1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio Coca, 2 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: Be good, I love you. Welcome to Ridiculous History. Thanks 3 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: again for tuning in. Let's give it up for our 4 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:41,319 Speaker 1: super producer, Max Freight Train Williams Coca. Indeed, they call 5 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: me Ben Joint as always with the one and only 6 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: Mr Noel Brown. No, I gotta tell you we talked 7 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: about it off air. We talked about it off air, 8 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: my man. Thank you so much personally, personally, thank you 9 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: so much for doing this episode. Well you're welcome. Hold on, sorry, 10 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: I just had to hear that real quick. It's a 11 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: fun sound um made by tiny Japanese toy you know. 12 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: Bed you might have noticed my lackluster coca. I'm not. 13 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by this topic. But I may have alluded 14 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: in the past that I have a certain phobia towards 15 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: avian creatures. Um and the big talking ones with the 16 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: big thick tree trunk claws. Those are the ones that 17 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: pure nightmare fuel for me. Don't want them, don't need them. 18 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure they're lovely to some folks, you know, if 19 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: you know, the doctor Doolittles of the world out there 20 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: have have at um, not for me. And the idea 21 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: that these these creatures, these these parrots, you know, could 22 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: in fact be intelligent enough to like swoop down and 23 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: have a chat with me, um extra nightmare fuel or 24 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: maybe it make it better? Do you make it more? Pa? 25 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, that's a good question. We'll 26 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: discover the answer here. Yeah. They usually uh, in my experience, uh, 27 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: higher birds of a higher intelligence, often outside of of 28 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: Corvid's birds of a higher intelligence, will often choose one 29 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: pet giant, one person that is their person. I've had 30 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: experiences with highly intelligent birds outside of the Corvid world, 31 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: both positive and negative, to be sure. And this is 32 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: something that's really close to myself to you for some 33 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: negative reasons. And of course to our research associate, doctor Zach. 34 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: One night over seep Top, a doctor appeared. But this 35 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: is no normal doctor. Who's there. It's Zack Zach who 36 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: the doctor named Zach And he's here to Billiard stress, 37 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: Jessica College pett Is cat teacher, history books at this stuff. 38 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: Let's go with other things. Yeah, how'll work Zack who 39 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 1: earned that nickname, by the way, folks, And uh, And 40 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: today we're gonna talk about a creature, a bird, a 41 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: gray parrot named Alex, who is often called the most 42 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: intelligent avian on record. The story starts in there's this 43 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: person named Irene Pepperberg. Awesome name, uh. Irene Pepperberg is 44 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: an animal psychologist and adopts one year old African gray 45 00:03:53,880 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: parrot named Alex. No. Pepperberg was a researcher at Perdue 46 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: University at the time, and she was studying something that 47 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: you know continually fascinates me man, animal cognition. Right, the 48 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: definition of intelligence? Does that elephant recognize itself in the mirror? 49 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: Does the dolphin feel lost? Does the canine experience love? Joy, uh, 50 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: jealousy or envy? Technically these are questions that humans have 51 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: grappled with forever and ever, by which I mean just that, 52 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: you know, the dawn of human history and all at 53 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: the very least sense, like you know, the first Disney 54 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: movie with anthromy morphizes talking celebrity voiced animals. You know, 55 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: it's certainly an easy thing for the mind to do. 56 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: As we as humans tend to be a little bit 57 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: self centered, we I think, assume that all other living 58 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: creatures see and experience the world in the same way 59 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,559 Speaker 1: that we do. Yeah, and this is something we're talking 60 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: about off air. This is one of the things that 61 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: fascinates me. First off, the h and the human uh 62 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: fad on Earth still doesn't have a workable definition of 63 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: what intelligence is, what it means. And there are a 64 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: lot of assumptions throughout, you know, the majority of human 65 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: history that non human animals are less intelligent. Right, And 66 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: then the pendulum swung to the point where uh, scientists 67 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: were saying, hey, animals, certain animals do seem to be 68 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: quite intelligent by these various metrics we can produce. But 69 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: are they is it the same sort of intelligence? Right? 70 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: What is the difference between sentience and sapiens? These are 71 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: the questions Pepperberg is tackling in this amazing story. Up 72 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: until she partnered up with Alex the parrot, most people 73 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: believe that birds were kind of ummies, you know, that 74 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: they had evolutionarily sacrificed a lot of stuff for the 75 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: ability to fly, and that they you know, the the 76 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: idea was that, Okay, look a parent, a mina bird, 77 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: maybe a corvidd They can make noises, a starling even 78 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: can make noises that sound like uh. They are responsive 79 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: and cognizant of a conversation. But they're really just mimicking you. 80 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: And that's that's one of the big questions about the 81 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: story of Alex, the so called most intelligent Avian. M hmm, yeah, 82 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: I mean we'll get into this to what it also 83 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: does bring into question the whole idea of even our 84 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: intelligence and like does intelligence Do intelligence and language necessarily 85 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: mean the same thing? Like, um, we can we we 86 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: learn language through mimicry as well, you know, when we're 87 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: when we're babies, and we get gradually more and more 88 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: adept at it as we keep being surrounded by the 89 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: those sources that we then kind of internalize, and then 90 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, language sort of takes on a life of 91 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: its own based on sort of set rules. I would argue, 92 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: I've never really seen a parrot go from being able to, 93 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, recite back some sort of catchphrase to just 94 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: all of a sudden speaking in complete thoughts and sentences. Um, 95 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: but I don't know, Maybe Pepperberg will will prove me 96 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: wrong there. But let's do start with Alex stands for 97 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: a thing. It's an acronym which we love. Here a 98 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: ridiculous history Avian language experiment or Avian learning experiment. Pepperberg 99 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: decided to work with the gray, the African gray, not 100 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: the Norwegian blue, which is dead already. And because the 101 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: monty pythons, uh, African gray partly because um, they have 102 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: clear uh the avin ability to kind of vocalize um, 103 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: with a certain amount of clarity um quote unquote again 104 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: uh and they are known for their abilities to quote 105 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: unquote talk. So currently these are actually also endangered for 106 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: it's by the way, at the time, um So at 107 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: this point she had three of the endangered birds as subjects, 108 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: one of which was Alex the star of our show. 109 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: Here and this lovely Wired article from two thousand five 110 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: pulls a quote from Pepperberg saying, um, they don't have 111 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: the same rock Polly Wanna cracker type of vocalizations that 112 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: some other parents do. So they're a little bit more 113 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: smooth operators, you know, a little bit more of like 114 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: that radio voice comes to parents. Well, I wouldn't quite 115 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: call them quiet storm. But let's let's let's play a 116 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: clip so everybody can get a sense of this. We're 117 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: just gonna give you a little taste of Alex the parrot, 118 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: not Alex Williams, who can post our track and Noel 119 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: next maybe we can react to this. Uh. First test 120 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: would be can you tell which voice is the human 121 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: which voices the bird? That's an easy one. Second, would love, 122 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: would love to hear reactions? All right, here we go. 123 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: This is from an experiment where it Alex is commenting 124 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: on objects that he is shown by his human friend. 125 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: WHOA that's right? How many? Child? That's right? You're a good? No, No, 126 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: you can't go back yet, nightmarish mark. It's like a demon. 127 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: So we will Uh, well it did there? Thank you. 128 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: So we hear Alex indicating a number of objects, right, 129 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: how many responds to uh? And he keeps asking or 130 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: he keeps saying I want to go back like he 131 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: he wants to Uh, he's kind of bored, right, one 132 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: could say if we're anthropomorphizing, and then what else does 133 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 1: he do? He asked for water, which might just be 134 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: him stalling. What what are your what are your thoughts? 135 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: You know, like to tell you're a little creeped out. 136 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: I want to go back to hell. Send me back 137 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: to Hell. I mean, it's just it's like backwards talk. 138 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: It's the kind of thing you hear you play exactly. 139 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: It's like yes, Black Lodge led Zeppelin demonic masking kind of. 140 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm really not joking here. That triggers me. 141 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: That voice is terrifying. It's not cute, it's not unnatural. 142 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: And I know why it makes sense that it's unnatural, 143 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: because it's not meant to form those types of of 144 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: of of syllables, those types of sounds. It feels unnatural, 145 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: feels it does to me. Yes, it does. Um, it's 146 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: like auto tune, but not as sexy. And uh, we're 147 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: gonna pull some statements from a June fifto article that 148 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: Dr Pepperberg herself wrote, where she says she recalls how 149 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: she how she starts hanging out with Alex. She says 150 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: that she was sitting across from Alex gray parent and uh, 151 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: it's year old, and he seems kind of nervous. And 152 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: she says, we're in a really small room in this 153 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: basement at the Department of Biological Sciences. They're at Purdue. 154 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: And she said, I thought, and I believe that parents 155 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: were smart and I could use a training technique, which 156 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: was revolutionary at the time, to change the way the 157 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: world thought about a bird brain. And as Pepperberg recalls, 158 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people didn't take her seriously at this time. 159 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: She even says a friend once jokingly said her path 160 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 1: was littered with the remains of those who said it 161 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: couldn't be done. Well, I've never thought that birds were stupid. Okay, 162 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: they freaked me out, um, but I think that's actually 163 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: because they're quite attuned to their surroundings and their movements 164 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: are very quick in their their response times are incredibly fast. 165 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: I think that's partly what's always freaked me out about them. 166 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: But if you look at the way birds like Migraine, 167 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: they almost have like this esp thing going on the 168 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: way they that with the murmurings and all of that, 169 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: like where they you know, move in these crazy arrays. 170 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: I've never thought birds were stupid. And you know, like Ben, 171 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 1: your fascination with corvids and their ability to kind of 172 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: remember faces and you know, seek out objects and give 173 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: gifts and all that stuff. So I mean, I'm leaning 174 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: in a little bit to my my terror surrounding this topic, 175 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: but I really do truly think the birds. Possibly one 176 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: of the reasons I'm freaked out by them is they 177 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,599 Speaker 1: possess some kind of otherworldly intelligence quote unquote, or just 178 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: a sensory perception. You know, I'll be honest, with you. Uh, 179 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: you're not alone. There A lot of people in fact 180 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: feel that way about children who also seem to have 181 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: uncanny powers. Max is raising his hand, you know, not 182 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: for nothing, are creepy kids a mainstay of horror fiction. 183 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: So this is weird because history hinges on such small things. 184 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 1: Alex was picked out of random from a group of 185 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: ten gray parents in a regular garden variety pet store, 186 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 1: so it's quite possible that a civilian could have picked 187 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: up Alex, and this entire experiment may have gone a 188 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: different direction. Pepperberg starts out with volunteers, some undergraduates, et Perdue, 189 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: some high school volunteers, and what she calls some other 190 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: faculty wives who were determined to help me make more 191 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: of a place for myself at the university than they 192 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: had managed. So this was crowdsourced. Everybody was interested, even 193 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: if they didn't necessarily think there would be substantive science here. 194 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: They thought, let's give it a go, and this went 195 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: against a lot of established protocol. Pepperberg had to get 196 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: the dean to agree to let her get a federal 197 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: grant or submit one, despite the fact that she was 198 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: not a appointed to the faculty, and then she talks 199 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: a little bit about her her predecessors. The folks were 200 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: informed this work, folks like Deepmer told that's Deepmer told 201 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: t o DT, who published an article about how he 202 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: had once trained a gray parent to do a duet 203 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: with him. And this was considered, in Pepperberg's mind, the 204 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: first state in two way communication, which introduces the model 205 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: slash rival observational learning technique that she used with Alex 206 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: the parrot. You know what toad means in German? What 207 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: does total mean in German? Well, the tea is a 208 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: little bit of an anachronistic spelling. And then I may 209 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: be overthinking this, but it means dead like to to 210 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: if someone is told them they are, they have they 211 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: have died, they've expired, doctor dead, dr died like kind 212 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: of kind of interesting. So Pepperberg essentially began to train 213 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: Alex along with an assistance um. They took on the 214 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: roles of kind of you know, presenting behavior for Alex 215 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: to model. They would experiment with different numbers of objects 216 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: and and colors and and things like that, and of 217 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: course it was you know, at this point, kind of 218 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: a conditioning or you know, kind of situation where they 219 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: would reward the bird with with praise or treats or whatever. 220 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: If the the desired behavior was was modeled correctly well, 221 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: which again like this is the earliest stages, right of 222 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: the training so or of the experiment. So whether it 223 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: continues to be just wrote memorization or training is kind 224 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: of tb D at this point. But at this at 225 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: this point they really just kind of starting to get 226 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: their heads around how do we train a parent to 227 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: like do human like tasks? Yeah, exactly. And this this 228 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: goes to the root of some of the criticism, as 229 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: we'll see. So if Alex answers correctly and identifies this 230 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: object or some aspect of it in a way the 231 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: uh the experimenters are hoping, then he gets praised. But 232 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: here's the tricky thing. If he answers incorrectly, he gets scolded. 233 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: That makes me wonder about you know, doctor did teaching 234 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: his teaching his parrot the duet? Is he is he 235 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: going guitar you? That is an e flat m uh? Also, 236 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: how does one scold a parrot? You know, you know 237 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: your body shamed, the wave a naughty finger at it. 238 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: It's kind of like, mmmm, that's a bad parrot. What 239 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: I like to do with my cats, is I I 240 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: just hold up my thumbs and I'm like, this is 241 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: why I'm in charge. I never forget. I am the 242 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: door knob, I run the But like you know, I'm 243 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: surprised that it was that they're talking about. It was 244 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: scolding instead of withholding, you know, a trink or something. 245 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, like, is it I mean for it 246 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: to even register to me with it, with it, with 247 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: a creature like this, it would have to inflict some 248 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: amount of pain or unpleasantness, you know, I just don't know. 249 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: I want to know more about the scolding behavior right 250 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: right net to v positive reinforcement. So this is part 251 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: of some of the criticism you'll see. But just as 252 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: we outline the process here model rival aspects, then after 253 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: he answers correctly or incorrectly, the assistant and the trainer 254 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: reverse their roles. This teaches, hopefully that language is a 255 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: two way street, so that Alex should understand he can 256 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: respond to questions when posed by any human, not just 257 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: the trainer. They're hoping to break through the idea of 258 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: a bird bonding with just one person, right, and it 259 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: seems that this met with success. Alex began to understand 260 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: the concept of two way communication. And this is a 261 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: this is a funny part. You gotta love this, even 262 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: if you don't love birds. Alex gets such a grasp 263 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: on this that he's starts interjecting. And if Pepperberg and 264 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: her assistants make mistakes, he's the one who's like orange 265 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: or whatever. And I think that's that's really cool. But Pepperberg, 266 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: being a scientist, also takes pains to note that, yes, 267 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: Alex seemed to be extraordinarily intelligent in the worlds of parrots, 268 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: but was not speaking language in the same way that 269 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: humans do. Not to mention, uh fabulous. All that is 270 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: interesting article by Amy lamrow Um that points out actually 271 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: has some really good video on it as well, if 272 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: you want to check that one out. All That is 273 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: Interesting Um points out that Pepperberg believed or concluded that 274 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: Alex was actually able to comprehend some pretty abstract concepts. 275 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: Also recognize the specificity of questions, um not just you 276 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: know that classical conditioning kind of Pavlovian response kind of 277 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: situation where you're essentially just training a creature to do 278 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: a thing based on a stimulus. A stimuli rather which 279 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: is involuntary you know at that point, like the salivating 280 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: you know, um for the ringing bell or whatever. This 281 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: would be more like what they would have done with 282 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: the skinner box. And like training what is it pigeons 283 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: and such spen or chickens to like pack a certain 284 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: number to solve a math problem. A lot of those things, 285 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: we know, we're used as part of kind of Huxbury 286 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: sort of circus tricks, you know, to to convince people 287 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: if this was an intelligent chicken by literally training it 288 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: to do a thing. Yeah, behaviorism, behavioralism. But this parrot, Alex, 289 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: seems to be a bit of cut above, uh, those examples. 290 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: At least according to Pepperburg, there were some you know, 291 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: ability to comprehend some of these more abstract kind of 292 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: niche subjects, to the point where I believe she ascribed 293 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: kind of a mental intelligence to the creature that would 294 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: be somewhere in line with like a small child, Yeah, 295 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: like a two year old human, a dolphin, a chimpanzee, 296 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: or uh the leafblower guy who must get an alert 297 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: on his phone whenever we're recording. So Alex does things 298 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: that seem emotional, right, that seems as though he is 299 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,719 Speaker 1: frustrated I want to point to a great article by 300 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: Denizia Smith in the New York Times, I Thinking Bird 301 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: or just Another Bird Brain. It outlines some of the 302 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: difficulties of objectively measuring the intelligence of something that you 303 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: come to think of as an intelligent human child that 304 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: happens to have wings or it's on that level. So 305 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: one of the telling things that is in that all 306 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: That's interesting article as well as the New York Times article, 307 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: when they're telling things that he would do that it 308 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: seems to exhibit emotional intelligence, is he would play sometimes 309 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: just for fun, the way that Corvid's chimpanzees and even 310 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: elephants do in the wild, an octopus under the sea 311 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: as well. He would also get frustrated, or appear to 312 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: get frustrated if he was done with a test or 313 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: if he was bored, he would say I'm sorry, or 314 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: he would slam his cage door. He would throw stuff 315 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: in frustration. He was a bit of a diva at times. 316 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: And yeah, we heard on that clip that you played 317 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: too band, I want to go back, drag me back 318 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: to hell. You know, when I was I was joking 319 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: about you know, it is a moment where several times 320 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: it's like I want to go back, and then the 321 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: researcher said, no, you can't go back. We've got to 322 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: do more stuff. But I think the implication there is 323 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: like I'm I'm I'm bored at this, this this shenanig, 324 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: shenanig me, you know, put me back in my house. 325 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: I want to I want to lap up water with 326 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: my weird black tongue. Hell for a bird, if it 327 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: has a concept of health, is probably being in a 328 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: basement and being experimented on and not being able to 329 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: fly free. And Pepperberg wanted to fly free with her 330 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: research segue Uh. She talks about how her first grant 331 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: did get a response. The response was what are you smoking? 332 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: She did not get any money, and that that is 333 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: kind of a quote that's from her her earlier statement 334 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: that we quoted. But she didn't give up. She sent 335 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: a second grant in and she got what she said 336 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: was a tiny bit of money for a year just 337 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 1: to see what she could accomplish, and she accomplished a lot. 338 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: Let's go to Diana Rice, psychologist at Hunter College, also 339 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: works in animal cognition with dolphins and elephants in particular, 340 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: and she calls this work revolutionary. But just like Pepperberg herself, 341 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: other scientists in the field are cautioning against saying Alex's 342 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: abilities are human. They say, look, the guy learned to 343 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: communicate and basic expressions, but he didn't show logic and 344 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: the ability to generalize that a two year old human 345 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: child wood. That's David Primac, Emeritus Professor of Psychology at 346 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: the University of Pennsylvania. He says, there's no evidence of 347 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: her cursive logic. Without that, you can't work with digital 348 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: numbers or more complex human grammar. And to be clear, 349 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: Alex never did a ted talk, you know what I mean. 350 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: He wasn't ever out there like lecturing people or prosecuting 351 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: a case in court. But to your point earlier, ban, 352 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: I mean, this wasn't exactly uh, the research gods were 353 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,239 Speaker 1: not exactly smiling upon this union. Let us say, right, 354 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: it was a very scrappy existence. In order to keep 355 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: funding required moving around, you know, to various you know, 356 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: temp kind of positions and and and professor ships or 357 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: adjunct kind of things. You know. So this really was 358 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: a a labor of love and something that that Pepperberg 359 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: was very passionate about. And it wasn't necessarily like I mean, 360 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: maybe the big picture, maybe there's someone that had vision 361 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: and was like, Okay, this is gonna be worth it 362 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: in thirty years, but for now, it's a very scrappy existence, 363 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: like kept losing grant money and then you know, to 364 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: your point Ben about what what is she smoking? Often 365 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: just treated with scorn and bullied in certain ways by 366 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: colleagues and in contemporaries. Yeah, but Alex was good at 367 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: identifying stuff. His vocabulary was pretty creme de la creme 368 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: as parrot speech goes. But he was even better at 369 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: identifying colors and objects and doing a little bit of math, 370 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: as we see in the Vintage News and also from 371 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: Dr Pepperberg herself. He could give a precise description whim 372 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: prompted about the shape, color, or material of a certain object. 373 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: And he had an active memory. So after he learned 374 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: the name of a certain object, key, coin, caesadilla, whatever, 375 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: he would, he would be able to identify that object, 376 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: even if it were in different shapes or colors. So 377 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: one example, like going back to keys, he would see 378 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: different types of keys, you know what I mean, Like 379 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: think of the old idea to kind of like little 380 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: little little plastic e oversized colored keys he might give 381 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: to a toddler on a ring to practice fine motor 382 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: skills or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, think of platonic ideals, right, 383 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: Like when you hear the word chair, you think of 384 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: many different versions of a chair, but you could always 385 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: identify it as a chair. That's a human thing. And 386 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: people thought, and Alex appears to have that ability himself, 387 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: and he did. He did something massive. He was in 388 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: front of a mirror and he recognized himself and he 389 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: learned what color his plumage was. He learned he was gray. 390 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: They told him, you know, that's you, buddy, that's you. 391 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: That's what you look like. He is one of the 392 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: very very few animals that has posed a question about itself, 393 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: its appearance, its existence, you know, in this sort of manner. 394 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: This is monumental. You know. Self awareness is a huge thing, 395 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: and honestly a lot of humans haven't cracked it, you 396 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's a glasshouse situation, that's right. 397 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: And even like a concept like um infinity, you know, 398 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: or zero for example, those are kind of abstract concepts 399 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: like you know, we can we can look at things 400 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: that are there and say there are like five things 401 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: there or whatever. But but to to be presented with 402 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: nothing and and and quantify it as something that that 403 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: that requires some some meta cognition, like we like to 404 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, thinking about thinking, because what do 405 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,479 Speaker 1: you mean there's nothing there? What do you call that? Well, 406 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: it's it's zero. But also the difference between zero and 407 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,959 Speaker 1: infinity are more related than one, my thing. So at 408 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: this point Alex can identify fifty different objects. He knows colors, 409 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: he knows shapes, um, he understands some of those higher 410 00:28:54,160 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: level meta cognitive concepts. Uh Pepperberg calls a zero concept. Right. 411 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: Pepperberg has never in her career heard of a bird 412 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: being able to wrap their you know, bird brains around them. 413 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: I'm not saying brains is a pejoraty of here. I'm 414 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: just saying it is the brain of a bird. Back 415 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand four, she was working on a number 416 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: comprehension study. Alex could look at a tray of green 417 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: and blue balls and blocks and then tell Pepperberg how 418 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: many of the objects were not only blue, but we're 419 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: blue blocks. This is combining you know, shape and color 420 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: in a in a way that's seemingly not just that 421 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: rope memorization. Yeah, yeah, And then she did something pretty impressive. 422 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: After they went back and forth on this trial of 423 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: counting and then also categorizing by color, she said he 424 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: might be giving some wrong answers because he keeps interrupting 425 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: gas for grapes, bananas, their toys. He might just be bored. 426 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: So she did this. She flipped the script a little 427 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: bit and she said, okay, Smarty, what color five? And 428 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: when she asked this, it was a trick question. She 429 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: knew there were not five objects of the same color 430 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: on the tray, and he said none. He didn't come 431 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: up with this word on his own. Pepperberg says he 432 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: knew it in that sense of absence we discussed earlier, 433 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: because he's been involved in studies on determining differences and 434 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: similarities between objects. But the use of none in this 435 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: case is novel and unique. And this speaks directly to 436 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: criticisms people have where they say, look, did the did 437 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: the bird really recognize himself in the mirror or did 438 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: he just happen to coincidentally just squawk some stuff that 439 00:30:54,320 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: seemed relevant impertinent at the time. So Pepperberg, no, she's 440 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: onto something. She starts mixing in this is going back 441 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: to the Wired article. She starts mixing in questions where 442 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: the answer would have to be none, and she gets 443 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: similar results. This gets published in the Journal of Comparative 444 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: Psychology in May two thousand five. And this is not 445 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: even getting to the super fascinating part yet. So we said, 446 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: Alex is illuminary. You know, he is a Nicola tesla 447 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: amongst the world of parrots. So you gotta get another parrot, 448 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: right if you want to do some real science. Yeah, 449 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: there we go. So she gets this other great parrot. 450 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: This parrot's name is Griffin, and she wants to see 451 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: if Griffin can associate sound sequences with quantities. So, as 452 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: every human listener knows, I just clicked my fingers three 453 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: times right click, click, click, so Pepperbird does something similar. 454 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: She plays two clicks, and she's hoping Griffin will come 455 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: in and say like true, But he doesn't say a thing. 456 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: The guys stone faced, he's totally en her. And uh. 457 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: Then she does two war clicks and Alex, who was 458 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: in the same room, just pops off and he's like four. 459 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: And then she has two more clicks. He goes six. 460 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: She says she looked at him and said, you want 461 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: to do an addition, you know, you want to do 462 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: some math. Fine, now, isn't this kind of what was 463 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: happening with that horse situation with clever Hans the horse, 464 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: they were like clippity clops, He would answer, I mean, 465 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: obviously horses can't talk, so the only way Hans could 466 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: respond to these math problems to clop his little horse hoof. 467 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: But a big part of the demonstration of that horse 468 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: was simple mathematics. Yeah. Yeah, And in that case, uh, Hans, 469 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: God love him is responding to most likely unconscious cues 470 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: from his human But right, and that's a big question here, 471 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,479 Speaker 1: knowing that parents do have a range of cognitive skills. 472 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: Is Alex simply watching, listening for cues, and slotting in 473 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: what feels like a correct response without really understanding that 474 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: four plus two equals six. These are good questions, um 475 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: Alex learned for pepper Burke too correctly put the numbers 476 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: one through eight in order using multicolored refrigerator magnets. And 477 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: then she says he on his own learned to equate 478 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: those symbols with the appropriate number of objects. So think 479 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,479 Speaker 1: of three things, right, and then think of the number 480 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: three and everybody using non Roman numerals is probably using Arabic, 481 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: right those that's where modern number symbols come from. Numerical symbols. 482 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: So Alex was able to look at just three regular things, 483 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: whether their keys, coins, slices of casey da, sorry, last time, promise, 484 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: and then immediately if you that can immediately equate that 485 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: with the written symbol three, that's pretty impressive. Uh. You know, 486 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: if we put the critics to one side, and you know, 487 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: this is obviously a very ambitious long term study. September six, 488 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:37,959 Speaker 1: two thousand seven, Alex Uh and Pepperberg look their last 489 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: looks and squawk their last squawks at each other. She 490 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: says that they went through their good night ritual. Try 491 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: to assume involved a kiss on the cheek, a little 492 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: tuck in perhaps, Um, you're thinking of the dolphin LSD experiment. 493 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: This is a family show. That's right, as a family show. 494 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: I looked that one up. If you want, you want 495 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: to get on a list of some kind um, it's 496 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: the thing. Um. But yeah, she said that these these 497 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: rituals would vary slightly. Uh. And this time she told 498 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: him it was time to go to the cage, and 499 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: the birds said you'd be good. Oh, we're good. I 500 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: love you. It actually sounded less creepy your impression. But 501 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: do we do we have a clip of this, Let's know, 502 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: not the final the final squawk. Surely this is a 503 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: tender moment between friends. Yep, we have it. Oh my gosh. 504 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: Well let's hear it. I'll try. I'll try my impression again, cook, 505 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: and we'll see what it actually sounds like. You be good, 506 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: I love you. All right, So we're gonna play a 507 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: clip here of one of their nightly routines, and he 508 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: and Ireen continued the night. He teen, I love you, 509 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: I love you. I'm trying. So that's an example of 510 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: of their good night routine, which seems oddly wholesome. You 511 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: know what's kind of pis are it is? And honestly, 512 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: at this point too, I feel like the bird's voice 513 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: is a little less shaky and creepy sounding than it 514 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: was when it started, you know, I think it's gotten 515 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: better and intoning and the kind of mimicking a little 516 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: bit more of an I'm sorry. Look all you bird 517 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: lovers out there who are cursing my name, I get it. 518 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: It's just it's I hope, but I didn't mean to 519 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: make it sound like the Exorcist voice or anything, you know, 520 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: that was very wholesome. Man and Picks are like, you're right. 521 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: So a year after the the the thirty years in 522 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: question that was supposed to be the tenure of this study, 523 00:36:54,480 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: Alex was gone. Mm hmm yeah. Why why wasn't that 524 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: enough time to fully understand, you know, whether this stuff 525 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: is real or not? Because it still seems like the 526 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: jury is kind of outben Well, it's partially due to um, 527 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: it's partially due to competing opinions about animal cognition, and 528 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: also also one criticism people will levy this not us. 529 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: This is criticism that gets brought up in the scientific community. 530 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 1: They'll say, hey, this one person and their team spent 531 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: three decades with this one instance of the gray parrot, right, 532 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: and so maybe they started putting out signals that they 533 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: were not aware of. Maybe they I mean, they certainly 534 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 1: emotionally bonded. Pepperberg says that she was devastated when Alex 535 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: passed away, unfortunately about fifteen years younger than most parts 536 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: and captivity. But what this teaches us, this amazing story, 537 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: whether you hate birds or you love them and wish 538 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: you could turn into a bird wherever you are in 539 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: the spectrum. What this shows us is that there is 540 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: still a lot to be learned about the living world 541 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: and about the other animals that we are so fortunate 542 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: to spend time with today. I would say personally, I 543 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: don't have them. I don't have the emotional space to 544 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: have a parrot roommate, you know what I mean. I 545 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: would like it to be more of an indoor outdoor cat. 546 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: But we also know that in in ancient native communities, 547 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: people were well aware of the tendencies. They also befriended 548 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: uh these animals and respected their intelligence. And there's still 549 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 1: so much to learn. The more we learn about the 550 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: intelligence of other non human animals, the more humans learn 551 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: about themselves, which is quite a beautiful thing. Agreed um 552 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: so hughes thanks to research Associate Zachary Dr zach Williams 553 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: Um for finding this topic and giving us something to 554 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: chew on. Um like a like a weird hooked, beaked, 555 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 1: winged creature might chew on a stick of seeds. You know, 556 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: it's the thing they like, they seem to like and 557 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: huge preemptive, proactive thanks to all our fellow ridiculous Historians 558 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: who will be visiting the Ridiculous Historians Facebook page. Post 559 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: your favorite funny, wholesome or creepy examples of Avian intelligence. 560 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: We love to see them. Big thanks to Mr Max Williams, 561 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: first of his name, uh big, Thanks of course, as 562 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: always to our favorite part Jonathan Strickland a k. The Quister, 563 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 1: who else who else? Big? Thanks Deves, Jeff Go, Chris 564 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: rossi Otis uh big. Thanks to you Know no man 565 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: right back at you, and Max. Thanks to you for 566 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: for all your gentle and approving faces you've been making. 567 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,399 Speaker 1: I've really felt seen on this one. Be good. We'll 568 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 1: see you tomorrow. Until next time. For more podcasts for 569 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 570 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows