1 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: So he's at Twitter the night before Christmas Eve, December 2 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: twenty third, and they've got three server farms and if 3 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: they keep them going, it's going to be a few 4 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: million dollars each year. He says, let's get rid of 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: the Sacramento one. And people have been working at Twitter 6 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: a long time, engineers. He hasn't yet fired them, and 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: they say, no, you can't pull out those servers. It'll 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: take six months to move those out of Sacramento. And 9 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: there are rules and regulations. I know, demon modes about 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: to strike, but they were trying to argue with them 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: on it, and finally he just goes really angry and leaves. 12 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: The next day, Christmas Eve, he's on his plane flying 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: from San Francisco to Austin, bringing these two cousins, and 14 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: as they're flying over you know, Nvaada, one of them says, 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: why don't we just take those servers out ourselves, and 16 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: Bust goes into Gudea mode and turns the plane around, 17 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: goes right to Sacramento. They get to the server facility, 18 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: it's the afternoon of Christmas Eve, so nobody's really working 19 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: and it's a facility that has servers of other companies. 20 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: As well, so it's hard to get into. But being Musk, 21 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: he just finds somebody and makes them let them in. 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: And he says, we're going to take these servers out, 23 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: and they said we can't have You need electrician to 24 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: open the floorboard, and somebody to cut off the cables, 25 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: and somebody who can handle the dollies. Must turns to 26 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: his security guard, said you got a pocket knife, and 27 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: he takes off the floorboard himself. He just pries it 28 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: open from event. Then he gets a pair of pliers 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: I think they had gotten at home depot, and he 30 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: cuts the cable to the servers and waits and nothing happens. 31 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: It's fine. So they start in a friend see moving 32 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: these servers out on racks on Dolly's into this rental truck, 33 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: and he proves to everybody that yes, you can do it. 34 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: You said it was gonna take six months. It took 35 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: us six hours and we got a third of them move. 36 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: So he gets to prove people he's hardcore and he's intense. 37 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: And then he has Ron DeSantis announcer president, and there's 38 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: no backup servers, there's no casing, so the service Twitter 39 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: goes down for twenty minutes or more, and he says, well, 40 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: I guess it was a mistake taking the service out, 41 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: But like a lot of things, it's not clear this 42 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: was a total mistake or totally brilliant. And for me 43 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: it's a metaphor. He tends to take risks, and he 44 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: tends to leave rubble in his wake. 45 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: When Walter Isaacson set out to write a boutography of 46 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,119 Speaker 2: Elon Musk, he believed he was taking on a world 47 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: changing figure, certainly a visionary, maybe a genius. At Tesla 48 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: and SpaceX, Musk had attracted some of the most brilliant 49 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 2: engineering minds of our time to his side. His relentless 50 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: vision and exacting standards had driven those companies beyond what 51 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: many people thought possible. But Isaacson quickly came to see 52 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 2: what everyone else close to Musk already knew. Working with 53 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: him came with a cost. Musk's management style included utter 54 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: derision for work life balance, a belief that any camaraderie 55 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: at work only weakened employees' judgment, A lack of empathy 56 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: so pronounced that Musk might tear someone down in front 57 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: of everyone just because things had gotten too calm for 58 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: his comfort. And then instantly forget about it. He was 59 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: also busy seemingly squandering his legacy by the day on Twitter, 60 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: then of course buying Twitter, swapping out his lofty ambitions 61 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: of interplanetary colonization and combating climate change for you check 62 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: policies and content moderation, all while getting wrapped up in 63 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: a battle with what he called the quote woke mind virus. 64 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: I'm Evan Ratliffe and on this episode of On Musk 65 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: with Walter Isaacson, we write shotgun as Isaacson encounters the 66 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: darker parts of elon the earthword pull that threatens to 67 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: ground his highest aspirations, Episode two Demons. All right, ready, yeah, 68 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: there are moments in the book where he is just 69 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 2: reaming out someone. It's sometimes hard to tell the ones 70 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 2: where you're there and you're not, because you have such 71 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: comprehensive access to information that you can paint scenes that 72 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: you didn't actually witness through these various eyes. Did you 73 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: personally witness those things? 74 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: Like absolutely all the time. And I was stunned because 75 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: I thought of the Heisenberg principle that is something being observed, 76 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: it's going to change its velocity or its position. And 77 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: I thought by being in the room. He wasn't going 78 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,239 Speaker 1: to ream somebody out, and people were amazed, the people 79 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: around him that he was just as tough and as 80 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: bad and as much of an asshole or as much 81 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: of a genius when I was around that. It did 82 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: not calm him down, did not keep him from going 83 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: into demon mode. 84 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: Some of the targets on who Musk trained his fury 85 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: were people who'd gone the furthest for him, like one 86 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: executive named Brian Dawe, who'd been a hero of one 87 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: of Musk's so called surges. That's when Musk brings everybody 88 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: into the office for days or weeks of insane hours 89 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 2: to hit some target he's deemed crucial. 90 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: Back in twenty seventeen, when Musk went into total fury 91 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: about the battery factory in Nevada and lived there for 92 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: about three months, saying you've got to speed up this 93 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: battery line, he brings in this guy, Brian Dawe, who's 94 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: a can do person. Yes, Boss, we can get rid 95 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: of this machine. Yes, Bosh, we can do it. He 96 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: was so eager to help. And then I was there 97 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: sitting in mush little house when he calls up Brian 98 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: down says, I'm moving you to run the solar roof division. 99 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: It's like, I can do it. I can do it. 100 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: Chief Now, the solar roof division was a Musk project 101 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: that hadn't paid off so well. The basic idea was 102 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: that instead of retrofitting solar panels on houses, they would 103 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: make the roof tiles themselves into solar panels. Muskeet invested 104 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: in and then had Tesla buy a solar roof company 105 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: started by his cousins, not the cousins on the airplane, 106 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 2: but the other cousins. There were some accusations of nepotism 107 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: swirling around Musk. As you might imagine anyway, Musk is 108 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: trying to turn Tesla into an electric energy everything company, batteries, cars, 109 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 2: solar roofs, but the solar roofs are not getting installed 110 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 2: fast enough to scale the business. He's burned through three 111 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: executives there already. Incomes Brian Dow to Boca Chica where 112 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: ISAC's and is lurking nearby in his airstream trailer. 113 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: And one day Musk became driven by the fact that 114 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: they had to install solar roofs faster, just like the 115 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: assembly line of the car or the rocket. He says, 116 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: how can we speed up this step? This step, this step, 117 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: And finally he says, all right, we're going to do 118 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: the roofs of my house and these other little tracked 119 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: homes down in the south tip of Texas. And Dow 120 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: is up in I think Seattle or wherever he was based, 121 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: and it's his birthday. But Musk said, okay, I need 122 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: you back down in Boca Chica. Things aren't going well, 123 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: and he abandons his family, but he misses the connection 124 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: in Houston, has to get a car and drive six hours, 125 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: gets there late at night. 126 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: It was another surge the task to get the time 127 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: it took to install one roof down from three or 128 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: four days to just twenty four hours. So Dow is 129 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: leading his team of fellow designer, engineers and roofers to 130 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: meet the challenge. 131 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: And I remember one day it must have been one 132 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: hundred and five in the shade and there was no shade, 133 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: and these roofers are working and they have to get 134 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: it done within twenty four hours. Musk goes on over 135 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: to this little subdivision by about nine at night, and 136 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: there's big industrial lighting and cables, and there's twelve people 137 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: scrambling on the roof and he climbs this rickety ladder 138 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: to the top of the roof, and I of course 139 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: have to climb up with him, you know, standing on 140 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: the peak of this roof, clinging on for dear life 141 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: as these people are scurrying around. And as always, Elon 142 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: has his little son X who is at about two 143 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: years old, and he's just starting to toddle on the 144 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: ground amid all the cables and the lights and the 145 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: moving equipment, and I'm petrified for him. I'm petrified for myself. 146 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: And there's Elon standing at the peak of the roof saying, 147 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: why do we need four fasteners for each of the 148 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: roof tiles. Couldn't it be done with two? And they say, well, 149 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: if a hurricane comes, and he's like, okay, here would 150 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: be the strength of the winds, here's how much it 151 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: would take. And he's looking at the wiring and how 152 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: it works and trying to simplify it. And there's somebody 153 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: there who's supervising and must get furious because he believes 154 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: that every person working on a solar roof team should 155 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: be on the roof installing it. And if you're not 156 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: installing it, with your own hands, You're not really going 157 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: to understand what the problems are. And this guy is saying, well, 158 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: you know, I've done many roofs. I've watched it. Says, 159 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: how many of you actually installed with your own hands? Well? None, 160 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: I'm a designer. I knew that was going to be 161 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: one of those triggers. And for about an hour standing 162 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: on that roof, on the roof, and then finally we 163 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: come down on the ladder and we're standing next to 164 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: the house, and it continues for another thirty minutes. He's 165 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: reaming this guy out and finally says to Brian Dow 166 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: that he had to be fired. We came back a 167 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: couple days later and there's another house they're doing, and 168 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: then yet another house, and I remember once it was 169 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: so hot that people were fainting, they were throwing up, 170 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: and yet they worked all day to install it within 171 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: twenty four hours. And finally Musk is satisfied, but not 172 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: until he fires Brian Dowe, the guy in charge of 173 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: the division, as well as many of the people who 174 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: were helping do the roofs. And Brian talks to me 175 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: afterwards and says, I tried so hard. I was so eager. 176 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: He knew I would walk through walls with him, and 177 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: yet he fired me. And that's the type of toughness 178 00:10:53,679 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: that I don't find easy to stomach. It really really 179 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: turned me off when I was watching it, but I 180 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: tried to describe it. And also the fact that after 181 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: he kept pushing, he was able to get them to 182 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: do a solar roof per day. 183 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 2: Even after that, by the way, solar roofs still not scalable. 184 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 2: After the vomiting and the passing out and the firing, 185 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 2: it didn't really matter. The gold Musk had set of 186 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 2: twenty four hours to install. The roof didn't move the needle, 187 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 2: at least not by Silicon Valley standards. And Isaacson returns 188 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: again and again to these episodes trying to tease out 189 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: what they mean for the people involved in them. 190 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: And as you'll see in the book, not only did 191 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: I report those I think in the full fury of 192 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: it all, I'm not sugarcoating. I also went back to 193 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: the people who got totally reamed out. I'd go back 194 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: a day later and sometime six months later, say what 195 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: did you learn? Like, why couldn't you take it? And 196 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: there's a scene in the book of a Friday Night 197 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: at Star Base, where he just reams out this wonderful 198 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: southern guy, Andy krabs for not having enough people working. 199 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: Just choose him up, left, right, and center, and then, 200 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: like Doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde, a few weeks later, 201 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: he doesn't even remember it, and he promotes Andy. But 202 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: then it keeps happening, so Andy leaves. Recently, I was 203 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles and I'm signing books at the LA 204 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: Times book event. I see coming over for me. Say 205 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: that's Andy. I said, Andy, how you doing? He says, 206 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: I think I'm going to go back to SpaceX. I've 207 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: had the choice of being burned out or being bored. 208 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: I decided I'd rather be burned out on such a mission. 209 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: That's amazing because the one that stuck with me was 210 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: the guy who was thought to have caused one of 211 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 2: the failed launches or crashes, because he had like turned 212 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: a nut on the rocket and that had disrupted something. 213 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: And Musk actually publicly said it was him, and then 214 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: he quit. And then Musk was sort of good ridden, 215 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 2: so he wasn't that great of an engineer. And then 216 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 2: you sort of end that section by saying it turned 217 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: out it was not the turning of the night. It 218 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: wasn't him, I know. 219 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: I try to show both the fierce urgency of these 220 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: things that Musk feels, and that without this crazed urgency 221 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have gotten Tesla lines working as well. But 222 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: I also sometimes show where it was just awful the 223 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: way he did these things. And it happens on the 224 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: Tesla assembly line where somebody who's totally innocent, you know, 225 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: must then fires him. And that brings up the question 226 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: that so many people ask in the book, is is 227 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: it worthwhile? Do you make that trade off? And by 228 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: the end of the book, I kind of pretty clearly 229 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: say no, you don't really make that trade off that 230 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: getting the done excuse being a total asshole, But I 231 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: want the reader to see it in action. 232 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 2: And right after the break, Musk manages to create a 233 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 2: truly unique level of Thanksgiving drama as we get into 234 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: just what makes this guy tick. There's a personal aspect 235 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: which I have experienced myself as a reporter because I 236 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: tend to spend time around relatively unpleasant people and the 237 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: stuff that I write about. But the moment that you 238 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: have to experience him reading someone out him, yelling him 239 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: being an asshole. You know, it's not all the time, 240 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: but what kind of persona do you go into in 241 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: that moment. I mean, this is not something I assume 242 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: you would choose in your life to be around people 243 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: who are behaving in this way. 244 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's some people who love conflict that go 245 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: to world wrestling, you know, matches and stuff, and I'm 246 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: the opposite. I don't like seeing people fight and be 247 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: really mean, So at those moments I kind of shrink 248 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: back a bit. I try to be a bit invisible. 249 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: And then there were a lot of personal things that 250 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: had to figure out whether to put in the book, 251 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: especially when it came to his complex relationship with women 252 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: and the women who are the mother of his children. 253 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: Right before Thanksgiving of twenty twenty two, Claire Bouchet, the 254 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: performance artist on his Grind, is in the hospital with 255 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: the surrogate who's having their child, but in the same hospital, 256 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: Chavon Zillis, who runs Neuralink, is having twins that are 257 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: from Elon as a sperm donor, and they don't know 258 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: that the other is actually in the same hospital. Even 259 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: though they know each other, they don't know they're both 260 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: having kids of Elon's at the same time, this is 261 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: complicated emotionally, and Elon flies off Thanksgiving and says, I've 262 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: got a crisis happening with one of the engines they 263 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: were building, and I have to go focus on it. 264 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: Now. 265 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: It's like Thanksgiving Friday, you don't have to focus on it. 266 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: But it was like rocket engines were simpler to him 267 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: than human emotions. After the book is published, you can 268 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: go on x or Twitter and see Grimes posting and 269 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: Chavon posting and how they're all mad about this scene 270 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: in the book. But I felt that that was all 271 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: key to understanding the turmoil right around the time he's 272 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: trying to get Starship launched, right around the time he's 273 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: getting this new huge factory done in Austin, that he 274 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: loves drama, that he lives for turmoil, and that the 275 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: personal side is in turmoil as well. And I kind 276 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: of felt you had to know it all to understand 277 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: what was swirling around him and inside as he's doing 278 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: all this. 279 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: For Isaacson, Musk's approach to life seemed rooted in his upbringing, 280 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: what he describes in the beginning of the book as 281 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 2: a violent childhood with an alternately neglectful and cruel father. 282 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,959 Speaker 2: At what point in your reporting did you sort of 283 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 2: start to get those stories and understand that you were 284 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: going to use those stories as a way into understanding 285 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 2: sort of the psychology behind his work. 286 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: Elon Musk had never really talked about his childhood or 287 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: about the difficult relationship with his father, and there'd been 288 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: profiles of him and Rolling Stone in which he says, 289 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: is something I just can't say. And so I knew 290 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: there was a key there, and so I kept pushing 291 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: on it gently, month after month. Tell me about your dad, 292 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: tell me about your childhood, tell me about being beaten up. 293 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: And he go silent, stoney faced, and I'd stay silent. 294 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: I'd try to outlast him, occasionally give me a little something. 295 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: And then finally, on the tenth attempt at the conversation, 296 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: we were flying somewhere actually, and you said, tell me 297 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: about your father, and tears came to his eyes, and 298 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: then it started to tumble out. After that, I was 299 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: able to get more and more, and of course from 300 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: his brother Kimball, and from his father who I talked to, 301 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: and from his mother, who said, the danger for Elon 302 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: is that he becomes his father, And so that's how 303 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: that theme developed. But it wasn't something I could do 304 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: in one, two, three, or four interviews. It was really 305 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: a year into the reporting that slowly that door began 306 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: to open. 307 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think that makes a big difference to me, 308 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 2: at least in how you read the book in a way, 309 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 2: knowing that, because I think he has a difficult and 310 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: in some ways horrible father, you start out with these 311 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: scenes of violence, in him being bullied in different ways, 312 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: And it feels different to me to know that on 313 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 2: day one he didn't say to you, let me explain 314 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: myself to you. The reason I'm a jerk is because 315 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 2: I had this difficult up bringing, rather than that being 316 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 2: something that you pulled out of him. 317 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: I sometimes think, and this will sound a bit arrogant, 318 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: that I understand him better than he understands him. He'll 319 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: tell me I've got emotions buried under concrete, and I 320 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: didn't blast through them, but I slowly, slowly bore through 321 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: them and dug through them. And yes, it's a lot 322 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: about the demons of childhood. It's also about being wired differently, 323 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: which is complicated, meaning he says he has aspergers, which 324 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: isn't even used in medical realm. That much anymore. He 325 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: doesn't have very good input output signals for human emotions, 326 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: and that means he was socially awkward and beaten up 327 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: as a kid all the time. And since the book 328 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: came out, one of the things that surprises me is 329 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: how many people come up to me. I'll say one 330 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 1: of them Andrew Yang, because he did it on his podcast, 331 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: But certain TV hosts will say, I have a kid 332 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: with Asperger's, and what I have to do is I 333 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 1: keep my arm around him at all times when we're 334 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: on baseball games or out somewhere, and I say, look 335 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: the person in the eye when he hands you the popcorn, 336 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: and do this. And then I realize that Musk's father, 337 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: instead of putting his arm around him and helping him, 338 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: said you're stupid, You're a loser. You deserve to be 339 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: beaten up. And that doesn't excuse all of musk behavior. 340 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: And sometimes we confuse explaining something with excusing it. I 341 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: think it's important to explain it. 342 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: I want to note here that this is all pretty 343 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: tricky territory. For one thing, Asperger's, as Walter notes, is 344 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: an outdated diagnostic term for one form of autism spectrum disorder, 345 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: but It's a term that some people still use to 346 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: self identify, including Musk and ASD in general, and what 347 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 2: people call aspergers specifically, are both frequently misunderstood. Someone having 348 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: trouble with social cues obviously does not mean they lack empathy, 349 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: but challenges with social interactions can sometimes be confused for 350 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 2: narcissism and vice versa. Part of what I wanted to 351 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 2: know from Isaacson was how he tried to navigate this 352 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 2: territory when it came to Musk and his previous subject, 353 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: Steve Jobs. I was also struck by the contrast between 354 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: the Jobs book and this book, because Jobs, also you 355 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 2: describe has the lack of empathy. That's something that comes 356 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 2: up in the Job's book a few times. But his 357 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: ex girlfriend identifies it as narcissistic personality disorder, and she 358 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 2: says something like, I realized that telling him to be 359 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 2: more less self centered was like telling a black man 360 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: to see And. 361 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: By the way, this is true of Tallulailey, the second 362 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: wife of Elon Musk, and it's true of Grimes. Is like, no, 363 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: sometimes you just can't tell must be a different way 364 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: because that is the way he's wired. Or you look 365 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: at some of the great disruptors, I mean Bill Gates 366 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: early days of Microsoft. No empathy, you know, Jeff Bezos 367 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: could be that way. 368 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 2: And it is such a delicate issue because I feel 369 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 2: like you're careful to say he says that he has 370 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 2: Asperger's and it's not your job I believe to challenge that. 371 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 2: But in this case, it makes a difference whether he's 372 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 2: right in terms of the explanation versus the excuse. 373 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: He has ever been diagnosed, but his mother said, oh yeah, 374 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: he definitely has Asperger's, and his brother Kimball says it 375 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: and one of the things that had happened since the 376 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: job's booked to Now, as we start using terms like 377 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: neurodivergent as opposed to chark or as opposed to trying 378 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: to slap a broad label like Asperger's, Musk knows he 379 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: goes into multiple personalities and almost forgets what he has 380 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: done when he's dark depressed, or when he's, as Grimes 381 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: puts it, in demon mode, or when he gets back 382 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: into just being engineering mode personality. There are times when 383 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: he's friendly and joking, in times when he's inspirational, in 384 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: times when he's laser focused like an engineer and a 385 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: monotone with a specific problem. And he also has talked 386 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: to both me and the people around him about being bipolar. 387 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: It would be useful with all of these semi awarenesses 388 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: if he would go to a doctor, get analyzed, get treatment. 389 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: But as he said, these things are buried under layers 390 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: of concrete, and I don't want to blast through them. 391 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: So when you started connecting with the family and you 392 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 2: end up talking to his father, and from a journalistic 393 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: point of view, this seems like a very difficult character 394 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 2: to be entangled with in terms of like his connection 395 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 2: to the truth but also his beliefs. How do you 396 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 2: sort of manage that relationship. 397 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: Well, I'm still in contact with Erl Musk, who's not 398 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: really in contact with Elon. Elon doesn't take his emails, 399 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: doesn't speak to him. But Eryl Musk is a really 400 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: good engineer, has a real feel for the physical properties 401 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: of everything from you know, Micah to steel. He's also 402 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: somebody who has been successful at times, even once owned 403 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 1: a Rolls Royce in South Africa and built a wilderness 404 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: camp with his kids, and at times goes through this. 405 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: Doctor Jekyl too miss high transition and has lost a 406 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: whole lot of money. He's a fabuloust, which means he 407 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: fabricates things. I mean, he makes himself the hero of 408 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: some of his own adventures. On the other hand, he 409 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: understands that his own son has many of these traits. 410 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: And he'll say, when I ask him about taking this 411 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: side of the person who beat up Elon, he'll say, well, 412 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: Elon deserved that, or el was stupid. And he will 413 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: say I applied a very strict authoritarian attitude towards Elon, 414 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: and he does that with other people as well. So 415 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: in unraveling the mystery and the enigma inside of Musque, 416 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: you start by peeling back the layers that come from 417 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: his father, and you keep in mind his mother's admonition 418 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: to be which is that the danger for youe Elon, 419 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: is that he becomes his father. 420 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,479 Speaker 2: It's interesting that she says that because there's also this 421 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 2: other side, which is he has a very supportive mother, 422 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 2: so he it's not just the father. And without becoming 423 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 2: too much of an you know, armchair psychologist, I guess 424 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 2: because he's got these let's just say, unusual relationships with 425 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: women over time, and he's got this supportive mother, what's 426 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 2: the decision to sort of ground it more in the 427 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: in the Bad Father than in the in The Good Mother. 428 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: Well, the mother is a wonderful character throughout the book, 429 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: but both with her, with May the Mother and with Elon, 430 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: they're attracted to dramatic relationships. And May will say of 431 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: her son that he can't relax and smell the flowers. 432 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: He's always attracted to the storm, to the drama. And May, 433 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: who I really like she has, hasn't been in life 434 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: very good at relationships. He's attracted to people who cause problems, 435 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: and so too is it with Elon. You know, his 436 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: first wife a truly stormy relationship, but they thrived on 437 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: fighting all the time. And he said, there's just something 438 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: about the flame. I'm always attracted to the flame and 439 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: drama and relationships. And I ask him why, And I 440 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: ask to Lula's second wife why, and Tallulah says, there, 441 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: he was growing up with his father and his father 442 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: is mentally torturing him. And somehow you internalize storm and 443 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: drama with your childhood nurturing. That's probably overthinking it. Because Kimball, 444 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: his brother, you know, he's much more stable in his 445 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: relationships and his ability to show empathy, whereas Musk he 446 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: would see some calm, he'd see some calm on a 447 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: factory line or at a launch pad, and he'd be unhappy. 448 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: He'd say, I've got to stir things. 449 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 2: Up up next Twitter. And whether Musk did ever turn 450 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 2: his demon mode on Isaacson. 451 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: In April of twenty twenty two, when he's kicking around 452 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: the idea of buying Twitter, he's starting to buy the 453 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: stock and he's going a bit dark on management, thinking 454 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: maybe I'll make a hostile offer. It was a day 455 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: he opened the Giga Texas factory, amazing, big event. And 456 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: he goes out to dinner that weekend at a club 457 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: called the Pershing, very quiet and private in an upstairs room, 458 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: and it's him, his artistic son Saxon, his young three 459 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: year old ex Grimes comes in a little bit late 460 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: May Musk. She's at the dinner and it's myself and 461 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: a couple of other people. I'm asking, why are you 462 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: thinking of buying Twitter? And I'm my own mind, I'm 463 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: thinking that's a bad idea, but I'm just asking, and 464 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: then everybody else is chiming in, like why do you 465 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: really want it? And what you do with it? And 466 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: at some point he says to Griffin in one of 467 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: his teenagers. Do you use Twitter? He said, no, Dad, 468 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: none of my friends use Twitter, and may Musk, you know, 469 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: his mother says, well, I use Twitter. I'm thinking, okay, 470 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: this may be an indication of the demographic that they're 471 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: heading towards. And everybody is trying to nudge him away 472 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: from going down this path, really hurting his reputation, but 473 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: sucking up his time of trying to fix Twitter, and 474 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: all this keeps coming out of the dinner. By the 475 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: end of the dinner, I realize, okay, he's gonna go there. 476 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 2: So now Isaacson has a subject on his hands who 477 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 2: isn't just an innovator, a Silicon Valley darling with some 478 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 2: libertary inflect politics. Now he's got someone gearing up to 479 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: fight a war over free speech and right wing censorship 480 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: on Twitter, where he's about to try and manifest his 481 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 2: original X dot com Everything platform vision. 482 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: When I first started working on the Elon Musk's book, 483 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: he was very well known, but not quite as controversial. 484 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: He wasn't quite as toxic or as canonized. Then the 485 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: Twitter deal happened, and that changes things. It really increases 486 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: by at least two orders of magnitude, how controversial he is, 487 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: and also how famous he is. So suddenly the narrative 488 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: becomes much more of a roller coaster. So it's good 489 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: for the book, but there were parts of it that 490 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: I kind of wish, Hey, he was a calmer personality, 491 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: But he says, I got to keep in mind that 492 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: the mission is getting to Mars. It's not absolutely caring 493 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: about the psychological pleasures and safeties of everybody. I can 494 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: remember the time he walked into Twitter headquarters, right before 495 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: he has officially acquired it, and they're telling him what 496 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: a nurturing place it is to work, and they're saying, 497 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: you know, we've got quiet rooms, and we have mental 498 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: health days off, and we have yoga studios so people 499 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: can stay in balance. And then they say, and we 500 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,959 Speaker 1: really value psychological safety. And must sort of had that 501 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: raspy laugh, and he says, psychological safety, that's our enemy. 502 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: That's an impediment. We have to have a fierce sense 503 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: of urgency. We aren't aiming for psychological safety. 504 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 2: The other reason Musk gives for buying Twitter, one that 505 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 2: he seems to get a lot of play for in 506 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: some corners of the world, is that he's fighting against 507 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,239 Speaker 2: quote unquote wokeness. Musk has his own term for it. 508 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 2: When he talks about anti woke mind virus, he uses 509 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 2: that phrase, and that really touches on things that have 510 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 2: become you know, third rails in society in terms of 511 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: how they're discussed. I'm curious how you kind of engaged 512 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: with that idea with him. I mean, he's someone who 513 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 2: grew up in aparteight South Africa, so obviously, like his 514 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 2: views on race and other societal issues are going to 515 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 2: be colored by that. Like what does he mean when 516 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 2: he says something like that. 517 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: Well, the way I engage with it, and you see 518 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: it in the book is I question it. I say, 519 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: why are you following this particular conspiracy? And I'll even 520 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: talk about Okham's razor, which is the simplest explanation may 521 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: be the best one. Instead of thinking there's a vast 522 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: conspiracy of drug makers and COVID vaccines, or people trying 523 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: to lock down so they control government, or any of 524 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: these things that he goes to, I'm not that way. 525 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: I'm not conspiratorial, and I find that anti political correctness 526 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: and wokeness. It's a little hard for me to explain 527 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: because my head's not there, you know. I think sometimes 528 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: what we call being woke is being polite and sensitive 529 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: to other people's feelings. And I'll ask him about that. 530 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: I say, hey, understand, you've got a daughter who transitioned. 531 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: Why do people care about pronouns? And he'll say things 532 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: when he's in a more rational mood of why don't 533 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: mind people using pronouns? But it gouges my eyes out 534 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: when I see it too much. I'm going, why, what's 535 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: the problem. But it's when he's in his dark mood. 536 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: This eats away at him. And I describe his political 537 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: evolution from being an Obama supporter to being supporting Bobby 538 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: Kennedy than Ron DeSantis, people who are worried about wokeness 539 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: or worried about conspiracy theories. And I never try to 540 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: excuse it in the book, I don't excuse the rabbit 541 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 1: hole going down these rabbit holes of conspiracy. I do 542 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: try to explain it from his childhood, from his father, whatever. 543 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: And then I'll tell a story about a particularly horrible 544 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: tweet he did, like prosecute fauci are my pronouns? I mean, 545 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: just in a few words, is able to attack transgender 546 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: pronouns and Anthony Fauci, and I talk about his father 547 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: having said all these sort of things, being in a 548 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 1: hot box room in Twitter, and he's going dark and giddy, 549 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: and one of the people in the room starts joking 550 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: about Fuci and pronouns. And until you read the book, 551 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: I think critics can have a difficulty saying is he 552 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: explaining it or is he excusing it? But if you 553 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,720 Speaker 1: read that anecdote or that story, you're not gonna say 554 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: Walter excused it. You're going to see the rawness that's there. 555 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes in Elon Musk. 556 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 2: Must begins purging Twitter employees based on their relative quote hardcorenice. 557 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 2: When Twitter's finally down to a quarter of its previous size, 558 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: he's created the ultimate test for his delete, Delete, delete 559 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 2: management algorithm. 560 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: And it's a hardcore, small cadre and that cadre of 561 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: people and you now see it at Twitter. He whittled 562 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: down eighty percent of the staff. But it's a very 563 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: hardcore cadre that will march through walls for him. And 564 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: I think he tests people. He drives them there, but 565 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: also drives them to do things they didn't think they 566 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: could do. 567 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,879 Speaker 2: Did he ever turn his anger on you? 568 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: Did? 569 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 2: You experience demon mode directed at you as you describe it. 570 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: Everybody told me he was going to turn demon mode 571 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: on me. The people worked for him, plus crimes and 572 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: his former wives. They'd all say, is going to happen 573 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: to you. And if there's one small mystery, I can't 574 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: quite figure out why it never did happen to me. 575 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: But I didn't fill the silences when he went dark 576 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: and he went silent. I would just sit there. When 577 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: he would say something provocative, I just ask a question. 578 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: And I don't think I did anything that would have 579 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: triggered that demon mode, but I must say, as I 580 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,439 Speaker 1: watched it get triggered by people around me, I always said, 581 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: at some point, this is going to happen to me, 582 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: where he tells me I'm stupid or whatever, like he 583 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: did to some other people who worked with him. I 584 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,879 Speaker 1: didn't really want it to happen, but in the back 585 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: of my mind I knew if it did, it would 586 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: be a pretty good passage in the book. And I waited. 587 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: I waited, and I was pretty clear having watched him 588 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: after the first few months, I knew what brought on 589 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,280 Speaker 1: the storm. I knew the type of things that would 590 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: just set him off, and sometimes I'd see it happen. 591 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: I'd see it happened on an assembly line where some 592 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 1: poor young worker. There's a scene in the book where 593 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 1: Musk is saying, did you design this process here? And 594 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,919 Speaker 1: the young guy can't figure out what he's talking about, said, 595 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: what do you mean design it? And you could tell 596 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: Musk was about to go ballistic, and he does and 597 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: he fires the guy for no real reason. And I 598 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: watched over and over again. Must get triggered by people 599 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: giving opinions not backed up by data, or not understanding 600 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: what he was saying, or trying to make excuses. 601 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 2: Isaacson did find a few people who always seem to 602 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 2: dodge Musk's flamethrower, Mark gi and Kosa, the California surfer 603 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: type who was a key SpaceX engineer, and Gwinn Shotwell, 604 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 2: the president of SpaceX for the last twenty years. 605 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: I also watched people like Mark o'gwynn and I learned 606 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: how they did it, which wasn't being a yes person. 607 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: It was just slowly and methodically making factual arguments, and 608 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 1: when Musk made a decision, say fine, I get it, 609 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: but then presenting him over and over again with more 610 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: facts and saying, all right, we're going to try it 611 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: that way. But here's what we learned when we tested 612 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: it this morning. Because they're people who've been there almost 613 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: twenty years at SpaceX or at Tesla, who have never 614 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 1: really been the object of his flamethrowing personality. But as 615 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: a few people in the book said, Yoel roth It 616 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: was in charge of moderation at Twitterit. Yoel told me 617 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: over and over again those first few weeks how he 618 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: had learned to deal with Mosk, how it worked out fine, 619 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: and he said, I know these type of people. He 620 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: basically saying, I know bosses that can turn into assholes 621 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: all of a sudden. I've dealt with this before. And 622 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: then finally Yoel doesn't get fired, he doesn't get reamed out. 623 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: He finally says it's just too much. I'm leaving. It's 624 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: time for me to go. 625 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 2: It kind of highlights this aspect. I think if you 626 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 2: only hear about the incidents where Musk mistreats people. He's 627 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: an asshole, he doesn't have any empathy, you kind of 628 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 2: wonder why would anyone work for him? 629 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,240 Speaker 1: Over and over again, he would do things like force 630 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: a surge to stack a rocket on a launch pad, 631 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: even though there was no rush to do it or 632 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: force a surge at one of the manufacturing plants, and 633 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: people would go through hell for about a week to 634 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: do it, and it was exhausting, and a few would 635 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,879 Speaker 1: fall by the wayside, and a couple would quit and 636 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: then decided, I'd rather be burned out than bored. And 637 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: so he's able to get those twenty percent of the 638 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: people in any workforce who are totally inspired by somebody 639 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,879 Speaker 1: always in battle, and he gets a very lean team 640 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: that's willing to put up with him being cold and 641 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,919 Speaker 1: angry for those amazing moments where they feel like they're 642 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: changing the world. 643 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 2: In the next episode of Von Musk, we turn our 644 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 2: lens on Isaacson and his process, teasing out exactly how 645 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 2: he wrote this behemoth biography, how he resists hot takes 646 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 2: even as he's surrounded by them, and how he sorted 647 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 2: out what was going on with the supposed Musk family. 648 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 2: Emerald mind, I mean. 649 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: It's just so brutal. They hate each other, he said. 650 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,760 Speaker 1: I'm just a middle class kid trying to build a company, 651 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: and when people do things at sock, I've got to 652 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: tell them it socks. And if I'm too collegial, We'll 653 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: never get things done. Well, I thought that was going 654 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: to be the end of all my access, and I 655 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: had violated what he may have thought was just a 656 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: private comment. But there were moments as the book was finishing, 657 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,319 Speaker 1: I'd get up in the morning and just turn on 658 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: my phone. Is it still there? It was? It like 659 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: the rocketship? Did it blow up? On? 660 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 2: Musk with Walter Isaacson is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeart. 661 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 2: This show is based on the writing and reporting of 662 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 2: Walter Isaacson. It's hosted by me Evan Ratliffe, produced by 663 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 2: Lizzie Jacobs's assistant Production from Serena Chow, mixing and sound 664 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 2: design by Rick Kwan. Thomas Walsh did the engineering from 665 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. The executive producers are Katrina Norvel and Ali Perry. 666 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 2: For Kaleidoscope, it was executive produced by Manges Hatikador, with 667 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 2: an assist from Oz Walishan Kostaslinos and Kate Osbourne. Special 668 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 2: thanks to Bob Pittman, Connell Byrne, will Pearson, Nicki Etour, 669 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 2: Kerrie Lieberman, Nathan Otoski, Ali Gavin and the folks at 670 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 2: WWNO who let us use their beautiful studio in New Orleans. 671 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 2: If you like stories about writers in their process, check 672 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 2: out my other show, The Long Form Podcast. If you 673 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 2: want a story about a different South African programmer who 674 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 2: became one of the world's biggest criminals, you could check 675 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 2: out my book, The Mastermind. And for more shows from Kaleidoscope, 676 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,879 Speaker 2: be sure to visit Kaleidoscope dot NYC. Thanks so much 677 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 2: for listening.