1 00:00:10,450 --> 00:00:15,590 Speaker 1: So he's at Twitter the night before Christmas Eve, December 23rd. 2 00:00:16,210 --> 00:00:18,860 Speaker 1: And they've got three server farms. And if they keep 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:20,860 Speaker 1: them going, it's going to be a few million dollars 4 00:00:20,900 --> 00:00:23,459 Speaker 1: each year. And he says, let's get rid of the 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: Sacramento one. And people have been working at Twitter a 6 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: long time, engineers. He hasn't yet fired them. They say, no, 7 00:00:29,940 --> 00:00:32,460 Speaker 1: you can't pull out those servers. It'll take six months 8 00:00:32,540 --> 00:00:35,740 Speaker 1: to move those out of Sacramento. And there are rules 9 00:00:35,820 --> 00:00:41,610 Speaker 1: and regulations. I know. demon modes about to strike. But 10 00:00:41,630 --> 00:00:44,430 Speaker 1: they were trying to argue with him on it. And finally, 11 00:00:44,470 --> 00:00:50,380 Speaker 1: he just goes really angry and leaves. The next day, 12 00:00:51,020 --> 00:00:56,740 Speaker 1: Christmas Eve, he's on his plane flying from San Francisco 13 00:00:56,980 --> 00:01:01,730 Speaker 1: to Austin, bringing these two cousins. And as they're flying over, 14 00:01:01,740 --> 00:01:05,130 Speaker 1: you know, Nevada, one of them says, why don't we 15 00:01:05,170 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: just take those servers out ourselves? And Musk goes into 16 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: giddy mode and turns the plane around, goes right to Sacramento. 17 00:01:13,380 --> 00:01:17,820 Speaker 1: They get to this server facility. It's the afternoon of 18 00:01:17,860 --> 00:01:21,610 Speaker 1: Christmas Eve, so nobody's really working. And it's a facility 19 00:01:21,630 --> 00:01:23,870 Speaker 1: that has servers of other companies as well, so it's 20 00:01:23,890 --> 00:01:27,610 Speaker 1: hard to get into. But being Musk, he just finds 21 00:01:27,650 --> 00:01:30,300 Speaker 1: somebody and makes them let him in. And he says, 22 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,060 Speaker 1: we're going to take these servers out. And they said, 23 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: we can't. You need an electrician to open the floorboard 24 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,420 Speaker 1: and somebody to cut off the cables and somebody who 25 00:01:37,459 --> 00:01:42,250 Speaker 1: can handle the dollies. Musk turns to his security guard 26 00:01:42,270 --> 00:01:44,770 Speaker 1: and says, you got a pocket knife? And he takes 27 00:01:44,830 --> 00:01:47,290 Speaker 1: off the floorboard himself. He just pries it open from 28 00:01:47,310 --> 00:01:49,910 Speaker 1: a vent. Then he gets a pair of pliers. I 29 00:01:49,950 --> 00:01:52,190 Speaker 1: think they had gotten at Home Depot. And he cuts 30 00:01:52,870 --> 00:01:56,410 Speaker 1: the cable to the servers and waits. And nothing happens. 31 00:01:56,650 --> 00:02:01,660 Speaker 1: It's fine. So they start in a frenzy moving these 32 00:02:01,740 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: servers out on racks, on dollies, into this rental truck. 33 00:02:06,940 --> 00:02:10,950 Speaker 1: And it proves to everybody that, yes, you can do it. 34 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,190 Speaker 1: You said it was going to take six months? It 35 00:02:13,210 --> 00:02:15,190 Speaker 1: took us six hours, and we got a third of 36 00:02:15,210 --> 00:02:18,149 Speaker 1: them moved. So it gets to prove people he's hardcore 37 00:02:18,410 --> 00:02:22,890 Speaker 1: and he's intense. And then he has Ron DeSantis announced 38 00:02:22,930 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: for president. And there's no backup servers. There's no caching servers. 39 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: So the service, Twitter, goes down for 20 minutes or more. 40 00:02:33,620 --> 00:02:35,570 Speaker 1: And he says, well, I guess it was a mistake 41 00:02:35,770 --> 00:02:40,310 Speaker 1: taking a service out. But like a lot of things, 42 00:02:41,070 --> 00:02:45,290 Speaker 1: it's not clear this was a total mistake or totally brilliant. 43 00:02:45,630 --> 00:02:49,810 Speaker 1: And for me, it's a metaphor. He tends to take 44 00:02:49,910 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: risks and he tends to leave rubble in his wake. 45 00:02:58,330 --> 00:03:00,470 Speaker 2: When Walter Isaacson set out to write a biography of 46 00:03:00,610 --> 00:03:03,970 Speaker 2: Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world-changing figure, 47 00:03:04,430 --> 00:03:08,220 Speaker 2: certainly a visionary, maybe a genius. At Tesla and SpaceX, 48 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: Musk had attracted some of the most brilliant engineering minds 49 00:03:11,340 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: of our time to his side. His relentless vision and 50 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,260 Speaker 2: exacting standards had driven those companies beyond what many people 51 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:22,980 Speaker 2: thought possible. But Isaacson quickly came to see what everyone 52 00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:26,060 Speaker 2: else close to Musk already knew. Working with him came 53 00:03:26,100 --> 00:03:31,450 Speaker 2: with a cost. Musk's management style included utter derision for 54 00:03:31,490 --> 00:03:34,490 Speaker 2: work-life balance, a belief that any camaraderie at work only 55 00:03:34,570 --> 00:03:38,390 Speaker 2: weakened employees' judgment, a lack of empathy so pronounced that 56 00:03:38,430 --> 00:03:41,910 Speaker 2: Musk might tear someone down in front of everyone just 57 00:03:41,950 --> 00:03:44,500 Speaker 2: because things had gotten too calm for his comfort, and 58 00:03:44,510 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: then instantly forget about it. He was also busy seemingly 59 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: squandering his legacy by the day on Twitter. Then, of course, 60 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:57,050 Speaker 2: buying Twitter. swapping out his lofty ambitions of interplanetary colonization 61 00:03:57,350 --> 00:04:02,610 Speaker 2: and combating climate change for blue check policies and content moderation, 62 00:04:03,130 --> 00:04:04,810 Speaker 2: all while getting wrapped up in a battle with what 63 00:04:04,830 --> 00:04:10,990 Speaker 2: he called the, quote, woke mind virus. I'm Evan Ratliff, 64 00:04:11,170 --> 00:04:13,710 Speaker 2: and on this episode of On Musk with Walter Isaacson, 65 00:04:14,170 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: we ride shotgun as Isaacson encounters the darker parts of Elon, 66 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,620 Speaker 2: the earthward pole that threatens to ground his highest aspirations. 67 00:04:23,070 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: Episode two, Demons. All right, we're ready. 68 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. 69 00:04:36,070 --> 00:04:39,830 Speaker 2: There are moments in the book where he is just 70 00:04:40,089 --> 00:04:43,390 Speaker 2: reaming out someone. It's sometimes hard to tell the ones 71 00:04:43,410 --> 00:04:44,810 Speaker 2: where you're there and you're not because you have such 72 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:47,210 Speaker 2: comprehensive access to information that you can paint scenes that 73 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 2: you didn't actually witness through these various eyes. Did you 74 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,580 Speaker 2: personally witness those things? 75 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely. All the time. And I was stunned because I 76 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: thought of the Heisenberg principle, that if something's being observed, 77 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,020 Speaker 1: it's going to change its velocity or its position. And 78 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: I thought by being in the room, he wasn't going 79 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: to ream somebody out. And people were amazed, the people 80 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,669 Speaker 1: around him. That he was just as tough and as 81 00:05:14,830 --> 00:05:17,050 Speaker 1: bad and as much of an asshole or as much 82 00:05:17,070 --> 00:05:19,270 Speaker 1: of a genius when I was around. That it did 83 00:05:19,350 --> 00:05:22,010 Speaker 1: not calm him down, did not keep him from going 84 00:05:22,050 --> 00:05:23,090 Speaker 1: into demon mode. 85 00:05:24,089 --> 00:05:26,750 Speaker 2: Some of the targets on whom Musk trained his fury 86 00:05:27,089 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: were people who'd gone the furthest for him. Like one 87 00:05:29,820 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: executive named Brian Dow, who'd been a hero of one 88 00:05:32,660 --> 00:05:36,500 Speaker 2: of Musk's so-called surges. That's when Musk brings everybody into 89 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 2: the office for days or weeks of insane hours to 90 00:05:39,660 --> 00:05:41,340 Speaker 2: hit some target he's deemed crucial. 91 00:05:42,580 --> 00:05:47,980 Speaker 1: Back in 2017, when Musk went into total fury about 92 00:05:48,020 --> 00:05:51,810 Speaker 1: the battery factory in Nevada and lived there for about 93 00:05:51,930 --> 00:05:55,070 Speaker 1: three months saying, you've got to speed up this battery line. 94 00:05:55,410 --> 00:05:59,270 Speaker 1: He brings in this guy, Brian Dow, who's a can-do person. Yes, boss, 95 00:05:59,310 --> 00:06:01,610 Speaker 1: we can get rid of this machine. Yes, boss, we 96 00:06:01,650 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: can do it. He was so eager to help. And 97 00:06:04,810 --> 00:06:09,790 Speaker 1: then I was there sitting in Musk's little house, When 98 00:06:09,810 --> 00:06:12,190 Speaker 1: he calls up Brian Downs, he says, I'm moving you 99 00:06:12,310 --> 00:06:15,710 Speaker 1: to run the solar roof division. It's like, I can 100 00:06:15,730 --> 00:06:17,130 Speaker 1: do it. I can do it, chief. 101 00:06:17,670 --> 00:06:20,150 Speaker 2: Now, the solar roof division was a Musk project that 102 00:06:20,190 --> 00:06:22,820 Speaker 2: hadn't paid off so well. The basic idea was that 103 00:06:22,860 --> 00:06:26,220 Speaker 2: instead of retrofitting solar panels on houses, they would make 104 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: the roof tiles themselves into solar panels. Musk had invested in, 105 00:06:30,339 --> 00:06:33,020 Speaker 2: and then had Tesla buy, a solar roof company started 106 00:06:33,060 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: by his cousins. Not the cousins on the airplane, but 107 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: the other cousins. There were some accusations of nepotism swirling 108 00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 2: around Musk, as you might imagine. Anyway, Musk is trying 109 00:06:43,180 --> 00:06:48,250 Speaker 2: to turn Tesla into an electric energy everything company. Batteries, cars, 110 00:06:48,670 --> 00:06:51,669 Speaker 2: solar roofs. But the solar roofs are not getting installed 111 00:06:51,710 --> 00:06:54,850 Speaker 2: fast enough to scale the business. He's burned through three 112 00:06:54,890 --> 00:06:59,050 Speaker 2: executives there already. In comes Brian Dow to Boca Chica, 113 00:06:59,450 --> 00:07:01,969 Speaker 2: where Isaacson is lurking nearby in his Airstream trailer. 114 00:07:02,570 --> 00:07:06,410 Speaker 1: And one day... Bus became driven by the fact that 115 00:07:06,430 --> 00:07:11,310 Speaker 1: they had to install solar roofs faster. Just like the 116 00:07:11,350 --> 00:07:13,870 Speaker 1: assembly line for the car or the rocket. He says, 117 00:07:14,110 --> 00:07:16,370 Speaker 1: how can we speed up this step, this step, this step? 118 00:07:16,650 --> 00:07:19,390 Speaker 1: And finally, he says, all right, we're going to do 119 00:07:19,490 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: the roofs of my house and these other little tract 120 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: homes down in the south tip of Texas. And Dow 121 00:07:27,780 --> 00:07:30,780 Speaker 1: is up in, I think, Seattle or wherever he was based. 122 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,190 Speaker 1: And it's his birthday. But Musk said, OK, I need 123 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,390 Speaker 1: you back down in Boca Chica. Things aren't going well. 124 00:07:36,870 --> 00:07:40,110 Speaker 1: And he abandons his family, but he misses the connection 125 00:07:40,170 --> 00:07:43,230 Speaker 1: in Houston, has to get a car and drive six hours, 126 00:07:43,590 --> 00:07:45,140 Speaker 1: gets there late at night. 127 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:46,580 Speaker 2: It was another surge. 128 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: The task? 129 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: To get the time it took to install one roof 130 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: down from three or four days to just 24 hours. 131 00:07:53,740 --> 00:07:56,350 Speaker 2: So Dow is leading his team of fellow designer engineers 132 00:07:56,590 --> 00:07:58,330 Speaker 2: and roofers to meet the challenge. 133 00:07:58,910 --> 00:08:02,470 Speaker 1: And I remember one day, it must have been 105 134 00:08:02,470 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: in the shade, and there was no shade. And these 135 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,559 Speaker 1: roofers are working, and they have to get it done 136 00:08:09,620 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: within 24 hours. Musk goes on over to this little 137 00:08:13,940 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: subdivision by about 9 at night, and there's big industrial 138 00:08:19,020 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: lighting and cables, and there's 12 people scrambling on the roof. 139 00:08:24,210 --> 00:08:26,970 Speaker 1: And he climbs this rickety ladder to the top of 140 00:08:27,010 --> 00:08:28,970 Speaker 1: the roof. And I, of course, have to climb up 141 00:08:29,070 --> 00:08:33,540 Speaker 1: with him, you know, standing on the peak of this roof, 142 00:08:33,820 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: clinging on for dear life as these people are scurrying around. 143 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: And as always, Elon has his little son, X, who 144 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: was then about two years old. And he's just starting 145 00:08:45,230 --> 00:08:49,110 Speaker 1: to toddle on the ground amid all the cables and 146 00:08:49,150 --> 00:08:53,330 Speaker 1: the lights and the moving equipment. And I'm petrified for him. 147 00:08:53,410 --> 00:08:57,180 Speaker 1: I'm petrified for myself. And there's Elon standing at the 148 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,100 Speaker 1: peak of the roof saying, why do we need four 149 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:04,660 Speaker 1: fasteners for each of the roof tiles? Couldn't it be 150 00:09:04,740 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: done with two? And they say, well, if a hurricane 151 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:10,530 Speaker 1: comes and he's like, okay, here would be the strength 152 00:09:10,570 --> 00:09:13,349 Speaker 1: of the winds. Here's how much it would take. And 153 00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:17,210 Speaker 1: he's looking at the wiring and how it works and 154 00:09:17,270 --> 00:09:22,070 Speaker 1: trying to simplify it. And there's somebody there who's supervising 155 00:09:22,670 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: and must get furious because he believes that every person 156 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: working on a solar roof team should be on the 157 00:09:30,580 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: roof installing it. And if you're not installing it with 158 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,290 Speaker 1: your own hands, you're not really going to understand what 159 00:09:38,350 --> 00:09:41,490 Speaker 1: the problems are. And this guy is saying, well, you know, 160 00:09:41,510 --> 00:09:43,990 Speaker 1: I've done many roofs. I've watched it. He says, how 161 00:09:44,010 --> 00:09:46,689 Speaker 1: many of you actually install with your own hands? Well, none. 162 00:09:46,770 --> 00:09:50,180 Speaker 1: I'm a designer. I knew that was going to be 163 00:09:50,260 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 1: one of those triggers. And for about an hour, standing 164 00:09:54,700 --> 00:09:57,090 Speaker 1: on that roof. On the roof. And then finally we 165 00:09:57,130 --> 00:09:59,569 Speaker 1: come down on the ladder and we're standing next to 166 00:09:59,630 --> 00:10:03,179 Speaker 1: the house. and it continues for another 30 minutes. He's 167 00:10:03,540 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: reaming this guy out and finally says to Brian Dow 168 00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: that he had to be fired. We came back a 169 00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:15,420 Speaker 1: couple days later and there's another house they're doing. And 170 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: then yet another house. And I remember once it was 171 00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:22,970 Speaker 1: so hot that people were fainting, they were throwing up, 172 00:10:23,190 --> 00:10:27,270 Speaker 1: and yet they worked all day to install it within 173 00:10:27,270 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: 24 hours. And finally, Musk is satisfied, but not until 174 00:10:33,059 --> 00:10:36,460 Speaker 1: he fires Brian Dow, the guy in charge of the division, 175 00:10:37,059 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: as well as many of the people who were helping 176 00:10:40,740 --> 00:10:44,500 Speaker 1: do the roofs. And Brian talks to me afterwards and says, 177 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:47,220 Speaker 1: I tried so hard. I was so eager. He knew 178 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,220 Speaker 1: I would walk through walls with him. and yet he 179 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,939 Speaker 1: fired me. And that's the type of toughness that I 180 00:10:54,740 --> 00:11:01,750 Speaker 1: don't find easy to stomach. It really, really turned me 181 00:11:01,910 --> 00:11:06,470 Speaker 1: off when I was watching it. But I try to 182 00:11:06,590 --> 00:11:11,270 Speaker 1: describe it, and also the fact that after he kept pushing, 183 00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:14,670 Speaker 1: he was able to get them to do a solar 184 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,260 Speaker 1: roof per day. 185 00:11:16,980 --> 00:11:20,460 Speaker 2: Even after that, by the way, solar roofs... still not scalable. 186 00:11:21,020 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: After the vomiting and the passing out and the firing, 187 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,090 Speaker 2: it didn't really matter. The goal Musk had set of 188 00:11:27,090 --> 00:11:29,790 Speaker 2: 24 hours to install the roof didn't move the needle, 189 00:11:30,350 --> 00:11:33,790 Speaker 2: at least not by Silicon Valley standards. And Isaacson returns 190 00:11:33,850 --> 00:11:36,790 Speaker 2: again and again to these episodes, trying to tease out 191 00:11:36,809 --> 00:11:38,689 Speaker 2: what they mean for the people involved in them. 192 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,100 Speaker 1: And as you'll see in the book, not only did 193 00:11:42,179 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: I report those, I think in full fury of it all, 194 00:11:46,140 --> 00:11:49,150 Speaker 1: I'm not sugarcoating anything, I also went back to the 195 00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:52,110 Speaker 1: people who got totally reamed out. I'd go back a 196 00:11:52,170 --> 00:11:55,170 Speaker 1: day later and sometimes six months later, say, what did 197 00:11:55,210 --> 00:11:57,810 Speaker 1: you learn? Like, why couldn't you take it? And there's 198 00:11:57,850 --> 00:12:00,369 Speaker 1: a scene in the book of a Friday night at 199 00:12:00,470 --> 00:12:04,980 Speaker 1: Starbase where he just reams out this wonderful Southern guy, 200 00:12:05,179 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: Andy Krebs, for not having enough people working. Just chews 201 00:12:08,780 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: them up left, right, and center. And then like Dr. 202 00:12:11,820 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, a few weeks later, he doesn't 203 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,370 Speaker 1: even remember it. And he promotes Andy. But then it 204 00:12:17,530 --> 00:12:21,580 Speaker 1: keeps happening. So Andy leaves. Recently, I was in Los 205 00:12:21,660 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: Angeles and I'm signing books at the LA Times book event. 206 00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:28,660 Speaker 1: I see coming over for me. I say, that's Andy. 207 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,530 Speaker 1: I said, Andy, how are you doing? He says, I 208 00:12:31,550 --> 00:12:33,829 Speaker 1: think I'm going to go back to SpaceX. I've had 209 00:12:33,890 --> 00:12:37,530 Speaker 1: the choice of being burned out or being bored. I 210 00:12:37,550 --> 00:12:40,750 Speaker 1: decided I'd rather be burned out on such a mission. 211 00:12:40,990 --> 00:12:43,950 Speaker 2: That's amazing. Because the one that stuck with me was 212 00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:46,650 Speaker 2: the guy who was thought to have caused one of 213 00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:50,870 Speaker 2: the failed launches or crashes because he had like turned 214 00:12:50,950 --> 00:12:55,930 Speaker 2: a nut on the rocket and that had disrupted something. 215 00:12:56,370 --> 00:13:00,550 Speaker 2: And Musk actually publicly said it was him. And then 216 00:13:00,610 --> 00:13:03,209 Speaker 2: he quit. And then Musk was sort of good riddance. 217 00:13:03,250 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: He wasn't that great of an engineer. And then you 218 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,410 Speaker 2: sort of end that section by saying it turned out 219 00:13:08,030 --> 00:13:10,059 Speaker 2: it was not the turning of the nut. It wasn't him. 220 00:13:11,070 --> 00:13:17,420 Speaker 1: I know. I try to show both the fierce urgency 221 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:22,660 Speaker 1: of these things that Musk feels and that without this 222 00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:29,260 Speaker 1: crazed urgency, you wouldn't have gotten Tesla lines working as well. 223 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,750 Speaker 1: But I also sometimes show where it was just awful 224 00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:36,430 Speaker 1: the way he did these things. And it happens on 225 00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:42,150 Speaker 1: the Tesla assembly line where somebody who's totally innocent, you know, 226 00:13:42,210 --> 00:13:46,189 Speaker 1: must then fires him. And that brings up the question 227 00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:49,770 Speaker 1: that so many people ask in the book is, is 228 00:13:49,830 --> 00:13:54,060 Speaker 1: it worthwhile? Do you make that trade-off? And by the 229 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: end of the book, I kind of pretty clearly say, no, 230 00:13:57,260 --> 00:14:00,579 Speaker 1: you don't really make that trade-off. That getting to Mars 231 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,140 Speaker 1: doesn't excuse being a total asshole. But I want the 232 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,150 Speaker 1: reader to see it in action. 233 00:14:08,270 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: And right after the break... Musk manages to create a 234 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: truly unique level of Thanksgiving drama as we get into 235 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:28,850 Speaker 2: just what makes this guy tick. There's a personal aspect 236 00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:31,950 Speaker 2: which I have experienced myself as a reporter because I 237 00:14:32,010 --> 00:14:35,590 Speaker 2: tend to spend time around relatively unpleasant people and the 238 00:14:35,610 --> 00:14:38,380 Speaker 2: stuff that I write about. But the moment that you 239 00:14:38,420 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: have to experience him reaming someone out, him yelling, him 240 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,340 Speaker 2: being an asshole, you know, it's not all the time. 241 00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:48,210 Speaker 2: But what kind of persona do you go into in 242 00:14:48,250 --> 00:14:50,450 Speaker 2: that moment? I mean, this is not something I assume 243 00:14:50,470 --> 00:14:52,450 Speaker 2: you would choose in your life to be around people 244 00:14:52,490 --> 00:14:53,730 Speaker 2: who are behaving in this way. 245 00:14:54,030 --> 00:14:56,610 Speaker 1: Yeah. And there's some people who love conflict. They go 246 00:14:56,650 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: to world wrestling, you know, matches and stuff. And I'm 247 00:14:59,340 --> 00:15:02,550 Speaker 1: the opposite. I don't like seeing people fight and be 248 00:15:02,590 --> 00:15:05,930 Speaker 1: really mean. So at those moments, I kind of shrink 249 00:15:06,050 --> 00:15:08,230 Speaker 1: back a bit. I try to be a bit invisible. 250 00:15:08,430 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: And then there were a lot of personal things that 251 00:15:12,860 --> 00:15:15,300 Speaker 1: I had to figure out whether to put in the book, 252 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:20,620 Speaker 1: especially when it came to his complex relationship with women 253 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,500 Speaker 1: and the women who were the mother of his children. 254 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,170 Speaker 1: Right before Thanksgiving of 2022, Claire Boucher, the performance artist 255 00:15:29,190 --> 00:15:32,170 Speaker 1: known as Grimes, is in the hospital with a surrogate 256 00:15:32,190 --> 00:15:36,290 Speaker 1: who's having their child. But in the same hospital, Siobhan Zillis, 257 00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:41,990 Speaker 1: who runs Neuralink, is having twins that are from Elon 258 00:15:42,190 --> 00:15:45,830 Speaker 1: as a sperm donor. And they don't know that the 259 00:15:45,970 --> 00:15:48,570 Speaker 1: other is actually in the same hospital, even though they 260 00:15:48,610 --> 00:15:52,170 Speaker 1: know each other. They don't know they're both having kids 261 00:15:52,450 --> 00:15:57,060 Speaker 1: of Elon's at the same time. This is complicated emotionally. 262 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: And Elon flies off right at Thanksgiving and says, I've 263 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,260 Speaker 1: got a crisis happening with one of the engines they 264 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,580 Speaker 1: were building, and I have to go focus on it. Now, 265 00:16:06,620 --> 00:16:09,470 Speaker 1: it's like Thanksgiving Friday. You don't have to focus on it. 266 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,260 Speaker 1: But it was like rocket engines were simpler to him 267 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: than human emotions. After the book is published, you can 268 00:16:17,580 --> 00:16:21,730 Speaker 1: go on X or Twitter and see Grimes posting and 269 00:16:21,750 --> 00:16:25,350 Speaker 1: Chauvin posting and how they're all mad about this scene 270 00:16:25,390 --> 00:16:30,729 Speaker 1: in the book. But I felt that that was all 271 00:16:30,890 --> 00:16:35,220 Speaker 1: key to understanding the turmoil. Right around the time he's 272 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,460 Speaker 1: trying to get Starship launched, right around the time he's 273 00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: getting this new huge factory done in Austin, that he 274 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,590 Speaker 1: loves drama, that he lives for turmoil, and that the 275 00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:52,230 Speaker 1: personal side is in turmoil as well. And I kind 276 00:16:52,270 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: of felt you had to know it all to understand 277 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,230 Speaker 1: what was swirling around him and inside him as he's 278 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:01,990 Speaker 1: doing all this. 279 00:17:03,430 --> 00:17:07,010 Speaker 2: For Isaacson, Musk's approach to life seemed rooted in his upbringing. 280 00:17:07,770 --> 00:17:09,590 Speaker 2: What he describes in the beginning of the book as 281 00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:13,469 Speaker 2: a violent childhood with an alternately neglectful and cruel father. 282 00:17:14,369 --> 00:17:18,889 Speaker 2: At what point in your reporting did you sort of 283 00:17:19,460 --> 00:17:22,939 Speaker 2: start to get those stories and understand that you were 284 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,030 Speaker 2: going to use those stories as a way into understanding 285 00:17:26,130 --> 00:17:28,629 Speaker 2: sort of the psychology behind his work. 286 00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:33,149 Speaker 1: Elon Musk had never really talked about his childhood or 287 00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: about the difficult relationship with his father. And there'd been 288 00:17:37,660 --> 00:17:40,500 Speaker 1: profiles of him in Rolling Stone in which he says, 289 00:17:40,540 --> 00:17:45,180 Speaker 1: there's something I just can't say. And so I knew 290 00:17:45,220 --> 00:17:49,410 Speaker 1: there was a key there. And so I kept pushing on. Gently, 291 00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:53,030 Speaker 1: month after month, tell me about your dad. Tell me 292 00:17:53,050 --> 00:17:56,129 Speaker 1: about your childhood. Tell me about being beaten up. And 293 00:17:56,150 --> 00:18:01,770 Speaker 1: he'd go silent, stony-faced, and I'd stay silent. I'd try 294 00:18:01,790 --> 00:18:04,890 Speaker 1: to outlast him. Occasionally, he'd give me a little something. 295 00:18:05,450 --> 00:18:08,850 Speaker 1: And then finally, on the tenth attempt at the conversation, 296 00:18:09,850 --> 00:18:13,830 Speaker 1: we were flying somewhere, actually, and I just said, tell 297 00:18:13,850 --> 00:18:16,989 Speaker 1: me about your father. And tears came to his eyes. 298 00:18:17,850 --> 00:18:21,810 Speaker 1: And then it started to tumble out. After that, I 299 00:18:21,850 --> 00:18:24,170 Speaker 1: was able to get more and more, and of course 300 00:18:24,190 --> 00:18:27,250 Speaker 1: from his brother, Kimball, and from his father, who I 301 00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:31,250 Speaker 1: talked to, and from his mother, who said the danger 302 00:18:31,290 --> 00:18:34,750 Speaker 1: for Elon is that he becomes his father. And so 303 00:18:34,850 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: that's how that theme developed. But it wasn't something I 304 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,899 Speaker 1: could do in one, two, three, or four interviews. It 305 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,260 Speaker 1: was really a year into the reporting that slowly that 306 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: door began to open. 307 00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:48,930 Speaker 2: Well, I think that makes a big difference, to me 308 00:18:48,970 --> 00:18:51,670 Speaker 2: at least, in how you read the book, in a way, 309 00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: knowing that. Because I think he has a difficult and 310 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,419 Speaker 2: in some ways horrible father. You start out with these 311 00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:02,139 Speaker 2: scenes of violence and him being bullied in different ways. 312 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 2: And it feels different to me to know that on 313 00:19:05,940 --> 00:19:08,420 Speaker 2: day one, he didn't say to you, let me explain 314 00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:11,719 Speaker 2: myself to you. The reason I'm a jerk is because 315 00:19:11,740 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: I had this difficult upbringing, rather than that being something 316 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 2: that you pulled out of him? 317 00:19:17,980 --> 00:19:21,630 Speaker 1: I sometimes think, and this will sound a bit arrogant, 318 00:19:22,450 --> 00:19:25,990 Speaker 1: that I understand him better than he understands him. He'll 319 00:19:26,030 --> 00:19:30,250 Speaker 1: tell me, I've got emotions buried under concrete, and I 320 00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: didn't blast through them, but I slowly, slowly bore through 321 00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: them and dug through them. And yes, it's a lot 322 00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:44,470 Speaker 1: about the demons of childhood. It's also about being wired differently, 323 00:19:44,670 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: which is complicated, meaning he says he has Asperger's, which 324 00:19:47,859 --> 00:19:53,210 Speaker 1: isn't even used in the medical realm that much anymore. 325 00:19:53,510 --> 00:20:00,020 Speaker 1: He doesn't have very good input-output signals for human emotions, 326 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: and that means he was socially awkward and beaten up 327 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,500 Speaker 1: as a kid all the time. And since the book 328 00:20:06,540 --> 00:20:09,419 Speaker 1: came out, one of the things that surprises me, is 329 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,340 Speaker 1: how many people come up to me. I'll say one 330 00:20:12,380 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: of them, Andrew Yang, because he did it on his podcast. 331 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 1: But certain TV hosts will say, I have a kid 332 00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:22,340 Speaker 1: with Asperger's. And what I have to do is I 333 00:20:22,380 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: keep my arm around him at all times when we're 334 00:20:24,260 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: on baseball games or out somewhere. And I say, look 335 00:20:27,340 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: the person in the eye when he hands you the 336 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:34,660 Speaker 1: popcorn and do this. And then I realize that Musk's father, 337 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,590 Speaker 1: instead of putting his arm around him and helping him, said, 338 00:20:37,770 --> 00:20:41,830 Speaker 1: you're stupid. You're a loser. You deserve to be beaten up. 339 00:20:42,869 --> 00:20:49,980 Speaker 1: And that doesn't excuse all of must behavior. And sometimes 340 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: we confuse explaining something with excusing it. I think it's 341 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,490 Speaker 1: important to explain it. 342 00:20:57,300 --> 00:20:58,980 Speaker 2: I want to note here that this is all pretty 343 00:20:59,020 --> 00:21:03,830 Speaker 2: tricky territory. For one thing, Asperger's, as Walter notes, is 344 00:21:03,850 --> 00:21:07,450 Speaker 2: an outdated diagnostic term for one form of autism spectrum disorder. 345 00:21:07,869 --> 00:21:10,590 Speaker 2: But it's a term that some people still use to self-identify, 346 00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:15,050 Speaker 2: including Musk. And ASD in general, and what people call 347 00:21:15,130 --> 00:21:19,830 Speaker 2: Asperger's specifically, are both frequently misunderstood. Someone having trouble with 348 00:21:19,890 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: social cues obviously does not mean they lack empathy. But 349 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: challenges with social interactions can sometimes be confused for narcissism, 350 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: and vice versa. Part of what I wanted to know 351 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: from Isaacson was how he tried to navigate this territory 352 00:21:33,220 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 2: when it came to Musk and his previous subject, Steve Jobs. 353 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: I was also struck by the contrast between the Jobs 354 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,899 Speaker 2: book and this book, because Jobs also, you describe, has 355 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,619 Speaker 2: the lack of empathy. That's something that comes up in 356 00:21:46,660 --> 00:21:51,139 Speaker 2: the Jobs book a few times. But his ex-girlfriend identifies 357 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: it as narcissistic personality disorder. And she says something like, 358 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,260 Speaker 2: I realized that telling him to be less self-centered was 359 00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: like telling a blind man to see. 360 00:22:01,380 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: And by the way, this is true of Tallulah Riley, 361 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: the second wife of Elon Musk, and it's true of Grimes, 362 00:22:11,140 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: is like, no, sometimes you just can't tell. Musk would 363 00:22:14,140 --> 00:22:18,700 Speaker 1: be a different way because that is the way he's wired. 364 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:22,510 Speaker 1: Or you look at some of the great disruptors. I mean, 365 00:22:22,530 --> 00:22:27,990 Speaker 1: Bill Gates, early days of Microsoft, no empathy. You know, 366 00:22:28,050 --> 00:22:30,110 Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos could be that way. 367 00:22:30,510 --> 00:22:32,850 Speaker 2: And it is such a delicate issue because I feel 368 00:22:32,869 --> 00:22:36,409 Speaker 2: like you're careful to say he says that he has Asperger's. 369 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 2: And it's not your job, I believe, to challenge that. 370 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,460 Speaker 2: But in this case, it makes a difference whether he's 371 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,860 Speaker 2: right in terms of the explanation versus the excuse. 372 00:22:49,869 --> 00:22:53,630 Speaker 1: He has never been diagnosed. But his mother said, oh, yeah, 373 00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:57,929 Speaker 1: he definitely has Asperger's. And his brother, Campbell, says it. 374 00:22:58,130 --> 00:23:01,030 Speaker 1: And one of the things that has happened since the 375 00:23:01,070 --> 00:23:03,790 Speaker 1: Jobs book to now is we start using terms like 376 00:23:03,850 --> 00:23:09,030 Speaker 1: neurodivergent as opposed to charke. or as opposed to trying 377 00:23:09,070 --> 00:23:13,830 Speaker 1: to slap a broad label like Asperger's, Musk knows he 378 00:23:13,869 --> 00:23:17,650 Speaker 1: goes into multiple personalities and almost forgets what he has 379 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:24,420 Speaker 1: done when he's dark, depressed, or when he's, as Grimes 380 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,940 Speaker 1: puts it, in demon mode, or when he gets back 381 00:23:28,020 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: into just being engineering mode personality. There are times when 382 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,050 Speaker 1: he's friendly and joking, and times when he's inspirational, and 383 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,930 Speaker 1: times when he's laser focus like an engineer and a 384 00:23:39,990 --> 00:23:43,590 Speaker 1: monotone with a specific problem. And he also has talked 385 00:23:43,710 --> 00:23:46,910 Speaker 1: to both me and the people around him about being bipolar. 386 00:23:48,150 --> 00:23:54,609 Speaker 1: It would be useful with all of these semi-awarenesses if 387 00:23:54,690 --> 00:23:57,830 Speaker 1: he would go to a doctor, get analyzed, get treatment. 388 00:23:58,510 --> 00:24:02,230 Speaker 1: But as he says, these things are buried under layers 389 00:24:02,290 --> 00:24:04,369 Speaker 1: of concrete and I don't want to blast through them. 390 00:24:04,970 --> 00:24:08,350 Speaker 2: So when you started connecting with the family... and you 391 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,730 Speaker 2: end up talking to his father. And from a journalistic 392 00:24:12,770 --> 00:24:16,130 Speaker 2: point of view, this seems like a very difficult character 393 00:24:16,290 --> 00:24:20,649 Speaker 2: to be entangled with in terms of his connection to 394 00:24:20,670 --> 00:24:24,110 Speaker 2: the truth, but also his beliefs. How do you sort 395 00:24:24,150 --> 00:24:25,590 Speaker 2: of manage that relationship? 396 00:24:26,250 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: Well, I'm still in contact with Errol Musk, who's not 397 00:24:30,340 --> 00:24:34,180 Speaker 1: really in contact with Elon. Elon doesn't take his emails, 398 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,220 Speaker 1: doesn't speak to him. But Errol Musk is a really 399 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: good engineer, has a real feel for the physical properties 400 00:24:41,580 --> 00:24:46,030 Speaker 1: of everything from, you know, mica to steel. He's also 401 00:24:46,090 --> 00:24:50,250 Speaker 1: somebody who has been successful at times, even once owned 402 00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:54,030 Speaker 1: a Rolls Royce in South Africa and built a wilderness 403 00:24:54,090 --> 00:24:59,340 Speaker 1: camp with his kids, and at times goes through this Dr. 404 00:24:59,380 --> 00:25:02,540 Speaker 1: Jekyll to Mr. Hyde transition and has lost a whole 405 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:07,310 Speaker 1: lot of money. He's a fabulist, which means he fabricates things. 406 00:25:07,369 --> 00:25:10,090 Speaker 1: I mean, he makes himself the hero of some of 407 00:25:10,150 --> 00:25:15,610 Speaker 1: his own adventures. On the other hand, he understands that 408 00:25:15,710 --> 00:25:20,140 Speaker 1: his own son has many of these traits. And he'll say, 409 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,899 Speaker 1: when I ask him about taking this out of the 410 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: person who beat up Elon, he'll say, well, Elon deserved that, 411 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: or Elon was stupid. And he will say, I applied 412 00:25:31,780 --> 00:25:38,210 Speaker 1: a very strict authoritarian attitude towards Elon, and he does 413 00:25:38,270 --> 00:25:45,150 Speaker 1: that with other people as well. So in unraveling the 414 00:25:45,290 --> 00:25:50,300 Speaker 1: mystery and the enigma inside of Musk, you start by 415 00:25:50,380 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: peeling back the layers that come from his father, and 416 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,670 Speaker 1: you keep in mind his mother's admonition to be, which 417 00:25:58,770 --> 00:26:01,310 Speaker 1: is that the danger for Elon is that he becomes 418 00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:01,889 Speaker 1: his father. 419 00:26:02,530 --> 00:26:05,449 Speaker 2: It's interesting that she says that because there's also this 420 00:26:05,530 --> 00:26:08,889 Speaker 2: other side, which is he has a very supportive mother. 421 00:26:09,170 --> 00:26:14,020 Speaker 2: So it's not just the father. And without becoming too 422 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,700 Speaker 2: much of an armchair psychologist, I guess, because he's got these, 423 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,740 Speaker 2: let's just say, unusual relationships with women over time. And 424 00:26:23,060 --> 00:26:25,950 Speaker 2: he's got this supportive mother. What's the decision to sort 425 00:26:25,970 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: of ground it more in the bad father than in 426 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: the good mother? 427 00:26:30,619 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: Well, the mother is a wonderful character throughout the book. 428 00:26:34,340 --> 00:26:40,430 Speaker 1: But both with May, the mother, and with Elon, they're 429 00:26:40,450 --> 00:26:45,350 Speaker 1: attracted to dramatic relationships. And May will say of her 430 00:26:45,490 --> 00:26:51,540 Speaker 1: son that he can't relax and smell the flowers. He's 431 00:26:51,820 --> 00:26:56,310 Speaker 1: always attracted to the storm. to the drama. And May, 432 00:26:57,270 --> 00:27:01,770 Speaker 1: who I really like, she hasn't been in life very 433 00:27:01,850 --> 00:27:07,010 Speaker 1: good at relationships. She's attracted to people who cause problems. 434 00:27:07,710 --> 00:27:10,590 Speaker 1: And so too is it with Elon. You know, his 435 00:27:10,630 --> 00:27:15,830 Speaker 1: first wife, a truly stormy relationship, but they thrived on 436 00:27:15,930 --> 00:27:19,510 Speaker 1: fighting all the time. And he said, there's just something 437 00:27:19,570 --> 00:27:22,889 Speaker 1: about the flame. I'm always attracted to to the flame 438 00:27:22,930 --> 00:27:25,990 Speaker 1: and drama in relationships. And I ask him why. And 439 00:27:26,050 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: I ask Tallulah, his second wife, why. And Tallulah says, 440 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,859 Speaker 1: there he was growing up with his father and his 441 00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:42,090 Speaker 1: father is mentally torturing him. And somehow you internalize storm 442 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:51,429 Speaker 1: and drama with your childhood nurturing. That's probably overthinking it. 443 00:27:52,210 --> 00:27:57,909 Speaker 1: Because Kimball, his brother, you know, he's much more stable 444 00:27:58,410 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: in his relationships and in his ability to show empathy. 445 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,900 Speaker 1: Whereas Musk, he would see some calm. He'd see some 446 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,859 Speaker 1: calm on a factory line or at a launch pad, 447 00:28:12,140 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: and he'd be unhappy. He'd say, I've got to stir 448 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:15,419 Speaker 1: things up. 449 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: Up next, Twitter, and whether Musk did ever turn his 450 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 2: demon mode on Isaacson. 451 00:28:33,170 --> 00:28:37,530 Speaker 1: In April of 2022, when he's kicking around the idea 452 00:28:38,510 --> 00:28:42,410 Speaker 1: of buying Twitter, he's starting to buy the stock. And 453 00:28:42,430 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: he's going a bit dark on management, thinking maybe I'll 454 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: make a hostile offer. It was a day he opened 455 00:28:49,060 --> 00:28:54,820 Speaker 1: the Giga Texas factory. Amazing big event. And he goes 456 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:59,380 Speaker 1: out to dinner that weekend at a club called The Pershing. 457 00:28:59,660 --> 00:29:04,370 Speaker 1: Very quiet and private in an upstairs room. And it's him, 458 00:29:04,750 --> 00:29:10,770 Speaker 1: his autistic son, Saxon, his young three-year-old ex. Grimes comes 459 00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:14,190 Speaker 1: in a little bit late. May Musk, she's at the dinner. 460 00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:18,930 Speaker 1: And it's myself and a couple of other people. I'm asking, 461 00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:21,820 Speaker 1: why are you thinking of buying Twitter? And in my 462 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,700 Speaker 1: own mind, I'm thinking, that's a bad idea. But I'm 463 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,340 Speaker 1: just asking. And then everybody else is chiming in. Like, 464 00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:30,820 Speaker 1: why do you really want it? And what do you 465 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: do with it? And at some point, He says to Griffin, 466 00:29:36,530 --> 00:29:39,030 Speaker 1: one of his teenagers, do you use Twitter? He said, no, Dad, 467 00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:43,020 Speaker 1: none of my friends. use Twitter. And May Musk, you know, 468 00:29:43,060 --> 00:29:46,020 Speaker 1: his mother says, well, I use Twitter. I'm thinking, okay, 469 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,540 Speaker 1: this may be an indication of the demographic that they're 470 00:29:50,580 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: heading towards. And everybody is trying to nudge him away 471 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:06,420 Speaker 1: from going down this path, really hurting his reputation, but 472 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,110 Speaker 1: sucking up his time of trying to fix Twitter. And 473 00:30:11,210 --> 00:30:13,770 Speaker 1: all of this keeps coming out of the dinner. By 474 00:30:13,810 --> 00:30:16,230 Speaker 1: the end of the dinner, I realize, okay, he's going 475 00:30:16,250 --> 00:30:16,730 Speaker 1: to go there. 476 00:30:17,270 --> 00:30:19,730 Speaker 2: So now Isaacson has a subject on his hands who 477 00:30:19,810 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 2: isn't just an innovator, a Silicon Valley darling with some 478 00:30:22,820 --> 00:30:26,430 Speaker 2: libertarian-flecked politics. Now he's got someone gearing up to fight 479 00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:29,630 Speaker 2: a war over free speech and right-wing censorship on Twitter, 480 00:30:30,030 --> 00:30:33,130 Speaker 2: where he's about to try and manifest his original X.com 481 00:30:33,290 --> 00:30:34,730 Speaker 2: everything platform vision. 482 00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:39,570 Speaker 1: When I first started working on the Elon Musk book, 483 00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:43,870 Speaker 1: he was very well known, but not quite as controversial. 484 00:30:44,230 --> 00:30:49,820 Speaker 1: He wasn't quite as toxic or as canonized. Then the 485 00:30:49,910 --> 00:30:55,270 Speaker 1: Twitter deal happens, and that changes things. It really increases 486 00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:59,790 Speaker 1: by at least two orders of magnitude how controversial he 487 00:31:00,010 --> 00:31:05,070 Speaker 1: is and also how famous he is. So suddenly the 488 00:31:05,130 --> 00:31:09,930 Speaker 1: narrative becomes much more of a roller coaster. So it's 489 00:31:09,950 --> 00:31:12,890 Speaker 1: good for the book, but there were parts of it 490 00:31:13,150 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: that I kind of wish, hey, he was a calmer personality. 491 00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:22,390 Speaker 1: But he says, I got to keep in mind that 492 00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:25,850 Speaker 1: the mission is getting to Mars. It's not absolutely caring 493 00:31:26,290 --> 00:31:32,100 Speaker 1: about the psychological pleasures and safeties of everybody. I can 494 00:31:32,140 --> 00:31:36,380 Speaker 1: remember the time he walked into Twitter headquarters right before 495 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,479 Speaker 1: he had officially acquired it. And they're telling him what 496 00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:42,870 Speaker 1: a nurturing place it is to work. And they're saying, 497 00:31:42,890 --> 00:31:45,130 Speaker 1: you know, we've got quiet rooms and we have mental 498 00:31:45,170 --> 00:31:50,090 Speaker 1: health days off and we have yoga studios so people 499 00:31:50,150 --> 00:31:53,770 Speaker 1: can stay in balance. And then they say, and we 500 00:31:53,870 --> 00:31:58,970 Speaker 1: really value psychological safety. And Musk sort of had that 501 00:31:59,070 --> 00:32:04,010 Speaker 1: raspy laugh. And he says, psychological safety, that's our enemy. 502 00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:08,250 Speaker 1: That's an impediment. We have to have a fierce sense 503 00:32:08,430 --> 00:32:13,110 Speaker 1: of urgency. We aren't aiming for psychological safety. 504 00:32:13,710 --> 00:32:16,300 Speaker 2: The other reason Musk gives for buying Twitter, one that 505 00:32:16,340 --> 00:32:17,730 Speaker 2: he seems to get a lot of play for in 506 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: some corners of the world, is that he's fighting against 507 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,710 Speaker 2: quote-unquote wokeness. Musk has his own term for it. When 508 00:32:24,750 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 2: he talks about anti-woke mind virus, he uses that phrase. 509 00:32:29,620 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 2: And that really touches on things that have become, you know, 510 00:32:33,460 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: third rails in society in terms of how they're discussed. 511 00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: I'm curious how you kind of engaged with that idea 512 00:32:39,980 --> 00:32:41,950 Speaker 2: with him. I mean, he's someone who grew up in 513 00:32:41,970 --> 00:32:45,190 Speaker 2: apartheid South Africa. So obviously, like his views on race 514 00:32:45,750 --> 00:32:48,430 Speaker 2: and other societal issues are going to be colored by that. Like, 515 00:32:48,570 --> 00:32:50,610 Speaker 2: what does he mean when he says something like that? 516 00:32:51,250 --> 00:32:53,650 Speaker 1: Well, the way I engage with it, and you see 517 00:32:53,690 --> 00:32:56,350 Speaker 1: it in the book, is I question it. I say, 518 00:32:57,070 --> 00:33:00,650 Speaker 1: why are you following this particular conspiracy? And I'll even 519 00:33:00,670 --> 00:33:03,870 Speaker 1: talk about Occam's razor, which is the simplest explanation, maybe 520 00:33:03,910 --> 00:33:07,460 Speaker 1: the best one. Instead of thinking there's a vast conspiracy 521 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: of drug makers and COVID vaccines or people trying to 522 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,660 Speaker 1: lock down so they control government or any of these 523 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: things that he goes to, I'm not that way. I'm 524 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:25,070 Speaker 1: not conspiratorial. And I find that anti-political correctness and wokeness, 525 00:33:25,810 --> 00:33:28,030 Speaker 1: it's a little hard for me to explain because my 526 00:33:28,050 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: head's not there. You know, I think sometimes what we 527 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: call being woke is being polite and sensitive to other 528 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,660 Speaker 1: people's feelings. And I'll ask him about that. I'll say, hey, 529 00:33:39,140 --> 00:33:42,300 Speaker 1: don't you understand? You've got a daughter who transitioned. Why 530 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,770 Speaker 1: do people care about pronouns? And he'll say things when 531 00:33:46,810 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: he's in a more rational mood of, Well, I don't 532 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,980 Speaker 1: mind people using pronouns, but it gouges my eyes out 533 00:33:53,020 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: when I see it too much. I'm going, why? What's 534 00:33:55,540 --> 00:33:59,980 Speaker 1: the problem? But it's when he's in his dark moods, 535 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:07,740 Speaker 1: this eats away at him. And I describe his political 536 00:34:07,940 --> 00:34:14,210 Speaker 1: evolution from being an Obama supporter to being supporting Bobby Kennedy, 537 00:34:14,250 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: then Ron DeSantis, people who are worried about wokeness, or 538 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:23,780 Speaker 1: worried about conspiracy theories. And I never try to excuse 539 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,129 Speaker 1: it in the book. I don't excuse the rabbit hole, 540 00:34:28,930 --> 00:34:33,169 Speaker 1: going down these rabbit holes of conspiracy. I do try 541 00:34:33,210 --> 00:34:36,090 Speaker 1: to explain it from his childhood, from his father, whatever. 542 00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:43,190 Speaker 1: And then I'll tell a story about a particularly horrible 543 00:34:43,390 --> 00:34:48,569 Speaker 1: tweet he did, like, prosecute Fauci are my pronouns. I mean, 544 00:34:48,590 --> 00:34:51,989 Speaker 1: just in a few words is able to attack transgender 545 00:34:52,070 --> 00:34:57,930 Speaker 1: pronouns and Anthony Fauci. And I talk about his father 546 00:34:58,050 --> 00:35:00,299 Speaker 1: having said all these sort of things and him being 547 00:35:00,340 --> 00:35:03,100 Speaker 1: in a hot box room in Twitter, and he's going 548 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: dark and giddy. And one of the people in the 549 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:12,620 Speaker 1: room starts joking about Fauci and pronouns. And until you 550 00:35:12,860 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: read the book, I think critics can have a difficulty saying, 551 00:35:18,860 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: is he explaining it or is he excusing it? But 552 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,110 Speaker 1: if you read that anecdote or that story, you're not 553 00:35:26,130 --> 00:35:29,890 Speaker 1: going to say, Walter excused it. You're going to see 554 00:35:29,910 --> 00:35:33,650 Speaker 1: the rawness that's there sometimes in Elon Musk. 555 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,460 Speaker 2: Musk begins purging Twitter employees based on their relative, quote, hardcore-ness. 556 00:35:40,420 --> 00:35:42,980 Speaker 2: When Twitter's finally down to a quarter of its previous size... 557 00:35:43,310 --> 00:35:46,110 Speaker 2: He's created the ultimate test for his delete, delete, delete 558 00:35:46,210 --> 00:35:47,070 Speaker 2: management algorithm. 559 00:35:48,450 --> 00:35:54,390 Speaker 1: And it's a hardcore, small cadre. And that cadre of people, 560 00:35:54,489 --> 00:35:58,469 Speaker 1: you now see it at Twitter. He whittled down 80% 561 00:35:58,469 --> 00:36:02,370 Speaker 1: of the staff, but it's a very hardcore cadre that 562 00:36:02,410 --> 00:36:06,700 Speaker 1: will march through walls for him. And I think he 563 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: tests people. He drives them mad, but also drives them 564 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: to do things they didn't think they could do Did. 565 00:36:13,020 --> 00:36:16,890 Speaker 2: He ever turn his anger on you? Did you experience 566 00:36:16,989 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 2: demon mode directed at you, as you describe it? 567 00:36:19,830 --> 00:36:22,029 Speaker 1: Everybody told me he was going to turn demon mode 568 00:36:22,130 --> 00:36:26,070 Speaker 1: on me. The people who worked for him, plus Grimes 569 00:36:26,190 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: and his former wives, they'd all say, it's going to 570 00:36:29,780 --> 00:36:34,060 Speaker 1: happen to you. And if there's one small mystery, I 571 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,779 Speaker 1: can't quite figure out why it never did happen to me. Hmm. 572 00:36:38,580 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: But I didn't fill the silences. When he went dark 573 00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: and he went silent, I would just sit there. When 574 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,779 Speaker 1: he would say something provocative, I'd just ask a question. 575 00:36:51,860 --> 00:36:56,259 Speaker 1: And I don't think I did anything that would have 576 00:36:56,500 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: triggered that demon mode. But I must say, as I 577 00:37:00,060 --> 00:37:03,450 Speaker 1: watched it get triggered by people around me, I always said, 578 00:37:03,550 --> 00:37:05,210 Speaker 1: at some point, this is going to happen to me. 579 00:37:06,110 --> 00:37:08,540 Speaker 1: where he tells me I'm stupid or whatever, like he 580 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: did to some other people who worked with him. I 581 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:15,879 Speaker 1: didn't really want it to happen, but in the back 582 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: of my mind, I knew if it did, it would 583 00:37:17,780 --> 00:37:22,500 Speaker 1: be a pretty good passage in the book. And I waited, 584 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,980 Speaker 1: I waited, and I was pretty clear, having watched him 585 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: after the first few months, I knew what brought on 586 00:37:31,580 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: the storm. I knew the type of things. that would 587 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,150 Speaker 1: just set him off. And sometimes I'd see it happen. 588 00:37:38,530 --> 00:37:41,410 Speaker 1: I'd see it happen on an assembly line where some 589 00:37:42,510 --> 00:37:45,810 Speaker 1: poor young worker, there's a scene in the book where 590 00:37:45,870 --> 00:37:49,469 Speaker 1: Musk is saying, did you design this process here? And 591 00:37:49,890 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: the young guy can't figure out what he's talking about. 592 00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: So what do you mean design it? And you could 593 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,260 Speaker 1: tell Musk was about to go ballistic. And he does. 594 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: And he fires the guy for no real reason. And 595 00:38:02,180 --> 00:38:06,259 Speaker 1: I watched over and over again, Musk get triggered by 596 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:10,859 Speaker 1: people giving opinions not backed up by data, or not 597 00:38:10,940 --> 00:38:14,299 Speaker 1: understanding what he was saying, or trying to make excuses. 598 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,029 Speaker 2: Isaacson did find a few people who always seemed to 599 00:38:17,110 --> 00:38:21,630 Speaker 2: dodge Musk's flamethrower. Mark Giancosa, the California surfer type who 600 00:38:21,650 --> 00:38:25,350 Speaker 2: was a key SpaceX engineer, and Gwynne Shotwell, the president 601 00:38:25,370 --> 00:38:27,210 Speaker 2: of SpaceX for the last 20 years. 602 00:38:27,850 --> 00:38:30,850 Speaker 1: I also watched people like Mark or Gwynne, and I 603 00:38:31,610 --> 00:38:35,580 Speaker 1: learned how they did it, which wasn't being a yes person, 604 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:41,410 Speaker 1: it was just slowly and methodically making factual arguments. And 605 00:38:41,450 --> 00:38:44,330 Speaker 1: when Musk made a decision, say, fine, I get it. 606 00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:47,549 Speaker 1: But then presenting them over and over again with more 607 00:38:47,650 --> 00:38:49,730 Speaker 1: facts and saying, all right, we're going to try it 608 00:38:49,810 --> 00:38:52,130 Speaker 1: that way. But here's what we learned when we tested 609 00:38:52,190 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: it this morning. Because there are people who've been there 610 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: almost 20 years at SpaceX or at Tesla who have 611 00:39:01,100 --> 00:39:07,730 Speaker 1: never really been the object of his flamethrowing personality. But 612 00:39:08,430 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: as a few people in the books said, Yoel Roth, 613 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,620 Speaker 1: who was in charge of moderation at Twitter, Yoel told 614 00:39:16,660 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: me over and over again those first few weeks how 615 00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:21,540 Speaker 1: he had learned to deal with Musk, how it worked 616 00:39:21,620 --> 00:39:25,430 Speaker 1: out fine. And he said, I know these type of people. 617 00:39:25,930 --> 00:39:28,589 Speaker 1: He basically is saying, I know bosses that can turn 618 00:39:28,650 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: into assholes all of a sudden. I've dealt with this before. 619 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: And then finally, Yoel doesn't get fired. He doesn't get 620 00:39:36,660 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 1: reamed out. He finally says, it's just too much. I'm leaving. 621 00:39:40,860 --> 00:39:42,020 Speaker 1: It's time for me to go. 622 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 2: It kind of highlights this aspect, I think, if you 623 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 2: only hear about the incidents where Musk mistreats people, he's 624 00:39:48,820 --> 00:39:51,530 Speaker 2: an asshole, he doesn't have any empathy, you kind of wonder, 625 00:39:52,330 --> 00:39:53,630 Speaker 2: why would anyone work for him? 626 00:39:54,010 --> 00:39:57,210 Speaker 1: Over and over again, he would do things like force 627 00:39:57,250 --> 00:40:01,590 Speaker 1: a surge to stack a rocket on a launch pad, 628 00:40:01,770 --> 00:40:04,410 Speaker 1: even though there was no rush to do it, or 629 00:40:04,530 --> 00:40:10,049 Speaker 1: force a surge at one of the manufacturing plants. And 630 00:40:10,150 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: people would go through hell for about a week to 631 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,629 Speaker 1: do it, And it was exhausting. And a few would 632 00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:18,860 Speaker 1: fall by the wayside. And a couple would quit and 633 00:40:18,890 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: then decided, I'd rather be burned out than bored. And 634 00:40:23,340 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 1: so he's able to get those 20% of the people 635 00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:33,380 Speaker 1: in any workforce who are totally inspired by somebody always 636 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: in battle. And he gets a very lean team that's 637 00:40:38,340 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: willing to put up with him being cold and angry 638 00:40:42,420 --> 00:40:46,890 Speaker 1: and for those amazing moments where they feel like they're 639 00:40:46,910 --> 00:40:47,750 Speaker 1: changing the world. 640 00:40:50,989 --> 00:40:53,380 Speaker 2: In the next episode of On Musk, we turn our 641 00:40:53,420 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 2: lens on Isaacson and his process, teasing out exactly how 642 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 2: he wrote this behemoth biography, how he resists hot takes, 643 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,339 Speaker 2: even as he's surrounded by them, and how he sorted 644 00:41:03,380 --> 00:41:05,610 Speaker 2: out what was going on with the supposed Musk family 645 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:06,350 Speaker 2: emerald mine. 646 00:41:06,370 --> 00:41:10,190 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so brutal. They hate each other. 647 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,190 Speaker 1: He said, I'm just a middle-class kid trying to build 648 00:41:13,250 --> 00:41:15,630 Speaker 1: a company, and when people do things that suck, I've 649 00:41:15,670 --> 00:41:19,029 Speaker 1: got to tell them it sucks. And if I'm too collegial, 650 00:41:19,310 --> 00:41:22,610 Speaker 1: we'll never get things done. Well, I thought that was 651 00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:24,580 Speaker 1: going to be the end of all my access, that 652 00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:27,660 Speaker 1: I had violated what he may have thought was just 653 00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:31,700 Speaker 1: a private comment. But there were moments as the book 654 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,460 Speaker 1: was finishing where I'd get up in the morning and 655 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,989 Speaker 1: just turn on my phone. Is it still there? Was 656 00:41:38,010 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: it like a rocket ship? Did it blow up? 657 00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:44,450 Speaker 2: On Musk with Walter Isaacson is a production of Kaleidoscope 658 00:41:44,690 --> 00:41:47,489 Speaker 2: and iHeart. This show is based on the writing and 659 00:41:47,550 --> 00:41:51,230 Speaker 2: reporting of Walter Isaacson. It's hosted by me, Evan Ratliff, 660 00:41:51,570 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 2: produced by Lizzie Jacobs, assistant production from Serena Chow, mixing 661 00:41:55,900 --> 00:41:59,340 Speaker 2: and sound design by Rick Kwan, Thomas Walsh did the engineering. 662 00:41:59,820 --> 00:42:03,540 Speaker 2: From iHeart Podcast, the executive producers are Katrina Norvell and 663 00:42:03,660 --> 00:42:08,029 Speaker 2: Allie Perry. For Kaleidoscope, it was executive produced by Mangesh Hetikadur, 664 00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 2: with an assist from Oz Wolishan, Kostas Linos, and Kate Osborne. 665 00:42:13,420 --> 00:42:18,110 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Bob Pittman, Conal Byrne, Will Pearson, Nikki Etor, 666 00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:22,509 Speaker 2: Carrie Lieberman, Nathan Otoski, Allie Gavin, and the folks at 667 00:42:22,730 --> 00:42:25,350 Speaker 2: WWNO who let us use their beautiful studio in New Orleans. 668 00:42:26,070 --> 00:42:28,420 Speaker 2: If you like stories about writers and their process, check 669 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 2: out my other show, The Long Form Podcast. If you 670 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 2: want a story about a different South African programmer who 671 00:42:33,540 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 2: became one of the world's biggest criminals, you can check 672 00:42:35,820 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 2: out my book, The Mastermind. And for more shows from Kaleidoscope, 673 00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 2: be sure to visit kaleidoscope.nyc. Thanks so much for listening.