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Speaker 1: Hi, it's West Kasova. We're taking a break for the

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Speaker 1: Fourth of July holiday here in the US, so we

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Speaker 1: wanted to share a favorite episode you might have missed.

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Speaker 1: It's about that most American of sports football. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for listening. I'll talk to you again tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: What you want, win or loss, we take it. It's

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Speaker 2: tough when you lose, of course, and you learn from it.

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Speaker 2: But it's more than football. It's really family. Like I

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Speaker 2: know people for three years now and these are my

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Speaker 2: best friend and my sisters. They got my back and

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Speaker 2: we do it because we happy.

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Speaker 3: These players come from all walks of life. They are nurses,

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Speaker 3: they are teachers, they are coaches. Oh, if you want

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Speaker 3: to see women playing tackle football at their best and athletic,

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Speaker 3: this is where you would go.

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Speaker 4: What we used to big.

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Speaker 1: I'm Wescsova today on the Big Take. Bloomberg Business Week

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Speaker 1: contributor Mary Palan asks us simple but not so simple question.

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Speaker 3: Why hasn't there been women's professional tackle football? Why isn't

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Speaker 3: it professionalized? Why aren't they sponsored? So women's professional football

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Speaker 3: has been around in the United States for a long time.

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Speaker 3: The Women's Football Alliance was formed in two thousand and

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Speaker 3: nine and today it has about two thousand players across

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Speaker 3: thirty two states. These are women playing full contact, full

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Speaker 3: tackle football, just so we're clear, not flag, not rugby,

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Speaker 3: not soccer. This is full tackle football.

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Speaker 1: And it's a professional league. But these players aren't doing

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Speaker 1: this full time, correct.

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Speaker 3: So there are divisions within the Women's Football Alliance for

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Speaker 3: ranging from developing teams so it's brand new, you just

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Speaker 3: started a team, to what they call the professional teams

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Speaker 3: that are playing at a higher level of competition, usually

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Speaker 3: with more experienced players, teams and coaches. Unlike the NFL,

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Speaker 3: they do not have billions of dollars of marketing and

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Speaker 3: sponsors behind them, so players often have to pay to

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Speaker 3: cover field rental, gear, travel, hotels, the basics, and most

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Speaker 3: folks are working full time jobs that are outside of football,

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Speaker 3: so practices are at night and on weekends. They really

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Speaker 3: really have to hustle to make it sustainable, which I

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Speaker 3: think is also just a big testament to how much

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Speaker 3: they obviously love the game.

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Speaker 1: And we'll be visiting a practice later in the show.

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Speaker 1: But Mary, when it comes to paying for their own gear,

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Speaker 1: I can't think of many sports that are more expensive

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Speaker 1: to suit up for than football.

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Speaker 3: Yes, football is an extremely expensive sport to become involved in.

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Speaker 3: Anyone who's not a kid who's played football understands that

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Speaker 3: as well, you've got the gear, you know, you need

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Speaker 3: to have reps and officials. The other thing with football,

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Speaker 3: and what originally kind of interested in me in this too,

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Speaker 3: is physically it's extremely demanding. There's a lot of obviously

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Speaker 3: head injuries, which is something I and others have written

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Speaker 3: about pretty extensively. And it's a rough sport, right. You

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Speaker 3: can sprain an ankle really quickly. Often you might need

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Speaker 3: pain medication, so it's not just like oh you're popping

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Speaker 3: to the gym for an hour or two. It's a

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Speaker 3: very very physically demanding sport for men and for women,

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Speaker 3: and it's very costly.

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Speaker 1: So how does it work as compared to men's professional

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Speaker 1: football when it comes to how many teams and how

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Speaker 1: many games and what's the season like?

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Speaker 3: So women's professional football starts where men's pretty much wraps up.

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Speaker 3: You know, we had the Super Bowl earlier this year.

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Speaker 3: This league is just getting started in late April and

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Speaker 3: they play throughout the spring and the summer and it

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Speaker 3: culminates in a championship that's played in Canton, Ohio at

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Speaker 3: the Football Hall of Fame in the summer. These teams

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Speaker 3: are playing all over the country. They travel extensively in

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Speaker 3: order to do so. And you know, obviously it's kind

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Speaker 3: of day and night from the NFL, right. You know,

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Speaker 3: the NFL has a massive TV deal, It has huge

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Speaker 3: stadiums with corporate seats and tons of money pumping in

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Speaker 3: from all sides, which is very much the result of

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Speaker 3: decades of work. The Women's Football Alliance. They have to

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Speaker 3: work really hard to kind of conjure up their local bases.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting when I talk to a lot

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Speaker 3: of these teams, the coaches and the players. A lot

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Speaker 3: of smaller mid city teams are really well supported because

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Speaker 3: there is not an NFL team. And unlike the WNBA,

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Speaker 3: which has a partnership with the NBA, the WFA exists

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Speaker 3: completely separately from the NFL. The NFL does not sponsor

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Speaker 3: the Women's Football Alliance, they don't partner with them, they

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Speaker 3: do not have any kind of relationship. So it's very

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Speaker 3: different than what we see in terms of the development

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Speaker 3: of women's professional basketball.

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Speaker 1: And so who does pay for it? Is it all

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Speaker 1: through sponsorship and ticket sales? Where does the money come from.

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Speaker 3: So there isn't as much money, and the structure is

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Speaker 3: pretty different than the NFL, So the NFL were pretty

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Speaker 3: familiar with. You know, there's an owner or small group

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Speaker 3: of owners who owns each team. If you follow the

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Speaker 3: command under sale, those are extremely lucrative deals. Usually a

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Speaker 3: lot of these teams are structured as nonprofits, and what

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Speaker 3: that allows the teams to do is do a lot

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Speaker 3: more grassroots fundraising, so they can go to a local

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Speaker 3: business and say, hey, cut us a check. It's a

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Speaker 3: tax right off, and you're supporting the development of women's football.

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Speaker 3: And the nonprofit model also kind of changes the culture

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Speaker 3: of the teams a little bit. One of the teams

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Speaker 3: that I talk to, you know, they have a program

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Speaker 3: where they partner with girls who play on junior and boys'

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Speaker 3: high school teams and they get to go to these games,

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Speaker 3: and then the women who play WFA football go and

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Speaker 3: support the girls at their games, especially if they hear

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Speaker 3: that there's bullying or anything else like that. So it's

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Speaker 3: a very different culture, I would argue than the NFL,

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Speaker 3: where you've got agents, you've got drafts, you've got multimillion

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Speaker 3: dollar deals. Individual players are you know, negotiating. The players

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Speaker 3: here have very very different headwinds. The WFA is not

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Speaker 3: shy about, you know, the financial disparities here which we

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Speaker 3: see across men's and women's sports. During this year Super Bowl,

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Speaker 3: they did this campaign called give Us a Second, and

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Speaker 3: it was kind of their cheeky way of pointing out

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Speaker 3: that with a half minute ad that costs seven million

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Speaker 3: dollars during the Super Bowl, a donation equivalent to what

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Speaker 3: they paid for a single second, So about two hundred

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Speaker 3: and thirty thousand dollars could sponsor entire season of women's

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Speaker 3: pro football. That isn't just like a pay gap, that's

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Speaker 3: like a pay stratosphere. That's a different, different world.

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Speaker 1: And of course it's because this league just doesn't have

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Speaker 1: the kind of following that pro football, the most popular

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Speaker 1: sport in America, doesn't. If a lot of these teams

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Speaker 1: are nonprofits, the players are paying for their own gear

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Speaker 1: and travel, and the budgets are so small, how is

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Speaker 1: it really a pro sport.

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Speaker 3: There's a long history of the debate around what is

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Speaker 3: a professional athlete. I'm thinking of the Amateur Athletic Union

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Speaker 3: AAU and a lot of the fights that runners went

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Speaker 3: up against the Olympic Committee and the nineteen seventies because

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Speaker 3: they weren't being paid to race, which is crazy when

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Speaker 3: you think about how many shoes Nike has sold on

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Speaker 3: the feet of runners, right, So I think that they

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Speaker 3: want it to be professionalized. It's like the whole mantra

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Speaker 3: from a Field of Dreams. If you build it, they

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Speaker 3: will come, has been at the root of so many

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Speaker 3: terrible stadium deals and arena deals, but here you see

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Speaker 3: them applying it. Kind of that kind of thinking to

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Speaker 3: a league. If you call it professional, if you increase

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Speaker 3: the athleticism, if you have committed athletes, if you treat

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Speaker 3: it seriously, then sponsors hopefully will as well, and fans

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Speaker 3: will want to watch as well. We say professional because

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Speaker 3: we want to see the best of anybody competing and playing.

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Speaker 3: And as it stands now, they have the whole world

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Speaker 3: of women's professional football. You know, it's them. So I

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Speaker 3: think the hope is that with time that it grows

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Speaker 3: and develops and that the players will get paid. One

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Speaker 3: of the things I think about a lot in sports

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Speaker 3: is when you show up just because things are the

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Speaker 3: way they are doesn't mean it's right or the way

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Speaker 3: things are going to stay. You know, if you look

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Speaker 3: at a sport like tennis, Serena Williams outsells most of,

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Speaker 3: if not all, of the men when she was, you know,

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Speaker 3: competing before her retirement. So we have a lot of

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Speaker 3: these assumptions about revenue and women's sports that aren't necessarily true.

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Speaker 3: Or you know, our women's national team outpaces our men

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Speaker 3: in TV ratings all the time. You know, during March

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Speaker 3: Madness with women's basketball, you saw that when they were

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Speaker 3: given decent, if not equal slots, they did amazing in

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Speaker 3: the ratings. So I think that this is also kind

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Speaker 3: of under that umbrella for me.

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Speaker 1: So when you were reporting, you spoke to a lot

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Speaker 1: of the players, What did they tell you about what

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Speaker 1: it's like to try to hold down a normal life

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Speaker 1: on top of being a professional football player.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting because I parallel a lot of

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Speaker 3: the conversations about injuries in the sport. You know, we

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Speaker 3: have this quote in the story, injuries are a part

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Speaker 3: of life, and I think a lot of women feel

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Speaker 3: that way, And I think it's always silly going back

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Speaker 3: to assumptions. You know, you know, it's really hard pregnancy,

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Speaker 3: So where do we get this idea that women can't

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Speaker 3: do tough, physical athletic things, because last I checked, for

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Speaker 3: a long long time, women's bodies were doing all sorts

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Speaker 3: of really impressive feats. And you know that said, I

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Speaker 3: think most women have to juggle a ton of stuff

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Speaker 3: all the time. They're so committed to this sport that

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Speaker 3: they were willing to make the time in addition to

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Speaker 3: caretaking duties which often fall to women, in addition to

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Speaker 3: professional ambitions. And you know, there are even some people

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Speaker 3: I talk to where their daughters play. Their son is

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Speaker 3: playing football, so they wanted to get involved as well.

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Speaker 3: So it also can become kind of a family event

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Speaker 3: the same way that a lot of sports do too,

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Speaker 3: but instead of maybe you know, the dad, it's the

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Speaker 3: mom who's really kind of leading the charge on that.

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Speaker 1: Mary. We spoke to Asia Wisecarver. She's the assistant coach

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Speaker 1: of player development with a Portland Fighting Shockwave, and here's

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Speaker 1: what she had to say.

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Speaker 5: When we get visibility and accessibility in marketing and dollars invested,

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Speaker 5: people show up, they want to play, they want to watch,

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Speaker 5: and you can see that even like the WNBA, it's

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Speaker 5: not the people this all of a sudden love women's basketball.

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Speaker 5: So people can watch basketball now, but I don't think,

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Speaker 5: you know, the interest is necessarily different.

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Speaker 1: And Mary, she's talking about people watching. Do they pack

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Speaker 1: the stands at the these games? Who are the fans?

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Speaker 3: Sure? So I'm based in Los Angeles and angel City,

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Speaker 3: which is our national women's Soccer League team, is packing

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Speaker 3: out Bank of California Stadium and it's second season. You

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Speaker 3: would think they've been playing there for twenty years. I

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Speaker 3: think it's exactly what she's talking about. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: interesting she's in Portland. So this story I reported on

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Speaker 3: the heels of something Portland. I wrote about this bar

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Speaker 3: called the Sports Bra, which is the first bar in

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Speaker 3: the country that only plays women's sports, and it's packed.

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Speaker 3: It is a great neighborhood vibe. There was a line

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Speaker 3: out the door, and I was actually there for a

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Speaker 3: Thorns game. The Portland Thorns, which is their soccer team,

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Speaker 3: is really really well supported and kind of beloved in

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Speaker 3: the community. And I think Portland is a great example

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Speaker 3: of a community that really sports. Women's sports are trying

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Speaker 3: to get a WNBA team now, and exactly it goes

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Speaker 3: back to kind of these bigger systemic issues in sports.

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Speaker 3: Are women getting the same time slots? Are they getting

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Speaker 3: the same marketing budgets? Are they getting the same ad

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Speaker 3: buys from sponsors? You know leading into these events? They

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Speaker 3: are all these things that go around sports. And this

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Speaker 3: is an anecdotal observ but I think people want to

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Speaker 3: watch great competition, men, women, old john, however you want

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Speaker 3: to slice it. Sports are stories with an uncertain outcome.

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Speaker 3: That's why we tune in to watch anything. And I

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Speaker 3: think that that's part of why when you give an

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Speaker 3: equal platform, there's drama, there's plot, you want to know

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Speaker 3: who's going to win. It's like this primal thing that's

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Speaker 3: wired into us. So I think that she's a great

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Speaker 3: example of like you know, the shockwave is right in

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Speaker 3: the heart of that. I think Portland exemplifies that definitely.

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Speaker 1: More with Mary in just a bit, but after the break,

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Speaker 1: we head to the field to watch a women's pro

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Speaker 1: football team in action, Lady Discipline. We wanted to see

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Speaker 1: what a women's pro football practice looks like. So our producers,

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Speaker 1: Michael Flarro and Mowbarrow went out to watch the DC Divas.

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Speaker 1: They're a pro team that plays in Bourbon, Virginia just

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Speaker 1: outside Washington.

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Speaker 6: Still did.

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Speaker 7: What what what like them?

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Speaker 8: My name is Hulis EPs Kingerlee known as Tig. I

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Speaker 8: am a middle linebacker. I've been playing for It is

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Speaker 8: my eleventh season playing professional tackle football my day job.

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Speaker 8: I am actually in the military, even in the military

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Speaker 8: Air Force for twenty two years. I've been playing sports

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Speaker 8: all my life, So I started playing at I think

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Speaker 8: seven years old and I was on my elementary school

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Speaker 8: basketball team with all guys. I've been playing sports with

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Speaker 8: all guys all my life. So when I found out

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Speaker 8: about the professional tackle team, I was ecstatic. It was

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Speaker 8: a dream come true for me because you know, I'm

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Speaker 8: finally able to actually play tackle football.

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Speaker 6: You clearly love it. What's the biggest draw for you?

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Speaker 9: Like?

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Speaker 6: What keeps you going coming out to these practices? Go

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Speaker 6: into games all year?

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Speaker 8: Oh man, hitting somebody, hitting somebody and it's nothing they

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Speaker 8: can do about it. They just got to get up

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Speaker 8: and keep moving. It's a stress. Weleiaving. You know, it's amazing.

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Speaker 8: It's a rush, it really is.

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Speaker 10: Felicia Donaldson, I play offensive line, right and left guard,

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Speaker 10: and for my day job, I'm a trained lawyer and

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Speaker 10: immigration However, what I'm doing right now is in the

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Speaker 10: process of starting my own nonprofit to focus on raising

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Speaker 10: awareness and women in football. So today Faith Robinson and

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Speaker 10: I she's on the defense. We visited Eastern Senior High School.

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Speaker 10: We did a presentation for their girls flag football team,

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Speaker 10: and our hope is that we continue building this relationship

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Speaker 10: with them because there's a stereotype that comes along with

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Speaker 10: female football players, and it's like to show like, no,

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Speaker 10: actually we're lawyers, we're chemists, some of us for NASA.

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Speaker 10: We have engineers, we have teachers, we have law enforcement,

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Speaker 10: we have. The gamut runs wild in terms of all

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Speaker 10: the different kinds of careers and pathways you have in

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Speaker 10: addition to being mothers, to being big sisters, aunties, caretakers

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Speaker 10: and football players. So just giving them the opportunity to

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Speaker 10: understand that you can go so far.

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Speaker 3: So it was just great. It felt like these are

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Speaker 3: my little sisters.

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Speaker 6: What's the end goal? What does it look like?

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Speaker 10: I want them to be able to get paid to play,

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Speaker 10: Like literally, that's the end goal for me. Compensation to play,

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Speaker 10: full recognition from the NFL, and for them to embrace

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Speaker 10: the women's football team, not see us as competitors, but

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Speaker 10: see us as equals.

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Speaker 1: In between the tackle drills, Michael and Moe also spoke

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Speaker 1: to some of the Divas coaches and front office staff.

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Speaker 4: Right ready, Alicia Marpha, they called me coach Ghost, and

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Speaker 4: I'm the head coach of the DC Divas. When I

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Speaker 4: was a player, I was played for the Divas for

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Speaker 4: ten years. I was a captain, but I was also

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Speaker 4: a leader on the team. At times if we didn't

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Speaker 4: have a coach, I ran the practices for the offensive line.

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Speaker 4: Captains have played a huge role on this team for

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Speaker 4: twenty years, really the backbone of the support for the

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Speaker 4: coaches in history. Generally, our coaches have been men until

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Speaker 4: past recent years. We won national championship in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 4: Alison Fisher was the first Dave to become head coach,

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Speaker 4: so it's a pretty monumental time for our team. That

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Speaker 4: is one of my focuses is to grow women in

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Speaker 4: the sport, especially our alumni. We are about six hundred

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Speaker 4: strong alumni and there's no reason why players should retire

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Speaker 4: and not stay with the organization, whether it's marketing, COO.

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Speaker 4: Because we are a nonprofit, we have grown so much

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Speaker 4: to where we have a chief operating Officer, Director of

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Speaker 4: Football Ops and things of that. So we're just growing

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Speaker 4: and it's natural that women grow with the sport.

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Speaker 7: What would you say is the difference If someone just

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Speaker 7: walking up tonight like me, saying, what's the difference between

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Speaker 7: women's tackle football and men's tackle football, what answer would

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Speaker 7: you give them?

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Speaker 4: The playbook that these ladies learn is a definitely at

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Speaker 4: minimum a high level collegiate playbook and NFL playbook. A

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Speaker 4: lot of the staff that I have, majority of them

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Speaker 4: are all head coach caliber coaches or our head coaches

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Speaker 4: somewhere else. But these guys are our backbone. They truly

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Speaker 4: wholehardly believe in what we're doing. The difference is the

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Speaker 4: learning curve. Men have the liberty to not have to work.

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Speaker 4: They can train all day long, they can go to

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Speaker 4: football practice, train some days a week. They have a

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Speaker 4: nutrition as somebody cooking their meal, somebody driving this this

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Speaker 4: big fat salary. These women out here, they don't have that.

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Speaker 4: They don't have that. All of them have come from

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Speaker 4: a very very long workday. Majority of them are mothers

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Speaker 4: and high ranking professions, so it is a hard task

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Speaker 4: to care. They're out here until sometimes eleven thirty teve

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Speaker 4: o'clock at night. That's the difference. I think we work

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Speaker 4: a lot harder because it's not given to us.

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Speaker 10: Oh man.

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Speaker 9: My name is Susannah Brown aka Susie Brown. I am

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Speaker 9: one of the offensive line coaches and I am an analyst.

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Speaker 9: I think one of the things that is unique about

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Speaker 9: women's sports period, and I think you saw it a

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Speaker 9: lot during COVID, you know, with the bubble with the

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Speaker 9: WNBA versus the NBA. We have a lot more kids around,

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Speaker 9: and you know, because it's a lot more likely that

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Speaker 9: you have women who are going to be the primary caretaker.

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Speaker 9: So like the fact that we have kids on the sideline,

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Speaker 9: you know, during games, that practices and stuff like that.

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Speaker 9: Like that's something that I think is unique to adult

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Speaker 9: women's sports.

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Speaker 6: Has anyone ever been taken aback when they're like, oh,

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Speaker 6: you say you played tackle football, women's tackle football? What

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Speaker 6: do you say in response? How does the conversation go?

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Speaker 9: Usually there are lots of follow up questions. They automatically

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Speaker 9: want to see if I'm aggressive. That's usually some questions.

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Speaker 9: I was at a music festival and there was a

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Speaker 9: guy who's like, oh, can you hit? And I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 9: I could hit. I play that like I was. I

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Speaker 9: think I just made the All Star team that year,

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Speaker 9: And he was like proven so like I literally got

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Speaker 9: down of my stance and like he got down in

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Speaker 9: a defensive line stance and I drove her right back

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Speaker 9: and he was like, okay, all right, right, let me

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Speaker 9: try again. Let me try again. He's like, I wasn't ready.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't ready.

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Speaker 9: But it's definitely you get people who are non believers

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Speaker 9: until they see it, you know, sort of got to

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Speaker 9: see it to believe it because they've never seen it before.

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Speaker 9: I was a very aggressive basketball player, and so finding football.

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Speaker 9: The reason I play football and not basketball is the aggression. Like,

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Speaker 9: the aggression is the reason and for like, you know,

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Speaker 9: being able to hit somebody and like assert your dominance

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Speaker 9: over somebody and just like it's it's a rush on

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Speaker 9: like no other.

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Speaker 3: I'm Lois Cook.

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Speaker 7: I'm a vice president and defensive back of the DC Divas.

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Speaker 7: My day job is to grow the game.

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Speaker 6: For someone who's never been to a women's fallow game,

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Speaker 6: what do you say to them? Like, what do you say,

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Speaker 6: like why they should come out to watch a game?

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Speaker 7: First of all, it's a fun experience. We are a

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Speaker 7: family friendly organization. We have contests and giveaways.

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Speaker 3: We have kids come down and.

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Speaker 7: Do dance offs, and you know, they do a uniform

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Speaker 7: race where they try to hurry up and put on

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Speaker 7: the uniform. But what you get is you get women

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Speaker 7: out here who are not only a lot of things

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Speaker 7: during the day, but then they all come together at

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Speaker 7: night to play football. And when you have that type

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Speaker 7: of determination, you know, despite all the odds, the challenges

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Speaker 7: with lack of resources. As you see, we're practicing late

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Speaker 7: at night. There's kids out here, you know, and sometimes

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Speaker 7: you know, childcare is an issue, and so you know

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Speaker 7: it's a hurdle, but we're out here still doing it.

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Speaker 7: And when you have that type of determination and that

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Speaker 7: type of perseverance, no matter the obstacle that women aren't

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Speaker 7: still out here playing this game, you see that translate

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Speaker 7: on the field. You see the passion, you see the intensity,

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Speaker 7: and you see the grid. It's interesting because women who

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Speaker 7: play this game, they start playing typically they start playing

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Speaker 7: at eighteen years or older. So we didn't grow with

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Speaker 7: the game. We didn't have anything to funnel into this sport.

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Speaker 7: So recruiting and just finding people who want to play

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Speaker 7: is it's a big deal. We got to find them

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Speaker 7: so and it's a lot of word of mouth, so

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Speaker 7: a lot of the players have friends and family, we

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Speaker 7: put you know, social media is a big thing. We

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Speaker 7: have multiple tryouts so that people do have the opportunity

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Speaker 7: maybe they didn't see the first one.

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Speaker 3: We have three to.

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Speaker 7: Four tryouts throughout the fall season so that we can

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Speaker 7: get more people in here. Pre season will typically be,

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Speaker 7: you know, with most of the teams January through March,

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Speaker 7: where we'll.

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Speaker 3: Have three practices a week.

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Speaker 7: We'll also combine that with virtual practices, so maybe there's

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Speaker 7: one to two days virtually and then three days on

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Speaker 7: the field. And then when we get into the season,

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Speaker 7: we have two days per week on the field with

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Speaker 7: the game day being on a Saturday, and then we'll

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Speaker 7: have film study and then we'll have unit meetings virtually

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Speaker 7: as well, so we pretty.

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Speaker 3: Much use up our whole week.

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Speaker 7: I personally have four sons, they're ages three through sixteen,

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Speaker 7: and so it is a juggle, but you find a rhythm,

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Speaker 7: you know, when you are passionate and when you want

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Speaker 7: to do something and you have the love for this game,

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Speaker 7: you find a way to make it work. And so

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Speaker 7: whether you're having your kids out here with you or

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Speaker 7: whether you are you know, doing the crock pod in

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Speaker 7: the morning, because you know you're going to be at

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Speaker 7: practice at night. You find these little things to just

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Speaker 7: kind of support the game.

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Speaker 3: We used to play on.

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Speaker 7: Grass fields where we had to use our headlights from

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Speaker 7: our cars, and this is real talk, to shine light

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Speaker 7: on the field just so that we can get that

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Speaker 7: practice time in. We used to practice in a parking

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Speaker 7: lot with no grass, just doing walkthroughs because we didn't

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Speaker 7: have the resources. So we have come a long way,

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Speaker 7: and it's so important to have the support of our

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Speaker 7: community and those around us, those who support the men

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Speaker 7: who play. You know, a lot of people say that

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Speaker 7: they want to see women with these big, powerful hits,

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Speaker 7: and just like the men do, and guess what, we

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Speaker 7: do it too. We have those hits. But if you

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Speaker 7: want to see the women do better, you have to

435
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 7: invest in us.

436
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:59,360
Speaker 5: There you go, good God, that's how you run.

437
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 1: When we come back. Mary Palan talks about what it'll

438
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,199
Speaker 1: take for the Divas and other women's pro football teams

439
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:22,120
Speaker 1: to make it big. Mary, when you look at men's

440
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: professional football, so much of it now is about money,

441
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 1: huge salaries, television deals, sponsorships. With women's pro football, it

442
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: seems to still be mostly about love of the game.

443
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 3: Definitely and I think love of the game also drives

444
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 3: the men's side. I think most people don't realize the

445
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,360
Speaker 3: average NFL career is about three years, and that's if

446
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 3: you're lucky enough to make it to the NFL, which

447
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 3: obviously the vast majority of D one players do not,

448
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 3: and the vast majority of high school players do not

449
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 3: make it to a Division one program. But with the women,

450
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,479
Speaker 3: that's not even on the table as a carrot, and

451
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 3: that changes the dynamics a lot. It isn't a D

452
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 3: one scholarship sport, and there isn't some big paycheck and

453
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 3: a you know, flurry of agents that will represent you

454
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 3: and get you millions of dollars for you to earn

455
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 3: by a pretty young age. So I think that heart

456
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 3: you really feel it when you watch and you see

457
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 3: the practices, and just from a time management standpoint, I mean,

458
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 3: it's really incredible. Part of what the Women's Football Alliance

459
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 3: also has to work on is when you go to

460
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 3: the NFL, you've had years of basically being in a

461
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 3: feeder system. You know, whether it's Pop Warner or your college.

462
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 3: They often have to take players who are rugby players,

463
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 3: soccer players, et cetera, and really educate them on the game,

464
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,239
Speaker 3: on plays, on the way you move your body being

465
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 3: very different obviously with this kind of padding, you know.

466
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 3: I talked to some rugby players who were like, we

467
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 3: think it's crazy there is padding, you know in rugby.

468
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 3: We just go out there, and some say even more dangerous.

469
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 3: I don't know, I haven't seen the data. So there's

470
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 3: an educational component that also has to happen on top

471
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,239
Speaker 3: of it. And I think to do something like that

472
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 3: on top of work and family and all these other

473
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 3: things really shows that folks really love it. And it's

474
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 3: not surprising to me that the WFA has been this

475
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 3: huge feeder system for female coaches and refs in the NFL.

476
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 3: All the more surprising to me, honestly that the NFL

477
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 3: doesn't back it, because it's been this incredible pipeline of

478
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 3: talent for them, for women who really know the game

479
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 3: and really want to be immersed in it.

480
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that physical aspect of the game, because

481
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: a lot of these players are not in their young twenties.

482
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: They have a whole range of ages of people who

483
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 1: are showing up to play nationally.

484
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 3: Obviously, we're having a lot of conversations about head injuries

485
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 3: and just overall safety in men's professional football and men's

486
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 3: football at all levels. And a lot of the conversations

487
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 3: I had with players about safety were very similar to

488
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 3: those I've had with men playing the game. They love

489
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 3: the game. It's also part of the exhilaration and the

490
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 3: high of it. I think one of the things that

491
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 3: shifted is kind of what do we know about the risks?

492
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 3: You know, ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, you had a

493
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 3: professional league that was in many cases denying outright that

494
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 3: football is dangerous. I think that's you know, shifted pretty dramatically,

495
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 3: especially with the big settle ins that have been paid out.

496
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 3: You know, I grew up in a house my brother

497
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 3: played football, my dad played football. I grew up in Eugene, Oregon.

498
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 3: Football as part of life. And when I was reporting

499
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 3: this story, and what originally interested me in it was like, well,

500
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 3: what are assumptions about men and boys playing this sport

501
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 3: that we know can be really harmful? So if we're

502
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 3: saying it's okay for boys and men to do it,

503
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 3: why are we not saying women are doing it? And

504
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 3: I think we live in this interesting time with our

505
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 3: assumptions about female athletes. You know, mixed martial arts is

506
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 3: a sport I've written about, and Dana White, you know,

507
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 3: has been the face of the UFC for a long time.

508
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 3: I mean, he told me he didn't think people would

509
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 3: want to watch women beat each other up. And then

510
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 3: Ronda Rowsi and Holly Holms show up and all these

511
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 3: other you know, amazing women, Ronda Rowsi being a professionally

512
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 3: trained judo athlete, like, and she made more money than

513
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: the men, you know, for a while there. So I

514
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 3: think that that's also something that's shifting as well. And

515
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 3: also it reflects the huge fan base that the NFL

516
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 3: has actively cultivated of women who've been fans of men's football.

517
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 3: The NFL's job is to grow the game of football.

518
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 3: They have pumped a ton of money into trying to

519
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: cultivate female fans in the face of paying cheerleaders to

520
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 3: seventy five an hour, in the face of horrible domestic

521
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 3: violence cases, and I think they've been successful in a

522
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 3: lot of ways. So it's this interesting tension to me

523
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 3: between people wanting the money and the eyeballs of female fans,

524
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: But when it comes to them getting on the field,

525
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: there's still a stigma. There's still something unresolved there, and

526
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 3: these players are just smack in the middle of it.

527
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 3: You know, they're out there playing and they don't care

528
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 3: about any of that. They love the game and they

529
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 3: love playing.

530
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: Asia Wiskarfer, she's the assistant coach in Portland who we

531
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: heard from earlier, also talked about balancing that risk of

532
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: injury in football.

533
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 5: The fear is if there's an injury, regardless of what

534
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 5: it is, and I don't think it's football specific. It

535
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 5: interferes with your entire life. If you're a mother, if

536
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 5: you're a you work on your feet. There's like lots

537
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 5: of reasons why you would be considering that. But the

538
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 5: opportunity to play, I think the ROI in that is

539
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 5: so much higher that I don't think it's a evasive

540
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 5: concern that keeps people from playing, not by the time

541
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 5: they make it to the field.

542
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: Mary, I think that idea of the ROI, the return

543
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: on investment of the game and everything that they get

544
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: out of it is worth that injury risk when they

545
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: do the calculation.

546
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 3: Yes, I think the ROI of women in sports, you know,

547
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 3: you can't underestimate that. I mean, we live in a

548
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 3: culture that's constantly telling women including professional athletes. You have

549
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 3: to look a certain way. Often sports is shot by

550
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 3: men and through a male gaze, whether it's your sleek

551
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 3: ad or it's the broadcast you see on TV. And

552
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 3: I think, you know, I can't even tell you how

553
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 3: many women I've talked to across all sports, football and otherwise,

554
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 3: where it's part of the empowerment of I'm using my

555
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 3: body as a tool, I'm using it as a machine.

556
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: Mary, You've talked about how the stands are full of fans,

557
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: that people who are aware of the sport and watch

558
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 1: it really love it. What is the ambition for this league?

559
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: Do they set their sights on an NFL for women

560
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: at the same level.

561
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 3: I think it's a little unclear kind of what the

562
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 3: goal is. But I think you know, when you consider

563
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: that they call themselves professional football, when you consider that

564
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 3: they are going to have their championship game on ESPN two,

565
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 3: you know you can read between the lines and see

566
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: that you know they do want to be right up there,

567
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 3: and that's not a crazy goal. Look at where the

568
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 3: WNBA was when it started in the mid nineties and

569
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: where it is today. Look at women's soccer. I grew

570
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 3: up watching mea Ham and now there actually is a sustainable,

571
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 3: viable league after many you know, starts and stops, and

572
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 3: so I don't think that's a crazy idea that there

573
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 3: could be a league that has its own fans, it

574
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 3: has its own stars, that has its own contracts and things.

575
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: So I see no reason why they can't follow in

576
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 3: the footsteps of these other leagues that have, you know,

577
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 3: since blossomed.

578
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: When you're talking about trying to build out this league

579
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: and making it into really a more professional league, a

580
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: lot of that has to do with sponsorship. Where's the

581
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: money coming from right now, and where do they need

582
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: to take it?

583
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 3: Like it or not, it's our business, even though we

584
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 3: kind of talk about it with like a religious passion,

585
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 3: and it's a multi billion dollar industry, and right now,

586
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: the folks who write the checks for professional sports are

587
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 3: by and large white men. That means that a lot

588
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: of things like the Women's Football Alliance can get ignored.

589
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 3: And you need sponsors to grow the sport. You need

590
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: it to pay players, you need it to pay coaches,

591
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 3: you need it to procure venues, you need it to

592
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 3: make sure that doctors are around. And there's a lot

593
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 3: of room to grow there right now players are doing

594
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 3: basically their own fundraising at a very grassroots level. You know,

595
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 3: when you start a sport, that's often the case. It's

596
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 3: hard to imagine, but you know, once upon a time

597
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: the NFL was like a small niche thing. As well,

598
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 3: nothing's huge out the gate, we like it or not.

599
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: We live in a capital society and money determines a

600
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: lot of how and when things grow. You know, at

601
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: some point sponsors realize, like, wow, women are fifty percent

602
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 3: of the population and they might be interested in this,

603
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 3: and millions of people, women and men watch football and

604
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: are really interested in it, and so so often sponsors.

605
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 3: It's interesting they're often late to the game when it

606
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 3: comes to women's sports. The track record is not great

607
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 3: in terms of sponsors and broadcasters, right, so there's a

608
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 3: lot that still needs to happen, and you know, who knows.

609
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 3: I think that, you know, sports is really behind in

610
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 3: terms of representation off the field of play, and that

611
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 3: obviously impacts what happens on the field of play. So

612
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: it'll be interesting to see as this generation of women's

613
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: football a lines players kind of moves on in their careers.

614
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 3: We already know they're in the NFL and coaching capacity.

615
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: So it'll be interesting to see kind of how these

616
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 3: players and the alumni end up affecting the finances of

617
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: this that they very much have lived. When you watch

618
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: the game, it makes you realize how many assumptions you

619
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: have about football and when you watch women playing it.

620
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 3: To be honest, I went to the Cali War practice

621
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 3: and it was surreal to me because I have never

622
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 3: seen people who look like me play tackle football. I

623
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: can't even tell you how many hours of tackle football

624
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: I watched over my lifetime, right, and it made me think, well,

625
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: why haven't I seen this? You know, I read about

626
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 3: sports for living. I grew up in a football mecha.

627
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: I grew up in a football house. Like, why has

628
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 3: it taken thirty some odd years for me to see

629
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: something like this, especially when women have made such strides

630
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 3: in combat sports. So I think it's a start. I

631
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: think it's one of those stories. You know, when you're

632
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 3: writing a piece for a magazine or newspaper, part of

633
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: your brain is always like, how will this age? And

634
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: I hope that this is like a period piece. I

635
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 3: hope that I look back on this story and I'm like,

636
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I remember when I wrote about women's

637
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 3: football when people had to pay, when they were scrambling

638
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 3: for sponsors, when they were scrambling, you know, And that

639
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 3: happens in sports all the time. You write about like

640
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 3: the rookie and then they go on to win a

641
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 3: US Open or a big title or whatever. And so

642
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: I very much felt like that when I was writing

643
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 3: about this, that even though it's been around since two

644
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 3: thousand and nine, it's like this timestamp piece of like,

645
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 3: here's this snapshot of where this sport is in twenty

646
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: twenty three. Who knows where it's going to go.

647
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: Mary, Thanks so much for coming on the show.

648
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. This is fun.

649
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take.

650
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more

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Speaker 1: Vicky Rgalina. Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our producers

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Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with another big take.