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Speaker 1: A beautiful young woman beheaded, Yes, that's what I said, beheaded,

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Speaker 1: has her head chopped off on the sidewalk in broad daylight.

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Speaker 1: And the Minnesota district attorney is still trying to decide

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Speaker 1: whether he should seek life without parole. Really, he's still

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Speaker 1: trying to decide. He's mulling. Wow, what should I do

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Speaker 1: with this case? Should I plead it out on probation?

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Speaker 1: What is going on in Minnesota? A woman gets beheaded

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Speaker 1: with a machete on the sidewalk in a subdivision in

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Speaker 1: broad daylight. This guy needs to be under the jail.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I had to learn early on,

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Speaker 1: as in day one when I began prosecuting violent crime,

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Speaker 1: is that there is no happy ending. I want there

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Speaker 1: to be a happy ending when it comes to violent crime.

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Speaker 1: But even when you try a case and you get

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Speaker 1: a guilty verdict and you get a maximum sentence, I

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Speaker 1: never went out and celebrated or how to celebration dinner,

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Speaker 1: because everybody leaves the courtroom with a broken heart. You

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Speaker 1: can never get the victim back, You can never take

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Speaker 1: back the damage done. The defendant's family is all torn

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Speaker 1: up because he or she is going away to jail

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Speaker 1: or worse. So everybody is upset. That's the reality. But

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Speaker 1: I can tell you this, you can get justice. You

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Speaker 1: can walk out of that courtroom with a broken heart,

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Speaker 1: but knowing you got justice in one case at least.

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Speaker 1: So I would like to find out TikTok, TikTok, tick

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Speaker 1: talk what is this Minnesota prosecutor waiting on with me?

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Speaker 1: And I'll star panel to break it down and put

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Speaker 1: it back together again. But first take to listen to

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Speaker 1: this the first question I asked the cop when I

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Speaker 1: asked him if I could tell him what I saw

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Speaker 1: was that was real? And he said yes. Alexis Pool

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Speaker 1: was cleaning her house Wednesday afternoon on the corner of

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Speaker 1: a busy four way stop intersection in Shockoppy when something

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Speaker 1: suspicious out the window prompted her to start filming with

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Speaker 1: her cell phone. I thought it was a joke. I

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Speaker 1: thought it was some type of prank. I didn't think

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Speaker 1: it was real. I thought maybe it was a doll.

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Speaker 1: The doll was actually a lifeless body pulled out of

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Speaker 1: the car by a man who then grabbed her decapitated head.

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Speaker 1: I saw him go in his back seat and put

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Speaker 1: on his backpack and walk away like nothing. Happened. The

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Speaker 1: victim was America Mafalda Thair. Charged in her death is

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend, forty two year old Alexis Sabred. According to

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Speaker 1: the criminal complaint, witnesses at the busy intersection who drove

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Speaker 1: around the car apparently saw the suspect hacking the victim

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Speaker 1: but didn't realize what they were watching. And he smelled

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Speaker 1: something and he just stopped. The next day, a woman

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Speaker 1: walking her dog found the bloody murder weapon along machete

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Speaker 1: with a deeply serrated edge. It was very awful seeing it,

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Speaker 1: and I wish I hadn't ntil never to be able

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Speaker 1: to unsee it. He were just hearing our friend Loui

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Speaker 1: reducing Ka r E eleven reporting on what happened. Again,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you about our all star panel assemboled

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Speaker 1: today to make sense of this, if that's even possible.

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Speaker 1: We're now on trial. Attorney joining us out of the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta jurisdiction. Randy Kessler, Emory Law professor and former chair

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Speaker 1: of the ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce, Protect Yourself,

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Speaker 1: your Kids, and your Future. You can find them at

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Speaker 1: k k S Family Law dot com. Doctor Sherry sorts

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Speaker 1: with US forensic psychologists specializing and just this sort of

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Speaker 1: crime at panther at mitigation dot com. Author of criminal

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Speaker 1: behavior and where law and psychology intersect. Doctor Kendall Crown's

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Speaker 1: Deputy Medical Examiner, Travis County, Texas. That's in Austin and

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Speaker 1: also senior lecturer at University of Texas and Texas. A

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Speaker 1: and M. Robert Crispin joining us private investigator at Crispin's

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Speaker 1: Special Investigations Crispin Investigations dot com. He is a was

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Speaker 1: a homicide investigator and with the DEA. But first to

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Speaker 1: Paul Bloom, reporter Fox nine News there in Minneapolis. Paul Bloom,

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Speaker 1: let me understand, Minneapolis doesn't have the death penalty. So basically,

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Speaker 1: you can behead as many unarmed women on the sidewalk

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Speaker 1: as you want to. Is you can get away with

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Speaker 1: and you're still not gonna get the death penalty? Is

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Speaker 1: that right? No offense? But isn't that true? No offense taken?

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Speaker 1: But absolutely as horrific as that sounds, Minnesota as a

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Speaker 1: non death penalty state. In fact, a prosecutor out to

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Speaker 1: make the decision to take a murder case to a

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Speaker 1: grand jury, get a grand jury to sign off on

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Speaker 1: that first degree murder indictment. And hold on, you got

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Speaker 1: me drinking out of the fire hijun too much, too fast.

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Speaker 1: Hold on just a moment. You said, the district attorney

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Speaker 1: has to quote make a decision. In other words, think

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Speaker 1: for a minute before he she takes a case to

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Speaker 1: the grand jury. Isn't it true, Paul Bloom that in Minnesota,

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Speaker 1: like everywhere else in the country, there is a grand

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Speaker 1: jury impaneled for every grand jury session. They need to

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Speaker 1: my understanding of the legal system, as they need to

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Speaker 1: impanel a grand jury. This is outside of Minneapolis, so

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Speaker 1: this is a quieter county, if you will, they would

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Speaker 1: have to impanel a grand jury and take the evidence

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Speaker 1: to that jury of the peers and indict on a

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Speaker 1: first degree murder count Okay, Randy Kessler, you know the deal.

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Speaker 1: Every jurisdiction has a grand jury impaneled. Impaneled sounds like

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Speaker 1: it's individual to that case, but the reality is is

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Speaker 1: that grand jurors are very simply selected automatically. There's not

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Speaker 1: a person drawing an aim out of a box or anything.

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Speaker 1: Typically off the voter registration list because those people are

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Speaker 1: in the Fulton County and then or whatever county we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, and then once they get to the courthouse

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Speaker 1: on their point of day, their question, do you still

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Speaker 1: live in Let's just pretend Fulton County, Paul Bloom, what

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Speaker 1: county is? This is Scott County, Minnesota, Scott County. So

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Speaker 1: once you get just let's pretend forty people off the

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Speaker 1: voter registration was. It's just like when you get a

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Speaker 1: jury summons. You're not special. You're picked off the driver's

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Speaker 1: license list or the voter registration list that signifies your

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Speaker 1: age and the fact that you live in the correct jurisdiction.

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Speaker 1: You're summoned in. And if you're for some reason not

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Speaker 1: the right age or not in the jurisdiction, you're thrown out.

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Speaker 1: And everybody else basically stews in the same pot with

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Speaker 1: the other poor people that get dragged in for jury duty.

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Speaker 1: I agree or disagree? Kessler agree. Wouldn't it be nice

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Speaker 1: if there was a jurisdiction where there was so little

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Speaker 1: crime that read, wait until there was a crime committed?

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Speaker 1: You know what you said, that's so much better than

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Speaker 1: I did, Randy Kessler. This is how it works. Every

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Speaker 1: time there's a crime, you don't panel a new grand jury.

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Speaker 1: You have a grand jury on hold. Now. In the

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Speaker 1: jurisdiction where I practice, Inner City, Atlanta, we had a

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Speaker 1: jury the term I believe it lasted six months and

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Speaker 1: the grand jury we would come in about forty people

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Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays and they would hear cases for

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Speaker 1: about three or four hours. Each case lasted about three

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Speaker 1: to fifteen minutes. Bare bones case. The cop comes in

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Speaker 1: and says, this is what happened, Bam and dit or

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Speaker 1: no bill. It's really that simple. If they didn't have

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases that day, that'd get out early.

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Speaker 1: But what it meant to me is that about once

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Speaker 1: or twice a week I'd get a whole caseload of

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Speaker 1: brand new in diamonds. The grand jury handed down. So

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Speaker 1: Paul Bloom joining me out of Fox nine News Minneapolis,

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Speaker 1: and I know you don't have a dog in this fight.

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Speaker 1: You're just the messenger. Are you telling me? The elected

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Speaker 1: District Attorney of Scott County is still sitting there with

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Speaker 1: a thumb up as rear end And this case has

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Speaker 1: not been indicted for murder one. That's a yes, snow, Paul.

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Speaker 1: It has not been indicted. Clime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a beautiful young woman that was literally

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Speaker 1: beheaded on the side walk and as of right now,

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Speaker 1: the killer has not been indicted for murder one. Why

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Speaker 1: is that? Take a listen to this. We're learning new

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Speaker 1: information about a woman's death and shakopee. We want to

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Speaker 1: warn you some of the details aren't disturbing and not

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Speaker 1: appropriate for young people. Police have identified the victim as America. There.

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Speaker 1: We're told she was found around two thirty yesterday afternoon

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Speaker 1: at the intersection of Fourth Avenue and Spencer Street. Police

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Speaker 1: tell us they found her body beheaded. A man, police say,

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Speaker 1: knew the victim was arrested on suspicion of second degree murder.

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Speaker 1: He's in jail pending charges second degree murder? What do

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Speaker 1: you have to do to get murder? One? He beheads

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Speaker 1: her in broad Dale on the sidewalk. People see it happen. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let me understand what happened, Paul Blome before I bring

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Speaker 1: in the rest of our panel. Paul joining us there

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Speaker 1: at Fox nineties Minneapolis, tell me what happened the day

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Speaker 1: of the beheading. Well, I mean it's horrific. Basically, the

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Speaker 1: assailant here, America's boyfriend, longtime boyfriend Alexa Sabrett hanging out.

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Speaker 1: He's got a court hearing that day, just basic an

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Speaker 1: hour before this grizzly attack occurs. Our understanding is America's

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Speaker 1: trying to convince him to go to court. We don't

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Speaker 1: know exactly what happens in the car they're driving around.

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Speaker 1: He elects not to go to court that day. He

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Speaker 1: was accused of trying to burn down his own apartment

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Speaker 1: a year earlier. Wait wait, wait, wait, wait, he's already accused. No,

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Speaker 1: you're not off track, You're perfect. He's used a burning

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Speaker 1: down an apartment, and he's going, Wow, should I go

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Speaker 1: to court? Well, in what universe do you get a

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Speaker 1: summons to court and you go, hmm, I wonder if

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Speaker 1: I should go? And so she's trying to talk him

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Speaker 1: into showing up for court and he beheads her. Is

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Speaker 1: that right, Paul, Yeah, that's that's where that's out. He

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Speaker 1: refuses to go. There's an altercation in the cars, some

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Speaker 1: sort of assault of behavior occurring. He pulls over to

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Speaker 1: the side of the row. We're just two blocks from

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Speaker 1: the courthouse in Scott County, right downtown Shockopy. As you

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Speaker 1: mentioned broad daylight. I think it's a Wednesday afternoon. Say

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Speaker 1: this is two blocks from the courthouse. Yeah, just two

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Speaker 1: blocks from a court of law, and he thinks it's

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Speaker 1: okay to drag his girlfriend out of the car in

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Speaker 1: broad daylight and behead her. And the DA is still

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Speaker 1: thinking about it. You just heard from our friend Sheila

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Speaker 1: raise A w CCCBS. Now take listen to this. A

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Speaker 1: local resident reports the police that her dog has found

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Speaker 1: a knife in a nearby garden. A bloody shirt and

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Speaker 1: shoes are also recovered in an alley a few blocks away.

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Speaker 1: A police report notes that a black handle was sticking

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Speaker 1: up from the ground, concealed in a bush. The blade

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Speaker 1: was almost entirely shoved into the dirt and difficult to see.

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Speaker 1: Documents described the weapon as a black machete with a

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Speaker 1: partially serrated edge. Police said the blade was covered with

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Speaker 1: a bloodlike substance and there appeared to be strands of

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Speaker 1: hair on it. The knife also appears to fit a

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Speaker 1: sheath found at the crime scene. Okay, the reason I'm

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Speaker 1: having so many long pauses is because it's just very

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Speaker 1: hard for me to take this and let me remind

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Speaker 1: everybody that this woman, America Thair, has a family, She

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Speaker 1: has children. How do you live with knowing your mother

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Speaker 1: was beheaded in broad Dale Light, two blocks from the courthouse,

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Speaker 1: in a suburban area, in a setting where a woman

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Speaker 1: looks out of our kitchen window and sees a beheading.

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Speaker 1: This isn't just some statistic or some name on a

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Speaker 1: police report. This was a beautiful young woman with children.

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Speaker 1: And did did I hear Paul Bloom Fox nine needs

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Speaker 1: Minneapolis that a dog? What did a dog find the

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Speaker 1: machete a day or two after the attack? And you

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Speaker 1: know what else? I heard Doctor Sherry Shorts forensic psychologists

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Speaker 1: who loves to tell me why people are. They're insane

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Speaker 1: at the time, but insanity under the law. And I'm

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Speaker 1: sure a Randy Kessler will correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 1: Is you don't know right from wrong at the time

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Speaker 1: of the incident. It doesn't mean you come into court

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Speaker 1: and babbel or speaking tongues, or turn around in your

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Speaker 1: chair or refuse to eat. It means at the time

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Speaker 1: the incident you did not know right from wrong. And

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Speaker 1: let me point out, doctor Sherry Schwartz that this guy

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Speaker 1: conceals the weapon, he takes off his bloody shoes, he

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Speaker 1: takes off his bloody clothing, and hides it and leaves

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Speaker 1: he knew what he did was wrong. For Pete's say,

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Speaker 1: right before he murdered this woman, he apparently was angry

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Speaker 1: because she thought he should go to court on an

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Speaker 1: arson charge, and he didn't want to go to court.

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Speaker 1: He knew everything he did was wrong. That is the

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Speaker 1: litmus test for insanity. You're absolutely right, Nancy. It would

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Speaker 1: be very difficult for any forensic psychologist to opine, to

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Speaker 1: render an opinion in this case that there is that

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Speaker 1: legal concept of insanity. You know, there's evidence of guilty

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Speaker 1: mind mind right, and that's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: we look for. Somebody discarded the machete, he was the

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Speaker 1: one with it, Witnesses saw him, presumably, and it winds

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Speaker 1: up in somebody's garden, and then you know, a little

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Speaker 1: distance away, there's his bloody shoes. I'm assuming they're his

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Speaker 1: bloody shoes, bloody clothing. Obviously, this is evidence that he

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Speaker 1: was trying to conceal the crime. So that would preclude

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Speaker 1: any insanity defense, any opinion by a forensic psychologist that

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Speaker 1: there's legal insanity here. You know, Randy Kess or, in

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Speaker 1: many many jurisdictions, the evidence of flight when you commit

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Speaker 1: a crime and then you run or you're on the

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Speaker 1: run from police evidence of concealment. It's still allowed at trial.

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Speaker 1: It can be argued both ways by the prosecutor and

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Speaker 1: the defense, whether it's evidence of guilt. But the judge

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Speaker 1: no longer in jurisdictions can instruct the jury that flight

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Speaker 1: or concealment of evidence is evidence of guilt. Of course

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Speaker 1: it is, but that is for a jury to decide.

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Speaker 1: That's why they change the judge's instruction. That is within

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Speaker 1: the sole province of a jury considering the case, not

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Speaker 1: a judge, but Randy, please come on analyze it, man,

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Speaker 1: and and don't go off in some legal defense of

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Speaker 1: theory and throw a lot of Latin phrases in everybody.

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Speaker 1: We don't care. This is evidence of guilty. He took

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Speaker 1: off his boody clothes, he had the weapon, he had

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Speaker 1: the clothes and left. All right, well, I'll end with

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Speaker 1: something you'll like. But to start with this is the

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Speaker 1: most dangerous kind of criminal there is because this was anger.

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Speaker 1: This was something. Clearly, the facts are so horrific that

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Speaker 1: evidence of flight isn't going to matter. The jury is

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Speaker 1: going to hate him. But the bottom line is he

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Speaker 1: acted spontaneously, right, And that's the thing you don't want

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Speaker 1: to hear from me because it's a legal defense. It

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Speaker 1: was certainly not premeditated. You don't premeditate the caody. You

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Speaker 1: have a machett in your back seat? Do you bring

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Speaker 1: a machete? Don't tell me it's spontaneous, because he had

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Speaker 1: time for premeditation. Premeditation under the lock and be formed

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Speaker 1: in the blink of an eye, the twinkling of a moment.

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Speaker 1: The time it takes to reach in the back seat,

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Speaker 1: grab the machete, hold it up and swing it. That

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Speaker 1: is time to think, Wow, maybe I shouldn't the head

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Speaker 1: my girlfriend. He's not going to get off light. But

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Speaker 1: you know he's gotta have something. You know when I'm

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Speaker 1: correcting grammar. Okay, so let me stop myself. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Fox nine News. Can't even

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Speaker 1: I have no words for it, dude. It's yeah, it scary.

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Speaker 1: Folks living in this residential neighborhood just blocked him. Downtown

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Speaker 1: Chockopy shaken by a horrifying that afternoon attack. They left

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Speaker 1: a woman dead in the street. Emergency responders and eventually

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Speaker 1: crime scene investigators descending on the scene around two thirty pm.

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Speaker 1: The black penting here marking the spot. A male suspect

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Speaker 1: initially fled on foot, but he was captured soon after

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Speaker 1: about a mile and a half away. Authorities combing several

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Speaker 1: locations looking for evidence. Sources telling Fox nine that a

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Speaker 1: knife was used in the deadly assault. Yeah, it's scary.

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Speaker 1: It's too close to home. I feel like anti to

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Speaker 1: listen to more from our friends at Fox nineties. It

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Speaker 1: took place hours ago in broad daylight, and yet it

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Speaker 1: remains taped off, very much an active crime scene. Tonight.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned quiet residential neighborhood of Shockrapy. We're just blocks

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Speaker 1: from downtown. In fact, where we stand, we've been listening

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Speaker 1: into the music of the Wednesday night summer concert series

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Speaker 1: Rhythm on the rails Here. People are parking nearby, they're

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Speaker 1: walking home. I see a gentleman with a cooler heading

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Speaker 1: back to his car. I've speaking to neighbors today. They

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Speaker 1: are absolutely disgusted and alarmed by what unfolded here. Climb

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. I described the saying for me, Paul,

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Speaker 1: because you know it sounds like this wonderful evening where

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Speaker 1: there's going to be a summer concert series. It's a

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Speaker 1: Wednesday evening. This happened that afternoon. Tell me about the location. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's exactly as I said in my report. We're standing

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Speaker 1: there that the scenes taped off. We now know what's happened.

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Speaker 1: Social media video of the event has has circulated, so

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Speaker 1: the community has seen it. And yet a block away

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Speaker 1: on the riverfront in downtown chocopy of you know, a

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Speaker 1: sleepy growing suburb, a couple of you know rings removed

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Speaker 1: from Minneapolis. It's their River Music series, So there's music,

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Speaker 1: people have coolers, people are picnicking outside, they're going to

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Speaker 1: the bars, the restaurant. We're breaking out of the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: and they're literally walking by within a block of the

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Speaker 1: this grizzly crime scene that that investigators are combing over.

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Speaker 1: They took hours. They meticulously photographed, They had their drone

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Speaker 1: up that day. They wanted to map this thing out.

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Speaker 1: It's still bobs my mind how they didn't find the

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Speaker 1: machete initially. It took him another data to find that

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Speaker 1: in a nearby yard. But yeah, that scene was just

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Speaker 1: a really remarkable sort of you know, two different things,

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Speaker 1: the horrors a block away and then the music continuing

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Speaker 1: and people living their lives like nothing had happened. I

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Speaker 1: just wanted our viewers to kind of picture that in

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Speaker 1: that moment. I am. I am Paul Bloom. Paul joining

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Speaker 1: us from Fox nineties Minneapolis. Robert Crispin now private investigator

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Speaker 1: at Crispin's Special Investigations. Robert, that dichotomy that Paul is

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Speaker 1: describing before he said the two very different scenes. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about that, and I think that's something that

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Speaker 1: I never have gotten used to, and it brings to mine.

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Speaker 1: My very first carjack murder trial, and it was of

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Speaker 1: a young man. He had come outside his home for

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Speaker 1: some reason and he was getting out of his car.

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Speaker 1: That's what happened. He parked in front of his home

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Speaker 1: and he was getting out of the car and some

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Speaker 1: guy comes by wants the car, and he not only

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Speaker 1: carjacks the car, but he merged the guy. And there

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Speaker 1: is this beautiful front yard. I think the guy was

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Speaker 1: pretty young too, like maybe nineteen twenty years old that

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Speaker 1: was murdered, and so it had to be the family home.

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Speaker 1: It was a beautiful yard they worked on all the time.

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Speaker 1: And I remember the dichotomy in that case that just

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Speaker 1: stuck me in the heart. The neighbor looked out the

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Speaker 1: window and heard a gunshot, and he saw the victim fall,

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Speaker 1: and the neighbor ran out and put a pillow under

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Speaker 1: the victim's head. And the thought, I mean, the victim

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Speaker 1: was already dead. He got shot in the head. The

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Speaker 1: dichotomy of this lovely yard and trying to make the

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Speaker 1: victim comfortable, there's just something about it that really twists

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Speaker 1: the knife. Now you deal with homicize your homicide investigator

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Speaker 1: all around Florida, for Lauderdale, that's never a lack of business.

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Speaker 1: And when we were discussing this case earlier, Robert Crispin,

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Speaker 1: you said you investigated cases like this and why the

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Speaker 1: women went back to the men like it was their fault.

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Speaker 1: You know, Nancy, the sad part about didn't you say that?

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Speaker 1: I did? Yeah, you did, hear it. What bothered me

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Speaker 1: and what bothers me is these victims of domestic violence,

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Speaker 1: after they've been battered, and you know, after they've gotten

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Speaker 1: out of the hospital, you know, within a week they're

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Speaker 1: going back to the judge and they're telling the judge

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Speaker 1: it didn't happen that way. I want him to come home.

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Speaker 1: I love him, and I don't want to prosecute, and

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Speaker 1: it's just a recipe for disaster because the judges let

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Speaker 1: these no contact orders go and these people get back together,

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Speaker 1: and it just keeps escalating. And I tell you from

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Speaker 1: experience in working these cases my entire career, domestic violence

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Speaker 1: cases escalate, they do. Well, you're right on that, Robert Crispin.

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Speaker 1: I was all ready to well, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: say it on Aaron. I don't think Fox Nay she

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Speaker 1: would like that very much. But you're right, You're right.

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Speaker 1: Very often they get way together. But the reasons for

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Speaker 1: it are reasons we don't understand sometimes so that we

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Speaker 1: can't relate to. Sometimes the woman has zero money, nowhere

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Speaker 1: to go. It's the father of the children. She wants

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Speaker 1: to have this beautiful, happy family that you read about

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Speaker 1: and see on TV, and thinks that somehow she's single

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Speaker 1: handedly can fix the whole thing. So who is this guy?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Minnesota blogger Scott Johnson. Listen. He's

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Speaker 1: a Cuban illegal immigrant. He entered through El Paso in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven and by two twelve there were

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Speaker 1: two deportation orders that he had racked up, and Ice

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Speaker 1: was Ice was not able to deport him because Cuba

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Speaker 1: wouldn't take him back, So we get Cuba's felons an

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Speaker 1: illegal immigrant entering through El Paso by twenty twelve two

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Speaker 1: deportation orders. That doesn't just happen. You have to bring

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Speaker 1: yourself to the attention of authorities to get a deportation order.

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Speaker 1: Let's circle back to the crime. Joining me right now,

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Speaker 1: Senior lecturer at University Texas and Texas A and M

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Speaker 1: Deputy Medical Examiner, Travis, Texas. That's Austin, doctor Kendall Crowns.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, thank you for taking time out to be

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Speaker 1: with us, Doctor Crowns. It doesn't seem to me that

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Speaker 1: it would be very easy physically to be head someone.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to, for instance, dismember a body. How

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Speaker 1: difficult is it to physically be head someone? So it

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Speaker 1: depends on how you go about the process of beheading them.

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Speaker 1: If you are using a machete like is in this case,

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Speaker 1: machetes are usually not very sharp. They're kind of kind

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Speaker 1: of sharp am blunt, so it's difficult to get through

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Speaker 1: the neck musculature the trachea in one swing, so you're

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Speaker 1: gonna have multiple hacking swings and then once you get

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Speaker 1: through the soft tissue, then you have to get through

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Speaker 1: the spinal column and then depending on how you hit

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Speaker 1: the spinal columns, it is hard to hack through. So

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Speaker 1: it's it's a fairly labor intensive process to decapitate someone

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Speaker 1: with the chetty. If you use a sharper implement like

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Speaker 1: a sword, you can get through the tissue and the

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Speaker 1: next structure is quicker. But in the machete cases i've seen,

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Speaker 1: it's usually multiple strikes. Takes a lot of effort to

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Speaker 1: get the head off multiple strikes. The reason I'm asking

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Speaker 1: doctor Kendall Crowns is not for the gory or kurient

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Speaker 1: interest in what happened to America. I'm trying to establish premeditation,

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Speaker 1: and as Randy Kessler and I were discussing, premeditation can

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Speaker 1: be formed in the blink of an eye. It does

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Speaker 1: not require a prolonged plan such as poisoning someone over

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Speaker 1: a period of months. It can be formed in the

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Speaker 1: time it takes to pull a gun and pull the trigger.

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Speaker 1: It's just that fast. So if the beheading takes a

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Speaker 1: lot of effort and probably several hacking motions, Randy Kessler,

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Speaker 1: that's time him to form premeditation based on what doctor

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Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns has said. I agree, but you know, even

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Speaker 1: worse to the defense if he's going to claim self defense,

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Speaker 1: which he seems to be saying, you know, one hatch

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Speaker 1: should be enough to keep her away from her to you, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that just sort of gets rid of any

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Speaker 1: claim he has it that it was her fault that

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Speaker 1: he had to defend himselfs So, you know, the premeditation

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Speaker 1: maybe that you know, he could argue the first first

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Speaker 1: attempt wasn't premeditated, but when he kept going, you're right,

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Speaker 1: that gets rid of any any defense that this was

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Speaker 1: not premeditated. He kept going, so you know, one time

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Speaker 1: at it, this is a reaction. I just grabbed whatever

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Speaker 1: I saw and I hit her with it. That the

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Speaker 1: hatchett was there, the machete he happened to be my

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Speaker 1: car because I was working a job where I was

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Speaker 1: using it. You know, all that goes out the window

425
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: when it's more than one strike this time, you're right,

426
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: climb stories with Meancy Grace to Paul Bloom, reporter Fox

427
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: nine News Minneapolis, who is the elected District Attorney district's

428
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: attorney in Scott County. His name is Ron Hochavar, County

429
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: attorney here in Scott County. But just to follow through

430
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 1: on what you what you guys were talking about with

431
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: the machete. You know, witnesses report here do do quote

432
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: as seeing you know, several strikes, actually thinking it's a

433
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: it's a baton or a bat of some kind. You

434
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: know that they're watching something like that, like someone get beaten.

435
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: They didn't realize in the moment that it was a

436
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: machete that was being used to hack off America's head. Guys,

437
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: you're talking about a beautiful young woman. I'm looking at

438
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: a picture right now, long, curly blonde hair, perfect teeth.

439
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm looking at her at her job and

440
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: she's smiling for somebody, and she's dead. She was beheaded

441
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: by this guy, an illegal immigrant who has two deportation

442
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: orders on him. But who is she and what was

443
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: the nature of their relationship? Take a listen now to

444
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: our friends at crime Online. There's co workers say they

445
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: saw signs that America is abused. Three women, all Dollar

446
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: Tree workers, say that there had once come to work

447
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: with a broken arm and bruises on her face. They

448
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: say there would set up a FaceTime on her phone

449
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: so her boyfriend of seven years could watch her at work.

450
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: Co workers say they were concerned by Savoreet's controlling behavior,

451
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: and often Thayer would stay over with friends to avoid him.

452
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: Riva Scar until The Star Tribune that Savoy would not

453
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: allow there to use the bathroom alone during a visit

454
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: to her apartment. Scar also says there would sometimes sleep

455
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: at her desk, at her my pillow job, or in

456
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: her car at the Amazon Fulfillment Center parking lot. Fox

457
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: nine reporter Mary McGuire tweeted that one of Thayer's former

458
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: co workers says she asked why Thare didn't leave. According

459
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: to the co worker, Thayer said, if I leave, he

460
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: will kill me. If I believe he will kill me,

461
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: Well there's your answer, Robert Crispin as to why she

462
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: hadn't left yet, she was afraid he'd killer. That's exactly

463
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: what happens. So exactly what happens. They're afraid to leave

464
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: these people, and you know these people in these suspects,

465
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: they just flip out when they're going to lose their

466
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: their spouse, and this is what happens in these cases.

467
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: It's just it's sad, it's heartbreaking, especially when someone goes

468
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: and listen, no contact order because they're afraid of losing

469
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: their beautiful house or losing the income from the spouse

470
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: of their two or three kids, he would kill her

471
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: or her children. Listen. I have been to the exact

472
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: same house eight to ten times on domestic violence cases,

473
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: and every single time we went out, every single time

474
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: we went out, the violence escalated and he would get arrested.

475
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: And I will tell you this in the O. J.

476
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: Simpson case that really helped law enforcement and prosecutors moving forward.

477
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: Where back in the day if you remember this, of

478
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: course you were a prosecutor. You know, law enforcements showed

479
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: up and there was a domestic violence case and she's like, oh, no, no,

480
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: no, no no, I'm okay, no no, no, I fell I

481
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: hit my hit my nose. I'm sorry. They didn't arrest. Now,

482
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: the state of Florida will prosecute you without the victim cooperative. Sadly,

483
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: Nicole Brown was right because the Simpson jury saw a

484
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: picture of her up on a screen with her face

485
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: mangled black and blue by J. Simpson, and they still

486
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: acquitted him. So I guess Nicole Brown was right. Guys,

487
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: if you disagree with the district attorney sitting on his

488
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: rear end. I guess he's having a big fat cup

489
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: of coffee right now, probably an eight dollars cup of

490
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: coffee from the Starbucks. Here's his phone number nine five

491
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: two four nine six eight two four zero, nine five

492
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: two four and nine six eight two four zero. Who

493
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: will speak up for America? There? Who? If not us,

494
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: then who? And PS? You can tell him I sent you.

495
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this America. Thayer and her boyfriend

496
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: Alexis Saboret had been dating for seven years, but the

497
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: forty two year old had a history of criminal domestic abuse.

498
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: Savoy was convicted in twenty seventeen for an attack against there.

499
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: When police arrived at the home, Savory was holding her

500
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: to the ground. Officers say there told them the fight

501
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: began when Savory thought she was talking to another man

502
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: at a bar. A pre trial no contact order was

503
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: put in place, but theyre wrote to the court to

504
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: have the order removed. According to the Sun, she told

505
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: the court they had lived together for four years at

506
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: that time and had never had a problem. The court

507
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: granted her petition. You know, I'm curious about something you

508
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: reported earlier. Paul Bloom joining me from Fox's Nine Knees

509
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: in Minnesota. In Minneapolis specifically, Paul, did I hear someone

510
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: report that he would not let her go to the

511
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: bathroom alone? Was controlling? Absolutely, there were issues in that

512
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: house or that household. U. The police knew it in

513
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: the immediate aftermath as I'm heading to that scene, and

514
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: they know who they're dealing with. They knew exactly this couple, sadly,

515
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: because there were these issues of the domestic violence in

516
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: the home and he's busted a couple of years earlier.

517
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: And as your panelists have been talking about, you know,

518
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: the women, um, you know, going to a judge in

519
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: this case, in that case file, tragically America has this

520
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, emotional handwritten note in the case file asking

521
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: the judge to drop the no contact order and let

522
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: Savory come home. That it was one argument and that's

523
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: beyond them now and it's just sort of a tragic,

524
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: you know, elements of to the bathroom by yourself. It

525
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: sounds like r Kelly. Doctor Sherry schwartz I says, some

526
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: people blame the victim here America. But you know what,

527
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: sometimes you want something so badly, you want to believe

528
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: you can have this happy home. You don't want to

529
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: acknowledge what's going on. What is that, doctor Sherry Sports.

530
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I know the word would be denial, but

531
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: what is that where you are in danger but you

532
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: still can't get your mind around the reality of how

533
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: you're living. Well. What we know about this, particularly women

534
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: who are intimate partner violence victims, is that they do

535
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: tend to be high in empathy. But also she had

536
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: been with him for quite some time, at least a

537
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: few years prior to this other episode, right, so she

538
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: probably felt that she could manage the situation, and she

539
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: was clearly afraid of him. If she's telling friends, I

540
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: can't leave because he will kill me. She's working at

541
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: the Dollar Tree, so she's not somebody who's very wealthy

542
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: and can afford to take her family and move to

543
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: an undisclosed location. And her empathy probably made her feel

544
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: sorry for him. And I've heard a lot of talk

545
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: about what she did in terms of asking the judge

546
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: to please remove this injunction so that they could communicate legally.

547
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: And what we're not talking about is what he was

548
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: likely doing to manipulate her into doing that, which is

549
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 1: after a violent episode where the person isn't killed, there's

550
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 1: this honeymoon phase where the person, the abuser, tends to

551
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: be very remorseful and manipulate the victim's emotion, saying, you know,

552
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, you know, and maybe blames some external reason,

553
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: maybe I was drunk, or I was high, or even

554
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: sometimes blames the victim and says, well, you know, when

555
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: you do that certain thing, it just makes me crazy,

556
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 1: and how am I going to survive without you? So

557
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 1: I think it's really important that people think about it's

558
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: not just the victim's behavior, it's what is the perpetrator,

559
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: the abuser doing behind the scenes to manipulate this victim

560
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: who's clearly afraid of him. Guys, we are talking about

561
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: a beautiful young woman now dead, beheaded in broad daylight

562
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: in a suburban area. If you have a friend or

563
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: a relative, neighbor, coworker that is suffering from domestic abuse,

564
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: please you call have her call toll free eight hundred

565
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: seven nine nine seven two three three repeat eight hundred

566
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: seven nine nine seven two three three. Paul Bloom, I'd

567
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: like to know what's going to happen now now, But

568
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: as long as the elected district attorney does nothing, We

569
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: don't have the answer to that, do we We don't

570
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: know at this point. No, obviously if the grand jury

571
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: process here is secretive, so we have no idea. Again,

572
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: I know you describe it as a very simple process.

573
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: So it's certainly not going to defend you know, the

574
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: county attorneys, you know, actions in recent weeks, but there

575
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: is a timeline that they do follow here in the

576
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: courts in Minnesota. So we'll see if we get that

577
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: first degree murder indictment in the meantime, Just so you know,

578
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: every grand jury is secret. Take a listen to our

579
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: cut seventeen our friend Tyler Hunt at crime Online. On

580
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: the day Thare died, she and Savory went to a

581
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: park planning to go to a court appearance for an

582
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: earlier offense. He tells police that on the way, Thayer

583
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: allegedly says she wants to end their relationship. In Savoy's words,

584
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: she had gone too far, He admits the police he

585
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: dragged there from the car, hacking at her with a machete.

586
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: Police arrived to find Thayer's headless body on the ground

587
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: next to her bloodied car. Her head was a foot away.

588
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: She was trying to leave the single most dangerous time

589
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: for a woman in an abusive relationship. Well it's on

590
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: the DA now we wait as justice unfolds. God willing

591
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace crime story, signing out, goodbye friend,