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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: We all go through childhood wondering who our parents are

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Speaker 2: when they're not mom or dad. That's why some of

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Speaker 2: us eavesdrop, sneak into closets and rummage through dresser.

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Speaker 3: Drawers in secret.

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Speaker 2: As adults, we have to decide how much to dig

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Speaker 2: and how much to let lie.

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Speaker 1: That's Francisca Fontana, Award winning reporter for The Wall Street Journal,

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Speaker 1: an author of the Family Snitch, a daughter's memoir of

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Speaker 1: truth and lies. Francesca's is a story of being lied

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Speaker 1: to and gas lip by someone she loves, her own father.

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Speaker 1: It's also a story about a young woman's resilience and

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Speaker 1: the ways that her upbringing shaped her. I'm Danny sh

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Speaker 1: and this is family Secrets, the secrets that are kept

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Speaker 1: from us, the secrets we keep from others, and the

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Speaker 1: secrets we keep from ourselves. Tell me about the landscape

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Speaker 1: of your childhood. Where did you grow up and what

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Speaker 1: are some of your early memories of just being a

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Speaker 1: little kid.

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Speaker 2: My family's from Chicago, specifically the Southwest side of Chicago.

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Speaker 2: That's where I grew up until I was ten years old.

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Speaker 2: My mom was my primary parent, so my early childhood

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Speaker 2: is really.

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Speaker 3: All warm because of her.

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Speaker 2: You know, all of the memories of going to Oak

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Speaker 2: Park and seeing the Frank Lloyd Wright houses and you know,

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Speaker 2: going to the Field Museum, all of those memories are

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Speaker 2: very centered around my mother Mia. My first memory, which

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Speaker 2: I've interrogated a lot to make sure it really is

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Speaker 2: the earliest, you know, I remember, is my mom and

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Speaker 2: I leaving my dad. They were together until I was five.

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Speaker 2: They were never married. They had a complicated relationship. He

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Speaker 2: was unfaithful, as adults in my life put it. And

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't say they split up because really what happened

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Speaker 2: was they got into an argument on Christmas Day when

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Speaker 2: I was five.

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Speaker 3: Years old, and we left while he was at work.

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Speaker 2: He ran a bodybuilding gym. He was a bodybuilder, He

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Speaker 2: built motorcycles. So after the argument, he you know, put

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Speaker 2: on his leather jacket, got on his bike and went

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Speaker 2: to work. My mom packed up everything she could and

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Speaker 2: we left. So that's my first memory, and it's prompted

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Speaker 2: the question in my work as a writer, you know,

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Speaker 2: who would I be with a different first memory, or

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Speaker 2: you know, why does my story you know, in my consciousness,

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Speaker 2: like the narrative of my life really starts there. My

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Speaker 2: really good core memories revolve around my mother. My dad

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Speaker 2: was less present. He was more of a special guest

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Speaker 2: if anything. You know, if this was a sitcom, he

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Speaker 2: would have, you know, a cameo every so often.

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Speaker 3: Do you think.

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Speaker 1: That that happening on Christmas Day has anything to do

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Speaker 1: with it being such a core memory? I mean, a

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Speaker 1: five year old on Christmas is Christmas is a It's

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Speaker 1: a real thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I still very much believed in the

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Speaker 2: magic before when I you know, when I got a

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Speaker 2: little older, six or seven or eight, I started hunting

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Speaker 2: down proof that Santa's not real. But yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: that my mom really made everything magical, including holidays, and

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Speaker 2: so obviously the morning started off with that kind of

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Speaker 2: magical quality, and my father had started the fight, and

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Speaker 2: so looking back at it, I could see how this

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Speaker 2: was just another instance of his problems or sort of

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Speaker 2: the messes he created bleeding into the world she was

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Speaker 2: trying to create for me, because she was trying to

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Speaker 2: keep me very insulated from all of his for lack

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Speaker 2: of a better word, drama, How did your parents meet?

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that for a very long time. I

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Speaker 2: didn't know a lot about my mom's life before she

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Speaker 2: had me when she was twenty four, and she was

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Speaker 2: very happy to keep it private. But as I went hunting,

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Speaker 2: you know, as I went reporting out my life and

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Speaker 2: where I came from, I found that they had grown

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Speaker 2: up in the same neighborhood on the southwest side of Chicago.

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Speaker 3: My dad was very rough.

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Speaker 2: He has tattoos all over of you know, daggers and

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Speaker 2: thorns and things like that. I only ever saw him

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Speaker 2: pay for things with a lot of cash, you know,

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Speaker 2: tied together with a rubber band.

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Speaker 3: And my mom was.

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Speaker 2: Very sweet, very self spoken, and clearly came from what

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Speaker 2: I thought.

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Speaker 3: She must have come from a different world entirely.

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Speaker 2: And so it was I never understood, like, why would

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Speaker 2: you even know him, let alone, you know, be with him.

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Speaker 2: And it turned out that my mom's family had been

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Speaker 2: terrorized by this this leader of a gang in their neighborhood,

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Speaker 2: McKinley Park Brighton Park area of southwest side Chicago. So

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Speaker 2: when she was, you know, thirteen or fourteen, her older

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Speaker 2: sister started dating this guy who was the leader of

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Speaker 2: this neighborhood street gang. And he was also the son

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Speaker 2: of a Chicago police officer. And he was extremely abusive

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Speaker 2: and you know, would threaten to kill my mother, to

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Speaker 2: kill her sister, to kill my grandparents, and would send

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Speaker 2: her to the hospital or shoot out the windows of

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Speaker 2: my grandparents' house. And so my mother really grew up

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Speaker 2: in fear of this man.

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Speaker 3: And my dad.

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Speaker 2: Was good friends with the guy. They would work out

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Speaker 2: together at my dad's gym called Al's Jim, and she

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Speaker 2: met my dad. She was probably around, you know, eighteen,

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Speaker 2: and she really sought protection.

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Speaker 3: And I had never really thought that my parents had a.

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Speaker 2: Love story because I never really even saw them together.

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Speaker 2: They were always kind of ships crossing in the night.

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Speaker 2: But certainly I understood that they were not together because

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Speaker 2: they'd had this like great romantic courtship or anything. But

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Speaker 2: it was only when I was in a old when

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Speaker 2: I discovered that really she had sought him out for

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Speaker 2: protection against this guy that reached tavoc on really her

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Speaker 2: entire adolescence. And that was something that I finally had

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Speaker 2: a bit of understanding of, you know, oh, that's how

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Speaker 2: you end up with someone like Al, because certainly they

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Speaker 2: had nothing in common aside from like where they grew up,

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Speaker 2: maybe like what high school they went to. You know,

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Speaker 2: but so that was certainly a revelation.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting the way that in time, you know,

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Speaker 1: these pieces of a puzzle can slip into place. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're a reporter. Do you think that growing up this way,

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Speaker 1: like trying to answer for yourself these seemingly unanswerable questions

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Speaker 1: maybe had something to do with.

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Speaker 3: Your growing up and becoming a reporter? Absolutely? I think that.

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Speaker 2: If I hadn't become a reporter, I certainly would have

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Speaker 2: been one in the office hours. You know, I was

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Speaker 2: incredibly nosy as a kid, and I was always asking questions,

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Speaker 2: and I could feel when I would be wearing someone down,

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Speaker 2: like an adult, like my mom. And it didn't just

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Speaker 2: have to do with my dad, but I do think

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Speaker 2: that my father being this big question mark in my life,

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Speaker 2: this person who really I mean quite literally, he appeared

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Speaker 2: larger than life because he was this massive guy, but

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Speaker 2: also because there was so much I didn't know about

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Speaker 2: him that he almost became like this myth and I

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Speaker 2: really wanted to know who he was when he wasn't

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Speaker 2: very seldomly showing up to my soccer games or things

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Speaker 2: like that, and like I remember circling my mom in

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Speaker 2: our front yard begging to know what the F word was,

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Speaker 2: because I had gathered what some of the other curse

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Speaker 2: words were, and I was pleading my case very ardently

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Speaker 2: that I would not use the word. I just wanted

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Speaker 2: to know what it was so I wouldn't accidentally say it,

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Speaker 2: and giving her every reason why she should tell me.

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Speaker 2: And then I think after some hours she was still

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Speaker 2: very patient, but eventually I wore her down. And so

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Speaker 2: I've had that quality since I was a child. It

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Speaker 2: just so happens that in journalism it's a feature, not

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Speaker 2: a bug, to be curious, and also to not care

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Speaker 2: about wearing people down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in a way, I think permission to be nosy,

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Speaker 1: permission to ask questions it's your.

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Speaker 3: Job, yeah, and to question. It's funny.

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Speaker 2: In journalism school, I always heard this adage, if your

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Speaker 2: mother says she loves you, check it out, sort of

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Speaker 2: meaning even the things that you think beyond a reasonable

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Speaker 2: doubt to be true, you still have to check.

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Speaker 3: You still have to do the work.

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Speaker 2: And it just so happened that, like my father, it

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Speaker 2: really the way that I say it now is like

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Speaker 2: if your father says he loves you, check it out,

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Speaker 2: because that's just sort of been my circumstance.

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Speaker 1: So in two thousand and three, you're nine years old

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Speaker 1: and your mother tells you that your father is leaving

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Speaker 1: Chicago for work. How much was he in your life

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Speaker 1: between ages five and nine, you know, once they split up,

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Speaker 1: did you see him, you know, sort of semi regularly

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Speaker 1: or what was that like?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw him.

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Speaker 2: The informal schedule was that I would see him pretty

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Speaker 2: much every other weekend, and on Wednesdays we would go

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Speaker 2: and get pizza in my neighborhood. My mom moved us

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Speaker 2: to a suburb of Chicago after we left him, and.

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Speaker 3: It was really up to him.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was always ready, you know, sitting at

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Speaker 2: the window waiting for him to come pick me up.

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Speaker 2: And it was really a coin toss as to whether

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Speaker 2: he would show up that day or whether he would

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Speaker 2: you know, call later and say that he got held

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Speaker 2: up at work or this or that. And so I

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Speaker 2: did spend time with him. I kind of felt like

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Speaker 2: I was on a field trip when I would be

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Speaker 2: with him. You know, we would go to the gym

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Speaker 2: and I would watch him manage all the machines and

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Speaker 2: the counter where people were buying you know, gatorade and

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Speaker 2: stuff and I would go with him to his family's house,

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Speaker 2: you know, for these big family.

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Speaker 3: Dinners and parties and things.

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Speaker 2: They have a very tight knit, you know, Mexican Italian

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Speaker 2: Catholic family, So any big party scene you think of

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Speaker 2: like the Godfather, it's kind of the vibe. And so

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Speaker 2: I would be in his world. But I never really

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Speaker 2: felt like I got to know him, and I knew

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Speaker 2: that he knew things about me too, Like I would

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Speaker 2: tell him if we were, you know, at toys r Us,

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Speaker 2: I would be chattering and chattering about, you know, what

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Speaker 2: action figure I was going to get. I never really

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Speaker 2: called him dad when I was a kid. It always

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Speaker 2: felt a little forced.

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Speaker 3: To call him dad.

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Speaker 2: But I wasn't about to go say, you know, hey,

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Speaker 2: Albert coming out of a you know, a seven year

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Speaker 2: old's mouth, that that's a little jarring.

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Speaker 3: So I kind of would just.

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Speaker 2: Tap him on the shoulder or wait for his attention.

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Speaker 2: I knew he was my dad. I knew he loved

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Speaker 2: me because he said he did. But I really kind

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Speaker 2: of felt like when I was in his world, I

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Speaker 2: was just you know, it was like being at a

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Speaker 2: museum or something when.

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Speaker 1: Your mom tells you that he's leaving Chicago when you're nine.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember that moment?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it was cold out.

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Speaker 2: I remember because my dad and I had spent the

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Speaker 2: afternoon together that day. It was one of the days,

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Speaker 2: probably on one of his weekends, you know that we

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Speaker 2: went to the Toy Story, we went to Portillo's and

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Speaker 2: got fries.

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Speaker 3: We'd spent the day together.

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Speaker 2: He'd bought me a PlayStation two and like a SIMS game,

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Speaker 2: And so I came home, had the best day with

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Speaker 2: my dad. And then a little later on in the evening,

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Speaker 2: I was in my room and my mom came in

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Speaker 2: and said that she had something to tell me, and

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Speaker 2: that my dad had called and he was leaving.

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Speaker 3: Chicago soon for a work trip.

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Speaker 2: And she didn't know anything beyond that, she didn't know

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Speaker 2: how long he'd be gone, or necessarily where he was going,

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Speaker 2: or when he'd be back. And I remember thinking three things.

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Speaker 2: I thought, that's too bad. I had a really nice

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Speaker 2: time with him today, and I don't always get to

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Speaker 2: see him as it is, so now you know, who

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Speaker 2: knows how long it'll be until I see him again.

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Speaker 2: And then I thought we were just together all day?

235
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Speaker 2: Did he just find out? Did something happen between him?

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Speaker 2: Dropping me off, and when he called my mom, like

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Speaker 2: he must have known earlier today, why didn't he tell

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Speaker 2: me himself? And then I thought a work trip him,

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Speaker 2: you know, like my like my dad. I had never

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Speaker 2: seen him where, you know, any other than like cut

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Speaker 2: off jeans and like a T shirt. And I had

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Speaker 2: seen on TV dads that went on work trips seemed

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Speaker 2: to wear suit jackets and Carrie a briefcase. I kind

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Speaker 2: of knew in my head this is a guy who

245
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Speaker 2: builds motorcycles and works out with friends, and I just

246
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Speaker 2: wasn't buying it.

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Speaker 3: In my head, it made no sense.

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Speaker 2: I believe it was probably as soon as the next

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Speaker 2: day my mom told me he's going to prison.

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Speaker 1: Were you relentlessly asking her questions or did she sort

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Speaker 1: of reach a point of just realizing that she needed

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Speaker 1: to tell you what was actually happening.

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Speaker 2: That's so funny that you asked that, because I think

254
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Speaker 2: this was one time in my childhood.

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Speaker 3: Where I kind of let it lie.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was having all of those thoughts, and

257
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Speaker 2: I could tell, you know, by my mom's face, that

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Speaker 2: this was serious and she wanted to make sure I

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Speaker 2: was okay, and so I told, oh, okay, thanks for

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Speaker 2: telling me, and then I kind of went back to

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Speaker 2: setting up my computer game, and I kind of was

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Speaker 2: turning it over in my head, and I think that,

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Speaker 2: you know, the next morning, when she told me, you know,

264
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Speaker 2: I have more to tell you. He's not going for work,

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Speaker 2: He's going to prison, I think.

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Speaker 3: She beat me to the punch. Really, when you're.

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Speaker 2: A kid, you generally trust what adults tell you, right,

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Speaker 2: And one enduring truth of my life at that time,

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Speaker 2: and you know it endures to this day, is that

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Speaker 2: I knew my mom would never deceive me. You know,

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Speaker 2: she would never try to pull a trick on me

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Speaker 2: or lie to me. And so that's where it gave

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Speaker 2: me serious pause to think, like, I don't believe her,

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Speaker 2: and I always believe her, and so I think that,

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Speaker 2: you know, by the next day, she had sort of

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Speaker 2: come to terms with the little information she was given

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Speaker 2: and figuring out the age appropriate way to tell me,

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Speaker 2: you know, what was going to happen.

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Speaker 1: So at that time, did you ask your mom questions

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Speaker 1: about why he was going to prison? And also it

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Speaker 1: sort of really begs the question. He had just spent

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Speaker 1: the day with you, and he certainly knew that he

283
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Speaker 1: was about to be going to prison. Yes, And he

284
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Speaker 1: left it to your mom to tell you, not to

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Speaker 1: tell you himself.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that was part of the course when it

287
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,400
Speaker 2: came to my dad in difficult truths. I think, for instance,

288
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Speaker 2: when I was around six years old, I found out

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Speaker 2: that my dad, in one of those times that he'd

290
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,720
Speaker 2: been unfaithful to my mom. As people put it, he'd

291
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 2: had a kid with another woman when I was two

292
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Speaker 2: years old, and I found out because we'd been invited

293
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Speaker 2: to the same Halloween party that was being thrown at

294
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Speaker 2: my grandparents house. And I knew I have a lot

295
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:54,320
Speaker 2: of cousins, you know, my dad has had nine siblings

296
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Speaker 2: in all, but I knew all of them. And then

297
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Speaker 2: this other child shows up and I don't know him,

298
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,240
Speaker 2: everyone else does, and I'm like, who's this kid?

299
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Speaker 3: And then my dad took me into another room and

300
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Speaker 3: explained it.

301
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,439
Speaker 2: Always felt like he would do everything in his power

302
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 2: to not, you know, be in the room when something

303
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,960
Speaker 2: hard had to be discussed, and that was certainly the

304
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,720
Speaker 2: case when he left it to my mom to break

305
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,720
Speaker 2: the news to me. I remember asking, why why is

306
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,439
Speaker 2: he going to prison? And she said she didn't know,

307
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,280
Speaker 2: and that was true. She didn't he didn't tell her,

308
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,199
Speaker 2: and she didn't know how long it would be. She

309
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Speaker 2: didn't know whether it would be here in Chicago or

310
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Speaker 2: what would be happening, because he'd given her a very

311
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Speaker 2: small amount of information. But I remember she said, you know,

312
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Speaker 2: this is personal about your dad. These are personal family matters,

313
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Speaker 2: and so that means that these are private, you know,

314
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Speaker 2: because this is your dad's life. So this isn't something

315
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Speaker 2: you know, we necessarily want to talk about it at

316
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,359
Speaker 2: school to your friends or on the playground. And I

317
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,800
Speaker 2: totally understood in that moment. I remember thinking like, oh,

318
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Speaker 2: it's a secret, got it, I can keep a secret.

319
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Speaker 2: Looking back, I understand that she was getting ahead of

320
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,640
Speaker 2: it so that kids or other parents at the school

321
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 2: wouldn't hear this about my dad and assume something about me.

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Speaker 2: But I do remember thinking that day going into school, thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I have a secret now, kind of like a grown

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Speaker 2: up secret.

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Speaker 1: And Francesca like, what would you like as a kid

326
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Speaker 1: in those years, like at school, as a student with

327
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Speaker 1: your friends, I mean, how would you describe yourself during

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Speaker 1: those years?

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Speaker 2: Well, this was before the like humiliation of adolescence had

330
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Speaker 2: made me shy, you know, I was very gregarious. I

331
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Speaker 2: was a tomboy, so you know, I was where ring

332
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Speaker 2: basketball shorts and like excel t shirts.

333
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Speaker 3: And I had a lot of friends.

334
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,359
Speaker 2: I had friends from Girl Scouts, and I had friends

335
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 2: from soccer, and I had friends from the like Gifted

336
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:17,680
Speaker 2: Reading group from band, and I got along well with

337
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Speaker 2: all of my friends. And it wasn't necessarily something that

338
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 2: came up a lot that being my dad. My dad

339
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 2: didn't really come up because no one really knew my dad.

340
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 2: If I had a birthday party and I invited all

341
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Speaker 2: of the kids from my class, it would be my

342
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 2: mom and my stepdad at the time who were at

343
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Speaker 2: the house. You know, no one ever really asked what

344
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,639
Speaker 2: my dad did, because really he wasn't in the picture.

345
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,680
Speaker 2: So it wasn't that hard of a secret to keep

346
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Speaker 2: necessarily from my friends. But I did struggle as time

347
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 2: went on, and I started to really understand how lonely

348
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 2: it would start to feel, because I would go to

349
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Speaker 2: my friend's houses, and a lot of them they had

350
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Speaker 2: both parents in the house, and they had this more

351
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 2: traditional household and family dynamic, and I wasn't envious, but

352
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 2: I was curious, I think, because I knew that I

353
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Speaker 2: had something different.

354
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Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.

355
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 1: Francesca's father serves a forty four month prison sentence in Yankton,

356
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 1: South Dakota. It's a long time for a young girl

357
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Speaker 1: not to see her father.

358
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Speaker 2: One of the things that my dad did tell my

359
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 2: mom was that, you know, I would be able to

360
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:48,440
Speaker 2: write him letters.

361
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,680
Speaker 3: He would write me letters.

362
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 2: We did phone calls, but he said that the prison

363
00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 2: didn't allow kids to visit. And I was okay with

364
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 2: that because I liked writing letters, and I had a

365
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,959
Speaker 2: lot of stuff going on, you know, in my little

366
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 2: suburban Chicago life as a kid, So I never really

367
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 2: questioned that I wouldn't get to go visit him. I

368
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 2: think I knew even then I wouldn't want to see

369
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 2: him in that context, and I'm sure that he wouldn't

370
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 2: want me to see him in that context. But you know,

371
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,880
Speaker 2: I can't remember how long it was into his sentence,

372
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: but I was still living in Chicago. The family, being

373
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 2: my dad's family, kind of picked up the slack and

374
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 2: filled the vacuum that was left when he went to prison.

375
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,880
Speaker 2: So on those weekends when I would have gone with him,

376
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 2: one of my aunts would pick me up take me

377
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 2: to go see my grandparents and see my cousins, and.

378
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 3: So I was still very much involved in that family life.

379
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 2: And there was one weekend where, you know, I show

380
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 2: up at my grandparents' house. All my cousins are there,

381
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:02,959
Speaker 2: and they're showing me pictures that were taken at the prison.

382
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 2: You know, my dad is in this sort of khaki

383
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 2: looking uniform against a portrait backdrop that reminded me of

384
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 2: school picture day, posing with you know, one of my

385
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 2: uncles and with some of my cousins, and they said

386
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: that they had just done a road trip, a bunch

387
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 2: of them, you know, some of my aunts and uncles

388
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: had gone to see him in South Dakota and visited

389
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 2: him at the prison. And I was confused because I

390
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 2: think I probably told them, but you know, kids aren't

391
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 2: allowed at the prison. That's what he told my mom.

392
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 2: That's why I didn't go visit him. And then they

393
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 2: just sort of looked like, oh, no, she doesn't know,

394
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 2: you know. So that was just another moment where I

395
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: kind of had in the back of my mind thinking,

396
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 2: I don't think I can trust what my dad tells me.

397
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 2: And I never really had that much trust in him

398
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: to begin with. But I think that while he was gone,

399
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 2: that's where some of the resentments started to grow. And

400
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 2: also we would write letters back and forth, and he

401
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 2: would tell me about, you know, that the prison looks

402
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 2: like a college campus, and that he does all the

403
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: same things he does at home. He works out and

404
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 2: eats and they get to play softball. And he would

405
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 2: always say by Christmas, I'll be home. I'll be home

406
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: this Christmas, and then this Christmas would come and go,

407
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 2: and then he would be saying this summer, when you're

408
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 2: out for school, then I'll be home, and then the

409
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 2: summer would come and go. And I can't speak to

410
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: why he chose to do that, but I can say that,

411
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 2: you know, my own as a child, I used my

412
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: own kind of logic, and I decided that he was

413
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: telling me these things even though you know, they would

414
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 2: end up not coming true, and I would feel disappointed

415
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: and I would feel a little stupid, like I'd been

416
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 2: takeing and for a ride.

417
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: I decided that.

418
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 2: He was telling me these things even though they didn't

419
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: end up being true, because he didn't know when he

420
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 2: was coming home, and that he wanted to give me

421
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 2: some comfort.

422
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 3: So that was the story.

423
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 2: I told myself, and it wasn't the truth, but it

424
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 2: gave me, you know, at nine ten years old, more

425
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: of a feeling of I guess control and sort of

426
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 2: making up my own understanding. And it would also sort

427
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: of act as a balm for the next time he

428
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 2: said I'll be here, you know, I'll be back home

429
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 2: at Thanksgiving, and then Thanksgiving would come and go. I

430
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't feel as stupid.

431
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 1: And what was your understanding at that time of why

432
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: he was in prison.

433
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 2: I didn't know why he was in prison at that time.

434
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: I don't believe he told my mom, and he and

435
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: I never talked about it, but I would hear things

436
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: through my cousins who were a tiny bit older me.

437
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 3: And so someone said.

438
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: They thought it had something I do with stolen motorcycles,

439
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 2: and another said they heard something about him dressing up

440
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 2: as a cop, which I thought was silly and bizarre

441
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 2: and totally.

442
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 3: Not what actually happened.

443
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 2: Because I was a kid, I was like, well, why

444
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 2: would you pretend to be a cop? That doesn't make

445
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: any sense. And it wasn't until he came back, until

446
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 2: he was done with his time in prison, that he

447
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: did sort of hurriedly explain you know that he'd impersonated

448
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 2: a cop and gotten involved with the wrong people. But

449
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: at that time, as a kid, I did not know

450
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 2: even though what actually ended up being the truth, it

451
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 2: was floating around.

452
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: And during those years did you keep this secret? Was

453
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: there anyone you ever shared it with? I mean, where

454
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: did the secret sort of live inside of you? And

455
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: how much pressure did it create?

456
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 3: Well?

457
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: I was allowed to talk about it, and I hesitate

458
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 2: to say aloud because I think my mom really felt

459
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 2: for me, and it wasn't like she was checking in

460
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: every so often saying like, Okay, you haven't told anyone, right,

461
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: But my cousins knew, and so I was able to

462
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: talk about it with them. I had a family friend

463
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: that my mom was really close to her mom, and

464
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 2: so that was sort.

465
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 3: Of a safe space where I could talk about my dad.

466
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:30,160
Speaker 2: But I never told anyone at school because just as

467
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: I was a very persistent kid who always wanting to

468
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: know everything, I.

469
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 3: Was also a big rule follower. I loved rules, I

470
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 3: loved order.

471
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 2: But I remember once trying to get around what I

472
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: saw as the rules, which is that you can't say

473
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: what happened to your dad. There was one summer that

474
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: my friend and I were playing in her big inflatable

475
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: pool in their backyard and we were playing charades, and

476
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 2: I think I had said, like, Okay, I'm going to

477
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: act out like where my dad is, and she was

478
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 2: like okay, And I tried my best to like mime,

479
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: you know, being in prison, like I guess maybe I did,

480
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: like the bars of a jail cell, like I was

481
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: trying to act it out, and she couldn't get it,

482
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 2: and I could feel that the bit wasn't playing either,

483
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: and I wanted to keep having fun, and so I

484
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: just kind of said, okay, well, there's my chance. She

485
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: didn't guess it, and I just kept it going. And

486
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 2: I thought that that would technically if I didn't say

487
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 2: it and she guessed it, I'd still technically not be

488
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: GUILTI or I wouldn't have broken the rule.

489
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 3: But that didn't end up happening.

490
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: Well.

491
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: Francesca's father is serving his sentence. When she's at the

492
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: end of the fourth grade, her mom tells her they're

493
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: moving to Oregon, where her stepfather has a new job.

494
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: She also has a new brother. Francesca's mom and stepfather

495
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: have just had a baby. She's excited to go, excited

496
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: to see the ocean and the mountains, but she's also

497
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: worried that when her dad finally comes home, he'll feel

498
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: bad that she's gone.

499
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: By the time he got out, we were pretty firmly

500
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: established there, but my mom's family still lived in Chicago,

501
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: as did all of my dad's family. And then when

502
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: my dad got out of prison, he went back to Chicago.

503
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 2: So we would go and visit once or twice a year,

504
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: probably during the summer most years, and I would get

505
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: to see both sides of my family, and i'd get

506
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: to see my dad. And the enduring like emotion that

507
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 2: you know that keeps coming up with the memories is

508
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: I remember just feeling bad for him because I saw

509
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: it from his perspective, Like he left and I was

510
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: eight or nine, and then now I'm twelve and I'm

511
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: about to get braces, and I wondered if him seeing

512
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: me having grown while he was away, if that made

513
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: him sad. I remember, you know, being pretty aware of that.

514
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 2: But he looked pretty much this name as always, and

515
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: we kind of stuck to our old routine. When I

516
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: would visit Chicago, he'd take me out to eat, or

517
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: we'd go to a movie with my cousins, or we

518
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: would go see my grandparents, and that was pretty much it.

519
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: So now you're a teenager, and so I mean, you've

520
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: picked up these bits and pieces of the story of

521
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: why your dad went to prison, but you certainly don't

522
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: have the whole story, and you try to talk to

523
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: him a couple of times about it. What's the feeling

524
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: at that time, Is it like this chapter's over and

525
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: we're going to put it behind us, or was there,

526
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: as I suspect, more of a feeling of like just

527
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: continuing to really want to dig and to want to know.

528
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, when he got out of prison, I was

529
00:29:58,240 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: surprised that everyone was.

530
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 3: Acting like he never left.

531
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: You know. It really almost felt like everyone's memories had

532
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: been wiped, and I was the only one who remembered

533
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: all the time that he wasn't there, because everyone just

534
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: picked right back up where they'd left off. And I

535
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 2: remember I started to feel resentment. I think that started

536
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: to grow more as I got a little older and

537
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: I understood that something big had happened, and most dads

538
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: I knew, dads of my friends didn't just disappear for years.

539
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: I felt angry when I saw how quickly the family

540
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: was ready to just pretend it never happened, because it had,

541
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: and I was struggling to realize how it affected me.

542
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: And I think I began to feel resentful because, you know,

543
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 2: I would see him once a year during these visits,

544
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: and unlike the time when he was in prison, he

545
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 2: would write me pretty often and we would talk on

546
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: the phone. I noticed that once he was out of

547
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: prison and back in his normal life, we didn't talk

548
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: very much and he didn't really write me letters. And

549
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: I started to feel hurt by that. And one of

550
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: the first times I went back to Chicago and saw him,

551
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: he brought it up first why he'd gone away, and

552
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: it was it was in the car he was dropping

553
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: me back off at my mom's parents' house after you know,

554
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: spending the day together, and I got the sense he

555
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: didn't really want to talk about it, but he was saying,

556
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: you know, that he was sorry he was gone so long,

557
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: and that he regrets it because you know, he missed

558
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: out on so many years of my life, and he

559
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: was just happy to be back, and that he had

560
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: been in prison because he'd impersonated a cop and got

561
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: wrapped up with the wrong people, and you know, he'd

562
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: never do anything like that again, and that he was

563
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: sorry and.

564
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 3: That he was back now.

565
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: And I never really quite knew how to respond. It

566
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: kind of felt not like a speech, but it was

567
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 2: certainly he was speaking in a way that he was

568
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: saying it to get it out of the way.

569
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 3: He didn't really want.

570
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: To have a conversation about it, and so he wasn't

571
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: really waiting for my response or my questions, and so

572
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: I just sort of listened and I told him, like,

573
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: it's okay. You know, you're still a good dad, you know,

574
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 2: because he would say things like I'm a horrible father,

575
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and so I took that information and

576
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: I'd replay it to myself and think, like, I still

577
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 2: don't get it.

578
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 3: I still don't understand.

579
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: He would always say like I went for a ride

580
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: with these guys, and I didn't know what that meant.

581
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: And so between the way he was dealing with this

582
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: weird half disclosure with me and the way that the

583
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: entire family himself included, was ready to just say it's over,

584
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: it's done, let's move on, I think I started to

585
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: feel bitter, resigned to the fact that I thought I

586
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: would never find out and that it would always just

587
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: be this weird.

588
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: Thing haunting me.

589
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: And I think it really tainted the way I saw

590
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: him because I was hoping that he would come back

591
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: and some change would have taken place, and he came

592
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: back and he's exactly the same.

593
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, the way you're describing it, it's almost like for

594
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: him and for his extended family, it just sort of

595
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: closed up around the whole episode, like with a zipper

596
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: and just it's not even like it never happened, just

597
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: more like there are no consequences for this having happened.

598
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, that's exactly right.

599
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: And I think a big part of it, too, was

600
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: if it ever did come up, there was the feeling

601
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 2: that you were doing something impolite, borderline aggressive.

602
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: And I think that the response.

603
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 2: Would be, you know, he did his time, he went away,

604
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: made up for the mistake. What else is there to

605
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: be done? And I think that that's certainly informed by

606
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 2: the deep Catholic faith that kind of held the family together,

607
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 2: of like he's repented, he's atoned, and he's earned the

608
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 2: right to go back to his life.

609
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: When Francesca leaves for college, she's not just packing boxes

610
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: and filling out financial aid forms. She's carrying a story,

611
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: or maybe half of one, a story threaded with resentment, silence,

612
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: and the kind of unanswered questions that hung quietly beneath everything.

613
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: She goes to the University of Oregon, close enough to

614
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: home but far enough to start imagining a life that

615
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 1: might be her own. She's the first in her family

616
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: to go to college. Her mother and stepfather are splitting up,

617
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: and she's working, paying her own way for school. In

618
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: the midst of all this flux, she picks up the

619
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: phone and calls her father. She tells him what she

620
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: really thinks, that he's been a disappointment, that he hasn't

621
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: been a good dad, and maybe worse, that he doesn't

622
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: even seem interested in becoming one.

623
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 2: It had this phone conversation where I really kind of

624
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: unloaded onto him all of this resentment, and then we

625
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: really didn't talk very much for the first two years

626
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 2: of me being in college. So I was going into

627
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 2: college pretty overwhelmed just by trying to like pay my

628
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 2: own way and learn the ropes and feeling like I

629
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: didn't necessarily belong because no one in my family had

630
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: gone to college, and I felt like I was having

631
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: to play catch up. Over and over again. But in

632
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: the back of my mind it.

633
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 3: Was always there.

634
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: I was always writing, and I didn't always think I

635
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 2: would become a writer, but you know, I would try

636
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: to write plays or I would try to write short stories,

637
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 2: and this story would always come out in a lesser form.

638
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: And really a lot of the writing I did when

639
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: I was nineteen twenty it's not very good because it

640
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: was me just trying to like tell this story, but

641
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: like tell it using different characters in a different setting.

642
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: And it was like, whenever I tried to be creative

643
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: and write something, it always ended up coming out and

644
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 2: so I sort of stopped trying after a while.

645
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: That makes so much sense. It's sort of it's reminded

646
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 1: me of the of the Game of Charades. Yeah.

647
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, I never thought about that. Yeah, totally.

648
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: I'm also curious when it all kind of came tumbling

649
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: out with, you know, with your father, because it strikes

650
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: me the way that you describe yourself as someone who

651
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: followed the rules and who picked up on his cues,

652
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: and he clearly didn't want to talk about it, or

653
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 1: he was not inviting questions, so you didn't ask them.

654
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: Was there anything that triggered just, you know, finally just

655
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: kind of an explosion of just telling him really what

656
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: you thought of him. Or was it just in the

657
00:36:58,680 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: course of growing up.

658
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: Certainly it had all started to accumulate over the years,

659
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

660
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 2: It wasn't a big thing, but we'd made plans with

661
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 2: a cousin of mine to go see a movie while

662
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: I was in Chicago. And if memory serves, I think

663
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 2: it was also when I was touring campuses and I

664
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: was pretty stressed out trying to figure out, like, if

665
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: I'm paying for school myself.

666
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 3: Can I afford to go to a school in Chicago.

667
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 3: When I was going on.

668
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: These campus tours by myself and then trying to make

669
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 2: plans with my dad, and I was waiting to be

670
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 2: picked up, and he called my mom and said something

671
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: came up.

672
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 3: The movie's not happening.

673
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: And it was very familiar to me, you know, given

674
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: that that's how it went when I was a kid too,

675
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: and I was, you know, a teenager, and so I

676
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: did feel like it was immature for me to be

677
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: so angry, but I was also a teenager, so I

678
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: didn't really care if it made me immature. You know,

679
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: he hadn't told me this. He told my mom. He'd

680
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 2: called my mom and said movies off. And so I

681
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 2: called him back and said, what's wrong with you?

682
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: Like?

683
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: Do I matter so little to you?

684
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: We spent a lot of money on airfare to come visit,

685
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 2: You've never come to Orion, You never call me. It

686
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: makes me feel like you don't care about me. So

687
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 2: I really unloaded. It was just a movie, but also

688
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 2: it wasn't just you know, a movie.

689
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 3: It felt kind of good.

690
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 2: I think when I started college to think like I

691
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: don't have to keep up with my dad because I

692
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 2: had finally said the quiet part out loud, you know

693
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: that I feel like my dad doesn't love me or

694
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: care about me. That had kind of given me a

695
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: little permission to just focus on myself and stop wondering like,

696
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: oh is he gonna Do you think he's gonna call

697
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 2: me on my birthday? Like do you think he'll send

698
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: me a card for my birthday? Probably not? And I

699
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 2: could just sort of focus on something else, but it

700
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 2: was still in my subconscious. It was just turning it

701
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 2: over and over and over again.

702
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: Will be back in a moment with more family secrets

703
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 1: While in college, Francesca starts researching she now has access

704
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: to journalistic tools, ones that might just be able to

705
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: unlock the mystery of her father's incarceration.

706
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: I remember that day vividly.

707
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: I was starting my junior year of college. I had

708
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: chosen journalism as my major, so I was well into

709
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 2: the reporting coursework, and a new professor had joined the

710
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 2: faculty at the journalism school, Brent Wolfe. This I believe

711
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 2: was one of the first classes he was teaching at

712
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: the school, and all of my friends at the college

713
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 2: newspaper had sang his praises, saying they had been his

714
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: intern he'd worked at the Oregonian, and then he'd worked

715
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 2: at willam At Week, an old weekly in Portland, and

716
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 2: they all just said he was the best and that

717
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 2: you had if you could like take his class, and

718
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: so I did. I remember that day in his class

719
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: he introduced the lesson, and it was on public records,

720
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 2: because we were going to be profiling an Oregon politician

721
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: and backgrounding them using public records, and so that day

722
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: we were going over specifically court records and federal court records,

723
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: and so he showed us how to use the database.

724
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,240
Speaker 2: He pulled up PACER, which is the federal court records

725
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: database on the Big Projector, and we looked up around

726
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: that time. Actually it was the Jared Fogel, the subway guy,

727
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 2: his federal case, and we really went through the docket.

728
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: I immediately thought, I know someone who went to federal prison.

729
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 2: I wonder if I can somehow, you know, get access,

730
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: and so I went to Brent's office hours and I

731
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: was very awkward, and I was saying, like, could I

732
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: borrow your login for PACER? He was like, well, I'm

733
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 2: not going to give you my login, but I can

734
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: look up whatever case you want right now.

735
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 3: Like, just what's the name?

736
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 2: I said, you know, my dad's name, Albert Fontana, And

737
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: then I had to do some explaining, you know, because

738
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,760
Speaker 2: obviously we have the same last name, and he probably

739
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 2: raised an eyebrow. And then I explained the whole story

740
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: to him, and it was the first time I'd really

741
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 2: told it from start to finish to anyone who wasn't

742
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: really I guess really to anyone now that I think

743
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: about it. And we typed in my dad's name and

744
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 2: the case from two thousand and three showed up, and

745
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: I was also surprised to see that another case showed up,

746
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 2: and I didn't know that my dad had been to

747
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 2: prison or had any kind of federal court case before

748
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: he'd gone to prison.

749
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 3: In two thousand and three, and it was from nineteen

750
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 3: ninety two.

751
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 2: And basically Brent said like, well, if you're working for

752
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: a project, and I had been thinking about all of

753
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 2: these questions that had been unanswered and making it into

754
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: sort of this like journalistic family history project, and then

755
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 2: Brent quickly became a mentor and advisor on that. And yeah,

756
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 2: so that was the first time I was able to

757
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 2: see that these questions didn't have to stay unanswered. It

758
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 2: didn't just have to be this big, unresolved story without

759
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: an ending, Like I could go back and I could

760
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: actually hunt the answers down that I assumed I would

761
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: I would never find out.

762
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: So is that then what you began to do? And

763
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: that's where you learned more about the incident that landed

764
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: him in prison for forty four months?

765
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 2: Yes, Brent sent me all of the criminal complaint affidavits,

766
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 2: you know, all these court records, and I printed them

767
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 2: all out the library and I brought them home and

768
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: I just spent probably the whole night reading them and

769
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 2: I was finally able to understand why did my dad

770
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: dress up as a cop, What did it mean to

771
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: go on a ride with some bad guys? And it

772
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 2: turned out that he'd had his friend group, people who

773
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 2: frequented his gym, people who bought motorcycles that he built.

774
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 2: There were these overlapping circles of corrupt cops and gang leaders,

775
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: and that he was always my dad was always the

776
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,720
Speaker 2: guy who knew a guy. He was not a corrupt

777
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: cop and he was not in a gang, but he

778
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: had all these connections and this was sort of the

779
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 2: community that he was in. And one of his friends

780
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: had been a part of this crew that was headed

781
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: by two Chicago police sergeants who for the better part

782
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: of a decade would in person on due to police officers,

783
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 2: and they would go to drug dealers' houses. They would

784
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 2: pull over drug dealers and they would perform fake raids.

785
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 2: They would have a fake warrant, they would bust in

786
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 2: in tactical gear looking like, you know, they worked for

787
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: the DA or something, and they would, you know, do

788
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 2: a raid. They wouldn't arrest anybody, but they would take

789
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: the money, take the drugs, and who are the guys

790
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 2: gonna call the cops saying, hey, a bunch of you

791
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 2: guys just stole my drugs. And so two of the

792
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: members had been Chicago police officers, one of them was

793
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: a civilian employee. And then the fourth guy Larry, Larry Knitter,

794
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 2: he was a mechanic in the you know, for the

795
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 2: motor pool and he was a very good friend of

796
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: my dad. So what had happened was one of the

797
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: two police sergeants. In two thousand he retired from the force,

798
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 2: and then he also retired from this side hustle. So

799
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 2: he you know, moved out west and they promised to

800
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 2: send him, you know, a percentage of future proceeds, but

801
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 2: they decided they needed a fourth guy. And really the

802
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: marching orders for Larry was to go find someone who's

803
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 2: big and knows how to keep his mouth shut. And

804
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: Larry said, I know just the guy, and it was

805
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 2: my dad. And you know, my dad said no the

806
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 2: first time he was asked to go on a ride

807
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: with them, and the second time he said yes. And

808
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 2: so that was what he had done in order to

809
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 2: land himself in prison. And you know, in two thousand

810
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 2: and three, he had gone on one of these fake

811
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: drug raids he'd impersonated a cop, he'd warn you know,

812
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 2: a police belt, had a loaded gun on him. And

813
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 2: the one time he went on one of these rides,

814
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 2: it ended up being a sting. So he was really

815
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: in the wrong place at the wrong time.

816
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: And so you were able to piece that story together

817
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: through your research. And so there you are, You're in college.

818
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 1: You have this miraculous mentor I mean, like, what a

819
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: great opportunity.

820
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, he's incredible, Brent is a phenomenal reporter.

821
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 2: Could not have asked for a better mentor.

822
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: So what then do you do with this? Do you

823
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: go back to your father with it? Where does it go?

824
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 2: So, you know, I read through all the documents and

825
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: I put together a proposal to make this project part

826
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: of my thesis, in part because I wanted to justify

827
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 2: to myself all the time I knew I was going

828
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: to be spending on it, and because I thought to

829
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 2: me it was a very compelling overlap between journalism and memoir,

830
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 2: two things I was obviously very interested in at that time.

831
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: And I didn't realize until I started to try to

832
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: make this my thesis that I could get funding. So

833
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: I was able to get a couple grants that gave

834
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 2: me the funds to be able to fly back to Chicago,

835
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 2: which I would not have been able to afford otherwise.

836
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 2: So it was also with the institutional support as well

837
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 2: as Brent's mentorship, that I reconnected with my dad over

838
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: the phone. I told him I was working on this

839
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: school project, and he said he's an open book. He

840
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 2: told me anything I want to know, he'll tell me.

841
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: And so then I flew back to Chicago on a

842
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 2: thesis research trip, and I reconnected with my dad for

843
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: the first time really as an adult. And that's when

844
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 2: I started doing a lot of the reporting. Because the

845
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: records could only take me so far. I wanted to

846
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: not only interview and talk to my dad, I also

847
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,919
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to family members. I wanted to talk

848
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 2: to some of the Chicago Tribune staff who'd covered the case.

849
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 2: I wanted to interview some of the attorneys involved in

850
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 2: the case. And there was also this big question mark

851
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:16,959
Speaker 2: because one of the four original crew members of this

852
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 2: group of people doing these fake raids, one of the four,

853
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 2: one of the police officers, had become a fugitive.

854
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 3: So, you know, my dad.

855
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: And three other men went to prison, you know, as

856
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 2: part of this case, but the ring leader names Eddie Hicks.

857
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: He disappeared on the eve of his trial, and he

858
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,879
Speaker 2: had been a fugitive. So when I started this project,

859
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 2: it was also you know, I needed to talk to

860
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 2: people because a lot of the for instance, the exhibits,

861
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 2: a lot of the case was still sealed because technically

862
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: it was still open because Hicks was a fugitive and

863
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 2: hopefully he would be brought to trial. But in the

864
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 2: meantime there were limits to how much I could get

865
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:04,280
Speaker 2: just in public record.

866
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: So then what happens in the intervening years. You write

867
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: this thesis, You graduate from college, where do you go

868
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: from there?

869
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 2: So I defended my thesis the spring of my senior year.

870
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: I graduated, I think on a Tuesday, and then that Friday,

871
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: I flew to New York for an internship at the

872
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal, and I think my first day was

873
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 2: that next Monday. So it was really kind of a whirlwind,

874
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 2: and I was very excited to at least for the summer,

875
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: be gainfully employed and sinking my teeth into stories that

876
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with me and reporting that wasn't

877
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 2: so you know, emotionally fraught, and then you know, as

878
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: the summer was wrapping up. My internship was actually extended,

879
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: so I was still wor working as an intern in

880
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 2: September and my dad texted me that Eddie Hicks had

881
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: been found and he sent a link to a Chicago

882
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 2: Tribune article. And this was, you know, mid afternoon. I

883
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: was wrapping up, you know, all of my projects before

884
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 2: my internship ended, and then I kind of had this

885
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: like cold sweat because all of a sudden, I was

886
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 2: right back in it, this big project, and it felt

887
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: very surreal because I had I assumed he was never

888
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 2: going to be found, and I had accepted that that

889
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: sort of question mark would remain, that I wouldn't get

890
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 2: all the answers, and so I couldn't believe it. But

891
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 2: they had found him in Detroit, which is funny because

892
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 2: you know, the FBI wanted posters said that he armed

893
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 2: and dangerous and was possibly in Brazil, and he was

894
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 2: just in Detroit, living under a fake name. And the

895
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: Tribune actually a few years before they had done an

896
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: investigation and found that he'd definitely been coming and going

897
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 2: from Chicago. He was you know, signing property into his

898
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 2: son's names. His wife was still getting his pension checks.

899
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,879
Speaker 2: He couldn't have been that far. But so they found him,

900
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: and I couldn't believe it. And I don't think anyone

901
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: expected that he would be allowed to get a plea deal. Obviously,

902
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 2: if he was found, they were going to try him.

903
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 2: So in seeing this link come up on my phone

904
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,439
Speaker 2: that he had been found, I knew that then there

905
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 2: was going to be a trial and I wanted to go.

906
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: And so that day, also in the journal, I kind

907
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 2: of found a quiet hallway and I called Brent. I

908
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 2: knew that I was about to ay be swept up

909
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 2: in all of this again, but also I would be

910
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 2: entering sort of uncharted territory. I think, really what it

911
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 2: was at that time, I only really understand it looking back,

912
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 2: But I think I was afraid to finish what I'd started, because,

913
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: you know, in all of these years, my father had

914
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 2: stayed the same. I tried to return to Chicago when

915
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 2: I was working on my thesis. I tried to return

916
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 2: not as a daughter, but as a reporter. And I thought,

917
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 2: you know, any kind of sentiment or you know, emotion

918
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 2: would cloud my view, and so I tried to really

919
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 2: be as impersonal.

920
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: How did that work out?

921
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't partially because you know, my dad was

922
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: my dad, so he wasn't just a source. I mean

923
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: I would I would say to this day, my dad

924
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 2: is the most difficult source I've ever had, because inherently

925
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: our interactions are going to be colored by the fact

926
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 2: that he is my father and I am his daughter.

927
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 2: And for the first time in my life. In the past,

928
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 2: I'd seen how he manipulated other people in his life

929
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: to get what he wanted.

930
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,720
Speaker 3: But I had never really been the mark before.

931
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 2: But when I was in Chicago trying to interview him,

932
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 2: he would say, yeah, we can sit in your hotel

933
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 2: room and do an interview. I'd set up the tape recorder,

934
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 2: I'd set up my notes, and then he would tell

935
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: me to come down, presumably he was trying to find parking.

936
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 3: He'd get me in his truck.

937
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 2: And then he would take me to go eat, and

938
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: he would never come up to do the interview, or

939
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 2: he went behind my back and told his former attorney

940
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 2: not to talk to me about the two thousand and

941
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 2: three case. But you told me that he had waived

942
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 2: attorney client privilege and that I could talk to his

943
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,280
Speaker 2: attorney about anything I wanted.

944
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 3: And then it wasn't.

945
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 2: Until I got there and was doing the interview that

946
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 2: I found out that he'd gone behind my back and

947
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 2: tried to stop it from happening.

948
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: All the while telling you that he was an open book, yes.

949
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 2: And that he would tell me anything I wanted to know.

950
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 2: And so that's why when I knew the trial was

951
00:53:55,239 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: going to be happening, I was relieved because had been

952
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 2: such a difficult source. But also I was nervous because

953
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 2: in all of this I didn't want to admit to myself.

954
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 2: I hoped that what would come out of the project

955
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 2: would not just be truth and knowledge and understanding. I

956
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 2: had hoped that once I stripped al of all of

957
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: his masks.

958
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 3: And I kind of got down.

959
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: To who he really was, that there would be a

960
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 2: man who I could respect and who could be my father.

961
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 2: And that hadn't happened yet, and so I was still

962
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 2: hoping that, you know, at the end of this process,

963
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 2: I would see the real Hymn, and the real Hymn

964
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 2: would be someone.

965
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 3: That could be in my life.

966
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: And so I was nervous for the trial because I

967
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 2: knew that we're getting close to the end of the road,

968
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 2: and so far I'm not seeing it. The two things

969
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 2: that my father clung to in all of our conversations

970
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 2: about the case and about his involvement. The charge that

971
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: you know, he put guilty to was a gun charge,

972
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 2: and so he insisted to me that despite what all

973
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 2: of the court records showed and what he pleaded guilty to,

974
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 2: he never had a gun when he was you know,

975
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 2: when he was dressed up as a tactical police officer,

976
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: he wasn't carrying a gun. And he insisted to me

977
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 2: that he only pleaded guilty to that because he just

978
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: wanted the process to be over. He wanted to go

979
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 2: to prison so he could come back before I got

980
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 2: too old, I think was the way he put it.

981
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 2: But so he insisted that despite all of the evidence

982
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 2: that was accruing, he never had a gun.

983
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: Maybe the other guys did, he didn't. And the other.

984
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,399
Speaker 2: One was that the other thing he insisted was that,

985
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 2: you know, on this particular night, these four guys pull

986
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 2: up to what should be a drug dealer's stash house,

987
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 2: and they go in and they search.

988
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 3: My dad insists that while they.

989
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: Were searching for the money and the drugs that he

990
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:10,800
Speaker 2: saw in the television set in the living room, a

991
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 2: glowing a blinking red light that was one of the

992
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 2: hidden cameras, and he insisted that through the TV screen

993
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,240
Speaker 2: he saw this light and he knew it was a setup.

994
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:21,320
Speaker 2: He knew there was a camera.

995
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 3: He knew before anyone.

996
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 2: Was arrested, before the raid was even done, that it

997
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 2: was over. He knew it was the FBI long before

998
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 2: anyone else did. And that's what he told me. And

999
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 2: I didn't believe him. And I also couldn't understand why

1000
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,280
Speaker 2: he would lie about two things that, on their face

1001
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 2: they seemed so inconsequential, because you know, he still went

1002
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 2: to prison, he still pleaded guilty, He still went on

1003
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 2: the ride. Why does it matter whether or not you

1004
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 2: had a gun? Why does it matter that you think

1005
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 2: you outsmarted the FBI? And I understand now that this

1006
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 2: story that he was telling me, and that he was

1007
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,879
Speaker 2: telling himself, allowed him to still kind of come out

1008
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 2: the good guy. You know, I knew that going into

1009
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 2: the trial, it would probably just show me that those

1010
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 2: things were false, as I already assumed. But because I

1011
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 2: didn't have the proof beyond a shadow of a doubt,

1012
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: you know, the door was left open a crack for

1013
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 2: my dad to be telling me the truth I was

1014
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 2: very nervous about when I went back to Chicago and

1015
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: was going to cover the trial for the Wall Street Journal,

1016
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 2: I was waiting for those two things to come up.

1017
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 1: So then what happens at the trial.

1018
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: Well, it was incredibly bizarre to sit there and see

1019
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 2: Eddie Hicks because I'd been looking at his picture, you know,

1020
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 2: his mug shot or whatever was on the FBI wanted

1021
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: poster to see him. You know, he wasn't just like

1022
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 2: a character in a story in my head. He was

1023
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 2: a real man sitting in an oversized suit.

1024
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: You know.

1025
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 3: That was bizarre.

1026
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: Did anyone at the trial and know your sort of

1027
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: double role being there of Wall Street Journal reporter and

1028
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 1: daughter of one of the perpetrators.

1029
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 2: Yes, When I introduced myself before the opening statements, everyone

1030
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 2: sort of milling about outside the courtroom, and I introduced

1031
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 2: myself to the prosecutor, Sonny Pesqual, you know, and I

1032
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 2: told him who I was, And anyone I talked to

1033
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 2: they always said, oh, I remember your dad, big guy, right, yeah,

1034
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 2: like you worked out and so I was like, yeah,

1035
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 2: that's my dad. And so I always introduced myself with

1036
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 2: both of those titles, you know, as a journal reporter

1037
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 2: and my dad was involved in the case, and my

1038
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 2: Dad didn't have to testify, but his friend, Larry Knitter,

1039
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 2: the one who had recruited him into this crew, he

1040
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 2: was going to be testifying, and his testimony lasted several days,

1041
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 2: and I didn't know if Larry would recognize me, if

1042
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: I resembled my dad enough that I would be recognizable.

1043
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 2: I knew I wanted to try to talk to him,

1044
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: and he wasn't allowed to really talk to me much

1045
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 2: at all, but I did catch him going to the

1046
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 2: elevator after the first day, and when I started to

1047
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 2: introduce myself, he cut me off. He's like, I know

1048
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 2: who you are. Yeah, no, I know, I texted with

1049
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 2: your dad this morning. You know, I can't talk, and

1050
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 2: then he just sort of said that he was sorry

1051
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 2: that my dad got mixed up in all of this.

1052
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 2: So then you know, Eventually, in Larry Knitter's testimony, he

1053
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 2: reaches the night of the raid that ended up being

1054
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 2: a sting, and so the prosecutor is referring to various exhibits.

1055
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 2: One of the exhibits that they show is a photo

1056
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: of the gun that Larry Knitter gave my dad to

1057
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 2: carry in his gun belt, so Bruger nine millimeter it's

1058
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 2: the one that you know, my dad said never existed.

1059
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: And you write that you were shocked but not surprised.

1060
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: I know what you mean by that.

1061
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 2: To see it, it reminded me of Schrodinger's cat until

1062
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 2: you open the box. The cat is both alive and dead,

1063
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 2: and you have to open the box in order to

1064
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 2: see for certain which it is. And so I think

1065
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 2: it was sort of that feeling of opening the box.

1066
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 2: I assumed that my dad was lying because he was

1067
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 2: my dad and I had known him my whole life.

1068
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 2: But you know, like so many things that parents lie about,

1069
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 2: usually there isn't an exhibit that could be shown in

1070
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 2: court to definitively prove their lying. And so that was

1071
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 2: one of the first times I think that I was

1072
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 2: able to witness a concrete piece of, you know, unimpeachable

1073
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 2: evidence that al had lied to me, and to see

1074
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 2: it in such a setting, you know, in a courtroom,

1075
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 2: was really it sort of took me out of my body.

1076
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I wasn't surprised. I saw

1077
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 2: the dead cat, you know, I saw what I expected,

1078
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: But to have that sort of certainty and finality shook

1079
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 2: me in a way I didn't anticipate.

1080
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: And then at the trial, mister Pascual, the prosecutor, plays

1081
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: the video and your father had said to you, you know,

1082
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: if you see that video, you'll see me noticing the

1083
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:28,920
Speaker 1: red light. You'll see the moment where I know that

1084
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: it's a sting.

1085
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I didn't.

1086
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 2: They play the video, and I'm sort of holding my breath,

1087
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 2: and I write about this and the piece, and it's

1088
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 2: still true whenever I think about it. You know, seeing

1089
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 2: his young face come in the door in the videotape

1090
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 2: really sent me back. It really felt like I was

1091
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 2: nine again, even though you know, I'm sitting there in

1092
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 2: my like outlet store suit, trying to appear to be

1093
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 2: a grown up up reporter for the Wall Street Journal.

1094
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 2: Immediately I'm nine again, looking at my dad. And they

1095
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 2: don't play the entire video. But later I get my

1096
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 2: hands on the entire video and we watch a pretty

1097
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 2: long clip in the courtroom, and I watch my dad

1098
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 2: go around and I watch them all searching everywhere for

1099
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 2: the drugs that aren't there.

1100
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 3: And he gets close to the TV.

1101
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 2: He's obviously searching under the TV stand, maybe in like

1102
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 2: some drawers, or something, and so I see every expression

1103
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 2: on his face, and I knew that he wasn't going

1104
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 2: to suddenly in that video look at the camera kind

1105
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:44,959
Speaker 2: of like look at me, you know, and I would

1106
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 2: see him like see me being like the red light.

1107
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 2: But I imagined it over and over again as I'm

1108
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 2: watching the video, I'm like, what if he just like

1109
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:53,919
Speaker 2: we kind of like make eye contact and then oh

1110
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 2: my gosh, he was telling the truth, And what does

1111
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 2: that say about me that in my head I've branded

1112
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 2: him a lot? But that moment never came, because of

1113
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 2: course it didn't, and he searches, and then you know,

1114
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:09,959
Speaker 2: eventually they realize that the drugs aren't there, their luck

1115
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 2: had turned, and then they file out of the house.

1116
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 2: There was still more testimony that day, but when we

1117
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 2: broke for lunch, I walked out to the street. I

1118
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 2: just kept walking. I never came back that day because

1119
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 2: I just it really was a shock to have seen

1120
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 2: the certain end.

1121
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: During those weeks in Chicago, Francesca is in touch with

1122
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 1: her dad every day, either they have a phone call

1123
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 1: or dinner. By then, he's living with his girlfriend and

1124
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 1: has another child, a six year old daughter. He also

1125
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: has a new motorcycle shop. It seems to Francesca that

1126
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 1: he's back to his old ways, living the same life,

1127
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: just new players and a new spot.

1128
01:03:55,920 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 2: We debriefed about that day and the days of testimony,

1129
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 2: and then you know, eventually a.

1130
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 3: Verdict that followed.

1131
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 2: He really held court, and I kind of was so

1132
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 2: exhausted by the entire thing that I just let him talk.

1133
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 3: And I didn't tell him.

1134
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 2: During that week, like during the while the trial was

1135
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 2: going on, I didn't tell.

1136
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 3: Him what I'd seen.

1137
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,560
Speaker 2: I knew that I was going to have to not

1138
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 2: just as a person or as a daughter, but as

1139
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 2: a journalist. You know, if I was going to write

1140
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 2: this story, we go back to everyone for comment.

1141
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 3: You know, we give everyone.

1142
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 2: You know, we have no surprises policy at the Journal,

1143
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 2: and so no one should ever be surprised to see

1144
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 2: their name in one of our stories or to be

1145
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 2: unaware of what we're going to.

1146
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 3: Be saying about them.

1147
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 2: And so I knew that that policy, of course would

1148
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 2: apply here. So I knew that when I was putting

1149
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 2: together the piece back in New York and calling attorneys

1150
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 2: who declined to com or you know, circling back to

1151
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 2: Larry Knitter and all of those things. I knew that

1152
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 2: I would have to go back and do not only

1153
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 2: a thorough fact checking sort of like a fact checking

1154
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 2: interview with my dad, but also I was going to

1155
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 2: have to tell him, here's what I saw, here's what

1156
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 2: you told me. I don't believe you.

1157
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 3: I think that you have lied, and this is why.

1158
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 2: And I ended up going back to Chicago in October

1159
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 2: of twenty nineteen, so it was a few weeks before

1160
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 2: the story would run because we had to be photographed together,

1161
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:36,439
Speaker 2: which is funny to think back, because I can't really

1162
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 2: remember any time my dad and I ever posed together

1163
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 2: for a photograph. So we had a shoot with a

1164
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 2: photographer for art for the story, and then while I

1165
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 2: was in town, I took my dad to a sports

1166
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,480
Speaker 2: bar and I told him I'm going to go through

1167
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 2: the story from start to finish. I don't read it

1168
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,919
Speaker 2: to him, but I gave him, beat by beat, this

1169
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 2: is what I say you told me, this is what

1170
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 2: you say you saw, this is everything that came out

1171
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 2: in the trial, And this is the conclusion I come to.

1172
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 2: And I was a little shaken by how easily he

1173
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 2: just talked right over me whenever I brought up what

1174
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 2: he had said, he immediately launched right back into that narrative,

1175
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, telling the story. Even though he understood what

1176
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 2: this conversation was supposed to be. It was, you know,

1177
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 2: definitely like I talk and then you talk. But any

1178
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 2: time I would I would bring up another point, if

1179
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 2: it was something he had told me, he would just

1180
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 2: launch right back into that story and try to talk

1181
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 2: over me and just tell it again with just this

1182
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 2: greater emphasis.

1183
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 3: And then anytime I.

1184
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 2: Brought up something that conflicted with his account, he would

1185
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:53,680
Speaker 2: either kind of just act like he didn't hear it,

1186
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 2: or he would just go right back into his story.

1187
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 2: The first time I really tried to say I saw

1188
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 2: the gun, it's almost like I was even there. He

1189
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 2: just went right back into like, yeah, I never had

1190
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:03,919
Speaker 2: a gun. I don't know if they had a gun,

1191
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 2: but you know I didn't have no gun. And eventually

1192
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,560
Speaker 2: I had to like stop him because he was just

1193
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 2: on this roll, and I stopped him to tell him,

1194
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 2: I need you to respond to what I'm telling you,

1195
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 2: which is that I don't believe you.

1196
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 3: What do you make of this?

1197
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 2: And he just said, you believe one thing, I believe

1198
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 2: something else. And that was the closest he could ever

1199
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 2: come to. I mean, he didn't even really face the truth,

1200
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 2: but that was just the closest he could get to it,

1201
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 2: and he just couldn't go any further than that.

1202
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 1: Of course, Francesca had to look into Schrodinger's box. She

1203
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 1: had to see the videotape. After years of being told

1204
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: she might be wrong and thinking, well, maybe I am wrong,

1205
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: she needed proof, something undeniable. Francesca was twenty five when

1206
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 1: her Wall Street Journal piece came out, The stories that

1207
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 1: blew everything open. Now she's thirty one, with a book

1208
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 1: the same subject about to be released. She's turned what

1209
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,840
Speaker 1: could have been a lifetime of question marks into something

1210
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:09,920
Speaker 1: of her own making. And as she stands on the

1211
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 1: edge of this new chapter, the question remains, where does

1212
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 1: it all sit now? The story, her father, the truth

1213
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 1: she fought to claim.

1214
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 2: It's confusing to me how many years have passed so quickly.

1215
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 2: When the story came out. I had to deal with

1216
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 2: the aftermath from al and he had a bit of

1217
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 2: a meltdown, saying I never said those things, And he

1218
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 2: said and I'm quoting him like, I hope my dad

1219
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,919
Speaker 2: doesn't read this, because he's gonna think I'm an asshole.

1220
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 3: Pardon my language.

1221
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 2: The cracks really started to deepen in our already fragile,

1222
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 2: renewed relationship. So, you know, after the story ran, he

1223
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 2: began to call me frequently for over the course of

1224
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 2: roughly a year, in various states of distress, you know,

1225
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:11,679
Speaker 2: threatening suicide, asking me to take care of his young

1226
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 2: daughter if anything happened to him. He had told me that,

1227
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 2: you know, he was proud of me for writing this story,

1228
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 2: and he was so glad that I was working on

1229
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 2: it when I was working on it, but when it

1230
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 2: came out and he had to sort of face the truth,

1231
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 2: he just couldn't bear it, really, it seemed. So you know,

1232
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,479
Speaker 2: after a year of just having these escalating breakdowns and

1233
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 2: not just about the story, but about money, about other things,

1234
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 2: it got to a point where I had to set

1235
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 2: a boundary and say, I'm not in Chicago. If you

1236
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 2: call me and it seems like there's a life or

1237
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 2: death emergency, I feel helpless. I can't come help you,

1238
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 2: like I can't be the only one you're telling these

1239
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 2: things too. And once I set that boundary, he stopped

1240
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,640
Speaker 2: reaching out, so he would only really reach out in crisis.

1241
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 2: And then in the aftermath of the story, my life

1242
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 2: was progressing independent of him. I was trying to learn

1243
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:14,439
Speaker 2: who I was now that I wasn't a daughter searching,

1244
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,760
Speaker 2: and I found that every time I got pulled back

1245
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 2: into his cycles, I was getting pulled out of this

1246
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 2: life I was trying to build for myself. And so

1247
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 2: eventually it got to.

1248
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 3: A point where I.

1249
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:32,639
Speaker 2: I guess it was a bit of an Irish goodbye,

1250
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 2: and we've been a stranger for several years. Really what

1251
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:39,600
Speaker 2: was startling, I was talking about this to someone the

1252
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 2: other day, is that, you know, really all that needed.

1253
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:43,760
Speaker 3: To happen was I just stopped responding.

1254
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 2: And it sort of goes back to when I was

1255
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 2: a teenager and I was sort of telling him what

1256
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:52,920
Speaker 2: I made of him, and that it felt like I

1257
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 2: come after you, you never come after me. It feels

1258
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,519
Speaker 2: like I'm the one driving this relationship, but I'm your kid,

1259
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:02,680
Speaker 2: you know. After the story and all and everything that

1260
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:07,639
Speaker 2: came after, I found that, you know, for my own reasons,

1261
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 2: I had to estrange myself from him, and I was

1262
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:14,480
Speaker 2: startled at how easy he was kind of like practically,

1263
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 2: I think it came down to Al as a sort

1264
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 2: of a static person. He goes through his cycles, you know,

1265
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 2: building up his gym again, building bikes, trying to like

1266
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:32,679
Speaker 2: reclaim that past glory, but never was able to really

1267
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:37,599
Speaker 2: reckon with what he's done in a meaningful way. And

1268
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 2: I found that I had my own reckoning to do,

1269
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 2: not only with what's in the story for the journal,

1270
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:48,559
Speaker 2: dealing with the trial and the truth of you know,

1271
01:11:48,600 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 2: who my father was and what he's done, but also

1272
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 2: with myself. I had to reckon with my own motivations

1273
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 2: and really keep the score in terms of the potential

1274
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:04,680
Speaker 2: and actual collateral damage of my choosing to report and

1275
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:10,480
Speaker 2: write about my family and about the lives of relatively

1276
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 2: private people, and to tell my story and the story

1277
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 2: of my father, I had to accept and bear the

1278
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 2: burden of what happens when you tell the truth.

1279
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:27,200
Speaker 3: When my relationship with Al.

1280
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 2: Had deteriorated to the point where I knew it had

1281
01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 2: to end for good, there was a lot of grief.

1282
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 2: I've spoken to other people who have dealt with parental estrangement,

1283
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 2: and I think that in that process, I realized how

1284
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 2: much grieving I had done in advance, and that really

1285
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:50,200
Speaker 2: I'd been preparing for this moment, for this loss for

1286
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:53,840
Speaker 2: a very long time. I always was just trying to

1287
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 2: rip all of the masks off of him to see

1288
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 2: who he really was, and eventually I had to come

1289
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,920
Speaker 2: to terms with the fact that he's not wearing a mask.

1290
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,560
Speaker 3: He has shown me clearly.

1291
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 2: Who he is and what he is willing to live with.

1292
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 2: And that was emotionally difficult because I didn't find the

1293
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 2: father that I had hoped I could love and who

1294
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:26,519
Speaker 2: would love me, and I didn't find the man that

1295
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:32,799
Speaker 2: i'd hoped I could respect and introduce to my future children,

1296
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 2: and that our story was going to have to end there.

1297
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,719
Speaker 2: When it came time for me to make that decision,

1298
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 2: I saw clearly that it was not to sound dramatic,

1299
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:44,559
Speaker 2: but it was like it was him or me. I

1300
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:48,400
Speaker 2: can immerse myself in his life, or I can have

1301
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 2: my own independence and my own future. But I couldn't

1302
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 2: have both, and so I chose to what our story

1303
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 2: end there.

1304
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacour is

1305
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 1: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer.

1306
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:20,880
Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share,

1307
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,719
Speaker 1: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear

1308
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight

1309
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 1: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also

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Speaker 1: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder, and if you'd

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Speaker 1: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast,

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Speaker 1: check out my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.