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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 2: name is Noah.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 3: our super producer Andrew Triforce Howard. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 3: want you to know. Big shout out to TryForce. By

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Speaker 3: the way, you guys, he just gave us the coolest

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Speaker 3: what's the name of that surfer hand you do with

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Speaker 3: a pink chaka? Yeah, okay, that's different.

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Speaker 4: The chakra than the shaka are different.

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Speaker 3: Well, we have a big thank you to TryForce. We

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Speaker 3: have a big thank you to all of you, our

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Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realist tuning in. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 3: one of you, anonymous, hipped us to an idea that

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Speaker 3: launched a conversation so good from our listener mail program

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Speaker 3: that we turned it into an episode. We're talking about

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Speaker 3: this a little bit off air. Do you guys remember

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Speaker 3: the film What Dreams May Come? I know you do,

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Speaker 3: because we just talked about it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw it in the theaters. I think that's

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Speaker 4: the one time I saw, which was what like ninety nine,

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Speaker 4: Maybe it seems like a ninety nine er. I remember

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Speaker 4: it being visually stunning and moving, but thinking back on it,

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Speaker 4: maybe a little emotionally manipulative.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in nineteen ninety eight, it matched up perfectly with

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Speaker 2: the way I had been taught. Heaven and Hell work,

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Speaker 2: at least pretty closely with some of the stuff, where

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Speaker 2: you know, once you're in Heaven, it's kind of just

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Speaker 2: all the good things, but if you somehow get to Hell,

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Speaker 2: it's basically of your own creation, torturous place.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like Heaven is universally good, Hell is specifically the

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Speaker 3: worst thing for you. Yeah, And that's why Dante was

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Speaker 3: so oh so famous for the Infernal Reckonings, which is

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Speaker 3: really a political allegory. We're mentioning what dreams may come

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Speaker 3: because it is a visually stunning, if imperfect exploration of

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Speaker 3: the afterlife. As we're saying wherein no spoilers, folks, one

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Speaker 3: guy played by the legendary Robin Williams fights to make

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Speaker 3: things right with his family and his loved ones after

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Speaker 3: he's passed from what we might recognize as the mortal playing.

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Speaker 3: We're probably not going to dwell too much on this.

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Speaker 3: We just thought of this story at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: tonight's exploration because humans love stories, and in there, if

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Speaker 3: you think about it, the whole thing is about how

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Speaker 3: the protagonist learns ideas and thoughts have consequences and gravity,

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Speaker 3: like the conceptual metaphorical weight of what you believe in

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Speaker 3: your own mind has genuine effects on your sanity and

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Speaker 3: upon your soul. And in a recent listener mail program,

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Speaker 3: we also introduced an idea that's been long familiar to philosophers,

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Speaker 3: psychologist and the mad brilliant writers of Secure, Contain and

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Speaker 3: Protect SCP shout out the idea of the info hazard.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, the first thing that came to

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Speaker 4: my mind when I was thinking about this, or I

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Speaker 4: guess when I have been thinking about it in recent

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Speaker 4: months is kind of like a right wing talking point

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Speaker 4: that comes out a lot, the idea of the woke

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Speaker 4: mind virus, without being political at all. I just think

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Speaker 4: it's interesting it's been kind of politicized. It's this exact

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Speaker 4: thing we're talking about politicized in a way that's like

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Speaker 4: talking about how ideas can be infectious and can be like,

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Speaker 4: you know, a plague almost. It's a very interesting way

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Speaker 4: of looking at it. But it is also something that

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Speaker 4: we can kind of understand a little bit. So I

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Speaker 4: guess I get why it's become such a popular thing

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Speaker 4: to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Would you say a meme? Would you say something in

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Speaker 3: the zeitgeist?

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Speaker 4: I would?

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Speaker 3: We dare? Let us cross this rubicon together. The info

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Speaker 3: hazard the idea of information that can cause harm simply

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Speaker 3: by knowing the information? What is this cognitive conspiracy exactly?

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Speaker 3: And could it be real? Here are the facts?

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Speaker 4: All right?

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Speaker 3: The toxic thought? What is an info hazard? We talked

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Speaker 3: about this a bit in a strange news program we had,

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Speaker 3: oh gosh, fairly recently by an anonymous conspiracy realist. Thank

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Speaker 3: you anonymous conspiracy realist. We learned that the best current

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Speaker 3: definition of info hazard comes to us in twenty eleven

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Speaker 3: from a philosopher named Nick Bostrom.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Matt, I know you're a big fan of Nick Bostrom.

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Speaker 4: What's what's his deal?

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Speaker 2: His deal is that he says, and information hazard is

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Speaker 2: quote a risk that arises from the dissemination of true

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Speaker 2: information that may cause harm or enable some agent to

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Speaker 2: cause harm. Now it sounds a little bit weird there,

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Speaker 2: a little bit just because it's Nick Bostrom talking, and

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Speaker 2: that dude is smart. Ultimately, it's information that just by

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Speaker 2: thinking about it and knowing this piece of information, it

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Speaker 2: could be dangerous to you and or others.

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Speaker 4: And it's good because you can kind of slice it

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Speaker 4: a couple of ways, like, on the one hand, could

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Speaker 4: be conceptual information that just f's up your whole worldview,

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Speaker 4: or it could be actionable information that by knowing something

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Speaker 4: about something else that you shouldn't know about, it causes

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Speaker 4: some sort of moral quandary of like how do I act?

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Speaker 4: I sure wish I didn't know that thing?

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Speaker 3: You guys have my non physical tentacles quivering here to

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Speaker 3: acquire the information. Yeah, it's doubtlessly it's a concept that,

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Speaker 3: as we said, sounds maybe a little out there, little abstract,

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Speaker 3: but it's doubtlessly familiar to anybody who's read science fiction

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Speaker 3: or to certain cough cough, real world intelligence industries cough cough.

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Speaker 3: Bostrom's paper is called you can read it freely online.

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Speaker 3: It's called Information Hazards colon, a Topology of potential harms

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Speaker 3: from knowledge. It's first published in Review of contemporary philosophy.

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Speaker 3: He knew it was going to make some serious waves,

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Speaker 3: just like that fake whale we talked about earlier, And

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Speaker 3: why wouldn't it. I mean, it's twenty eleven, right, Cast

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Speaker 3: your memory back, folks. Civilization is already in the information age.

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Speaker 3: Most people, groups, and institutions are general on the side of,

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Speaker 3: you know, knowing stuff. People like knowing stuff. A bunch

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Speaker 3: of curious cats the humans.

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Speaker 2: That's like the Discovery heyday, right in the mid two

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Speaker 2: thousands to like the early twenty teens. That's when at

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Speaker 2: least Discovery Channel and all of those programs that were

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Speaker 2: out there that were specifically aimed at harnessing the curiosity

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Speaker 2: of humanity.

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Speaker 4: It was a golden time for knowing things the twenty tens.

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Speaker 4: You're totally right, though, it was cool. It was like

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Speaker 4: in theegeis. Yeah, you know, one hundred percent, we know

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Speaker 4: we were there. We were part of Discovery, the whole

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Speaker 4: edutainment wave it was, we were part of it.

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Speaker 2: The philosophy was let's learn as much as we can.

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Speaker 2: I think at least that's that's what was sold to me,

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Speaker 2: and I bought it hook line and sinker.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Halcyon era right, no stone left unturned. The

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Speaker 3: Foya acts are like now a philosopher's stone into speaking

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Speaker 3: of stones, the Foya acts orsovers stone toward some alchemical

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Speaker 3: pursuit of knowledge. You could argue that most governments, corporations,

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Speaker 3: and individual bad faith actors thrive on this idea of

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Speaker 3: knowing things. But also they thrive on knowing things while

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Speaker 3: at the same time denying access to information to other parties.

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Speaker 3: Give me your stuff, you can't see mine. This is

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Speaker 3: not only the concept of a lot of poker games,

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Speaker 3: but it's also the concept of information symmetry. That's the

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Speaker 3: fancy term. I don't know if it applies too much

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Speaker 3: outside of the world of intel. We know that the

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Speaker 3: public for a long time has always supported the idea

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Speaker 3: of free propagation of knowledge, what we call freedom of information.

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Speaker 3: FOYA is just the acronym for the Freedom of Information Act, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, we also know information is kept from us.

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Speaker 4: As the public name of show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's will show up at the end because

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Speaker 3: that is yeah. Uh, bost I can't wait to talk

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Speaker 3: to the guy.

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Speaker 4: Uh yeah.

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Speaker 3: Bostrom understands that too.

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Speaker 4: I think Bostroum gets it.

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Speaker 3: He defines two rough main categories of info hazards in

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Speaker 3: this paper. First, the adversarial hazard that occurs when some

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Speaker 3: information obtained somehow can be used by a bad faith

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Speaker 3: actor for some sort of harm. Again, these are very vague,

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Speaker 3: let's consider them umbrella categories. The other category is kind

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Speaker 3: of like manslaughter, Like you didn't mean to hurt people.

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Speaker 3: It's an unintended consequence when you learn the information you

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Speaker 3: you might accidentally spread information like a virus. Like let's

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Speaker 3: think of a pathogen. You know, if you were infected

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Speaker 3: with a disease or some sort of sort of communicable condition,

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Speaker 3: you might not always know that you are transmitting that

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Speaker 3: dangerous disease. Oh I just got back from somewhere. Oh

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Speaker 3: I just have a cough. I'm not infecting other people.

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Speaker 3: This is just you know, travel crud, or for the

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Speaker 3: nerds and the audience con crud. There's not no levelence involved.

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Speaker 2: I would I would lump most TV catchphrases and other

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Speaker 2: things like that almost into this category. They're just almost

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Speaker 2: annoying things that exist in your mind still from whatever

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Speaker 2: shows you watched or books you read when you were

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Speaker 2: a little kid, that still pop in your mind all

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 3: Airworms, medic airworms.

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Speaker 4: It's the tenet of advertising. I mean, it's the central,

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Speaker 4: like unifying principle. It's like, let's chuck these ideas out

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Speaker 4: that are catchy and like, hopefully enough people will remember

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Speaker 4: our little jingle or our little tagline. Yeah, and it'll

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Speaker 4: force them to do a thing.

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Speaker 2: Well in a weird way. It makes me just think

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Speaker 2: about my love of the show The Office when I

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Speaker 2: was a bit younger, and every time anyone says anything

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Speaker 2: that's even the slightest bit of a double entendre, my

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Speaker 2: head says, that's what she said exactly.

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Speaker 3: Another example. And they can be very short too. They

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Speaker 3: actually function better with brevity.

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Speaker 2: My wife, oh there you go.

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Speaker 3: You know that's a that's an emetic earworm, that's a horpact.

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Speaker 4: An older one was like a Rodney Dangerfield. Thing'd be

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Speaker 4: like take my wife, you know. Like like little jokey

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Speaker 4: things that become associated with certain comedians or even gets

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Speaker 4: so popular that they people don't even think about who

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Speaker 4: originally said it. It just infects the culture and people

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Speaker 4: to start repeating it because they've heard it. They didn't

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Speaker 4: even know where it came from anymore.

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Speaker 3: After a certain point, and Bostrom has proposed in this

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Speaker 3: paper again, in this single paper which you can and

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Speaker 3: should read, has proposed several subsets beneath these broader categories.

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Speaker 3: One would be data hazards or data your mileage may vary.

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Speaker 3: That's a piece of information that can be used to

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Speaker 3: cause harm. That's something like a like if you know

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Speaker 3: the DNA sequence of virulent pathogen and you have also

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Speaker 3: a little bit of homework on gain of function, then

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Speaker 3: you can make some you can make some nasty special effects,

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Speaker 3: maybe we can.

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Speaker 2: So the idea of just having that, having that piece

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Speaker 2: of information in existence at your disposal is dangerous.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be under adversarial hazard because someone who

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Speaker 3: wants to, for instance, weaponize something like smallpox by possessing

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Speaker 3: that information.

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Speaker 2: So it's an adversarial data hazard.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, We're we're doing taxonomy here, right.

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Speaker 3: And then we have another one that's very close on

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Speaker 3: a ven diagram here, idea hazard. IDEA hazard means something

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Speaker 3: like when you know how to create a thing, if

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Speaker 3: you have the right resources, you can create the thing

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Speaker 3: and cause harm. So, for instance, a data hazard, as

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Speaker 3: we're talking about off air, is simply the idea that

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Speaker 3: knowing a thing, the possibility that you know a thing

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Speaker 3: can endanger other people and potentially yourself. The idea hazard

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Speaker 3: is like the gun with some modifications.

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Speaker 2: So to me, it's like if you're thinking about somebody's

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Speaker 2: terrorist slash freedom fighter. The idea that is scary there

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Speaker 2: in a hazard is we need to do something about

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Speaker 2: this opposing force, this government. We need to do something

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Speaker 2: about these people that oppose us. The idea is we

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Speaker 2: need to attack them.

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Speaker 4: Could it even also be like a religious ideology could

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Speaker 4: be like weaponized in a way, like by having your

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Speaker 4: mind turned to a particular view radicalized. Let's just say

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Speaker 4: whatever causes that? Is that a data hazard or an

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Speaker 4: idea hazard?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And as you can see, folks, we are still

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Speaker 3: wrestling with some of the nuances involved here. We do

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Speaker 3: know that the third subset is the knowing too much hazard, which,

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Speaker 3: as you know, is anathema to this show. Information that

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Speaker 3: if known, can in some way cause danger to the

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Speaker 3: person who knows that information. It reminds me of some

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Speaker 3: episodes we've done in the past on our peer show,

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Speaker 3: our sister show, Ridiculous History. People who made scientific or

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Speaker 3: medical breakthroughs that threatened the social structure or religious thought

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Speaker 3: of the day. Shout out to the National Invention Secrecy

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Speaker 3: Act from the fifties. There are a lot of people

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Speaker 3: who have been straight up murdered by the power structures

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Speaker 3: of their evenings just because they said very simple stuff like, hey,

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Speaker 3: maybe the earth orbits the sun, or hey, maybe we

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Speaker 3: should wash our hands if we're surgeons before we put

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Speaker 3: them inside living human bodies. I'm knowing, Yeah, two very

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Speaker 3: specific people who got punished for saying those things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like the astronomer Giordano Bruno, who has burned at

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Speaker 4: the stake for his beliefs and his views on the

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Speaker 4: nature of the universe in existence.

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Speaker 3: Following Copernican heliocentrism or heliocentrism. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's interesting how these knowing too much hazards do

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Speaker 2: pose a real threat, especially to philosophical frameworks and theosophical frameworks.

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Speaker 2: So like in the individual, if depending on what your

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Speaker 2: beliefs are, right, if you know too much about certain things,

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Speaker 2: it can shatter your worldview essentially. And I you know,

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Speaker 2: I imagine somebody who's a member of the Church of

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Speaker 2: Latter day Saints learning a little too much about the

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Speaker 2: Golden tablets, right or scienolypics, yeah yeah, or or really

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Speaker 2: like a devout scientologist learning just a little too much

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Speaker 2: about el Ron Hubbard's past and his background.

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Speaker 4: We're about Xenu and all of the stuff they'll tell

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Speaker 4: you until you pay your way down the bridge, and

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Speaker 4: then all of a sudden you're like, sorry, this what.

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Speaker 3: And then you have some cost fallacy? Yeah yeah, notes

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Speaker 3: jeepers consider scientology tonight.

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Speaker 2: Well, especially because it's it is dangerous to you your

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Speaker 2: worldview the way and like family members, the people that

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Speaker 2: surround you, it is like actually dangerous that you might

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Speaker 2: learn too much about something. And even like the thoughts

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Speaker 2: of Tansey Bage that we talked to, this just the

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Speaker 2: concept to the idea that maybe Jesus's bloodline continued on

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Speaker 2: because maybe he had a line of children or something, right,

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Speaker 2: which would then kind of shatter the basis of a

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Speaker 2: lot of your at least individually held beliefs and potentially

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Speaker 2: your ability to believe in a church that's now in

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Speaker 2: your mind based on potentially false information.

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Speaker 3: One of the most shameful examples of the no too

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Speaker 3: much info hazard would be people in disenfranchised or marginalized

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Speaker 3: communities in the past who perhaps knew midwifery, who perhaps

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Speaker 3: knew how to help address infant mortality, like keep kids alive.

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Speaker 3: A lot of them got burned as witches back in

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Speaker 3: the day. And this is the fascinating stuff, because what

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Speaker 3: we're finding here is that wild Nick Bostrom gave us

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Speaker 3: the rules of the road as well as the nomenclature

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Speaker 3: to frame this in the idea of thought hazards is

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Speaker 3: pretty frick and ancient. When you think about it, people

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Speaker 3: have been killing each other over information since before the

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Speaker 3: moon rose on recorded history. I mean, think about how

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Speaker 3: often secret societies straight up murdered people you can't know

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Speaker 3: that handshake. Think about the mystery school religions. How did

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Speaker 3: you know about the Elysian mysteries and you didn't have

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Speaker 3: prior approval, that's a for you real quick. They didn't

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Speaker 3: have guns, so I don't know what that pop would be.

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Speaker 3: But you know, we're doing our own sound effects.

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Speaker 4: The sound of their worldview shattering.

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Speaker 3: There it is, there it is. And one thought experiment

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Speaker 3: we mentioned previously we wanted to shout out. Roko's basilisk,

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Speaker 3: originated in twenty ten on the Less Wrong forum before

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Speaker 3: Nick Boston's paper was published in twenty eleven and Roco's Bassilisk,

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Speaker 3: which we mentioned thanks to our anonymous conspiracy realist in

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Speaker 3: a listener mail program. Roco's Bassilisk is a thought experiment

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Speaker 3: named after the user Roco who posited concept.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a really interesting conversation when we talked

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Speaker 4: about it on listener mail, and in fact, a friend

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Speaker 4: of ours, Carly Ben who you know, hit me up

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Speaker 4: after that episode and said, you talked about the thing.

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Speaker 4: You've ruined us all, you've destroyed.

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Speaker 3: Us all, don't think about the game.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, we did do. To be fair, we did

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Speaker 4: do an existential dread trigger warning I think before that conversation.

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Speaker 4: But sorry if we wrecked anybody's you know, minds with

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Speaker 4: that one. But you know we were wrecked too when

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Speaker 4: we found out about it, so we're all on the

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Speaker 4: same page. What is Rocko's Basilisk by way of review.

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Speaker 3: Well, spoiler warning. If you're worried about info hazards, as

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Speaker 3: we always say, you can turn back now three two one.

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Speaker 3: In a nutshell, the theory argues that a sufficiently powerful

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Speaker 3: god of hate this term AI agent, would have an

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Speaker 3: incentive to torture and anyone who imagined the existence of

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Speaker 3: the agent, yet did not work ardently to bring that

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Speaker 3: agent into existence. And the argument is called a basilisk

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Speaker 3: because it's named after folklore, the legendary reptilian thing that

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Speaker 3: can cause death with a single glance. So the idea

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Speaker 3: is merely hearing, merely knowing about this will supposedly put

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Speaker 3: you at risk of torture from this thing, which reminds

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Speaker 3: us of some of the we talked about that poor

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Speaker 3: missionary who went to North Sentinel Island to save people

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Speaker 3: by converting them to Christianity. Again, to me, to one spoiler,

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Speaker 3: didn't work out.

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Speaker 4: Doesn't The AI in this rocos bassilisk scenarios seem intensely

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Speaker 4: petty to you guys? Is the idea, Oh, you didn't

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Speaker 4: do everything you could to make sure that existence. Now

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna punish you forever by like putting you in

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Speaker 4: a dream loop where you die or suffocated or drown

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Speaker 4: over and over and over again. Talk about a hell

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Speaker 4: of your own making, right, I mean, really petty. But

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Speaker 4: the funny thing is it's not that different than how

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Speaker 4: some folks describe the idea of a vengeful god. I

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Speaker 4: find very interesting.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you learn the truth and then live

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Speaker 2: without accepting and living in that truth, then you must

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Speaker 2: be punished.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I said it in this earlier episode. I think,

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Speaker 3: uh there was there was this great conversation with an

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Speaker 3: indigenous person and one of those European Christian missionaries where

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Speaker 3: they said, wait, so if you didn't tell me, I'd

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Speaker 3: be fine. They said, yeah, right, and he said, well,

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Speaker 3: why why did you tell me that? That's a that's

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Speaker 3: an old school info hazard.

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Speaker 4: And he's the question that many of you are probably

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Speaker 4: screaming at your podcast device right now. But you know,

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Speaker 4: Ben did trigger warning you, so we did. You did

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Speaker 4: it to yourself.

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Speaker 3: We gave you the Cowtown heyway. Roco's basts is a

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Speaker 3: terrifying love letter to the concept of what we call

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Speaker 3: decision theory and the interesting thing I don't know, I

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Speaker 3: don't recall us getting to it in our listener mail program,

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Speaker 3: But for this episode, what you need to know is

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Speaker 3: Roco's bassilisk. The popularity of it, the contagious nature of it,

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Speaker 3: is primarily due to another Internet thing called the stressand effect.

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Speaker 3: Because here's the deal. The founder of less Wrong, the

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Speaker 3: tech forum in which this thought experiment first appeared, as

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Speaker 3: a person named Eliza Yudkowski and Yudkowski banned discussion of

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Speaker 3: Rocko's Bassilisk on the blog for several years because they said, Hey,

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Speaker 3: just to be safe, let's ban any potential info hazards.

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Speaker 3: This had the opposite of the intended effect. Everybody got

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Speaker 3: super excited. Even the bob a rational wiki started assuming

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Speaker 3: that everybody on less Wrong thought this was true. They

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Speaker 3: did not. They largely rejected the argument without getting into

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Speaker 3: the weeds. The reason it got public attention and became

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Speaker 3: an acknowledged info hazard is just because someone tried to

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Speaker 3: stop it from getting out. Do we want to define

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Speaker 3: the stressand effect real quick.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just this notion that if you try to

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Speaker 4: suppress information, it just makes it more attractive to those

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Speaker 4: people who would seek to find it. The idea, I

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Speaker 4: think it was streisand like wanted a picture of her

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Speaker 4: house removed from the Internet or something along those lines,

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Speaker 4: and then by making a big fuss about it, she

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Speaker 4: drew attention to the fact that it existed in the

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Speaker 4: first place.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we also know in the world of info hazards,

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Speaker 3: our good friends over at Secure contain and protect the

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Speaker 3: inspiration for an amazing game that Matt you recommended to

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Speaker 3: me cold control. They love a good info hazard. If

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Speaker 3: you ever want to have a trippy night, load up

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Speaker 3: on your favorite vices I like coffee, and then poke

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Speaker 3: around their website and prepare to lose your evening. With

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Speaker 3: all that background, we have to ask how real are

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Speaker 3: info hazards? Do they go past thought experiments? Perhaps more disturbingly,

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Speaker 3: how real could info hazards be in the future. Here's

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Speaker 3: where it gets crazy. The answer to our first question

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Speaker 3: is a resounding yes, and we are sorry to report this.

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Speaker 3: Info hazards operationally are real. They're just not quite as

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Speaker 3: extreme as what you read in fiction.

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Speaker 4: But I mean, you can put this together on your

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Speaker 4: own just by knowing about the power of belief. People

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Speaker 4: can make themselves ill by believing certain things, and it

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Speaker 4: certainly can manifest itself cycle logically at the very least.

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Speaker 4: So I mean that alone makes this stuff very real

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Speaker 4: to many people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, guys, I'm going to give you an example of

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Speaker 2: what I think is one of the most prominent info

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Speaker 2: hazards that has had the most effect on humanity as

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Speaker 2: it exists right now. It was something that was created

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Speaker 2: by three young guys. I honest, you remember, but September eleventh.

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Speaker 2: Theories arose on the internet like right after the attacks,

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Speaker 2: but they were mostly in dark corners of the Internet.

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Speaker 2: A few people tried to make videos back before there

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Speaker 2: was even YouTube. People were attempting to share their beliefs

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Speaker 2: on that kind of thing. People were asking questions, right,

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Speaker 2: how did those guys take over the plane so easily?

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Speaker 2: Why didn't we get better footage of the Pentagon? Why

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Speaker 2: did the towers collapse like that?

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Speaker 3: Good question?

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Speaker 2: Why was QM, the Kuwait American Corporation so heavily invested

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Speaker 2: in a few security companies that ran security for both

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Speaker 2: the World Trade Center and for Dulles Airport.

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Speaker 3: What happened to the money in the basement? How did

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Speaker 3: only one certain nationality cough cough KSA get past the

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Speaker 3: grounding of all flights right right?

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Speaker 2: And why was Marvin P. Bush, George W. Bush's younger

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Speaker 2: brother by ten years, on the board of directors of Stratsek,

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Speaker 2: which was heavily invested in by that Kuwaiti company. And

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Speaker 2: why was the Saudi embassy in the same building as

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Speaker 2: that company's operations anyway? Blah blah blah blah blah. There

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Speaker 2: were a ton of questions that existed out there. Then

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and five, this small group of people

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Speaker 2: Jason Burmas, Corey Row, and Dylan Avery, they put all

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Speaker 2: of these questions together into a documentary and released it

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Speaker 2: on the internet again early, this is two thousand and five. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and they called it Loose Change. And then that collection

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Speaker 2: of ideas, I would argue guys set off a cascade

435
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: of just individuals who were and had some of these

436
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: same like individual questions, and created basically shattered worldviews.

437
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: I think it's snowballed.

438
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, but for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people,

439
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: because millions of people watched Loose Change. I think the

440
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: original was just called loose Change.

441
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 4: Nine to eleven.

442
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: Those were all thoughts, right, they weren't. It wasn't full

443
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 2: on evidence. It was asking questions about specific things and

444
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 2: then connecting potential answers to all those questions in one

445
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: person's brain.

446
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 4: And more recently, maybe even more absurdly, things like QAnon.

447
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 4: You know that got people really really worked up when

448
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 4: they were already in a state of duress, kind of

449
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 4: closed in, shut in during COVID. All that stuff is

450
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 4: just a collection of ideas of varying degrees of you know,

451
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 4: probability that people just totally jumped on and ran with

452
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 4: and then it spread like a like a virus.

453
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 2: Well, because the ideas if any of this is true,

454
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: this like you know, this path I'm traveling down through

455
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 2: these ideas, these they are all if ens right, But

456
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: you cause, because even if you watch those things, some

457
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: of the arguments are way more convincing than others. But

458
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: if you get caught by even one of them, then potentially,

459
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 2: potentially I'm using that word carefully, the government was somehow

460
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 2: involved in nine to eleven. Potentially I can't trust anything

461
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: the government says anymore. Potentially the media companies are working for,

462
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: you know, the people that did this thing, and it

463
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 2: basically just goes down, down, down.

464
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: The US media does work for the government, though. Shout

465
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: out to Washington Post and they're humor columnist.

466
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: Well, it's true. I guess what I mean is if

467
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: you are if you hadn't had those ideas prior, right,

468
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: and you didn't have that feeling inside already. This one

469
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: documentary lasts like an hour and forty minutes or whatever,

470
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: now you're set down a completely different thought path.

471
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 3: It hooks you in because the issue is the advantage

472
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 3: for the virus is always an advantage of offense. It

473
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 3: only needs to get him once right and then danta.

474
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 3: So the thing is, these real life info hazards like

475
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 3: we just described are often considered matters of national or

476
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: international security. And I do not apologize for noting that

477
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 3: the former stalwarts of US media have been compromised by

478
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 3: factions of the US government. I also, further do not

479
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 3: apologize for saying that factions of the US government were

480
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 3: at the very least opportunist about nine to eleven. But hey,

481
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 3: maybe loose change got to me right. Sometimes it's your

482
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: own folks, I think of the like here's an example

483
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 3: that is not maybe as emotionally close for a lot

484
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: of our Western listeners, for a lot of US who

485
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 3: have never traveled to Tehran. If you want to see

486
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 3: a real example of info hazards, just think of the

487
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 3: scientists who have been murdered in recent decades entirely for

488
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 3: their knowledge of nuclear technology, entirely because of the beat

489
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: me here triforce of the shit in their heads between yeah, right,

490
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 3: between twenty ten and twenty twenty, not counting the fascinating

491
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: story the guy got gassed in two thousand and seven.

492
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 3: Between twenty ten and twenty twenty five, separate Erodian nuclear

493
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: scientists were killed, likely by foreign assets. You can guess

494
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 3: who if you wish. They weren't murdered because they were

495
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: committing criminal acts. They weren't murdered because they were Wilson

496
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: Fisk kingpins. In fact, they were all professors and physicists.

497
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: A lot of espionage that doesn't make the headlines is

498
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 3: entirely about technology.

499
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 4: Sorry.

500
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 5: Masud Ali Mohammadi January twelfth, twenty ten, a professor of

501
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 5: quantum field theory and elementary particle physics who was killed

502
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 5: by our remote control bomb.

503
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 4: Attached to a motorcycle. We should round robin these. There's

504
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 4: a whole laundry list here. Yeah.

505
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: Oh, and we've talked about all of these except for

506
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: one back in twenty fourteen. Guys, that's crazy to think about.

507
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 2: You can go back and listen to our episode early

508
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 2: early on in the feed, called are people really murdering scientists?

509
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 3: I just want to predict one good thing. I'm so

510
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: tired of us predicting terrible things.

511
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 2: Well, in this case, it was yeah, I guess we

512
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: predicted the last guy's death, but we were just going

513
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: out there going. These guys are all getting murdered. I

514
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: don't know if y'all noticed another scientist that was murdered'

515
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: His name was Majid Sherarhi Shuriari. This person was killed

516
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: on November twenty ninth, twenty ten. This was a nuclear

517
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: engineer specifically specializing in neutron transport. And Majid was killed

518
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: by a bomb attached to his car from a motorcycle.

519
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 2: So imagine or something.

520
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 4: It just slapped it on there and then scrolled off.

521
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 4: That's crazy. Yeah.

522
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: And on that same day, another professor, Ferry doing Abbasi,

523
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:31,239
Speaker 3: survived a one to one identical attack in Iran or

524
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: in Tehran. They meant to get them both to send

525
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 3: a message. Cough cough whomever cough cough. So number three

526
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 3: is darusch Razi Nyajad July twenty third, two thousand and eleven,

527
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 3: a physicist, another expert in neutron transport, fatally shot by

528
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 3: a gunman riding by on a motorcycle. And just to

529
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 3: pause here, you're gonna hear a lot of motorcycle stuff

530
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 3: when you hear about shenanigans in Tehran. Bad faith actors

531
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 3: in Tehran love motorcycles the way the Russians love third

532
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 3: story windows.

533
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 4: Well, it's also a zippy way to evade the authorities.

534
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 4: We have him here in Atlanta all the time, these

535
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 4: kind of like gangs of like dirt bike riders and

536
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 4: ATV riders that just are able to wreak havoc and

537
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 4: then duck through neighborhoods and stuff. It's a super efficient

538
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 4: way of evading capture. We've got Moustafa Ahmadi Roshan January eleventh,

539
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 4: twenty twelve, the professor researching the making of polymeric membranes

540
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 4: for gaseous diffusion, which is part of a process for

541
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 4: enriching uranium to make ding ding ding nuclear weapons, killed

542
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 4: by a bomb also attached to his car from a motorcycle.

543
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 3: It's not the door dash you want, Jesus Christ.

544
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And rounding out with another one here from November

545
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 2: twenty seventh, twenty twenty, another scientist was killed. He was

546
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: a nuclear physicist, head of Iran's nuclear program. Uh oh,

547
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: target on your head. Don't be the head of Iran's

548
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: nuclear program.

549
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 4: I guess.

550
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: He was fatally shot by a remote control machine gun. Yep, yep,

551
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: a remote control machine gun that is motion breaking. I

552
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 2: can't say his name is motion f You can look.

553
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 3: Him up, okay, yeah, Welsen Pardner our pronunciation. We are

554
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 3: not native Farsi speakers. These are just a few tragic

555
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 3: examples of people who were murdered for the thoughts inside

556
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 3: of their head, not necessarily for an incriminal action they took.

557
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 3: And while the thoughts these info hazards did not themselves,

558
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 3: by nature of their existence, harm the people who held

559
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: these thoughts, other external forces knew what these guys knew

560
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 3: or suspected these guys knew, and that triggered bloody brutal

561
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 3: action as a result. It is very dangerous to be

562
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 3: the wrong kind of professor, right, and you have to

563
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 3: be aware of folks like a lot. Again, a lot

564
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 3: of the skulldugery read about that gets the headlines or whatever.

565
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 3: The James Bond stuff is not real. What is true

566
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 3: is the immense scrutiny paid to certain types of research

567
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: all around the world. And now we know that people

568
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 3: possessing sensitive information can truly fall victim to real life

569
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 3: harm from external factors. But we want to take a

570
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 3: moment here to note that internal factors can have deleterious effects.

571
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 3: You don't need some kind of spoopy spy agency getting

572
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: mad at you or hiring a guy at a motorbike.

573
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 3: I think we're all pretty taken with the work of

574
00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 3: Fletcher Wartman, writing for Psychology Today, diving into the concept

575
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 3: of internal memes street name intrusive thoughts.

576
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. That includes stuff like an inescapable traumatic memory that

577
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 4: rears its ugly head and causes you to react emotionally

578
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 4: or even physically. Also more innocuous stuff like earworm, like

579
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 4: a song that won't get out of your head.

580
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, this idea, this idea is strange because we've set

581
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 3: it up as some sort of sci fi thing or

582
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 3: some sort of intelligence, you know, a spy came in

583
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 3: from the cold type stuff. But the memes themselves. I

584
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 3: love what you're pointing out there, and the memes themselves,

585
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 3: those recurring inescapable thoughts can be damning on their own

586
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 3: in the real world. The phrase meme. We talk about

587
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 3: this a little bit in an episode on Thought Forms

588
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 3: or Tulpa's The word meme comes from a guy named

589
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 3: Richard Dawkins, famous somewhat problematic geneticist. He wrote this book

590
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy six called The selfish gene, and he

591
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 3: took the word meme from the root of memo, memory, mimic,

592
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: and Wharpman has this great quote summing it up, which

593
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 3: I I don't know, like we're going straight to our

594
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 3: pal Wartman here, because he sums it up the best

595
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 3: I think.

596
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 4: Uh.

597
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 2: The quote is basically, a meme is an idea, the

598
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 2: kind of idea that endures over time, like a memory,

599
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 2: which can be copied or mimicked and shared like a memo.

600
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: Did you know what, I guess a picture of uh,

601
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: some kind of oligarch falling out of a window or

602
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: an Iranian scientist getting shot by somebody that's definitely not

603
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: Masad cough cough.

604
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I mean it's funny too. I mean, I'm

605
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 4: sure Dawkins had this in mind. But the concept of memetics,

606
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 4: you know, as a theory of social evolution, essentially based

607
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 4: on Darwinian principles, complex systems, you know, all of this

608
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 4: kind of stuff. I guess maybe this that whole field

609
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 4: came from Dawkins. It just seems like it already was

610
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 4: a thing, But I don't know. Everything that I'm reading

611
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 4: about it does harken back to the selfish gene and

612
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 4: Dawkins universal Darwinism.

613
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 3: I think that's where it got the Again. Language we

614
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 3: were talking about this previously. Language communication one of the

615
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 3: earliest human technologies, right, So I think maybe what we're

616
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 3: seeing there is the idea of having the right language

617
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: to hang our rough non verbal concepts upon, you know,

618
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 3: like the way you put a coat on a coat rack.

619
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 3: The concept here essentially is can an idea be dangerous?

620
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 3: We believe so every idea that you have ever had, folks,

621
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 3: human and non human alike, is simply this. It's your

622
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 3: own secret rest of arrangement, curation and analysis of fact

623
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 3: mixed with some degree of fantasy and speculation. Again, like

624
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 3: check out our episode on thought forms and tulpas, wherein

625
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 3: some of us cough cough argue that thoughts themselves can

626
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: be considered living things even though they are intangible. Like

627
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: two people in love, is that experience, that thought of

628
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 3: loving each other? Is that a living thing?

629
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 4: It's a good question. It always makes me think of

630
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 4: this fantastic sketch on mony Python's flying Circus. I'm sure

631
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 4: I've mentioned this before, where there's this like joke that

632
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 4: exists that is so funny that anyone that hears it

633
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 4: or reads it will die laughing. And in the sketch,

634
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 4: like the government, the military gets a hold of it,

635
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 4: but the generals have to have it in individual pieces

636
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 4: and no one sees it all at once, and it's

637
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 4: used like of course, you know, shenanigans and stews. It's

638
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 4: many python people accidentally read it and then drop dead

639
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 4: and all this stuff. But it's really funny and like

640
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 4: they clearly are commenting on this exact kind of thing.

641
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're getting some stuff from The Yellow King, right,

642
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 3: shout out, oh gosh, Chambers. Right, isn't Robert W.

643
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 4: Chambers King famously sort of memed in its own way

644
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 4: in Season one of True Detective.

645
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and in The Yellow King, the entire universe of that,

646
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: which is very lovecraftying is it's orbiting around. That's a

647
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 3: nice Carcosa reference, the idea that there is some sort

648
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 3: of play, and if you read the play by the

649
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 3: very act of experiencing that, you will go mad.

650
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 4: It's in a lot of modern horror too, things like

651
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 4: it follows where you know, this idea of a curse

652
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 4: that can be transmitted in that one, it is like

653
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 4: a sexually transmitted kind of curse. Maybe that's a little different.

654
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 4: But the ring, the videotape, the deadly videotape that once

655
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 4: you see it, you die in However, many days it's

656
00:40:59,000 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 4: a big thing.

657
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 3: And like Japanese juw on, I guess and doubt. Uh

658
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 3: there's another there's another article. Our pal wartman has info

659
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 3: hazard warning how internal memes infect your brain. And I

660
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 3: think this stood out to several of us because it

661
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 3: examines how and why some thoughts can become hazardous to

662
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 3: an individual human's health, even if there are no immediate

663
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: external consequences.

664
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense to me. That gets more into

665
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 2: the psychology of this whole thing. I think I was

666
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: trying to come up with a good example. I think

667
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: the way it becomes this kind of thing can become

668
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: dangerous is in interpersonal relationships, often when you've got some

669
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: and it is associated with trauma a lot of times.

670
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,439
Speaker 2: I think we were talking about earlier, where let's say

671
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: you've you're in a relationship with somebody and you've been

672
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 2: lied to before, so you expect a lie to come

673
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: from like another relationship or something. So you're almost reading

674
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 2: too much into other people's actions because you expect to you're prepared.

675
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 4: To you're prepared to be let down, and you live

676
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 4: your whole life in expectation of a thing that may

677
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 4: or may or may not ever happen.

678
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that trauma response often comes into play, I think

679
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 2: with this stuff because you almost meme. You've memified some

680
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 2: either specific action that somebody takes or some specific phrase

681
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: that somebody says. I think especially dangerous when it comes

682
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: to romantic relationships because they are there are such similarities

683
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 2: between each romantic relationship that if you've had one bad interaction,

684
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: then the next one is gonna have a lot of

685
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: the same things happening. So then your brain sees bad

686
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 2: stuff where it's actually really good stuff.

687
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 4: I don't know. That's just at least right.

688
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 3: Well, it's perfect. Two things on that. First, the old

689
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 3: idiom not necessarily an idiom, the old figure of speech.

690
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: Someone helped me with the correct for that. In English

691
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 3: conspiracy diheartradio dot com. A bad apple spoils the bunch

692
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 3: is actually true because of the things, the chemicals and

693
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 3: gases the bad apples emit, they do spoil the bunch anyway. Sorry.

694
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 3: The second thing, the more important thing for our conversation

695
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 3: this evening. We had an earlier exploration wherein we had

696
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 3: this beautiful moment that still sticks with me, which is

697
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 3: this often due to those previous experiences, the insatiable drive

698
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: to be pattern recognizers and story constructors. We talked about

699
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 3: how humans are rarely speaking with one another. They're speaking

700
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: with their ideas of a person. They're speaking with their

701
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 3: assumptions about a person's motivations, and I think that's a

702
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 3: very disturbing and powerful thing all to say, Absolutely agree

703
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 3: with this conversation. Absolutely agree with Warpman that idea of

704
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 3: a narrative. You know, humans love stories. Maybe to a fault,

705
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,959
Speaker 3: humans have always only been the stories they tell about

706
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 3: themselves of one another, which means, by this definition, a

707
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 3: communicable thought, a meme with a bad or a damaging

708
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 3: narrative can function as an info hazard. And this is

709
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 3: we could argue the formative root of a lot of

710
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 3: mental struggles.

711
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 4: Communicable thought ben like communicable disease. It's like, it's all

712
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 4: right there.

713
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you don't have to have some kind

714
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 3: of old school fairy tale possession. You don't have to

715
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 3: have intel the external world considers sensitive more dangerous. You

716
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 3: just need a thing or an idea that will not

717
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 3: leave you be and over time to our earlier points,

718
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 3: it can guide your actions, it can influence you toward

719
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 3: increasingly irrational behavior. And we've all unfortunately experienced something like this.

720
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 3: What we're saying is science shows us each and every

721
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: human mind is an ocean. It is an open ocean.

722
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 3: For anybody frightened of open oceans, be scared, because the

723
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 3: real one's in your head. And sometimes sinister things are

724
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 3: swimming in the deep.

725
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, like giant whale. Let's talk about my nightmare where

726
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 4: I'm just on the open ocean and I know there's

727
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 4: this massive creature lurking beneath the surface, even if it

728
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 4: is a gentle giant, scares the hell out of me.

729
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: You just got to learn how to ride a whale, buddy.

730
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 4: Nope, good to go, man, call me Pinocchio dog.

731
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 3: Oh well, I remember that. Hey, we just did a

732
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 3: meme that's like the whale.

733
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 4: Maybe, by the way, you didn't like the whale. The

734
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 4: whale ate him up?

735
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 3: Well, Pinocchio is kind of a terrible lesson for children,

736
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 3: but kind.

737
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 4: Of a Jonah type story, now that I think about it.

738
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 4: It never really occurred to me, but Jonah in the whale,

739
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 4: that's sort of what happens to Pinocchio is definitely some biblical.

740
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 3: Pinocchio misbehaves all the time and they get saved.

741
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 4: Just Jonah, that's the whole story. Jonah was was sort

742
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 4: of a dick and he got eaten by the whale

743
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 4: and then the whale spit him up and it made

744
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 4: him like see the air of his ways and like

745
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 4: worship God.

746
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 3: But does Pinocchio learn the errors he does ways?

747
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 4: He becomes a real boy?

748
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 3: Is that an improvement?

749
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,919
Speaker 4: It's a good question. He does become a real boy,

750
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 4: and I think he's only gifted that by the Blue

751
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 4: Fairy because he shows penitence.

752
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 3: I can't wait for anybody who has read the graphic

753
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 3: novel series Fables to get back to us on Geppetto.

754
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 3: Have you guys read Fables.

755
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 4: I'm familiar with it and I've meant to start it

756
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 4: for years and I have not gotten to it. You're

757
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 4: reminding me to put it on my list, all right?

758
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,240
Speaker 3: Hashtag spoiler three to one. Geppetto is a huge villain.

759
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 4: Oh well, he is an hoodcat, guys. Let's talk just

760
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 4: I mean real quick. Geppetto just as a character in fiction,

761
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 4: like he's I guess he's sad. He needs the sun.

762
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 4: He's said lost his smook, and maybe he's not. It

763
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 4: is weird to play god in that way, though, you know.

764
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 4: But I guess he didn't make a deal with the

765
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 4: devil to make Pinocchio come alive. Didn't the Blue Ferry

766
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 4: just kind of come along and do it for him.

767
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 4: He didn't like, do some weird incantation. He just made

768
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 4: a puppet.

769
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 3: I'm not at liberty to disclose specifics, Matt, What were

770
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 3: you going to say?

771
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 2: Oh no, I just thinking about another comic series where

772
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: you can really see everything we've been talking about in action.

773
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: It's a comic series that you can get in these

774
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: little graphic novel companion things called Department of Truth, and

775
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 2: it is just without spoiling it too much, it's based

776
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 2: on a thing called the Department of Truth, where it's

777
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 2: a basically secret government society that attempts to make sure

778
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories aren't believed by enough people, Like specifics about

779
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: conspiracy theory aren't believed by enough people because it does

780
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: become a tulpa thing that we're talking about, and it

781
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: manifests in the real world. Let's say, Gollum, Yeah, like

782
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 2: if there's a if there are enough people believing in

783
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 2: flat Earth is the example that the comic gives, then

784
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: you could theoretically travel out and meet the ice Wall

785
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: because it's now it exists because enough people believe.

786
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 3: That belief shapes reality, right, is the primary proposition. Department

787
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 3: of Truth is a banger, folks, And I think we're

788
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 3: talking about that in a group chat with one of

789
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 3: our friends earlier.

790
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, this one comes out in February.

791
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 3: One and five, buddy. So what we are also saying

792
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 3: is that, given Bostrom's earlier definitions, we could rightly deem

793
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 3: these intrusive thoughts to be internal conspiracies, to be organic

794
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 3: info hazards of their own.

795
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 5: Ah.

796
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: But then we get to the phrase huh da da

797
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 3: da organic And this leads us to a second, more

798
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 3: disturbing question, the one we asked right before things got crazy.

799
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: What will info have hazards look like in the future? Gentlemen,

800
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 3: I suggest we take a word from our sponsor and

801
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 3: I'll take a big swig at coffee, and we've returned

802
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 3: What will info hazards look in the future?

803
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 4: Guys?

804
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 3: How close will we get to the horror story of

805
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 3: the Yellow King? We're simply reading or viewing a thing

806
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 3: will drive the audience mad, possibly to their graves. This

807
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 3: is okay. This sounds silly and dumb, and laugh at

808
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 3: me if you want. But we've argued in the past

809
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 3: with great validity that new breakthroughs in technology are pushing

810
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 3: civilization closer and closer and closer to real life analogs

811
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: of things that were once considered purely supernatural. Precognition is

812
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 3: on the way, telepathy is here, doppelgangers right, Oh, cloning,

813
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 3: we're supposed to call it. It's happening. But hazards are

814
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 3: part of this trend as well. We got to draw

815
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 3: people's attention to a game called Cyberpunk, mainly because Kauugh

816
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 3: Cough one of us cough cough just lost eight plus

817
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 3: hours playing for the first time.

818
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 4: I need to get back to what's it all the

819
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 4: updates that kind of fixed the game. It is fantastic.

820
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 4: I played like maybe the first hour and a half,

821
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,240
Speaker 4: two hours of it. It is really really good.

822
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, any excuse to hang out with Keanu, I'm into it.

823
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, Johnny Silver Yeah something like that, Yeah, Keanu from

824
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 3: earlier Johnny silver Hands, Yeah, silver Hand.

825
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 4: Silver two Hands, Johnny silver Hands.

826
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 3: In the world of cyberpunk, cybernetic augmentation is widespread and normalized. Like,

827
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: imagine a world where not having some sort of electronic

828
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 3: implant in your body is as weird as not having

829
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 3: a smartphone.

830
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 4: Today, Ben, have you seen the Netflix cartoon The Cyberpunk. Yes,

831
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 4: it's fricking phenomenal. I told I reminded him myself. You

832
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 4: can go back and watch it. But it addresses the

833
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 4: politics of all of this kind of stuff from a

834
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 4: level of like a school kid and like the rich

835
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 4: kids that have the implants that he couldn't afford and

836
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 4: having to get like counterfeit implants and all. It's it

837
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 4: is epically a Kira level good anime. It's so freaking wild.

838
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 3: And I imagine here in the real world a lot

839
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 3: of us know someone who doesn't have a smartphone for

840
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 3: one reason or another. But it is eccentric, right, Like

841
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 3: you would say, most most people you guys know has

842
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 3: a smartphone, right.

843
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 4: M Yeah, it certainly the norm. But then you have

844
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 4: like folks like what's that actor's name, Oh, jeez, he's

845
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 4: got the he's kind of very intense face. He no,

846
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 4: it's he's got you know, he was in Boardwalk Empire.

847
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 4: He played the hjor Murphy. No, he played He played

848
00:51:55,440 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 4: the the prohibition agent who Frederick Now stop it. It

849
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 4: doesn't matter his name, guys. The point is he actively

850
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 4: eschewes all that kind of technology and it is a

851
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 4: personal choice for his life and his mental health that

852
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 4: he has discussed in interviews.

853
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 3: That's good. Yeah, And I know a lot of us

854
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 3: listening this evening have made a conscious decision to unplug

855
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 3: in one way or another for as you were pointing out,

856
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 3: no mental health. You know, if that is your mission,

857
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 3: please do so while you still can remember. Just like

858
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 3: Sesame credit, this stuff is opt in until it's not.

859
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 3: That's where That's where we see this cyberpunk thing, which

860
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 3: I do think is worth mentioning, even though it's quote

861
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 3: unquote just a video game. As a result, in the

862
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 3: cyberpunk world, pretty much anybody can access a second universe

863
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 3: through one way or another. Right you plug a thing in,

864
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 3: you jack in, and you can experience all sorts of

865
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 3: vicarious things. You can get any question answered so long

866
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 3: as you have the right access. But just like the

867
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 3: old gifts from supernatural entities in fairy tales, there is

868
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 3: a cost. This doesn't come for free. The access to

869
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 3: this information and this power is a double edged sword

870
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 3: as a result. In this game, people can transmit viruses

871
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 3: directly to your mind.

872
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 4: But I mean, you know, it reminds me too. I

873
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 4: think a lot of influences taken from the Catherine Bigelow

874
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 4: film Strange Days, which I believe they call it jacking

875
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 4: in or something along those lines, where you've got this

876
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 4: really intense VR playback of sex, of violence, all the thing,

877
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 4: whatever you could possibly imagine, and it becomes an obsession

878
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 4: and an addiction and it's treated like drugs, which is

879
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 4: kind of how it's treated in cyberpunk in a lot

880
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 4: of ways. I think it's a very interesting parallel.

881
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 2: What's the name of there's a phrase for the sex

882
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 2: thing in that world.

883
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 3: Of brain dance, brain dance. So what happens here is

884
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:14,399
Speaker 3: that we realize in this fictional universe, and I love

885
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 3: that you mentioned the brain dance there, Matt, in this

886
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 3: fictional universe where viruses can be transmitted directly to another

887
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 3: person's mind, you can deploy info hazards that could seriously

888
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 3: influence people and change their behavior or injure people, up

889
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 3: to and including killing them. And if we pull back

890
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 3: zoom zoom zoom, and we examine the real world, we

891
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 3: look at things like neuralink. Neuralink is proposing to give

892
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 3: you this straight mind to net access while we're removing

893
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 3: the awkward, fumbling fingers of the middlemen of the flesh.

894
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 3: Kids are not gonna Your kids might believe you, but

895
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 3: your grandkids are not gonna believe when you say it

896
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 3: used to have to type stuff with your fingers.

897
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 4: You know. And it's it's emergent technology. As some of

898
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 4: the tests have been successful, some of them have been

899
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 4: not so successful, but it's there, and it's coming to

900
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 4: your previous point, Ben, I mean, you know, we're at

901
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 4: the like very early stages of a lot of these

902
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 4: kinds of future level you know, precognition, what have you.

903
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 4: And we're all on that path and there's no putting

904
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 4: the genie back in the bottle? Right.

905
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 3: How long will it be? How long will it be,

906
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 3: folks until someone figures out, like until this stuff gets

907
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 3: normalized right and spread or deployed a mass basis? How

908
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 3: long will it be until someone discovers the best way

909
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 3: to deploy a virus through these systems? I know, I

910
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 3: use the word deployed twice, but it's only because it's

911
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 3: the best word. Further, will the creators of these systems

912
00:55:55,640 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 3: be capable of predicting and preventing vulnerabilities before they are

913
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 3: out in the world. Historically speaking, the answer is.

914
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 4: No, yes, no, no.

915
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 3: The answer is that you nail Yeah, you nailed it. Because,

916
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 3: as we were saying earlier, the the advantage is on

917
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:22,240
Speaker 3: the offense here, because you are if you're defending against

918
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 3: this kind of info hazard, then you need to plug

919
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 3: the gaps in one hundred possible places. But if you're

920
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 3: the offense, you just need to get in through one.

921
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: Oh dude, Okay, So I'm really glad you said that, Ben,

922
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 2: So I think another version of this, another thing that

923
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 2: exists right now that is on the verge of potentially

924
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 2: being even more dangerous and scary, is just the concept

925
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 2: of ocent or open source intelligence, which is that thing

926
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 2: we've discussed many a time on this show. But the

927
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 2: various apps and websites and play on the internet you

928
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 2: can go to get an individual human beings address, phone numbers,

929
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 2: email addresses, all social and dating accounts, all family members,

930
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 2: all associates like that. Basically the stuff that a landlord

931
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,919
Speaker 2: would use to assess you as a potential person who

932
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 2: is going to rent from them. Right, that stuff exists,

933
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: and I think until you have that moment of like,

934
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 2: I'm just give you my example, in my case, looking

935
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 2: up the phone number of somebody we wanted to interview

936
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 2: for a true crime show. The first time you delve

937
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 2: into that thing and you realize that all of that

938
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 2: information exists, just easily accessible to anybody else out there

939
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 2: on the planet, it becomes a scary thing for you

940
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: because not only do you think, oh wow, I could

941
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: I could track down anybody I wanted to and learn

942
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 2: anything I wanted to about them, if like in my

943
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 2: case again for an interview, but anybody could do that

944
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:59,439
Speaker 2: for me, anybody.

945
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. Not to mention that all of these data plants

946
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 4: can be you know, collated instantaneously and overlaid on living

947
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 4: human beings out in public through the use of VR

948
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 4: goggles or you know, augmented reality and stuff like that.

949
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 3: Out to the homebrew homebrew solution to metaglasses. The technology

950
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 3: is already there.

951
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 4: Well, it's it's like a heads up display, it's like

952
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 4: terminator vision.

953
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 3: But the real question is how to get the larger

954
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 3: public to accept it. We are talking to you at

955
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 3: the at the chasm of the erosion of privacy.

956
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, But the whole point of that I mean

957
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 2: saying this, guys, is that it's been memified now on

958
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 2: social media, and this is the only this is only

959
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 2: the stuff I've encountered. So tell me if I'm completely

960
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 2: off base here. It's usually a woman who appears very

961
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 2: attractive in the video she's making and joking about how

962
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 2: she already has like literally every piece of information about

963
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 2: somebody before she ever goes on a first date with.

964
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, yeah, not a but it checks out.

965
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 2: It's not a bad idea. I'm just saying, like this

966
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 2: concept of all of this put trying to put some

967
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 2: of the stuff together of it is dangerous that that

968
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: information is out there. It could be potentially dangerous for

969
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 2: you to use that information again for me one time,

970
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 2: and now I think about it all the time, I think, oh,

971
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 2: I could find out anything I wanted to on that person.

972
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 2: And it's not necessarily even about using it. It's about

973
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: knowing that it's there.

974
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 3: That's an info hazard. There we go. Now we've brought

975
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 3: it back. Yeah, this is uh, it's an easy dragon

976
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 3: to chase, but you have to remember again it's Nora Burros.

977
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 3: Every time you feel like you're chasing the tail of

978
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 3: the dragon, the head of that dragon is right on

979
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 3: your ass as well.

980
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 2: I hope it likes the taste of ass, and you

981
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 2: know it does.

982
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 3: You know it does? Classic dragon dragon. Yeah, we're read

983
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 3: up on dragon folklore. You guys catch up this day

984
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 3: one stuff. Humans are not the first of curious creatures,

985
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 3: and you all shall not be the last. Information is power,

986
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 3: our thoughts or weapons, and a great deal of conspiracy

987
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 3: is found within those simple statements. The legendary info hazards

988
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 3: do not quite yet exist, but we can argue humanity

989
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 3: is slouching ever closer to the Bethlehem of singularity. We're

990
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 3: going to see this folklore become reality. And you know,

991
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 3: I love this was pointing out earlier as student listeners.

992
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 3: You hang with us, you kick it with us. You

993
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 3: recognize our greater mission. We only hang out to explore

994
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 3: and understand the stuff they don't want you to know.

995
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 3: We are also very aware that there's a greater issue

996
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 3: at hand in this episode. Specifically, there is a valid

997
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 3: argument that without proper preparation, there is stuff you should

998
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 3: not know unless you are girded against the consequences of

999
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 3: learning these things.

1000
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 4: Gird thy loins.

1001
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 2: Conspiracy realists guild thy loins.

1002
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 3: Indeed, guild gird peer. You know what. There your Australia.

1003
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 3: You run it how you see fit. Just don't hurt anybody.

1004
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 3: Here endeth the sermon, and here begins your journey. We

1005
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 3: cannot wait to hear from you in our emails. We've

1006
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 3: been writing back to a lot of people in our

1007
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 3: phone calls. We also try to be easy to find online,

1008
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 3: but not in a creepy way. Please don't creep on us.

1009
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 3: We can't stop you, but we hope you will do

1010
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 3: the right thing.

1011
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 4: It's you can do the right thing by reaching out

1012
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 4: to us at the handle conspiracy Stuff, where we exist

1013
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 4: on Facebook with our Facebook group Here's where it gets crazy,

1014
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,439
Speaker 4: join the Shenanigans and the memory of plenty that goes

1015
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 4: on there in that community. You can also find us

1016
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 4: at conspiracy Stuff on YouTube, as well as x fka, Twitter,

1017
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 4: on Instagram and TikTok. However, we're conspiracy Stuff.

1018
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 2: Show hey guys. Before we tell everyone how to write

1019
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 2: to us, should we be worried about this? One emailer

1020
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 2: that sends us like free in fight emails a day.

1021
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 2: If there's a couple, dude, you know, if you are

1022
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 2: going to send us an email, please just I don't know,

1023
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 2: be deliberate with it. Don't automate somesystem to send us

1024
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 2: twenty five emails today.

1025
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 3: All right, it's interesting.

1026
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't like it in me my old inbox.

1027
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,440
Speaker 2: So hey, put maybe twenty five of them together and

1028
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 2: send one email.

1029
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 4: That would be awesome.

1030
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 2: Okay, Hey, if you want to call us, do call

1031
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 2: the number one eight three three std WYTK. When you

1032
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 2: call in, give yourself a cool nickname and let us

1033
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 2: know if we can use your name and message on

1034
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 2: the air. If you got more to say, they can

1035
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 2: fit in a three minute voicemail. Why not instead send

1036
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 2: us a good old fashioned email.

1037
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

1038
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet unafree. Sometimes the void

1039
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 3: writes back. Now it sounds like we might not be

1040
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 3: a United Frontier, but I believe that all are welcome.

1041
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 3: To quote the guy from Poltergeist, so walk out with

1042
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 3: us here in the dark. We'll see you there. Conspiracy

1043
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 3: heart radio dot.

1044
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 2: Com stuff they don't want you to Know is a

1045
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

1046
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1047
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 2: favorite shows.