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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hashtag never again when we do this.

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Speaker 1: Podcast hashtag never again. We're never going to do this podcast.

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Speaker 1: That's where we're going with.

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Speaker 2: We're done, We're done forever. Anyway, Welcome back to the Bastards,

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Speaker 2: a podcast where I just carried out a cunning power

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Speaker 2: play against my producer, Sophie Lifterman. She was not ready

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Speaker 2: for it at all. It came down upon her like

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Speaker 2: like the tanks of Operation Barbarossa on Michael Robert.

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Speaker 3: How does it feel? How does it feel?

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Speaker 2: Dad? It feels? You know, this is this is my

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Speaker 2: ensurgiment of Kiev, you know, perfect beautiful Michael, I feel

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Speaker 2: like a god.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Great, unstopped. That's the goal.

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Speaker 1: I really, I really want to cut off the feed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you probably should. I am now comparing myself to

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Speaker 2: the fair Mack.

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Speaker 3: So that's not going to Daniel Malcolm.

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Speaker 1: Could you just shut him off?

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Speaker 2: Just replace me with an AI version asking Michael, Michael,

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Speaker 2: how are you doing today? I hear you've got a novel.

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Speaker 3: Oh boy, Oh we're doing the plug right at the top.

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Speaker 3: That's great.

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Speaker 2: We're in the p zone. Michael.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I've had long had a fantasy of founding the

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Speaker 3: Sokel low kel kel zone zone. But that's neither here

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Speaker 3: nor there. Robert, thank you for the opportunity to push

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Speaker 3: my novel. I really really mean it. From the bottom

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Speaker 3: of my plug bag. I released my debut novel. It's

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Speaker 3: a sci fi fantasy, magical realist memoir in the sense

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Speaker 3: that you'll barely know that it's about my life because

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Speaker 3: there's robots and spells and shit, but it is. So

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Speaker 3: if you're interested in someone who.

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Speaker 2: Knows you, there's a lot of robots and wizards around

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Speaker 2: you at any gain.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, that is. If you're interested in like

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Speaker 3: alcoholism or my time at Cracks, that's in there too.

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Speaker 3: In a sense, it's called the Climb. There will be

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Speaker 3: a free three hour sample coming out, probably out by

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Speaker 3: the time this drops on the small Beans feed, which

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Speaker 3: is my own podcast network. You can find that just

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Speaker 3: by pointing your podcast app at small Beans and looking

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Speaker 3: for the Climb, or you can get the whole thing

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Speaker 3: over at patreon dot com slash Smallbeans slash shop, where

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Speaker 3: you can find the audiobook version, which I imagine most

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Speaker 3: people will want, but there's also a pdf version and

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Speaker 3: an e reader version and all that good stuff.

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Speaker 2: Awesome, yeah, excellent, excellent stuff.

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Speaker 3: Check it out.

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Speaker 2: Michael. You and I worked at a website called cracked

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Speaker 2: dot com back in the day, and I've.

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Speaker 3: Never heard that word, and I don't know what you're

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Speaker 3: talking about.

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Speaker 2: We worked with a guy named Tom Ryman who did

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Speaker 2: a great video once about how in the movie Jaws,

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Speaker 2: the shark is alcoholism. Right, there's no your shark. Everything

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Speaker 2: in that is explicable as a bunch of drunk people

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Speaker 2: by the ocean, like get fucking up and destroying their

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Speaker 2: own boat and whatnot. I always like that interpretation, and

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Speaker 2: I do now always watch movies with an eye for like,

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Speaker 2: what what thing in this could represent alcoholism, which has

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Speaker 2: made the Star Wars series a lot more energy.

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Speaker 3: Just gotta say that episode also made me realize which

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Speaker 3: I don't think they touch upon, even the famous shark death.

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Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, you put a bottle in your mouth,

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Speaker 3: you die. Yeah, it's alcoholism.

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Speaker 2: It's all alcoholism anyway. You know what's not alcoholism? Michael,

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Speaker 2: is there already? Really that is sometimes alcoholism? God willing

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Speaker 2: if we get that. The Big jim Bean sponsors Sophy's

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Speaker 2: been clamoring for.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it sounds like me, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: What's like alcoholism? Is the addiction that the liberal own

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Speaker 2: of mainstream newspapers in the United States had with trying

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Speaker 2: to normalize and support the growth of fascism in Europe.

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Speaker 2: That is a kind of addiction. Oh that yeah, uh

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Speaker 2: huh uh huh. That is the that's the liquor of

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Speaker 2: fools is thinking that you can make a deal with

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Speaker 2: the fascists. Speaking of fools, you're all fools for not

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Speaker 2: knowing that this was the cold open and it's the

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Speaker 2: hot open. We're back, Michael. Are you toasty? Are you

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Speaker 2: burning up?

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Speaker 3: I'm offended by being called a fool, but I'll get

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Speaker 3: it in time.

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Speaker 1: Have question, how do you think those people that were

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Speaker 1: supposed to go to space for eight days feel about

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Speaker 1: being stuck there? And definitely I keep saying I keep

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Speaker 1: thinking about them, and I'm like, I imagine.

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Speaker 2: I imagine if you're if you get into space, it's

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Speaker 2: because your whole life has been geared towards.

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Speaker 3: Letting you spa sweet I would say, until it gets

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Speaker 3: to like three four months, I'd be sweet. Bonus.

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Speaker 2: This is what it's about, dope. This has been what

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Speaker 2: my whole life is for. But I don't know these people.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they're miserable. I don't care. Wow, you go to space,

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Speaker 2: you have to accept that you're going to space. It's

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Speaker 2: dangerous up there. We're not supposed to be in space.

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Speaker 2: It's a bad place to be, and it's going to

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Speaker 2: be unpleasant.

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Speaker 3: You know that space's whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if somebody offered you a trip to space, would

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Speaker 1: you go absolutely?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, question I'm a novel seeker.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, but I would not enjoy it while

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Speaker 2: I was there. Right, it would be a life changing experience,

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Speaker 2: but it's supposed to I'm sure it's deeply uncomfortable and

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Speaker 2: physically just a nightmare.

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Speaker 1: They were supposed to go for eight days, and they're

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Speaker 1: they're saying it could be twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: Maybe, Yeah, I mean, okay, that's that's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: That sounds yeah, there's there's you know, you know, the

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Speaker 2: only thing less trustworthy than fascist governments in Europe in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties is the Boeing Corporation today.

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Speaker 1: So oh, I thought you were going to say it

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Speaker 1: was like, let's killing us, let's maybe try to do

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Speaker 1: you know some podcasts about some bad guys.

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Speaker 3: You'll never say that.

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Speaker 2: We're still here fuck them. So in some ways, the

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Speaker 2: US media responded to the rise of Hitler and Mussolini

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Speaker 2: worse than the German or Italian media had done. This

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Speaker 2: was due in a degree to simple distance. Fascism was

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Speaker 2: seen by a lot of these guys. It's a foreign ideology.

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Speaker 2: So whatever they're saying about killing journalists and whatnot, that's

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Speaker 2: not going to hurt us over here in the United

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Speaker 2: States because we're not Europe right now. That wasn't the

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Speaker 2: only reason why so much of the media was sympathetic

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Speaker 2: to Hitler and Mussolini a lot. In a lot of cases,

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Speaker 2: it was because the rich men who owned those media

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Speaker 2: organs were fascists, or at least fasci philo fascists, right.

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Speaker 2: They liked the fascists. Many of the wealthy men who

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Speaker 2: owned large published in houses saw communism as a rising

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Speaker 2: threat in Italy as a bulwark against the USSR, which,

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Speaker 2: if you just think about the military capabilities that Italy

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Speaker 2: evinced during World War Two, is extremely funny. The idea

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Speaker 2: of Italy trying to fight the Red Army, it's just yeah,

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Speaker 2: well last in about fourteen minutes. Anyway. Within days of

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Speaker 2: the March on Rome, the Birmingham Age Herald, a major

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Speaker 2: Alabama paper, described Mussolini as looking like a movie star. Wow,

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Speaker 2: he's really got a movie star. Good looks this fascist

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Speaker 2: who's remade the government in his own image. What a

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Speaker 2: hot guy.

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Speaker 3: Hey, that Putin looks good with his top off. Though

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Speaker 3: you got it too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they never stopped falling for it. Much was made

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Speaker 2: of the fact that actual movie stars found Mussolini magnetic.

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Speaker 2: In February of nineteen twenty seven, and Motion Picture Magazine

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Speaker 2: published a photo of Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks, both

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Speaker 2: movie stars, doing a fascist salute in honor of their

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Speaker 2: new friend Mussolini they met the year before. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: doug Old Doug Fairbanks doing the Mussolini salute for his

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Speaker 2: new friend. Benito. Rudolph Valentino, an Italian born star born

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Speaker 2: star known as the Great Lover by Hollywood press, was

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Speaker 2: often compared positively to Il Duce Right, Like, Wow, Valentino

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Speaker 2: and the dictator of Italy are very similar. You know,

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Speaker 2: good looking guys. I bet Mussolini fucks. That's journalism.

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Speaker 1: I need to hear that sentence.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you know, Mussolini fucked Sophie.

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Speaker 1: You know that's I don't need to hear it though.

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Speaker 3: Look that's what the US media argued, So that's the

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Speaker 3: cold open, and we got.

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Speaker 2: It's never a cold open with Musset.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: The early obsession many Americans had from Mussolini, which transferred

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Speaker 2: to Hitler in substantial degree, was due to several interlocking causes.

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Speaker 2: Katie Hole, a lecturer in American studies at the University

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Speaker 2: of Amsterdam, argues that these reasons were the Italian corporate

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Speaker 2: state's ability to project the image that they had solved

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Speaker 2: the problems of democracy, combined with Mussolini's personal masculine magnetism

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Speaker 2: and the belief that fascism offered a solution to the

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Speaker 2: Great Depression. We can see a lot of the same

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Speaker 2: factors at work today in right wing idolization of strong

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Speaker 2: men like Erdowin and support for profoundly anti democratic solutions

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Speaker 2: to problems, best embodied by the coup attempt on January sixth.

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Speaker 2: The reality was that Mussolini's government was incompetent, a fact

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Speaker 2: that would soon be made evident with their disastrous invasion

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Speaker 2: of Ethiopia and incompetent handling of World War Two. But

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Speaker 2: many mainstream reporters in the US took the fascist government's

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Speaker 2: claims about its own success at face value. They believe

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Speaker 2: the trains ran on time because the fascist said, we've

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Speaker 2: got the trains working, even though the trains did not

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Speaker 2: run on time. That was not a real thing.

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Speaker 3: I love when history is the exact opposite. Like I

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Speaker 3: recently learned that Lizzie Borden almost certainly didn't kill her parents,

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Speaker 3: and the media just shat on her until that became

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Speaker 3: the history so interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and as a result, you know, they really put

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Speaker 2: a black mark on all of us who have killed

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Speaker 2: people with axes, and it's just not very fair, to

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Speaker 2: be honest, you know, Like we're like, axe murder is

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Speaker 2: a legitimate American pastime, and I just.

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Speaker 3: Only a few steps away from criminalizing the machete. And

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Speaker 3: then obviously this show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's always wrong to cut people up into pieces

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Speaker 2: because you're angry.

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Speaker 1: I just want to point it You've gifted me both

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Speaker 1: those things, which is so funny, I know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because Morny whatever.

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Speaker 2: I'm a patriotic, red blooded American Sophie, and I think

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Speaker 2: that everyone deserves the right to partake in this country's

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Speaker 2: great traditions, you know, And that's where I am that's

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Speaker 2: great acts. The Saturday Evening Post published Mussolini's autobiography as

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Speaker 2: a serial starting in nineteen twenty eight. They described the

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Speaker 2: FASCISTI movement as rough in its methods, but praised it

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Speaker 2: for halting the radical left. That's the Saturday Evening Post.

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Speaker 2: They're a little rough, but at least they dealt with

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Speaker 2: those radical workers trying to get fair wages. Similar tributes

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Speaker 2: came in from the Chicago Tribune. The New York Times

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Speaker 2: credited fascism with bringing Italy back to a state of normalcy.

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Speaker 2: In his study Mussolini and Fascism, The View from America,

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Speaker 2: John Patrick Diggins notes that out of one hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty articles that mentioned Mussolini and new US newspapers from

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five to nineteen thirty two, the majority had

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Speaker 2: either a neutral or a amused positive tone. Right, there

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Speaker 2: was no sort of fear about this guy, you know.

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Speaker 2: He was just kind of exciting and look he dealt

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Speaker 2: with those men old commis, right, these evil anarchists. One

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Speaker 2: of the relatively few journalists to write objectively on Mussolini

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Speaker 2: for American papers in this early portion of his reign

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Speaker 2: was John Gunther, who profiled him for Harper's and his

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Speaker 2: piece is an interesting historical document for its takes on Mussolini,

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Speaker 2: but it's absolutely critical for its insights into the way

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Speaker 2: the international press functioned around Mussolini, right Gunther. Because he's

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Speaker 2: a guy who gets to interview in profile, Mussolini is

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Speaker 2: familiar with the process, and he sees what happens to

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Speaker 2: other journalists, the guys who are writing all of these

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Speaker 2: fawning articles that are turning Mussolini into a celebrity back

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Speaker 2: in the US. Quote interviews, Mussolini knows are the best

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Speaker 2: of all possible forms of propaganda. Thus he is so

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Speaker 2: lavish with them. Most newspapermen and their editors cannot resist

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Speaker 2: the flattery of conversation with a dictator or head of state.

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Speaker 2: Once they have been received by Mussolini or Hitler, they

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Speaker 2: feel a sense of obligation, which warps their objectivity. Is

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Speaker 2: very difficult for the average correspondent to write unfavorably about

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Speaker 2: a busy and important man who has just donated him

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Speaker 2: a friendly hour of conversation. I think it's a critical

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Speaker 2: revelation not just about how the media, even up to today,

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Speaker 2: reports on dictators and fascists, but how they report On

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Speaker 2: like guys like Peter Teel, very wealthy billionaires, guys like

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk. Right, they're so odd to be in the

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Speaker 2: presence of a celebrity and a man of power who

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Speaker 2: is dedicating time that makes them feel so important that

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Speaker 2: they become warmer and less objective towards the subject of

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Speaker 2: the interview.

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Speaker 3: And if you happen to form any kind of personal connection,

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Speaker 3: like my own window into this is working for IGN

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Speaker 3: and reviewing games, and they're constantly accused of and I

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Speaker 3: think you have to be really rigorous with yourself to

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Speaker 3: avoid being like, well, the game sucked, but they all

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Speaker 3: seem so nice, and they gave me access to their

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Speaker 3: time and their work. I can't just give them a

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Speaker 3: four or whatever. And that's just video game reviews. So

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Speaker 3: I can't imagine being like, I'm gonna come out against

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Speaker 3: the president actually after meeting him and shaking his hand

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Speaker 3: and all that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a real problem, one that has not gotten

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Speaker 2: to be any less of a problem.

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Speaker 3: I think that's somewhat propinquity. Good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that is a good word. Speaking of propinquity,

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Speaker 2: someone interested in drawing more modern parallels here might bring

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Speaker 2: up the case of Maggie Haberman. Her work for The

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Speaker 2: New York Times reporting on the Trump White House was

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Speaker 2: praised by many liberals, even though Trump's people saw her

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Speaker 2: as providing positive pr Haberman was criticized back in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty two when she finally published a much ballyhooed book

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Speaker 2: about the Trump administration, which included a she quoted the

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Speaker 2: former president as promising not to leave office after his

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Speaker 2: defeat in twenty twenty. Now, Haberman didn't report on this

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Speaker 2: at the time, and a lot of people were, like,

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Speaker 2: the fact that the president said in front of you

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Speaker 2: that he would refuse to leave office after losing an

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Speaker 2: election was probably something the American people immediately needed access to.

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Speaker 2: As a journalist, you had an ethical responsibility to tell

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Speaker 2: them right away. But Haberman, a lot of people will allege,

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Speaker 2: wanted to withhold this information because if she put it out,

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Speaker 2: she would have lost her access to Trump, and she

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Speaker 2: wanted to stick with him because she wanted to get

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Speaker 2: more stuff to put in her books so that she

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Speaker 2: would get more money for it. Right The argument here

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Speaker 2: the criticism of Maggie is that she held off on

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Speaker 2: reporting crucial information about a threat to democracy for her

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Speaker 2: own personal financial enrichment right now. Haberman's people, for their part,

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Speaker 2: claim she shared this fact with her editors, and her

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Speaker 2: editors at the time were like, no, the fact that

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Speaker 2: the president has refused to leave office is not newsworthy,

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Speaker 2: which I do believe editors at the time would make

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Speaker 2: that call. But that's a bad unethical call, right, Like what.

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Speaker 3: Is dimentionally He'll say it to a bunch of evangelicals

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Speaker 3: on camera, so it'll be fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just.

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Speaker 3: It'll come out, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry. January's right around the corner. Something's gonna happen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Back in the thirties, New York Times correspondents made equally

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Speaker 2: problematic judgments in their coverage of our friend of the Pod,

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Speaker 2: Adolf Hitler. Perhaps the most sinister example of this was

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Speaker 2: the case of New York Times correspondent Frederick Birschell. Prior

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Speaker 2: to Nazism's final victory over by Our Democracy, Birchill had

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Speaker 2: followed Hans Schaeffer in what was called the caged Hitler theory.

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Speaker 2: This was the idea that if Hitler got into power,

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Speaker 2: decent conservatives and government would moderate his behavior, and so

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Speaker 2: letting Hitler win was not disastrous, right, Like it was

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Speaker 2: a brilliant plan to weigh the Nazi leader down with

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Speaker 2: busy work that would stop him from doing any damage. Right,

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Speaker 2: perfect strategy. Yeah, that's gonna work. Great, thank god, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: thank god. We've got this. We've got the plan. Speaking

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Speaker 2: of plans, Michael, I have a plan to sell you

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Speaker 2: some of these products and services. We're back, Michael. I

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Speaker 2: hope you have enjoyed purchasing.

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Speaker 3: I bought them all.

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Speaker 2: You bought them all?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I bought them all purely to support the economy

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Speaker 3: and therefore the state.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you got lasick for parts of your body that

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Speaker 2: aren't even your eyes. You just use the lasers at you.

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Speaker 3: I said, how much laser can this buy me? And

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Speaker 3: slap my wallet on the count.

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Speaker 2: That's right, That's right. Yeah, they love They just love lasering.

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Speaker 2: You know, any any god fearing American does really anyway

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Speaker 2: back to a non god fearing American. What are you

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Speaker 2: talking about, Sophie, I'm just talking about our our man

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Speaker 2: who thinks that he's he's going to stop Hitler by

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Speaker 2: giving Hitler everything he wants.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Burchell was one of a few New York Times Berlin

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Speaker 2: Bureau correspondents who stayed on after the Nazis took power.

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Speaker 2: He had a major influence on how Americans perceived the

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Speaker 2: coming regime, and so it had an impact when he claimed,

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Speaker 2: in writing for The New York Times, there will be

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Speaker 2: quote no extreme persecution of Nazi opponents under Hitler's regime,

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Speaker 2: and he said the Nazis aren't going to be mean

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Speaker 2: to anybody who opposed them because quote, there would be

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Speaker 2: no advantage to the government in unsettling Germany's social structure. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You really got the pulse of the Nazis there, Burchill.

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Speaker 3: What would they have to game killing all the Jews?

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Speaker 3: That would be Meanwhile, he's doing speeches like we must

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Speaker 3: give Yeah, no, here's the deal. We let him, when

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Speaker 3: we fee let him, you know, take more rope, more rope, bring.

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Speaker 2: Him down, the whole thing, a rope over to him,

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Speaker 2: and then leave.

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Speaker 3: You know, we see the wire. This is a five

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Speaker 3: year process.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So the Enabling Act of March nineteen thirty

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Speaker 2: three brought the Nazis pretty much total power. Many Americans

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Speaker 2: did find this deeply unsettling, and so with the Times

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Speaker 2: a consent, Burchell took to the airwaves on CBS radio,

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Speaker 2: he avoided any mention of the anti Semitic violence that

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Speaker 2: Nazis had already been engaging in since Hitler's ascension, and

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Speaker 2: instead toward told millions of Americans there was quote no

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Speaker 2: cause for general alarm. He advised his audience to dismiss

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Speaker 2: from their minds any thought that there would be in

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Speaker 2: Germany any slaughter of the National Socialist Government's enemies or

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Speaker 2: racial oppression in any vital degree. The wrongest a man

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Speaker 2: has ever been, like powerful Jaco Tapper. Energy out of

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Speaker 2: this guy, just like the Nazis aren't going to kill anyone.

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Speaker 2: Why would you think that, calm down, everything's gonna be fine.

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Speaker 3: Quote me on that. It's almost like someone torturously trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out an opposite day sentence. Yeah, quickly, the

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Speaker 3: Nazis will spare all the Christians. This dude's wrong or lying.

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Speaker 3: This is not coming together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, while Birchall was optimistic about the Hitler regime

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Speaker 2: in public, he knew that he couldn't actually like, he

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Speaker 2: knew that because he's reporting from Berlin. He knows the

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Speaker 2: Nazis are actively at the moment murdering Jews and Communists, right,

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Speaker 2: He knew that what he was saying was indefensible, but

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Speaker 2: he justified lying to make Hitler seem safe to his publisher,

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Speaker 2: Arthur Sulzberger. By informing Soulsburger, I conceived of the notion

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Speaker 2: of making the broadcast a bait for a real live

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Speaker 2: interview with Hitler, one which I have been vainly seeking.

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Speaker 2: He was lying to the American people about Hitler not

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Speaker 2: wanting to murder anyone, so that he could get an

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Speaker 2: interview with Hitler.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Great, and presumably the interview is him going like

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Speaker 3: I want to murder everybody, you know, it's just disseminating

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Speaker 3: his view. So it was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the most poisonous access journalism has ever been.

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Speaker 2: Is this right here?

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Speaker 1: Yep?

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Speaker 3: And now this is officially the point in this two

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Speaker 3: episode story arc where I'm going, Okay, I see where

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Speaker 3: you're going with this in terms of modern day Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like Israeli coming to Coman.

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Speaker 2: Not just that, Honestly, like I wrote this before, you

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Speaker 2: know that had reached the global fashion. Yeah, yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: like a lot of things. You know, we've been seeing this.

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Speaker 2: This has been very evident and clear for a long time.

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Speaker 2: Although you are right, like that's part of why I

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Speaker 2: felt the need to rejigger this article in light of

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Speaker 2: what's been happening in goz It, right, is that like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I think there's actually a moral responsibility to draw that

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Speaker 2: comparison and make it much clearer. There was an immediate

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Speaker 2: and a massive backlash to whatchual was doing with The Times,

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Speaker 2: and it was led with particular fervor by a number

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Speaker 2: of Jewish papers. Now, none of these because these are

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Speaker 2: like small community papers, right, because you know you've got

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Speaker 2: this is still a period in which there are neighborhoods

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Speaker 2: that are like, this is the Jewish neighborhood in this

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Speaker 2: city or whatever, and so they'll have their paper. None

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Speaker 2: of these have the clout or the reach of The Times, though,

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Speaker 2: so none of them are able to speak to a

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Speaker 2: national audience. Really, they are rightfully yelling about what Hitler's doing,

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Speaker 2: but they just don't have the kind of mouthpiece that

403
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Speaker 2: The Times is. And for the next ten years, The

404
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 2: New York Times failed utterly to hire any men of

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Speaker 2: serious skill to work at Berlin Bureau. Much of this

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Speaker 2: can be traced to the owner of the paper, Adolph Ox,

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Speaker 2: who wanted his reporters to conduct themselves like quote, an

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Speaker 2: order of monks. One result of Ox's commitment to impartial journalism,

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Speaker 2: as he saw it, was that most reports from Berlin

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Speaker 2: during Hitler's rise and the early years of the regime

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Speaker 2: we're little more than a collection of quotes from various

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Speaker 2: German newspapers. This began became a problem when the Nazis

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Speaker 2: started banning opposition papers from taking control and taking control

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Speaker 2: of Jewish own publishing houses like Olstein. So the Nazis

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Speaker 2: run the papers, and Ox is like, we should just

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Speaker 2: most of our coverage, should just be reporting on what complications.

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Speaker 3: Yeah right, It's now also amazing because it isn't one

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Speaker 3: of their stupid arguments for killing everyone that the Jews

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Speaker 3: run the media. It's like, yeah, the projection thing. It's like, no,

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Speaker 3: you run the media.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well they've taken over now. But like, what's interesting

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Speaker 2: to me Ox, this guy who's like, you know, we

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Speaker 2: should mostly just be reporting what the German press is saying,

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Speaker 2: not being critical to the Nazis.

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Speaker 3: It's transparents, it's fair and balanced to just transparently pass

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Speaker 3: things along.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yes, and he is he is he is Jewish.

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Speaker 2: Ox is a Jewish Man, right, But he disliked the

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Speaker 2: idea that the Times might be he's so obsessed with objectivity.

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Speaker 2: His big fear is not we're going to let a

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Speaker 2: genocide happen. It's if we're seen as sympathetic to Jews

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Speaker 2: in Germany, people might consider us an activist paper. And

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Speaker 2: there's nothing worse for.

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Speaker 3: A personal mistake. And I'm that Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like these people are disgusted by the concept of activism.

436
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 3: Right.

437
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: Arthur Hayes Solsburger, effectively Ox's air as publisher of The Times,

438
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: admitted privately that he didn't have any sympathy. Again, Sulzburger

439
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 2: is also Jewish. He had no sympathy for Jews suffering

440
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: under Nazism because and he this is literally what he writes,

441
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 2: he was quote too fortunately born right. In other words,

442
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: Sulzburg admitted, I just don't care about poor Jews suffering

443
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 2: in Germany because I'm a rich, urban Jewish man in

444
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: the United States. Why would I be sympathetic to poor, uneducated,

445
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: rural Jews fleeing from Eastern Europe? Right, he got too.

446
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 3: Seinfeld on Bill Maher spoken Cigars, saying Trump is not

447
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 3: it's funny how Trump won't really affect me. Yeah, no shit, dude,

448
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 3: of course, awareness beyond that.

449
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's and it's just very clear. Solsburger found these

450
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 2: people almost like these poor refugees from Eastern Europe who

451
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: had run and flooded in the Germany as a result

452
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: of you know, pagrams during the Russian Civil War. He

453
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 2: found them as gross as the Nazis did, right, because

454
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 2: they're like poor and dirty. You know, that's this guy's attitude, right.

455
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that about them, but like, that's clearly

456
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 2: what Solsburger thinks. As early as the eighteen nineties, Solzberger

457
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: and Ox had embarked on a quest to, in their

458
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 2: words again their words, de jewify The New York Times.

459
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: The current publisher of The New York Times, by the way,

460
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: is Arthur Greg Sulzberger. On a related note, here's a

461
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: tweet from climate reporter Kendri Pierre Lewis about the conversation

462
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 2: she had with a quote top New York Times editor.

463
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: I wonder who it was. I think about a lot

464
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: about the top New York Times editor who I told

465
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: that his story. Urians were warning, we're in a similar

466
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 2: period to the ramp up to the Holocaust, and maybe

467
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: we could look back and see what the New York

468
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: Times had done wrong to not repeat mistakes. He shrugged,

469
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 2: The New York Times didn't really cover the Holocaust, and

470
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 2: that's true. I don't know if she was talking to Soulsburger,

471
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: but whoever she was talking to at the Times had

472
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: the same attitude that Sulsberger had to the Holocaust, which

473
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: is that's not our business.

474
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: I don't know. I haven't thought that far. I don't care.

475
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: Is it good to cover genocide? Impossible to say? What

476
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: do you have to be unbiased to do so?

477
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 3: Is it perhaps why Early Man created the concept of

478
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 3: impartial journalism to whotos about genocides?

479
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, huts tutsis have different opinions on machetes. Like, it's just.

480
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: That he's like, my families own this paper since, like

481
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, eighteen ninety six or whatever, I'm not

482
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: going to go against the family because I'm a rich guy,

483
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: and that's what we do.

484
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: I think it's it's they're so rich and so these

485
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 2: people have are generations removed from any kind of normal life. Right,

486
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 2: they can't feel fear, right, the only fear they can

487
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 2: feel is the fear that mean old socialists are going

488
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: to take some of their money. That is the only

489
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: thing that stirs any.

490
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 3: Sort of their dolls eyes dead.

491
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 2: Yes, that is how I would describe souls burger black

492
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 2: eyes like a doll's eye.

493
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 3: Someone is coming for your money. That's the only thing

494
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: that can get get our eyes out.

495
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 2: That's all these motherfuckers, right. That's why newspapers should be

496
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 2: a public good funded by taxes. I don't know, it's

497
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: not perfect, there's flaws with that, but it'll you know,

498
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: we've seen how our system works very well over the

499
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 2: course of the Second World War. The Times did it,

500
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: in fact cover the Holocaust, though it is fair to

501
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 2: say not well. One thing that's often to defend the

502
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 2: Times people when they they published around two one hundred

503
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: articles about the mass murder of Jews and undesirable groups

504
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: by the Nazis. Shape you know, that's state that's three

505
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: or four a week leading up to the war years

506
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: and that sounds good, right, you know, Given this, one

507
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: might conclude that Kindra is being unfair, but I don't

508
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: think she is. And I'm going to read a quote

509
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: from the History News Network to elucidate why at the

510
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: end of the war and for decades afterward, Americans claimed

511
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: they did not know about the Holocaust as it was happening.

512
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: How was it possible for so much information to be

513
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 2: available in the mass media, yet simultaneously for the public

514
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: to be ignorant. The reason is that the American media

515
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: in general, in the New York Times in particular, never

516
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: treated the Holocaust as an important news story. From the

517
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: start of the war in Europe to its end nearly

518
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: six years later. The story of the Holocaust made the

519
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: front page made the Times front page only twenty six

520
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: times out of twenty four thousand front page stories, and

521
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: most of these stories referred to the victims as refugees

522
00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: or persecuted minorities. In only six of those stories where

523
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: Jews identified on page one as the primary victims while

524
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: the Holocaust was happening. Out of twenty four thousand front

525
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: page stories during the period of the Holocaust, six times

526
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: were their front page articles that identified the Jews as

527
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: a victim of Nazi violence.

528
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 3: Wow one per million.

529
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, about one per million. Nor did the story

530
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: lead the paper, appearing in the right hand column, reserved

531
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: for the day's most important news, not even when the

532
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 2: concentration camps were liberated at the end of the war.

533
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 2: In addition, the Times intermittently and timidly editorialized about the

534
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,479
Speaker 2: extermination of the Jews, and the paper rarely highlighted it

535
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: in either the week in review or the magazine section. Now,

536
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 2: I'm focusing a lot on The Times here, and my

537
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: focus on them is rooted in the fact that The

538
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: Times was and is dull today our nation's chief paper

539
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: of record, and as a result, we have a lot

540
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: of detail as to how its journalists and editors saw

541
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: the problem of rising Nazi power. Now, I don't think

542
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: that tells the whole story, because there are a lot

543
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: of there. Not only are there a lot of individual

544
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: journalists at the Times who did care about reporting on

545
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: the Holocaust, just as by the way, the Times visual

546
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: investigation desk has done crucial reporting on what's been being

547
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,479
Speaker 2: done in Gaza. Right, you know, there are good people

548
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 2: at the Times, the editors and owners of the paper,

549
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: while the editors are a mixed bag and the ownership

550
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: of the paper is fucking terrible. Right. That's my stance

551
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 2: on the matter. It's also worth noting that again, many

552
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,719
Speaker 2: local US papers, and particularly smaller Jewish papers, did a

553
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: marvelous job of spreading detailed information about the first Nazi crimes. Likewise,

554
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: there were marvelous foreign correspondence in Germany who did dogged

555
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: and courageous work exposing early Nazi atrocities. The problem was

556
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: that for years, influential papers like The Times refused to

557
00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: take their work seriously. The fear was, as always bias.

558
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: One of the best sources on early Nazi violence was

559
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: the Jewish Telegraph Agency, which had been founded by an

560
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: Austrian and provided early evidence of mass violence against German Jews.

561
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: The Times refused to report on its reporting like they

562
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: like they were doing. They refused to do what they

563
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 2: were doing with like German papers right and cover like

564
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 2: what the JTA was saying, because it was not neutral. Right,

565
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: It's a Jewish paper, so it can't neutrally report on

566
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: violence against Jews. So we're not going to cover that

567
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: at all.

568
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 3: But as we talked about in the first episode, nothing

569
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 3: is neutral. That's boy never has neutral point of view

570
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 3: over the other. Yeah.

571
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now they didn't actively, they didn't reject all stories

572
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: from the JTA out of hand. When the agency happened

573
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: to interview a source, the Times considered it credible because

574
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: they were famous in this case Albert Einstein. The Times

575
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 2: was happy to carry a JTA wire story. Now, Einstein

576
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: is one of the most popular public in a lie

577
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: actuals of the early twentieth century. When the JTA asked

578
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: him for his thoughts on the nineteen thirty German elections,

579
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: he stated that the quote Hitler vote is only a

580
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: symptom not necessarily of anti Jewish hatred, but of momentary

581
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: resentment caused by economic misery and unemployment within the ranks

582
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 2: of the German youth. Now Einstein was extremely wrong there, right,

583
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: The Hitler vote was absolutely a symptom of anti Jewish hatred.

584
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 3: Emotionally driven. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

585
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: Now that said, I will note Einstein was a consistent

586
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: opponent of the Nazis, and you can find quotes from

587
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: him that are much more direct and sensible in their

588
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: opposition to Hitler. So I think we can forgive the

589
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: statement from Einstein as a single lapse of judgment, right, Like,

590
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to shit on the man's attitude towards

591
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: the Nazis, but he was wrong in this. And it's

592
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: interesting though that this was the thing the time that

593
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: like the Times chose to take a JTA story. This time,

594
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: when Einstein is saying don't be a The Nazis aren't racist,

595
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: you know. Even as the war years began, the Times

596
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: continued to avoid reportage on attacks by Nazi street gangs

597
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: against Jewish Germans. When the Warsaw Ghetto uprising occurred, the

598
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 2: story was buried on page ten. Even coverage of the

599
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 2: liberation of Auschwitz tended to avoid mentioning that the vast

600
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: majority of victims were Jewish.

601
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: It's just in the leisure In the leisure section, they're like,

602
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 3: don't vacation there right now, but we won't say why.

603
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, don't summer in Auschwitz this year?

604
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jesus.

605
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: This is where things get a little complicated, because it

606
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 2: is probably fair to say that non Jewish victims of

607
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: the Holocaust are forgotten or not sufficiently discussed, due in

608
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: part to an understandable desire to compensate for the poor

609
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: coverage Sulzburger and his colleagues put out during the genocide itself.

610
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: In his Cambridge Press study about the burying the Times

611
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: did of the Holocaust, Laurel Left notes that the primary

612
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: reason Sulzberger refused to change his initial reaction towards reporting

613
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: on Nazi violence against Jews was an unspoken fear that

614
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: he would risk his own position in American society, often

615
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: framed as part of a broader fear that Jewish assimilation

616
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: in the US would be harmed if too much attention

617
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 2: was paid to the suffering of Eastern European Jews under fascism,

618
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: Daniel Johnson writes in an article for commentary dot org.

619
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: Above all, he was wary of any new influx of

620
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: European Jews into the United States. Assimilation, for Sulzberger was

621
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 2: a prize for which he was prepared to let other

622
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: Jews make any sacrifice that's good. Yeah, yeah, just a

623
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: nice little reminder of like what human evil is.

624
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 3: You know.

625
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: It's not just these Nazis wanting to exterminate people. It's

626
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: this guy going like I could help maybe save lives,

627
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: but you know that might endanger me being able to

628
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 2: go to the best parties. So let's just not do that.

629
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: Let's just not cover this, you know.

630
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that maybe the most discouraging thing for

631
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 3: your soul that you can witness is extreme It's like, okay,

632
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 3: extreme violence and cruelty is bad enough, but spectators who

633
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 3: laugh or yeah, treat it like it's fine, and you're

634
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 3: like Damn, the human being can really get dark Jesus.

635
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, when people just aren't concerned, don't care about,

636
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: you know, what's happening, what's being done to people, right,

637
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: Like I this has always been like my frustration talking

638
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 2: to like some of my members, members my family who

639
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 2: supported the Iraq War about like stuff I saw in Iraq,

640
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 2: and like they they they're so bored of it, of

641
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: being taught, of talking about the damage that they helped

642
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: to do. It just absolutely no interest in thinking about

643
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: it and talking about it.

644
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 4: You know.

645
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: That's what the Republican Party has tried to move on to,

646
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 2: being like, you know, fuck the Iraq War, like like

647
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: they weren't the ones who did it, right, you know,

648
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 2: not that they were the only ones who did it.

649
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 2: There's plenty of Democrats who voted for it, but like

650
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: you guys, it was you're a thing, like you don't

651
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 2: get to fucking escape it because you don't want to

652
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: talk about it anymore.

653
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 3: And the ring of their world, as far as those

654
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 3: people are terrorists, is a narrative that's still foundational to

655
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 3: what's going on now.

656
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I yeah, the way in which it's

657
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: interesting to me because like I think I do actually

658
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 2: talk about terrorism in a way that's unbiased, because, like

659
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 2: I'm very sympathetic to the aims of the PKK, which

660
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: is a Kurdish terrorist organization, right the fact that they

661
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 2: have and I'm not supportive of terrorism, but I think

662
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: that oftentimes in history there are groups that find themselves

663
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: resorting to that and their broad aims are still justified. Right.

664
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 2: I feel the same way about the anc right. Nelson

665
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: Mandela was not just tarred as a terrorist because of

666
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 2: a political campaign by the apartheid government. Nelson Mandela went

667
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: into hiding and established the arm wing of the A

668
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 2: and C, which bombed civilians, right like he was a terrorist.

669
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 2: You know, like terrorism, you can you can objectively say

670
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 2: all of these things are terrorism, and that doesn't mean

671
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: that like you support it when the cause is good.

672
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: It just means that you acknowledge there are terrorists sometimes

673
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 2: whose overall cause is justified. It's like looking at the IRA,

674
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 2: do I think, like, do I think it was evil

675
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: to like throw a bomb in a pub? Yeah, that

676
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: is evil. It's bad to bomb a pub, But that

677
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: doesn't mean the overall fight was evil, right, like you

678
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: It's just everyone everyone agrees that terrorism is fine in

679
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: certain circumstances. I don't see any moral difference.

680
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 3: And they're like, this is the good kind. So we

681
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 3: picked a different word because this is the approved form

682
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: of domestic terrorism. We're okay with.

683
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, the the bombing of Western Europe by the Allies

684
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: during World War Two was one of the largest acts

685
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: of terrorism in history. It is the deliberate targeting of

686
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: civilians to frighten them and break their will. There's no

687
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: other way to describe it but terrorism. That's what it

688
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: fucking was, right, And you know, I would argue that,

689
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 2: like it actually didn't work. You can't really bomb people's

690
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 2: will to fight away. But I don't think actually in

691
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: World War Two we were wrong to have tried it

692
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: for a period of time because the situation was fucking

693
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 2: desperate and you're going to you're going to try everything

694
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 2: at that point, right, Like, it's just how people react

695
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: in the situations like this. Everyone does it, Every side

696
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: does it. I think that's actually reporting on it objectively,

697
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: you know. But the tie.

698
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: Remember you were very pro Maquis and anti Kardassian when that.

699
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: I am extremely supportive of Maki a do I like

700
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: chacote No as an actor. I dislike it. Sure, yeah,

701
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 2: I look, I support uh insurgent attacks against Cardassian infrastructure

702
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: and I always have. Yeah, but the falthy carties yeah, whoa, whoa, Michael,

703
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 2: we don't got to get all Miles O'Brien in here.

704
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: Yes, let's go down this tangent.

705
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: Speaking of Miles O'Brien, A lot of people would argue

706
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 2: the Miles O'Brien of physics was Albert Einstein, and Einstein

707
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: reached out to Sulzberger to try to help him, you know,

708
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 2: kind of after this point. He reaches out to Sulzburg

709
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: at one point because there's a Berlin theater critic named

710
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 2: Alfred Kerherr who is obviously carries a Jewish Man, and

711
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 2: the Nazis want him dead. They have a real thing

712
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: against critics. So Einstein reaches out to Sulzburgers with like, hey,

713
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 2: you have a lot of poll and power. Can you

714
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,439
Speaker 2: help us get this guy out of Germany and into

715
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 2: the United States so he doesn't get murdered, And Solsburger

716
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:01,399
Speaker 2: yells at Einstein. He says, I am disassociated from any

717
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: movement which springs from the oppression of Jews in Germany.

718
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: Only in this way can the unprejudiced and unbiased portion

719
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: of the Times be understood. What an insane thing to say,

720
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: I am. I will refuse to pay attention to the

721
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 2: oppression of Jews in Germany because that's the only way

722
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 2: that we can be unbiased is this isn't happening.

723
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 3: That's the neutral stance is pretend.

724
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: It's not happening.

725
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 3: You know. Wow.

726
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: So that statement is particularly ironic when we return again

727
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 2: to how The Times has recently covered protests against the

728
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 2: genocide and Gaza. I read an article recently on drop

729
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 2: site news by Arvind Dilawar, a freelance journalist who had

730
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: worked for The Times, reporting on an article about an

731
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: anti Zionist protest in New Jersey. The precise focus of

732
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: the protest was Israeli realtors holding an event to auction

733
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: off a legally seized Palestinian land arvand writes quote amid

734
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: Israel's ongoing genocide and the Gaza strip. The Times article

735
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: described the protest as contributing to escalating fear intention in

736
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 2: the otherwise peaceable t Neck as a pivotal example of

737
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: alleged anti Semitic activity in the area. My co author

738
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: John Leland, a Time staff reporter quoted township council member

739
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 2: Hillary Goldberg, who claimed her home had been broken into

740
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: as part of a string of abuse in response to

741
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 2: her vocal support of Israel and her Jewish background. I

742
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 2: have been threatened. I had a box truck with my

743
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,959
Speaker 2: picture on it and the words liar, liar, driven around town.

744
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: My house has been broken into. I have received anti

745
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 2: Semitic messages, Goldberg told Leland, adding I have never felt

746
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 2: so afraid to be Jewish as now. And hey, look,

747
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: if protests had been were corresponding to surges in violence

748
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: towards Jewish people, you know that's worth reporting. But in

749
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: this case, the claim by Hillary is, so far as

750
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: we can tell, untrue. Arvind filed a record's request, and

751
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 2: the records he received from the police showed that police

752
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 2: concluded no break d was attempted at her property, right

753
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 2: that no crime at all had been attempted against Goldberg.

754
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: They had found no evidence of it. There were no

755
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 2: signs of forced entry. She calls them a dozen times

756
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: for follow up checks on her home, and at no

757
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 2: point do the police find anything indicating her claims were true.

758
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: Arvind goes on to write, believing a correction to the

759
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: time story was an order, or at least an update

760
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 2: to give readers a fuller picture. I shared the police

761
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 2: reports with Leland, who told me he had already gotten

762
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: them and despite the explicit contradictions, no correction would be issued.

763
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 2: When presented with the police reports, Management at the Times

764
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: also declined to reconcile them with its coverage. Instead, Managing

765
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 2: director of external Communications, Charlie Stadelander said in a statement

766
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 2: that the article was thoroughly reported, fact checked and edited

767
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: and we stand behind its publication. Goldberg did not respond

768
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 2: to multiple requests for comment.

769
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 3: The cops are like there was a truck going around

770
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 3: her house with her face that said truth teller truth. Yeah,

771
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 3: everything's the opposite of what you're saying it.

772
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: Is yea, and look again, I don't want to pretend. Obviously,

773
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: there has been a surge in anti Semitism, and some

774
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 2: of it is tied. I don't blame the fact that

775
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: people are protesting against a genocide for it, but those

776
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 2: protests have provided cover for Nazis. Right. You can find

777
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: evidence of that, and there is evidence that likes aspects

778
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 2: of like far right propag anti Jewish propaganda have been

779
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 2: adopted by some.

780
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: Folks, they're like anything to say antiges.

781
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 2: Yes, of course, I yeah, exactly. That is a thing

782
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 2: that happens. It's a thing you have to guard against happening, right,

783
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: It's a thing you have to be aware of. But

784
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: The Times is deliberately refusing to like correct their reporting.

785
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 2: That makes the problem look much worse than it is.

786
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: And it's because their narrative that they want to portray

787
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 2: about these protests is helped by that inaccurate reporting, right,

788
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: And that's to them neutrality cool stuff. Back to the

789
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: nineteen thirties over in France, excellent work was done La Humanity,

790
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: the paper of the French Communist Party, which wrote unsparingly

791
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: about Nazi violence towards Jews and other targeted groups. This

792
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 2: reporting was ignored by the American press because it was

793
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 2: a communist paper. Now there's a great book about all this, Berlin,

794
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty three, written by French media critic Daniel Schneiderman.

795
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: I found an interview with Schneiderman in The New Yorker

796
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: for back in twenty nineteen that contains a fascinating quote

797
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 2: on what he called activist journalism, which he argues was

798
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: the only journalism that responded ethically to the rise of fascism.

799
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 2: Activist journalism, Schneidermann writes, journalism that subordinates the quest for

800
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 2: truth to the quest for a truth that is useful

801
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 2: to its cause is the only journalism that today doesn't

802
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 2: have to feel ashamed about what it produced. Everything reasonable, scrupulous, balanced,

803
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 2: in my opinion, contributed to lulling the crowd to sleep.

804
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: If I had been a reader at the time, though,

805
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 2: I probably would have quickly stopped reading after a few days,

806
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: dissuaded by the bludgeting. So Schneiderman saying, like, the only

807
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 2: only these activist papers that had a clear angle angle

808
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 2: are the ones who accurately described the danger of the Nazis.

809
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: But I think if I had been reading them at

810
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: the time, I wouldn't have paid much attention because it's

811
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 2: just kind of exhausting to get that sort of ideological bludgeting.

812
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 2: And I find this compelling. I think it's actually kind

813
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: of courageous that he admits that, right, that's an evidence

814
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 2: of an honest thinker who was like, I can see

815
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 2: that these people were the only ones who did the

816
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: right thing, and I don't think I would have listened

817
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 2: to them at the time. I actually respect being able

818
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 2: to say that about yourself quite a lot.

819
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely bums me out though through the climate

820
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 3: change lens, because a similar analog would be we're gonna die,

821
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: We're all gonna die, We're all gonna die, and eventually

822
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 3: you're like, look, I know, but I'm sick of hearing it.

823
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 3: It's really depressed they are, though, Or did you not

824
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 3: like this? This really is that level of problem?

825
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh. Yeah, Again, I like Schneiderman a lot

826
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: because he's he's kind of able to acknowledge that about

827
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 2: himself and all of us, like you, like, no matter

828
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: what you think, you do this about something you kind

829
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 2: of have to to survive, right, But that's part of

830
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: where these guys, how these guys thrive, these monsters thrive. Yeah,

831
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 2: now it is uh, you know, I find this all

832
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 2: especially worth pointing out because the next period in Sophie,

833
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 2: did we do a second ad break? Nope? You know

834
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: what the next period for all of us, Michael is

835
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 2: going to be to cut to ads. So have a

836
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 2: little have a little ad, you know, shovel some ads

837
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 2: into your face, you know, ads are as a great writer.

838
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 2: William Shakespeare once said the oatmeal of art, So enjoy

839
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: some oatmeal while we get ready to do more art.

840
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 2: We're back, Michael Maestro sway, are your fingers ready to

841
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: tap the ivories of talking about.

842
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 3: My keyboard as easily? Google William Shakespeare oatmeal and try

843
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 3: to figure out what the fuck that was about.

844
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like to think he knew about oatmeal because

845
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 2: as a British person.

846
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 3: Teeth, why not oatmeal? Yeah?

847
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 2: Did he quin crocodile?

848
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 3: He did?

849
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: What a cool guy?

850
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, Billy shakes where I'm sure it's based on a

851
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 3: Greek root or something, but I like to think that

852
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 3: he's just saw one and he's like.

853
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a fucking crocodile. It is one of those

854
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: you know, there's some animals like you look at a

855
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: fucking uh a marmoset, right, and like that it's not

856
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 2: obviously a marmoset. Other names could have worked for a marmoset.

857
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: You'll get a crocodile and you're like, yeah, that's a

858
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 2: fucking crocodile.

859
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 3: Where you're like, you are a top That is totally Yeah.

860
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: For sure. Every Todd I've seen has been a Todd anyway.

861
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: So the next period of American journalism regarding the fascists,

862
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: you know, the one that occurred from the late thirties

863
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 2: up to the start of the war. Things got a

864
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 2: little better, you know, quite a bit better by the end.

865
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: The rapid change in American attitudes towards isolationism in World

866
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: War Two is some evidence of this. But we also

867
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: see it in the response of the populace and the

868
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 2: mainstream media to domestic fascist groups like the Silver Shirts

869
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 2: and the German American bund. Here, at least, the outright

870
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: sympathy of the Italian liberal press and the frightened tremulousness

871
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 2: of the Weimar media were less present. When the Booned

872
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: famously rallied in Madison Square Garden in nineteen thirty nine.

873
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: Reporters on scene for Booned clashes with anti fascists wrote

874
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 2: articles with titles like Nazi advocacy of Roosevelt's death charged

875
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: and seven are injured at Nazi rally and that's like,

876
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: you know good. In an article several days after the rally,

877
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 2: even The Times argued that Bundists were quote determined to

878
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: destroy our democracy. The paper's editor later released a statement

879
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 2: saying the boone went to set up an American Hitler,

880
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 2: and this the Times was at least following in the

881
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 2: footsteps of the American people, who by this point had

882
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 2: started taking the warnings of reporters who were quite biased

883
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 2: against Nazis seriously. And I might argue that they only,

884
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 2: you know, the Times only jumps on the bandwagon of

885
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: doing that when it becomes clear that there are Nazis

886
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 2: in the US who might threaten them even more than

887
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: being sympathetic to Jews in Germany would. As US entry

888
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 2: to World War Two grew closer, the most influential reporting

889
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: on the Nazis came not from the unbiased, monklike reporters

890
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: valued by AUX but from foreign correspondents like William Schier

891
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 2: and Dorothy Thompson. Thompson's most influential article, and today this

892
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 2: is one of the most influential things anyone will ever

893
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,919
Speaker 2: write about Fascism, was published in August of nineteen forty

894
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 2: one for Harper's Me magazine. It had the evocative title

895
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 2: Who Goes Nazi? And, rather than purporting to be even

896
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 2: handed journalism, it presents the reader with a series of

897
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: fictional characters from various backgrounds, all conversing at a dinner

898
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 2: party and it asks the reader to predict which ones

899
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 2: might go Nazi. I take some enjoyment in the fact

900
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 2: that Thompson included a character in her article who was

901
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 2: almost certainly based on mister Soulsberger. Right on the head

902
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: editor at the Times quote, mister Jay over there is

903
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 2: a Jew. Mister Jay is a very important man. He

904
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 2: is immensely rich. He has made a fortune through a

905
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 2: dozen directorates in various companies, through a fabulous marriage, through

906
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 2: a speculative flare, and through a native gift for money

907
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: and a native love of power. He is intelligent and arrogant.

908
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 2: He seldom associates with Jews. He deploys any mention of

909
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: the Jewish question. He believes that Hitler should not be

910
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: judged from the standpoint of anti Semitism. He thinks that

911
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 2: the Jews should be reserved on all political questions. He

912
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: considers Roosevelt an enemy of business. He thinks it was

913
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: a serious blow to the Jews that Frankfurter should have

914
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 2: been appointed to the Supreme Court. The saturnine mister c

915
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: the real Nazi in the room, engages him in a

916
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 2: flatteringly attentive conversation. Mister Jay agrees with mister C. Holy,

917
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 2: mister J is definitely attracted by mister C. He goes

918
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 2: out of his way to ask his name. They have

919
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 2: never met before. A very intelligent man, he says. And

920
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 2: Thompson's article today still draws a lot of hatred from

921
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 2: conservatives who find it very unfair and unbiased. And it

922
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 2: was Dorothy understood that fairness and objectivity don't fight fascism.

923
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 2: There's a good chance her pros will make you feel uncomfortable,

924
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 2: and it ought to. But I promise if you read

925
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 2: her article, you will at least feel something. Now, I'm

926
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,760
Speaker 2: not half the writer Dorothy was, so rather than attempt

927
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: to wrap this piece up myself, Michael, I'm going to

928
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 2: leave you with one last quote from that essay. It's fun,

929
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: a Macabs sort of fun, this parlor game of who

930
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 2: goes Nazi? And it simplifies things asking the question in

931
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 2: regard to specific personalities. Kind, good, happy, gentlemanly, secure people

932
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,439
Speaker 2: never go Nazi. They may be the gentle philosopher whose

933
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 2: name is in the blue book or bill from City

934
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 2: College to whom democracy gave a chance to design airplanes.

935
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 2: You'll never make Nazis out of them. But the frustrated

936
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 2: and humiliated intellectual, the rich and scared speculator, the spoiled son,

937
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 2: the labor tyrant, the fellow who has achieved success by

938
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 2: smelling out the wind of success. They would all go

939
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 2: Nazi in a crisis. Believe me, nice people don't go Nazi.

940
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 2: Their race, color, creed, or social condition is not the criterion.

941
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 2: It is something in them. Those who haven't anything in

942
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 2: them to tell them what they like and what they don't,

943
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: whether it is breeding or happiness, or wisdom or a

944
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 2: code however old fashion or however modern, go Nazi. It's

945
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: an amusing game. Try it at the next big party

946
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 2: you go to.

947
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, accuse everyone, you did say, agree earth, Yeah. I

948
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 3: think it gets at the base of something that people

949
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,919
Speaker 3: are wielding to great effect right now, which is it's

950
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 3: weird to hate people for no reason. They're weird little guys.

951
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, And I think that recognition that, like, you

952
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,839
Speaker 2: become a Nazi when there's nothing inside you but the

953
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 2: love of and need for wealth and power, right when

954
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 2: that's the only thing you've got. That's that like, it's

955
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: fundamentally a product of insecurity. And so the way to

956
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 2: fight these people, as we're starting to see with like

957
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: vance here is to make them feel more insecure, right

958
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 2: when you when you frame them, when you when you

959
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 2: either talk of them as like, well, these are just

960
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 2: common sult of the earth people with legitimate grievances, or

961
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,280
Speaker 2: when you do what I think a lot of liberals

962
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 2: started to do with Trump, which is why you've got

963
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: this weird chunk of people who like, don't think he

964
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 2: could have been shot just like honestly as part of

965
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: an assassination attempt. You know, people treat them like almost

966
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 2: a supernatural enemy, right, like they're you know, they're they're

967
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 2: this kind of like uh like evil demonic force as

968
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 2: opposed to no, these are sad, insecure, sick little weirdos, right,

969
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 2: and when you when you shine that light on them,

970
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 2: when you make that clear. However you do it, if

971
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 2: you do it through just objective reporting, which you can do,

972
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 2: or if you do it through satire, right, whatever you

973
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: have to do, you have to find their points of

974
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 2: insecurity and stick a thumb in them, right. That is

975
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 2: how you That is how you fight these people without

976
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: pulling out guns. Right if you want to avoid that,

977
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 2: and I sure do, that's how you do it.

978
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 3: That's how you get kicked out of Tenacious Da.

979
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, god.

980
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 3: It is. It sucks. It's such a oh bro cod

981
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 3: come on man, man.

982
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah no, but I don't know who wouldn't who wouldn't

983
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: sacrifice a thirty year friendship for the bliss that is

984
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: getting to be in the what's that fucking video game

985
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 2: movie that Jack Black's about to be in?

986
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 3: Borderlands?

987
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 2: Border Lands?

988
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 3: Why God considered fucking terrible? There's already known.

989
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, nothing more valuable than getting to

990
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 2: be in the Borderlance movie.

991
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 3: Because of an off the cuff joke that no offense.

992
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 3: Literally everyone thought in their head, like there's no it's whatever. Anyway, Yeah,

993
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 3: I think it speaks to what we're saying in terms of, yes,

994
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 3: in a vacuum, violence is always shocking and feels unnatural

995
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,439
Speaker 3: in a way. But remember that the one context where

996
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 3: it kind of makes sense is like, yeah, but if

997
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 3: someone's been beating the shit out of you for eight hours, like,

998
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 3: there's a point, there's a point.

999
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 2: There's there's a point, right, uh. And that point was

1000
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 2: for us in the political sense of like getting dirty.

1001
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: That point was like six years ago, like six to

1002
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 2: eight years ago.

1003
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 3: And all right, we've held ourselves back long enough.

1004
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, Michael, speaking of fighting back, you know what,

1005
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 2: you can fight back against your boredom by reading Michael's novel.

1006
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 2: That's right, will make you entertained and happy.

1007
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 3: It's true I plugged it at the top, but I'll

1008
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,239
Speaker 3: mention again. It's called The Climb. You can get a

1009
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 3: free sample by checking out the small Beans podcast feed,

1010
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 3: or check out the small Beans Patreon page and click

1011
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:41,439
Speaker 3: the shop tab. If you end up wanting the whole thing,

1012
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 3: it's an audiobook and a book book. You can get

1013
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 3: either flavor. Now, anyway, we got thank you so much.

1014
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: We got two things to plug at the end here.

1015
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 2: Robert, Yeah, do it so.

1016
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,439
Speaker 1: I'll do the first one if you do the second one.

1017
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 3: Deal. Okay, it's clearly forgot the plug, sohi, no.

1018
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: I remember by the time we get there. I think

1019
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 1: the first one is we have a new podcast that

1020
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: cools on media, hosted by Molly Conger. It's called Weird

1021
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 1: Little Guys and shows like that relate to episodes like this.

1022
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 3: I Stell's plugged it earlier. If I know.

1023
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 1: I caught that and I was like, wow, swam really

1024
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: really calling it good.

1025
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 3: I'm loving it so far.

1026
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:31,439
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. Molly's amazing. And the other thing, Robert is.

1027
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 2: What is the other thing? Sophie, I don't know.

1028
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: I'm looking and to Robert and we go, I'm looking

1029
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 1: at you. Other people can look at.

1030
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 2: You, you know what, Sophie, let me explain to you.

1031
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: So about like one hundred and fifty or so years ago,

1032
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 2: some I'm guessing they were frenchmen figured out that if

1033
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 2: you like, put a hole in a box and run

1034
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 2: light through it, you can kind of get images to

1035
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 2: print essentially onto pieces of paper.

1036
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 1: Right.

1037
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 2: This led to the creation of what we're called photographs

1038
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 2: and cameras, and eventually people recognize that if you take

1039
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 2: a lot of these still images and you run them

1040
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: in sequence, you can create the illusion of movement. And

1041
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 2: now we at cool Zone have joined this glorious tradition

1042
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 2: by pivoting to video ourselves, because that's never.

1043
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: Bad YouTube dot com slash at behind the.

1044
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 3: Back, masterfully stretched.

1045
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Michael, thank you, and thank you.

1046
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: That's it. That's the episode, bye, is it? I mean,

1047
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 1: do you have anything else you'd like to add?

1048
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: Michael, It's nice to talk No, I was just saying

1049
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 2: it's nice to talk to you. That's what I want

1050
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 2: to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah did you?

1051
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 3: Did you?

1052
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 2: The recent news came out that Tim Walls is a

1053
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 2: second Dreamcast player. I think this might be what cinches

1054
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 2: the election.

1055
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 3: You know, can we do another hour on that perfect blue.

1056
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: And he's a monster.

1057
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 3: Oh we have different attitudes, so good dude.

1058
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 2: I want to say Crazy Taxi was on the Dreamcast.

1059
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 3: One of the launch titles. I believe Dreamcast Day.

1060
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 2: It was really the refer yeah, the precursor to that

1061
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 2: good GTA three energy.

1062
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 3: Yeah for real. I was just thinking about Crazy Taxi.

1063
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 2: And there was the Simpsons rip off of Crazy tax

1064
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 2: It was pretty good too. Hit and Run, Yeah, hit

1065
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 2: and Run, great game anyway, think about the Simpsons. Now,

1066
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 2: folks to wear some screen huh you? Well bye.

1067
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1068
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 4: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1069
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,919
Speaker 4: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1070
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

1071
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 2: Eight