1 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: If not for him, we would not have known about 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: the American mafia. The FBI didn't know how they were 3 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: set up, if there were families, the hierarchy. They had 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: no idea the crimes they were involved in. We had 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: no idea what was right under our noses, so to speak, 6 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: with the mafia. Our guest Tonight was tagged by the 7 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: FBI to go under cover for six months. They were like, hey, 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: get in there, see what you can find out, get 9 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: back out. We'll take it from there. He spent six 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: years under cover. He lived within the Colombo crime family. 11 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: He risked his life every single minute of every single 12 00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: day for six months. Y'all, it is an absolute honor 13 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: to welcome retired FBI Special Agent Joseph Pistone to Zone seven. Sir, welcome, 14 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: welcome to Zone seven. 15 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate you having me on, Cheryl, thank you 16 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 2: very much. 17 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: Let me tell you, this is a privilege. This is 18 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: something that very few people get the opportunity to do, 19 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: and I am just grateful that you are spending any 20 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: amount of time with me and our listeners. It's important. 21 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: Your work was historic. Nobody, nobody, I don't think, can 22 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: overstate the importance of what you did. You single handedly 23 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: took down the mall. 24 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: I don't know single handedly, but I had a big, 25 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: a big part in it. This was a big operation 26 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: that lasted six years, and I eventually brought in a 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 2: couple other undercovers in different cities, but I was the 28 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: main undercover, and the Columbo crime family was the first 29 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: family I infiltrated, and then I went over to the Bananos. 30 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: So I was with the Columbos for about six months, 31 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 2: and then I went over to the Bananos and stayed 32 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 2: with the Bananos for five and a half years, for 33 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: a total of six years total for the operation. 34 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: And you know, you and I spoke, and there's just 35 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: certain things that would give you away, Like we were 36 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: laughing that I couldn't have infiltrated them with my accent alone. 37 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: I mean, they would know I was not from the 38 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: Bronx or Uptown, right, So you had to be perfect 39 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: from the watch you wore, to the clothes to the 40 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: way you spoke, the slang terms that you learned to use. 41 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: I mean you had to be perfect, Joe, every minute, 42 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: every day. 43 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, unfortunately, you know, we can only make one mistake, 44 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: and you know they can make as many mistakes as 45 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 2: they want. But in the undercover business, especially when you 46 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: infiltrated in a deep cover situation, you have you're allowed 47 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 2: one mistake, and unfortunately that mistake could get you killed. 48 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 2: So you do you have to be on your game 49 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: twenty four to seven in this. 50 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: Business twenty four to seven because you're dealing with people 51 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: that they're not trusting. As a rule, they don't know 52 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: who you are. They're not just going to let you in. 53 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: It wasn't like you were able just to walk into 54 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: the mob bar and go, you know, hey boys, I 55 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: want to join. I mean, you had to really take 56 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: your time. How long did you set up just at 57 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: that bar, going in there every day every other day 58 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: so they would know your face? 59 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: Several bars or restaurants that I frequented, uh, every day 60 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: every night? Actually uh? And that's you know, in this 61 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: type of situation, which which is deep cover, it's a 62 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: seven day a week job. Uh, you know, because the 63 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: mob we see you Monday through Friday. Where the hell 64 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: are you Saturday and Sunday? How Come you're never around 65 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: Saturday or Sunday? So you have to dedicate it uh 66 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: to being a seven day or week week job. Ah. 67 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 2: And It took me about six months before I had 68 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: any conversation with anybody regarding any any activities, mob activities 69 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 2: or UH introduced to different monsters within the different families 70 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 2: in New York City. So it was a long process. 71 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 2: It was I was out there by myself. I had 72 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: my own apartment in New York City. H I moved 73 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: out of my residence. My family actually was then moved 74 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 2: across across country. So and it's a lonely existence. Once 75 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: you've infiltrated, your whole existence, your whole social life is 76 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: now with the organized crime group that you've infiltrated. 77 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people don't understand. I mean, 78 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: there's going to be some young rookies and some young 79 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: detectives listening this, going, oh okay, I get to go 80 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: to bars every night for six months and get paid 81 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: to do it. But you're away from your family and 82 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: you're already risk in your life. If they had any 83 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: inklin of who you were, you would have been dead 84 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: right then. 85 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, initially, if they suspect you of anything, 86 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: it's not that you're an undercover law enforcement it's that 87 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: you're an informant, and you know they don't have any 88 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: reservations about killing informants. They might think twice if they 89 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: think your law enforcement. But the first the thing that 90 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: comes through was that this guy's an informant, he's working 91 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: for the police. So chances are if that's how they 92 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 2: feel and how they really think, they're going to kill 93 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 2: you right there. 94 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so being an untouchable, that code of silence is real. 95 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: Did you totally understand that prior to your undercover work 96 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: or did you learn just how serious they were about 97 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: not being a rat? 98 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 2: Well, fortunately I grew up in that environment. I grew 99 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: up in an all Italian neighborhood. I went to high 100 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: school with guys who fathers were in the mob. I 101 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: knew mob guys from the neighborhood, so I was pretty 102 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 2: well versed in how the mob operated before I went 103 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 2: into law enforcement. Like I said, just growing up. So 104 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 2: that helped me an awful lot. Helped me to infiltrate, 105 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: knowing how to act, and once I did infiltrate, it 106 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: helped me again stay alive and gain information because, like 107 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 2: I say, you know, that's an environment that I was 108 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: used to as a child, growing up, going through high school. 109 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: You know a lot of people think undercover work, Oh 110 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: you know, that's so sexy. I want to do that. 111 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: But you were brilliant in one thing. You knew as 112 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: an FBI agent you couldn't infiltrate the mob and kill somebody. 113 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: So you had to figure out what am I going 114 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: to do for a living? Like, how am I going 115 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: to make them want to use me? Come to me? 116 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: Tell everybody what you did to make sure once you 117 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: were in you could hold up your end of the 118 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: bargain bringing them money. 119 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, the whole purpose of 120 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: anybody in the mob is to be an earner, to 121 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: again earn, bring money in and being an undercover agent 122 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: law enforcement, you can't get involved in violence unless it's 123 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: for your own protection or protect the citizen. So my 124 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: criminal profession was a jewel thief. Now, on the other hand, 125 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: whatever criminal profession that you say that you are, you 126 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: better know about it. So I went to I went 127 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 2: to school, learned about diamonds, learned about precious gems. I 128 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: pretty much knew about that subject. And then you have 129 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 2: to you know, if you're a jewel thief, there are 130 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 2: other things you have to know. You have to know 131 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: how to pick locks. You have to know about alarm 132 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 2: system them. You have to know about safes. So I 133 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 2: also got schooled in lock picking, alarms and safes because 134 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: what is a lot of what is the downfall of 135 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: a lot of undercover agents is they say there's something, 136 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 2: but they don't know anything about the profession that they 137 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 2: say they are. And you can't you know, you can't 138 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: bs through through a profession, and you can't say that 139 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: you know, you don't want to go into a profession 140 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: saying that you're a stick up man or you're a 141 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: leg breaker, because once you get once you infiltrate, you're 142 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 2: going to be expected to do whatever you say your 143 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: profession is. So you have to think out your profession 144 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: very carefully and you have to know all aspects of 145 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: your criminal profession. 146 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: How long did you go to school to learn about 147 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,479 Speaker 1: saves and luck picking and alarms? 148 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 2: I went to jewelry school UH for about I think 149 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: it was a three three month course or four month 150 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: course uh and UH once I felt comfortable there and 151 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: the other aspects of it I learned from you know, 152 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: from the technicians in the FBI that were proficient in 153 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 2: uh in uh lock picking and alarm systems and that's 154 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 2: so good. 155 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: Though, because again, if you're bringing them a bag of 156 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: diamonds that are lose, you've got to know the value. 157 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: You got to know a good one from a bad one, 158 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 1: a clear one, the. 159 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: Cut well, and the main thing is that you know, 160 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: you can't be telling them tiffany prices if it's supposed 161 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: to be stolen. You know, what's what's the swag price? 162 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 2: What's the street price? Right? 163 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: So? 164 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: Uh? And you and you have to know the quality 165 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 2: and uh and the clarity you know. 166 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: So and the swag price is important because honey, you've 167 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: got to cut it up. 168 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, because uh, you want to if you 169 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 2: if you give it to a fence, you know he's 170 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: going to make money. So you have to say the 171 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 2: price you want where you know that everybody is going 172 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: to get as they say what their beaks, you know, 173 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 2: have a piece of bread and eat. So ah, there's 174 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: a lot to go into undercover and undercover. And you're right. 175 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 2: A lot of young a lot of young officers, they 176 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: think it's what they see on television, you know, and 177 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: it's not. It's it's not as easy as it looks 178 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 2: on television. And another thing too. 179 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: Is. 180 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 2: You got to make sure that you don't. You know, 181 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: you stay within your moral compass when you go undercover. 182 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: You know, I do a lot of lecturing and teaching 183 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 2: at at undercover schools around the country and overseas. I 184 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: do a lot overseas, and I explained to these young 185 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 2: officers that you know, this is not this is not TV, 186 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: this is real. You know, you're dealing with your life 187 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 2: and you have to do what you believe in. For instance, 188 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: I'm not a drinker. I never was a drinker. Well, 189 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: I didn't drink that much when I was undercover. I mean, 190 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 2: you know my capacity even to this day, even growing up, 191 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: I can't finish a whole ball of beer. And when 192 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: I worked undercover, I did the same thing. I drink 193 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: maybe one glass of wine with dinner and a lot 194 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: of undercovers. Again, they think that all bad guys drinkers, 195 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: All bad guys, you know, curse and swear, and you know, 196 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: you have to be yourself. Basically, you have to be 197 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: yourself because everybody has a personality and everybody has a 198 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: moral compass, and you have to stay within your personality 199 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: and your moral compass. 200 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: When you were Donnie Brasco and knowing that within the mob, 201 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: you could not refuse a job from a boss. How 202 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: did you maneuver to make sure you didn't get yourself 203 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: in a situation where you had to go break somebody's leg? 204 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 2: Well, because I was not a leg breaker. I mean 205 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 2: near the end of my career. When I say my career, 206 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: near the end of the operation, I was giving contracts 207 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: to kill somebody. Now obviously you know I wasn't just 208 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: going out flat kill somebody. I was fortunate enough that 209 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: the person that I give I was given a contract 210 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: on was on the land. That means he was running, uh, 211 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 2: And I couldn't find them, and the FBI couldn't find them. 212 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 2: So but you know, again, it all depends on the situation. 213 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: It depends on on your own life. That's a hard 214 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: answer question to answer only because it depends on the situation. Now, 215 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: I'll be honest with you. If it's between my life 216 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: and a gangster's life, yeah, it ain't going to be 217 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 2: my life. It's going to be the gangsters. It's going 218 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: to be the gangster's life. But on the other hand, 219 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: if it's me or a citizen, then I protect a 220 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: citizen uh and put my life on the line. But 221 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: I'm not putting my life on a life or a gangster. 222 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: So because the people that you're dealing with, I mean, 223 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: the people that I dealt with, you know, they you know, 224 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 2: they had killed five, ten, fifteen people themselves, so they 225 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: only going to have any problem killing me if they 226 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 2: had to. 227 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: That's right. Absolutely. Let's talk about August fourteenth, nineteen eighty one, 228 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: when Sonny Black walks into the motion lounge bar. 229 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: What happened. To give a little backstory for those that 230 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: don't know, Sonny Block was a top ranking captain in 231 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: the Banano crime family and he was actually my captain 232 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: in the family. That means that I reported to Sonny 233 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: Block and had had when it had come out that 234 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: I was an FBI agent working undercover. At first, the 235 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: mafia didn't believe it. They thought the FBI had kidnapped 236 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 2: me and was trying to brainwash me and turn me 237 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: into an and inform it. And then finally when their 238 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 2: lawyers got you know, they for David's and everything, then 239 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: they realize, hey, this guy's really an FBI agent. And 240 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: so Sonny Black gets called to a meeting because he 241 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 2: was responsible for me. He had introduced me to a 242 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 2: lot of a lot of other mob guys, and he 243 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: gets called to a meeting. And before he goes to 244 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: the meeting, Now I want to emphasize there are gangsters, 245 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: and there are real gangsters, and Sonny Block was a 246 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: real gangster. Before he goes, he walks into the Motion Lounge, 247 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: which was our bar, his bar, it was our social club. 248 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: And he gives a bartenders money. He gives the bartenders 249 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 2: our key, his keys, except his car keys. He gives 250 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: him his diamond ring and tells him I just got 251 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: called to a sit down and I'm probably not coming back. 252 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 2: And then and then he calls his girlfriend and tells 253 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: her the same thing. Uh, And he did. He went 254 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 2: to the he went to the meeting, and once he 255 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: walked in that that door, they shot him. They killed them. Yeah, 256 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, talk about a gangster. Yeah, he said, 257 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: I'm going to a sit down. I probably not coming back. 258 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: I mean, he knew what he was walking into and 259 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: did it anyway. 260 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: He didn't run, no, no, no, no, went right went 261 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: right to the address where he had to go and 262 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: walked in. And you know who kills your people that 263 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 2: you know? Yeah? 264 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 1: Your friends? 265 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, guys that he had known for years, guys that 266 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: were mobsters with him, and you know, yeah, so to me, 267 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 2: that's a real gangster. 268 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. So, Tony Mirra, he introduced you to the 269 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: Banano Crown family. How did you know, Tony? 270 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:22,239 Speaker 2: I met Tony at a card game at a it 271 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: was really more in a card game. It was a 272 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 2: gambling den that was run by the mafia, and I 273 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: had met Tony Tony there And when I left the Columbos, 274 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 2: I hooked up with Tony Mirra and he introduced me 275 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: actually into the Banano family and they end up killing 276 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: him too. His own nephew shot him. His own nephew 277 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 2: shot him and for his you know, for bringing me 278 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 2: into the family. Yeah. 279 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: Well, when you left the Colombo family, why did you 280 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: leave them? And did you make it known, you know, 281 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: the you were a free agent? 282 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 2: Well, I left the Columbos because I got into a 283 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: I got into a beef physical confrontation with two of 284 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 2: the guys that were into in the crew, the Columbo 285 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: crew I was in. I got into a physical confrontation 286 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 2: with two guys and once I had that physical confrontation, 287 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 2: I knew that I couldn't hang around these guys anymore 288 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 2: because they didn't like me, and I didn't like them, 289 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 2: So it was going to come to somebody who was 290 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 2: going to get killed. So I went to Mike Capo. 291 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: The capo that was at the head of that was 292 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: a gentleman by name of Jilly. So I just went 293 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 2: to Jilly and told them that, you know, I don't 294 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 2: think I could hang around with you guys anymore, you know, 295 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 2: because of this confrontation that I had with these two guys. 296 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 2: So he understood, you know, they know what's going on, 297 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 2: they know the way the street. So that's when I 298 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 2: when I I helked up with Tony Mirror. Uh, when 299 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: I went back to the to the. 300 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: Card games, that physical confrontation probably made you look more legit. 301 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean, you know, look, there's certain things 302 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 2: you can shake hands on, and there's certain things you can't. 303 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: There's certain things that the only thing they understand is 304 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 2: a physical confrontation, and this was this was one where 305 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 2: I couldn't shake hands with him. Uh, So I initiated 306 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: a physical comfrontation and was fighting two guys actually until 307 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: they until they broke it up. 308 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: Okay, now let me ask you this. Prior to going undercover, 309 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: did you have an idea who you kind of wanted 310 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: to work with, if there was one group in particular, 311 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: or did you just wait till whoever came to you 312 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: and work from there. 313 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, basically like that. I mean I had done other 314 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: undercovered jobs before that, before the sixth year one, and 315 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 2: I had just come off a year undercover where I 316 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 2: had infiltrated a bunch of car thi's that were still 317 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: in high end automobiles up and down the East Coast. 318 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 2: So it was whoever the criminal individuals were. It didn't 319 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: make any difference to me if I could get in 320 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 2: into the organization I did. I didn't you know, I 321 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 2: didn't pick and choose nationalities or ethnic groups. It were 322 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 2: just criminal groups. 323 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: So and then at one point you learned there were 324 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: five families. 325 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 2: Well, basically we knew when I say, well, you know, 326 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 2: the FBI knew that you know about the five families. 327 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: What we didn't have is a lot of intelligence and 328 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 2: how they they interacted with each other. And we didn't 329 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: know a lot of the names of individuals that were 330 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: into different families. And I also was able to put 331 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 2: together again, uh, names to faces and who was an 332 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: actual member who was actually inducted into a family versus 333 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: who was an associate, somebody that was with the family 334 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 2: but not actually inducted into that family. So I was 335 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: able to together a lot of intelligence information besides criminal 336 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 2: uh criminal information uh, which which helped down the road 337 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 2: in all the all the cases against against the families. Yeah. 338 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: Yes, because of you, we knew there was a whole 339 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, organization when the five families got together. We 340 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: didn't know anything about a commission that came from you. 341 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 2: How the commission operated and how they how they it 342 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 2: up the country with the different families again, how they 343 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 2: interacted with each other in criminal activities, and how different 344 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 2: where they were allowed to you know, conduct their criminal activities, 345 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 2: which was very helpful in putting together other cases. 346 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: Right, because it wasn't just New York. I mean you 347 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: were learning things about Chicago and other places. You yourself 348 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: went to Florida. 349 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually was able to form a marriage between 350 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 2: the Banano family and the family in Milwaukee. I was 351 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: able to form a marriage between the Banano family and 352 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 2: Santa traffic Anti, the boss of of of Florida, which 353 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 2: was you know, which was a big deal actually, I 354 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: mean I was being able to marry up too families 355 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 2: to conduct illegal activities. 356 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, now, sir, I'm will tell you you did more 357 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,479 Speaker 1: than just marrying two families. You were so successful in 358 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: Florida that the Florida FBI had y'all under surveillance and 359 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: had no idea you were an agent. 360 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 2: No, that was in New York too. That also was 361 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: in New York. You know, because there are different squads 362 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: that are working working different families and stuff. So, uh, 363 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 2: the other the other squads in New York, you know, 364 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 2: they're they had surveillance and you know, there's so many 365 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 2: agents that you don't know everybody, so they they had 366 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 2: all of any photographs that you see and me were 367 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: taken by surveillance teams that had no idea who I was. 368 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 2: They thought I was just just another gangster. 369 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: But again that tells you and for the young officers 370 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: into tectives listening the way you carried yourself. You didn't 371 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: run around shooting your mouth off. You weren't telling women secrets, 372 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: you weren't violating the code. I mean, you lived this 373 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: lifestyle exactly. 374 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 2: And what young officers have to remember you have to 375 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 2: be yourself. You know, you have to be yourself like 376 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: I say, you know, I was never a drinker, so 377 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 2: I never tried to keep up drinking with anybody. And 378 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 2: it's you know, sometimes you get the question is, you know, Donnie, 379 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: how come you you know, how come you're not drinking? 380 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 2: And I just tell them because I can, I can't 381 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 2: drink a whole beer. Nobody cares. I mean, you think 382 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: anybody cares that that you're not a drinker. It's but 383 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 2: like I say, young undercovers think that they have to 384 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 2: act like every gangster that there is. You don't. I've 385 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: never done a drug in my life, never ever, and 386 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: I wasn't about to do one when I worked under 387 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: cover either. And you know that's what not when I do, 388 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 2: I don't do that stuff. 389 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: And you didn't brag, you didn't shoot your mouth off, 390 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: you didn't go home every weekend and tell all your 391 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: friends and family about it, exactly. I mean, we've got 392 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: some young folks. You know, you've seen it. They've got 393 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: a video camera in their pocket and they will take 394 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: crime scene video pictures. They do TikTok and uniform. I mean, 395 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: come on, you have. 396 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: To know why you're there and why you're there. You're 397 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 2: a law enforcement officer. You're conducting an investigation, and it 398 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: just so happens that the investigation is undercover. I mean, 399 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: if you if you're out investigating a bank fraud, are 400 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 2: you going to you know, to put it all over 401 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 2: that you're investigating a bank fraud and you know the 402 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 2: banker is Joe blow Is whom you know who I'm investigating, 403 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 2: and so why would you do it undercover? You know? 404 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 2: I mean it's it's it's like I said, I teach 405 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 2: a lot undercover schools and I'm amazed that, you know, 406 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: especially today. Uh, I asked some of the uh are 407 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: you on Facebook? Yeah? Why are you on Facebook? Are 408 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: you're working undercover? Well that's not my real name. No, 409 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: it's not your real name, but you're on Facebook. You 410 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 2: got your family on Facebook, you got your family on 411 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: TikTok or Instagram. But you know, they think because it's 412 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: a different name. I said, are you kidding or what? 413 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: But like you said, it's your face man. And I'll 414 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: tell you we had a kid got straight out of 415 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: the academy. I mean he may be graduated three days. 416 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: The next day. He has a full sleeve tattoo of 417 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: like the law enforcement flag. You know, nine one one's 418 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: my phone number. You know his badge number. And you know, 419 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: the first thing I said is, well, I guess you're 420 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: undercover careers over. You ain't even been on the street 421 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: five minutes and you're letting everybody know who and what 422 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: you are exactly. 423 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 2: So like I say, you know, I I got to 424 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: shake my head at some of the some of them, 425 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 2: you know, with all the social media and it doesn't 426 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 2: take long now to find out who anybody is, you know, And. 427 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: What's so silly, that's what we use to find perpetrators. 428 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: You don't think they're doing the opposite exactly. Well, as 429 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: you're living in this world, you are learning quickly, Like 430 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: you already have said, the people closest to you were 431 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: going to be the ones that kill you. And Michael 432 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: fran says his own father didn't he put a hit 433 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: out on him. 434 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:10,959 Speaker 2: Well, he didn't put a hit out on him, but 435 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: when he went to a sit down, he didn't stick 436 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: up for him and his father. I know, I know, Michael, 437 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: I know of his father. His father was a little 438 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: before my time. I mean, his father was around when 439 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: I was around, but I didn't have any any in 440 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 2: their actions. But his father was a you talk about 441 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 2: another real gangster. His father was a real gangster, you know, Uh, Sonny, Yeah. 442 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you're gonna sit there and not protect 443 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: your son. 444 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean but stone cold, stone cold, stone cold, 445 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 2: you know. And you know, Michael, let me said, you know, 446 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 2: he didn't do me. Any One of the guys in 447 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 2: there tells me, Michael, your father didn't do you any favors. 448 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: You know his sit down. 449 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you about stone Cold. I have 450 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: a question. So when Carmon Galante was killed, he's killed 451 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: at dinner because he won't share his heroine and he's 452 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: out in public. They lay him right out in the 453 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: little courtyard there. Did Joe Coffee put the cigar in 454 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: his mouth? 455 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 2: No, he had He always had that cigar in his mouth. 456 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: Okay, So he died with it in his mouth. Yeah, yeah, 457 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: justice gangster, Okay, Yeah, I just I never knew. So 458 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: Lefty was under Sunny Black. 459 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. In the beginning. Uh, when I first infiltrated the bananas. Uh. Uh, 460 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 2: Carmon GALENTI was was the boss. Uh and left and 461 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: uh then I was with Lefty and we were under 462 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 2: an individual by name of Mike Shabella. He was a 463 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: captain under Galente. They killed Galente, and they appointed a 464 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: Rusty Rostelli the boss who was in jail, and they 465 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: took me and Lefty away from Mike Sabella and put 466 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 2: us under Sonny Black. They had told Mike's you know, 467 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 2: they told Mike Sabella, uh, you either stepped down as 468 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: a captain or we're going to kill you two. So 469 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 2: he just went back to being a regular soldier. But 470 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 2: Lefty night and reported to Sonny Black Alan Brooklyn where 471 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 2: Mike Sabella was down in the little with me. 472 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: Now, if you don't mind telling one story for me, 473 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: and this will again tell you young officers and you young 474 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: detectives that may want to work undercover. When I say 475 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: it was twenty four to seven for Donnie Brasco, will 476 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: you please tell the story about underwear coffee cartoons in 477 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: Sunny Black, because Joe, I'm gonna tell you something. There's 478 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: undercover and there is undercover. 479 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: Well, I had a Sunny Black was in Brooklyn, and 480 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 2: he had an apartment upstairs from the Motion Lounge that 481 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: was his club, and I had my apartment was uptown, uh, 482 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 2: New York City. So some you know, sometimes if we 483 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: got in late, I didn't feel like going uptown. So 484 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 2: I would stay with Sunny Black and sleep on his couch. Now, 485 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 2: you have to remember, I'm talking about a guy that 486 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 2: was one of the most powerful capitals in New York City. 487 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: He was one of the guys that was running the 488 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: Banano family when Rushy was study was in jail. So 489 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 2: h he would we would get up in the morning 490 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: and across the street was a you know, a coffee shop. 491 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 2: He'd go down and get us coffee. And those of 492 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: you who are not in New York is a big 493 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 2: thing in the morning is a uh, a hard roll 494 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 2: with butter or a bagel with butter. So he would 495 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: go down and get us coffee and uh and two 496 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: hard rolls with butter, and uh, we'd come back. He'd 497 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: come back to his apartment and uh, we'd sit there 498 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 2: in our underwear watching cartoons and and he in a 499 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: hard roll with butter and drinking coffee. You know. And 500 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 2: I told that to my guys in the FBI, and 501 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 2: they were like, you got to be kidding me. That's 502 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 2: what we did. 503 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: You know, they don't teach that at the academy, no, 504 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: But you. 505 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: Know, I don't know how to put this, but that's that. 506 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 2: That's me being comfortable in what I was doing, and 507 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 2: and the trust that he had in me, you know 508 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 2: what I mean? And and uh, and like I said, 509 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: but it goes back to you have to be yourself. 510 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 2: I never got loud. Ah, I never tried to act tough. 511 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 2: But if somebody braced me, they knew that, you know, 512 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 2: they knew that they were going to get it back, 513 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: you know. 514 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: Uh. 515 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 2: And that's how you build up to your respect. You 516 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: don't build up your respect by being a loudmouth. You 517 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 2: build up your respect by by your actions. And that's 518 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 2: that's how these guys respected me, by my actions. Uh 519 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: so uh, you know. And and again you know I 520 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 2: can't express it enough. Is that you have to be 521 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: who you are. You know, you can't have another personality 522 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 2: because it's not going to work. 523 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: It's not going to work. And you know, this is 524 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: where it starts to become historic. At this point, Sonny 525 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,959 Speaker 1: Black proposes Donnie Brasco to be a made man. Joe, 526 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: you are fixing to be at a level of undercover 527 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: that has never in history happened or been repeated. 528 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 2: That's correct. And I had you know once they propose you, 529 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 2: what your name goes out to all the different capitals 530 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 2: in the family and they either give you, you know, 531 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 2: a thumbs up or thumbs down. Well, I had already 532 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 2: got the thumbs up. So I was going to actually 533 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 2: be inducted in December. I was going to be inducted 534 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 2: in the Banana family in December, and we'd close the 535 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: operation July at twenty seven, July twenty seven because of 536 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 2: the the unrest in the family and the killings. Decide 537 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 2: I was with killed three members of the opposition that 538 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,439 Speaker 2: we're trying to take over the family, and like I said, 539 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 2: I had a contract to kill one guy that didn't 540 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 2: show up. So we basically the FBI basically termined in 541 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 2: the operation because of the killings now within. 542 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: The family, after all of that time and all of 543 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: that work, for that operation to be pulled at that 544 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: moment where you just disgusted disheartened, well. 545 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 2: I was kind of I was kind of disheartened, you know, 546 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 2: because you know my argument was, look, we you know, 547 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 2: we've been doing this now six years. I achieved infiltray 548 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 2: in a family. Now I'm going to be inducted into 549 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 2: a family. Can you imagine that the embarrassment and the 550 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 2: hurt of that family. 551 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: They would never recover. 552 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 2: No. Once I got inducted, yep, but they were too 553 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 2: worried about the you know, the war going on, and 554 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 2: so they wouldn't wait till Decembers for me to get inducted. 555 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: Did you know John Gotti? 556 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 2: No, I never had any dealings with John. I mean 557 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 2: I knew who he was and everything, but I never 558 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 2: had any dealings with him. Though. 559 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: What was the result of your six months worth of work? 560 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: How many arrests? How many trials? How many convictions we. 561 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 2: Had two hundred and I think it was two forty 562 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: seven forty five to forty seven convictions and seventh seventeen trials. 563 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: Do you know how many people died? 564 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 2: Well? They killed Jilly, they killed Sonny, they killed Tony Mirra, 565 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 2: and like I said, they were going to kill Lefty, 566 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 2: but he the FBI arrested him because they found out 567 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,720 Speaker 2: that he was on his way to get killed. 568 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: I know, good and will that Lefty couldn't believe it. 569 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: I know the rest of them couldn't believe it either. 570 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 1: But I know Lefty felt like y'all were true friends. 571 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: I mean he saw. 572 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 2: You, yeah, he saw me as a I don't know, 573 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 2: I think kind of as the age difference. He saw 574 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 2: me kind of as a son, you know, but he 575 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 2: was out to kill me. I can tell you that. 576 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: Oh, I have no doubt about that. Tell us how 577 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: you came up with the name Donnie Brasco, because that's 578 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: something I don't know. I've never heard that story. 579 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 2: Well, actually he was a cousin of mine who I 580 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 2: grew up with, and uh, well he was a couple 581 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 2: of years older than me, and uh, he was just 582 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 2: he was like, you know, growing up, he was kind 583 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 2: of like my my protector, you know. Uh, and we 584 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 2: were you know, we were as close as brothers versus cousins. 585 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:22,439 Speaker 2: Uh and uh uh he was he was a real 586 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 2: tough guy growing up. And then and then uh he 587 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:35,720 Speaker 2: became actually became a minister uh later in life. Uh 588 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 2: and you know, uh so when I needed a name, 589 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 2: I actually went to him, and you know, and I said, cousin, 590 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 2: I said, you know, I'm kicking around some undercover names, 591 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,919 Speaker 2: and what would you mind if I used your name? 592 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 2: And he gave me the blessing? So I used it. 593 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 2: I mean I would not have used it if he didn't, 594 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 2: you know, if he didn't give me the blessing. Uh. 595 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 2: So that's it. 596 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: But it's a great name. And he wasn't in the crosshairs. 597 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: I mean, he was off somewhere else doing a whole 598 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: other game. He was. 599 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he you know, he was, like I said, 600 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 2: he was a minister. He had a big church. Uh so. 601 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: Uh. 602 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 2: But that's that's how the name came about. Yeah. 603 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: Well, you know when everything shook out, I mean people 604 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,720 Speaker 1: they knocked on the door, I mean the FBI knocked 605 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: on the door to some of these folks like Sonny 606 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: Black and told him what was what. They didn't believe it. 607 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: They weren't gonna believe it until they were shown evidence, 608 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 1: like you wearing a badge. 609 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. What we did was he took a picture with 610 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 2: several undercovered not undercover age, with several agents, and actually 611 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 2: Sonny Black knew one of the agents. Uh So I 612 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 2: took a picture with Doug. Uh and I had my 613 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 2: badge out and Doug, Well, Sonny Black knew Doug. And 614 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 2: they went showed Sonny the picture and he said, well, 615 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 2: if I ever see him, you know, I'll know, you know, 616 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 2: I'll know who he is. And that was a yeah. 617 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 2: They found in a body bag. Uh. And the symbol 618 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 2: was because he had introduced me and to other mob guys, 619 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 2: other families that I shook hands with. 620 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, And then they put a contract out on you. 621 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 2: Yeah that Yeah, the Commission put a five hundred thousand 622 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 2: dollars contract out on me. And the reason that they 623 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 2: did was because they, in their minds, I had crossed 624 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 2: the line and that you know my background that I 625 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 2: was an orphan. Uh so so uh, I would spend 626 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 2: like Christmases and and all holidays with different guys in 627 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 2: their families. So they figured I had crossed the line 628 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:07,760 Speaker 2: by you know, me and their wives and their kids. 629 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 2: So that's why they put the contract out on me. 630 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: Is it true? After the six years in two hundred 631 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: and forty seven convictions and seventeen trials and being away 632 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: from your own children and your own wife and your 633 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: own normal life, you got five hundred dollars in a medal. 634 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, But you know you don't do it for 635 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 2: the money. So what are you going to? 636 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: You know? Well, you know, Scott Payne and I were 637 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: talking about you, and he is just lovely talking about you. 638 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: His admiration, Oh my gosh, just tremendous. Well. I made 639 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 1: him laugh and told him about the last time I 640 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: worked undercover, he had just told the story about being 641 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 1: in the basement where they made him strip neck and 642 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: put a gun to his head. And here you're living 643 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: six months twenty four to seven with the mob. So 644 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: I'll tell you the same story. Last time I worked 645 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: under cover, it was to get rid of counterfeit shirts 646 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: at concerts, and it was The Grateful Dead the last 647 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: time they came through Atlanta. So, you know, me and you, Joe, 648 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: basically the same thing, you know, I mean, that's for me. 649 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: So Scott was dying laughing. He was like, well, you know, 650 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: we don't want counterfeit shirts either. You know, that's right, 651 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,919 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know, counterfeit shirts, the mob, 652 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: it's all crime. You know, we want to tackle it 653 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: the best we can. But you know what you did 654 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: for this country and what you did taking some really 655 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,720 Speaker 1: violent people off the street. I mean, it just can't 656 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: be overstated the heroic and historic crime fighting that you did. 657 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: And you did do it alone. Yes, you had a team, 658 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 1: you had people in the background, you know, sometimes you 659 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: maybe had people to you, But you were sitting in 660 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 1: that apartment in your underwear by yourself, watching cartoons. Honey. 661 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was and I very I don't. I didn't 662 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 2: have twenty four to seven surveillance. 663 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,720 Speaker 1: Please, no, you did not. And we didn't have drones, 664 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,560 Speaker 1: and we didn't have cell phones, and we didn't have 665 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: a lot of things they could use nowadays. There were 666 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: no trackers. You were out there in the wind. 667 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 2: All I had was a payphone to one person in 668 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 2: the FBI with Tony Mirrah. I told you he was 669 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,279 Speaker 2: the first banana to introduce me. And then he went 670 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 2: to jail, and then he got back out of jail, 671 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 2: and he was jealous because now I was with I 672 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 2: was tight with Lefty and Sunny Black. So he put 673 00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 2: three beefs in against me. He went to his his 674 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 2: capo and said that I had stole two hundred and 675 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars from the family that he knew of, 676 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,279 Speaker 2: and that that's a no no steal the money from 677 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 2: a family. So, you know, being that he was a 678 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,439 Speaker 2: mad guy, they called a sit down and I had 679 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 2: Sonny Block represent me at the sit down. Now what 680 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,720 Speaker 2: you have to know is is that these sit downs 681 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 2: in that type situation is Sonny loses to sit down, 682 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 2: I'm dead. So Sonny wins the first sit down and 683 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 2: then A little while later, Mirror brings another beef against me, 684 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 2: so they call another sit down, and again Sonny Block 685 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 2: wins that sit down. So he wins three sit downs 686 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,560 Speaker 2: against Tony. You know that on the beach that Tony 687 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 2: Mirror brought against me. But if again, if he didn't 688 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,439 Speaker 2: win those sit downs would have been that they would 689 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 2: have killed me because they were that grievous, the the 690 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 2: charges that he brought against me. 691 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this sounds more and more like this was 692 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: your life more than undercover. I mean, that's how it 693 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 1: plays out. 694 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, once once you infiltrate these organized 695 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 2: crime groups that are that are violent, and like I 696 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 2: said prior, you know that that becomes your whole existence, 697 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 2: that's your social life. That's because you don't you know 698 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 2: in deep cover. Look you know, look, you know it. 699 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 2: There's undercover and then there's deep undercover, deep undercover. You 700 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 2: walk out of that office, you leave your gun, your badge, 701 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 2: everything that identifies you as who you really are in 702 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:52,720 Speaker 2: that office, and now you're just you know, Donnie Brasco. 703 00:46:53,800 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 2: I'm I don't see my family. My family lives across country. 704 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:04,359 Speaker 2: My only lifeline to them is a telephone. I would 705 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 2: get home maybe every seven months overnight. Ah. So it's 706 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:17,800 Speaker 2: it's a rough existence. Uh and uh again it takes 707 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,239 Speaker 2: a special well you know, look you did. It takes 708 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:26,760 Speaker 2: a special person to work long term deep cover. Uh. 709 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 2: You got to have a different outlook on on what 710 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,320 Speaker 2: you're doing. You gotta, you know, Uh, you got to 711 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 2: have a mental toughness that a lot of people don't have. Uh. 712 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 2: So Uh, it's it's it's you know, I don't recommend it. 713 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 2: I don't recommend it for anybody, to be honest with you. 714 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,239 Speaker 1: You know, Well, it's hard on your wife, it's hard 715 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 1: on your children. Well, I mean I've had a chance 716 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: to talk to your granddaughter. They are so supportive still. 717 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: I mean, there doesn't seem to be any bitterness. But 718 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm just telling you once every seven months, that's hard 719 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:06,879 Speaker 1: on everybody. 720 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 2: Of course it is, of course it is. Yeah. And yet, look, 721 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 2: you have to have a strong spouse, you know, whether 722 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:17,360 Speaker 2: whether it be the husband or the wife, they have 723 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 2: to be support of what you're doing. They have to. 724 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,400 Speaker 2: You know, there are certain reasons why you don't go 725 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 2: under cover, Cheryl. You know, and you know you don't 726 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 2: go under cover because you have a bad relationship at 727 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 2: home because a lot of a lot of people do. 728 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but it does nothing but make it worse. 729 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 2: You don't go under cover because you can't get along 730 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 2: with with the people that you're working with and you 731 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 2: know in your in your police department or your FBHI office. Ah, 732 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 2: you don't go on to cover for those reasons. You 733 00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:58,360 Speaker 2: go under cover because you believe, and that's you know, 734 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 2: you believe, and that's the only way you're going to 735 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 2: be able to crack the case. And you and you know, 736 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 2: and you have a vehicle to uh to infiltrate the 737 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,239 Speaker 2: group that that you're investigating. 738 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: Uh. 739 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:13,960 Speaker 2: You don't go under cover because you know you have 740 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:19,799 Speaker 2: money problems. You don't go under cover because you're either 741 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,080 Speaker 2: an alcoholic or on the fringe. I mean, there are 742 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,160 Speaker 2: so many reasons why people do go under cover, and 743 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:31,279 Speaker 2: there are all the wrong reasons. So uh, and I know, 744 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,319 Speaker 2: you know, once once I got out of it and 745 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:39,440 Speaker 2: I was into the uh talking to undercover agents and uh, 746 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:47,200 Speaker 2: well you know, if I didn't think that, Look all 747 00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 2: my all my former undercover partners are divorced and it's 748 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,759 Speaker 2: it's because of it's because of undercover. That's why they 749 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 2: were divorced. You know, it's not because of you know. Uh, 750 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,160 Speaker 2: it's hard on the family, you know. And that's why 751 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,400 Speaker 2: I even though I teach these courses, I don't recommend it. 752 00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:14,799 Speaker 2: But you know, at least you know, if they want 753 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 2: to give it a shot. Uh, you know, I got 754 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 2: to impart whatever knowledge I have, you know. So there's 755 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,960 Speaker 2: a lot of factors why you why you do go, 756 00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,239 Speaker 2: there's and there's a lot of factors why you shouldn't go. 757 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,800 Speaker 2: And I blame a lot of administration, a lot of 758 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,399 Speaker 2: administration if a case gets screwed up because they put 759 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 2: the wrong person there or they don't pull the person 760 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:41,239 Speaker 2: when they should. 761 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 1: Amen. Last question, what do you think of the movie? 762 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:47,759 Speaker 2: I loved it. 763 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, right on, I'm gonna tell you it changed my 764 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:51,440 Speaker 1: whole life. 765 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,240 Speaker 2: I'll tell you you know why. You know why because 766 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,880 Speaker 2: I don't know if you know anything about Hollywood. But 767 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,800 Speaker 2: once you sign your name, you're lucky if they spell 768 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:08,680 Speaker 2: your name right after that. I mean I was lucky 769 00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:13,440 Speaker 2: in that I got I signed with the Good Good. Uh. 770 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,840 Speaker 2: It was a director that had his own production company. 771 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,600 Speaker 2: It was a Barry Levinson straight. I mean he's at 772 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 2: the time, he's one of the best directors going. He's 773 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 2: still working actually, uh. And then he you know, and 774 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,840 Speaker 2: then we went to Columbia. But he hired a great writer, 775 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:36,480 Speaker 2: Paul Antonazio, who kept it honest. Now there are some 776 00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 2: you know, it's a movie. You know, they tell me 777 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 2: Donnie when Donnie Joe, we got to put asses in 778 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,640 Speaker 2: the seats. Now for for you and for your audience. 779 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,000 Speaker 2: There's a scene in there where I slapt my wife. 780 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:52,879 Speaker 2: That never happened. I never I never slept my way. 781 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 2: That wasn't an original script that was put in later, 782 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 2: which I didn't know. Also, when they killed those three guys, 783 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,920 Speaker 2: they had me sawing that guy's leg off with a 784 00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 2: hack saw. I never saw anybody's leg off with a 785 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:13,920 Speaker 2: hack saw. Okay, we did have a lion. We did 786 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:18,960 Speaker 2: have a real lion. Uh. That's one of the questions 787 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 2: most people saying, did you have a lion? Yeah, we 788 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,680 Speaker 2: really did have a lion in the club, and then 789 00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,880 Speaker 2: we put it. Then we put them in the h 790 00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:28,880 Speaker 2: in a warehouse. 791 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,200 Speaker 1: And what in the line used to shake people to 792 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:34,759 Speaker 1: make sure they paid on time. 793 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,719 Speaker 2: No, No, we just we just had it for amusement, 794 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:43,880 Speaker 2: that's all. Yes, for our own amusement, and me and 795 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:48,279 Speaker 2: my wife never saw a psychiatrist. So but the rest 796 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,880 Speaker 2: of the movie was the rest of the movement. To 797 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,280 Speaker 2: get that movie was eighty five percent on the money 798 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 2: and to get eighty five percent out of a true 799 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,880 Speaker 2: story even though it was a true story. If you 800 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,799 Speaker 2: know Hollywood, you know, like I said, you're lucky if 801 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:08,720 Speaker 2: they if they say or pronounce your name right once 802 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,360 Speaker 2: they sign you. 803 00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 1: Well, sir, I cannot tell you what this conversation has 804 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,880 Speaker 1: meant to me. I cannot tell you just how that movie, 805 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,279 Speaker 1: I mean it did. It changed my life. I mean, 806 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,040 Speaker 1: I knew what I wanted to try to do and 807 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,919 Speaker 1: emulate in my career. So I just appreciate you so much. 808 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,439 Speaker 1: I know we owe you more than five hundred dollars 809 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,000 Speaker 1: in a medal, So I just want to say that, 810 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,960 Speaker 1: but I do. I just appreciate you, and it's an honor. 811 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,400 Speaker 2: Well my pleasure sharel it really is, it really is. 812 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 2: And you take care, stay shafe. 813 00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,279 Speaker 1: Thank you all right, y'all. I'm on end zone seven 814 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,600 Speaker 1: the way that I always do with a quote. I 815 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:59,560 Speaker 1: am not in the Federal Witness Protection Program. Joepah Stone 816 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:06,120 Speaker 1: a k A. Donny Brasco. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this 817 00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:06,960 Speaker 1: is Zone seven 818 00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:10,279 Speaker 2: H