1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: It was with great sadness that Klist and I learned 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: about the passing of Henry Kissinger. Henry been a good 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 1: friend for many, many years, was always a source of 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: life and excitement and enthusiasm. Had a remarkable career. There 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: are so many things you could say about him. He 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: was almost certainly the greatest diplomat America ever produced. His 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: achievements in any of the Vietnam War, in opening up 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: the relations with China, in helping Israel survive the surprise 9 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: attack on yam Kapur in nineteen seventy four, in balancing 10 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: off the Russians again and again. Kissinger was a master 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: of thinking through how to develop a strategy and how 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: to implement it. And he was superb at having personal relationships. 13 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: The last couple of times I talked with Henry, he 14 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: was still annually having dinner with Jijiping in China and 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: with Putin in Russia, and at This was part of 16 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: the life he had developed. He managed from the time 17 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: he stepped down in nineteen seventy seven, he managed to 18 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: remain relevant to virtually everything going on around the world, 19 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: consulting with presidents, consulting with foreign leaders. Having written a 20 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: whole series of books. He was just a remarkable human being, 21 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: a man who had been born into Germany in the 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: late nineteen twenties, who was nine years old when Adolf 23 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: Hickler became leader of Germany, migrated the United States with 24 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: his parents when he was fifteen, joined the US Army, 25 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: became an American citizen, served in Europe and World War Two, 26 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: and because he was fluent in German and very very bright, 27 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: ended up as an interrogator for the Gestapo and others, 28 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: and actually ran several towns as mayor during the denocification period. 29 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: Came back home, got a PhD from Harvard. His first 30 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: two books, one on how Metternich used diplomacy to balance 31 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: the world after Napoleon was defeated, the other on the 32 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: use of nuclear weapons, were both landmarks and made him 33 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: a national figure in terms of national security and foreign policy. 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: He worked with Nelson Rockefeller through three presidential campaigns, and 35 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: then he went on to work with Richard Nixon, who 36 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: had been the opponent to Rockefeller, but Nixon recognized he 37 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: was a genius, made him first national security advisor. Grisly 38 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: gave him control over the whole a national security apparatus, 39 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: made him Secretary of State, and when Gerald Ford came in, 40 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: he kept Henry. Henry was a remarkable person. I remember 41 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: one time asking him, since he was a doctor he 42 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: was secretary, what title did he like. He said, actually, 43 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: your Highness has always been one I've wanted, and if 44 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: you feel like it otherwise as call me Henry. Get 45 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: a good sense of humor. He's a wonderful person. All 46 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: of us who know him will miss him, and the 47 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: world's a little poorer not having him here. I wanted 48 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: it as a tribute to Henry and to give you 49 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: a sense of just what a remarkable person he is. 50 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to rerun the podcast that we did on 51 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 1: September eleventh, twenty twenty two. He was ninety nine years 52 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: old and he had just published Leadership six Studies in 53 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: World Strategy, which I recommend very highly. He'd also recently 54 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: published a book on artificial intelligence, which shows you that 55 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: he's quite remarkable. I remember asking him one time what 56 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: was one of his great strengths in serving on advisory 57 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: boards and boards of directors. He said, I'm not afraid 58 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: to ask really dumb questions, he said. I was in 59 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: a meeting one time early in computing, and they were 60 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: talking and I said, please tell me what this mouse is. 61 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: And later on somebody came over to him and said, 62 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you asked that question. I did not 63 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: have a clue what they were talking about, but I 64 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: didn't have the nerve to ask him. And so Henry 65 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: was willing to always be open about what he didn't know. 66 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: But he wasn't ignorant for very long, and ultimately he 67 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: knew an immense amount. I think you'll enjoy listening to 68 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger, and I'm delighted to share this remarkable podcast 69 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: with you. On this episode of Nuts World. I am 70 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: honored and delighted to have an old friend, a mentor 71 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,679 Speaker 1: somebody I've learned from for almost I guess half a century, 72 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: doctor Henry Kissinger. He is one of the most remarkable 73 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: people in modern America. At ninety nine, he has written 74 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: a new book which I recommend to everyone, called Leadership, 75 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: six Studies in World Strategy. And it's a sign of 76 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: his extraordinary life that each of the leaders is somebody 77 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: he's known personally. Henry, thank you very much for joining 78 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: me on Newts World. 79 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: You and I have known each other for many decades. 80 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 2: And I have expected your thinking and considered you. It's 81 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 2: the teaching thinking, and then it's what the Gundy importantly means. 82 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 2: So I'm happy to be here with you. 83 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: I want to start at a personal level before we 84 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: get to the book, which as you know, I've written 85 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: a review of as a newsletter and urged everyone to 86 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: look at because it's so remarkable. But first I want 87 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: to establish a couple of things. When you and your 88 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: family fled Germany to escape the Nazi regime, you were 89 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: very young. Did you have any notion that you'd have 90 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: an extraordinary life like this? 91 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: When we lived Germany, I had just turned fifteen. We 92 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: were living in that to Germany, in which, being Jewish, 93 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: we had no legal rights, and Hitler youth could beat 94 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 2: me up in the streets if that was their idea, 95 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: which occasionally happened. So when I came to America, I 96 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: had no idea that someday I might be Secretary of 97 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: State and advisor to President and senior leaders of the Congress. 98 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 2: But within the first months I experienced that I was 99 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 2: living in a country of democracy. And in high school 100 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: I wrote an essay that sometimes I medst people with 101 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: whom I grew up. But when I inflicted in America, 102 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: I can walk on the street with my head diached. 103 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: Then it was the releated experience of my life to 104 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: get to it. 105 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: You know, you became a naturalized citizen in nineteen forty three, 106 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: which by the way, is the year I was born, 107 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: and then you joined the army and received a bronze 108 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: star serving in Europe. When you came back, you ended 109 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: up amally becoming a faculty member at Harvard and created 110 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: quite a name for yourself as a young man with 111 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: several very seminal books. 112 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: We that was a sophomortd. But I had to go 113 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: through garnege again because before the war I had been 114 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: working in the shaving prosh factory and garned school at night, 115 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: and so I didn't make it to college until after 116 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: the war. 117 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: Were you able to use the GI bill after the war? 118 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: I used the GIP that I couldn't make for otherwise. 119 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: That's great. What college were you at? I was in Harvard, 120 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: So you've had a narrow educational experience getting educated and 121 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: then teaching at Harvard. 122 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: I didn't know they were any recognicants. 123 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: It's always interested me as I think you may know 124 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: I was a Rockefeller State chairman in nineteen sixty eight. 125 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: In many ways, your rise came through Nelson Rockefeller before 126 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon. How did that occur? 127 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: Nelson Acafella was especially it's due presidents now for but 128 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 2: it's called psychological strategy at that time, but it's today. 129 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: The National Security Council was divided into two buds, the 130 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: National Security Until that dealt with long range planning and 131 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: the Psychological Strategy Board that was supposed to think of 132 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: the future. And the Psychological Strategy Board was more focused 133 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: and he was focused on immediate topic. That division was 134 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: drapped after EMA. So Rackafeller was doing a report on 135 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: the future of the international work system after the Summit 136 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: meetings of nineteen fifty or whenever they took place, and 137 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: he invited me to participate and to help draft the report. 138 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 2: That's what started our relationship in friendship. 139 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: So even though you were close to Rockefeller, when Nixon 140 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: became president, he turned to you and brought you in 141 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: as a senior thinker. I think in the area he 142 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: most cared about, which was national security and foreign policy. 143 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 1: That was sort of a tribute to you to be 144 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 1: able to bridge both those personalities. 145 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: It was total surprise to be invited. I had never 146 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: met Nix, and it was very courageous of him to 147 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 2: take somebody who had beaten with the opposition to him. 148 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: And when I asked Rockefeller, but I should do this, 149 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 2: he said, Remember, he's taking a much greater is with 150 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: you than you with him. 151 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: But it worked out well, and you developed I think 152 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: one of the most unique, almost symbiotic relationships in American 153 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: White House history. Somehow you and Nixon could think through 154 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: things together and then could jointly enforce it on the 155 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: bureaucracy in a way that is really remarkable. 156 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: Well, that's very correct description he and I made every 157 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 2: morning when we were in town. It went most mornings, 158 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 2: and Nixon liked to think, I mean insisted on thinking 159 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 2: on an answering the question where are we going and 160 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 2: where are we trying to come out? And he puts 161 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: it there and take copious notes and we then implement 162 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: them in the hieraugracy, which. 163 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: I think other presents would tell you as an extraordinary achievement, 164 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: because the bureaucracy is often deeply resistant to whatever merely 165 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: elected officials want, even if it's the president. I have 166 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: to ask you, you had two parallel extraordinary things going on. 167 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: One was the negotiations in Paris, which people have often 168 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: forgotten how intricately Nixon approached trying to find a way 169 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: to get to peace with honor, which was then undone 170 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: by the Congress in nineteen seventy five. But you really 171 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: managed this constant negotiation with the Vietnamese and dot a 172 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: Nobel Peace Prize for it in nineteen seventy three. At 173 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: the same time, you are the lead figure in opening 174 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: up China. How would you rate those two and compare 175 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: those two the remarkable achievements, and you were doing both 176 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: at the same time. 177 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: Ending divor in Vietnam was a necessity in order to 178 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: help yield the divisions in the country, and it was 179 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: a necessity also so that our allies did not see 180 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: America defeated in such a major effort. This was something 181 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 2: that had to be cleaned away. Opening to China created 182 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 2: new strategic options because up to them, China and the 183 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 2: Soviet Union as Asia wasn't called, presented a united clock, 184 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: which a very the West and the Democracy. By opening 185 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 2: to China, they became gradually split, and it gave us 186 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 2: an opportunity to balance them against each other, and our 187 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: instructions to the bureaucracy were positioned yourself in such a 188 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 2: way that we are closer to both Russia and China 189 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: than they are to each other, and that for about 190 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: thirty years created a considerable stability in the relations with 191 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: both China and Russia that it is now to integrate 192 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: it now. When I say stability, the basic position of 193 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: the mixing period was that if Russia transgress, it's a 194 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: point we would resist, and we would know them we 195 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: are resisted. And on two occasions we went on alert 196 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: and we'd stopped awards in the Middle East that had 197 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: been started with Russian aggression. So while conducting a complicated diplomacy, 198 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 2: the nixt administration also conducted a complicated strategic effort that 199 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: maintained and strengthened the balance of power in the world 200 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: while moving to its speeds in Vietnam and in the 201 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: end even beginning to eat relations with Russia. 202 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: Did the opening with China strengthen your hand in Moscow 203 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: and make it easier to work with the Russians. 204 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: It strengthened our hand enormously. And one demonstration of this 205 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: is before I went to China, we had attempted to 206 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 2: discuss the Soviet interests in a summit with mixed and 207 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: the answer was that we needed to help some Soviet 208 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: purposes and burnin and other issues before they had considered 209 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: a summit. Well we know that answer. But within two 210 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: months of our opening to China, they came back and 211 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 2: offered as an unconditional summit in Moscow, in which the 212 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: whole which was the beginning of some strategic agreements, arms 213 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: control agreements, from the limitation of the major weapons of destruction. 214 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: Part of the reason that I wanted to start with 215 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: your own personal experiences that one of the things you 216 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: do that amazes me is you're a great historian. Your 217 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: original work was in history, and you've lived history. So 218 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: you were able in this new book, which I really 219 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: do recommend everybody on leadership, you're able both to talk 220 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: about people you had met and worked with personally, but 221 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: to bring to it sort of the dual perspective of 222 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: the academic and the actual practitioner. And I'm curious you 223 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: pick Conrad Adenauer, Charles de Gaulle, Richard Nixon, Nwar sadat 224 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 1: leek one, you and Margaret Thatcher. You know, there are 225 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: many other people that you knew and were with what 226 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: led you to pick these six? 227 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: These six were working in our work of cooperation, and 228 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: I would say all except one were governing in democratic states. 229 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: And that person was an Egyptian leader who made peace 230 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 2: with Israel, so he lived in that world. And I'm 231 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: described trying to describe the elements that are needed in 232 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: strengthening the international order, and that was the major purpose 233 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: of this book. I'm thinking of writing now another book 234 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: about dealing with adversaries. It's a less elevating job than 235 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 2: building him othersary. 236 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: As a child, I lived in Germany, I lived in France. 237 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: I was there when the paratroopers killed the Fourth Republic 238 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: and brought back de gaul And I read these with fascination. 239 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: And I wasn't as close to Thatcher as you were, 240 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: but she had a huge impact on the work we did, 241 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: starting with her election in nineteen seventy nine. And what 242 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: I'm struck with it makes this book, I think, so brilliant. 243 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: You're able to take each of these leaders and show 244 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: how they had a unique strategy which fit their particular 245 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: needs and which they were able to stick with it. 246 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: I mean, in some circumstances that were really extraordinarily difficult, 247 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: and of course, in the case of anwar, Sadani lost 248 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: his life following a visionary strategy. Did it strike you 249 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: at the time you were dealing with them how consistently 250 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: strategic these six people were, or did that occur later 251 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: as you look back and thought about it? 252 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: To some extent, it occurred to me while I was 253 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: dealing with them that they would exceieve me unusual people. 254 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: But the extent of their strategic thinking became clear only 255 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: with the evolution of their policies, which, as you said earlier, 256 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 2: they had to insist on vita v Their piacters is 257 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 2: in their opposition in which they managed to impose on 258 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 2: their societies. 259 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: You were once very generous and invited me to come 260 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: out to your farm and spent a weekend with leak one, 261 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: you and yourself. And I was really struck with how 262 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: he had learned things as a graduate student in Britain 263 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: that he then carried the whole rest of his life. 264 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: That he had found some key principles that he stuck 265 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: with and that created modern Singapore. Kind of remarkable. Almost 266 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: a charisma of the intellect, if you. 267 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: Will, was its belief in free markets, which no other 268 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 2: country in its region, except passively Japan, which was it 269 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: studying on its recovery, but certainly among the developing countries 270 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: in Asia, its insistence on free market principles made it 271 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: possible to build up its country to this standards. Now 272 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 2: as I. 273 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: Was struck, this may be because my childhood was so 274 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: shaped by Degaulls return in nineteen fifty eight. But of 275 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: the six of them, as sins Mede, de Gaulle is 276 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: the one who has away the strongest ego and the 277 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: greatest capacity for inventing himself. From the time he has 278 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: to flee France as a traitor to Vishi, France convinced 279 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: Churchill and Fdr to deal with him, even though he 280 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: really has no assets, and has this sense of if 281 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: somebody once said, if your name is de gaul your 282 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: Charles of France, somehow it may shape how you think 283 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: about everything. But don't you look back on that almost 284 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: with a sense of amazement that he pulled it off. 285 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 2: In retus fate when you considered that when he arrived 286 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 2: in England, he arrived really without a set of suits, 287 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: without the language. Its country had been defeated, and he 288 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 2: was the lowest rank in general in different army, and 289 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 2: he had only been made general three weeks before, so 290 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: he could emerge from this. It's the leader of the 291 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: free French. It's incredible. Churchill said to him, I'm alone 292 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: and you're alone, so we might as well have work together. 293 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: But it leads Churchill had still a country with him. Decall, 294 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 2: when it started in England had only the people that 295 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 2: had been evacuated from Dunkirk and they were free to 296 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 2: return to France. So there was I doubt that he 297 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: had a thousand people with him at the beginning. 298 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: Well, and when he does get back, and he does 299 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: become president of the new France in the Fourth Republic 300 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: after winning the war, he then has the internal requirement 301 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: to resign because, as he says, the gall can't work 302 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 1: with the pigmies of the French political class. And at 303 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: the time he thought they'd call him back in about 304 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: eighteen months, but in fact it took about a decade. 305 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: And I had this sense with Nixon that there are 306 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 1: certain people who have to follow who they are, and 307 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: therefore there's actually no downside risk because they have no alternative. 308 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if that makes any sense. 309 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: I think that's a good point. I hadn't elaborated it 310 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 2: in that way, but it is true. The difference between 311 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 2: the gall and Nixon. It's way was that Nixon was 312 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 2: a great strategic thinker, but he did not have the 313 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 2: cause capacity to move its old people. But in terms 314 00:24:53,320 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 2: of techy had great similarities. He also got along very 315 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 2: well with each other. And at a point when Nixon 316 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,239 Speaker 2: was out of office and had just been defeated in 317 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 2: running for governor of California two, he was sort of 318 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 2: being politically finished, Ticall invited him to visit him in Paris, 319 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 2: and then their relationship was resumed when it became president, 320 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: but that was less than a year before the call 321 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 2: signed again finally because he thought he had solved all 322 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 2: the big problems and he didn't want to concentrate on 323 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: all what he considered the petty problems of day to 324 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 2: day Governor. 325 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: We're chatting the week that sadly Queen Elizabeth Second passed away, 326 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: and of course she has been with on occasions, and 327 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: we earlier I had done a podcast which talked about 328 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: her relationship with Lady Thatcher, and I've brought up your 329 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: book and the point you make about Lady Thatcher that 330 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: despite being tough and public. She was actually a very 331 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: kind and generous person in private, and I think you 332 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: write that in a very loving way in your chapter 333 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: on her. 334 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 2: Well, I had greater fiction for her, and she did 335 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 2: represent its combination of extreme strengths in defending the conventions 336 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: of great humanity, in her relationship with people individually. And 337 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: actually I make the point at the end of the 338 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 2: book and the last paragraphs that one can't explain her 339 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 2: properly without including the love she had for her country 340 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: and for the importance of her country. When I met 341 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: her the first time, she had just been elected leader 342 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: of the Conservative Body, but she still had to wait 343 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: three years before she won the election. And we were 344 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 2: talking about campaigns in various democratic countries and that they 345 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: all fought for the middle ground, that everybody try to 346 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 2: achieved and compromise to it. Said that would not be 347 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 2: what she would do. She saught her responsibility as a 348 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 2: leader was to put forward her convictions and to move 349 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,959 Speaker 2: the middle ground towards her position, and not have to 350 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 2: move to the middle ground. And she maintained that all 351 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 2: her life and revolution nights to Conservative Party, and some 352 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 2: of the basic principles are still the essence of the 353 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: Conservative Party. 354 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: I was struck that she actually had an ability to 355 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: have a strategic goal and to stick to it no 356 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: matter what parallies, her friends, the news media, you name it. 357 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: I mean she knew where she was going. 358 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: I have a godilitary historic defaulted crisis when the Argentines 359 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: had taken over a British island refortance of the coast 360 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: of South America, and I had been invited to deliver 361 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: it speech at the British Foreignervis and she invited me 362 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: to tea. But before that I had had lunch with 363 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: the Foreign Secretary and with most of its advisors, and 364 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: they all were eigther it for a negotiation with Argentina, 365 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: and they had given me some options for a negotiation 366 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 2: at lunch. So when I saw her that late afternoon, 367 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: I asked a which options she favored. That she was 368 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 2: outrage at the word out and so knowing that anyone 369 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 2: could even suggest that that, I didn't dare to tell 370 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 2: her that I had cut them from her own advisers. 371 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 2: But anyway, she managed to create a fleet that went 372 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 2: all the way from Britain to the Falkland. The basic 373 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: principle was I cannot commit sovereignty to be overthrown by 374 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: military actions. It's improbably very similar we have in in 375 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 2: Ukraine today. And secondly, she thought it was important for 376 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 2: the Atlantic Alliance, for the free people who were working together, 377 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: that England did not look as if it could be 378 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 2: pushed over to a military force. And she stuck to 379 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 2: it and she achieved both of her objects. 380 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: And I think that gave her a unique status, almost 381 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: more than any prime minister since Churchill. Of somebody who 382 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: would risk everything to protect and defend Britain, she. 383 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: Was certainly in her period and after a hatiana of 384 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 2: being invited to the funeral service at Saint Paul's and 385 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 2: the Queen attended. The Queen had not attended any funeral 386 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 2: service for a prime minister except for Churchill. So it 387 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: was a wonderful example of the role of the British 388 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: monarchy because in her bearing and conduct at that funeral 389 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: she simple aged how important that you had been for 390 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 2: the country. Even though the Queen cannot take a political position, 391 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: she raised that above being a prime minister as a 392 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 2: guiding figure for British history. 393 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: Of the six people you write about, the one who 394 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: I think is both the most romantic and the most 395 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: tragic is and wor Sadan. And I thought that chapter 396 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: of your book was particularly inspiring and in essense stimulating 397 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: because you put Saddad in a context of trying to 398 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: literally change a cultural moment, not just a political moment, 399 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: and taking just enormous risk to do it. 400 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 2: I think said that would probably not have been assassinated 401 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 2: if he had negotiated with Israel on the basis of 402 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 2: immediate tactical issues. But he explained to his people and 403 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: to the monster, to the Islamic work, that the pattern 404 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 2: of thinking had to be changed if one won't to 405 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 2: make peaceful word. And where Adams had refuge to negotiate 406 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: with Israel for many decades, he not only negotiated with Israel, 407 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 2: he went to Jerusalem and made the speech in which 408 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: it said we both have to overcome rejudices and we 409 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 2: have to build such a world. And he managed to 410 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:14,720 Speaker 2: get him to negotiate a piece agreement, but too many 411 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 2: people in its own country wouldn't forgive him to his successes. 412 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 2: That it was inspiring because he had had the courage 413 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: to start a seventy three war with its real because 414 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 2: he wanted to show that he was acting from real 415 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 2: conviction and strength and then I had the negotiation with him, 416 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 2: and I was wondering how difficult that might be, because 417 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 2: up to then he I've been more of the apparently 418 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 2: more of the riding side. And so we got into 419 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 2: the negotiating room and he sat down and he said, 420 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 2: I want a new salution. I want the kittens solutions. 421 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: That was a tribute to the Secretary of State position 422 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 2: I had, which meant he warnted the American approach that 423 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 2: we want. We cannot settle this all at once, but 424 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 2: we can make peace on a country by country basis. 425 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 2: And then he did that and with our contribution, but 426 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 2: without that basic conviction to which he had come that 427 00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: you have an international order, you need some conceptually agreements, 428 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: it probably couldn't have been done. He was a movie goodality. 429 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: Well, I got the impression of all of the personality 430 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: you wrote about. He's in a sense the most transcendent, 431 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: that he had reached beyond his own experience and beyond 432 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: his own culture and had a vision and was prepared 433 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 1: to sacrifice his life for that vision. 434 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 2: And beyond the media. Tactically huge, he was in that sense, 435 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 2: he was unique. 436 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: When I wrote my newsletter about leadership and urged everybody 437 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: to go buy it. I got a note from one 438 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 1: of our readers, Mark Harvath, who wanted me to ask 439 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,879 Speaker 1: you so on behalf of Mark. He says, please ask 440 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: doctor Kissinger what he thinks of the Abraham Accords. And 441 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: he went on to say that he used to work 442 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: in the Middle East in the nineteen eighties and never 443 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: thought it'd be possible to have that kind of agreement. 444 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: I know you've talked about a little bit in some 445 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: other places, but what is your sense of the role 446 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: of the Aram Accords and the evolution of the region. 447 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 2: The Abraham Accords could be a breakthrough in the tradition 448 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 2: of what we've been talking about of what said that 449 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 2: was attempting to achieve because the countries that made it 450 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: were relatively small in size, fairly rich because of the oil, 451 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 2: but they took a broad view beyond definitely military confrontations 452 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 2: they depend importantly in their day to day life on 453 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 2: so the Arabia and Egypt as much larger countries, but 454 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 2: they took that basic step for themselves. But they have 455 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 2: achieved substantial support from Egypt and more support than it's 456 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: apparent from Saudi Arabia really on these issues they're moving 457 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 2: in the same direct and with the issue of Iran 458 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 2: coming up in the next years, and it's really important 459 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 2: agreement that links it's real to key Arab countries in 460 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 2: the way that they have been achieved previously or lid 461 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 2: that agree agreement. 462 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: Ships said that I had the sense that you wrote 463 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 1: this book on leadership in part because you instinctively are 464 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: worried that the system is less likely today to produce 465 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: leaders with this kind of capability, and that we really 466 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 1: need to think deeply about how we're going to educate 467 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: and recruit and get people to this level of historic capability. 468 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: Would that be a pretty accurate sense that you are 469 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: worried about how the system has in a sense. 470 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 2: Decayed well the system in order to do try to 471 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 2: create a system of stapility and progress within the country 472 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 2: and of international order between nations, you need visions that 473 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 2: go beyond the day to day tactical problems that arives 474 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 2: in the normal courtural events that inspire you to deal 475 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 2: with these practical problems. But remember that a vision is 476 00:39:54,080 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 2: needed to think the practical to divisionary. And in the 477 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 2: contemporary world and regredibly in most democratic countries, this visionary 478 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 2: element is declining, and these countries define their domestic practical 479 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 2: issues as the only valid once and therefore the unity 480 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 2: in the country is diminishing. And at the same time, 481 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 2: technology is producing such a change in human life for 482 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 2: which there are no categories. If you cannot develop some 483 00:40:52,840 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 2: common vision and conceptual approaches, that I would say is 484 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 2: maybe the biggest centage of a contemporary But. 485 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: I want to close with a personal note. You may 486 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: remember a while back I called you, and I think 487 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: I was seventy seven or something a time, and you're 488 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: exactly twenty years older than me, and I said, what's 489 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: your advice about getting older? And you said you're too 490 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: young to have this conversation, I would say, dealing with 491 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: you at ninety nine. First of all, this is a 492 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: book any leader at any age would be proud of. 493 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 1: It's a remarkable book. And to have you now explaining 494 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,760 Speaker 1: your next work, which I am confident will be equally brilliant, 495 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: you are truly a model of what citizenship can be like, 496 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: and somebody who's a truly historic figure. 497 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 2: I remember that many conversations we have had over the years, 498 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 2: and when you speaking, knows what I pretended in conceptual, 499 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 2: inspirational objectives you add. People think sometime do improvement over 500 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:17,919 Speaker 2: a period of decades, but you have played an important rule. 501 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: It's time from what I've been able. 502 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: To do to well, I think it's important, and you 503 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 1: are an example that I wish we had more people doing, 504 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: because each generation has to learn from prior generations or 505 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: they're doomed to repeat the mistakes and to run the risk. 506 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: And I think your body of work since leaving public 507 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: office is frankly as important a contribution to the future 508 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: of the human race as the work you did while 509 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: you were in office. 510 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 2: Well, I'm very touched by what you've said throughout this program, 511 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,479 Speaker 2: and it's really remarkable. They know, but such a long 512 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 2: period of time you have maintained. Hey, leadership puts. 513 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,720 Speaker 1: It well between us. We may get something done together 514 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: and then another twenty years from now, I want to 515 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,720 Speaker 1: call you and ask your advice. And getting older, Henry, 516 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. This has 517 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: been great fun. I hope you felt some usefulness and 518 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: some positive about doing it. In your book Leadership, Six 519 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: Studies in World Strategy, I encourage everyone to buy a copy, 520 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 1: and I hope this podcast will convince them that you 521 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: were worth learning from that. Thank you good, Thank you 522 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: to my guest Henry Kissinger. You can get a link 523 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,240 Speaker 1: to buy his new book Leadership six Studies in World 524 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: Strategy on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld 525 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: is produced by Gamers three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 526 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: producer is Guernsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 527 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley 528 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 1: special Well thanks to the team at gingridgh three sixty. 529 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to 530 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and 531 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,839 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 532 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up 533 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:20,239 Speaker 1: for my three freeweekly columns at gingristhree sixty dot com 534 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.