1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: When we talk about nineteenth century mental health reformers here 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: in the US, one of the first names that probably 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: comes to mind is Dorothea Dix. Dix was the superintendent 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: of army nurses for the Union during the Civil War, 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: and she spent decades advocating for state funded hospitals for 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: people with mental illnesses and for better treatment of people 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: in those hospitals as well as in prisons. Another reformer 11 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: who was living at the same time was Elizabeth parsons 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: Ware Packard, who actually met Dix at one point. Dix's 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: advocacy work started after she saw the conditions of the 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: East Cambridge House of Corrections in Massachusetts, where she'd been 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: asked to teach a Sunday school class. Packard's started after 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: she was in balling terrily committed to an asylum based 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: on her husband's determination that she was in the language 18 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: of the time insane. Packard met Dix while hospitalized. We 19 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: are going to talk about Packard's story over the next 20 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: two episodes, and today the focus is really on Packard 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: and her husband and how their marriage progressed from one 22 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: that was apparently happy to one that was just crumbling 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: and ultimately abusive. UM. We don't talk as much about 24 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: the mental health treatment and mental health reform in today's 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: episode as we will next time, but some of the 26 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: language that comes up as nut language we would like 27 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: we wouldn't typically just describe a person as insane today 28 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: without other context, but like that is the word that 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: was commonly used in her writing and his writing and 30 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: in the conversation at the time. Elizabeth Packard was born 31 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Parsons Where on December eighteen sixteen in where, Massachusetts. 32 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: She was the oldest surviving child field of the Reverend 33 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: Samuel Ware, who was a Congregationalist pastor. She also had 34 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: two younger brothers. The Wares were a middle class family, 35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth was given a classical education along with her brothers. 36 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: The family moved to Amherst in eighteen six and Elizabeth 37 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: went on to attend the Amherst Female Seminary. Female seminaries 38 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: where schools meant to provide women with the same higher 39 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: education that was available to men, so they were focused 40 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 1: on academics rather than being focused on becoming good homemakers 41 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: and wives. Part of Elizabeth's religious experience was the Calvinist 42 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: idea of conversion. Conversion is not, of course unique to Calvinism, 43 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: but Elizabeth's family and church community were Calvinists. Even if 44 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: a person had been baptized and attended church regularly, they 45 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: weren't considered truly a member until after experiencing a religious 46 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: conversion and publicly professing their faith. Elizabeth's conversion happened at 47 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: a revival in eighteen thirty one, but she really had 48 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: some doubt about it. Conversion was rooted in a sense 49 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: of public repentance and salvation from sin, but Elizabeth just 50 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: didn't think of herself as all that sinful, and her words, 51 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: she quote, always had been doing as well as I 52 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: knew how to do. She felt as though she had 53 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: repented for her sins as they happened, rather than waiting 54 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: for a conversion experience to do it. She feared that 55 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: her conversion was just something that was expected of her 56 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: and not something that she genuinely felt. This process of 57 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: thinking through her own religious experience in ways that contradicted 58 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: her religious community was something that she would do for 59 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: the rest of her life. Elizabeth became principle of Randolph 60 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: Academy in West Randolph, Massachusetts, after she finished her studies 61 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: at Amherst Female Seminary, but just after her nineteenth birthday, 62 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: her career was interrupted by what was described as brain fever. 63 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: This was kind of a catch all term for illnesses 64 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: with symptoms like a high fever, sensitivity to light and sound, headache, 65 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: and an excited or agitated mind. It might be applied 66 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: to real conditions like encephalitis, meningitis, and migraines, but it 67 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: was also a diagnosis given to supposedly over excited or 68 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: over exerted women. Elizabeth's family called in a doctor, but 69 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: she didn't improve right away, so on January eighteen thirty six, 70 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: her father had her admitted at the Worcester Hospital for 71 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: the Insane. According to her patient records, her father suspected 72 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: that the problem was that her corsets relaced too tightly, 73 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: and that her work as a teacher was causing quote 74 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: too much mental effort. Her doctor, Dr Samuel B. Woodward, 75 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: described Elizabeth as being calm at sometimes and mentally excited 76 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: at other times. He also said that she had sores 77 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: and a manorrhea or missed menstrual periods. He prescribed a 78 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,799 Speaker 1: range of treatments, including epsom salts and tincture of opium 79 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: for her pain. He also gave her the Griffith's mixture, 80 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: which included mir and was used to treat clarosis a 81 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: k A green sickness, which we talked about in our 82 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: episode on the Green Children of Woolpits. That was one 83 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: of those diseases that, for some reason, only women got. 84 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: Within a few weeks. Though Elizabeth seemed to be well, 85 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: her doctor described her as quote at all times now 86 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: very pleasant, and he discharged her as cured on March 87 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: eighteenth of eighteen thirty six. Elizabeth's own opinion on all 88 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: this was that her condition had been caused by the 89 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: initial treatment that she was given for brain fever, and 90 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: that she simply improved with time. The whole experience didn't 91 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: leave her with a very good opinion of conventional medicine 92 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: or of asylums. She was also profoundly embarrassed by it 93 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: and angry at her father for taking her to an asylum. 94 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,239 Speaker 1: In the nineteenth century, it was very easy for women 95 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: to be labeled as hysterical or insane, and once people 96 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: thought of you that way, that impression tended to stick. 97 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: It's not exactly a tendency that has vanished. Nope. If 98 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: people decide your shrill or hysterical, you still are no 99 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: matter how you behave Later, on May twenty one, eighteen 100 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: thirty nine, Elizabeth married the Afulist Packard, Jr. Of Shelburne, Massachusetts. 101 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: The awful List was born on February first, eighteen o two. 102 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: He was educated through tutors and schools, and through his 103 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: father's religious instruction. The Afulist Senior was a Congregationalist minister. 104 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: The younger Theophilist, spent some time as a teacher at 105 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: the age of fifteen, but he found that he did 106 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: not really have the patients for it. The Awfulist started 107 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: college when he was fifteen as well, although he was 108 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: chronically ill, so his studies were often interrupted by health issues. 109 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: Although his father was the pastor at a well established church, 110 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: the Awfulist was one of eight children, so money could 111 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: be tight, and at times the awful List had to 112 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: take a break from school so that the family could 113 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: afford tuition for his younger brother. Like his future wife, 114 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: the Offulist had some ambivalence about his own conversion. He 115 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: went to a series of revival meetings starting in eighteen nineteen, 116 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: but he never really felt the sense of conviction that 117 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: he needed you. He finally converted in eighteen twenty three 118 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: and started studying to become a minister like his father. 119 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: Unlike the elder Theophilist, he never finished a divinity degree, 120 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: but he did join his father as co pastor of 121 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: Shelburne Congregational Church in eighteen twenty eight. When the Apulist 122 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: married Elizabeth, he was thirty seven and she was twenty two. 123 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: Despite their age difference, they both had similar backgrounds. Both 124 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: their fathers were Congregationalist ministers. They were both educated and 125 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: well read, They both opposed slavery, and they both wanted 126 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: to start a family. There wasn't really a love match, 127 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: though their temperaments were very different. Elizabeth was lively and 128 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: a little unconventional, and Theophilist was very sober and reserved. 129 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: And their journals and their writings about their early married life, 130 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: Elizabeth proudly and sometimes effusively talked about their home and 131 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: their children and the clothes that she made for them, 132 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: and she did it in a very personal way. The Aphilis, 133 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: on the other hand, was very practical and analytic goal 134 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: and he detailed things like the fact that he got 135 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: married and their household expenses and all these other Monday 136 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: matters without a lot of emotion involved. Elizabeth had lots 137 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: of suitors who were closer to her age, and she 138 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: seems to have married the Apulist mostly to please her father. 139 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: The two men were longtime associates, and Theophilist had known 140 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: her since she was ten years old. The awful List, 141 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: for his part, seems to have married her because he 142 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: was an established pastor and it was simply time for 143 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: him to have a wife. In spite of all these differences, 144 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: though for the next fifteen years, their relationship seems to 145 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: have been fine. They were financially comfortable, with a nice 146 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: house on six acres of land with an orchard. Elizabeth 147 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: filled the role of a minister's wife well, helping out 148 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: in the community and teaching Sunday school and generally being 149 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: an upstanding example. She was a good housekeeper and a 150 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: good host when other ministers visited them. They had a 151 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: child every two or three years. Another Theophilist, born in 152 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: eighteen forty two, Isaac known as Ira in eighteen forty four, 153 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: Samuel in eighteen forty seven, Elizabeth known as Libby in 154 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty and George in eighteen fifty three. These were 155 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: both devoted parents, with Elizabeth raising the children and Theophilist 156 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: seeing to their religious instruction, and their life suddenly changed 157 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: in December of eighteen fifty three. And we'll get into 158 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: that after we first paused for a sponsor break. In 159 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: December of eighteen fifty three, the Afilist Packer Jr. Abruptly 160 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: resigned as co pastor of his Congregationalist church in Shelburne, Massachusetts. 161 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: The congregation tried to get him to stay, since his 162 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: father was in his eighties. By this point, it was 163 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: clear that the church was going to need entirely new 164 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: leadership if the younger Theophilist left. He refused to stay, though, 165 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: and the family packed up to move west. Neither the 166 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: Afilist nor Elizabeth really documented their reasons for his resignation 167 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: or their move, but there are several probable contributing factors. 168 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: The awful List may have thought a move would be 169 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: good for his health. He continued to have chronic illnesses 170 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: throughout his life. He had also always had some interest 171 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: in doing missionary work, which he might pursue out west, 172 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth was excited about the idea of a new 173 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: adventure and a change of scenery. Apart from that, though, 174 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: the religious environment of New England was changing. The Presbyterian Church, 175 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: which had a lot of connections to the Congregationalist, was 176 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: in the middle of a schism between the Old School 177 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: and the New School. The Old School preferred very strict 178 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: traditional Calvinism, while the New School wanted to revise various 179 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: parts of the doctrine and was influenced by the revivalism 180 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: of the second Grade Awakening. The Awful Lists firmly belonged 181 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: to the Old School, while a lot of New England's 182 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: Presbyterians were beginning to favor the New School. Calvinism in 183 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: general was also starting to fall out of favor, with Unitarian, Methodist, 184 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: and Baptist churches becoming more popular. The Awful seems to 185 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: have thought that if he went west, away from all 186 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: these new influences, he might be able to establish a 187 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: church that was more in line with his traditional Calvinist views. 188 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: It also meant that he could get his wife away 189 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: from what he regarded as the corrupting influence of all 190 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: these new denominations and unconventional doctrines. She was becoming interested 191 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: in Transcendentalism and had started learning about Unitarianism, something that 192 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: the awful Is really wanted to discourage, not just for 193 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: her but also for how she raised their children. After 194 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: they went west, they spent a few years living in 195 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: parts of Ohio and Iowa, moving every year or two. 196 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: The Offulist was immediately dissatisfied, though he learned really quickly 197 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: that a lot of people had moved west to get 198 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: away from religious conservatism, and so he did not suddenly 199 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: find himself with a thriving congregation of people to lead 200 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: who really wanted to be in like a really old 201 00:11:54,800 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: school conservative Calvinist church. People were also suspicious of him, 202 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: especially because he was a Northerner, and a lot of 203 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: people who had migrated to the areas where they were 204 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: living hailed from the south. Plus, Elizabeth discovered that she 205 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: loved being away from New England's very strict social expectations. 206 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: She could be more relaxed in her clothes and her demeanor, 207 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: and she relished all the new ideas and experiences that 208 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: she was discovering. She wrote, quote, our New England habits 209 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: have been broken up. Our mold in which we were 210 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: cast has been broken up. We have had room for 211 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: expansive growth. We were too conservative rutt thinkers there. She 212 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 1: was obviously very happy about this, But the Offulis's assessment 213 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: of all of this was that his wife was quote 214 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: unfavorably affected by the tone of society and zealously espoused 215 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: almost all new notions and wild vagaries that came along. 216 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: So the Apulist had moved west with the hope of 217 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: establishing a conservative church and distancing his wife from all 218 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: these new modes of religious and spiritual thought, and instead 219 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: the opposite was happening. She made friends with phrenologists, and 220 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: she invited Unitarian ministers to stay with them, and she 221 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: started adopting spiritualist beliefs. Soon their marriage was really starting 222 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: to show some strain. Elizabeth wanted, in her words, a 223 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: manly man who would love her and support her. She 224 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: increasingly followed the idea known as new womanhood, that a 225 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: woman should be pious, pure, domestic, and submissive, with the 226 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: household and the child rearing matters falling under her sphere 227 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: of influence. The Awfulist, on the other hand, thought his 228 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: authority was the foundation of their marriage and that Elizabeth 229 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: should submit to it in all things. He was fine 230 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: with her making decisions about the home and the children 231 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: as long as they were the same as what he 232 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: wanted her to do. Elizabeth was also aware of the 233 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: growing movement for women's rights, and she found other like 234 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: minded people wherever she lived. They encouraged her to stand 235 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: up for herself and make her opinions known to her husband. 236 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: She did more and more missionary work out in the community, 237 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: even though her husband thought she was neglecting their home 238 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: to do it. The afu List was frustrated and dismayed 239 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: by this sudden, to his mind, lack of obedience and 240 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: femininity in his wife. On top of all that, the 241 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: family started having financial trouble thanks to their series of 242 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: relocations and remodeling the houses that they moved into, and 243 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: the fact that their congregations were just a lot smaller 244 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: and less affluent than they had been back east. Eventually, 245 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: the Packards moved to Mantino, Illinois, where Theophilist's sister lived 246 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: with her husband, A Bija Dole. The off List became 247 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: pastor at Mantino's first Presbyterian church. Very shortly after the move, 248 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: before they were really even settled in, Elizabeth went to 249 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: New York with their two youngest children to visit family. 250 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: At this point, Elizabeth seems to have really genuinely needed 251 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: a break. After all this moving around and financial troubles 252 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: and her increasingly contentious marriage. She was trying to maintain 253 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: a home and take care of five children without a 254 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: lot of help. She was increasingly frustrated by her husband's 255 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: lack of support for her and her opinions, and he 256 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: had started to imply to her that he didn't think 257 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: she was in her right mind, and the fact that 258 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: he was saying this to her really frightened and upset her. 259 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: Elizabeth described herself as being at her breaking point. She 260 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: wrote that she was quote seeking what my soul needed 261 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: but could not find at home the love and sympathy 262 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: of friends. But when she got to New York, she 263 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: learned that her husband had written to her family ahead 264 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: of her trip and told them that he thought she was, 265 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: in the language of the day, insane. In New York, 266 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: Elizabeth spent a lot of time with women's rights activists 267 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: and spiritualists. She went to several seances, and at one 268 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: of them, a medium gave her a message from her 269 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: late mother, Lucy Strong Parsons where who told her to 270 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: prepare for persecution. In addition to her belief and seances 271 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: and spirit communication, all of which were totally common among 272 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: spiritualists but bizarre to Calvinists, Elizabeth came to think of 273 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: the only ghost as female and to believe that at 274 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: some point there would be a human incarnation of God 275 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: who was a woman. While she was in New York, 276 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: Elizabeth also became connected to a man named Abner Baker. 277 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: He was a Swedenborgian and they connected over matters of 278 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: religion and spirituality. They had an emotional affair carried out 279 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: through letters. Elizabeth justified this to herself by calling it 280 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: a quote harmonial marriage and something that was totally distinct 281 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: from her marriage to her husband. She described it this way, 282 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: quote can the thirsty, famishing soul help loving the pure 283 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: cold water? Neither can I help loving a pure man. 284 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: We'll get to what happened after Elizabeth got back to Illinois. 285 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: After a sponsor break, Elizabeth returned from New York to 286 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: Illinois in the early March off, and on December eighteenth 287 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: of that year, she gave birth to her last child, Arthur. 288 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: It doesn't appear that anybody questioned Arthur's paternity, and it's 289 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: also not totally clear whether Elizabeth's relationship with Abner was physical. 290 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: She did keep writing to him after she got home, though, 291 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: something that the Afulists eventually discovered after finding their letters. 292 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: Not long after Arthur's birth, the awful Ist also went 293 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: back East for about a month, and he again convinced 294 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: her family that she was mentally ill, something they did 295 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: not think was the case after her visit with them. 296 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: The Afulist church and Mantino was struggling. It was small 297 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: and it had only been in existence for four years 298 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: when he became the pastor there. At the beginning of 299 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: his time there, it didn't have a permanent meaning place, 300 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: so the congregation assembled at various schools as well as 301 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: at the Mantino Methodist Church. Meanwhile, as her husband was 302 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: struggling with this pretty small and not really established congregation, 303 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: Elizabeth was talking publicly about her views on religion, something 304 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: that her husband found embarrassing and unacceptable because what she 305 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: was saying so often contradicted what he was saying from 306 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: the pulpit, and many of these things that she was 307 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: talking about the Calvinists were heretical and dangerous. The Afulis's 308 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: brother in law, a Bija Dole, was also a deacon 309 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: at this church, and he eventually asked Elizabeth if she 310 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: would talk about her ideas in his Bible class. His 311 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: motivation seems to have been that if he let her 312 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: do this, people would see that what she was saying 313 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: was heretical nonsense, and just conclude that she was not 314 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: in her right mind. The class had six members when 315 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: she started her discussions, but before long it had picked 316 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: up to about forty new members. Soon, Theophilist and a 317 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: Bija thought Elizabeth's Bible class discussions were really dangerous. They 318 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: were having the opposite of effect of what they thought 319 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: might happen when they let her do it. Like we 320 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: said earlier, in the minds of a lot of Calvinists, 321 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: a lot of what she was talking about was heresy, 322 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 1: even though in other circles they were all totally normal ideas. 323 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: Even if it wasn't strictly heretical, it was really more 324 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: connected to her own experiences and her intuition than it 325 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: was too formal church doctrine that the awful Ist thought 326 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: they should really be focusing on. So after a while, 327 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: the awful List demanded that she stopped doing these Bible 328 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: class discussions. I love that these dudes are like forever 329 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: like trying to come up with ways to manage and 330 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: control her, and every time at backfires, It's like, no, yeah, 331 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: not so much. Elizabeth really wanted her husband's support in this, 332 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: and she told him that he should go into the 333 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: church and say, quote, my wife has just as good 334 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: a right to her opinions as you have to yours, 335 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: and I shall protect her in that right. And when 336 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: he refused to back her up, she asked the church 337 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: to release her from her membership so that she could 338 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: join the Methodist church instead, and her husband's church refused. 339 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: Having been raised Methodist, I'm like, why would you go 340 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: to the Methodists though, Like they would not really have 341 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: been into all of your spirituality and uh and for 342 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: be phrenology, but like not so much. You're going to 343 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: a medium and having saying and talking to your late mother. 344 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: It may have just seemed like the more permissive option 345 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: to Calvinists at the time, right, Yeah, It's like not 346 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: not perfect but better than what I've currently got going on. Yeah, 347 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: I don't. I also don't know if any of the 348 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: even more um liberal denominations had a church there at 349 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: that point. I maybe. Um So. At this point, the 350 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: awful List had been implying or outright saying that he 351 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: thought his wife was insane for quite some time, including 352 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,479 Speaker 1: convincing her family that she wasn't well. Elizabeth really started 353 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: to fear that her husband was going to try to 354 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: institutionalize her, so she arranged with one of her oldest 355 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: sons that he would protect her personal papers if something 356 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: happened to her. Meanwhile, the awful List started gathering all 357 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: kinds of statements from church members and doctors attesting to 358 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: their opinion that Elizabeth was not well and needed to 359 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: be committed. On eighteen sixty, he also got fifteen members 360 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: of their church to sign a letter condemning her opinions 361 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: and behavior and urging her to repent. Yeah, so, he 362 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: was basically building a case that his wife was not sane, 363 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: But he didn't actually need to do all this to 364 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: have her committed. In eighteen fifty one, Illinois had amended 365 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: an earlier law which had established mental hospitals and this amendment, 366 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: at least in theory, was to protect married women. Before 367 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: the amendment was passed, if a person was going to 368 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: be committed, a jury had to find that there was 369 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: cause to do so. But with this new amendment, a 370 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: married woman quote who in the judgment of the medical 371 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: superintendent are evidently insane or distracted, maybe received and detained 372 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: in the hospital on the request of the husband without 373 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: the evidence of insanity or distraction required in other cases. 374 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: In other words, if husband asked and the medical superintendent 375 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: of a hospital judge that his wife was insane or distracted, 376 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: she could be committed with no further investigation or evaluation 377 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: into her mental state, and without taking her feelings or 378 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: wishes into account at all. So the men who crafted 379 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: this law did so with the idea that it would 380 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: protect married women from the indignity and shame of a 381 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: public trial about their sanity. In reality, though, it made 382 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: it possible for husbands to have their wives committed with 383 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: very little effort or process, and very little to protect 384 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: married women from being committed without cause. All the awfulness 385 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: needed to do was get letters from two doctors who 386 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: agreed with him about his wife's mental state. There were 387 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: plenty of people in town who genuinely did believe that 388 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: Elizabeth's religious opinions and behavior were evidence of a mental illness, 389 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: so this was not difficult to do. There were certainly 390 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: also plenty of people who just wanted her to shut up. Ultimately, 391 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: she was forcibly committed, and here is how she described it. Quote. 392 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: Early on the morning of the eighteenth of June eighteen sixty, 393 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: as I arose from my bed, preparing to take my 394 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: morning bath, I saw my husband and approaching my door 395 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: with our two physicians, both members of his church and 396 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: of our Bible class, and a stranger, gentleman, Sheriff Burgess. 397 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: Fearing exposure, I hastily locked my door and proceeded with 398 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: the greatest dispatch to dress myself. Before I had hardly commenced, 399 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: my husband forced an entrance into my room through the 400 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: window with an axe, and I, for shelter and protection 401 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: against exposure, in a state of almost entire nudity, sprang 402 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: into bed just in time to receive my unexpected guests. 403 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: The trio approached my bed, and each doctor felt my pulse, 404 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: and without asking a single question, both pronounced me insane. 405 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: According to her husband, the doctors were not there to 406 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: assist her mental state. Those assessments had already been done 407 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: and the decision had been made. Instead, he said they 408 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: were there to determine whether she could safely travel all 409 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: the way to the hospital, which was in Jacksonville, Illinois, 410 00:23:54,840 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: two hundred miles or about kilometers away. Elizabeth's account continue quote, 411 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: I was soon in the hands of the sheriff, who 412 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: forced me from my home by ordering two men to 413 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: carry me to the wagon which took me to the depot. 414 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: Esquire LaBrie, our nearest neighbor, who witnessed this scene, said 415 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: he was willing to testify before any court under oath 416 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: that Mrs Packard was literally kidnapped. I was carried to 417 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: the cars from the depot and the arms of two 418 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: strong men who my husband appointed for this purpose, amid 419 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: the silent and almost speechless gaze of a large crowd 420 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: of citizens who had collected for the purpose of rescuing 421 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: me from the hands of my persecutors. Elizabeth was admitted 422 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: to the Illinois State Asylum and Hospital for the Insane. 423 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: Her children at this point were between the ages of 424 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: two and eighteen, and it would be three years before 425 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: she saw most of them again. So next time we 426 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: will talk about Elizabeth's time in the hospital and her 427 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: advocacy work that went on after she was discharged. I 428 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: have this moment when we're talking about particularly this last 429 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,719 Speaker 1: part of the story with the husband, know, coming in 430 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: through a window with an axe, and I'm like, who, 431 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: who is the person who has some problems going on here? Right? Well, 432 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about this more next time. Um. 433 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: But but one of the things that I read a 434 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: biography of her and like an account of this whole 435 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: situation called Elizabeth Packard A Noble Fight by Linda V. 436 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: Carlyle as I was researching this, and one of the 437 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: points that she makes was that Okay, obviously this, this 438 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: involuntary commitment, like this is a whole problem. She had 439 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: no due process, she had no protection. It was just 440 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: like her, her husband and the doctor deciding this and 441 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: forcibly removing her. Um. But if you look at both 442 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: of their writing, as their marriage was falling apart, they 443 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: both needed a break and like some treatment, Like they 444 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: were obviously both falling apart, and they were living in 445 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: a society that did not even think of things like 446 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: therapy like that wasn't even really an idea yet, but 447 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: it was like, apart from the idea of like a 448 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: mental illness that would require inpatient treatment to be successfully 449 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: managed or or treated in some way, like, there's just 450 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: the fact that like that they needed some care, both 451 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: of them, that they were not getting. So after that 452 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: infuriating last interlude of this story, I have some I think, uh, 453 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: less infuriating, not infuriating at all. Listener mail, I'm like, 454 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: how much less in Marria. So this is from Steve. 455 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: It is about our our Chester a Arthur birthplace episode. 456 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: And this is one of several um emails and tweets 457 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: and Facebook comments that we got on the subject, so 458 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: I just picked one of them. This is from Steve. 459 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: Steve says, hi there, always enjoy the show and just 460 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: had a question. On your latest podcast, you mentioned that 461 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: chester a Arthur had romantic relationships with two men while 462 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: he was a teacher. I tried to find more information 463 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: about that but couldn't find anything. I'd like to read 464 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: more about it if you had a reference for that information. 465 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for your time and no worries if it's too 466 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: much trouble to find Steve, Thank you, Steve. That is 467 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: not too much trouble at all. So what we had 468 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: said in that episode was that Chester A Arthur had 469 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: romantic friendships with two other young men while he was 470 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: uh like in his early teaching career. Um And, I 471 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: think we've talked about romantic friendships on the show before. 472 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 1: These were friendships, generally between people of the same gender, 473 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: that tended to be like more emotive and passionate than 474 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: we often think of in terms of platonic friendships today. 475 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: Um And it was not. It was just something that 476 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: was regarded as just a normal part of life and 477 00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: not really something that needed additional commentary or uh not 478 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: really viewed as um, socially questionable in anyway. It's clear 479 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: if you look at historical accounts that some people who 480 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: were outwardly fitting into this idea of romantic friendship were 481 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: really a couple. But a lot of it was more 482 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: like people who wrote each other really really passionate, affectionate letters, 483 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 1: or spooned while they were sleeping, or maybe we're physically 484 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: affectionate with each other in a way that today might 485 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,959 Speaker 1: more signify that they were a couple, but at the 486 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: time signified that they were friends, not really having like 487 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: a romantic or sexual partnership. There is in the Presidential 488 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: podcast from The Washington Post a quote from one of 489 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: the letters that he wrote to his friend Campbell Allen, Um, 490 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: which is just very affectionate. And the other source that 491 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: was like a more substantive discussion of it was one 492 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: of the sources from the episode that was Scott Greenberger's 493 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: The Unexpected President, The Life and Times of Chester a Arthur. UM. 494 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: But a lot of the papers that discussed Chester a 495 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: Arthur in general, or this whole thing about his birthplace 496 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 1: many sort of a passing reference to these very romantic 497 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: letters that he wrote to a couple of other men 498 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: when he was a young man and um. And so 499 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: it's one of those things that like comes up a lot. 500 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: The letters themselves are in the Library of Congress. So 501 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: that is that explanation regarding romantic friendships. UM. Like we said, like, 502 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: if you look at the whole arc of lgbt Q history, Uh, 503 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: there are clearly folks in that same time period who 504 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: were like in love with each other and were a 505 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: romantic couple. And we're maybe able to fly under the 506 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: radar with it by the fact that these friendships were 507 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: regarded as totally normal. But if folks had known that 508 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: it went beyond that, there would have been a lot 509 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: more stigma. So that's that if you would like to 510 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: write to us about this or any other podcast or 511 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: history podcasts and how stuff Works dot com and then 512 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: we're all over social media, miss in History. That's where 513 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: you'll find our Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and Instagram. If you 514 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: come to our website, which is missing history dot com, 515 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: you can find show notes for all the episodes that 516 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: Holly Knight have ever worked on and a searchable archive 517 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: of every episode ever. 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