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Speaker 1: M H. Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast featuring

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Speaker 1: conversations with industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment.

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Speaker 1: This is Shirley Halpern, Executive editor of Music. Music lawyers

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Speaker 1: run the gamut when it comes to personality. Some are

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Speaker 1: rarely seen or quoted, preferring to negotiate under the radar.

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Speaker 1: Others or seasoned schmoozers who table hoop with abandon at

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Speaker 1: industry events. Dina la polt, to our guest on this

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Speaker 1: music edition of the Strictly Business podcast, approaches issues affecting

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Speaker 1: her clients with the ferocity of a ring fighter. Twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago, she founded her own firm Lapote Law and

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Speaker 1: went on to represent music stars like Aerosmith, Steven Tyler,

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Speaker 1: Billy Eddie, Money Rappers, twenty one Savage and Cardi B,

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Speaker 1: and the girl group Fifth Harmony. As her practice grew,

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Speaker 1: so did Dina's conviction from writing the music ecosystems wrongs.

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Speaker 1: She tackled producers and songwriters writes and access to digital

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Speaker 1: royalties by helping craft and pass the Music Modernization Act,

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Speaker 1: which was signed into law in twenty eighteen. She campaigned

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Speaker 1: for federal COVID relief legislation packages geared towards helping music

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Speaker 1: creators and independent contractors. She wrote letters urging investigations into

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Speaker 1: the deaths of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor. She's currently

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Speaker 1: battling courts allowing rapp lyrics to be introduced as evidence

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Speaker 1: in criminal trials, and also advocating to eliminate the use

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Speaker 1: of triggering terms like master recording, which is common in

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Speaker 1: recording contracts. Serving as an ally to people of colors

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Speaker 1: at the core of Dina's life, both professionally and at home,

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Speaker 1: where she's mom to adopted black twins, It's why Dina

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Speaker 1: was recently recognized by the Black Music Action Coalition b

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Speaker 1: MAC is an advocacy organization formed to address systemic rays

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Speaker 1: m within the music business and advocate on behalf of

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Speaker 1: black artists, songwriters, producers, managers, agents, executives, and other industry professionals.

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Speaker 1: They held a starry galla in Los Angeles on September

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Speaker 1: where Dina was honored alongside the Weekend Motown chief Ethiopia

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Speaker 1: Have to Marry Him, YouTube's Tom Bassa, and George Floyd

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Speaker 1: family attorney Ben Crump, among others. Dina teered up accepting

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Speaker 1: the Agent of Change Award, remembering her first major client,

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Speaker 1: Tupac Shakor's mother, Affeni, and the rocky roads she's traveled

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Speaker 1: as an openly gay, loudly sober music biz trailblazer. Some

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Speaker 1: of that long, strange trip she shares with us here

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Speaker 1: on Strictly Business. After the break, Welcome back to Strictly Business.

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Speaker 1: Here's our interview with Dina Lapoleon. Dina Lapope, welcome to

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Speaker 1: Strictly Business surely, Albret, thank you for having me. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to start with a big question, I think because

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Speaker 1: it really sort of illustrates what Lapope Law, your firm

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Speaker 1: is all about. You could have just joined a big

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Speaker 1: name firm. There's a ton of them that do music

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Speaker 1: clients and entertainment clients. But you decided to start your

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Speaker 1: own shop. Can you tell me about the thinking that

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Speaker 1: went into that. I love why everybody asked me this,

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Speaker 1: Why did you start your own firm? Here's why, because

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Speaker 1: nobody wanted me. Let's be honest, it was I'm a woman,

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Speaker 1: because back then that was not a big thing in

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Speaker 1: the music business. I'm gay, I went to the wrong

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Speaker 1: law school. All these things that back then we're not desirable.

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Speaker 1: So I started my own firm only because I didn't

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Speaker 1: have any other options. Straight white men they ran the

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Speaker 1: music business. When I was in law school, I got

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Speaker 1: the Don Passman book Who's Amazing, And I read that

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Speaker 1: book and I loved that book, and I started trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out if there were any women that did

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Speaker 1: what Don Passman did. I found two women that I

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Speaker 1: learned about, not online because we didn't have online back

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Speaker 1: then really um but Jill Berliner and Rosemary Carroll were

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Speaker 1: the only two women that I could find anything about

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Speaker 1: that did what I did. So I held onto that

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Speaker 1: vision throughout all of law school. You started out as

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Speaker 1: a musician. I don't want to say it was a

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Speaker 1: failed musician, but the career didn't exactly pan out what

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Speaker 1: drew you to law. I was in a band and

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Speaker 1: I was playing at this conference in San Francisco called

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Speaker 1: SFO Nadine's Wild Weekend sponsored by b m I. It

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Speaker 1: was like south By Southwest, and my band got a

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Speaker 1: showcase and there were panels during the day, and I

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Speaker 1: went to a panel called negotiating Record Deals with three

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Speaker 1: music lawyers. And when I got there, I thought I

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Speaker 1: was a the wrong panel because one guy had long hair,

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Speaker 1: another guy had a tattoo on his neck, and another

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Speaker 1: guy had two ear rings. And it was the lawyer's

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Speaker 1: panel and they were lawyers, and I was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, that's what I want to do. And I

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Speaker 1: approached the guy with two ear rings because his wife

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Speaker 1: was in the San Francisco Philharmonic and I was still

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Speaker 1: a pompous classical musician and uh, he said, well, you

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Speaker 1: got to go to college first, and so well I did,

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Speaker 1: and I have a degree in music. Does that count?

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Speaker 1: He goes, I don't know, call the colleges, and I

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Speaker 1: ended up calling these law schools, and that's kind of

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Speaker 1: how it happened for me. But one person saw my value,

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Speaker 1: and that was Tupac's mother, of Phany Shakoor. Yeah. She

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Speaker 1: was basically like one of your first clients, right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was an intern at this law firm in Century City.

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Speaker 1: Tupacket just died like a year and a half or earlier,

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Speaker 1: and everybody was suing the estate because he didn't have

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Speaker 1: any agreements. I ended up meeting her one day at

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Speaker 1: a fee petition hearing in downtown l A in the courtroom,

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Speaker 1: and she just started all these like oh baby, you

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Speaker 1: gotta let go and let God one day at a time,

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Speaker 1: and first things first, and like all these slogans that

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Speaker 1: we have in recovery. And I said to her, are

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Speaker 1: you in recovery? She goes, oh, yes, thirteen years off

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Speaker 1: crack cocaine, honey, and I was four months sober. And

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Speaker 1: I go, I'm in sober too, and I'm four and

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Speaker 1: she goes, I knew I loved you, and anyways hugging

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Speaker 1: on me. And we were bonded from that minute on.

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Speaker 1: But it was a Phanie that kept telling me two

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Speaker 1: years into knowing her, you need to open your own

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Speaker 1: law firm. She was tell me that every day for

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Speaker 1: like literally over a year. So did she see like

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Speaker 1: an ambition in you that you didn't see in yourself?

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Speaker 1: I think she did. I think she because she had

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Speaker 1: come from great adversity. I mean, remember this was one

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Speaker 1: of the panther one famous trial one you know, where

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Speaker 1: she rep resented herself on a hundred and seventy nine

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Speaker 1: felony counts, gets herself acquitted as she's eight months pregnant

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Speaker 1: with Tupac, and meanwhile some of her co conspirators are

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Speaker 1: going to prison, and they had lawyers. She was brilliant

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Speaker 1: and she helped me. So, now that you've been in

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Speaker 1: this practice for twenty years, how many women are at

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Speaker 1: the firm? We're se women. Has the legal industry gotten

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Speaker 1: better in terms of diversity and gender parody or not yet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's so funny because I joke with all of my

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Speaker 1: friends that are women and all of my friends that

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Speaker 1: are of people of color. Um, we said, we're like

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Speaker 1: the hot thing now. I mean, look at things in

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Speaker 1: the music business on the company side, are not going

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Speaker 1: to change until one of the main music companies, whether

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Speaker 1: it's one of the labels or one of the digital

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Speaker 1: service providers. Until those companies are headed by a woman

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Speaker 1: or a person of color, we're not going to see

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Speaker 1: real change. We're seeing some change, like calling out the

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Speaker 1: record companies for the using the term master recording. Now

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Speaker 1: everybody's changing it to sound recording because I've talked to

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Speaker 1: all of them and they're all taking the initiative. So

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Speaker 1: this explains a little bit of why you were You're

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Speaker 1: involved in b MAC, the Black Music Action Coalition, because

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Speaker 1: you're obviously very passionate about opportunities being there for you know,

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Speaker 1: someone who isn't white and male, but you also have

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Speaker 1: two adopted sons that are black. Talking to one of

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Speaker 1: the board members of Shawna Air, She's like, Dina, this

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Speaker 1: is how it's going to change for black people when

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Speaker 1: white people are doing the things that you're doing, because

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Speaker 1: that's how it's going to change for us. And when

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Speaker 1: she told me that, I go, Yeah, if every white

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Speaker 1: person I know was doing what I was doing and calling,

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Speaker 1: then it would change. Like I'm constantly upset about the

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Speaker 1: seventeen hundred Confederate monuments that are still up all over

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Speaker 1: this country. You know, all of the systemic racism that

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Speaker 1: happens just using the term master recording, you know, all

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Speaker 1: of the things were not taught in school about the

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Speaker 1: Tulsa race massacrerent like real history of this country, twelve

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Speaker 1: generations of slavery, a hundred years of Jim Crow, Like,

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Speaker 1: this is the history of this country. And I'm really committed,

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Speaker 1: and I've been throughout my entire life. I mean, my

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Speaker 1: earliest memory that I knew that something was wrong was

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Speaker 1: when I was six, my mother ripping the whites only

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Speaker 1: sign off the water Fountain and Myrtle Beach and then

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Speaker 1: taking us to the Black Beach. I was six and

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Speaker 1: my mother was telling me that this is wrong and

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Speaker 1: if we don't stand up for people, it's never gonna

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Speaker 1: be right, and that we have to stand up. So

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Speaker 1: I had when I first found out about it, I

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Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I don't know if I should be

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Speaker 1: doing this. And then when a Shauna said, no, we

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Speaker 1: need white people like you to do these things so

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Speaker 1: it can really change for us, you know. And then

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Speaker 1: raising my kids is a big thing. I mean I

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Speaker 1: they're proud black boys, and they know all about the

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Speaker 1: civil rights movement and they know all about the challenges

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Speaker 1: that we have, and we teach them that in California

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Speaker 1: you have to have an adoption agency to adopt kids.

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Speaker 1: And when you know you're having multiracial kids and you're

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Speaker 1: not multiracial, you have to take these classes. And everybody

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Speaker 1: took these classes. We were in a class with all

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Speaker 1: these people, all these white people, and everybody got a

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Speaker 1: cup and everybody got a tray of beads, and there

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Speaker 1: were white beats, yellow beads, brown beads, red beads, black beads,

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Speaker 1: and the woman would say, put the color of the

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Speaker 1: bead of the predominant race of everybody in your household,

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Speaker 1: and you put the bead in there. Put the predominant

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Speaker 1: bead of the color of everybody you work with. You

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Speaker 1: put the bead in there. Put the color of the

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Speaker 1: bead of everybody that's in your neighborhood. You put the

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Speaker 1: color of be So there's like twenty questions at the end.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's cup was white. The woman's like, how are you

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Speaker 1: going to raise multi racial kids? And you know, we're

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Speaker 1: fortunate that our cup is not white. We have a

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Speaker 1: multi colored cup, you know. But it is something that

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Speaker 1: you have to be proactive in doing. You literally, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: Aurora James, who's also being honored with the Agent Change

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Speaker 1: Agent Award at b MAC, she has this thing, the

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Speaker 1: fifteen percent role, and she and this is now global

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Speaker 1: all over the place, you know, like Old Navy is

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Speaker 1: doing it and target like fifteen percent of your workforce

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Speaker 1: has to be a color. But I like to bring

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Speaker 1: that down to a very localized at least fifteen percent

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Speaker 1: of the people in your life need to be people

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Speaker 1: of color. Look around people, Guess what. The only people

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Speaker 1: that are uncomfortable talking about race are white people. Black

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Speaker 1: people are not uncomfortable talking about race. Only white people are.

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Speaker 1: So if you can't look in the mirror and say, God,

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Speaker 1: everybody in my neighborhood is white, or everybody in my

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Speaker 1: kid's circle is white, or everybody in my workforce is white.

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Speaker 1: If you can't recognize that and make a commitment to

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Speaker 1: start changing. Not that that you are going to be

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Speaker 1: wrong and shamed for that, but it's the commitment to

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Speaker 1: make a difference. You have to change sex, drugs, and

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Speaker 1: rock and roll has always been the slogan, Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: got into music, probably because that spoke to you. But

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Speaker 1: what happens when you're now? So you have to take

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Speaker 1: that element out of it. Um, we've talked about this before.

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Speaker 1: When did the tide turn from party all the time?

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Speaker 1: I want a rock and roll all night right and

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Speaker 1: party every day to maybe we should think about having

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Speaker 1: a dry tour, or maybe we should think about putting

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Speaker 1: our bassist or a drummer. And we never experienced being

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Speaker 1: a professional musician as a sober person, but I have

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Speaker 1: clients that are sober, and it's amazing to me the

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Speaker 1: sober network of touring personnel, Like we literally have a

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Speaker 1: list of people that are in recovery. And we all

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Speaker 1: talk about this, all of us in the music business.

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Speaker 1: That are sober and in recovery. We call each other,

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Speaker 1: we talk about it. We go hey, we call, do

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Speaker 1: you have a sober tour manager? It's going out. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we got sober tour managers, sober lighting technicians, sober roadies,

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Speaker 1: sober this, sober that, sober videographers, sober stylists. Like there's

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Speaker 1: a network of people that are available to work on tours.

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Speaker 1: And because being touring as a as a drudge, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, you know, it was like, this is horrible.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine it. And you know, since I've been

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, I've been on clients tours where they have

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Speaker 1: you know, huge rock stars, okay, where they have huge,

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Speaker 1: amazing busses and five star hotel and still a grind.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, this is a grind, okay, And I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine doing this for fifty years, like my amazing beloved

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Speaker 1: Steven Tyler. But it is hard, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: especially for someone and is sober. So Variety does an

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Speaker 1: annual recovery issue, which I'm super proud of. We wrote

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Speaker 1: about the origins of dry tours and Aerosmith was one

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Speaker 1: of the first bands to to really you know, like

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Speaker 1: some kind of monster, the whole thing, you know, therapy,

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Speaker 1: dry tours, let's get through. It's almost like what comes

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Speaker 1: first the horse of the cart, Like does the touring

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Speaker 1: drive you to drink right? Or you haven't had proper

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Speaker 1: mental health or proper health insurance as a musician, that

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Speaker 1: no one's looking out for you. You're an addict. It's

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Speaker 1: like you are an addict from the minute you're a

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Speaker 1: little kid, like you have addiction issues and entertainment. It's

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Speaker 1: more proud valent because it's acceptable to drink and use.

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Speaker 1: Like you work at IBM, it's not acceptable to drink

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Speaker 1: and use. So our industry you have people smoking pot,

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Speaker 1: doing lines of cocaine intermittently and it's acceptable. It's not

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Speaker 1: like that in any other industry, like the car industry. Oh,

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Speaker 1: let's do a line of coke in the middle of

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So we're able to mask

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Speaker 1: it a lot. But addiction is addiction, and the way

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Speaker 1: it works in addiction is it's a progressive illness. So

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Speaker 1: the older you get, you know, the more untreated you are,

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Speaker 1: it gets worse and worse and worse and worse. We

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Speaker 1: need to take a quick break, but we'll be back

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Speaker 1: with more from Dina Lapole and we're back with Dina Lapole.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask about how you've advocated for songwriters

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Speaker 1: because it's been at times an uphill battle. Why did

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Speaker 1: these creators, these songwriters, the people responsible for the lyrics

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Speaker 1: of the biggest hits in the world, why do they

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Speaker 1: seem to always get the short end of the stick.

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Speaker 1: It's just the way the laws work, and it's really unfair.

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Speaker 1: And the laws, I mean, this is copyright law that

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Speaker 1: goes back hundreds of years. Talk about moving a battleship,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like trying to pass

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Speaker 1: laws like you know, by the time we passed the

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Speaker 1: Music Modernization Act, it was already outdated ten years. And

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Speaker 1: that's just the reality of how this is. Because it's

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Speaker 1: all Congress, so songwriters are all regulated by the government.

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Speaker 1: They don't get to negotiating a free market. And whether

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Speaker 1: it's the consent decrees that were enacted almost eighty years ago,

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Speaker 1: the government asked gettin b m I the country's two

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Speaker 1: biggest performing right societies that collect moneies for songs that

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Speaker 1: are performed on the radio and on some of the

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Speaker 1: interactive digital services or its mechanical royalties for music that

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Speaker 1: streamed over interact of services like Spotify and Amazon. These

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Speaker 1: are all regulated antiquated consent decrees and outdated portions of

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Speaker 1: the Copyright Act. I mean, when we did the Music

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Speaker 1: Modernization Act, there was no mechanism for songwriters to get

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Speaker 1: their money from services like Spotify, and what Spotify these

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Speaker 1: companies wanted is a compulsory license. So it was a catch.

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Speaker 1: Twenty two was like, no, we don't want to give

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Speaker 1: you a compulsory license because that's the regulation. But they're like, well,

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Speaker 1: we're not paying you. We're just gonna accumulate this money

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Speaker 1: and torture you until you agree. And finally, at the

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Speaker 1: breaking point, we came up with a list of like

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Speaker 1: fifteen things that we wanted because we knew the one

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Speaker 1: thing that they wanted was a compulsory license. Well, we

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Speaker 1: know it's bad for songwriters, it's just this regulation, okay,

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Speaker 1: but they need the money and there's millions and millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars out there, So what do we want. Okay,

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Speaker 1: here's what we want. We don't want the record company

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Speaker 1: collecting our mechanical royalty income anymore and paying songwriters and publishers.

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Speaker 1: Forget that. We want to have a sound exchange for songs,

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Speaker 1: and we don't want the record companies to run it.

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Speaker 1: We want songwriters to be on that and it needs

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Speaker 1: to be independent. Um, so let the services funded. Oh

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Speaker 1: and another thing, only the very rich can afford to audit.

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Speaker 1: Songwriters never get to audit because it's a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: So guess what right in there that we get to

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Speaker 1: audit and they got to pay for it. So all

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Speaker 1: these things came from sitting around and figuring out what

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Speaker 1: we wanted in exchange for this one thing that they wanted.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of how it came about. But here's one

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Speaker 1: thing that we did realize as we were in the

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Speaker 1: thick of it, and this was an issue. There was

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Speaker 1: no creators of color helping us advocate. And we talked

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Speaker 1: about this early on, and and and I said, and

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Speaker 1: I said to Chairman Nadler, because they don't see any

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Speaker 1: black people involved, Like everybody on the judiciary that's involved

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Speaker 1: in this reform are white people. Like you want black

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Speaker 1: people to be involved, We have to have black people

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Speaker 1: in charge. So now I lobbied for this for like

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Speaker 1: six months now. Congressman Hank Johnson is the chairman of

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Speaker 1: the Subcommittee on Intellectual Property Courts in the Internet, which

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Speaker 1: is going to be really important when we go into

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Speaker 1: d m c A review next Congress, when we're looking at,

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Speaker 1: you know, reform legislation for Digital Millennium Copyright Act. So

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Speaker 1: the compulsory license just gives them free reign to to

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Speaker 1: stream the music. Yeah, and they got to pay the

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Speaker 1: statutory mechanical royalty rate, which is another outdated, crappy thing

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Speaker 1: that songwriters have to deal with with the Copyright Royalty Board.

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Speaker 1: And we're going into another Copyright Royalty Board next year

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Speaker 1: and we're trying to line up all of our songwriter

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Speaker 1: witnesses and we're in the middle of doing that. So

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Speaker 1: this is remember when we got like the publishers and

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Speaker 1: the songwriters fought, but right before the m m A

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Speaker 1: was passed, we got the Copyright Royalty Board to give

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Speaker 1: us at increase in the mechanical one and then Spotify

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Speaker 1: appealed it and they just won the appeal. No, it's

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Speaker 1: this is like, it's this catch twenty two. It's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, how do It's like going people say to me,

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Speaker 1: how did you get the music model? How did you

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Speaker 1: help work with all these Republicans to get the music

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Speaker 1: modernization I passed. It's like people, we are working with Spotify, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's the same, it's the same concept. You know,

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Speaker 1: you have to work with people to make it happen.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, here's Spotify. The treats us the worst,

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Speaker 1: and we're still like working with them and embracing them,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it's still a very important part of

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Speaker 1: what we do. And we're working on the playlisting and

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Speaker 1: going to their offices and we're friends with everybody that

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Speaker 1: works there. It's the world's biggest record store, right, you

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Speaker 1: gotta deal with them, just like the Republicans. How to

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Speaker 1: deal with them? Now, if you could do it over,

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Speaker 1: if you could just like wipe out all the legislation

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Speaker 1: start from scratch, how would it be modeled in your

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Speaker 1: perfect view? Well, I would have songwriters deal in a

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Speaker 1: free market, which people say that can't happen because we

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Speaker 1: would never have any music. No, you would have music

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Speaker 1: that was paid for, and if the songs writers didn't

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Speaker 1: want you to streamed the music or play the music,

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Speaker 1: you couldn't play the music. I feel like there could

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Speaker 1: be some sort of blanket licensing, but it would have

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Speaker 1: to really be something that's crafted by the songwriters with

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Speaker 1: the songwriters. What have you learned about dealing with Washington

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Speaker 1: through this experience with them with the Music Modernization Act. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's very dysfunctional the way we elect our officials, all

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Speaker 1: these weird rules, filibuster the way it works. It's like

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Speaker 1: people with the most money, that have the most powerful lobbyists,

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Speaker 1: get heard, whereas people that are grassroots don't get heard.

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Speaker 1: I think the entertainment part, because we represent huge celebrities

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Speaker 1: in music that have millions and millions of followers, we

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Speaker 1: get heard, you know what I mean. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: having enough money. It's like, Okay, we're not paying our lobbyists,

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Speaker 1: you know, three thousand dollars an hour, but we have

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Speaker 1: these artists that have forty million Twitter followers in your district.

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Speaker 1: You get heard, you know what I mean. But it's

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Speaker 1: a slog um. But also learning to work with people.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was really hard working with these Republicans,

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Speaker 1: especially during the Trump era. And I got to say this,

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Speaker 1: I was disinvited to the White House. I'm a proud

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Speaker 1: owner of that. Okay, So wait, so you're talking about

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Speaker 1: when the m A m m A was signed into law,

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Speaker 1: we all flew to Washington. There was a big party

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Speaker 1: that the Senate was having. We're all there with the

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Speaker 1: Senate and the next day was the signing of the

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Speaker 1: White House. And as we're at the party, all of

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Speaker 1: us are like, people are like checking their email. I

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Speaker 1: was just disinvited to the White House. I was like

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Speaker 1: one of the first ones disinvited. So at first I

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Speaker 1: took it personally and I called my wife. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I was disinvited. She goes, thank god. However, were gonna

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Speaker 1: explain that to the kids that you were going to

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Speaker 1: the White House with Donald Trump? I go, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I should be relieved. And I go, god, I'm the

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Speaker 1: only one though, But no, Paul Williams was disinvited. When

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Speaker 1: Paul Williams got disinvited, I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: this is awesome. Paul Williams, who wrote The Rainbow Connection. Hilarious. Tina,

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Speaker 1: You've written several really fantastic essays for Variety, but I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk about one that we've already published. In

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Speaker 1: one that's um that's coming up that's going to be

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Speaker 1: published in conjunction with this podcast, you wrote about rap

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Speaker 1: lyrics are now admissible in some crimdtle trials. So if

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Speaker 1: you wrapped or bragged in a lyric about you know,

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Speaker 1: doing something illegal, it could actually be used against you.

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Speaker 1: You represent Savage, you represent Cardi B. Yeah, listen, this

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Speaker 1: is a racist initiative. Let's be clear about this. This

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Speaker 1: is racist. And when you told me about the Appeals

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Speaker 1: Court in Maryland, which is the highest court in the

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Speaker 1: land in the state of Maryland, which now makes it

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Speaker 1: legal that you can use rap lyrics or lyrics against

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Speaker 1: someone as evidence of their crimes or guilt or this

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Speaker 1: or that or being in a gang. You don't see

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Speaker 1: this in country music. Okay, we're the murder ballot is

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Speaker 1: a big thing, you know, talking about murdering your cheating

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Speaker 1: wife or rape in this one or beating this one

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Speaker 1: or whacking this one, like this is a big thing.

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Speaker 1: And this is not a thing. It's only used against

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Speaker 1: black people, dominantly black men. And I'm telling you it's

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Speaker 1: it's terrible. And I recently wrote an article called um

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Speaker 1: a memo actually rap music in the American justice system,

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Speaker 1: which I'm using is some kind of a white paper

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Speaker 1: to help get legislation passed for this. So one of

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Speaker 1: my interns it worked for me over the summer. She's

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Speaker 1: at the University of Irvine and she worked on this

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Speaker 1: clinic for the past five years. Is professor Professor Jack

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Speaker 1: Lerner has written this guide called rap on Trial, and

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Speaker 1: it's a legal treatise for defense attorneys. Because this is

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Speaker 1: how bad it is, Okay, I mean it is it is.

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Speaker 1: It's just happening in all these very conservative districts where

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing this happen, and we have to get

426
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: we got to get ahead of this issue. Did this

427
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: factor into um your representation of twenty one Savage at all?

428
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: He was detained by ice? Well, he was picked up

429
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: by ice, because I mean, listen, it was no coincidence.

430
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: He performs on Jimmy Kimmel an alternate verse of one

431
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: of his songs. It talks about immigration at the border,

432
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: criticizing the Trump immigration policy, and like you know, then

433
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 1: we get tipped off the Ice is going to pick

434
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: them up. So it's terrible. Like, but the way that

435
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: this is working in America is that all of the

436
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: people that are having problems with this, okay, are all

437
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: black people. So here's another thing that's just not right.

438
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the other essay that we are publishing.

439
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: So we thought, in honor of the anniversary of Lapote Law,

440
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: that you should write an essay about twenty things you've

441
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: learned in twenty years. And um it's on Variety dot com.

442
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: If anyone wants to look at it, just click on

443
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,239
Speaker 1: the music tab and you'll find it right there. It's

444
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: part of our Power of Women coverage. I wanted to

445
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: just talk about a few of these. First of all,

446
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: this I was surprised to see coming from a lawyer.

447
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: Never lie or over exact, adderate and dealmaking. Explain that

448
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: a lot of times when you're negotiating deals, you'll get

449
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: an offer from a record company, and to get a

450
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: better offer, you tell other record companies this is the offer,

451
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: and you lie. You go, oh, this is the advance.

452
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: This is what I got from Interscope. Did you lie

453
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: about all this? First of all, it violates every spiritual

454
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: principle that I follow. Okay, But second of all, people

455
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: will always find out because executives leave companies, they go

456
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: to other companies, they go to other areas of the business,

457
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: and then they always find out. It always comes back

458
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: and bite you in the ass. Avoid the deliberate manufacture

459
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: of misery. I'm gonna I'm gonna just read the little

460
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: subhead here. Life is complicated without sprinkling any self induced

461
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: negativity or alternative facts into the situation. Explain that it's

462
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: a big thing. So if you're dealing with something that's stressful,

463
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: you can make it by future tripping or trespassing into

464
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: the future. It's like I say, you know, or you

465
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: can make it worse for yourself. So for example, if

466
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: you exaggerate or lie in deal making and then someone

467
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: on the other side finds out about that, and that

468
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: company says I'm never going to do business with you again,

469
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: and people know about that, well, you just did this

470
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: to yourself. Avoid the deliberate manufacturer misery. It comes into

471
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: a lot of things. Number nine on your list. There

472
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: are two types of business, my business and none of

473
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: my business. I choose wisely. I mean, listen, people try

474
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: to pull me into things all the time because I'm

475
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: great in crisis. I think quick on my feet, and

476
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: I have a high degree of emotional intelligence, so I

477
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: can really assess the situation quickly. But also getting involved

478
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: in other areas that are not my practice, areas caused liability.

479
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: So you have to be very clear about like, no,

480
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: I can't get involved in that because of this, that

481
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: the other. And you know there's certain things, whether it's

482
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: law or just personal related, you start getting involved in

483
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: things it's not your business, and the next thing you know,

484
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: you could have avoided the deliberate manufacture of misery. Tough

485
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: times don't last, tough people do. This has been a

486
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: mantra of mine for twenty years. So everything in my life.

487
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: If I look at my life as a trajectory, and

488
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: I'm fifty five years old, I have gotten where I

489
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: am from hardship every I've failed so many times and

490
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: have been told no so many times, and it has

491
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: been told it can't be done so many times, and

492
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: one thing after another, I kept getting up. I kept

493
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: getting up, and it's like, you know what. I look

494
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: back and it's like, how did I get through those times? Yeah?

495
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: They were tough times. You know, tough times don't last.

496
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: Tough people do. Donald Trump, that was some tough times. Okay,

497
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: we got through that. Tough people got through that. We

498
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: didn't mention that You've worked at U c l A.

499
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: You taught a class for so long, So let's go

500
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: and let's talk about this one. If you want to

501
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: really understand the subject then teach it or become a mentor. Yes, yeah, listen.

502
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: In the beginning was hard because a lot of the

503
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: concepts producer royalties, the way they're calculated retroactive to record

504
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: one all these things was very complicated, and I'm dyslexic,

505
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: so I was it was very hard for me to

506
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: get these concepts, especially because I didn't come in a

507
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: firm where someone is teaching me. When I started teaching

508
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: at u c l A, and it was an extension class,

509
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: so people in the business wanted to come to my

510
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: class to get a competitive edge and understand things. That's

511
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: when I really started learning the stuff like all these

512
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: complicated concepts on for neighboring rights and how mechanical royalties

513
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: are computed outside in North America and all these things

514
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: like that all came from me teaching at u c

515
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: l A for almost twenty years. I mean, that's the

516
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: opposite of that saying those who can't do teach you

517
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: literally can do, and you teach to do better. Yeah,

518
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: I teach you to do better. And listen, this is funny.

519
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: People go, oh, it's so wonderful. You're an n f

520
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: T expert. It's like no, no, no, no no. I

521
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: started teaching about n f T so I can understand

522
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: what this was. Let's talk about n f T is

523
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: just a little bit like when I first heard about

524
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: n f T S. My first reaction was like, this

525
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: seems like a copyright nightmare. Um, what are the legalities

526
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: of these these art pieces? Well, first you have to

527
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: determine these are collectible. So it's driven by art. It's collectible.

528
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: So if you're gonna have first of all, so there's

529
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: there the ownership of the art. Who's creating the image,

530
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: who owns the image? Okay, Now there's music on it? Okay,

531
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. Is there a recording that's implicated

532
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: subject to some exclusive deal. Okay, it's a record deal.

533
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's you know, let's say it's with

534
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: Atlantic Records. It's an artist for according their signed to Atlantic.

535
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: That's a piece you've got to clear who were the

536
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: songwriters of the underlying musical composition? Are their publishers? So

537
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: this is the whole analysis to go through. But first,

538
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: before you even get to that analysis, you have to

539
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: make a determination as to what the percentage of the

540
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: music is. The overall n f T. And that's very subjective.

541
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 1: If it's driven by the art, say, Lady Gaga is

542
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: doing it, she's not a client, so I can talk

543
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: about her. If it's driven by the art, it's Lady

544
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: Gaga and it's the art thing. Well, that's the art

545
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: and her trademark and her image. Okay, But then she

546
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: has some of her music. Okay, Well what is the

547
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: percentage of music to the n f T. If you say, well,

548
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: the percentage of music is ten percent of the entire

549
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: n f T because this thing will sell even without

550
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: her music because she's Lady Gaga, then that's an argument

551
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: you make to her record company and you make to

552
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: the publishing company. So once you determine what the overall

553
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: percentages of music of the n f T, then you

554
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: just with that in half. One side is them recording,

555
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: one side is the song, and then you clear the

556
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: rights like that. But what about the person buying the

557
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: n f T. Do they then have ownership of those things? No?

558
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: Because when you well, no, no, no, because that you

559
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: have to also be very clear with the platform too,

560
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: because this is an issue early on where some of

561
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: the fans would buy these n f T s and

562
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: then they say, well, I own the song. So you

563
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: have to be very clear with both what you're doing

564
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: and as far as you're doing an open you know,

565
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: an auction, or you're doing another kind of drop, you

566
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: have to make sure your fans know that they're buying

567
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: the physicality of the digital piece, not the actual ownership

568
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: of the underlying musical composition or the I P. But

569
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: let me tell you this, some companies are coming to

570
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: artists saying, hey, you can do this some big platform

571
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,959
Speaker 1: where we where the fans buy and invest into your art.

572
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: And it's the fans that are all investing in buying,

573
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: and you can make so much more money because you're

574
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: fractionalizing this and and this violates this security laws. So

575
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: you've got to be very careful about that, you know

576
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: what I mean. You have to say, whoa, We'll wait

577
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: a second. You think about outdated laws, Okay, the outdated

578
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: law for securities is from that's still the law of

579
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 1: the how we test. Okay. So it's like I mean,

580
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: the good news is is some of the commissioners of

581
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: the SEC now are crypto friendly. They're very crypto you

582
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: know friendly, and their knowledgeable, and even the Biden administration

583
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: has put out some positive statements, although some of the

584
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: cabinet and the Biden administration is very against it because

585
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: of the Monday laundering and especially now with the Taliban

586
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: and things overseas. So we're like, you could hide cash

587
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: in ethereum hands down. So it is very very, very

588
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: very dangerous sometimes, you know, and I tell clients and go,

589
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: I tell clients, Great, you're gonna do an n f T.

590
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: You're going to stay away from anything that possibly implicates

591
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: the SEC. Anything that implicates the SEC. You're not doing it. Yeah,

592
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: it seems like it needs it's complicated some regulation. Where

593
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: is everything else we talked about like too much regulation?

594
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: This actually needs regulation. I'm an activist and I'm about change.

595
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: So I always tell people if I wanted to follow

596
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: the laws, i'd be a cop. Okay, I'm a lawyer.

597
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: I changed the laws. Oh my god, everyone before warned

598
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: Dina Lapolee has the receipts and she's not afraid to

599
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: use them. Dina, thanks so much for being with us

600
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: on Strictly Business. Thanks for having me. Surely tune in

601
00:35:53,800 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: next week for another episode of Strictly Business. Some film,

602
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: Deep declat Etything, Decay