Speaker 1: Hi, guys, It's I Do Part two and I am
Speaker 1: one of your celebrity mentors, Jen Fessler, and today I
Speaker 1: am so weak and excited because normally I'm talking with
Speaker 1: I'm talking. We usually talk to like celebrities on the show.
Speaker 1: This celebrity is actually none other than my sister, Robin Gutterman.
Speaker 1: And she's not really a celebrity, but she's a celebrity
Speaker 1: to us.
Speaker 2: Hi, Robbie, Hi, Jenny. So happy to be here.
Speaker 1: Oh, I am thrilled to have you. And like most people,
Speaker 1: you guys, though, she has gone into Robin's rather unique story.
Speaker 1: So firstly, a little bit about I guess just us.
Speaker 1: So you guys may think that Robin is the older one,
Speaker 1: just based on looks, but I'm actually fourteen months older
Speaker 1: than my sister. Yes, and she's always been perfect, beautiful,
Speaker 1: little blonde. Not sure one of you, It is so true.
Speaker 1: And uh, but Robin and I are as we've gotten older.
Speaker 1: I mean we had our fights right over the years,
Speaker 1: you did. There's a time actually with your second husband,
Speaker 1: who we can remain nameless, but where we didn't speak
Speaker 1: for like over a year, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we did and get along during that relationship
Speaker 2: I think you aren't happy with that relationship at all,
Speaker 2: and it was a tough one for you to watch.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't really matter when it comes to sisters.
Speaker 1: You know, we're Robin and I are very very close.
Speaker 1: So we're going to get into all things Robin's love life.
Speaker 1: So Robbie, let's just like, you know, this show is
Speaker 1: about love the second time around. And in our family,
Speaker 1: a lot of times there's a second time around, there's
Speaker 1: the third time around, there's the fourth time around. Our
Speaker 1: parents have been married and divorced. I don't know you
Speaker 1: want to count. I mean I think seven six or
Speaker 1: seven come between them? Yes, yes for mom, Yes, well
Speaker 1: now add me in and now yes yes.
Speaker 2: And you're the only one who's been on the first Yeah.
Speaker 1: But you know what, I host the show because I'm
Speaker 1: also kind of on my part two in the sense
Speaker 1: that we were separated for a year and a half
Speaker 1: and things definitely changed after that. But for once, you'll
Speaker 1: be happy to hear Robin, it's not about me, all right,
Speaker 1: So let's just like, you know, talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about let's go one marriage at a time. So Robin
Speaker 1: has been married, Oh you tell everybody.
Speaker 2: I've actually been married three times.
Speaker 1: Married three times, divorced three times. So but we'll get
Speaker 1: you know, let's start with your first marriage. Tell us
Speaker 1: a little bit about how you met your first husband,
Speaker 1: what that was like, what you think happened there, how
Speaker 1: that ended in.
Speaker 2: My first husband I met in college in Austin and
Speaker 2: we were best friends. Our personalities were very similar. We
Speaker 2: just we were kind of the partiers and we had
Speaker 2: a little group of partiers and we were just friends.
Speaker 2: But I started to like him, and I was actually
Speaker 2: dating someone at the time, and I started to like him,
Speaker 2: and I moved to New York after college, and he
Speaker 2: moved back to Miami, and we remained friends, and he
Speaker 2: started coming for business to New York and we ended
Speaker 2: up going out one night and that was it. We
Speaker 2: were dating long distance for a year. I think it
Speaker 2: was a little over a year, and then he basically said,
Speaker 2: either you need to move to Miami or you know,
Speaker 2: this is over, because he didn't want to continue with
Speaker 2: the long distance. All right, why not? I was living
Speaker 2: in New York City at the time, waiting tables, had
Speaker 2: just finished getting my graduate degree, and so I moved
Speaker 2: and you know it, he was my best friend, the
Speaker 2: person that I laugh with. I don't know if I
Speaker 2: ever felt a crazy in love spark. I felt a
Speaker 2: you'd be the best father. You have a phenomenal family,
Speaker 2: and we were best friends. And he was Jewish. I
Speaker 2: mean he kind of checked all the boxes, right, he
Speaker 2: was good looking, tall.
Speaker 1: We all loved him.
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, everyone loved him.
Speaker 1: Everyone our family loved him.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean he's just good people. Like, there's nothing
Speaker 2: that I can really say in a negative way about
Speaker 2: who he is as a person.
Speaker 1: Do you think do you think that when you were
Speaker 1: walking down the aisle, did you know it was wrong?
Speaker 1: Like I think about how Mamma always says that when
Speaker 1: she was walking down the aisle with Dad, she knew
Speaker 1: it was wrong, and Grandma had no problem telling her
Speaker 1: she was making a mistake.
Speaker 2: I think I got emotional before I walked down the
Speaker 2: aisle because my friend was actually getting together with a
Speaker 2: guy I used to date on the day of my wedding,
Speaker 2: and I had like a little tinge left of feeling
Speaker 2: for him. So I was walking down the aisle and
Speaker 2: that was the thing I was thinking about, you know, like,
Speaker 2: f you you're sitting here dating someone I dated I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know with our family what
Speaker 2: I thought I was supposed to feel or have. I
Speaker 2: just thought that he was going to be just a
Speaker 2: great man to be with, you know, he was just
Speaker 2: going to be He was smart, ambitious, you know, had
Speaker 2: a business degree. I mean, he checked he checked the boxes,
Speaker 2: and he was friends and that's just I just thought
Speaker 2: that it was going to be him.
Speaker 1: So you guys were married. How many years was it.
Speaker 1: I think it was seven when you had Jake and Danielle.
Speaker 1: And what do you think happened?
Speaker 2: Well, we ended up there was a period of time where,
Speaker 2: you know most men, he was the bread winner for
Speaker 2: a minute, and he had a business with his parents,
Speaker 2: and they shut down his business in Miami, and so
Speaker 2: I think he fell into quite a bit of a depression.
Speaker 2: It was the only thing that he had really known.
Speaker 2: They were in the toy business, and so I think
Speaker 2: it was really really difficult for him after that. And
Speaker 2: at the same time, I had decided I wanted to
Speaker 2: get a second master's degree, so I was looking at
Speaker 2: doing that, and then I got an opportunity in Boca.
Speaker 2: We were living in Weston at the time. I got
Speaker 2: an opportunity in Boca to run a treatment center, and
Speaker 2: so my salary went.
Speaker 1: Up because she would just just tell the people. So
Speaker 1: Robin is a therapist, yes, and was specializing in the
Speaker 1: time in drug and alcohol.
Speaker 2: Yeah, an addiction addiction. So I had gotten an opportunity
Speaker 2: to run a treatment center, a big treatment center in Boca,
Speaker 2: and so my career was kind of going up up,
Speaker 2: and he could not find the right job for him
Speaker 2: at all, and he was very depressed. He was kind
Speaker 2: of became a stay at home dad. He was the
Speaker 2: one taking the kids to school and picking them up,
Speaker 2: and he was basically in his underwear every day on
Speaker 2: a laptop, trying to create business in the same field.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't working out, and my life was crazy.
Speaker 2: I was driving an hour back and forth from Boca
Speaker 2: to Weston every single day, leaving early in the morning,
Speaker 2: getting home late. And I don't think that helped our
Speaker 2: marriage at all. There was no nurturing going on in
Speaker 2: the marriage. It was really just about the kids and
Speaker 2: work at that point in time. And then, if I'd
Speaker 2: be brutally honest about it all, I ended up meeting
Speaker 2: someone while I was working at the rehab and ended
Speaker 2: up having an affair and he found out about it.
Speaker 1: When you look back on that, do you word do
Speaker 1: you think it without if you hadn't had an affair,
Speaker 1: do you think you guys would still be married?
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny people ask me that all the time.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, when I talked to the kids,
Speaker 2: they say, absolutely not. We wouldn't have. But there was nothing.
Speaker 2: He is an awesome person, you know, as a whole person.
Speaker 2: He's a good person. I don't always think he was
Speaker 2: the best parent, but he is. He was a good husband,
Speaker 2: and he was a good friend. And I can't say
Speaker 2: anything negative. I just think I was never really in
Speaker 2: love with him, and I found someone that I became
Speaker 2: head over heels with and unfortunately he found out about it.
Speaker 1: We tried to make it, and he also, right, you
Speaker 1: guys tried and he didn't want it to end. I
Speaker 1: remember him saying to me back then. I think I
Speaker 1: said to him at one point his name is, well, okay,
Speaker 1: we're not going to say his name. Actually, like you
Speaker 1: gotta you should you should go. This is not because
Speaker 1: I knew that you were. You had checked out the marriage, right, I.
Speaker 2: Had definitely checked out. I would probably say, talking about addiction.
Speaker 2: I came into this almost obsessive addicted state with the
Speaker 2: person that I was seeing at the time, and it
Speaker 2: was a lot. It was a lot things that happened.
Speaker 2: We tried to go to couples counseling, and you know,
Speaker 2: of course, the contingency was I could never talk to
Speaker 2: this guy again, see him again, whatever it was. And
Speaker 2: I knew why I was doing couples counseling. I was
Speaker 2: not going to stop. I had no doubt in my mind.
Speaker 2: I thought maybe I could go to counseling and the
Speaker 2: counseling would put my head back in the right direction. Right,
Speaker 2: your family, your kids, all the things that people talk
Speaker 2: to me about on a daily basis, right, their priorities,
Speaker 2: their work, their family, you know, their home, all of
Speaker 2: those things. And people don't get divorced for that reason
Speaker 2: most of the time. In my profession and now I
Speaker 2: work as a marriage therapist, which is the most hilarious,
Speaker 2: but at this point that's what I hear about. People
Speaker 2: don't want to get divorced because they don't want to
Speaker 2: mess up the kids and their of what would happen
Speaker 2: to them. I didn't have any of that fear of
Speaker 2: what was going to happen to my kids. I knew
Speaker 2: I was a great mom, but I figured give it
Speaker 2: a shot, maybe something in me would change with the counseling.
Speaker 1: But I know, all these years, all these years later,
Speaker 1: you've said to me, and it always sticks with me.
Speaker 1: You always say, like, how well, you don't really get
Speaker 1: jealous of me, and I don't get jealous of you.
Speaker 2: There's one thing I'm jealous of you for Jeff Fessler.
Speaker 1: Jeff Fessler, not Jeff Besler per se, my marriage. Correct,
Speaker 1: because you have said to me right like like that.
Speaker 1: You I guess at the time when we came from
Speaker 1: so much divorce, even when when I was separated, I
Speaker 1: wasn't I just thought that's how the world worked. I
Speaker 1: wasn't really that worried about my kids. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: worried about them, of course, It's natural to be. And
Speaker 1: then when I saw how sad they were, Like they
Speaker 1: would go with Jeff away for a weekend or he
Speaker 1: would take them and they would come back distraught. And
Speaker 1: I don't think, well, actually when we would leave, when
Speaker 1: we would we would I would leave Dad. I was
Speaker 1: we had that sad. But the thing is I didn't
Speaker 1: foresee it to me. Divorce is just that's what people do,
Speaker 1: you know. Then all of a sudden, I was like,
Speaker 1: wait a second, yeah, and I was sick. The kid
Speaker 1: thing was brutal.
Speaker 2: Your kids were older, though, yeah, right, my kids were
Speaker 2: three and four years old. I don't even think the
Speaker 2: only conversation, the only thing they remember, which Jake likes
Speaker 2: to tell me my twenty seven year old that the
Speaker 2: only thing he remembers about us living together was the
Speaker 2: day that we sat them down and told them we
Speaker 2: were getting divorced. Now my son, my son doesn't remember
Speaker 2: what he did yesterday, but but okay, yeah, that's what
Speaker 2: he says.
Speaker 1: I remember telling my kids that day. I remember all
Speaker 1: of that. I remember Rachel saying to me, what about
Speaker 1: all our traditions? What about what about going to Rachel?
Speaker 1: I know, and I'm sick even saying it out loud.
Speaker 1: I want to throw up. But I guess I would
Speaker 1: just talking about it because weighing it now, you know,
Speaker 1: and knowing that you feel that way, and you didn't
Speaker 1: realize you were going to feel that way maybe at
Speaker 1: the time, just like I don't think I realized how
Speaker 1: hard it was going to be watching my kids deal
Speaker 1: with it but anyway, But would you do it differently?
Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't do it differently. But just as you
Speaker 2: had started saying the moments that we're like at Thanksgiving, right,
Speaker 2: because no one in our family is divorced except for me.
Speaker 1: And it's weird because I always thought to think of
Speaker 1: I always think everyone's divorced, but.
Speaker 2: Of our kids, of our all of us, right, the kids, Yeah,
Speaker 2: all the I'm the only one divorced. So when you
Speaker 2: guys are preparing things and fun things are coming up
Speaker 2: and making family memories, I'm making them. But they're the
Speaker 2: connection that you guys have right with your children together,
Speaker 2: That bond, I guess is what I always say to you.
Speaker 1: I don't have that.
Speaker 2: I don't have that, and that's definitely sad for me.
Speaker 1: That makes me sad. I just want to cry.
Speaker 2: Everything makes you want to cross. I mean, if I
Speaker 2: was to go back, no, I wouldn't change it, do
Speaker 2: I feel. Listen, the kids know about the affair. I
Speaker 2: was never dishonest with my children when they were old
Speaker 2: enough to know. Marriages though, don't die from an affair.
Speaker 2: They die from the things that led up to the
Speaker 2: affair that you didn't deal with and of course, the
Speaker 2: betrayal from the affair hits differently than other things that
Speaker 2: are problematic in a marriage.
Speaker 1: But it's so funny. While you're saying this, I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: I wanted you to come on to tell your story
Speaker 1: and we could just spend a whole session because you're
Speaker 1: you're a marriage counselor like that whole part of it.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, you know what I was telling Heather,
Speaker 1: my producer. I got to have my sister on. She's
Speaker 1: been through it, not at all thinking but it's different.
Speaker 1: This is personal, this is your stuff. That's you know,
Speaker 1: a different discussion.
Speaker 2: It's personal, but it's also you know, interesting that I
Speaker 2: ended up doing this right because this is where I
Speaker 2: feel probably the most connected with my client and my
Speaker 2: ability to jump in and understand where they're at.
Speaker 1: So I was going to ask you, like, after the divorce,
Speaker 1: what was dating like? And of course now I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: there wasn't dating. You were in a relationship, and that's
Speaker 1: what you tell our listeners a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: That's the one that I would probably say in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways, I end up regretting emotionally.
Speaker 1: For sure, you got married again.
Speaker 2: We did, and I guess for some reason that made
Speaker 2: my ex husband, my first husband, actually feel better. He
Speaker 2: said that to me once, that I didn't just have
Speaker 2: an affair and that was it. I ended up getting
Speaker 2: married to the guy that I divorced him like it.
Speaker 1: Was more like it was more important. You didn't just
Speaker 1: give up on the marriage for ruffling. Right.
Speaker 2: He was a very different person than I had probably
Speaker 2: ever met before I met him.
Speaker 1: He was exactly like your father. I don't know what
Speaker 1: you're talking about.
Speaker 2: I met him when I was working at the rehab. Yes,
Speaker 2: they both have narcissistic traits, but at the time, right
Speaker 2: one who gets suckered by someone who has narcissism. He
Speaker 2: was the most charming person in the room. He would
Speaker 2: walk in and command attention. He had gone through it.
Speaker 2: He was an addict in recovery, and right into recovery,
Speaker 2: he had opened up a halfway house. He came from
Speaker 2: his Egyptian so he had come from a very well
Speaker 2: to do family in Boston, so he was highly educated.
Speaker 2: He had a nursing degree, but was a drug addict.
Speaker 2: So he was in recovery ended up very quickly like
Speaker 2: moving up the ranks in Boca. He had come down
Speaker 2: for treatment from Boston and ended up staying anyway. So
Speaker 2: when we first met, it was almost an immediate attraction.
Speaker 1: Do you think you're addicted to him? Speaking of think
Speaker 1: you said that before? Oh yeah, we lost you, you
Speaker 1: were gone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and listen, there was maybe that piece that he
Speaker 2: definitely had traits of her father. He was brilliant, for sure.
Speaker 2: He was the most driven person I've ever met. He
Speaker 2: basically took himself out of the slums to being I
Speaker 2: don't know, worth about eighty million dollars now. He built
Speaker 2: an entire rehab but along the way. I met him
Speaker 2: when he was first starting out, but I knew that
Speaker 2: he was going to be successful. He made me laugh.
Speaker 1: He flagged his wealth because I know he came from
Speaker 1: a wealthy family.
Speaker 2: He didn't come No, he didn't come from a wealthy family. Initially,
Speaker 2: they were actually very very poor. They came over from
Speaker 2: Egypt when they were eighteen years old to go to school.
Speaker 2: So Dad went to Harvard, Mom went somewhere else. They
Speaker 2: were very poor, and Dad made his money in his profession.
Speaker 1: Got it, but.
Speaker 2: Yes he did. They made a lot of money over time.
Speaker 2: He was in real estate in Boston and was a
Speaker 2: nurse as well. And yes, one of the traits of
Speaker 2: his was when he started making money, the whole world
Speaker 2: had to know he was making money. I mean, it
Speaker 2: was so narcissistic. I have more than you. I remember
Speaker 2: when he told Randy, my best friend Randy, the first
Speaker 2: time he met her, he said, how much do you make?
Speaker 2: This is how much I make. I bet I make
Speaker 2: more than you. She still brings it up. Yeah, So listen.
Speaker 2: He was driven and dedicated and charming, and I was enamored.
Speaker 2: I really had never met anybody like him before in
Speaker 2: that capacity, and I was taken in.
Speaker 1: Do you think that you were because I'm comparing it
Speaker 1: to your first marriage, right, that was I don't think
Speaker 1: you ever scared of your first husband, But I alway
Speaker 1: felt like you were a little scared of your second.
Speaker 2: You always say that, which is so interesting.
Speaker 1: Is it not true.
Speaker 2: I was never physically scared of him. I don't think
Speaker 2: I was emotionally of losing him. Yes, that's what I
Speaker 2: was scared of.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I always felt like I loved him more than he
Speaker 2: loved me. He's Muslim, and the way that he's sees
Speaker 2: the world was that we were never going to be partners.
Speaker 2: As long as he made more money than I did,
Speaker 2: we were never going to be partners. So what happened
Speaker 2: in the end, I mean this relationship was it became
Speaker 2: very emotionally abusive. It was I worked for him and
Speaker 2: he had a.
Speaker 1: Rehab literally right, literally.
Speaker 2: I worked for him. He had a humongous rehab in Boca.
Speaker 2: I was the clinical director. And when we started having
Speaker 2: problems in our marriage, a lot of times it was
Speaker 2: related to our communication, and the communication being if I
Speaker 2: didn't agree with you, that I was being dramatic and
Speaker 2: there was something wrong with me. Very narcissistic, right, that's
Speaker 2: the twist. Narcissists make you feel like you're crazy. Right,
Speaker 2: They're always right. They're always waiting to fill their ego.
Speaker 2: If you do something that doesn't fill their ego, then
Speaker 2: you're the problem. So you know, it was I was
Speaker 2: so obsessed with him and keeping him, but he had
Speaker 2: all the power in the relationship. I worked for him,
Speaker 2: he paid my salary. The home we lived in initially
Speaker 2: was his home. I moved my kids into his home,
Speaker 2: so there was nothing in my life. As he was
Speaker 2: on the up and up in his career, he was
Speaker 2: great and generous with money, phenomenally so, because that was
Speaker 2: also the thing that helped to fuel his ego. He
Speaker 2: helped my kids financially, he paid for camp, he paid
Speaker 2: for bar mitzvahs, he did all of those things. But
Speaker 2: he was completely and utterly emotionally abusive.
Speaker 1: Right I think about how that affected all Although it
Speaker 1: certainly affected our relationship, it was just hard for me
Speaker 1: to watch it. I guess.
Speaker 2: Yes, Listen, I always stood up for myself. Let's not
Speaker 2: keep myself. I am not some you know, shrinking violet. No,
Speaker 2: I am not a shrinking violet. There was never a
Speaker 2: time that I did not open up my mouth and
Speaker 2: give my side. But it didn't matter what my side was,
Speaker 2: because I was always.
Speaker 1: Wrong in the end. What do you think was the clincher?
Speaker 2: Honestly, he'll never admit it, but he was cheating on
Speaker 2: me at that point. I think he was cheating on me.
Speaker 2: He had a gambling problem at the time as well,
Speaker 2: and I think that he was going out. Who knows
Speaker 2: if he had cheated on me before he had relapsed
Speaker 2: at one point, But that really wasn't a big part
Speaker 2: of the issue. To be honest with you, I have
Speaker 2: great boundaries when it comes to relapse, and he didn't really,
Speaker 2: at least while we were married. I was told that
Speaker 2: he did at times drink, but he never did it
Speaker 2: around me, and I couldn't prove anything. But at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, it was what I believe was
Speaker 2: an affair, what I believe was impulsive behavior in a
Speaker 2: lot of different ways. If you were to ask him,
Speaker 2: he would say that the wedding was us getting married
Speaker 2: was wrong from day one. That's what he likes to
Speaker 2: tell people.
Speaker 1: When you look back on it, would you do it again?
Speaker 2: No? I think it was a toxic relationship, and I
Speaker 2: was definitely part of the toxicity. You know, in terms
Speaker 2: of you have to be a really great codependent to
Speaker 2: be with a narcissist.
Speaker 1: Robin, I am that I have to write that down.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you said it to me before. I have
Speaker 1: put quotes around it and make it into a poster.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of that piece of you end up
Speaker 2: when people you say that you're codependent, it's really that
Speaker 2: you kind of begin to do things at the expense
Speaker 2: of your own values. You cross your own lines of
Speaker 2: things you never said, you do things you never said
Speaker 2: that you'd put up with right, things that you felt
Speaker 2: that you never thought that you would stay involved in
Speaker 2: something that you felt hopeless in, and your whole life
Speaker 2: becomes about making the other person happy, trying to identify
Speaker 2: with the other person, Right, you lose your own identity
Speaker 2: for the sake of fitting into somebody else's and I
Speaker 2: think that's what happened. And by that time you get
Speaker 2: so worn down emotionally that you almost begin to believe
Speaker 2: that you or the problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, just in terms of family and
Speaker 1: how all this affects family. So we didn't talk for
Speaker 1: a lot of that marriage. You were orn't married for
Speaker 1: that long? How how long were you actual?
Speaker 2: Years?
Speaker 1: Four years? So we probably didn't speak half. I don't remember.
Speaker 1: We didn't speak when you got married, we didn't well.
Speaker 2: We were together for eleven years, interestingly.
Speaker 1: Enough, Yeah, during that marriage, that was when we were like,
Speaker 1: I almost didn't go to the wedding, and then we
Speaker 1: stopped speaking, but that we reconciled. I think the day
Speaker 1: the day like you were, you knew that you guys
Speaker 1: were in trouble, and you reached out to me and
Speaker 1: you're like, I need my sister. Yeah, But I mean
Speaker 1: I think we didn't speak because I just didn't like
Speaker 1: the way you were when you were around him. I
Speaker 1: didn't like. I didn't I wasn't a fan, you know,
Speaker 1: he he and I just we butted heads. But I
Speaker 1: mean for you and I not to speak, and I
Speaker 1: was also going through my As a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: is that when I was separated.
Speaker 2: That's when you came to Florida for the summer.
Speaker 1: That right, That's when I went to Florida and for
Speaker 1: that summer Jeff and I had separated, And I meant,
Speaker 1: I think you were a big Jeff Essler fan. You
Speaker 1: probably could see that I was, you know, fucking things
Speaker 1: up in my life, my own life. We just but
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: Think you could see that at the time either. I
Speaker 2: don't think just kind of like when people were telling
Speaker 2: me what I was doing, and I was so invested
Speaker 2: in what I was doing, I couldn't see it. I
Speaker 2: don't think at that time you were able to see
Speaker 2: the concern about, you know, some of what was going
Speaker 2: on on your end of it. I think it was
Speaker 2: just I don't know, you tell me, I don't know
Speaker 2: what it was for you.
Speaker 1: I mean, my sh is so complicated. I think that
Speaker 1: a lot of it had to do with our childhood
Speaker 1: that I thought I was always so insecure growing up
Speaker 1: and so miserable and needed this tension from men. I
Speaker 1: think I had such daddy issues. I mean, Jeff had
Speaker 1: an affair obviously that set things in motion, but we'd
Speaker 1: stop connecting. Really, I mean, we were the cliche seven
Speaker 1: year itch and the kids, the kids, the kids, and
Speaker 1: we weren't focused at all on each other. And I
Speaker 1: didn't feel the spark. And I defined spark today very
Speaker 1: differently than I did when I was in my thirties.
Speaker 2: It was also that attention piece for you too, I
Speaker 2: think at that point, yeah, especially after how you felt
Speaker 2: with the betrayal, Yes, of what happened. I think you
Speaker 2: were looking to be filled right by something outside of
Speaker 2: you that was just going to make you feel better.
Speaker 1: Yes, but I'm going to try to not make this
Speaker 1: all about me, which you know is difficult. That you
Speaker 1: have my narcissistic tendencies.
Speaker 2: I don't think anyway.
Speaker 1: So all right, so that marriage ends, and that was
Speaker 1: you had a road to recovery. Certainly that was not easy.
Speaker 2: That was brutal.
Speaker 1: Were you thinking, like, first of all, did you think
Speaker 1: you'd ever get married again after that? No?
Speaker 2: Because I didn't know how I was going to live
Speaker 2: another day without a minute, to be honest with you, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and if it wasn't for you guys and another friend
Speaker 2: who literally basically took care of my kids with me
Speaker 2: but was at my house every night for a year,
Speaker 2: and you know, my best friend in Dallas. But I
Speaker 2: think that for me, it was just how am I
Speaker 2: going to breathe in and out? And that's the destruction
Speaker 2: of being in such a narcissistic relationship is I didn't
Speaker 2: even know who, what where I was coming from after
Speaker 2: that marriage, how I was going to live without this
Speaker 2: guy who was emotionally abusive, because that's what I had
Speaker 2: learned was okay, And I literally did, like I didn't
Speaker 2: know how I was going to survive it. It was
Speaker 2: the worst year or two of my life for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was hard one.
Speaker 1: And then he started dating again. You had several boyfriends, actually, right, that.
Speaker 2: Is when I did a Jen Fessler. So I decided
Speaker 2: I was going to date every human on the planet
Speaker 2: and just have fun and not care. That's what I
Speaker 2: was going to do, Like whatever, I don't want any
Speaker 2: big series this. Oh I had a blast. I had
Speaker 2: a blast. I probably dated more guys in two years
Speaker 2: than I dated my.
Speaker 1: Entire life, right, yeah, right right? And so so I mean,
Speaker 1: would you recommend that to people because personally, I don't
Speaker 1: mean professionally, but after divorce, like you jumped into the
Speaker 1: first marriage the second marriage when you ended up getting
Speaker 1: married again, but you would say.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, for first, take care of you, make sure you're healed,
Speaker 2: right that you know, put someone under you to get
Speaker 2: over the other thing. What is that expression?
Speaker 1: But yeah, you do, that's dad, our father. Is it
Speaker 1: the only way to get over someone is to get
Speaker 1: under under? Yes, I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily.
Speaker 2: Curtly think that, but I think that rebuilding yourself is
Speaker 2: a process. So I think going out and having fun
Speaker 2: where you're trying to heal is more important, you know
Speaker 2: than just acting stupid. But definitely go and have fun
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 1: And okay, So tell us about your third husband.
Speaker 2: Yes, his name's John God. We met a couple of years.
Speaker 2: I was dating people for a couple of years before
Speaker 2: I met John. We met on match dot Com. I
Speaker 2: had been on some of those, you know, all of
Speaker 2: those stupid whatever sites and he was the only one
Speaker 2: that I actually reached out to first, which I find
Speaker 2: so interesting because everyone. Yeah, he was the only person
Speaker 2: that and the guy I dated before him, but and
Speaker 2: we met. We met at a bar restaurant in Boca Ratone,
Speaker 2: and just he was just such a breath of fresh
Speaker 2: air from the second I met him, like just manners
Speaker 2: and I don't even know how to explain it. He
Speaker 2: was cute, he was well put together, and we hit
Speaker 2: it off from the get go. There was something about
Speaker 2: him Jewish and I had been with someone who wasn't,
Speaker 2: so it almost felt like coming home a little bit,
Speaker 2: being with someone I could just connect to in that capacity. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it was personality wise from the get go. We
Speaker 2: had so many things in common. The things we liked
Speaker 2: to do were both big wine drinkers, very into red.
Speaker 1: Wine back then, into travel.
Speaker 2: The hobbies, yeah, movies, TV, working out, just there was
Speaker 2: it was. There was an easiness that I had not
Speaker 2: been with probably since my first husband. Right, I wasn't
Speaker 2: There wasn't any anxiety or you're saying the wrong thing,
Speaker 2: or he just genuinely liked me for who I was.
Speaker 2: And the fact that he just thought I was pretty
Speaker 2: was also helpful. I'm a little cutter, I'm a little
Speaker 2: cutter than him.
Speaker 1: So okay, So what happened.
Speaker 2: We started immediately dating, and we just kept seeing each other,
Speaker 2: seeing each other. And this was at the point in
Speaker 2: time I think when I told you I wanted to
Speaker 2: move to New Jersey. It was right before.
Speaker 1: I am right.
Speaker 2: So, after our third date, I told him that I
Speaker 2: was still looking to move to New Jersey and he
Speaker 2: ended it because of that. He's like, I don't want
Speaker 2: to do a long distance I'm here, you're there. So
Speaker 2: we didn't talk for a couple of months, and then
Speaker 2: on his birthday, which is the twenty ninth of December,
Speaker 2: I decided I had been thinking about him. I decided
Speaker 2: to reach out and wish him happy birthday. We started
Speaker 2: texting back and forth and I told him I was
Speaker 2: going to be with you at the Boca Resort for
Speaker 2: the New Year's party.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2: And he said he was going there as well. He said,
Speaker 2: maybe you can come by and say hello. I had
Speaker 2: another date. I never remember that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had. We had. Yes, we had to like
Speaker 1: like sneak away and I came with you to go
Speaker 1: see John. It was like a whole thing. I felt terrible,
Speaker 1: pulled me into your web of deceit.
Speaker 2: I know, I left my other, my boyfriend of two
Speaker 2: years at the time to go.
Speaker 1: Well, he wasn't your boyfriend because you were seeing No.
Speaker 2: John and I had broken up, and so I got
Speaker 2: back together with my ex boyfriends. I didn't put that
Speaker 2: in for like a brief minute in time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, all right, so long story short, because I can't.
Speaker 1: You ended up married and then you ended up divorced. Correct,
Speaker 1: tell us what happened.
Speaker 2: Yes, we dated for a year and then we were
Speaker 2: in love with each other and decided to get married.
Speaker 2: Same dreams, same value, same everything. And three weeks after
Speaker 2: we got married, I think we were on our honeymoon. No,
Speaker 2: not on our honeymoon. A little while after that, maybe
Speaker 2: a cup Sorry I lied. Three months later we were
Speaker 2: away on vacation. We were with you in Boston, No,
Speaker 2: in Cape Cod and John got a call on the
Speaker 2: way home that his father was in the hospital. Is
Speaker 2: after three months of marriage. Long story short, It was
Speaker 2: the worst thing. His father died soon after. And I
Speaker 2: think John and his father were best friends and had
Speaker 2: a business together, and you know, he was his hero.
Speaker 2: He was John's hero, and John fell apart from that
Speaker 2: at the time they had just switched businesses as well,
Speaker 2: one company to another. They were at a brand new
Speaker 2: transition to another company. They're both financial advisors, so new
Speaker 2: transition to a company that wasn't working out very well.
Speaker 2: His father's death, we definitely had differences in our parenting style.
Speaker 2: He had a young child at the time and my
Speaker 2: kids were in high school, and I initially didn't want
Speaker 2: to be with someone who had a young kid. I
Speaker 2: didn't want to be a parent again. Been there, done that,
Speaker 2: No desire to parent your kid. And his daughter at
Speaker 2: the time had been through a lot. She was young,
Speaker 2: she was four or five years old when I met her. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and we couldn't see eyed I on the parenting at You.
Speaker 1: Would have stayed You would have stayed married even with
Speaker 1: all of that. You always say that you would not
Speaker 1: have gotten divorced. No, you did not want another divorce.
Speaker 2: I would not have gotten divorced. I don't think he
Speaker 2: was in an emotional space to deal with the things
Speaker 2: that I was bringing to the marriage of things that
Speaker 2: weren't working, things that I wasn't okay with, things about
Speaker 2: parenting that I didn't like, the custody stuff he had
Speaker 2: going back and forth. It was a lot and listening. Obviously,
Speaker 2: he has his side of who I was. I can't
Speaker 2: really think about anything I did wrong, but other than
Speaker 2: being a bitch because I am. But I really can't
Speaker 2: like I can fault myself for a lot of things
Speaker 2: I did wrong in my marriages. I think that the
Speaker 2: aftermath of my second marriage, I can say emotionally for
Speaker 2: me at times, and I was still going through it
Speaker 2: with him and turns of finances. Even when John and
Speaker 2: I married, I was still going through it with my
Speaker 2: ex and he think that there were so many issues there.
Speaker 2: I think he knows that this guy still had a
Speaker 2: piece of my heart as toxic as I knew it
Speaker 2: was at this point. I think the issues that arose
Speaker 2: from that relationship were difficult. Financially, he had a lot.
Speaker 2: My second husband was very, very wealthy, and John has
Speaker 2: a good living. But the only thing is that I
Speaker 2: could count on in that second marriage was the money.
Speaker 2: And it was probably more money than I had ever
Speaker 2: had in my own right or been with someone who
Speaker 2: had that kind of money.
Speaker 1: Definitely right, and it kind.
Speaker 2: Of took away the emotional pain at the time that
Speaker 2: I had money, and so John was just a guy
Speaker 2: who made a good living, right, I mean, he's successful
Speaker 2: in his own right, and argued about money, always argued
Speaker 2: about money, because now I felt like I needed to
Speaker 2: be taken care of financially because I was taken care
Speaker 2: of financially. I didn't have anything else in the second marriag,
Speaker 2: but I was taken care of financially, So now I
Speaker 2: wanted to be taken care of and John wasn't really
Speaker 2: in that position. We had both been married before to
Speaker 2: take care of me.
Speaker 1: Right, right, So okay, so you ended up getting divorced,
Speaker 1: so okay, but there is a line here after a year,
Speaker 1: right after year of marriage, so then what happened tell
Speaker 1: us about where we are today.
Speaker 2: So after that marriage, I was like, that's it. I'm done,
Speaker 2: I'm not getting getting married. I moved out, got an apartment,
Speaker 2: and for a year we didn't really speak at all,
Speaker 2: only when it was in reference to things we needed
Speaker 2: to speak about, right, So the belongings, the divorce selling,
Speaker 2: the house selling. That's right, all of that stuff, But
Speaker 2: there was always an underlying kind of I miss you,
Speaker 2: but he wanted the divorce. I did not, And even
Speaker 2: though there were issues in it, I'm like, I am
Speaker 2: not doing this again. This guy. I married him. I
Speaker 2: wanted it to work, so I felt very betrayed. He
Speaker 2: was the one who asked for the divorce. He was
Speaker 2: the one who couldn't do it anymore, and he knew
Speaker 2: that it wouldn't have been me who wanted to do this,
Speaker 2: and he was in a bad space. So we talked,
Speaker 2: didn't really talk, but talked, you know, for for reasons
Speaker 2: we needed to. But every now and then there'd be
Speaker 2: and I miss you. I miss you too, but I'm
Speaker 2: too hurt, and I don't You had your chance and
Speaker 2: you lost me, and that's it, right, black and white thinker.
Speaker 2: So it went on like this for a while, and
Speaker 2: then one day he called me up and said, I
Speaker 2: really need to make amends for our marriage. Are you
Speaker 2: willing to meet me? So I did. I met him
Speaker 2: at a cute little place we used to go to together,
Speaker 2: and he was crying and he said, I did this
Speaker 2: all wrong. I gave up on you, I gave up
Speaker 2: on us. I wasn't emotionally capable of being present in
Speaker 2: this marriage. I wasn't able to take on, you know,
Speaker 2: any accountability for why it went wrong. And he, you know,
Speaker 2: he basically just fell apart. He said it was my fault.
Speaker 2: I should not have given up on this, and I didn't.
Speaker 2: With all the other trauma and all the other things
Speaker 2: going on in his life and us disagreeing on certain things,
Speaker 2: we couldn't handle it. So he apologized. We started talking
Speaker 2: after that, and it was a lot of talking, you know,
Speaker 2: hours and hours and hours of talking, and I still
Speaker 2: was like, that's it. I'm not you know, I can't
Speaker 2: go backwards. I've done this enough. And he wouldn't stop calling,
Speaker 2: and eventually he asked me if I would meet him again,
Speaker 2: and I did, and slowly, over time we got back together.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't sleep with him for months. I remember that
Speaker 2: that was like the punishment, right use sex is the
Speaker 2: as the thing, and not really because not because I
Speaker 2: wanted you to eight because I was so angry about
Speaker 2: what had happened. Even though I was kind of bringing
Speaker 2: him back in my life, I wasn't going to let
Speaker 2: myself lose that part of this kind of control that
Speaker 2: it was going to go the way I wanted, how
Speaker 2: I wanted at my pace. So yeah, so we've been
Speaker 2: back to back together ten years.
Speaker 1: Plus ten years plus Robin. The big question, the burning question,
Speaker 1: why didn't you get married again.
Speaker 2: I hope he's not listening to this podcast right now.
Speaker 1: Why, I don't think you're saying anything.
Speaker 2: No, I can't ever say that I wouldn't get married
Speaker 2: again at this point in my life. He lives in
Speaker 2: Boca and I live in New Jersey.
Speaker 1: Which, by the way, I think has worked out beautifully.
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of not being on top of
Speaker 1: each other in a marriage. I mean, that's that's really
Speaker 1: not on top of each other.
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, I mean he comes every two weeks, right,
Speaker 2: so I see him a lot.
Speaker 1: Right, of course, I'll see him a lot.
Speaker 2: He would love to be together more. He's heard me
Speaker 2: say it. I'm okay with it, Like I find that
Speaker 2: it has really made our relationship blossom. He's the greatest
Speaker 2: man to me. No man's ever treated me better than
Speaker 2: this man treats me. You always tell me that. My
Speaker 2: whole family.
Speaker 1: Tells me that he is so good to you.
Speaker 2: He's almost too good at times. So I want to say,
Speaker 2: you know, get some balls somewhere, be me to me
Speaker 2: every now and then. He just can't do it. It's
Speaker 2: not in his DNA. So he wants to get remarried.
Speaker 2: I just don't know if I necessarily see a point,
Speaker 2: we've already separated everything. The first time we went through lawyers.
Speaker 2: The first time it didn't work out.
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that a lot of that
Speaker 1: is just about the fact that you're now after three marriages,
Speaker 1: just like how great can marriage be? Really? I mean
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it like it didn't work out. It
Speaker 1: didn't work out, It didn't work out. Now things are
Speaker 1: working out, right, worked out, They actually did work out.
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys would be together forever regardless.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did work out. And I think that we
Speaker 2: already consider ourselves married. You know, we both wear our
Speaker 2: rings at this point. We're completely committed. We're not with
Speaker 2: anyone or have any desire to be with anyone else.
Speaker 2: We our relationship, he would say it too, is the
Speaker 2: best it's ever been. We laugh all the time. I
Speaker 2: always tell you everything. We have so many things in common.
Speaker 2: Finish each other's sentences or take that back. He thinks
Speaker 2: he can finish mine all the time, which actually annoys me.
Speaker 2: But right, I talk and then he finishes my son,
Speaker 2: and so I'm like, Hi, I'm sitting here. You don't
Speaker 2: need to finish my son, as I got it. But
Speaker 2: I don't need to. I don't. I don't. We're together.
Speaker 2: I don't see a reason for it at all. I'm
Speaker 2: on his insurance without being married. That's okay, right, So
Speaker 2: it just it works for us. I know he really
Speaker 2: wants that. I think it's very important to him, but
Speaker 2: at this point in my life, I'm not ready.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they do it. Yeah, no, I mean listen, for me,
Speaker 1: as your sister, who loves you more than anyone, I
Speaker 1: just see you so happy now. It's like but then again,
Speaker 1: and I think also maybe part of that is that
Speaker 1: you don't need the financial security like you used to.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that for a lot of women,
Speaker 1: you know, they're home raising kids and they don't they're
Speaker 1: not not necessarily working and although the hardest job in
Speaker 1: the world, but you know, their career hasn't blossomed like
Speaker 1: their husbands has, and that can be scary, right, But yours,
Speaker 1: you have a full, serious career. So I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's you know how much that would have to
Speaker 1: do with it.
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, it wasn't. He wasn't taking care of
Speaker 2: me financially when we were married, so John, I mean,
Speaker 2: we were fifty to fifty all the way through. So
Speaker 2: there wasn't he wasn't taking care of me, and that
Speaker 2: was part of the problem in the marriage at the time.
Speaker 2: Is that I just you know, again, call me traditional.
Speaker 2: I just always felt like he should pay for a
Speaker 2: little more. He's the man, and he didn't. And that
Speaker 2: might be an unwoke way to say things, but that's
Speaker 2: the truth. I just don't. It didn't happen. And you
Speaker 2: are right though, there is a freedom in not having
Speaker 2: to rely on anybody right for your life and to
Speaker 2: have someone in it because you want them in it,
Speaker 2: not because you need them in it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I mean any like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean you obviously you give advice for a living.
Speaker 1: I mean that's what you do. And I know you
Speaker 1: believe in marriage. I mean, I know how much you
Speaker 1: love my marriage, how much you love my relationship with Jeff,
Speaker 1: the best close to Jeff. But I mean that's maybe
Speaker 1: we need another to do another pot on it. But
Speaker 1: like you know, for your kids in terms of like
Speaker 1: cause I always say to my kids now, like it's
Speaker 1: it's probably the most important decision that you'll ever make,
Speaker 1: right who you pick is a life partner.
Speaker 2: It's so funny because I don't say that to my
Speaker 2: kids at all. You don't know both my kids believe
Speaker 2: in divorce. I don't, and not because they don't want
Speaker 2: to be in a loving relationship. They do. Obviously. Everyone
Speaker 2: goes into a marriage hoping that it's their life partner.
Speaker 2: But you know what, sometimes your life partner is not
Speaker 2: your first partner. Sorry, And we grow and we change,
Speaker 2: and we have to do our best right while we're
Speaker 2: in a marriage, to try to nurture it, to give
Speaker 2: it the presence, the time that it deserves, right, to
Speaker 2: deal with the things that keep it together, and make
Speaker 2: it the number one priority in our lives. Our children
Speaker 2: should not be a number one priority. There as important,
Speaker 2: but they should not be the number one priority in
Speaker 2: a marriage. That marriage, the marriage should be. And I
Speaker 2: don't think I don't think we do that enough. So
Speaker 2: I think if we put in all that we can
Speaker 2: put in, and things happen and things change, and you
Speaker 2: fight like hell to try to stay in it, but
Speaker 2: if you are unhappy you do not stay. That is
Speaker 2: not your most important decision to stay in something. You
Speaker 2: stay in it for the things that Rachel.
Speaker 1: I always mean it like, well, I just think I
Speaker 1: see so much. Obviously, what is it more than half
Speaker 1: of marriages and a divorce. But it's just I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think if you to really like the person and
Speaker 1: love but also a really it's a choice that I
Speaker 1: think is can just affect you can affect your happiness.
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's for another pod, because it.
Speaker 2: Is it is. But they I think they they're good
Speaker 2: with where with where I'm at, and I think that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they love John. I mean I think
Speaker 1: they'd be happy if you got married, but I think
Speaker 1: they're okay if you don't.
Speaker 2: I mean, they care more about their own lives and
Speaker 2: giving a shit if I get married for a fourth time.
Speaker 2: To be honest with you, so that's true to you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, he's ten years and they love
Speaker 2: him and they treat him like he treats them like
Speaker 2: like they're hist So I mean he's he's the best
Speaker 2: and they love him, and I'm happy and it works
Speaker 2: third time around four, fourth time something, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's a lot, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: Thank you, I love you so much, thanks for having
Speaker 1: to talk to you later. Wow, right, she's the best.
Speaker 1: I'm very, very very lucky and blessed to have her
Speaker 1: as a sister, and she's actually helped me so much
Speaker 1: in terms of my marriage and our issues and she's
Speaker 1: been through it, but it worked out and that's the point, right, Well,
Speaker 1: that's what we hope for anyway. So one more time, Robbie,
Speaker 1: if you're listening, thank you for coming on. Thank you
Speaker 1: for sharing your journey. You guys, are you thinking about
Speaker 1: reconciling with an X? Have you been through a couple
Speaker 1: of divorces? Do you need help finding love again? Follow
Speaker 1: us or email us all the infos in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Follow us on socials. Make sure to rate and review
Speaker 1: the podcast I Do Part two and iHeart Radio podcasts
Speaker 1: where falling in love is the main objective.