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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grease.

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Speaker 2: Furious parents, angry, full of grief, of mourning, of red

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Speaker 2: hot anger.

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Speaker 3: Why because their teen girl.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely stunning with a loving heart, musically so talented, Their

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Speaker 2: teen daughter, Jillian is dead, dead from a stray bullet

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Speaker 2: fired by a career criminal. This little girl out just

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Speaker 2: walking in a park on a track, minding her own business.

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Speaker 3: She's dead, dead at the.

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Speaker 2: Hands of a career criminal that should have been behind bars.

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Speaker 2: How many more times are we going to stand by

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Speaker 2: and let this happen in our great country? How many

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Speaker 2: more times will politicians get away with lad blah blah

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Speaker 2: trying to explain why yet another innocent person is dead

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Speaker 2: because the justice system failed because of overcrowding in jails,

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Speaker 2: because of incompetence, of letting somebody walk that should have

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Speaker 2: been doing hard jail time or at least in a facility.

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Speaker 2: How can you, as a judge, as a prosecutor, as

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Speaker 2: a defense attorney, with a good conscience, in good conscience,

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Speaker 2: let somebody walk out that courthouse door, knowing they are

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Speaker 2: a threat to others in doing nothing. If I had

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Speaker 2: my way, which of course I don't, that'll be behind

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Speaker 2: bars along with the killer. I Nancy Grace. This is

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories and Serious x SEM one eleven. What happened?

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Speaker 4: Listen?

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Speaker 5: Enjoying the beautiful weather in Nashville. Jillian Ludwig is walking

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Speaker 5: on the track in edge Hill Community Memorial Gardens Park

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Speaker 5: at two thirty in the afternoon when gunshots ring out

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Speaker 5: across the street from the park. Not the intended target.

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Speaker 5: She is hidding the head with a stray bullet and

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Speaker 5: falls to the ground. Nobody else is on the track.

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Speaker 5: Jillian Ludwig suffers for nearly an hour before she has

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Speaker 5: found a passer by fines Ludwig and calls for help

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Speaker 5: at three point thirty and she's transported to Vanderbilt University

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Speaker 5: Medical Center in very critical condition.

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Speaker 4: All right there, I want to find out everything.

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Speaker 2: Joining me in addition to family and friends of Jillian's

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Speaker 2: family first too, Marissa Sulik joining us out of Nashville

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Speaker 2: with w SMV.

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Speaker 4: Marrissa, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: First of all, this is in broad daylight at two

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Speaker 2: point thirty in the afternoon.

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Speaker 6: To thirty in the afternoon. Yup, you're right, Nancy. It

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Speaker 6: was she was out for a run, a walk, and me.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I'm a runner too. I ran past that

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Speaker 6: park and this just happened. And she was laying there

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Speaker 6: for an hour before that passerby waved police down. And

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Speaker 6: we've heard from police that they actually someone at the precinct,

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Speaker 6: which is right by that park as well, heard a bullet.

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Speaker 6: They heard a gunshot, and someone went to go check

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Speaker 6: it out, didn't find anything, and it took a whole

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Speaker 6: hour for finally that passerby to wave someone down.

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Speaker 2: So she lies there on this track for nearly an

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Speaker 2: hour before anyone realizes she's been shot. To Jerry Wainwright,

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Speaker 2: a special guest joining us, right, Jillian Ludwig, that's got

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Speaker 2: to torture the mom and dad so much, knowing their

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Speaker 2: daughter laid there and suffered before anyone even found her.

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Speaker 7: It does, it does. I have to say that we

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Speaker 7: have all drawn some comfort from the fact that Jillian

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Speaker 7: likely never saw it coming. She had her AirPods in.

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Speaker 7: I'm sure she didn't hear the shots ring out. I

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Speaker 7: know I've heard that there were six. I don't know

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Speaker 7: if the first bullet hitter or the fourth, or but regardless,

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Speaker 7: I think the element of surprise allows us to find

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Speaker 7: some comfort in that to know that she wasn't terrified

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Speaker 7: or scared or attacked or that for her it was

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Speaker 7: it was unexpected. And I believe from what I understand

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Speaker 7: that she was unconscious from the moment she was hit

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Speaker 7: and unaware, and that is reassuring somehow.

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Speaker 2: You're right, because to doctor Sherry Schwartz, joining US forensic

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Speaker 2: psychologists specializing in victim advocacy and criminal cases. You can

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Speaker 2: find her at panthermitigation dot com. She is the author

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Speaker 2: of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology intersect issues

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Speaker 2: in legal psychology, Doctor Sherry, I mean, to this day

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Speaker 2: I like to tell myself my fiancee Keith didn't feel anything,

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Speaker 2: didn't know anything because he was shot five.

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Speaker 4: Times in the head, the neck, the back.

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Speaker 2: But he was actually alive, still alive when his body

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Speaker 2: when he was transported to the hospital. He was alive

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Speaker 2: when he got there. If I really look at it

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Speaker 2: and the cold light of day, he probably did feel

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Speaker 2: much of what happened to.

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Speaker 8: You know, Nancy, I'm so sorry that that happened to

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Speaker 8: you and sorry to Jillian Ludwig's family. Scene about what

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Speaker 8: we know about what victims go through is that torture

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Speaker 8: and look how many years ago that you went through

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Speaker 8: this and you still think about it. This is the

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Speaker 8: kind of deep, complex trauma that quite literally can torture

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Speaker 8: victims and their loved ones. It is unconscionable that this happened,

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Speaker 8: and that the laws in place didn't protect Jillian, and

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Speaker 8: that her family has to suffer this tremendous law.

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Speaker 2: I just hate the road they're going down. It's a

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Speaker 2: road that's going to last the rest of their lives.

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Speaker 2: Because you know, doctor.

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Speaker 4: Sherry Sports, you know what.

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Speaker 2: Let me throw this to Andy conn joining me, a

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Speaker 2: long time colleague and now friend, Director of Victim Services

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Speaker 2: and Advocacy Crimestoppers of Houston.

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Speaker 4: Andy.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times even now, and now I'm married

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Speaker 2: to David, I have the twins that I'm my number

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Speaker 2: one concern on this earth anyway. But I still wake

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Speaker 2: up and I think sometimes in the very early morning,

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Speaker 2: around five o'clock when I normally wake up, I wake

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Speaker 2: up thinking about Keith slumped over in that truck, how

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Speaker 2: they been shot.

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Speaker 4: So many times, And it's almost as if.

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling what he felt like. Did it feel like

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Speaker 2: just he got hit in the head when he fell over?

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Speaker 2: Did he realize what happened to him? Was he aware

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Speaker 2: when paramedics put him on a gurney? Did he try

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Speaker 2: to move his arms and legs and he couldn't?

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Speaker 4: Did it hurt?

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Speaker 2: I mean this to this day, and I guess that

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Speaker 2: means I was dreaming about it because I'm thinking about

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Speaker 2: it as I wake up. And then when I look

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Speaker 2: at the twins, I think, will anything happen to them today?

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Speaker 4: Will they be safe? You know, it lasts a lifetime.

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Speaker 9: Andy, as you know, you know as a board member

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Speaker 9: of the Houston Chapter of Parents Murger Children, and I've

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Speaker 9: been working in assisting homicide survivors now for over thirty years.

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Speaker 9: You essentially, as you phrase it, you got a life

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Speaker 9: sentence as well. This just doesn't go away. There is

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Speaker 9: no such word like the media likes to use as closure.

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Speaker 9: But for the Ludwigs family, the grief is intensified because

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Speaker 9: now you find out the background of the defendant who's

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Speaker 9: now going to be charged with Jillian's murder. And the

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Speaker 9: reality is, and this is how I phrase it, is

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Speaker 9: the offender deserves his fair share of the blame, but frankly,

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Speaker 9: I blame are incompetent and this is probably the only

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Speaker 9: time you're going to actually hear the word incompetent with

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Speaker 9: the right usage. I blame the incompetence of the Tennessee

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Speaker 9: justice system for allowing a known habitual violent offunder with

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Speaker 9: a rap sheet going back to two thousand eleven, with

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Speaker 9: multiple convictions involving a gun, and you put him right

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Speaker 9: back in the same community, knowing full well he's going

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Speaker 9: to continue his criminal career. The state of Tennessee, from

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Speaker 9: my perspective, is culpable and frankly, even more complicit in

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Speaker 9: the murder of Julian This really picks me up.

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Speaker 2: Do you not just hear me say at the get go,

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Speaker 2: I think they should all be in jail with him.

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Speaker 9: Oh absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I think there's an echo, and that echo is Andy Kahn.

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Speaker 3: But you're right, How can you in good conscience?

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Speaker 2: I mean Andy, after Keith murder, I never discussed Keith

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Speaker 2: murder with anyone. I went through all my years of

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Speaker 2: law school. I dropped out of school, went back to

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Speaker 2: college to finish through two jobs before I made it

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Speaker 2: to the DA's office. Do you know I was in

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Speaker 2: the DA's office full ten years in the inter city Atlanta.

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Speaker 2: I think I only confided to maybe two people the

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Speaker 2: whole time I was there about what had happened to Keith.

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Speaker 4: And do you know every time I even got.

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Speaker 2: So much as a theft receiving stolen vehicle, I would

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Speaker 2: read their rap sheet and I would think, with every case,

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Speaker 2: is this guy gonna get out and kill somebody? Is

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Speaker 2: there any indication he's going to do that? Because if

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Speaker 2: there is, he's going to jail for as long as

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Speaker 2: I can keep him there.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grease.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how in good conscious you could send

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Speaker 2: this guy back out the courthouse door. And now Jillian,

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Speaker 2: beautiful teen, Jillian is dead.

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Speaker 5: Listen as Jillian Ludwig finds for her life. Vanderbilt University

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Speaker 5: Medical Center police arrest twenty nine year old Shaquille Taylor.

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Speaker 5: According to a police affidavit. Surveillance video and witness statements

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Speaker 5: pointed to Taylor as the shooter. Video shows Ludwig falling

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Speaker 5: as Taylor fires at a nearby car. Jillian Ludwig, the

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Speaker 5: eighteen year old Belmont University freshman student, died overnight.

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Speaker 2: Miss Wainwright is with Jerry Wainwright, the great of Jillian Ludwig.

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Speaker 2: Miss Wainwright, when did you learn Jillian had died.

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Speaker 7: I was there. I was at the hospital with her.

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Speaker 7: I had flown down that morning on a six am

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Speaker 7: flight after I had heard that she had been shot

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Speaker 7: to be supportive of my family, so I knew in

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Speaker 7: real time it was the worst day of my life

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Speaker 7: without exception. You know, we're talking about the shooter and

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Speaker 7: the injustice of it all, and the reality is of

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Speaker 7: this higher situation that the people that deemed him unfit

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Speaker 7: to stand trial yet not reaching whatever benchmark they have

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Speaker 7: in place for involuntary commitment, are most definitely at fault

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Speaker 7: here because this man in his most recent his most

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Speaker 7: recent arrest was for shooting a gun at a car

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Speaker 7: with a woman in two babies in it. I'm not

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Speaker 7: sure how anybody in their right mind could determine that

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Speaker 7: he was not a danger to others when the decision

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Speaker 7: was made to really.

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Speaker 2: Did you say, shooting at a car with a lady

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Speaker 2: and two children in the car?

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Speaker 7: A three year old and a one year old were

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Speaker 7: in that car. He was arrested for aggravated assault in

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Speaker 7: April for shooting at a car with a woman and

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Speaker 7: two babies in it.

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Speaker 3: Marisa Sheelick, Is this true?

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Speaker 6: Absolutely true?

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Speaker 7: He was released based on the fact that he was

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Speaker 7: inconfidence and that he was not a danger to others.

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Speaker 2: So they're saying, well, well, he's incompetent to stand trial,

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Speaker 2: but that.

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Speaker 7: He was not a danger to others. And he clearly

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Speaker 7: what do you what do you have to do to

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Speaker 7: prove that you're a danger to others when you've shot

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Speaker 7: at human beings in a car.

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Speaker 2: So they don't send him in jail, and they don't

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Speaker 2: send him to a facility to treat him.

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Speaker 9: Neither one Nancy in this. In May of twenty three,

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Speaker 9: that's when they released him from custody on the aggravated

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Speaker 9: assault with the deadly when he shot into the car.

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Speaker 9: And here's where it gets even more infuriating, because four

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Speaker 9: months later, in September, he's charged with autosep as part

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Speaker 9: of a carjacking ring. So now you're charged with another felony,

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Speaker 9: but you're deemed suitable to be released on bail after

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Speaker 9: three months. You were just declared and competent, yet you're

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Speaker 9: released on bail. And of course he doesn't show up

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Speaker 9: the next day.

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Speaker 2: Andy, you're preaching to the choir, Matthew Mangino, I hear

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Speaker 2: you jumping in, but I want you to hear some

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Speaker 2: thing else, Matthew, you're hearing Jerry Wainwright, who is the

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Speaker 2: great aunt of Jillian, teen girl, Jillian Ludwig, who has

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Speaker 2: now passed away. This is a heavily residential area. And

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Speaker 2: this guy, the defendant, is shooting a gun at a

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Speaker 2: car again.

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Speaker 4: We've had a car jacking.

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Speaker 2: We've had him shooting at a car with a lady

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Speaker 2: and her two babies in the car. Now he shoots

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Speaker 2: at a car again, and he ends up shooting this

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Speaker 2: beautiful girl, Jillian. Jerry, when did you learn she had

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Speaker 2: been shot? Where were you?

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Speaker 7: I was at work on Tuesday night. My niece called

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Speaker 7: me at work and at first said that Jillian because

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Speaker 7: we didn't know. She said that she had been hurt

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Speaker 7: and that she was in the hospital, and you know,

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Speaker 7: we rushed to get her to get her on a flight,

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Speaker 7: and then I texted my mind. Then my niece called

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Speaker 7: me back and said, she's been shot in the head.

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Speaker 7: She's been hysterical, she's been shot in the head. And

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Speaker 7: I just said, you know, I mean, what do you

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Speaker 7: say to that? It was it was unconscionable, right, like,

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Speaker 7: that isn't even possible. So I told her that I

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Speaker 7: would be there on the first flight in the morning,

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Speaker 7: and I got on a six am flight, and at

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Speaker 7: that point they had told us that she likely wouldn't

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Speaker 7: survive the injury, and I was just hoping to make

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Speaker 7: it there while she was still still with us. And yeah,

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Speaker 7: she died later that day at six twenty nine pm.

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Speaker 7: Actually she was pronounced dead. And so another another point

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Speaker 7: that I would like to make about the criminal involved

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Speaker 7: in this is that in art justice system, if in

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Speaker 7: fact they determined that this man had the intelligence or

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Speaker 7: the intellectual capacity of our five year old, which I

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Speaker 7: find hard to believe because he's certainly with a depth

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Speaker 7: around guns, right, But if in fact that was true,

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Speaker 7: even children in our society, if a child uses a

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Speaker 7: gun in a violent crime, they're detained to a juvenile

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Speaker 7: detention facility. They're not just that free. So where is

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Speaker 7: the logic in all of this? Where is the.

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Speaker 2: There is none, y, there is none. And I hope

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Speaker 2: that people responsible for letting him walk are just as

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Speaker 2: sick as I am right now hearing it times one hundred.

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Speaker 2: They need to be brought to justice. They need to

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Speaker 2: be held accountable as well. What's interesting, also, Andy Khan,

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Speaker 2: is we keep hearing, Oh, Jillian was not the intended victim.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: I actually had a case where a teen boy was

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Speaker 2: coming home from band practice and a doper to dopers

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Speaker 2: shot him dead. And guess what their defense was at trial.

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Speaker 9: It's very similar, I can well imagine because when I

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Speaker 9: was at parole.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was transferred intent Andy, Oh, I meant to

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Speaker 2: shoot Jackie, but I kill Sydney in staid that's not

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Speaker 2: a defense.

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Speaker 3: I meant to kill That's all that matters.

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Speaker 9: I had a guy on parole for murder and he

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Speaker 9: looked at me and he goes, mister con I want

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Speaker 9: you to know I didn't kill that guy. I didn't

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Speaker 9: mean to kill that guy. I meant to kill the

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Speaker 9: other guy. And I was like, okay, what do you

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Speaker 9: want me to pardon? You?

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Speaker 3: Guys?

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Speaker 2: Who is this beautiful girl? Who is Jillian? Listen to

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Speaker 2: our friends at crime online dot com.

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Speaker 5: Jillian Ludwig is passionate about music. Having graduated from Wall

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Speaker 5: High School in June, Jillian Ludwig enjoys time with friends

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Speaker 5: and boyfriend as she prepares to leave for Nashville and

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Speaker 5: college life. She loves the beatic nature, music and performing

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Speaker 5: in the local places. Ludwig arrives on campus at all

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Speaker 5: My University for her freshman year and immediately impacts the

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Speaker 5: local music scene. In her first weeks of college, she

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Speaker 5: settled into a routine playing lots of music, but also

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Speaker 5: getting outside and enjoying the weather. Nashville is a big

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Speaker 5: change from her native New Jersey, and Jillian Ludwig loves

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Speaker 5: jogging and walking around the park.

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Speaker 2: Can you imagine here she is going off to college.

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Speaker 2: It's a beautiful, beautiful fall day, November seven, and she

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Speaker 2: is out, loving life, loving life, minding your own business

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Speaker 2: in a park and a heavily residential area when shots

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Speaker 2: ring out. But in researching and asking questions about Jillian,

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Speaker 2: I find out that she was loving and giving and

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Speaker 2: the apple of everyone's eye even as a little girl listening.

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Speaker 5: Growing up in Jersey, jillianound joy and gave joy through music.

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Speaker 5: She sang and served as canter for years at Saint

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Speaker 5: Mark's Church, and Seegert was very involved with lake House

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Speaker 5: Music Academy in Asbury Park, singing and playing guitar and

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Speaker 5: bass with multiple bands, as well as teaching young music students,

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Speaker 5: playing local music spots like Stone Pony and Asbury Lane's

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Speaker 5: as well as some gigs in New York City. Music

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Speaker 5: led her to initiate a service project called Playing It Forward.

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Speaker 5: She would play her music at a local venue, then

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Speaker 5: donate all the proceeds, including tips, to organizations helping musicians

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Speaker 5: in need, including children.

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Speaker 2: Children that did not have access to instruments or music

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Speaker 2: education like she had access. She actually wanted to help

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Speaker 2: other people. You know, it makes me think of my mom.

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Speaker 2: They grew up dirt poor. My mom was a musical superstar.

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Speaker 2: Someone paid an anonymous donor. To this day, we don't

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Speaker 2: know who it was. Paid for her music education from

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Speaker 2: first grade all the way till she studied at Wesleyan

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Speaker 2: College for Women.

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Speaker 4: She never knew who donated that.

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Speaker 2: She went on to play in the symphony and become

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Speaker 2: a professional musician. That is what this young girl was

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Speaker 2: doing for other children, giving up her own tips, her

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Speaker 2: own money she'd make playing to help these children that

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Speaker 2: had no music education, that couldn't afford instruments. That's who

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Speaker 2: Jillian Ludwig was. Now, who is her killer? Her alleged

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Speaker 2: killer Take a listener our cut six.

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Speaker 5: She killed Taylor, the man arrested in the shooting death

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Speaker 5: of Jillian Ludwig is someone well known to law enforcement,

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Speaker 5: with the record stretching back more than a decade. His

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Speaker 5: latest arrest was on September twenty first, driving a Ford

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Speaker 5: F one to fifty pickup truck that had been carjacked

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Speaker 5: by two men wearing ski masks. Taylor was charged with

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Speaker 5: felony auto theft and was released on a twenty thousand

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Speaker 5: dollars bond. Taylor was doing court just days before the

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Speaker 5: shooting of Jillian Ludwig, but failed to show up. A

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Speaker 5: failure to appear warrant was issued and that was the

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Speaker 5: added charged to Taylor's arrested in the shooting death of Ludwig.

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Speaker 2: So bottom line, Marissa still joining us from WS in Nashville. Well,

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Speaker 2: you always call them bf's bond forfeiter. When you don't

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Speaker 2: show up to court, you get arrested. I don't care

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Speaker 2: where you are. You are found and arrested. And this

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Speaker 2: guy was a stone's throw off where he always is,

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Speaker 2: but he wasn't picked up and brought in.

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Speaker 4: Isn't that true, Marissa?

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Speaker 10: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I mean, and we have done extensive reporting on this,

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Speaker 6: just weeks before Jillian was killed. Our I team, our

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Speaker 6: investigative team found out after they talked with Glenn Fung,

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Speaker 6: the district attorney, that there are two hundred and twenty

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Speaker 6: nine criminals like Taylor just roaming the streets here in

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Speaker 6: Nashville that have been deemed incompetent to stand trial. So

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Speaker 6: that means they don't understand how a jerry works technically,

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Speaker 6: they don't know how lawyers work. So this is very

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Speaker 6: frustrating that they don't have the funding. They don't have

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Speaker 6: the funding to get them these evaluations, the training they've

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Speaker 6: gone to wants except the Senate and the passing that

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Speaker 6: this past sessions. They're trying to bring it back in January.

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Speaker 6: But even Glenn Soong, the District Attorney, said, just a

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Speaker 6: couple of weeks ago, before Julian was killed, he told

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Speaker 6: our chief investigative reporter, Jeremy Finley, that's just a matter

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Speaker 6: of time before someone else is hurt. And then this happened.

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Speaker 4: They let it happen.

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Speaker 2: Joining me high profile lawyer Matthew Mangina, former District Attorney

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Speaker 2: Lawrence County, author of The Executioners Toll.

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Speaker 10: Matthew jump in, well, Nancy, you know and certainly I

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Speaker 10: understand this process to determine whether somebody is competent or

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Speaker 10: incompetent to stand trial. They can't aid in their own defense,

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Speaker 10: and there's evaluations done and that determination is made that

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Speaker 10: they're not competent to be tried. The second issue though,

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Speaker 10: with this individual is should he have been on the street.

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Speaker 10: Should there have been an involuntary commitment of him because

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Speaker 10: of his dangerousness which he had demonstrated through his criminal record.

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Speaker 10: And I don't see when I look at these media

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Speaker 10: reports that there was ever a psychiatric detention hearing. You know,

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Speaker 10: you can in involuntarily commit somebody for three days and

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Speaker 10: then you have a hearing in front of a master

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Speaker 10: or a judge. That person can then be held for

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Speaker 10: an additional fifteen days. But there's criteria that you have

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Speaker 10: to meet that did two doctors say that that individual

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Speaker 10: is dangerous to the community? Was that ever even done?

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Speaker 9: Well?

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Speaker 2: I can give you a little bit of the history,

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Speaker 2: Matthew Mangino, Actually take a listen to this.

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Speaker 5: Shake Kille Taylor has a criminal history dating mank to

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Speaker 5: twenty eleven. Police seized a forty caliber handgun from Taylor

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Speaker 5: when he was a juvenile. In twenty fifteen, Taylor was

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Speaker 5: charged with robbery and given probation. Taylor violated the terms

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Speaker 5: of his proas charged with aggravated burglary and was sentenced

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Speaker 5: to a year in jail in twenty sixteen. In twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty one, Taylor was arrested and charged with aggravated assault

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Speaker 5: when he fired a gun into a car with two

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Speaker 5: children in the back seat. In May of twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 5: he was released from custody after three court appointed psychologists

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Speaker 5: deemed him incompetent to stand trial, but also found he

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Speaker 5: didn't pose threat to himself for others. He admitted to

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Speaker 5: detectives in twenty twenty one that he did it and

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Speaker 5: more listen. Shaquille Taylor, twenty nine has an intellectual disability

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Speaker 5: and language impairment, according to records. With that determination, it

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Speaker 5: means he isn't able to participate in a trial where

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Speaker 5: he's accused of shooting into a car in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 5: Besides the intended target, the car that he shot into

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Speaker 5: had two children in the back seat, a three year

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Speaker 5: old and a one year old. Taylor even admitted to

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Speaker 5: detectives in twenty twenty one that he did it. Taylor

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Speaker 5: spent time in jail being interviewed by doctors, but they

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Speaker 5: all agreed that what is called further training or medical

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Speaker 5: care would not change his competency. So despite admitting to

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Speaker 5: detectives that he shot into a car with children inside,

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Speaker 5: charges were dismissed and he was released from custody.

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Speaker 2: We just cover the case of Colt mom Lorie Valo,

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Speaker 2: who was deemed incompetent to stand trial. All that means is,

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Speaker 2: at the time of trial you are not able to

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Speaker 2: assist your lawyer.

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Speaker 4: In your own defense. That does not mean you're insane.

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Speaker 2: It means you're incompetent to stand trial at that moment.

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Speaker 2: So what did they do with coltman Laurie Value. They

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Speaker 2: kept her behind bars and got her ready to the

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Speaker 2: point that she was competent.

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Speaker 4: So here, even.

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Speaker 2: Though this guy keeps shooting at people over and over

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Speaker 2: in carjacking, shooting at cars, committing one crime after the next,

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Speaker 2: they don't put him in a facility for the mellly impaired,

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Speaker 2: and they don't put him in jail.

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Speaker 3: Their answer is to put him back on the street.

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Speaker 9: Andy kN know, Texas, you remain committed, and I'm fairly

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Speaker 9: sure that in most states you remain committed until you're

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Speaker 9: deemed competent to stand trial. You just don't get putted

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Speaker 9: right back to the community. And how do you explain

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Speaker 9: in competency when a defendant evidently has no problems driving

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Speaker 9: all around Nashville firing off guns. He's got a girlfriend,

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Speaker 9: he lives.

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Speaker 10: On his own.

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Speaker 9: Explain how that is deemed in competent.

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Speaker 2: Whoa wait, he drives a car, lives on his own,

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Speaker 2: and has a girlfriend.

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Speaker 9: Yes, yet he's okay, Doctor.

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Speaker 2: Sherry Schwartz says, it's not a guy with the mind

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Speaker 2: of a five year old. He's got a girlfriend, drives

440
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 2: a car, has a driver's license, and lives on his.

441
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 8: Own, exactly, and we know he knows how to use

442
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 8: a gun and likes using guns. So I, as a

443
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 8: forensic mental health professional, I'm over here just inside screaming

444
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 8: because I'm sorry, I don't see how you arrived at

445
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 8: the conclusion as a forensic mental health professional that this

446
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 8: is not someone who poses a danger to society.

447
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 6: I also want to point out that he.

448
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 10: Worked at a local fast food.

449
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 6: Restaurant with someone that we actually spoke with, and she

450
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 6: was like, he was normal and fine. There was nothing

451
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 6: that said that he was five years old or at

452
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 6: least acted like a kindergartener according to some evaluation.

453
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: Okay, you're hearing Marissa Sulik with WS and vate. Could

454
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: you please say that again? Who in the h E

455
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: double L said this guy was incompetent. He works at

456
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: a fast food restaurant, He lives on his own, he

457
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: has a girlfriend, he has a driver's license, he drives

458
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: a car, and he knows how to shoot a gun. Yeah,

459
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: help me, Marissa, what more can you tell me about

460
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: him working at a fast food restaurant.

461
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 6: Well, we talked with actually a friend of his that

462
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 6: worked at that fast food restaurant, which is actually just

463
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 6: right by our station, and she was shocked. I mean

464
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,479
Speaker 6: she found out maybe a few days after Jillian was

465
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 6: killed that and when she saw his mugshot, she was like, wait,

466
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 6: I actually work with this guy and happens to be

467
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 6: someone we all know at the station. So she was like, yeah,

468
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 6: he's totally fine. He has like his brother's a manager there. Everything,

469
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 6: he acts completely normal. But still there's three doctors, according

470
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 6: to court documents, that still deem him incompetence to stand trial.

471
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 2: Now, it's my understanding that marris' ciela can you may

472
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: be able to show a line on this that.

473
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 3: His family she killed.

474
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: Taylor's family says the system has failed him.

475
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 6: Yeah, they're right. We've spoken with his grandmother and I've

476
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 6: seen his mom and dad in the courtroom for it

477
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 6: hearing that he did not appear in because he waived

478
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 6: his first appearance. But yeah, they straight up told us

479
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 6: the system has failed their son or grandson.

480
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 2: Okay, to Jerry Wainwright, she is the great aunt of

481
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: Jillian Ludwig, who is almost like a pawn in this

482
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: whole thing. We're not even talking about her and her

483
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: musical talents and how her family loved her and how

484
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: she was the apple of their eye, and how she's

485
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: minding her own business going for a jog slash walk

486
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: at a park in a heavily residential area when this

487
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: guy she killed Taylor opens fire and kills her, and.

488
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 4: Now we learn he's not incompetent at all.

489
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Greece.

490
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: Jerry.

491
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: Do her parents have any idea about what we're learning

492
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: now from Marissa Syulick.

493
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 7: We know everything that's been reported. We've been staying abreast

494
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 7: of all the bully reporting, and I have spoken to

495
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 7: Marissa at length. The it's just it's my numbing to

496
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 7: think that it all was preventable, that she could have lived.

497
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 7: I mean, Jillian was She was all those things, all

498
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 7: the things that we mentioned. She was kind and loving,

499
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 7: and she was so smart and so funny, and.

500
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 3: She had a laugh.

501
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 7: They could just light up the world. I never heard

502
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 7: anyone say a bad word about her. She was literally

503
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 7: she was eighteen years old and she was the best

504
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 7: person I know inside outside.

505
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: Jerry, I got a question for you. Sure, have you

506
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: seen the photo of whom we believe is Shkil Taylor

507
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: and he is standing with who we think is his brother,

508
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: posing making something like gang signs with his hands, and

509
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: the brother is showing a huge role of money.

510
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 7: I have not seen that. I have seen his mugshot.

511
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 3: No, this is from straight off of Facebook.

512
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I don't think that there's any question

513
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 7: that he is someone that should not have been on

514
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 7: the street. I believe that there are people that need

515
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 7: to be held irresponsible for this. I believe that it

516
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 7: was a total failure of a system that should be

517
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 7: designed to protect the public at large. It should be

518
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 7: designed to protect innocent people. People should be able to

519
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 7: live their life in broad daylight without fear of being

520
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 7: gunned down by somebody who has no business being on

521
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 7: the street.

522
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: Andy Kahn, I would like for you to take a

523
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: look at this photo that I just sent you.

524
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm looking at this is who.

525
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: I believe to be Shaquille Taylor on the left, his

526
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: brother on the right. They look like, you know, have

527
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: you seen the pictures that gang members or perps post

528
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: of themselves, like showing all the money they just got.

529
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: You see that picture, this is the guy they said

530
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: it's incompetent.

531
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 9: I'm looking at it and I'm going, you know, look,

532
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 9: he's flashing. He's proud of himself. He wants the whole

533
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 9: world to know who he is and what he is.

534
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: It's from his Facebook. He has Facebook. Correct, the guy

535
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 3: they say.

536
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: As the mind of a five year old has a

537
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: Facebook and post pictures of himself flashing money.

538
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 9: This is what makes this so maddening. It is for question,

539
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 9: my question to everybody here into Nancy. Obviously, this is

540
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 9: an ultimate tragedy. Yet this was so utterly preventable. Will

541
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 9: Jillian's death be a catalyst for change? It has to be.

542
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 9: This cannot continue to happen. There needs to be a law,

543
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 9: and it needs to be named the Gillian Ludwig law.

544
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 10: Well Man, I think that's exactly what has to happen here. Obviously,

545
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 10: the law as it exists in Tennessee is inadequate because

546
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 10: it provides that if a doctor or doctor say that

547
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 10: someone is incompetent, they can't aid in their defense. The

548
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 10: judge has no alternative but to dismiss the case. And

549
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 10: that has to change. And you would think that Nashville.

550
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: Doesn't have to dismiss the case when someone is determined incompetent.

551
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, he can be held until he is competent.

552
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: I mean, did anybody see that Facebook picture that we

553
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: just pulled up.

554
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 4: All on our own.

555
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: It's him and he's with a guy flashing money.

556
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 4: Okay, he's not incompetent.

557
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 3: He works at a fast.

558
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: Food restaurant, he lives on his own, he has a girlfriend,

559
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,479
Speaker 2: a driver's license, he drives, He gets access to guns, and.

560
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 3: He shoots them over and over and over. That is

561
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 3: not the mind of a five.

562
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 4: Year old child.

563
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 10: But the problem is Nancy. And as you know that

564
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 10: these decisions are based on medical evidence, and that if

565
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 10: the doctor comes in and does a forensic assessment and

566
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 10: says that this person has no ability or limited ability

567
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 10: to aid in his own defense. The court has to

568
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 10: make that determination based on medical evidence.

569
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: Actually that's partially true, because I recall distinctly a murder

570
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: that was set up to look like a suicide and

571
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: the defendant was deemed incompetent stand trial and I I'm

572
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 2: not an MD, I'm not a shrink.

573
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 4: I't evan on my.

574
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 2: Own of letters, he was writing to friends, co workers

575
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: talking about how he was going to stay in the

576
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: mental facility for X number. I think he said two

577
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: years while he made sand paintings, you know those sand

578
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: paintings you put in a bottle and did artwork, and

579
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: then he would get out. I got every letter I

580
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,919
Speaker 2: could find of his to show he was not incompetent,

581
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 2: and when presented with that evidence, doctors had a very

582
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 2: different opinion, just as I think they would if they

583
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 2: had this evidence that we're talking about right now.

584
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 3: Matthew Mangino, that's BS.

585
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 10: Well, why wasn't it presented?

586
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: I don't know why it wasn't presented, and con help

587
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 2: me find answers.

588
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 10: The failure in the law is that if you deem

589
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 10: someone in competent, it should not mean that the case

590
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 10: is dismissed. And that's what Tennessee law apparently provides. There

591
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 10: should be some other method, whether it is civil commitment

592
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 10: because of a mental health issue and a risk to others.

593
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 10: These things should work hand in hand. They shouldn't be.

594
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 10: Well here, we're going to deal with incompetency all and

595
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 10: if you bring it up, we'll deal with the issue

596
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 10: of danger to society. These should work hand in hand,

597
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 10: and they don't, and that has to change on a

598
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 10: legislative level. In tendency.

599
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for preaching. These people screwed up, Andy Khan.

600
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 2: If you and I and the people here at Crime

601
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: Stories can dig up this evidence, if Marissa Sulett can

602
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: dig up this evidence, they can dig up the evidence.

603
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 2: And they let this guy walk out. And now Jillian

604
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 2: is dead.

605
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 9: And that's why I said, the State of Tennessee is equally,

606
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 9: if not more than, complicit and culpable in her death,

607
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 9: knowingly allowing a career habitual violence, a felon, right back

608
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 9: to the community to do what he does best, commit crimes.

609
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 9: And this time eighteen year old Gillian Ludwig paid the

610
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 9: ultimate price. Something's got to give back.

611
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 2: To Jerry Wainwright joining us, the great aunt of Jillian Ludwig.

612
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 3: Jerry.

613
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel that you don't know what to say,

614
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 2: not only because Jillian has passed away, not only because

615
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: their parents are grieving, but because it was all so

616
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: avoidable if the prosecutor, the doctors, the defense attorney, and

617
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: the judge had done their job. But they didn't, and

618
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: now Jillian is dead. It can only add to the

619
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 2: grief that her parents are suffering.

620
00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 10: It does it?

621
00:37:59,000 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: Does?

622
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 9: You know?

623
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 7: We even we haven't had Jillian's funeral yet, so they're

624
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 7: still trying to process. We're all still trying to process

625
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 7: and get over that hurdle. But yes, it's it is maddening,

626
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 7: it's you know, something like so so something like this,

627
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 7: violent crime like this usually doesn't hit home for most

628
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 7: of us. When it happens, it's somebody else's, like some

629
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 7: other place, some other some other story, and everybody feels

630
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 7: bad about it and more empathetic. And but when it

631
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 7: hits home and you never you could never expect or

632
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 7: plan or prepare for it, the shock and the grief

633
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 7: and the depths of their storrow are overwhelming. And and yes,

634
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 7: the fact that it is that it was preventable does it.

635
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 7: It makes us angry, very very angry. You know, they

636
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 7: sent their they sent their daughter away into the world

637
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 7: to live her best life, to be something great, and

638
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 7: she would have she would have done amazing things with

639
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 7: her life. And the fact that that other people incompetency

640
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 7: contributed to her her death is yeah, it's it's heartbreaking,

641
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 7: it's air shattering.

642
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: Andy conn what sometimes we don't have the answer? You know,

643
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: I've worked with so many victims, families and crime victims themselves,

644
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 2: and they look to us prosecutors investigators as having some

645
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: kind of an answer. I don't know the answer. I

646
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: don't have an answer right now.

647
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 9: The only answer is what we've already know is that

648
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 9: the state of Tennessee failed Jillian. Now the only question

649
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 9: is are we going to allow them to continue to

650
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 9: fail other families. It's my understanding that they resume legislatives

651
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 9: back in session in January. This needs to be priority

652
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 9: legislation on the fast track, and they need to name

653
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 9: a law after her so no other family has to

654
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 9: endure the pain, grief, and agony of losing a loved

655
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 9: one to this insane and that's what this is. Insane decision.

656
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 2: Let's just wait and see whether the Tennessee legislature, packed

657
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 2: with politicians, has the backbone to do anything about it.

658
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: But for now, our prayers the Jillian's family go on. Goodbye, friends,