to cheerleading practice to that job and then she never 100 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 5: came home that night. 101 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 4: Tell me about her as a person. 102 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 5: I mean, Amy was just the loveliest, sweetest person in 103 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 5: the world. She would do anything for you. I know. 104 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 5: You know, people often talk about deceased and they sort 105 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 5: of glorify them, but in this case, it's just true. 106 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think she had one enemy that 107 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 5: I can recall. Everybody liked her. She was just a sweet, 108 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 5: fun person. I had known her since junior high and 109 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 5: we had been cheerleaders together high school. We were very 110 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 5: much looking forward to this game because it was going 111 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 5: to be our last game on the football squad, so 112 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:16,679 Speaker 5: you know it was it was, you know, just unreal, 113 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 5: you know, and just just very kind. Never would say 114 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 5: a bad thing about anybody very popular. 115 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: What was the competition where she would be wearing a crown? 116 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 5: Oh well, it was homecoming day. 117 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: So set to be on homecoming court when suddenly she disappears. 118 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: Joining me another special guest, Julia Martin. I'm sure you've 119 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: heard her name. Award winning staff writer for the Bergen Record, 120 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: there in at Montclair Times and North Jersey dot Com. 121 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for being with us. 122 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 2: Julia, tell me about the area where Amy goes missing. 123 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: Big town, small town, suburb, high crime, low crime. 124 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 4: Tell me about it. 125 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 8: Yeah, it's a suburb. It's not definitely not a high 126 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 8: crime and especially back then. You know, it's grown a 127 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 8: lot since then. But you know, I think I don't 128 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 8: think there are any murders there, And you know, I 129 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 8: think it was faith and I think that's why she 130 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 8: left the store and walked to her car by herself, 131 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 8: and nobody from the store walked with her to make 132 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 8: sure she was okay. 133 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: Julia, you say it's a suburb, a suburb to what 134 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: it's kind of a suburb to Marstown. 135 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 9: I guess. 136 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 8: You know there are people there who commute into the city. 137 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 10: It's a fairly long commute. 138 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 8: It would be like an hour train ride. 139 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: So an hour train ride to New York close to Morristown, 140 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: and I'm trying to figure out what kind of a. 141 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 4: Mall it was. 142 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 2: Did they have the big, fancy stores like Macy's. 143 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 5: No, not at all. It was one of the first 144 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 5: tourny malls ever built, and it was a very basic mall. 145 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 5: It was almost like a strip mall. I mean, there 146 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 5: are very few stores inside, and there was I think 147 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 5: in McDonald's. That was pretty much it. 148 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Robert Crispin joining me, private investigator, former 149 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: Federal Task Force for the DOJ, Department of Justice, also 150 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: DEA in the Miami Field Division. Certainly never a lack 151 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: of business there. Former homicide You can find them at 152 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: Crispin Investigations dot com. Robert, thank you for being with us. 153 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 2: The reason I'm asking the questions about the area because 154 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: let's just take downtown NYC, New York City. Somebody goes missing, Oh, 155 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: that could be any number of things. 156 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 4: It's, you know, the capital of the world. 157 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: There are millions of people from all over the world. 158 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 4: It's high crime. 159 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: There is all sorts of underground crime going on that. 160 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 4: We don't necessarily see or hear about. Anything. Can happen there. 161 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: You know, you know I took the twins skating Rockefeller 162 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: Center this Christmas. Do you know even though John David, 163 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 2: my son is six ' five and my daughter Lucy's 164 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 2: five to three, I would not let them get on 165 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: the subway. We did a lot of subway without me 166 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 2: sitting right next to them with my hand on Lucy 167 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: and looking at my six foot five son, because you 168 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 2: don't know when something could happen or what it will be. 169 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 4: Now, that's there. 170 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: Where I grew up in unincorporated Bibb County, nothing was happening. Okay, 171 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: you couldn't pay a criminal to come commit a crime. 172 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: There was no store, no restaurant, no bank. There was 173 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: really nothing. Now here we have a duality. We have 174 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: Robert Crispin Morristown, which has a higher crime rate. Of course, 175 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: in a suburb, you're an hour away from New York, 176 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: that's a very quick train ride, and you've got a mall. 177 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: But yet still it had that small town fell to it. 178 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: So when a girl, this cheerleader girl disappears. 179 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 4: You heard what Laurel said. 180 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 2: Her car door opened, She went to school, went to cheerleading, 181 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: went to work, left work, goes to her car. It 182 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: couldn't have been a football field linked away, keys in ignission, 183 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 2: purse on the seat, door. 184 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 4: Open, hit it. 185 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean listen, it's got all the earmarks of 186 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 6: something really going bad for those initial first responding officers. 187 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 2: Okay, you know what, Crispin, I could say that, and 188 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: I'm not a former DEA or DG. Tell me something 189 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 2: more than it looks like something bad could have happened. 190 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: What do you do first? 191 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 6: Well, first of all, we're securing that crime scene in 192 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 6: that car right. 193 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 9: Attacking the parents. 194 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 6: Yep, sure absolutely, because that crimes. That car is our 195 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 6: initial crime scene. We're pulling fingerprints, were pulling, We're pulling 196 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 6: whatever we can off that car because that's where all 197 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 6: this started. Because nobody leaves their keys in the car. 198 00:10:58,559 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 6: Nobody leaves their purse. 199 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: No, and you're right, that's exactly what they did. First 200 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: take a listen to our friend Dave mac. 201 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 3: Police officers find the car door open on Amy Hoffman's 202 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 3: abandoned car. Her backpack is inside, as is her pocketbook. 203 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 3: The person along with her wallet is in the front seat, 204 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 3: and the key is in the ignition. A co worker 205 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 3: tells Florence Hoffman that Amy left the store around nine 206 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 3: point thirty and headed to her car. A CA nine 207 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 3: handler arrived to track Amy, but her sin goes called 208 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 3: just two parking spaces away. 209 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 2: And take a listen to our cut three. This is 210 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: Detective Captain James Moore. 211 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 11: Her vehicle was found in the parking lot not too 212 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 11: far away from the store that she worked in, and 213 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 11: the door was open on the card and there was 214 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 11: a witness as she noticed a male way mail in 215 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 11: a green Chevrolet that was parked a couple spots away 216 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 11: from where Amy's car was, and he was just sitting 217 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 11: there at the car at that time. 218 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't like that. Prime Stories with Nancy Grease 219 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: joining me. 220 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: Doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist and you can find her 221 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: at panther mitigation dot com. Author of criminal behavior and 222 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: where a law on psychology intersect. Okay, I know your 223 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 2: expertise is issues in legal psychology, but I don't have 224 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: to figure out why anybody does anything because I'm not 225 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: a shrink. But I'm curious, Doctor Sherry Schwartz, with all 226 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 2: of your education, when you leave them all and you 227 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: go to your car and there's a guy sitting there, 228 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 2: not moving, not doing anything, you sitting behind the wheel 229 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: of his car looking at you. I would just keep walking. 230 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: I go, oh, just forgot something, and go right back 231 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 2: into the mall. 232 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 12: Yeah, just you is you know Amy, maybe either didn't 233 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 12: take notice of him, or perhaps you know, she because 234 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 12: she was in a very familiar place where nothing had 235 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 12: ever happened to her before, she felt very safe. 236 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 11: You know. 237 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 12: So there's a number of things, that number of factors 238 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 12: that can play here. 239 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: And another thing at that young age. I mean, who 240 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: on this panel are in this studio didn't speed in 241 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: the car, or ride without a seat belt, or stay 242 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 2: at a party where other people were smoking pot or 243 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: drinking and everybody's underage. 244 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 4: I didn't say you. 245 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: Did it, just saying you do things at a young age. 246 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: You don't notice things. You feel like you're gonna live forever. 247 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: So it may have meant nothing to her. Witty Patrick 248 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 2: joining me, California prosecutor and author of Red Flags. She's 249 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 2: at wendypatrickphd dot com and she's on Today with doctor 250 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 2: Wendy every Day CASEBQ. You have handled so many cases, 251 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 2: as we all have. Teens, it's a whole nother They 252 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: don't understand what they're doing. 253 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 7: You know, it's true, Nancy, and doctor Schwartz hits on 254 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 7: actually a section on my book called familiarity breeds contentment. 255 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 7: In other words, if you're so used to just sort 256 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 7: of going the same route every day, working parking lots, 257 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 7: all the different places we went, you fail to appreciate 258 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 7: the extent to which you might be in danger when 259 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 7: you're actually leaving at night. There are shopping malls, remember 260 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 7: shopping malls in the eighties, I mean usual places our 261 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 7: parents dropped us off at to spend the afternoon so 262 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 7: they could go do their thing. We never thought we 263 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 7: were in danger when we were walking through shopping mall 264 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 7: parking lots, but we still might have noticed if we've 265 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 7: been paying attention someone loitering in their vehicle. Way back 266 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 7: in the day where there were no cell phones and 267 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 7: there was no texting involved, why would somebody simply be 268 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 7: sitting there. So it's interesting that was something that was noticed. 269 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: And you know, I want to go back to Julia Martin, 270 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: but Julian hold on just one moment, guys, For the 271 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: next days, there is an all out search for this beautiful, 272 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 2: tame girl set to be on high coming court. They 273 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: did everything possible to find her, including exactly what investigator 274 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 2: Robert Crispin advised. Take a listen to our cut four. 275 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: This is from the new detective. 276 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 13: We search the vehicle, as we do routinely, for fingerprints, 277 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 13: any type of items which may assist us in the 278 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 13: missing person, but we ultimately didn't find anything. 279 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 14: But that was about to change. Two days later, on 280 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 14: Thanksgiving Day, a man out for an afternoon walk in 281 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 14: a secluded area of Morris County, New Jersey made a 282 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 14: startling discovery. 283 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: That's right, Dave matt our friend at crime Online will 284 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 2: tell us about that incut to be. 285 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 3: Just two days later, around one pm on Thanksgiving Day, 286 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: Amy Hoffman's body is found by a couple walking in 287 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 3: their dog. The body is found face down in the 288 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: water of a concrete holding tank in the Middenborough Water Reservoir. 289 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 3: She's wearing the same clothes she was reported missing, in 290 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: a brownish purple sweater, laid skirt and cowboy boots. Hoffman's 291 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 3: death was violent. The medical examiner found multiple lacerations and 292 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 3: stab wounds on her body. Her right hand had defensive 293 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 3: wounds and her fingers were almost severed. The autopsy report 294 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: records the cause of death to be exanguation secondary to 295 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: stab wound on the right chest. Hoffman had also been raped. 296 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 4: First of all. 297 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: To doctor Jan Gorniac, renowned medical examiner, joining us out 298 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: of Clark County, that's Vegas again, never lack of business there. 299 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 2: Doctor Gorniac explained, what is sanguination. 300 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 10: Excamination just literally means to bleed to death, excesses excessive bleeding. 301 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 10: So when so and so as they exaginated, they lost 302 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 10: a lot of blood enough to cause them to go 303 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 10: into shock and then eventually dang. 304 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: What we know is that authorities looking for her were 305 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: alerted that a couple out walking their dog around on 306 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: one PM, and this is on Thanksgiving Day when most 307 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: people are just pushing back from the Thanksgiving Day table 308 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 2: that would have been November twenty five, found her in 309 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: a concrete holding tank in the Mendham Burrow Water Reservoir. 310 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: They're in Randolph Township. As you know, she was laying 311 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 2: face down in the water, still wearing all the clothing 312 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: she had had on that day, right down to her 313 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 2: cowboy boots, a plaid skirt, a purple sweater, face down, 314 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: the same clothes she was reported missing in. Her parents 315 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 2: knew exactly what she was wearing, and I find that 316 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 2: really important to you. Robert Crispin, private Eye, I can 317 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: tell you right now what John David and Lucy are wearing. 318 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 4: I don't have to see them to know. 319 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 2: I even know what color John David's underwear and socks 320 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 2: are because I laid them out last night. Now, Lucy 321 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: does not want me laying out her clothes, and I 322 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: completely understand that, but I was very encouraged that the 323 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 2: parents knew exactly what she had been wearing and could 324 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 2: relay that information. That said, face down in a reservoir. 325 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: I mean, you know immediately that's no accident, Roberts. 326 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 6: Yeah. So this now becomes prime scene number two, and 327 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 6: recovering her body from there is going to tell us 328 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 6: so much. It's going to give us the cause or 329 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 6: the apparent initial cause of her death. It's going to 330 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 6: allow us to secure her clothes. It's going to allow 331 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 6: us to get photographs that are going to help us 332 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 6: down the road. Why is this all important Because once 333 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 6: we develop the suspect, if we ever do, then the clothes, 334 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 6: the fibers, the manner in which the clothes are potentially 335 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 6: put back on the body, A lot of people who 336 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 6: are sexually assaulted, sometimes their a fender is so nervous, 337 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 6: he puts the clothes on backwards, he puts a shirt 338 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 6: on backwards. He'll actually pulled pants and put them on backwards. 339 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 6: This is all indications of where the investigator needs to 340 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 6: start looking as to what happened to this victim. So 341 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 6: crime scene number two is under. 342 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 4: Full full go. 343 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting you mentioned that about putting 344 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: clothes on wrong. I remember a case where the martyr 345 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 2: victim had their clothes their underwear on backwards. A little 346 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 2: girl had her underwear on backwards, and of course she 347 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: would never have done that. You know, little clues like 348 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: that tell us so much. I want to go back 349 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: to our special guest, Laurel Ivy, who was a cheerleader 350 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 2: and classmate of Amy Hoffman's. Laurel, do you remember when 351 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 2: you learned that Amy's body had been found? 352 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 5: Like it was yesterday, Nancy, one of the most horrible 353 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 5: memories I've ever had in my life. She had not 354 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 5: been made public after many hours after she had been discovered. 355 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 5: So when I found out, it was about nine or 356 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 5: ten o'clock at night on Thanksgiving, and it was a 357 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 5: classmate that called the home my home, and my father 358 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 5: picked up the call, and my father was in another 359 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 5: room upstairs, and I was pretty much in a state 360 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 5: of shop on the couch with my mother watching TV, 361 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 5: just reliving, you know, everything about her being missing. And 362 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 5: when my father started coming down the stairs, I just knew. 363 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 5: And when he told me it was a shop that 364 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 5: I'd never had in my entire life. 365 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: What do you mean by that, Laurel, that you saw 366 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: your dad coming down the stairs and you quote just me. 367 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 5: I just knew because of the time that the phone 368 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 5: rang at nine point thirty ten o'clock at night, I 369 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 5: just knew there had to be news, and I just 370 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 5: knew that I just knew it wasn't good. And I 371 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 5: could tell he was taking his time to come downstairs 372 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 5: and talk to me, and I just was in a 373 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 5: state of shop. And when I saw his feet and 374 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 5: he went over to the TV and turned it down 375 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 5: and said, I have to talk to you, and I 376 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 5: kind of I wasn't screaming, but at the time I 377 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 5: started to, you know, yell, and I said, no, no, no, 378 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 5: I don't want to hear what you have to say. 379 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 5: And then, you know, then he looked directly at me, 380 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 5: and he said they found her lourel and she's been sad. 381 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 5: And I fell to my knees on the floor and 382 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 5: all I can do is just remember screaming uncontrollably for 383 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 5: I don't even know how long, in a state of shock. 384 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 2: To doctor Sherry Schwartz joining us a forensic psychologist, Doctor 385 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: Sherry Schwartz, and murder of your beloved at any point 386 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 2: in your life is life changing. You're never the same 387 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: person you were before. But when that happens to someone 388 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 2: very young, why a laurel Ivy's case, she was a 389 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: taen girl when she fis out her one of her 390 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 2: best friends had been kidnapped and stabbed dead, it's life altering. 391 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 4: It really changes the rest of the course of your life. 392 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 4: I believe. 393 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 2: Why is it that when that occurs to a friend, 394 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 2: any beloved, it's so young in life, it seems to 395 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 2: have an even greater impact. 396 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 12: Well at that time, these who were kids in adolescence, 397 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 12: in the height of adolescence. And this is a really 398 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 12: critical developmental stage, right, This is a stage of development 399 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 12: that's between your childhood. But you're not quite an adult. 400 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 12: We know that the human brain isn't fully formed until 401 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 12: sometime into the mid to late twenties. And so these 402 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 12: are kids who are still developing to have such a 403 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 12: significant trauma. And you're absolutely right, Nancy. It's a significant 404 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 12: trauma at any age, but in this particular case, when 405 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 12: you're talking about kids, it has an impact potentially on 406 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 12: development into adulthood. 407 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 2: Laurel Ivy, how do you believe that at least a 408 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: murder affected your life? 409 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 5: Well, first of all, it definitely mars the rest of 410 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 5: your senior year, which is supposed to be the best 411 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 5: year of your high school years. I mean, we went, 412 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 5: most of my friends went from We couldn't wait for 413 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 5: the year to have a celebrated all the milestones. Do 414 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 5: you know, at to that point, we couldn't wait for 415 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 5: the year to be over and put it behind us, 416 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 5: which you never really do. You think that you can, 417 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 5: but you really never do. And again, the significance of 418 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 5: her being found on Thanksgiving, it's just a reminder for 419 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 5: every single year that followed that every Thanksgiving is associated 420 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 5: with that horrible, horrible, horrible day. 421 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 2: Not only were her friends and family devastated, just imagine 422 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 2: your golden girl gone in such gruesome manner, the community 423 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: felt it as well, take a list an hour cut five. 424 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 4: Captain Moore had a major impact on the community. 425 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 11: Women were hesitant about going out on her own, especially 426 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 11: at night. There was a couple walking their dog through 427 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 11: the woods and it's an isolated area, it's like a 428 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 11: lover's lane area, and they came across the body floating 429 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,959 Speaker 11: in the water. There was numerous slashes and stab wounds 430 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 11: to her body and somewhere post mortem, meaning that after 431 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 11: she had died, the sailance still continued to slash at 432 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 11: her and cut her body. 433 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 4: It was pretty gruesome too. 434 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: Special guest doctor Jan gorniac Renow medical examiner joining us. 435 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: So many questions. This young girl was slashed multiple times. 436 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 2: I know you've seen that in your practice. We also 437 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: know this Tanen girl, this little cheerleader, was brutally raped, 438 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: yet her clothes have put back on her body. We 439 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: also know that she was face down in water, contained 440 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: in a reservoir. So how does all of that, especially 441 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: being faced down in water, affect any chance of getting DNA. 442 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 10: Oh, that's there's a lot of factors that can affect 443 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 10: getting DNA. So obviously the condition of the body, the 444 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 10: elements around because you know, like any evidence you can 445 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 10: take into the scene and out of the scene. So 446 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 10: whatever is in the water, right, can also lend to 447 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 10: depositing and on the body. So the best way to 448 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 10: get DNA is to actually, you know, when we do 449 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 10: what we call the sexual assault kit is actually get 450 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 10: samples from quote unquote within the body in the oral cavity, 451 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 10: in vagina, mouth, vagina, the rectum, mouth, right, So being 452 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 10: redressed that might be beneficial because it is in a 453 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 10: way protecting the vaginal area, the anal region, so it's 454 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 10: being covered. So there's a layer in between being faced down. 455 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 4: In the water. 456 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 10: That might be difficult getting samples from, say the mouth, 457 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 10: because of all the water that might be going in 458 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 10: and out of the mouth, because of the water in 459 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 10: what's in the water. Same thing when we talk about 460 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 10: fingernail scrapings, cutting the nails, combing hair. So there's a 461 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 10: lot that goes into collecting of DNA from the body. 462 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 10: But if you don't try, you're not going to find it. So, 463 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 10: but the element and where the person is found and 464 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 10: the condition of the body of their decomponent, the longer 465 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 10: they they are out from that time of death until 466 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 10: they're discovered, then that collection decreases. 467 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 2: Joining right now a DNA expert, doctor Monty Miller, director 468 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 2: of Forensic DNA Experts specializing in sex assaults and murder, 469 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: former forensic scientists for the Texas Department of Public Safety. 470 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: Doctor Miller, thank you for being with us. You know, 471 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 2: doctor Jane Gorniac says, something highly highly probative. If there 472 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 2: were objects in the water, like some of her clothing, 473 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 2: including the clothing that have been put back on her, 474 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 2: there's always a chance to get DNA from the clothing 475 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 2: as well as body cavities. But let me ask you, 476 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: doctor Miller, how is DNA treated when it's been degraded, 477 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 2: when it has been exposed to the elements, say mud, dirt, water, 478 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 2: can you still extract hopefully the killer's DNA, even if 479 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: the DNA has been degraded, Well, hopefully you can. 480 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 9: And it depends on how degraded it is. You know, 481 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 9: you can get anything from a full profile, you know, 482 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 9: all of their DNA to nothing. It just depends on, 483 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 9: you know, how well it's how much it's been degraded. 484 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 9: The water probably won't cause it to be degraded so 485 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 9: much as it will wash it off, particularly if it's cold. 486 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 9: Most of our bodily fluids are are the ones that 487 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 9: carry DNA that we might find on somebody or going 488 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 9: to you know, be washed off with the water. Those things, 489 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 9: the DNA that's found internally on the body inside you know, 490 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 9: the vaginal cavity or the rectum, you know, are really 491 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 9: good places because those are not likely to have the 492 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 9: water wash across them and wash it out as well. 493 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 9: But you can still get DNA if it's degraded, if 494 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 9: it's not too degraded. But I wouldn't think that over 495 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 9: a short period of time that that would be a problem. 496 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 2: Here, Doctor Monte Miller, again, DNA expert. What about touch 497 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,239 Speaker 2: DNA on the body or on clothing, if that is 498 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: exposed to wash, do you lose. 499 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 9: It most of the time, you will, you know, sperm 500 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 9: sometimes will stick to clothing and things even through a 501 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 9: wash cycle. So you might still be able to find 502 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 9: sperm if you knew where to look, but most of 503 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 9: the other skin cells and anything from touch DNA and 504 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 9: anything like that would likely. 505 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: Be gone, gone darn And given the remote location of 506 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 2: the crime scene out of that reservoir, police believe the 507 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: perpetrator was most likely a local who knew their way 508 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 2: around the area. They did the right thing. They go 509 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: straight back to the mall. Take a listen hour cut 510 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: seven from the new Detective. 511 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 14: Hoping for more information, police returned to the mall to 512 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 14: question other employees. One woman stated that when she left 513 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 14: the mall around nine pm, she saw a creepy looking 514 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 14: man just sitting there in his car. She thought the 515 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 14: vehicle was an old Chevy. She only caught a glimpse 516 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 14: of the man's face. She could not offer police a 517 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 14: detailed description. Investigators knew they would have to work quickly. 518 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 13: We knew we had a major offender in our community. 519 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 13: We knew we had somebody that was a predator. And 520 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 13: what motivated me, as well as all the other law 521 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 13: enforcement officers who worked in this case, is we had 522 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 13: to capture this guy before he killed again. 523 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 2: But could they catch the killer before he struck again? 524 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 2: And trust me, statistically, this killer is a man. Take 525 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: a listen now to our cut eight from Psychic Investigators. 526 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 15: Eighteen year old student Damie Hoffman goes missing. Two days later, 527 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 15: her mutilated body is discovered in a water retention tank. 528 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 15: Police from all across the region are hunting down a 529 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 15: brutal killer. 530 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 11: The second victim was a girl named Ddre O'Brien who 531 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 11: worked at a local restaurant and was heading home early in 532 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 11: the morning. 533 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 4: It was after midnight. 534 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,479 Speaker 11: She was forced off the road and abducted from her vehicle. 535 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. 536 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 11: The second victim was a girl named Ddre O'Brien who 537 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 11: worked at a local restaurant and was heading home early 538 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 11: in the morning. 539 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 4: It was after midnight. 540 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 11: She was forced off the road and abducted from her vehicle. 541 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: So now, Wendy Patrick, we're hearing about another young girl 542 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: who had been in her car, who was forced out 543 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 2: of her car, and now we're hearing about this being 544 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 2: at a rest stop just a very short time after 545 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: Amy was taken out of her car in the evening 546 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: and at a public place. Seemingly the per had no 547 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: problem with being watched. I mean, it's almost a fingerprint crime. 548 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 7: It's becoming patterns make the predator. It looks like this 549 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 7: is an abductor who is a local, knows areas where 550 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 7: he may be able to get away with it easier, 551 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 7: knows where to potentially dump the bodies, and that's the 552 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 7: type of thing that investigators are going to use to 553 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 7: then try to put these clues together and connect the dots. Absolutely, 554 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 7: it looks like somebody that has a distinctive mo even 555 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 7: if we just had these two incidents. 556 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 2: Now we're talking about another young girl Didraw O'Brien and 557 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: a very short distance away in Mindham Township. Take a 558 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 2: listen to what Detective Captain James Moore has to say 559 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: about this and our cut nine that didn't catch the 560 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 2: killer the first time, and now they've got a second 561 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: dead body later. 562 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 11: Brought to Vesta on Rood eighty and Warren Township wish 563 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 11: he was murdered. We are all very upset because now 564 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 11: he had two grouesome homicides on our hands, and we 565 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 11: had a feeling that the same individual was involved because 566 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 11: the same type vehicle was seen leaving the scene of 567 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 11: ddro O'Brien's homisoid. 568 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 2: So now we have not one, but two attacks on 569 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 2: young women. When you were looking at a case like this, 570 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: let me go out to doctor Sherry Schwartz and you 571 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: see startling similarities. What do you look at to determine 572 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: as the same perp attack to both young girls. 573 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 12: Well, one of the first things to look at would 574 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 12: be the how they were killed. So if or how 575 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 12: they were injured? Right, So was it by stabbing? Was 576 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 12: it by strangulation? Were they both sexually assaulted? Were their 577 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 12: bodies left in the same place maybe with the surviving 578 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 12: victim who can help the police, like in the case 579 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 12: of Ted Bundy. Was the way that they were approached 580 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 12: by the perpetrator similar. 581 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just so many similarities out to you, Robert Crispin. 582 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: They've got to realize these two may be connected, right totally. 583 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 6: As soon as they got to that scene and they realized. 584 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 6: You know, these guys who work these cases, these homicide 585 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 6: guys or these major crime guys, you know, they see 586 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 6: similarities as soon as they get there, and they're already 587 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 6: processing in their mind that this is absolutely connected to 588 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 6: the one we did last week. They just need to 589 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 6: put it together. But I can tell you as soon 590 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 6: as they got on scene from working these types of cases, 591 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 6: their mind went right too. This is the second homicide 592 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 6: involving the same. 593 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 2: Person, and they must have felt awful. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. 594 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 2: They couldn't catch the guy. When Amy goes missing and 595 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: has found dead, and now here's Deirdre, another young girl 596 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 2: killed in very similar circumstances, a brutal death. 597 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 7: I might add, oh, absolutely, And you know, a brutal death, 598 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 7: you're going to start thinking. 599 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 4: Of motive who would kill this way? 600 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 7: You know, when you talk about post mortem injuries, flashing stabbings, 601 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 7: I mean that speaks to rage, not just a crime 602 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 7: of opportunity. So that one of the things that that 603 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 7: does is really heightened this community fear and awareness that 604 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 7: this somebody that's out of control and appears to be 605 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 7: killing indiscriminately. 606 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 2: And another thing I think they can deduce at this 607 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 2: point that it's a random killer. In other words, I 608 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 2: don't think the two women were connected in any way, 609 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: and that means that one person has attacked two unconnected women, 610 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: which may indicate he is unconnected to them as well 611 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 2: and is killing at random, which is even scarier, much 612 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 2: harder saw the case like that until believe it or not, 613 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 2: a crack in the case, it basically falls on their heads. 614 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: Take a list an hour cut twelve from the new detective. 615 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 14: The suspect and his vehicle matched the description of the 616 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 14: suspect in the Amy Hoffmann case. With only tiny synthetic 617 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 14: fibers recovered from Deirdre O'Brien's clothing. Investigators went to the 618 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 14: site where she had been abducted to search for more clues. 619 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 14: They found a tire track left in the dirt. It 620 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 14: was photographed and then a cast was carefully made. While 621 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 14: the tread was only one potential clue, it was the strongest. 622 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 13: Most energy was put onto the tire track itself because 623 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 13: we could see where its location approximately four feet from 624 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 13: the victim's vehicle. That was probably the suspects tire and 625 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 13: we've heard. 626 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 4: A lot about that type of evidence. In the Idaho case. 627 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 2: Were tire track castings taken from outside the crime scene 628 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 2: where four young students were murdered. Tire casting tried and true. 629 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 2: Here is the break take a list to our cut fourteen. 630 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 11: They responded to a home in Marstown where an individual 631 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 11: had been stabbed. While they were at the scene, one 632 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 11: of the officers noticed the green Chevrolet sitting in the 633 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 11: driveway and it matched the description of the vehicle we 634 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 11: were looking for, so they called for the forensic team 635 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 11: to come to the scene to check this vehicle out. 636 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 11: As it turned out, they found the tire in the 637 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 11: car matched the imprint that was found at DJ O'Brien's subduction. Subsequently, 638 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 11: the individual was the best choice with the two homicides. 639 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 2: So straight back to our DNA expert. Extraordinary joining Us 640 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: talked to Monte Miller, forensic DNA expert. 641 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 4: Doctor Miller. 642 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 2: We hear fiber evidence was taken off Diadri's clothing fiber evidents. 643 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 4: What is fiber evidence? 644 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 9: So, fibers are all of the different things that we 645 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 9: make our clothing and carpets and other things out of. 646 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 9: They're very distinct. Some of them are are rare and 647 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 9: others of them are rather common. They have distinctive shapes 648 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 9: and sizes and colors. They look different under certain kinds 649 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,959 Speaker 9: of light and things like that, so they can be identified. 650 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 9: You can't tell for sure that they're, you know, from 651 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 9: the same source. You know, if you have there from 652 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 9: a carpet in a car. There are lots of cars 653 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 9: likely that have that carpet or in your house. But 654 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 9: it certainly is a credible way to connect people to 655 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 9: potentially being in the trunk of a car or being 656 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 9: in someone else's car, just because fibers and those things 657 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 9: do transfer when we're get around. 658 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. The similar case is that Wayne Williams prosecution in 659 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: Atlanta for the murders of many young boys and teen boys. 660 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 2: Fiber from his car and his home carpet found on 661 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 2: nearly every single murder victim. 662 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 4: So what do we do now? 663 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 2: We look back at the dying words of dead or 664 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 2: take a listen to hour cut eleven from crime Online. 665 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 3: Two weeks after Amy Hoffman was murdered, a truck driver 666 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 3: parked at arrest stop twenty minutes from the Morris County 667 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 3: Mall was jolted from his sleep. A terrified young woman 668 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 3: was begging for help. She was bleeding badly and barely 669 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 3: clinging to life. The truck driver called police, though she 670 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 3: lost a lot of blood. Twenty five year old Dedra 671 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 3: O'Brien was still conscious when the paramedics arrived. She told 672 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 3: the authorities that less than a mile from her home, 673 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 3: a car forced her off the road. The driver brandished 674 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 3: a knife and worcester into his car, an old Chevy. 675 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 3: He drove her to the rest stop, sexually assaulted her, 676 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 3: and then stabbed her repeatedly. Deirdre O'Brien would not survive 677 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 3: her injuries. She died at the hospital, but not before 678 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 3: giving a description of her killer. 679 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 2: Giving a description of her killer. Let's let Sergeant first 680 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 2: Class William Hughes shed a little more light on what 681 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 2: happened to port Deirdre Take a Listen hour cut ten. 682 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 13: The only thing that stopped him from continuing with his 683 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 13: attempt to sectually assault her was the fact that there 684 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 13: was a truck parked in the rest area a little 685 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 13: ahead of him. 686 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,720 Speaker 11: Had enough and didn't want to be bothered with her anymore, 687 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 11: so he stabbed her and threw out of the car 688 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 11: and then drove off. And that's when de Drew had 689 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 11: enough strength to pick herself up and go through the 690 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 11: truck to knock on the door of getting help from 691 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 11: the truck driver. 692 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 2: What Deirdre lived through the sex assault, the stabbing, she 693 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 2: managed to give a description. Believing the part was a 694 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: low and based on Deirdre's description, cops are led to 695 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 2: a guy James Kadatic Take a Listen at Our cut thirteen. 696 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 3: As investigators race to identify a suspect before he could 697 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,720 Speaker 3: strike again, another stabbing was reported. This time the victim 698 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 3: was a man, but the details were familiar. Thirty four 699 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 3: year old James Kodadic told police while he was driving 700 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 3: he was pulled over by an early model Chevy with 701 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 3: a flashing blue light on the dash. The driver of 702 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 3: the other car pulled him out of his vehicle and 703 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 3: stabbed him. Kodadic fought off his attacker and fled to 704 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 3: his mother's house. His description of the assailant resembled the 705 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 3: murderer at large. To police, James, Kodadic was fortunate his 706 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 3: wounds were not serious. 707 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 2: Wow, he claimed he was stabbed, but amazingly he lived 708 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 2: and what a story. He tells police. He was followed 709 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 2: by ominously by a car that had blue lights. The 710 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 2: stabbings were mostly superficial, and he's matching the description from 711 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 2: Edra take us an our cut fifteen from the new detective. 712 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 13: We believed that he thought the police might have had 713 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 13: an idea or we're looking at him as a suspect 714 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 13: in a case, which we weren't. But that's why we 715 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 13: believed he made this particular scenario up. 716 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 14: But Kodadich's planned backfired and led investigators right to him. 717 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 14: Based on the evidence, police believed that Kodadic prowled for 718 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,760 Speaker 14: vulnerable women to abduct, molest, and kill. For the murders 719 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,800 Speaker 14: of Amy Huffman and Deirdre O'Brien. James Kodatch was sentenced 720 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 14: to ninety five years to. 721 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 2: E lrel Ivy, cheerleader and classmate, along with Amy, the 722 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 2: first of two victims that we know of. How did 723 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,760 Speaker 2: you feel when Kadatic was found guilty. 724 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 5: The actual trial didn't happen until years later. I was 725 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,240 Speaker 5: already in college, but there was a two week period 726 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 5: between the two girls murders, and after Amy had been 727 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 5: murdered and found, there was this panic among our community 728 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 5: about was it as target to the cheerleaders, you know, 729 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 5: and so for that period of time, and the police 730 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 5: asked us not to wear like our cheerleading jackets out 731 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 5: in public or to you know, our parents wouldn't let 732 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 5: us like I had a part time job, and my 733 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,919 Speaker 5: parents wouldn't let me drive to my job at night. 734 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 5: They would pick me up and drive me home. And 735 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 5: we were very, very very terrified because her killer was 736 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,840 Speaker 5: still at large. It was, and then after Geirdri's murder, 737 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 5: now you have two and so now you really believe 738 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 5: that there's a serial killer out there, which I had 739 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 5: never even known what a serial Cilip was at that 740 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,359 Speaker 5: time when I was seventeen, So it was even more 741 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 5: he was convicted or he was arrested for Girder's murder. First, 742 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,799 Speaker 5: it was I guess some time passed before they were 743 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 5: sure that he had been connected to Amy's murder. So 744 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,359 Speaker 5: there was still a kind of period of time where 745 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 5: we were not completely sure that James Caudatage had been 746 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 5: apprehended for Amy's murder. We weren't sure if her murder 747 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 5: was still at large. 748 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 2: Kadata sentenced remains behind mars, but of course he is 749 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 2: now trying to file even more appeals, most likely a 750 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 2: habeas corpus insisting the DNA recovered from Amy would prove 751 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 2: he did not rape and murder her. You know what, 752 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 2: I wish they would grant that so the DNA could 753 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 2: prove him guilty once and for all. 754 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 4: Regarding Amy. We wait as justice unfolds. 755 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 2: Nancy Grace Crime's story, signing off, did my friend you