WEBVTT - Part Two: How The Liberal Media Helped Fascism Win 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:03.320 Also media. 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.280 Hashtag never again when we do this. 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.600 Podcast hashtag never again. We're never going to do this podcast. 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:13.480 That's where we're going with. 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.640 We're done, We're done forever. Anyway, Welcome back to the Bastards, 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:23.520 a podcast where I just carried out a cunning power 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.440 play against my producer, Sophie Lifterman. She was not ready 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.560 for it at all. It came down upon her like 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:36.680 like the tanks of Operation Barbarossa on Michael Robert. 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:38.840 How does it feel? How does it feel? 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:43.680 Dad? It feels? You know, this is this is my 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:48.240 ensurgiment of Kiev, you know, perfect beautiful Michael, I feel 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:48.840 like a god. 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:49.760 Wow. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:51.560 Great, unstopped. That's the goal. 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:53.880 I really, I really want to cut off the feed. 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.920 Yeah, you probably should. I am now comparing myself to 0:00:57.960 --> 0:00:58.560 the fair Mack. 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:00.960 So that's not going to Daniel Malcolm. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:02.319 Could you just shut him off? 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.360 Just replace me with an AI version asking Michael, Michael, 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.720 how are you doing today? I hear you've got a novel. 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:13.800 Oh boy, Oh we're doing the plug right at the top. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:15.160 That's great. 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:22.199 We're in the p zone. Michael. 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.000 Okay, I've had long had a fantasy of founding the 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.880 Sokel low kel kel zone zone. But that's neither here 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:36.400 nor there. Robert, thank you for the opportunity to push 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:38.520 my novel. I really really mean it. From the bottom 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.240 of my plug bag. I released my debut novel. It's 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:47.319 a sci fi fantasy, magical realist memoir in the sense 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:49.880 that you'll barely know that it's about my life because 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.600 there's robots and spells and shit, but it is. So 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:55.640 if you're interested in someone who. 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.240 Knows you, there's a lot of robots and wizards around 0:01:58.280 --> 0:01:58.920 you at any gain. 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.440 That's right. Yeah, that is. If you're interested in like 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:05.560 alcoholism or my time at Cracks, that's in there too. 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.440 In a sense, it's called the Climb. There will be 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.600 a free three hour sample coming out, probably out by 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:15.840 the time this drops on the small Beans feed, which 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.800 is my own podcast network. You can find that just 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.720 by pointing your podcast app at small Beans and looking 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.920 for the Climb, or you can get the whole thing 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:29.920 over at patreon dot com slash Smallbeans slash shop, where 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.800 you can find the audiobook version, which I imagine most 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.600 people will want, but there's also a pdf version and 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.040 an e reader version and all that good stuff. 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.000 Awesome, yeah, excellent, excellent stuff. 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:42.560 Check it out. 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.600 Michael. You and I worked at a website called cracked 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.160 dot com back in the day, and I've. 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:49.600 Never heard that word, and I don't know what you're 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:50.160 talking about. 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:53.359 We worked with a guy named Tom Ryman who did 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:57.040 a great video once about how in the movie Jaws, 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:01.520 the shark is alcoholism. Right, there's no your shark. Everything 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.239 in that is explicable as a bunch of drunk people 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:09.560 by the ocean, like get fucking up and destroying their 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:13.320 own boat and whatnot. I always like that interpretation, and 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.600 I do now always watch movies with an eye for like, 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.920 what what thing in this could represent alcoholism, which has 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.160 made the Star Wars series a lot more energy. 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.839 Just gotta say that episode also made me realize which 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.359 I don't think they touch upon, even the famous shark death. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:31.680 It's like, yeah, you put a bottle in your mouth, 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:33.720 you die. Yeah, it's alcoholism. 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:40.120 It's all alcoholism anyway. You know what's not alcoholism? Michael, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:46.040 is there already? Really that is sometimes alcoholism? God willing 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.119 if we get that. The Big jim Bean sponsors Sophy's 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:51.800 been clamoring for. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.960 Yes, yeah, it sounds like me, Yeah. 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:59.880 What's like alcoholism? Is the addiction that the liberal own 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:04.280 of mainstream newspapers in the United States had with trying 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:08.080 to normalize and support the growth of fascism in Europe. 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:12.400 That is a kind of addiction. Oh that yeah, uh 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.400 huh uh huh. That is the that's the liquor of 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.320 fools is thinking that you can make a deal with 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:23.359 the fascists. Speaking of fools, you're all fools for not 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:31.039 knowing that this was the cold open and it's the 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.240 hot open. We're back, Michael. Are you toasty? Are you 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:34.920 burning up? 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.159 I'm offended by being called a fool, but I'll get 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:40.360 it in time. 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:43.839 Have question, how do you think those people that were 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.599 supposed to go to space for eight days feel about 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.760 being stuck there? And definitely I keep saying I keep 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.440 thinking about them, and I'm like, I imagine. 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.160 I imagine if you're if you get into space, it's 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.480 because your whole life has been geared towards. 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:02.120 Letting you spa sweet I would say, until it gets 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.920 to like three four months, I'd be sweet. Bonus. 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.440 This is what it's about, dope. This has been what 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.640 my whole life is for. But I don't know these people. 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:16.719 Maybe they're miserable. I don't care. Wow, you go to space, 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.760 you have to accept that you're going to space. It's 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:23.279 dangerous up there. We're not supposed to be in space. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.440 It's a bad place to be, and it's going to 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:27.120 be unpleasant. 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.960 You know that space's whole thing. 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.160 Yeah, if somebody offered you a trip to space, would 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:34.919 you go absolutely? 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:35.080 Oh? 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:39.039 Yeah, absolutely, yeah, question I'm a novel seeker. 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:43.839 Yeah, of course, but I would not enjoy it while 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.960 I was there. Right, it would be a life changing experience, 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:50.039 but it's supposed to I'm sure it's deeply uncomfortable and 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.040 physically just a nightmare. 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.080 They were supposed to go for eight days, and they're 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.480 they're saying it could be twenty twenty five. 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:01.280 Maybe, Yeah, I mean, okay, that's that's what I'm saying. 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.120 That sounds yeah, there's there's you know, you know, the 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.880 only thing less trustworthy than fascist governments in Europe in 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.159 the nineteen thirties is the Boeing Corporation today. 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:13.560 So oh, I thought you were going to say it 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.279 was like, let's killing us, let's maybe try to do 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:21.000 you know some podcasts about some bad guys. 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.360 You'll never say that. 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:28.760 We're still here fuck them. So in some ways, the 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.760 US media responded to the rise of Hitler and Mussolini 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.039 worse than the German or Italian media had done. This 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.640 was due in a degree to simple distance. Fascism was 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.560 seen by a lot of these guys. It's a foreign ideology. 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.039 So whatever they're saying about killing journalists and whatnot, that's 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.320 not going to hurt us over here in the United 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.920 States because we're not Europe right now. That wasn't the 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.839 only reason why so much of the media was sympathetic 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:57.640 to Hitler and Mussolini a lot. In a lot of cases, 0:06:57.640 --> 0:06:59.960 it was because the rich men who owned those media 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:04.480 organs were fascists, or at least fasci philo fascists, right. 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:08.000 They liked the fascists. Many of the wealthy men who 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.440 owned large published in houses saw communism as a rising 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.240 threat in Italy as a bulwark against the USSR, which, 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.400 if you just think about the military capabilities that Italy 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.840 evinced during World War Two, is extremely funny. The idea 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:26.120 of Italy trying to fight the Red Army, it's just yeah, 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:30.600 well last in about fourteen minutes. Anyway. Within days of 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:33.960 the March on Rome, the Birmingham Age Herald, a major 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:39.000 Alabama paper, described Mussolini as looking like a movie star. Wow, 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.760 he's really got a movie star. Good looks this fascist 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.960 who's remade the government in his own image. What a 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:45.600 hot guy. 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:48.440 Hey, that Putin looks good with his top off. Though 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:49.480 you got it too. 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.640 Yeah, they never stopped falling for it. Much was made 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:58.000 of the fact that actual movie stars found Mussolini magnetic. 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:01.560 In February of nineteen twenty seven, and Motion Picture Magazine 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:06.200 published a photo of Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks, both 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:10.040 movie stars, doing a fascist salute in honor of their 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:14.040 new friend Mussolini they met the year before. Yeah, yeah, 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:18.000 doug Old Doug Fairbanks doing the Mussolini salute for his 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:23.520 new friend. Benito. Rudolph Valentino, an Italian born star born 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.640 star known as the Great Lover by Hollywood press, was 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:31.000 often compared positively to Il Duce Right, Like, Wow, Valentino 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.280 and the dictator of Italy are very similar. You know, 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:39.160 good looking guys. I bet Mussolini fucks. That's journalism. 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:41.840 I need to hear that sentence. 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.320 Oh, you know, Mussolini fucked Sophie. 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.760 You know that's I don't need to hear it though. 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.360 Look that's what the US media argued, So that's the 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:52.960 cold open, and we got. 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.160 It's never a cold open with Musset. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:00.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:05.520 The early obsession many Americans had from Mussolini, which transferred 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:09.360 to Hitler in substantial degree, was due to several interlocking causes. 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.520 Katie Hole, a lecturer in American studies at the University 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:16.360 of Amsterdam, argues that these reasons were the Italian corporate 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.720 state's ability to project the image that they had solved 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:24.800 the problems of democracy, combined with Mussolini's personal masculine magnetism 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.840 and the belief that fascism offered a solution to the 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.240 Great Depression. We can see a lot of the same 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.160 factors at work today in right wing idolization of strong 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:37.760 men like Erdowin and support for profoundly anti democratic solutions 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.480 to problems, best embodied by the coup attempt on January sixth. 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.360 The reality was that Mussolini's government was incompetent, a fact 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.360 that would soon be made evident with their disastrous invasion 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.120 of Ethiopia and incompetent handling of World War Two. But 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.760 many mainstream reporters in the US took the fascist government's 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.760 claims about its own success at face value. They believe 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.200 the trains ran on time because the fascist said, we've 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.200 got the trains working, even though the trains did not 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.760 run on time. That was not a real thing. 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.680 I love when history is the exact opposite. Like I 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:13.720 recently learned that Lizzie Borden almost certainly didn't kill her parents, 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:17.320 and the media just shat on her until that became 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:18.760 the history so interesting. 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:21.720 Yeah, and as a result, you know, they really put 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.920 a black mark on all of us who have killed 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.480 people with axes, and it's just not very fair, to 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:33.480 be honest, you know, Like we're like, axe murder is 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.719 a legitimate American pastime, and I just. 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.880 Only a few steps away from criminalizing the machete. And 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:41.120 then obviously this show. 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.800 Yeah, it's always wrong to cut people up into pieces 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:45.880 because you're angry. 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:48.680 I just want to point it You've gifted me both 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.000 those things, which is so funny, I know. 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:53.720 Yeah, because Morny whatever. 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.440 I'm a patriotic, red blooded American Sophie, and I think 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.640 that everyone deserves the right to partake in this country's 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.600 great traditions, you know, And that's where I am that's 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:09.839 great acts. The Saturday Evening Post published Mussolini's autobiography as 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.800 a serial starting in nineteen twenty eight. They described the 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.600 FASCISTI movement as rough in its methods, but praised it 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.360 for halting the radical left. That's the Saturday Evening Post. 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:22.560 They're a little rough, but at least they dealt with 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:27.360 those radical workers trying to get fair wages. Similar tributes 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.640 came in from the Chicago Tribune. The New York Times 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.719 credited fascism with bringing Italy back to a state of normalcy. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.480 In his study Mussolini and Fascism, The View from America, 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.160 John Patrick Diggins notes that out of one hundred and 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.720 fifty articles that mentioned Mussolini and new US newspapers from 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.160 nineteen twenty five to nineteen thirty two, the majority had 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:52.719 either a neutral or a amused positive tone. Right, there 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.600 was no sort of fear about this guy, you know. 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:57.719 He was just kind of exciting and look he dealt 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:02.240 with those men old commis, right, these evil anarchists. One 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.840 of the relatively few journalists to write objectively on Mussolini 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:08.600 for American papers in this early portion of his reign 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.400 was John Gunther, who profiled him for Harper's and his 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:16.320 piece is an interesting historical document for its takes on Mussolini, 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.400 but it's absolutely critical for its insights into the way 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:26.079 the international press functioned around Mussolini, right Gunther. Because he's 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.400 a guy who gets to interview in profile, Mussolini is 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.120 familiar with the process, and he sees what happens to 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.760 other journalists, the guys who are writing all of these 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.719 fawning articles that are turning Mussolini into a celebrity back 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.880 in the US. Quote interviews, Mussolini knows are the best 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:45.000 of all possible forms of propaganda. Thus he is so 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:49.160 lavish with them. Most newspapermen and their editors cannot resist 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.439 the flattery of conversation with a dictator or head of state. 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.920 Once they have been received by Mussolini or Hitler, they 0:12:55.960 --> 0:13:00.240 feel a sense of obligation, which warps their objectivity. Is 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:04.400 very difficult for the average correspondent to write unfavorably about 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.680 a busy and important man who has just donated him 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.920 a friendly hour of conversation. I think it's a critical 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.080 revelation not just about how the media, even up to today, 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.120 reports on dictators and fascists, but how they report On 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.880 like guys like Peter Teel, very wealthy billionaires, guys like 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:24.080 Elon Musk. Right, they're so odd to be in the 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:26.520 presence of a celebrity and a man of power who 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.560 is dedicating time that makes them feel so important that 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:34.679 they become warmer and less objective towards the subject of 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:35.240 the interview. 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.120 And if you happen to form any kind of personal connection, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.760 like my own window into this is working for IGN 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.040 and reviewing games, and they're constantly accused of and I 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:48.240 think you have to be really rigorous with yourself to 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:53.120 avoid being like, well, the game sucked, but they all 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.199 seem so nice, and they gave me access to their 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.840 time and their work. I can't just give them a 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:03.040 four or whatever. And that's just video game reviews. So 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.080 I can't imagine being like, I'm gonna come out against 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:09.400 the president actually after meeting him and shaking his hand 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:09.839 and all that. 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:16.640 Yeah, it's a real problem, one that has not gotten 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.040 to be any less of a problem. 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.640 I think that's somewhat propinquity. Good. 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.320 Yeah, yeah, that is a good word. Speaking of propinquity, 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:28.360 someone interested in drawing more modern parallels here might bring 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.280 up the case of Maggie Haberman. Her work for The 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.720 New York Times reporting on the Trump White House was 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.440 praised by many liberals, even though Trump's people saw her 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:40.680 as providing positive pr Haberman was criticized back in twenty 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:44.680 twenty two when she finally published a much ballyhooed book 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.720 about the Trump administration, which included a she quoted the 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.960 former president as promising not to leave office after his 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.680 defeat in twenty twenty. Now, Haberman didn't report on this 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:57.360 at the time, and a lot of people were, like, 0:14:57.760 --> 0:14:59.720 the fact that the president said in front of you 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:02.240 that he would refuse to leave office after losing an 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:07.160 election was probably something the American people immediately needed access to. 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.920 As a journalist, you had an ethical responsibility to tell 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.160 them right away. But Haberman, a lot of people will allege, 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.320 wanted to withhold this information because if she put it out, 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.080 she would have lost her access to Trump, and she 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.760 wanted to stick with him because she wanted to get 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:26.640 more stuff to put in her books so that she 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:30.320 would get more money for it. Right The argument here 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.200 the criticism of Maggie is that she held off on 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:37.400 reporting crucial information about a threat to democracy for her 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:42.400 own personal financial enrichment right now. Haberman's people, for their part, 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.480 claim she shared this fact with her editors, and her 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.080 editors at the time were like, no, the fact that 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.960 the president has refused to leave office is not newsworthy, 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.760 which I do believe editors at the time would make 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:58.760 that call. But that's a bad unethical call, right, Like what. 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.760 Is dimentionally He'll say it to a bunch of evangelicals 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:04.400 on camera, so it'll be fine. 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:05.440 Yeah, I just. 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.000 It'll come out, thank you. 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.280 Don't worry. January's right around the corner. Something's gonna happen. 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:16.880 Yeah. 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.080 Back in the thirties, New York Times correspondents made equally 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.400 problematic judgments in their coverage of our friend of the Pod, 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.240 Adolf Hitler. Perhaps the most sinister example of this was 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:31.120 the case of New York Times correspondent Frederick Birschell. Prior 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:34.440 to Nazism's final victory over by Our Democracy, Birchill had 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:38.120 followed Hans Schaeffer in what was called the caged Hitler theory. 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:40.760 This was the idea that if Hitler got into power, 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.280 decent conservatives and government would moderate his behavior, and so 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.360 letting Hitler win was not disastrous, right, Like it was 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:52.160 a brilliant plan to weigh the Nazi leader down with 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.600 busy work that would stop him from doing any damage. Right, 0:16:55.760 --> 0:17:00.360 perfect strategy. Yeah, that's gonna work. Great, thank god, Yeah, yeah, 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.640 thank god. We've got this. We've got the plan. Speaking 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:08.200 of plans, Michael, I have a plan to sell you 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:17.840 some of these products and services. We're back, Michael. I 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.280 hope you have enjoyed purchasing. 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:21.520 I bought them all. 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:22.560 You bought them all? 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.919 Yeah, I bought them all purely to support the economy 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:27.119 and therefore the state. 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:29.800 Yeah, you got lasick for parts of your body that 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:34.440 aren't even your eyes. You just use the lasers at you. 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.240 I said, how much laser can this buy me? And 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:38.960 slap my wallet on the count. 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.320 That's right, That's right. Yeah, they love They just love lasering. 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:46.000 You know, any any god fearing American does really anyway 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.800 back to a non god fearing American. What are you 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:54.280 talking about, Sophie, I'm just talking about our our man 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.080 who thinks that he's he's going to stop Hitler by 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:58.520 giving Hitler everything he wants. 0:17:59.040 --> 0:17:59.240 Now. 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.040 Burchell was one of a few New York Times Berlin 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.160 Bureau correspondents who stayed on after the Nazis took power. 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.000 He had a major influence on how Americans perceived the 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.840 coming regime, and so it had an impact when he claimed, 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.080 in writing for The New York Times, there will be 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:17.640 quote no extreme persecution of Nazi opponents under Hitler's regime, 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.280 and he said the Nazis aren't going to be mean 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.280 to anybody who opposed them because quote, there would be 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:28.880 no advantage to the government in unsettling Germany's social structure. Yeah. 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.680 You really got the pulse of the Nazis there, Burchill. 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.320 What would they have to game killing all the Jews? 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:42.680 That would be Meanwhile, he's doing speeches like we must 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:49.200 give Yeah, no, here's the deal. We let him, when 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:54.000 we fee let him, you know, take more rope, more rope, bring. 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.160 Him down, the whole thing, a rope over to him, 0:18:58.200 --> 0:18:58.920 and then leave. 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.600 You know, we see the wire. This is a five 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:03.400 year process. 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:08.280 Yeah, yeah, So the Enabling Act of March nineteen thirty 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.880 three brought the Nazis pretty much total power. Many Americans 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.959 did find this deeply unsettling, and so with the Times 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.479 a consent, Burchell took to the airwaves on CBS radio, 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.960 he avoided any mention of the anti Semitic violence that 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.760 Nazis had already been engaging in since Hitler's ascension, and 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.959 instead toward told millions of Americans there was quote no 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:34.480 cause for general alarm. He advised his audience to dismiss 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.879 from their minds any thought that there would be in 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:41.040 Germany any slaughter of the National Socialist Government's enemies or 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:45.720 racial oppression in any vital degree. The wrongest a man 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.960 has ever been, like powerful Jaco Tapper. Energy out of 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:55.480 this guy, just like the Nazis aren't going to kill anyone. 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.960 Why would you think that, calm down, everything's gonna be fine. 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.920 Quote me on that. It's almost like someone torturously trying 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:08.240 to figure out an opposite day sentence. Yeah, quickly, the 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:15.119 Nazis will spare all the Christians. This dude's wrong or lying. 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:16.800 This is not coming together. 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:21.560 Yeah. So, while Birchall was optimistic about the Hitler regime 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.199 in public, he knew that he couldn't actually like, he 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.040 knew that because he's reporting from Berlin. He knows the 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:32.360 Nazis are actively at the moment murdering Jews and Communists, right, 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.280 He knew that what he was saying was indefensible, but 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:39.480 he justified lying to make Hitler seem safe to his publisher, 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:44.760 Arthur Sulzberger. By informing Soulsburger, I conceived of the notion 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.600 of making the broadcast a bait for a real live 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:50.600 interview with Hitler, one which I have been vainly seeking. 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.000 He was lying to the American people about Hitler not 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:57.440 wanting to murder anyone, so that he could get an 0:20:57.440 --> 0:20:58.359 interview with Hitler. 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:03.040 Yeah. Great, and presumably the interview is him going like 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:07.200 I want to murder everybody, you know, it's just disseminating 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:08.879 his view. So it was. 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:13.280 Yeah, it's like the most poisonous access journalism has ever been. 0:21:13.440 --> 0:21:14.280 Is this right here? 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:14.600 Yep? 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.880 And now this is officially the point in this two 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:24.000 episode story arc where I'm going, Okay, I see where 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.160 you're going with this in terms of modern day Yeah, 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.480 like Israeli coming to Coman. 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.240 Not just that, Honestly, like I wrote this before, you 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:38.600 know that had reached the global fashion. Yeah, yeah, it's 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:40.880 like a lot of things. You know, we've been seeing this. 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:43.560 This has been very evident and clear for a long time. 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:46.199 Although you are right, like that's part of why I 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:49.120 felt the need to rejigger this article in light of 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:51.480 what's been happening in goz It, right, is that like, oh, 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.239 I think there's actually a moral responsibility to draw that 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.600 comparison and make it much clearer. There was an immediate 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.720 and a massive backlash to whatchual was doing with The Times, 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.200 and it was led with particular fervor by a number 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:06.560 of Jewish papers. Now, none of these because these are 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.000 like small community papers, right, because you know you've got 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.440 this is still a period in which there are neighborhoods 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.720 that are like, this is the Jewish neighborhood in this 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:17.840 city or whatever, and so they'll have their paper. None 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.440 of these have the clout or the reach of The Times, though, 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:22.679 so none of them are able to speak to a 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:27.240