1 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: Ruby. 2 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: Today we are joined by someone who looked at the 3 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 2: part of her body that the world told her to 4 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: hide and decided that she would make it a canvas. 5 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: She is an advocate, a community builder, and she has 6 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 2: got lots of tattoos, so already near and dear to 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: my heart. We will get into why that's important in 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: our episode. Today. Our guest is the lovely Hannah Williams. 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: Hannah has lived with psoriasis for years, and like a 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 2: lot of our guests, she spent a long stretch of 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 2: that time trying to make it disappear. But somewhere along 12 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 2: the line that goal changed. She is building community around 13 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 2: this simple, radical idea that you're allowed to feel at 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: home in the body that you actually have, and you 15 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: can decorate it however you want. Just incredibly brave and cool. 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 2: And that is exactly why she is the perfect guest 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: for today, because this episode is about the long road 18 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 2: to liking and dare I say loving what you see 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: in the mirror. Hannah, Welcome to our skin. We are 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:17,559 Speaker 2: so glad you're here. 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute honor. 22 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 2: Honestly, I want to start out right out of the 23 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 2: gate talking about something that I am very interested in 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 2: talking about, which is your beautiful tattoos. I want to 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 2: know how you got interested in having a tattoo yourself. 26 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: Did you see someone with something that you just loved? 27 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: Did you have an idea of what you wanted for 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 2: your first tattoo for a long time. There are so 29 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: many ways that people get to that first tattoo, and 30 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 2: I want to hear your story. 31 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 3: I suppose I've always been someone that loved to I 32 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 3: love drawing on myself as well as I suppose most 33 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 3: kids do, but it was always something that I've always 34 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 3: come home from school and my mom I'd be like, 35 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: why are you still drawing on yourself? BE like, well, 36 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 3: you know, it's fun. And my dad went to get 37 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 3: a tattoo, and I remember going to the tattoo studio 38 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 3: with him when he went to pitch what he was getting, 39 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 3: and it was just seeing all the art on the walls. 40 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 3: It was fun. It was great to see what type 41 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 3: of different designs people would get. But I suppose another 42 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 3: part of it is my kind of aestetish is that 43 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 3: I'm a little bit more goffy or email, depending on 44 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 3: where you want to put me. Is that the music 45 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 3: that I've listened to has always kind of influenced me 46 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 3: as well, So then people have always had tattoos. It's 47 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 3: a fun way to express yourself in any way. 48 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 2: I agree. I want to also talk about, of course, 49 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: another aspect of your skin. You have been living with 50 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: psoriasis for some time now. I would love to also 51 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: talk about the beginning of that journey. You were really 52 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: really young when your first flair hit and it was 53 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 2: on your scalp. 54 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 3: Correct, Yeah, so I was a first developed it when 55 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 3: I was twelve, so what before? It was originally Dan Droff, 56 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 3: and had tried all the shampoos and ever and else 57 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 3: that it can do, just try and get rid of it, 58 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 3: and it didn't shift. So eventually got taken to the 59 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 3: doctors and they said it soriasis. So they did what 60 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 3: they did and gave me all kinds of shampoos and 61 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 3: everything else as well, and again didn't really shift it. 62 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 3: I remember being God's twelve thirteen and having to put 63 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 3: cream on my head the night before gaving to school, 64 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 3: and having to get up super early to then wash 65 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 3: it out again, and having to repeat that process for 66 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 3: so long for it then not to shift, and being 67 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 3: so self conscious that people would see what was going 68 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 3: on and me not actually at the time, having I 69 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 3: supposed the words to actually understand what was going on. 70 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: And it didn't stay localized to your scalp. You have 71 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: described that it covered close to ninety five percent of 72 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: your body. You said once that you felt like you 73 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: looked like a burn victim by the time you saw 74 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: the dermatologist. This is an age where it's just hard 75 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: to be a kid anyway, So what was it like 76 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: living inside that body day to day as a teenager 77 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: when this is really a time when so much is 78 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: already about what you think people are perceiving, how you're 79 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: being seen. 80 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 3: So yeah, by the time I'd finally gone to a dermatologist, 81 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 3: I was sixteen, So I was coming to the doctors 82 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 3: pretty much every week. They kept trying to give me 83 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 3: the same creams over and over again, even though I 84 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 3: was telling them they weren't working. And it went until 85 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 3: I think it was just before me eighteenth birthday that 86 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 3: we had a like a visiting doctor we call them 87 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 3: a lohum over here, who basically goes in when they 88 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 3: need extra people in the doctors. And he came in 89 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 3: and all it did was rolled down the slaves and 90 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 3: he went to me, why have you not been referred? 91 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 3: I went, I don't know. You tell me, oh, and 92 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 3: he started my referral process and it was actually once 93 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 3: I'd got referred to the hospital for dermatology, it was 94 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 3: actually the people in the dermatology department that had ten 95 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 3: rounds are said there I was one of their worste 96 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 3: cases and that I looked like a bend victim. So 97 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 3: that came from them, not me being that age. As 98 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 3: you said, having something that covers your complete body, it's 99 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 3: very vulnerable in its own way. Is that I basically 100 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 3: just didn't want to be perceived because if you could 101 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 3: be perceived, people had questions and I didn't have the 102 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: answers to them. 103 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,239 Speaker 2: And you have also said something else that really stuck 104 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: with me, that feeling that people are constantly steering, whether 105 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: they were or not. Our last guest, Dana told us 106 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: about a very similar feeling on her part. Can you 107 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: talk about that, because I think a lot of our 108 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 2: listeners can recognize that feeling of being your own harshest critic. 109 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 3: I suppose that moerability of not kind of understanding what 110 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 3: I was coming through and then trying to be perceived 111 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: from other people. It's not having the answers to their questions. 112 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 3: What I used to do is basically just to hide. 113 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 3: Is wouldn't show any part of your skin at all, 114 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 3: To be completely honest with you, and the part that 115 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: I couldn't hide, like hands or face, it was still 116 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 3: some days were really hard to actually just leave the house. 117 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 3: It is just being perceived by pace. Is that vulnerability 118 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 3: of going, oh, well, are they staring at me? Do 119 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 3: they know what's going on with me? 120 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: Hannah was in her Victorian period? Ever got the era? 121 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: There is also a very specific moment in your story 122 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 2: that I keep thinking about because it exhibits such bravado. 123 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: Your twenty first birthday, you were in Rome and you 124 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 2: decided to bare your legs, and you said that you 125 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 2: could feel eyes on you all day long, and that 126 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: it made you want to hide all over again. Looking 127 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: back today, at the level of advocacy you operate at, 128 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: what do you make of that. 129 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 3: Day, that specific moment in time. It's a weird one. 130 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 3: To be completely honest, you don't quite understand whether they 131 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: are looking at you. It's just my own perception of 132 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 3: I know that I being brave in my own way 133 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 3: and showing the fact that I've got this condition and 134 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 3: that people can be looking at me. Well, to be honest, 135 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 3: Lough completely passed me. But I'm thinking that they're look 136 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 3: at me even though they're not. Yeah, it's a very strange, 137 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 3: very strange sensation to hide so much, possibly having people 138 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 3: stare at you because they don't understand what it is. 139 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: This is also a really unique situation. Right You're in 140 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: a foreign country. You are presumably looking around at amazing 141 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: things that tourists will see when they're there. You know 142 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: you're having your colisseum day, but you're also experiencing this 143 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: profound moment where you do feel self conscious but also brave. 144 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: Tell me all about that. How much did it rob 145 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: you of the terroism experience versus how much strength did 146 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: you ultimately walk away with even though you felt very 147 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: awkward at times? 148 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 3: The experience of self is why I can still got rome. 149 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 3: Was an absolutely fantastic thing. But it will always be that. 150 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 3: Maybe that one little thing that will pop up is 151 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 3: knowing that while I'm sat and enjoying myself, I'm still 152 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 3: very self aware and self conscious about my own skin. 153 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 3: It's at the end of the day going back to 154 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,679 Speaker 3: the hotel and going, oh my god, my Feta really 155 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 3: saw and then at the back of my mind going oh, 156 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 3: well people were paying attention to me, or because I'd 157 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: decided to wear a dress and put my legs on show, 158 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: and that it went in small plaques I was covered. 159 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 3: It does tint the memory in its own way, but 160 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 3: doesn't completely override it. 161 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: Somewhere between this idea of you know, wanting to hide 162 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: your arms and legs all the time, not even wanting 163 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 2: to be seen when you were at the hairstylist, for example, 164 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: and then where you are now, where you were posting 165 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: your skin publicly, you are sharing your tattoos. Something obviously 166 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 2: huge has shifted for you from your perspective, What was 167 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 2: the actual change. 168 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 3: When something that happened overnight? As I'm sure a lot 169 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: of people could understand, it was very small, very small 170 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 3: steps that happened. So when I started my Instagram page, 171 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 3: it was after I'd been to America to work on 172 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: kids Camp, and that was a situation that I kind 173 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 3: of put myself in to go, right, Okay, well, I 174 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 3: can't walk around in pants in what would be my 175 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 3: forty degree heat because I'd die from heat exhaustion. It 176 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: was having to put on that brave face and go, no, 177 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: this is just a part of who I am. And 178 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 3: through that experience, I had multiple parents actually come up 179 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: to me and go, oh, well, this is what my 180 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 3: friend's cousin has done and it really helped them, which 181 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 3: is something I've kind of had all through my life, 182 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: but it was just the understanding from other people that 183 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 3: really helped at that point. After I did camp, I 184 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 3: had a cross country trip and the people that I 185 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 3: was on for over twenty odd days, they were like, Oh, no, 186 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 3: you're doing really well. Oh your skin's doing really well. 187 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 3: That kind of confirmation to me that people were viewing 188 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 3: it as something horrible or contagious, which is a another 189 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 3: thing like a caveat that comes with psoriasis because people 190 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 3: don't understand it. It was just given me that encouragement 191 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 3: to be this is this is okay, I'm allowed to 192 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 3: be myself. And then it just kind of snowballs from 193 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 3: there really and then I took the plunge one day 194 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: and decided to do an Instagram here and I am. 195 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 2: I of course want to talk about tattoos some more, 196 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 2: because tattooing is medically speaking controlled injury to the skin 197 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: and for a lot of people that can wake something 198 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: like psoriasis right up, How did you weigh that? Did 199 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 2: you talk to anyone about tattooing and psoriasis and how 200 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 2: they interact? Did you research it or did you just 201 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: decide I want this and it's worth it. 202 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 3: I'm going to be completely honest with yet I just 203 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 3: went for it. 204 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: I love it. 205 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 3: At that point in my life, I'd been through like therapy, 206 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: so about the point I was clear, so as I 207 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 3: if any time is to do it, it is now. 208 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 3: And I'm one of the lucky ones. To be completely honest, 209 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 3: is that tatooin doesn't really interact with mysiasis. It doesn't 210 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: flare it up, it doesn't bring it up. So I 211 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 3: am very lucky in that sense, whereas I know some 212 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 3: people do have issues. It's a fresh wound and a 213 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 3: kitchu your skin cells back up. But now I am 214 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 3: very lucky in that regard. I've had people message me 215 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 3: in the past asking about it, and my advice to 216 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 3: them is always do your own research. You know your 217 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 3: skin better than I can. This is just my experience 218 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 3: and how my body's dealt with it. 219 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm also curious about how you found the right artist. 220 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: Did you specifically look for somebody that had familiarity with 221 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: tattooing on someone with psoriasis. 222 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 3: For my first tattoo now, because as I said, I 223 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 3: was clear, but I've had of flare ups all over 224 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 3: the years, and I mainly stick with two specific artists 225 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 3: at the moment. And when you go and get a tattoo, 226 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 3: it's on the checklist when you're doing your form, do 227 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: you have any skin conditions? And the artist that I've 228 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 3: got most of my tattoos from, we sat out and 229 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 3: had a conversation about because of where the tattoo was 230 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: going at the time, it went really an issue. And 231 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 3: it's kind of just been that way all throughout. I've 232 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 3: had other artists seventy nine then that I've mentioned it, 233 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: and they haven't really delved into it so much, but 234 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 3: my specific artists that I go to it always kind 235 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 3: of comes up in conversation anyway. 236 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of finding an artist you love 237 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 2: and sticking with them. I've had the same tattoo artists 238 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 2: for every single one of my pieces. I also want 239 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 2: to ask you, when someone who is newly diagnosed finds 240 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: you online so somewhere out there is a twelve year 241 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: old today who has flakes in her hair and she's 242 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: being told it's standriff, basically a younger version of you. 243 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 2: What do you want them to take away from watching 244 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 2: you live the way that you live now? 245 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: The ZSIIASI as well, it can be scary, is so 246 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 3: uniquely you, and while the statistics are so high for 247 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 3: the condition, there is only one version of you. And 248 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 3: whether you have how I describe myself as scales like 249 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: a snake or spots like a cow, or any other way, 250 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 3: is that it's part of you. That is all it is. 251 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 3: You shouldn't stop it from letting you live your life 252 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 3: and doing what you want to do. It's one of 253 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 3: the really good things about how prominent the community is. 254 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 3: I know in the UK it's two percent of people, 255 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 3: so that is a lot of people that have it, 256 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 3: so you're not alone in it. There is so many 257 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: people that understand what you're going through and can help 258 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 3: you get to where you need to be with it. 259 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 3: That is good advice for anyone in any situation. I 260 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 3: think stigma is. 261 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: A very familiar word here at our Skin something we're 262 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: always talking about busting defying and getting away from stigma bad. 263 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 2: But there was a time when getting away from stigma 264 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: was absolutely not possible, back when things were a bit 265 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: more literal, and we'll dive into that history right after 266 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: the break. All right, let's talk about the word stigma. 267 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: We use it all the time on this show. Stigma 268 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: around psoriasis, stigma around being visibly ill or disabled. The 269 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: way we talk about it today, it could be just 270 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: a vibe I pick up when walking into a room. 271 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: But it can also be concrete, a rude comment, or 272 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: a sideways glance. But this word stigma actually started out 273 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: even more concrete than that, because stigma is a word 274 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: that comes from ancient Greek, and an ancient Greek, a 275 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: stigma was a tattoo or maybe a brand. If you're thinking, oh, 276 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 2: a brand plus ancient times this might not be very pleasant, 277 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: you would be one hundred percent correct, because a stigma 278 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 2: in ancient times was not a tattoo like Hannah's gorgeous art. 279 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: These brands and tattoos categorized people, and they came with 280 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: an inherent intent of degradation. They could mean like and death. 281 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: They were a mark pricked or burned into your skin 282 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: by someone with power over you, so that everyone who 283 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: looked at you would know exactly what you were. So 284 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: in the ancient Greek world, tattooing was a punishment. The 285 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: historian Herodotus says the Greeks picked up the practice of 286 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: penal tattooing from the Persians around the sixth century BCE, 287 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: and they used it on people that they wanted to 288 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: mark as first and foremost owned, and then of course 289 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: that meant that they were lesser, so enslaved people, prisoners 290 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: of war, criminals. If you ran away from the person 291 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: who enslaved you, you might be caught and tattooed across 292 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: the forehead. So talk about stigma, and there are such 293 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: direct corollaries today how people can make us feel with 294 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: comments or other signals that they think we are less 295 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: than them. But stigmas back in ancient times held real, 296 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: ironclad consequences, and it got more elaborate when the Athenians 297 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: defeated the people of Samos in a war around four 298 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 2: forty BCE, they tattooed their prisoners with an owl that 299 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: was the symbol of Athens, basically a trophy stamped onto 300 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 2: a living human being. When the Samians later got the 301 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: upper hand. They returned that favor and they tattooed their 302 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: Athenian prisoners with a Samian warship. So at that point 303 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: you have two groups of people walking around the ancient 304 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: Mediterranean branded with the emblem of the person who happened 305 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: to defeat or own them last. And then the Romans 306 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: took this idea and they completely ran with it. They 307 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: tattooed condemned prisoners with the words condemned to the mines 308 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: before shipping them off to hard labor that most of 309 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: them were not going to survive, but just in case 310 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 2: they somehow managed to escape, everyone around them would know 311 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: and they would be returned to the mines. So here's 312 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: the thing that I really can't get past. The word 313 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: that we now use for the shame attached to a disease, 314 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 2: to a thing that your own body does that you 315 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 2: did not choose and cannot control. That word comes directly 316 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: from the practice of forcibly marking human skin to humiliate it. 317 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: So when we say there's stigma around psoriasis, we are, 318 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 2: without realizing it, reaching for a two and a half 319 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: thousand year old idea, the idea that a mark on 320 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: the skin tells you something true about a person's worth. 321 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: So all right, we've discussed where the word comes from. 322 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 2: Now how did we get to the point where tattoos 323 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: are badass declarations of self to being art, to being 324 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 2: something that people did voluntarily as self expression. So here's 325 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 2: the thing. Even in the ancient world, the picture was 326 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 2: never just one thing, because at the very same time 327 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: that the Greeks were tattooing enslaved people as punishment, other 328 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: people were getting tattooed on purpose as an act of devotion. 329 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: Herodotus describes a temple in Egypt where an enslaved person 330 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 2: and could flee, receive sacred tattoos, and then be placed 331 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 2: under the protection of that God. Early Christians, living under 332 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 2: a Roman government that treated tattoos as the mark of 333 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: the lowest of the low, sometimes chose to tattoo themselves 334 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: with symbols of their faith, and they were them proudly, 335 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 2: even when it was dangerous to do so. 336 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 3: So. 337 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 2: From very early on, there are two stories running side 338 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: by side. The mark forced onto you saying you don't 339 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: belong to yourself, and the mark you choose to say 340 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: this is exactly who I am. Same tool, opposite meanings, 341 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: and of course The important variable here is choice, and that, 342 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 2: to me is really the whole story of how we 343 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 2: got from there to hear. Slowly, over centuries, tattooing in 344 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: the West kept getting tangled up with people kind of 345 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: on the margins, right, sailors, outsiders, anyone that kind of 346 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 2: lived outside of what some people would call respectable society, 347 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: and that old association with shame consequently hung on for 348 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 2: a very long time. That's obviously a really broad sweep, 349 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 2: and I am compressing a lot of centuries here, so 350 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: take the speed of it that I'm talking through it 351 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 2: with a grain of salt. But the thrill line is 352 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 2: still valid and very real. For most of Western history, 353 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: a permanent mark on your skin was something that lowered 354 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 2: you in other people's eyes. And then, mostly within the 355 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 2: last hundred years or so, that kind of flipped tattooing 356 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 2: became for millions of people the opposite of a brand 357 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 2: of shame. It became a way of saying, my skin, 358 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: my body is mine, and I get to decide what's 359 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 2: on it. And this brings me to a very specific 360 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: and beautiful modern variation of that flip, which is people 361 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 2: that use tattoos to reclaim part of their body that 362 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: pain or illness or some sort of trauma has taken 363 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 2: over a lot of tattoo artists now talk about covering 364 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 2: self harm scars or burn scars, or even surgical scars, 365 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: basically taking something that a person wanted to hide and 366 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: turning it into something that they want to show off. 367 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 2: That mark stops being evidence of the worst thing that 368 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: happens to you, and it becomes your declaration that you 369 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: decide what happens next. Now, if you live with psoriasis, 370 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: you already know there is a complication here, and it's 371 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: a big one because your skin doesn't always cooperate with 372 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: that plan. Hannah mentioned that she is incredibly lucky she 373 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: does not get flares, but that's not the case for everyone. 374 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: And so to explain how we came to understand this, 375 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 2: I want to introduce you to one more person. In 376 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: eighteen seventy six, a German dermatologist named Heinrich Kebner described 377 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 2: something he had noticed in his soriasis patients. Their skin 378 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: would develop fresh soriatic lesions, not in random places, but 379 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 2: exactly along the lines where the skin had been injured, 380 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 2: so something like a scratch or a great and in 381 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: the original observations tied to his name. The list of 382 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: injuries that could set it off included a horse bit, 383 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: saddle source from riding, and a tattoo. We now call 384 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 2: this the Kebner phenomenon. It's also known as the isomorphic response, 385 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 2: and it's really common. Roughly a quarter of people with 386 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: psoriasis will experience it. If you traumatize the skin, and 387 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: a tattoo needle is by definition controlled trauma. It's thousands 388 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: of tiny punctures into the dermis. The disease can rise 389 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: up right along with the design. The mechanism is the 390 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: exact same inflammatory machinery we talk about all the time 391 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: on this show. Injured skin releases signaling molecules the immune 392 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 2: system answers, and in a susceptible person, that cascade can 393 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: switch on the exact pathways that drive plaque production. So 394 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 2: for someone with pariasis, a tattoo is not just a 395 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: simple act of reclamation. It's a very calculated one. You 396 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 2: might get the mark, you you might get that cool 397 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 2: design you had your eye on, but you also might 398 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 2: get a flare that you did not choose. For thousands 399 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: of years, the question was who controls what's on your skin? 400 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: And for a person with soriasis, that question becomes unusually literal. 401 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 2: Sariasis asserts itself uninvited. The plaques show up where and 402 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 2: when they want. People stare, and they decide that they 403 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 2: think they know what that mark means. And then you 404 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: pick up the choice anyway. You walk into a studio 405 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: and you say, I know my skin might fight me 406 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: on this, but I'm doing it anyway. And I don't 407 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 2: want to make this sound too neatly. I don't want 408 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 2: to wrap it up in a little bow, because it's 409 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: actually not neat The reclamation of it is very real 410 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: and very very important, but so is the risk, and 411 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: so is the staring. People with siasis still get treated 412 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: like their skin is some sort of verdict, and frankly, 413 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: tattoos can attract stairs too. Tattoo or no tattoo. A 414 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: lot of folks still feel that they have to cover 415 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: up to move through the world safely. That old reflex 416 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 2: that many people have to judge a person based on 417 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: what we can digitally see has certainly not gone anywhere. 418 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 2: Even when we understand it, we still sometimes have that reaction. 419 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: So if you're here in the our skin community, you 420 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 2: talk back to that reflex here, we know that nobody 421 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: is what we can see on their outside. We're all 422 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 2: kind of like little icebergs. Much more of our truth 423 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 2: is under the surface than above it, unless, of course, 424 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: you are talking about tattoos. These are ways that we 425 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: bring our insides outside sort of. We express some of 426 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: the deepest parts of ourselves in a way that is 427 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: sharing them with others. Although that is also not necessarily 428 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: an invitation to pry about someone's tattoos. Can certainly ask 429 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: if they're comfortable with you asking questions, but just know 430 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: to always be polite and appreciate that beautiful art in 431 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: the spirit of our skin. Hammah, I have two more 432 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 2: questions for you today. We like to ask these at 433 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: the end of every episode. First, what suggestions do you 434 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 2: have for people who maybe don't have psoriasis themselves, but 435 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 2: they love someone who does and they want to support them. 436 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 3: My suggestions and advice would be to just communicate, whether 437 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 3: it is easy for your partner or not, to communicate 438 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 3: the issues that they may be haven't. But it's also 439 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 3: that understanding of the condition itself. Educate yourself as much 440 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 3: as you can. Google is an amazing thing to suppose 441 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 3: is that the or most of the information is already 442 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,719 Speaker 3: out there for you to go and look up. Sometimes 443 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 3: you just need someone that understands a little bit more, honors, 444 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 3: empathetic towards the struggles that can come with the condition 445 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 3: as well. 446 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: Great, and last, but not least, if you could send 447 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: one message to listeners who might be grappling with their 448 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: own diagnosis, what would it be. 449 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 3: My message to anyone who might be further at difficult 450 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 3: with the diagnosis is that it does not take away 451 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 3: from who you are. You are uniquely yourself with or 452 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 3: without the condition. Do not let it define you. And 453 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: if in some ways it does define you, run with it. 454 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 3: You are amazing. It's a part of who you are, 455 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 3: and don't let it take away from any other aspects 456 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 3: of your life. Do what you want to do, Let 457 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 3: your skin breathe, let it show. The more people that 458 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 3: understand the condition, the more we're all going to be 459 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 3: in a better place overall. In my opinion, as said, 460 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 3: you are uniquely you. Your skin does not define who you 461 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 3: are as a person at all. 462 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 2: Hannah, I am so delighted to have had you with 463 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 2: us today on our skin, and to have somebody who 464 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 2: loves tattoos as much as me. So think you think 465 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 2: you thank you. I cannot tell you how delighted I 466 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: am to talk to you. 467 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 3: I thank you so much for having me. It's been 468 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 3: an absolute honor. Any information that you can get out 469 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 3: there is positive in my eyes, and the more information 470 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 3: we have out about critis in general, there is no absolute. 471 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 2: Heart at all. 472 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 3: So I am forever grateful. Fully is top of me. 473 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 2: Our Skin is hosted by myself, Holly Frye, and executive 474 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: produced and engineered by Ryan Martz. Our executive producer and 475 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 2: writer is Meredith Barnes. If you enjoy the show, share 476 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: it with your friends. You can also listen and follow 477 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 478 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 2: your podcasts.