WEBVTT - W. David Marx 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:12.400 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:16.360 My guest today is David Marks, author of the new 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:20.080 book Status and Culture. There's a subtitle which really kind 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:27.080 of explains it how our desire for social rank creates taste, identity, art, fashion, 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:32.040 and constant change. But David explained the theory a little 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:36.320 bit more deeply. All right, hey, Bob, it's an honor 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.320 to be here. I happy to explain this. So status, 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.600 first of all, I think this word is used in 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:44.280 many different ways, and I want to be really clear 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.760 about what I mean. So status is often thought to 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.159 be one upsmanship, luxury goods, trying to be better than 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.640 your peers, and especially among you know, middle class people. 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.480 If everyone owns a Toyota camera, buying in Mercedes Bens, 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:00.800 that's all about status. What I am talking about is 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.960 status in a broader sense of every single person is 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.520 in a group. All those groups have some sort of hierarchy. 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.039 There's also a hierarchy of hierarchies in society, and so 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.319 different groups kind of battle it out, and your position 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.600 in that hierarchy and your group's position determine quite a 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.000 bit about your identity and the taste that you have 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.119 and the preferences that you have. And so status can 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.080 be everything from the desire for luxury goods to being 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.400 marginalized and being outside of the status hierarchy and creating 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:33.759 your own culture on the outside of it. It can 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:38.959 be everything from uh, minorities being oppressed and um, you know, 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.800 people fighting for dignity. So status is a much broader 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.319 thing than simply just trying to outdo each other. But 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.200 what I was looking at I was interested in how 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.320 culture works. I think culture is often seen as this chaotic, 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:54.920 irrational part of of our lives. And the more I 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.440 looked at it, I did kind of see these patterns 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.280 over time of how fashion changes, um spe s, if 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:04.240 you look at music, how musical changes over time, how 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.960 sounds and different genres rise and fall. And if you 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:11.239 look at this, there are these laws almost like scientific laws, 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.440 almost like gravity. And the more I looked at that, 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:15.920 the more I found that status was the best way 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.880 to explain those And so in writing a book about culture, 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.120 you had to, you know, also look at how status 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.160 works at a micro level to explain the macro patterns 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.200 of culture. So happy to talk more about the specifics 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.200 of that, but that's more or less how status and 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:36.280 culture intertwined. Okay, can one say that in society at large, 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:40.240 both in a specific country and in the world, that 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:46.200 there is one status hierarchy, because you talk about many hierarchies, 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.600 and certainly we live in a world that is all wired, 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.440 but there are many little cultures. But is there one 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:57.800 overwhelming status hierarchy in the world today? No, And they're 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:03.440 also are not really concrete numbers on your status position. 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.040 It's all vague, it's all perceived. Um. People have a 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.400 general sense of the status that they have based on 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:14.399 their treatment. And while there is not one single hierarchy, 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:18.320 I do believe people are very concerned about the groups 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.240 they associate with and how those groups are treated. And 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.520 so if you think about sub cultures, subcultures seem like 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:28.040 a great way to escape the main hierarchy of society 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.480 that cares much more about money than probably anything else. 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.320 And so you see, Okay, you can kind of go 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.800 to this other group and get all this esteem from 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.560 people like you who are interested in weird things. But 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.119 many of those groups still care a lot about how 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.680 their groups are treated and and do fight for more 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.560 status for the things they are interested in. So if 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.560 you're an in cell, for example, and you're on the 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.800 internet talking with other in cells, the in cells are 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.240 not happy being in cells. They're quite angry about it, 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.480 and they they want their position to rise in society. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.400 And so UM it is. It's very abstract and it's 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.040 very vague, but I do believe people are aware of 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:10.839 both their position in their certain group, and that could 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.440 be a school community, but also the group they associate 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.680 most with, whether that is a subculture or a class 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.839 or a specific ethnic group, how that how that group 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.599 is treated in society. And so um we live in 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.400 a world in which there are probably more status groups 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:32.880 than ever before. But the idea that everybody has stopped 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:36.120 jocking for position and is happy to be in their 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.560 own small group, I think that's a little premature. Let's 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:45.200 just talk about one concept, which um goes across all 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:51.640 income levels, which is wealth breakdown, status relative to wealth 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.240 and society today. So if you go back to a 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:59.359 feudal era in in the feudal times, you have a 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.279 status high key that's not based on wealth, and you 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.480 have a king at the top, and you have aristocrats. 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.080 And the reason that system fell apart is because the 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.479 bourgeoisie are making so much money, but they don't have 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:11.520 the titles, so they start buying the titles, and then 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:13.039 the whole thing gets messed up, and then you have 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.360 the French Revolution, and since that time, in a capitalist world, 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:23.800 money is the main criteria in which we provide status. 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:27.520 So somebody can be No. One, make a lot of 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:29.760 money and then move up the status rankings really quickly. 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.400 Now there's still a battle between new money and old money, 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.160 often where old money knows how to be rich in 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.680 the right way and they try to keep new money out. 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.680 But over time that wealth is quite powerful. And money 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:46.920 is not only something valuable in its own right. Because 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.560 we live in a capitalist society, we we just value 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:54.000 wealth itself. But it's a sign of intelligence, it's a 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.640 sign of skill. It also is a way to purchase 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:02.400 the benefits that you get from esteem otherwise, So if 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.120 you're a very well respected person, maybe people treat you 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.680 well and you get access to all these va ap 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:11.760 events or places. But if you are rich, you can 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.640 just buy your way into them. And so money is 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:19.240 both a sign of status and the way we determine status, 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:21.960 but it's also a way to purchase status. If if 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.400 you're not respected, and so it's quite difficult to get 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.040 around status as sorry, it's it's quite difficult to get 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.440 around wealth as being the main determinant of status today. 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:35.440 And so you know, if you look at all the 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.640 different classes, obviously you know in the in the way 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.520 I think about it is you've got new money, and 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.640 you have old money, and you have the professional classes 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:47.200 which have a bit of money but really want to 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:54.120 make the status competition all about education and culture and 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.080 knowledge and things like that. UM. And then people who 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:01.560 were born without capital and and UM want to move 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.120 up tend to really focus on economic capital and be 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.880 seduced by the power of wealth because that that's their 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.960 easiest ticket up. So UM, as much as status is 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.280 a separate concept from wealth, we definitely live in a 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:18.880 society which wealth is the main determinant. Okay, So in 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.400 your book, it's really sort of three groups. You have 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.480 the economic outcasts, the people with nose status who you 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.800 referenced in this paradigm are looking for wealth. At the top, 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.600 you have those with wealth new money, old money. Let's 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.760 park that for a second. But in the middle, which 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:40.280 you reference just now, you have a professional class and 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.960 you have some people who are not professionals. But you 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:49.280 have people who want to ascend to the upper class, 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.480 the rich class, and you point out in your book 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.800 in many ways that if you pretend or you're too 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:02.360 much of a sick ethant, it'll work against that. So 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:06.440 there is a principle of detachment, which is that everyone 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.760 is signaling for status because you can't get status without 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:12.560 getting it from other people, and you need to show 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.840 that you have the reason forgetting that status. If you 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.160 are already wealthy and famous, you have a reputation and 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.440 you don't have to signal because people just know that 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.840 you're important and treat you that way. So the act 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.720 of signaling itself, when it's too obvious, is a low 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.280 status act. So people need to be detached from the 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:35.240 signaling process and be very subtle about it. And New 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:39.360 money gets this wrong, which is that they have, you know, 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:41.480 let's say a normal car. They go out and buy 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:46.120 a Rolls Royce and it's so obvious that they're trying 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.520 to signal that those signals fail and they just look 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.880 like they must not have status because they're trying so 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:54.760 hard to have it. So what is difficult about this 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.160 whole thing is that status in general is a taboo. 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.640 Talking about it is a taboo, and so you have 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:01.719 to try right to get it without showing that you're 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.520 trying to get it. Um. That being said, if you 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:09.040 go onto Instagram and you look today at especially you know, 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:13.199 people under let's say thirty, that taboo seems to be disappearing. 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.800 There seems to be quite a lot of kids, Um, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.400 you know, sixteen year old kids who have made a 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:22.559 fortune drop shipping or some kind of obscure gray market activity, 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.839 and they're sitting on top of four binses and and 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.079 talking about, you know, providing for their parents and all 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.960 sorts of things. Um, that to me feels a bit uncouth. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.800 But that that may be changing. But traditionally, you know, 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:37.199 and you know, in previous centuries, the idea was that 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.840 you're you're not supposed to show off too much or 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.920 it's too obvious that you don't have status to start with. Okay, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.719 let's just focus on social media for a second. If 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.520 I'm on social media and I have a great number 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.839 of followers, does that instantly give me status or does 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.280 the same rule apply that it looks like I'm trying 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:05.000 to get followers and therefore people rebel against that. So 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:09.000 before I talked about status being quite vague and these 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.360 tears that we're in are undefined and when one of 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.280 the big developments of the Internet has been the ability 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:19.479 to quantify your status position because on Twitter or Instagram 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:23.280 or these platforms, you have a follower account, and yes, 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.400 the numbers can be faked, but to get up into 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:27.679 a hundred thousand or these big numbers, you need to be, 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.880 you know, quite have a quite uh big following, in 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:36.840 big presence, and be well known. And I don't think 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.839 the numbers themselves signal that you're trying too hard. I 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.840 think it's in the content or not. But you know, 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.520 Instagram in particular, I remember being on it, let's say 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.280 a decade ago, and it did seem to be mostly 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:52.560 creative class people showing abstract photos. It was often called 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.079 the happiest place on the Internet because it did seem 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.880 to be not about status signaling at all. And then 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:02.120 the next wave of people using it were more or 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.679 less strivers who were trying to become influencers on their 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:10.760 own and make influence their entire profession. And with that 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.640 you started getting a real fetishization of that follower account. 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.360 Because the more followers you have, you can then take 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.959 that to a brand and turn that into actual payments 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.480 for posts, So that status is directly related to some 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:28.480 sort of economic outcome. So UM brands obviously don't look 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:32.480 at those follower accounts and I think it's anything bad. 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:37.760 And I don't think the culture of those strivers and 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.040 the people who follow them, I don't think they necessarily 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.400 see trying to get a lot of followers is bad. 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.520 But it may be surprising to older people who grew 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.760 up in a more detached world to see that and think, um, oh, 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:52.719 is this is this okay? Now? Is it okay to 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.360 so openly try to win followers and fame without necessarily 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.200 doing it because you have talent, but just because you're 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.840 really good at the influence game itself. Let's stay on 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.559 the same point, but go a little bit deeper. If 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.280 you speak to boomers and you get into social media, 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:14.559 there are many people who are unfamiliar with the platforms, 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:21.599 but certainly unfamiliar with those who are stars on the platform. 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.480 So is this just a result of internet culture We're 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:29.400 going to go this far or generational change, or are 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.400 we going to have parallel status situations where the young 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:35.600 people say, I don't care what the parents do. This 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.920 is what we do. And the parents say, well, you know, 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.200 we grew up in a different era prior to the 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:45.240 Internet was more homogeneous. Yeah, it's it's difficult, and I 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.240 think there is a real split at the moment they 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.960 think about TikTok massively popular with teenagers. There are stars 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.880 on TikTok that anyone who is not a teenager has 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.400 never heard of. At the same time, those teenagers all 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.320 know Brad Pitt and they all know Lady Gaga, and 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.800 so there's kind of a two tier system in which 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:04.800 there are stars that everybody knows and there's ones that 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.080 are only on these platforms. And what I think about, 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.200 let's say culture in the sixties or seventies, you may 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.400 have someone who was subcultural. So you have the sex 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.520 pistols who start out very subcultural, but they take over 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:21.360 the music charts quite quickly, or you know, college rock 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.360 in the eighties going into alternative in the nineties, they 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:28.720 make that leap, and and so far these stars on 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.200 TikTok and Instagram have not quite made the leap yet. 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.520 And it's interesting that there's that difference. Now. I think 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:34.960 it will happen. I think there will be more of 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.719 a merger. And at the met Gala, you know, a 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:39.600 couple of these TikTok stars are starting to show up, 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:41.439 but they may be the people with the least amount 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:43.720 of status at the met Gala, so it's not necessarily 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.640 like they go on the same footing as a quote 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:53.720 unquote real celebrity. But if teenagers are all looking at Instagram, 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.160 they're all looking at TikTok, and TikTok becomes the dominant 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.679 media that they're consuming, and the stars that own that 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:05.960 are these specific people. And then especially if the uh 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.600 real celebrities are more well known celebrities start going on 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:13.400 to TikTok and start collaborating with these people. Um, it's 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.839 quite possible to be a crossover, but you are right 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:17.720 at the moment, there does seem to be a wall 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:23.400 between these two worlds. And because you know, it depends 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:28.600 on whether Hollywood movies and um big studio music and 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.600 television continue to be as important as they are as 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:37.359 the centralizing media and society that those former celebrities celebrities 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.320 keep their position. If everything switches to TikTok, that's quite 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.720 likely that we'll just live in a world where TikTok 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:48.240 celebrities are the the most famous celebrities. But I think 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.080 there is a difference in the sense that to be 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:56.360 a Hollywood star, to be a big music star, there 0:14:56.360 --> 0:15:00.080 has to be some general sense of talents at a 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.800 specific thing. You have to be an actor who can 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.880 carry a movie. You have to be able to make 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.440 a song that you know is on top forty radio. 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.680 Maybe the quality that's not always the best, but there's 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.160 some bar that have to pass. I do think many 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.040 of the stars on these social media platforms are really 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:21.720 good at hacking into what makes a social media video 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.360 go viral and quite good at it, and those skills 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.640 don't necessarily transfer out, and so that's one of the 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.200 other barriers we're seeing why people can't make the switch. 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.040 Because you can get very very good at doing a 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.680 silly video with a silly face and be the number 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:36.360 one star on TikTok for the year, but it doesn't 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.200 mean that you can be a movie a movie star, 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.560 or a music star. Let's go back to the met Gala. 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:48.280 Certainly in the nineties, I was an award shows like 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:53.280 the MTV Video Music Awards and all the peripheral people. 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.840 They were lapping it up. Think you know, whether they 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.600 be somebody on an MTV show for some other reason, 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.680 they were there. Now, if someone's at the MET gala, 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.440 they could just be kissing as saying I'm thrilled to 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:11.120 be here. But if they were for whatever reason there, 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:15.840 how would you tell them to act to increase their status? 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:19.920 You're saying one of these TikTok stars or one of 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:25.080 the peripheral celebrities. I don't I mean, this is probably 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.440 my lack of cultural capital, but I don't know how 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.840 you're supposed to act at the MET gala. And um, 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.600 you know what I would say is they there does 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.040 need to be a humility and there does need to 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.480 be uh somewhat of an invitation of trying to get 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.200 main celebrities into your world. It can't just be that 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:48.920 you go into mainstream celebrity world, because you're not going 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.160 to make that leap. They've got to come to you 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.720 and to try to get your influence to reach gen 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.160 z or you know, whatever it is their marketing goal. 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.160 They're going to come to you and start working with you, 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:02.480 and that's what's gonna bring you up. It's not going 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:06.280 to be that you were nice two major celebrities, and 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.560 this isn't a niceness game as you as you may know. 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.640 So I think the hope would be more or less 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.280 that you can just prove that the future of social 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:20.320 media or the future of media itself is on these platforms, 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:22.879 and if the major celebrities don't cross over to you, 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:24.800 then they're going to be the ones who are irrelevant 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:30.639 in five years. Okay, but let me just you know, extrapolate. Certainly, 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.080 when we lived in the last century without the Internet 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:38.959 exploding everything into a million stars, there were people just 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.760 had charisma in were cool and they were stand offish 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:47.840 and that drew people to them. Couldn't a social media 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:53.640 star when intersecting with mainstream do the same thing like, well, 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.280 I'm here reluctantly, I'm just checking out. I don't care 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:00.400 about you, my dad work, as opposed to I mean, 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.560 you talk about the people were saying I made some money, 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.679 I got a Mercedes, I got this. Okay, this is 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:12.480 kind of the This isn't a perfect example, but uh, 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:17.800 Bezos's ex wife wants no publicity and is giving away 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:22.000 all the money and that's giving her an amazing Mackenzie 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:27.040 Beazos has an amazing status now whereas before, uh, she 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:31.200 did not have this. That's right. And so go back 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.040 to this idea of cool in the twentieth century, and 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:38.240 cool was a form of detachment. It was a quiet rebellion, 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.160 and that was what was so powerful about that emotion 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:49.720 is the seeming detachment from social norms. And you know, 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:51.680 if everyone else is after status, I don't care and 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.159 I'm just gonna take a step back. And that really, 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.000 that ethos really defined everything up until probably the end 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.640 of the twentieth century with in gen X most definitely 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:03.480 kind of grew up with that idea of cool as well. 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:07.200 I think millennials, uh, it may have been a specific 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.800 rebellion against the aesthetic because it wasn't theirs. And if 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.520 they thought, you know, alternative music is trying so hard 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:19.159 to be uncool. You know, the every singer and an 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.560 alternative band is trying to pretend like they've never thought 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:25.000 about singing before. Why can't we go back to having 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:26.639 songs that are fun? Why can't we go back to 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.080 singers that are singers? And you get a sense that 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.679 millennials were fighting that version of cool. And then with 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:37.800 the rise of online video, you have people talking to 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:41.359 cameras directly being you know, emoting directly in front of 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:47.000 the camera, showing to complete strangers their emotional breakdowns and 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.120 crying and all of these things that are incredibly uncool, 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.640 and that is what became really appealing is the idea 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.639 of sharing these deep emotions with people in a way that, again, 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.400 I think for for previous generations, would be quite surprising. 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.640 So there has been a move away from this detachment 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.800 on an aesthetic level, I think with millennials and now 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:12.120 with gen z which it's just like show your success, 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.520 don't be shy about it. When you go back to 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:19.560 talking about Mackenzie Scott, they're at the same time is 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:23.119 this professional class who have become billionaires from tech, and 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.440 they're taking a lot of their professional class, upper middle 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:27.879 class values with them. So they're not going to brag. 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:29.880 They're going to give their money to sharity. There's there's 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.600 been a lot of articles recently about how old money 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:34.639 families are starting to give a lot of their money away. 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.240 So there you're getting this kind of bifurcation of people 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.320 who are previously wealthy or are suspicious of wealth itself. 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:43.600 As soon as they get billions, they're going to give 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:45.560 them away and that's going to be their path to 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.520 some higher form of status. But then young people, Um, 0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:52.760 you don't want to stereotype so many young people, but 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:54.840 the ones who are really rising up on these platforms 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:58.560 seem to be unabashed le materialist, and that is the 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:03.080 way they're showing to everybody their success. And honestly, I 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.440 don't know how else you would do it. These days, 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.240 everything is about money, and if you can show that 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.000 you have luxury cars, that is an easy way to 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:16.679 show that you're a success at gaming these platforms too. Uh, 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.840 you know, turn it into a business, which is not 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:24.199 not always obvious that you can do. Okay, let's just 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.600 go segue back to the old money new money. I 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:32.399 grew up in Connecticut in the last century, and you 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.639 knew who you know. You describe it very well in 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:38.879 the book. You know, they're wearing topsiders, which your canvas shoes, 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.919 leather shoes. Actually they're wearing chinos. They're driving around in 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:48.000 an old Ford country squire. Okay, they inherited the money 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.479 in most cases. Also, there were no billionaires. There was 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:57.359 nobody that wealthy in America and Europe. Different. So now 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:01.119 as a result of tech and lowering of taxes. We 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:05.840 have these people who literally are billionaires have more money 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:10.720 than the old money people ever had, even in real dollars. 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:17.960 So is old money a lost paradigm? Does anybody even 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.520 care about old money anymore other than the people who 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:25.800 are old money. It's quite interesting because my argument is 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:30.000 that true old money aesthetics of modesty and detachment and 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:34.040 all the things we associate with that preppy style of 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:40.080 New England, those that ethos is most definitely dead. And 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.960 if you're a young person trying to think about moving 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:46.240 up in the world, you don't think about that group 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:49.600 as your model that I want to dress preppy and 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:53.520 my dream is to have a trust fund that that is, 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.560 I think in in something that is dead. At the 0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:59.680 same time, on TikTok, there is a hashtag that's quite 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:04.160 popular that is hashtag old money, and it's a misunderstanding 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.879 of old money, believing that old money is just even 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.760 more ostentatious the new money. They have bigger boats and 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:14.920 bigger houses, and dress even and even more crisp clothing, 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:18.159 without knowing that true old money in New England used to, 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:22.440 you know, intentionally wear dirty, choose to show off, how 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:26.399 how much they didn't care about dressing well. So I 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.240 think that the old true old money is dead. I 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.400 don't know why anyone would aspire towards it. I think 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:36.760 some of those principles exist within the men's fashion world, 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:40.200 in particular, that you know, preppy style is still very popular, 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.200 but it doesn't quite have the connotations that used to. 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:47.080 And then with you know, any kind of old money 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.680 fetishism that happens at the moment is just the complete 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:53.280 misunderstanding of it. It's quite possible that we went through 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.040 a boom where the billionaires made their fortunes just like 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.680 the robber barons made their fortunes, and then their kids 0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:01.760 and their grandkids settle into a more old money pattern. 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:06.399 The economy is so dynamic, though, and you believe it 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:09.440 will continue to be that way that globally, I don't 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:14.560 think that old money will ever be something that has 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.320 the same position. Because the other thing I think about 0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:19.760 a lot is and that we don't necessarily think about 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:23.000 in the US that much. But the Internet is globalizing 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:26.040 the world, and the people who are participating in the 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:30.560 Internet outside of the United States tend to mostly be 0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:34.600 the extreme new vote reach of all these places that 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.320 we don't think about. So, you know, the all these 0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:41.679 oil rich nations, or you know people who just have 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:44.959 some sort of construction fortune and Serbia or whatever. So 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:47.919 these people are sending a lot of the paradigms for 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:52.680 taste and style in their particular countries, which everyone is imitating. 0:24:52.720 --> 0:24:54.840 As and as the Internet gets more and more global, 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:58.679 this new vote reache aesthetic will will you know, spread 0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:02.480 throughout the the world and become kind of the baseline 0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:06.200 grammar of how people behave on these social media platforms. 0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:10.120 So that that's even further punishing against kind of American 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:12.960 old money detachment. The Internet is just not a good 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:16.520 place for modesty and detachment to start with. So as 0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:18.680 much as an old money could develop as an economic 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.480 class again if the economy settles down and you have 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:25.720 less boom, uh, it's it was very much of a 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:30.320 specific time and place where you know, people knew their 0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:34.440 neighbors and uh, you know, there was four channels on television, 0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:38.280 one of which was PBS, and that professional class really 0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:43.400 aspired towards going to an ivy League university, meeting all 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:46.080 the old money people, stealing their style and aesthetic, and 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:48.159 then going back and trying to do lots of things 0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:50.480 to impress them, uh, taste wise, for the rest of 0:25:50.480 --> 0:26:00.679 their life, and that that era is probably over. Okay, 0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:05.760 you talked about the professional class. These are the wealthy, 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:08.240 and I remember a story in the New York Times 0:26:08.240 --> 0:26:13.159 about five years ago about concierge doctors and the people 0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:17.400 who thought that they were the movers and shakers upper class, 0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:23.199 the college professors, the lawyers, etcetera. They couldn't afford the 0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:27.720 conciergs doctors in New York. Okay, so what about all 0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:31.840 these people who believe, well, I went to a good college. 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:35.840 I you know, I my kids go to good schools. 0:26:36.640 --> 0:26:39.119 Are they just thinking, well, I'm too low on the 0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:43.920 status ladder and I have to move up? Or am 0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:48.879 I satisfied where I am? What goes on there? What 0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:53.520 social psychology experiments have found is there's no level of 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:56.720 status that is enough. The more you move up, the 0:26:56.720 --> 0:26:59.560 more you want, and even the people at the very 0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:04.320 top keep trying to push forward. So based on that, 0:27:05.920 --> 0:27:08.920 if you're very successful and you have all the material 0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:12.560 comfort that you need, but then you realize there's a 0:27:12.600 --> 0:27:15.960 new symbol of status that you don't have and you 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:20.080 can't get access to. I believe that that that group 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:24.320 will be disappointed or try to find new ways to 0:27:24.359 --> 0:27:28.160 move up and to afford those things. Um it has 0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:32.240 the amount, the sheer amount of money has distorted everything. 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:37.359 And the degree to which just being a normal, successful 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:39.240 professional person in New York and not being able to 0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:43.520 afford to buy an apartment or being priced out, um 0:27:43.600 --> 0:27:46.920 that that's also a sign of this. The other part 0:27:46.960 --> 0:27:51.320 of it is the degree to which the super duper rich, 0:27:51.960 --> 0:27:55.000 let's say, if you know, used to be first class, 0:27:55.040 --> 0:27:58.840 so you would think about first class, business class economy 0:27:59.040 --> 0:28:03.160 as your way of thinking about status groupings. Now there's 0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:08.040 private jets, or now there's the private terminal l a airport, 0:28:09.240 --> 0:28:13.760 and so things like having to walk to a gate, 0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:17.280 which used to be something everyone had to do. Maybe 0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:18.680 you got to go to the lounge, but you had 0:28:18.720 --> 0:28:21.639 to walk to your gate through the airport. Now that 0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:26.639 is a middle status activity. So this money has taken 0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:29.760 all these things that used to be normal and made 0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:35.600 people feel like their inferior. And it's probably not a 0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:38.000 good thing that's happened to the United States in particular. 0:28:38.560 --> 0:28:42.520 And I forgot who it was, but um, I believe 0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:44.760 it is maybe one of the Granddaughters of Disney saying, 0:28:44.800 --> 0:28:48.680 you know, the main the thing I realize, the big 0:28:48.720 --> 0:28:51.480 difference between being sort of rich and being ultra rich 0:28:51.560 --> 0:28:53.720 is private jets. Once you start taking private jets, you 0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:58.000 can't go back. And so there has been with this 0:28:58.080 --> 0:29:02.120 whole new group of status symbols that have made doctors 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:04.480 and lawyers and professions that used to be seemed like 0:29:04.520 --> 0:29:09.000 the top of society, um, really take a step down relatively. 0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:14.160 And I don't think. I don't think that group looks 0:29:14.160 --> 0:29:16.200 at their material comforts and says, oh, we're good. I 0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:19.880 think they do resent it to a certain degree. Or um, 0:29:19.920 --> 0:29:23.440 I feel like they've got to work harder. Now, Okay, 0:29:23.720 --> 0:29:27.240 let's talk about artists. From reading the book, it seems 0:29:27.600 --> 0:29:31.760 artists exists outside the sphere. Let's talk pre Internet, because 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:35.080 another focus your book is post Internet. Is they exist 0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:41.400 outside the sphere, and then the professional intellectual classes to 0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:47.480 be hip become fans of those artists, and then ultimately 0:29:47.520 --> 0:29:50.920 the product is dumbed down for the public and consumed 0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:56.160 at mass. Go deeper what's going on there? Yes, So 0:29:57.200 --> 0:30:00.360 to understand how artists works, you have to understand the 0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:02.760 principle of convention, and we use the word convention all 0:30:02.800 --> 0:30:06.760 the time, and it has a very specific technical meaning 0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:11.240 within sociology and linguistics. But conventions are where people have 0:30:11.840 --> 0:30:15.680 a mutual expectation of certain behavior. And so, you know, 0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:17.840 the example using the book is black tie. If you 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:21.480 get a invitation something that says formal, you know, you 0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:23.840 have to wear black tie. That is expected to view. 0:30:23.880 --> 0:30:26.280 And if you show up in black tie, people are happy. 0:30:26.520 --> 0:30:28.120 If you don't show up in black tie, you show 0:30:28.200 --> 0:30:31.720 up in shorts, people will be angry. And so these 0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:35.200 conventions form and they're kind of the backbone of culture. 0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:38.520 The the atomic form of culture is these conventions. And 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:41.000 and art itself is full of conventions. If you think 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:43.360 about what makes a hip hop song different than a 0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:46.480 than a rock song, it is you know, the use 0:30:46.480 --> 0:30:49.560 of beats or the use of instrumentation. These are all conventional. 0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:55.360 So what artists do is very intentionally break these conventions 0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:59.640 in the kind of aesthetic world. So if art is 0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:03.920 figure wative in the sense that um, every painting is 0:31:03.920 --> 0:31:07.840 showing real people, then a true artist of the nineteenth 0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:10.400 century says, I'm going to make art that is non figurative. 0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:13.840 That that um, I guess that would be the twentieth century. 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:17.720 But I'm going to do something else. I'm gonna break 0:31:17.720 --> 0:31:22.040 that convention, and over time those inventions then become conventional, 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:25.400 and then other people follow those patterns, and audiences themselves 0:31:25.400 --> 0:31:29.000 start to understand those conventions, and it changes and expands 0:31:29.080 --> 0:31:31.680 the way they can perceive art and the world. So 0:31:32.080 --> 0:31:36.600 artists have played a giant role in our perception and 0:31:36.720 --> 0:31:39.040 expanding it over time and the things we consider to 0:31:39.080 --> 0:31:41.440 be art to start with. So that if you think 0:31:41.480 --> 0:31:46.000 about that process, it's obvious that an artist, by breaking 0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:48.840 convention is going to make people angry, and any art 0:31:48.880 --> 0:31:51.920 that shows up and follows convention, it doesn't make people angry. 0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:55.240 We can be relatively suspicious of that. Is it true art? 0:31:55.320 --> 0:31:57.680 But also is it going to do anything for us? 0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:01.760 If if we like, you know, Trapp music, and we 0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:03.280 like that beat and an artist comes out with the 0:32:03.280 --> 0:32:07.600 exact same trap beat, then it doesn't expand the genre 0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:09.960 at all, It doesn't expand our understanding at all, and 0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:13.200 it's it just kind of tickles the things already in 0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:17.000 our brain. And So what I what I was thinking 0:32:17.040 --> 0:32:20.640 about with status, because I think it's been misunderstood a 0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:22.680 little bit in this sense. I don't think artists create 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:25.480 art in order to get socioeconomic status. Maybe some of 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:27.800 them do, and definitely, you know pop musicians, many of 0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:30.920 them do. But you can create art for the purest reason. 0:32:30.960 --> 0:32:34.720 You can believe simply that painting is wrong and the 0:32:34.760 --> 0:32:36.760 way it is now, and you need to make different 0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:40.400 kinds of painting. But the process in which those inventions 0:32:40.440 --> 0:32:43.320 become conventional has a lot to do with status, which 0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:46.120 is that first and foremost you have to get status 0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:49.800 from the art world itself for people to say this 0:32:49.920 --> 0:32:53.560 invention is not just some crazy idio idiosyncrency, it is 0:32:53.600 --> 0:32:56.400 actually very important and we should treat it as some 0:32:56.440 --> 0:32:59.600 sort of genius move. And once that happens in this person, 0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:03.240 this person, even as an artist, there are becomes uh 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:05.360 perceived in a different way. People can have a sthetic 0:33:05.400 --> 0:33:08.560 experiences with it, and as that happens, then more and 0:33:08.600 --> 0:33:11.080 more people copy it, and then it kind of diffuses 0:33:11.120 --> 0:33:15.560 through society from there. So that is the classic model 0:33:15.600 --> 0:33:18.800 of avant garde art until let's say, maybe the seventies 0:33:18.880 --> 0:33:21.880 or eighties, and it probably does not describe a lot 0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:23.600 of what's going on now. And I think that's maybe 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:26.200 one of art disappointments with art these days is that 0:33:26.280 --> 0:33:29.120 we don't feel like it's pushing our brains. If you 0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:32.400 see a Jeff Khon's sculpture and it's and the whole 0:33:32.400 --> 0:33:35.440 point of it is, you're going to fuse art and 0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:37.800 commerce together so much that you can't tell which is which. 0:33:38.000 --> 0:33:40.520 We already know that art and commerce are fused. There's 0:33:40.560 --> 0:33:43.040 nothing that we're learning from that in a way where 0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:47.000 if you take a John Cage uh performance and it 0:33:47.080 --> 0:33:50.320 was all created through random chance, that does change the 0:33:50.320 --> 0:33:52.280 way we think about performance in the sense of until 0:33:52.360 --> 0:33:55.400 that point, all music was created by the hand of 0:33:55.480 --> 0:34:01.880 somebody intentionally making it. And so these ideas push forward 0:34:02.120 --> 0:34:05.400 our perception of the world. And if people stopped doing that, 0:34:05.480 --> 0:34:08.479 then things get quite boring pretty quickly. Okay, let's stay 0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:12.120 with visual hard for a second. You say, in order 0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:18.120 to gain newfound status, it has to solve a problem. 0:34:18.280 --> 0:34:21.839 Expand on that, and why is that the case? So 0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:25.040 it has to solve a problem in the art world 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:33.440 itself in the sense that, um, if you're if your 0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:39.239 procasso and art is two dimensional, and you start understanding 0:34:39.400 --> 0:34:43.640 that the world physically is more complicated, and you start 0:34:43.680 --> 0:34:46.440 thinking about how could you paint in three three dimensions, 0:34:46.480 --> 0:34:49.480 not just two, and everybody's trying to in some ways 0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:53.200 figure out where painting is going. And suddenly you do 0:34:53.280 --> 0:34:56.200 these Cubist paintings that that say, here is a way 0:34:56.480 --> 0:35:00.560 to do three dimensions on a two dimensional canvas. That 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:04.640 is a solution, and the art world then says, oh, 0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:07.520 that is that's a genius solution. These people are great, 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:12.040 and it maybe it starts with some more rebellious galerists 0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:14.480 or buyers, and then it spreads from there, and then 0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:17.399 obviously museums included in the history of art, and then 0:35:17.440 --> 0:35:20.120 from Cubism you get things like futurism, which you know 0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:22.600 takes the ideas of Cubism, but you know, adds from 0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:24.960 the third dimension to the fourth dimension as time into it. 0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:28.600 And so over over time you get these solutions, and 0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:33.160 then you get another group who, once those ideas become established, 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:36.600 just trying to push the art form even further and 0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:39.600 has to find its own solutions, and over time you 0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:42.680 get this narrative of one artist showing up and then 0:35:42.760 --> 0:35:46.120 the next artist negating the person's style or taking it further, 0:35:46.480 --> 0:35:49.319 and then that person gets established and and onward, and 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:54.120 your place in art history determines your overall status of 0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:57.680 your work. And you know, I I talked about Henri 0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:01.400 Rousseau in the book, who was a naive painter. Everyone 0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:04.920 made fun of him. He really wasn't um, you know, 0:36:05.000 --> 0:36:07.200 particularly sharp thinker, and a lot of his paintings aren't 0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:10.920 aren't maybe technically great, but he solved the problem for 0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:13.560 avant artists at the time because they were trying to 0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:18.800 figure out again how to push art beyond academic figurative work, 0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:21.600 and Rousseau, in his naive style, came up with these 0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:24.799 very dreamy canvases. And you can understand why, you know, 0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:29.319 surrealists or all these other artists being avant garde could 0:36:29.320 --> 0:36:31.360 look at that and say, if people can accept a 0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:33.960 russo they'll accept our work as well. And he solved 0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:36.799 a problem for them, and in his last two years 0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:39.400 of life was rewarded by them as being you know, 0:36:39.440 --> 0:36:43.480 a fellow compatriot. And then in writing the History of 0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:46.520 post Impressionism, they bring in Rousseau as one of the 0:36:46.520 --> 0:36:49.280 main artists and he's forever, you know, part of the canon, 0:36:49.600 --> 0:36:51.600 despite the fact that he if he had died two 0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:54.879 years earlier, he probably wouldn't have been so Um, this 0:36:55.280 --> 0:36:59.280 this art history, the way it's created, and the story. 0:37:00.080 --> 0:37:02.160 It comes down to a narrative, and I think this 0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:03.959 is this is important, and it kind of loops to 0:37:03.960 --> 0:37:07.479 to why today things feel that art is a little 0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:10.000 bit less interesting is because that narrative has become quite 0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:13.440 confused in a postmodern era where it's not clear the 0:37:13.480 --> 0:37:16.239 progression of this art came out and then this art 0:37:16.280 --> 0:37:17.920 came out, and then this art came out. And we 0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:22.279 used that quite a bit to understand our world and 0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:25.440 to understand the culture that we're in in any moment. 0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:27.319 And when you have too many things going on at 0:37:27.360 --> 0:37:29.360 once and nothing seems dominant, and nothing seems to be 0:37:29.360 --> 0:37:31.759 responding to the previous thing, it just gets hard for 0:37:31.840 --> 0:37:35.000 us to keep pays. Okay, let's talk about music. In 0:37:35.040 --> 0:37:38.480 the fifties, we had rock and roll. We can debate 0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:41.520 what the original song was, rocket eight eight or whatever. 0:37:41.840 --> 0:37:48.239 There was a huge burst of creativity which ultimately became static. 0:37:49.040 --> 0:37:52.560 Then in the early sixties you have the man you 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:55.680 factured singers there might be a little roll rock and 0:37:55.800 --> 0:37:59.880 roll uh element to their music. The Beatles come a 0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:03.560 long and it's a revolution. I lived through this. You're 0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:06.480 not old enough too, but it was literally night and day. 0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:09.120 So if we look at the Beatles, the Beatles were 0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:14.000 cleaned up for general consumption, which fits with your theory. 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:19.399 But they could have just been a novelty. Why did 0:38:19.440 --> 0:38:22.720 they continue to be at the forefront of the culture. 0:38:23.600 --> 0:38:26.480 So there's a great book on the Beatles that I 0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:29.840 recommend any Beatles fan reads, which is Ian McDonald's Revolution 0:38:29.880 --> 0:38:33.000 in the Head, and his idea is more or less 0:38:33.040 --> 0:38:35.920 that the Beatles very early they had written a lot 0:38:35.920 --> 0:38:37.560 of songs. I think they'd written something like a hundred 0:38:37.600 --> 0:38:41.399 songs before it Love Me Do and with especially Please 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:45.600 Squeez Me, tried to do something unique in every song. 0:38:45.840 --> 0:38:48.239 They knew what the convention was, and they would break 0:38:48.239 --> 0:38:50.320 the convention a little bit, and they started getting rewarded 0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:53.879 for it. And John and Paul both wanted to kind 0:38:53.880 --> 0:38:56.680 of outdo each other and the rest of these other 0:38:56.719 --> 0:39:00.879 bands by always adding one non convinced an all bit 0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:03.480 into the songs. And because they were so successful, they 0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:06.240 just kept going in that direction and pushing and pushing 0:39:06.280 --> 0:39:09.880 and pushing, and that maybe just that was kind of 0:39:09.920 --> 0:39:12.520 a quirk of their genius, I think, but also because 0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:16.319 they were rewarded for it, never stopped doing it. They 0:39:16.440 --> 0:39:20.480 also because they were imitated so quickly, because the machine 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:23.319 moved in to make a bunch of Beatles clones. I 0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:25.640 think they felt pressured to always be one step ahead 0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:30.040 as well. And so you know, if everybody's doing the 0:39:30.760 --> 0:39:34.040 kind of Liverpool sound and then they listen to Dylan, 0:39:34.200 --> 0:39:35.880 what would what would it be like to put it 0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:39.840 a little Dylan in this? Or you know there's an Indian, uh, 0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:43.319 you know, George find here's the guitar. Let's put guitar 0:39:43.400 --> 0:39:45.400 in this. No one said no, they said yeah, absolutely. 0:39:45.640 --> 0:39:50.640 So I think they personally, uh, they were they did 0:39:50.640 --> 0:39:54.600 not like to be imitated, and that imitation itself really 0:39:54.640 --> 0:39:57.680 pushed them forward, which I think is key. And even 0:39:57.680 --> 0:39:59.400 the Beatles haircut, I mean I think that you know 0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:02.880 the mop top up, uh, John and Paul hated it 0:40:02.880 --> 0:40:05.160 the first time they saw it on on Stu when 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:08.000 he was the Bassis. And then they realized if they 0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:11.440 went back to the UK with that mop top from Germany, 0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:14.239 they would be the only band that had that look. 0:40:14.320 --> 0:40:17.759 Then they would feel kind of superior in their understanding 0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.439 of continental culture. And they got there and they were 0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:24.080 they were different, and and their their fans loved it, 0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:26.160 and then of course everybody else gets the mop top. 0:40:26.440 --> 0:40:29.799 So I think from the very beginning that they themselves 0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:34.160 were just obsessed with not novelty in the sense of 0:40:34.280 --> 0:40:37.160 they were obsessed with invention. And you know what's interesting 0:40:37.200 --> 0:40:39.520 about their music from the seventies or even you know, 0:40:39.600 --> 0:40:42.160 kind of let it be, is that the degree which 0:40:42.200 --> 0:40:44.520 they just go backwards and they really stopped trying to 0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:47.160 be innovative and they go back to just roots sound. 0:40:47.239 --> 0:40:48.920 And maybe that was at the time where people just 0:40:48.920 --> 0:40:52.480 felt like innovation itself and fashion itself was a little 0:40:52.480 --> 0:40:55.120 bit done. But at least through the sixties, you know 0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:58.560 that whole era was every single year there was the 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:01.759 idea that you can keep pushing things forward, and you 0:41:01.760 --> 0:41:05.200 can see that across music, art and fashion. Okay, so 0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:09.960 is this something innate or if you look at history, 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:15.560 can people adapt this formula to their advantage? I think 0:41:15.640 --> 0:41:19.920 the sixties was a very particular case, and in some 0:41:19.960 --> 0:41:23.440 ways it's quite damaging to us that we keep looking 0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:25.719 back to it and comparing ourselves to the sixties. I 0:41:25.960 --> 0:41:29.000 think that was at once in a lifetime sort of 0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:33.560 situation in terms of commerce and media and all these 0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:37.040 things coming together and then obviously the youth boom and 0:41:37.320 --> 0:41:40.480 the post war ethos and the economy changing, and also 0:41:40.520 --> 0:41:44.000 the economy was good, and people worried less about, you know, 0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:46.520 how to make money because everything seemed to make money. 0:41:46.600 --> 0:41:50.359 So all that came together to make this very revolutionary 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:54.359 era that doesn't necessarily describe the seventies. The seventies had 0:41:54.360 --> 0:41:58.319 its own charms, doesn't describe the eighties. And now you know, 0:41:58.640 --> 0:42:01.120 we are living in a time of asis, but stasis 0:42:01.200 --> 0:42:05.879 is probably much more common. And it's only because we're 0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:09.560 still obsessed with Dylan and the Beatles and that whole 0:42:09.560 --> 0:42:14.200 sixties culture that we look back at it and say, 0:42:14.239 --> 0:42:16.440 why is our culture not like this now? But I 0:42:16.440 --> 0:42:18.360 don't I don't know if you can replicate it anymore. 0:42:18.360 --> 0:42:20.600 I think that it was just a specific time because 0:42:20.960 --> 0:42:22.560 you know, and and the point I'm trying to get 0:42:22.600 --> 0:42:26.000 at the book is not that artistic invention is over. 0:42:26.120 --> 0:42:28.279 That you know, there's probably still people out there doing 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:32.600 really an interesting, genius level things. It's the genius is 0:42:33.280 --> 0:42:36.880 proven by your influence of society. When you create some 0:42:36.960 --> 0:42:39.560 idea and then it becomes conventional and then everyone else 0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:41.960 does it. That's when you become a genius. The Beatles 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:46.759 were a genius band because everyone imitated the Beatles and 0:42:46.840 --> 0:42:49.799 all the pop music the year after they release something 0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:51.799 sounded like rip offs of the thing they had done. 0:42:52.280 --> 0:42:55.400 And today it's just very, very difficult for that that 0:42:55.600 --> 0:42:58.080 artist who has the potential to be genius to influence 0:42:58.120 --> 0:43:00.600 the whole market because things are too chaotic, or to 0:43:00.760 --> 0:43:05.239 think things are too static. So um, it's it is 0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:07.400 difficult just because we remember the sixties too well. And 0:43:07.960 --> 0:43:11.400 you know, you can watch Get Back and and you know, Spend. 0:43:12.040 --> 0:43:15.960 That was probably one of the most interesting cultural experiences 0:43:16.000 --> 0:43:18.480 I had in the last year's watching that rather than 0:43:18.520 --> 0:43:26.080 anything new. Okay, let's talk about the Beatles. They were experimenting. 0:43:27.200 --> 0:43:32.719 Other acts experimented. Why were the Beatles accepted and the 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:36.440 other acts were not? So give me the example of 0:43:36.480 --> 0:43:39.040 another act. Okay, I mean you're probably not going to 0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:43.520 know these records. Uh, you know, there's Donovan had the 0:43:43.680 --> 0:43:45.920 two records in a box. What was it? Message from 0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:49.640 a flower to a guard Okay, and then of course 0:43:49.680 --> 0:43:54.120 these stones it did imitate Sergeant Pepper's with their Satanic 0:43:54.200 --> 0:43:59.239 Majesty's request. Odden's Nut Gone Flake, many people say was 0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:04.840 by the Small Aces was the first, uh concept album? 0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:09.279 But or you know, the who get more credit for 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:12.120 doing like a rock opera. So how much does your 0:44:12.160 --> 0:44:16.560 inherent status affect whether people accept you? So if your first, 0:44:16.600 --> 0:44:20.200 but you don't have history, does that mean you probably 0:44:20.239 --> 0:44:24.960 won't make it? Yes, I mean the Beatles were relatively 0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:27.080 early on all these things. I mean I think Donovan, 0:44:28.480 --> 0:44:33.120 if you look at the timeline, he's probably lagging the 0:44:33.160 --> 0:44:36.280 Beatles on all of the records. Who did Harpsichord first? 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:38.520 Probably the Beatles and then Donovan, although we'll have to 0:44:38.520 --> 0:44:42.000 go look at the look at the chronology. Um, you 0:44:42.080 --> 0:44:45.320 know the Stones, you know, the first Stones hit was 0:44:45.360 --> 0:44:48.279 written by the Beatles, and then yeah, Satanic Majesty's is 0:44:48.600 --> 0:44:51.200 is kind of a poor man's Starry de Peppers. Uh. 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:53.200 And then you know the Stones really found their sound 0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:55.880 by getting far away from that. And and you know 0:44:55.920 --> 0:44:59.839 Exile is probably the marquee record rather than than trying 0:44:59.840 --> 0:45:03.359 to be a Beatles rip off. Uh. Yeah, I think 0:45:03.440 --> 0:45:06.680 the Beatles were fast enough where even if maybe there 0:45:06.719 --> 0:45:11.960 was a concept record before Sergeant Pepper, the they were 0:45:11.960 --> 0:45:14.480 still the main band everyone was looking at just to 0:45:14.520 --> 0:45:16.960 set the direction of the market. And so somebody may 0:45:16.960 --> 0:45:18.880 be on the fringes doing it, but for them to 0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:25.320 do it meant everything. And you know, rock opera seems 0:45:25.400 --> 0:45:28.680 like almost a bit of a step backwards in the 0:45:28.719 --> 0:45:30.960 sense that all they're doing is fusing this kind of 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:34.120 previous form with rock and trying to say, like, oh, 0:45:34.200 --> 0:45:36.279 rock is important because you can make an opera out 0:45:36.280 --> 0:45:40.160 of it. Um, you know, E l O was a 0:45:40.200 --> 0:45:43.960 bunch of kind of Beatles rip off ideas. Plus let's 0:45:43.960 --> 0:45:46.719 added a full orchestra, you know, to make it seem 0:45:46.760 --> 0:45:53.600 more serious. So I do think, um, the Beatles, because 0:45:53.719 --> 0:45:56.920 they were just far and away the you know, the 0:45:56.960 --> 0:45:59.920 Kings of em I like, they were just the at 0:46:00.400 --> 0:46:04.960 so superstar status. Anything they did legitimize any practice that 0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:06.840 they did. And that is one of the benefits of 0:46:06.960 --> 0:46:09.640 high status is any strange thing you do then suddenly 0:46:09.719 --> 0:46:13.520 becomes not strange, whereas if the small faces do it, 0:46:12.880 --> 0:46:23.560 it just doesn't take on that same cachet. Well, that's 0:46:23.560 --> 0:46:25.759 another point in your book that if you're at the 0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:29.279 very top, to signal that you have the status is 0:46:29.320 --> 0:46:33.480 to break convention by doing whatever you want. Let's say, 0:46:33.520 --> 0:46:36.080 if you're a billionaire and you show up at the 0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:43.040 black tie event and some tidied outfit people might say, well, 0:46:43.080 --> 0:46:48.720 maybe he's onto something, maybe he's breaking convention, and uh 0:46:49.360 --> 0:46:53.719 so tell us about the people at the top status level, 0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:58.319 which was all the beatles about feeling free, that other 0:46:58.360 --> 0:47:02.360 people envious the every their freedom and how it changes convention. 0:47:03.880 --> 0:47:06.239 So one of the benefits as you move up, and 0:47:06.560 --> 0:47:10.280 again it's good to remember that your status position comes 0:47:10.280 --> 0:47:12.040 with more and more benefits the more you move up. 0:47:12.080 --> 0:47:14.400 And one of the benefits you get his difference. And 0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:18.000 you think about if you're a boss, you can put 0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:20.960 your feet up on the desk and your subordinates come 0:47:21.000 --> 0:47:22.600 in and they have to deal with it. The subordinates 0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:24.759 can't put their feet on their desk when you walk in, 0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:30.359 So you get deference. Two, behave the way you want. 0:47:30.760 --> 0:47:33.399 At the same time, as you move up, you've got 0:47:33.400 --> 0:47:37.240 to demarcate yourself from people lower on the status hierarchy, 0:47:37.280 --> 0:47:39.239 and which means you have to do things differently. So 0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:42.480 you both have the power and the right to break convention, 0:47:42.800 --> 0:47:46.160 but you also have the responsibility to break convention in 0:47:46.320 --> 0:47:50.160 order to show that you're different. And so you know, 0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:52.239 if you show up at a black tie event in 0:47:52.320 --> 0:47:57.959 a loony tunes Tasmanian Devil, Cumberbun and your Elon Musk. 0:47:58.200 --> 0:47:59.880 People would just think it's a joke or they'll have 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:02.080 fun with it. But you'r Elon Musk, and your status 0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:05.799 is not damaged. If you're somebody who almost didn't get 0:48:05.800 --> 0:48:08.360 invited and you show up that way, it's quite like 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:12.200 you won't be invited back, and so that deference becomes 0:48:12.239 --> 0:48:15.600 a power. But then also if everybody's talking about the 0:48:15.600 --> 0:48:18.400 outrageous thing that Elon Musk war, then that only adds 0:48:18.440 --> 0:48:21.239 to his mystique and makes him more iconic. So, you know, 0:48:21.320 --> 0:48:23.640 going back to the Beatles again, I do think they 0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:27.279 were quite maybe it was unconscious and maybe it was 0:48:27.280 --> 0:48:30.280 conscious and many times, but they were quite sensitive about 0:48:30.320 --> 0:48:32.680 doing things that they had already done before and that 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:36.279 other people were doing. And the fact that you know, 0:48:36.320 --> 0:48:40.160 Sergeant Peppers comes out, everyone else then starts making psychedelic records. Well, 0:48:40.160 --> 0:48:42.239 they didn't really want to go back to making psychedelic 0:48:42.280 --> 0:48:45.319 records because you know, it was just a trend to 0:48:45.360 --> 0:48:47.160 that point and they would have been repeating themselves. So 0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:49.520 they go, you know, one eight and do the White Album, 0:48:49.520 --> 0:48:51.839 which is you know, going back to the root their 0:48:52.000 --> 0:48:55.680 their roots and and roots music in general. So you 0:48:55.719 --> 0:48:58.160 know they had the right to make those changes. But 0:48:58.280 --> 0:49:00.719 I think they were also quite sensitive about if we 0:49:00.760 --> 0:49:04.239 make another psychedelic record, we're just gonna be another one 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:07.640 of these middling bands that makes psychedelic records. Well, needless say, 0:49:08.120 --> 0:49:10.160 two members of the Beatles are dead, they're not going 0:49:10.239 --> 0:49:14.120 to reform. But the so called dinosaurs who still exist, 0:49:14.760 --> 0:49:20.520 Paul McCartney, uh, the Stones, the who they go out 0:49:20.640 --> 0:49:27.000 and play relatively faithful versions of their hits. Bob Dylan 0:49:27.120 --> 0:49:33.560 starting thirties, around thirty years ago, he started totally redoing 0:49:33.600 --> 0:49:36.560 his hits such that I remember going literally sitting in 0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:42.440 the front row and having no idea what the song was. Okay, 0:49:42.480 --> 0:49:45.880 and this is, if anything, he's pushed the envelope further. 0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:49.000 So what do I say? I say, I have to 0:49:49.120 --> 0:49:53.200 give this guy credit for pushing the envelope, but I 0:49:53.239 --> 0:49:56.600 don't want to go so is he gaining status or 0:49:56.640 --> 0:49:59.719 losing status? And then, you know, and no other time 0:49:59.760 --> 0:50:02.840 thinking about their people saying how greed he is and 0:50:03.040 --> 0:50:05.399 how great these shows are. And I'm saying and I've 0:50:05.400 --> 0:50:08.000 seen it and I don't get it at all, But 0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:10.680 are they doing that for status, and of course the 0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:13.880 other factor these people rage They're not gonna live forever, 0:50:13.960 --> 0:50:17.200 so people want to go for the last go round. 0:50:17.920 --> 0:50:20.360 But what is going on with Dylan as opposed to 0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:26.080 the other old acts. When you achieve success as an artist, 0:50:26.120 --> 0:50:28.440 you have a choice, which is either to repeat yourself 0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:32.799 forever and cash in because people will just want the 0:50:32.840 --> 0:50:36.560 thing you've done before, or to keep breaking your own forms. 0:50:36.600 --> 0:50:40.000 So if your inventions become conventional, and you're an artist 0:50:40.560 --> 0:50:43.760 who really believes in breaking convention, then you have this dilemma, 0:50:43.760 --> 0:50:46.680 should I break my own conventions or not? And most 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:50.560 artists for financial reasons or they only had one invention 0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:54.239 in them basically stop and just repeat themselves forever. I 0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:56.680 think Dylan is quite interesting and fits into more of 0:50:56.680 --> 0:50:58.839 a model of Eric Satti or you know, all these 0:50:59.160 --> 0:51:03.440 past artistic geniuses of someone who as soon as they 0:51:03.480 --> 0:51:06.239 do something, hates it and moves forward. And you see 0:51:06.239 --> 0:51:08.239 that throughout his career and and you know, I was 0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:10.080 just talking about the Beatles being like this, but Dylan's 0:51:10.080 --> 0:51:13.520 even more so, which is um does folk than everybody 0:51:13.520 --> 0:51:16.360 that's folks. Okay, I'm doing folk, I'm doing rock, and 0:51:16.360 --> 0:51:19.480 I'm gonna make everybody angry. Then everyone's doing that, and uh, 0:51:19.520 --> 0:51:21.839 you know disappears, and you know, at some point he's 0:51:21.880 --> 0:51:24.960 making gospel records, are becoming born again Christian or whatever. 0:51:25.040 --> 0:51:27.560 So he is always on the edge of trying to 0:51:27.600 --> 0:51:32.080 break the conventions that he himself sets. And um, he 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:34.560 is Dylan. He's got the status to pull that off. 0:51:34.680 --> 0:51:38.520 Whereas if you go see I don't know, Bad Company 0:51:38.600 --> 0:51:40.560 or some some you know band that had one hit 0:51:41.080 --> 0:51:44.120 in the seventies, everyone's there to see the hit. They're 0:51:44.160 --> 0:51:46.160 not there to see you experiment. You don't quite have 0:51:46.239 --> 0:51:50.120 that status. Um, there's the there's that joke on The 0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:55.120 Simpsons where uh, Homer goes to see Bachman Turner Overdrive 0:51:55.680 --> 0:51:58.040 and they're like, let's play some new materials, like get 0:51:58.160 --> 0:52:00.799 play taking care of Business, and then they start playing it. 0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:02.640 It's like get to the chorus and then they start 0:52:02.680 --> 0:52:04.640 playing the chorus. He says, get to work and working 0:52:04.719 --> 0:52:07.040 over time, you know. And so you know, that's what 0:52:07.080 --> 0:52:09.680 your audience wants. They just want the double encore of 0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:13.439 taking care of business. Then that's what you provide. That's 0:52:13.600 --> 0:52:17.080 that's at that point, it's just commerse. You're really outside 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:19.239 of the realm of art. But you know, kudos to 0:52:19.280 --> 0:52:22.399 Dylan for trying to keep it artistic after all these years. Well, 0:52:22.440 --> 0:52:27.040 as I say, intellectually fantastic, but I'm experienced it enough 0:52:27.080 --> 0:52:31.120 to know it's not something palatable. So the people who 0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:34.600 are going, and they're going again and again, is that 0:52:35.200 --> 0:52:38.719 status why they're going? And to tell you, well, you 0:52:38.800 --> 0:52:42.680 just don't get it. I can't speak for every person, 0:52:42.760 --> 0:52:45.960 but they're Dylan fans who think you can't do wrong. 0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:49.280 And I mean again, that's that's Dylan status. Not everybody 0:52:49.280 --> 0:52:52.879 has that. Okay, let's talk about the modern era, the 0:52:52.920 --> 0:52:55.759 Internet era. Let's just focus on this century or they'll 0:52:55.760 --> 0:52:58.440 really start to get traction in the last century. But 0:52:58.480 --> 0:53:00.920 it was in this century we you know, high speed 0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:05.040 connections and things really started to develop. So prior to 0:53:05.080 --> 0:53:09.440 the year. Staying with music, if you wrote a great song, 0:53:10.480 --> 0:53:14.120 it would rise to the surface. Now there's so much 0:53:14.160 --> 0:53:17.319 in the channel. You can write a great song and 0:53:17.400 --> 0:53:21.799 it without either luck or marketing, it goes nowhere. So 0:53:22.640 --> 0:53:26.719 the other thing is in let's call it mainstream music. 0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:29.479 Mainstream has such a bad connotation. But I'm gonna stay 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:32.799 with this, you know, because there's music made at home. 0:53:32.880 --> 0:53:36.320 There's always been in there's music purveyed to the masses 0:53:36.680 --> 0:53:41.040 with wanting to catch fire and have success. In that world, 0:53:41.239 --> 0:53:45.160 every three or four years we had a new sound. Okay, 0:53:45.239 --> 0:53:49.760 the hair bands were eliminated by the Seattle sound, and 0:53:50.000 --> 0:53:54.400 I could go on. Before the last twenty years it 0:53:54.480 --> 0:53:57.359 has been hip hop. We have not had a new 0:53:57.480 --> 0:54:02.160 sound with any strength, with any dominant. Why is that? 0:54:03.440 --> 0:54:06.600 Although I would argue that hip hop the sound has changed, 0:54:06.760 --> 0:54:09.719 that the beat has changed, the beat there was in 0:54:09.719 --> 0:54:14.319 the hip hop world has been pretty consistent about not 0:54:14.440 --> 0:54:17.600 getting stuck too much into convention in the long run, 0:54:17.719 --> 0:54:20.040 in the sense that you have beats that were drum machine, 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:22.160 then you had beats that were sampler, then you had 0:54:22.200 --> 0:54:24.320 some live beats, then you had a mix. And now 0:54:25.440 --> 0:54:28.520 most hip hop is using trapp or drill beats that 0:54:28.560 --> 0:54:31.280 sound nothing like nineties hip hop. So hip hop itself 0:54:31.320 --> 0:54:33.160 has had enough innovation that I think it keeps it 0:54:33.200 --> 0:54:38.320 fresh and keeps it moving. The number of artists has changed, um, 0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:41.200 so that that is why I think hip hop is 0:54:41.239 --> 0:54:46.000 dominated itself. But you are right, which is that there 0:54:46.080 --> 0:54:49.040 has not been something that kind of knocks hip hop 0:54:49.080 --> 0:54:54.200 off the pedestal as being the main news form of sound. Now, 0:54:54.400 --> 0:54:58.000 you could argue that throughout the twentieth century, black artists 0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:02.840 were the innovators. White artists ripped them off, created the 0:55:02.880 --> 0:55:06.840 more palatable version that sold, which only pushed black artists 0:55:06.840 --> 0:55:09.480 to create new forms, which then were ripped off again. 0:55:09.840 --> 0:55:11.840 And so you can think about rock and roll, R 0:55:11.880 --> 0:55:14.680 and B to rock and roll, funk to disco, all 0:55:14.760 --> 0:55:19.480 that um and you know, uh dick he did. She 0:55:19.480 --> 0:55:21.360 wrote a book called sub Culture. His argument as the 0:55:21.400 --> 0:55:25.000 punk itself was white kids who were into reggae, but 0:55:25.040 --> 0:55:28.319 reggae got so into black nationalism and it could not 0:55:28.400 --> 0:55:30.680 be done by a white artist. That they made punk 0:55:30.719 --> 0:55:34.319 as a kind of their their own uh taking of 0:55:34.360 --> 0:55:36.880 the spirit, but putting, putting in their own direction. And 0:55:36.960 --> 0:55:40.120 so with the rise of hip hop and reggae, these 0:55:40.120 --> 0:55:43.120 were both forms that white artists were more or less 0:55:43.120 --> 0:55:47.080 excluded from. And eminem is a rare case. He's not 0:55:47.280 --> 0:55:50.000 he's not the rule. And so black artists were able 0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:54.160 to control their sound and their genre better. It has 0:55:54.160 --> 0:55:57.040 not been ripped off by white audiences to force them 0:55:57.080 --> 0:56:00.520 to make something else. So so that six tests and 0:56:00.560 --> 0:56:06.120 they're there control of it to Uh, at least an artistically, 0:56:06.239 --> 0:56:11.439 I think is meant that, um, where there's innovation, it's 0:56:11.440 --> 0:56:13.960 coming inside the hip hop world rather than outside of it, 0:56:14.040 --> 0:56:16.200 So that that maybe is one explanation for hip hop 0:56:16.239 --> 0:56:19.959 in general. Then there's just the broader question of why 0:56:20.040 --> 0:56:23.160 is there such stagnancy in the artists themselves? Why are 0:56:23.200 --> 0:56:27.919 you know we live in this world of incredible diversity, 0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:33.279 an incredible ah ability for anyone to create something on 0:56:33.320 --> 0:56:36.239 the computer, to put it, to distribute it, to get 0:56:36.239 --> 0:56:38.600 it out there. Why is it that we're really focused 0:56:38.600 --> 0:56:41.640 on this this set of artists that I almost call 0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:45.000 like a monopoly artists. I mean, Beyonce is a monopoly 0:56:45.080 --> 0:56:47.160 artist at this point in the sense of does anyone 0:56:47.200 --> 0:56:49.239 believe that she can be dislodged from the position that 0:56:49.280 --> 0:56:51.759 she's in. It's she's kind of too big to fail 0:56:51.800 --> 0:56:55.480 at this point. So, um, how do you why is 0:56:55.520 --> 0:57:00.360 it that these artists are not demoded and devo valu'd 0:57:00.440 --> 0:57:03.000 first of all, so you don't have a new generation 0:57:03.040 --> 0:57:05.920 of artists who are trying to take down Guns and 0:57:06.000 --> 0:57:08.080 Roses the way Nirvana. Did you know, Guns and Roses 0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:11.160 came to Nirvana and said open for us on our 0:57:11.200 --> 0:57:15.359 tour and Kurt I think, you know, Kirk Cobain was 0:57:16.240 --> 0:57:19.400 against some of the homophobic and racist things that Axel 0:57:19.480 --> 0:57:21.960 Rose said or didn't like guns roses or whatever, but 0:57:22.040 --> 0:57:25.440 rejected that and instead of grunge becoming kind of a 0:57:25.720 --> 0:57:29.040 offshoot of heavy metal, just completely replaced heavy metal. So 0:57:29.080 --> 0:57:30.800 you don't see that right now. You don't see people 0:57:30.840 --> 0:57:34.760 coming out and saying these top artists, um need to 0:57:34.840 --> 0:57:37.360 get buried and we need to move forward from there. 0:57:37.760 --> 0:57:41.040 The economics are such that you can be on the margins, 0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:46.640 make a really cool sound and have that sucked into 0:57:47.120 --> 0:57:51.240 a Kanye Drake song, and then that's financially the best 0:57:51.320 --> 0:57:52.840 thing for you to do and the way for you 0:57:52.880 --> 0:57:55.080 to move forward, rather than to say I'm going to 0:57:55.160 --> 0:57:57.560 take down Drake that you know, we're going to make 0:57:57.560 --> 0:58:01.640 a sound that completely makes every Drake albums ridiculous and 0:58:02.360 --> 0:58:04.040 we're going to do that instead, and then we're gonna 0:58:04.080 --> 0:58:06.360 shift the whole market. And so everyone is kind of 0:58:06.360 --> 0:58:10.280 working with the monopoly artists rather than trying to overtake them. 0:58:10.800 --> 0:58:12.840 And maybe the economics are just that they have to 0:58:13.000 --> 0:58:16.080 and maybe that the fact that the Internet has made 0:58:16.120 --> 0:58:18.280 it so hard to break through that the only way 0:58:18.360 --> 0:58:21.520 is to wait for one of these giant stars to 0:58:21.560 --> 0:58:24.080 kind of anoint you and to go forward. But those 0:58:24.160 --> 0:58:28.360 dynamics are making things feel stagnant. So even if there's 0:58:28.400 --> 0:58:31.800 some marginal cool idea on the sideline, like you know, 0:58:31.880 --> 0:58:35.840 drill or something, and it gets sucked into the mainstream, 0:58:36.080 --> 0:58:38.480 it doesn't take over the mainstream. It's just it's used 0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:41.680 at a certain moment and then the mainstream moves on. Okay, 0:58:41.760 --> 0:58:43.840 in your book, you delineate how it used to be 0:58:43.920 --> 0:58:46.680 an art and how it's not that way today, and 0:58:46.720 --> 0:58:49.160 I'd like you to talk a little bit about that. Specifically, 0:58:49.160 --> 0:58:54.240 you would say, Okay, you have a creative class that 0:58:54.480 --> 0:58:59.040 might watch the Bear on television, would be following the 0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:03.240 new acts. They would go to the shows of the 0:59:03.320 --> 0:59:06.959 new acts, and then the acts would grow because they 0:59:06.960 --> 0:59:10.680 would have status, other people want to emulate them, it's cool, etcetera. 0:59:11.160 --> 0:59:20.160 Whereas that really doesn't work anymore. Explain why. So it 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:24.800 is not necessarily that the creative class always started every 0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:28.240 trend or that everything they liked became mainstream culture. There's 0:59:28.240 --> 0:59:31.800 certainly a lot of things that just stopped with the 0:59:31.800 --> 0:59:36.520 creative class or stopped with art, art school, kids. What 0:59:36.720 --> 0:59:41.200 has happened now is that it used to be that 0:59:41.560 --> 0:59:43.720 there's so few media channels, and those media channels were 0:59:43.800 --> 0:59:47.040 run by art school kids and creative class kids. So 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:49.680 if you think about MTV and the eighties, these are 0:59:49.760 --> 0:59:53.240 probably a lot of n y U grads and they're 0:59:53.280 --> 0:59:57.720 personally into relatively underground or or indie things, and they're 0:59:57.960 --> 1:00:01.240 creating a whole network for young people across the country 1:00:01.280 --> 1:00:03.000 that's trying to pick up as many of those things 1:00:03.000 --> 1:00:04.960 as possible. So, yes, you have like head Banger's Ball, 1:00:05.160 --> 1:00:07.480 but it's you know, put it's like a heavy metal show, 1:00:07.520 --> 1:00:10.600 but it's put late at night so that normal people 1:00:10.640 --> 1:00:12.600 don't see it. But you know, you know MTV wraps. 1:00:13.160 --> 1:00:15.280 I think it was what Ted DeMier, one of the 1:00:15.320 --> 1:00:18.520 demmis you did that with five Freddie. You know, that 1:00:18.640 --> 1:00:23.280 was straight out of downtown arts appreciation of hip hop, 1:00:23.760 --> 1:00:26.200 and they put that on the air. Hip hop becomes 1:00:26.200 --> 1:00:30.920 this national phenomenon. But there's this real desire among the 1:00:31.000 --> 1:00:33.840 people who work there to take what they think is 1:00:33.880 --> 1:00:35.800 cool and kind of downtown New York and put it 1:00:35.960 --> 1:00:38.440 on TV and put it on and make it national. 1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:42.960 And today, not only are there too many media channels 1:00:43.000 --> 1:00:46.080 for one media channel to really do that. But there's 1:00:46.160 --> 1:00:50.439 also this omnivore culture in which people like high and low, 1:00:50.480 --> 1:00:54.160 they like mainstream in indie, and so the group of 1:00:54.240 --> 1:00:57.800 people who are the gatekeepers in a certain degree, I mean, 1:00:57.840 --> 1:01:00.800 maybe they're weaker gatekeepers, but still making the decisions on 1:01:00.840 --> 1:01:04.400 what to cover and what youth culture is going to 1:01:04.400 --> 1:01:08.320 to be and what people are going to see there. 1:01:08.360 --> 1:01:12.760 They are not necessarily able to number one, just only 1:01:12.760 --> 1:01:15.160 focus on indie culture because of the economics of it. 1:01:15.400 --> 1:01:18.160 But second is that there's some sort of principle where 1:01:18.200 --> 1:01:21.040 they just don't think they should focus on only the strange, 1:01:21.240 --> 1:01:24.000 marginal things. They need to review the big albums, they 1:01:24.040 --> 1:01:26.800 need to praise the big albums, they need to praise 1:01:26.840 --> 1:01:29.240 the big TV shows or talk about the big TV shows, 1:01:29.720 --> 1:01:35.480 and so you crowd out some of that space or 1:01:35.520 --> 1:01:38.840 some of that dialogue that used to go in some 1:01:38.880 --> 1:01:40.680 ways by it was a bias, but it was a 1:01:40.680 --> 1:01:43.680 bias towards the indie and the emerging and the underground, 1:01:44.040 --> 1:01:45.760 and that has been crowded out by the sense that 1:01:45.760 --> 1:01:49.560 we have to cover everything now. And so the creative 1:01:49.600 --> 1:01:52.800 class to use that term, or just people who are 1:01:52.880 --> 1:01:55.480 artistically minded did have a lot of power to shift 1:01:55.520 --> 1:02:01.439 taste towards their specific kind of strange, pisticated sounds or 1:02:01.800 --> 1:02:05.840 or ideas, and that group itself has taken a step 1:02:05.840 --> 1:02:07.760 back from that. So it's not you know, it wasn't 1:02:07.800 --> 1:02:11.560 necessary that mainstream consumers ever liked that that those things 1:02:11.720 --> 1:02:14.280 could they could just push it on mainstream consumers because 1:02:14.320 --> 1:02:17.200 they had the monopoly, And now they don't have the monopoly, 1:02:17.280 --> 1:02:22.120 and they themselves are not that interested in only being 1:02:22.120 --> 1:02:27.200 interested Sorry, they're not that interested only looking into things 1:02:27.240 --> 1:02:29.840 that are marginal. Because the other thing, too is there 1:02:30.200 --> 1:02:32.400 aren't things that are marginal the way that Downtown New 1:02:32.480 --> 1:02:35.840 York was. Uh, you know, you were in downtown New 1:02:35.880 --> 1:02:38.120 York and there's some new wave band or no wave 1:02:38.160 --> 1:02:40.360 band or something that you were particularly interested in that 1:02:40.400 --> 1:02:43.560 you could see getting big because a major label just 1:02:43.600 --> 1:02:45.560 signed them or something. I think that whole that whole 1:02:45.600 --> 1:02:48.840 system is also gone. So there's not an obvious source 1:02:49.000 --> 1:02:51.120 for where you're gonna pick things up and bring them 1:02:51.200 --> 1:02:54.080 bring them along. What about the concept of poptimism. He 1:02:54.240 --> 1:02:57.760 used to be the critic in his black leather jacket 1:02:57.880 --> 1:03:02.520 jeans boots would say it sucks, but now it's reversed, 1:03:02.560 --> 1:03:05.760 all people saying, oh, the mainstream is great and you're 1:03:05.800 --> 1:03:09.240 just too harsh on it. M what's going on there? 1:03:09.880 --> 1:03:13.080 So I think the original incarnation of optimism was a 1:03:13.160 --> 1:03:19.120 really important corrective because that black leather jacket critic who 1:03:19.160 --> 1:03:22.840 thinks everything sucks unless you sound like the Stooges, that 1:03:22.960 --> 1:03:26.080 was not helpful. And the idea that sounding like the 1:03:26.120 --> 1:03:30.080 Stooges was somehow innovative in makes no sense. So the 1:03:30.360 --> 1:03:36.080 the original poptimism idea came out of trying to correct 1:03:36.920 --> 1:03:39.560 the over emphasis on saying the Strokes are the most 1:03:39.560 --> 1:03:43.280 innovative band in America, where you look at how Missy 1:03:43.320 --> 1:03:46.200 Elliott is producing all these mainstream are R and B hits, 1:03:46.240 --> 1:03:49.080 and they're just so much more interesting that they're bringing 1:03:49.080 --> 1:03:51.880 in all these new influences, And so that bias was 1:03:51.920 --> 1:03:54.680 blinding people. And so the original poptimism is great. It's 1:03:54.720 --> 1:03:57.600 just saying there can be innovation across the spectrum. It 1:03:57.600 --> 1:03:59.960 can be in a Christina Christina Aguilera song. It doesn't 1:04:00.120 --> 1:04:03.680 to only be um the recycling of these rock cliches. 1:04:04.880 --> 1:04:07.880 We've now moved into what I would call an ultra poptimism, 1:04:07.920 --> 1:04:10.760 which is to say, the more things are popular, the 1:04:10.840 --> 1:04:13.600 better they must be because they mean so many things 1:04:13.760 --> 1:04:16.880 to different people. And if you think about art simply 1:04:17.080 --> 1:04:21.560 as a vehicle for meaning that or a vehicle for entertainment. 1:04:21.760 --> 1:04:25.080 And if more people like Taylor Swift than another artist, 1:04:25.160 --> 1:04:27.720 Taylor Swift must be more important, then you've kind of 1:04:28.040 --> 1:04:30.120 lost one of the main points of art. If I 1:04:30.160 --> 1:04:32.560 go back to the thing I was saying earlier, which 1:04:32.600 --> 1:04:35.360 is invention, which is to take a convention and break it. 1:04:35.840 --> 1:04:39.000 And the original poptimism was saying, there is invention happening 1:04:39.120 --> 1:04:42.080 in pop and we shouldn't ignore it, where now it's 1:04:42.120 --> 1:04:46.680 more invention itself is pretension and we shouldn't. We don't 1:04:46.680 --> 1:04:48.920 really need to worry about that. What's most important is 1:04:49.000 --> 1:04:51.440 that Taylor Swift has lots of fans, and so she 1:04:51.560 --> 1:04:54.680 must be important, and we need to take Taylor Swift very, 1:04:54.760 --> 1:04:58.520 very seriously. Now, Taylor Swift could be innovative, and that 1:04:58.560 --> 1:05:01.360 could be where innovation comes from, but there isn't. There's 1:05:01.400 --> 1:05:07.200 an incredible deference paid to these monopoly artists because uh, 1:05:07.240 --> 1:05:10.640 they are popular, and it's seen that that popularity itself 1:05:10.760 --> 1:05:12.920 is some is a virtue in a way that I 1:05:12.920 --> 1:05:15.720 think for older critics that definitely was not true, and 1:05:15.840 --> 1:05:22.240 and maybe there was a bias against anything popular, that 1:05:22.320 --> 1:05:25.440 anything popular must be conventional and wrong. And I do 1:05:25.480 --> 1:05:30.800 think poptimism moved us out of that. But uh, it 1:05:30.840 --> 1:05:33.120 has gone too far. Not not the same critics, but 1:05:33.160 --> 1:05:34.800 I think that ethos has maybe gone too far with 1:05:34.840 --> 1:05:38.160 other people. Okay, you know we were talking earlier about 1:05:38.160 --> 1:05:41.720 social media as opposed to mainstream media. Let's use a 1:05:41.800 --> 1:05:46.720 case of Beyonce. She comes out with new work. It's 1:05:46.800 --> 1:05:50.720 like God delivering tablets in the mainstream media. She is 1:05:50.800 --> 1:05:56.439 everywhere the josianas. All this information is now visible. All 1:05:56.480 --> 1:06:00.120 the statistics are right there for anybody to see. If 1:06:00.160 --> 1:06:02.520 you look at the Spotify top fifty, they the album 1:06:02.520 --> 1:06:09.080 comes out, everybody's listening. But the album fell very very fast. 1:06:10.000 --> 1:06:13.320 One could argue it was a stiff So is this 1:06:13.480 --> 1:06:18.680 the disconnection between old and new? What's going on here? 1:06:20.120 --> 1:06:22.600 I saw this also with two other things, which is 1:06:22.840 --> 1:06:27.040 Fiona Apples Fetch the Bolt Cutters got a ten on Pitchfork, 1:06:27.080 --> 1:06:29.280 and it's a great album and I still listen to it. 1:06:29.840 --> 1:06:32.480 But within about a month I didn't hear anyone talk 1:06:32.520 --> 1:06:34.800 about that record at all, it just completely fallen off 1:06:34.840 --> 1:06:36.400 the map. And maybe that's I don't talk to the 1:06:36.440 --> 1:06:39.680 right people, but it did seem like there was a 1:06:39.720 --> 1:06:41.760 burst of activity and interest in it, and then it 1:06:41.840 --> 1:06:45.720 just faded out. And then with don'ta the Kanye West 1:06:45.800 --> 1:06:51.360 album that also it's Uh, there was more hype for 1:06:51.480 --> 1:06:52.840 it and more interest in it. And I looked at 1:06:52.840 --> 1:06:55.080 Google searches and there are more Google searches for it 1:06:55.120 --> 1:06:57.440 before it came out, and then the day it dropped, 1:06:57.480 --> 1:06:58.880 there was a big spike, and then no one ever 1:06:58.880 --> 1:07:02.959 talked about it again. So the media spectacle of these 1:07:03.000 --> 1:07:07.360 albums is quite powerful, but the sense that you're going 1:07:07.400 --> 1:07:10.040 to spend time with it and absorb it and love 1:07:10.080 --> 1:07:12.120 it and make it part of your identity seems to 1:07:12.160 --> 1:07:14.880 be gone. And and that is one of the things 1:07:14.920 --> 1:07:18.720 that is really hurting culture at the moment. And the 1:07:18.760 --> 1:07:20.880 way we thought about culture in the twentieth century is 1:07:20.920 --> 1:07:23.960 that there's lots of entertainment. Every day, there's something new, 1:07:24.000 --> 1:07:27.040 there's a new meme to follow, there's a new album 1:07:27.120 --> 1:07:29.800 that has dropped, or there's something there's a new you know, 1:07:30.240 --> 1:07:34.120 five thousand new TikTok videos to watch. But culture was 1:07:34.200 --> 1:07:36.880 not just entertainment. It wasn't just consumption. It was people 1:07:38.600 --> 1:07:43.919 taking a piece of art, a film or an album, 1:07:43.920 --> 1:07:46.640 consuming it, reconsuming it and making it part of their 1:07:46.640 --> 1:07:51.160 identity and telling other people about it, and creating friendships 1:07:51.200 --> 1:07:55.120 based on the appreciation of these things, and having a 1:07:55.160 --> 1:07:59.640 group whose entire uh identity is based in the appreciation 1:07:59.640 --> 1:08:03.360 of these things. And so what you're seeing is one 1:08:03.400 --> 1:08:06.680 time consumption and then everyone moving on and not making 1:08:06.680 --> 1:08:09.320 it part of their identities. And this is this is 1:08:09.360 --> 1:08:12.960 the difference between viral culture and you know, twentieth century 1:08:12.960 --> 1:08:15.080 culture is the viral culture moves so fast that you 1:08:15.200 --> 1:08:18.400 have this big spurt and then everyone moves on. Um, 1:08:18.479 --> 1:08:23.000 there was this kind of meme I don't know, three 1:08:23.040 --> 1:08:25.200 weeks ago or something or a month ago about Amtrak 1:08:25.320 --> 1:08:28.479 just wrote trains, and so then everyone was just writing 1:08:28.479 --> 1:08:31.160 one word and literally twenty four hours later, if you 1:08:31.200 --> 1:08:33.800 made the same joke, it was just lame like that, Yeah, 1:08:33.840 --> 1:08:36.519 that was yesterday. And the speed of which that happens 1:08:37.160 --> 1:08:40.000 means these things can't carry on and they can't really 1:08:40.000 --> 1:08:43.360 be the way we think about culture. So culture is 1:08:43.400 --> 1:08:46.599 moving so fast it's kind of not fulfilling one of 1:08:46.640 --> 1:08:50.599 its basic needs or one of the things we looked 1:08:50.640 --> 1:08:53.280 to it for in the twentieth century, which is identity formation. 1:08:53.760 --> 1:08:56.120 And so if people were listening to Beyonce and say 1:08:56.160 --> 1:08:57.760 that was nice and not going back to it and 1:08:57.800 --> 1:09:01.120 not making her work part of the identity, then it's 1:09:01.200 --> 1:09:03.880 lost a huge amount of social value that he used 1:09:03.880 --> 1:09:09.080 to have. Well, let's stay on that topic. Uh Taylor Swift, 1:09:09.680 --> 1:09:13.320 and this is a very dicey subject for me. Um 1:09:13.560 --> 1:09:17.160 she appeared on the Grammys and saying unbelievably off key 1:09:18.920 --> 1:09:22.040 prior to Taylor Swift, if you did that, killed your 1:09:22.080 --> 1:09:25.400 career overnight. Certainly in the history of rock, there are 1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:28.880 a number of accident fell all the way to the bottom. 1:09:28.920 --> 1:09:32.840 Based on one act. Uh Billy Squire put out a 1:09:32.920 --> 1:09:36.479 video where he's dancing in pink on bent literally killed 1:09:36.520 --> 1:09:40.360 his career. Peter Frampton played to his younger demo with 1:09:40.479 --> 1:09:43.600 am and you couldn't sell records for years, maybe not 1:09:43.720 --> 1:09:46.920 even since, although he put out some good records. But 1:09:47.080 --> 1:09:52.120 you have somebody like Taylor Swift does this in front 1:09:52.160 --> 1:09:56.679 of worldwide audience, there's no effect. Lady Gaga. Lady Gaga 1:09:56.760 --> 1:10:00.960 had a number of hits, then had one stiff after another. 1:10:01.800 --> 1:10:05.759 She was a media darling. She's singing with Tony Bennett, 1:10:05.800 --> 1:10:08.920 She's doing all this stuff. But in the record world, 1:10:09.520 --> 1:10:14.160 no success, certainly no hits. Ultimately, she had another hit 1:10:14.280 --> 1:10:18.639 with Stars Born, but she didn't lose status whatsoever. People 1:10:18.680 --> 1:10:21.360 continue to go to her shows in the same number. 1:10:21.600 --> 1:10:26.479 This is something that never happened previously. They are too 1:10:26.479 --> 1:10:30.040 big to fail, is the conclusion I would take from it. 1:10:30.080 --> 1:10:33.680 But it's it's obviously because it transcends music. And you know, 1:10:33.720 --> 1:10:38.480 Taylor Swift, her fans, she can't do wrong. The Pitchfork 1:10:38.600 --> 1:10:42.599 writer who gave her album a mediocre, not even a mediocre. 1:10:42.680 --> 1:10:45.920 She got a good review in Pitchfork and it wasn't great, 1:10:46.080 --> 1:10:48.799 and so the fans all, you know, sent death threats 1:10:48.800 --> 1:10:52.240 to the writer. So these fan communities are huge. They're 1:10:52.280 --> 1:10:57.200 never going to you know, abandoned their stars because of 1:10:57.240 --> 1:11:01.160 one misstep. And then the celebrity compl ux is not 1:11:01.200 --> 1:11:05.120 going to abandon these people because they're they're gold and 1:11:05.160 --> 1:11:08.360 they're there. They make a lot of money from being celebrities. 1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:10.080 So once you get someone up there, you're not going 1:11:10.120 --> 1:11:13.920 to necessarily try to take them down. So that's a 1:11:13.920 --> 1:11:15.200 lot of it, I mean a lot of it's just 1:11:15.280 --> 1:11:17.880 that it's moved out of the realm of music. People 1:11:17.880 --> 1:11:22.759 are not looking at these people as contingent music stars 1:11:22.800 --> 1:11:25.639 who I like as long as they're providing the music 1:11:25.680 --> 1:11:29.800 that I like. They're being treated like royalty and and 1:11:30.240 --> 1:11:33.240 you know, celebrities and almost utility is like, you know, 1:11:33.479 --> 1:11:35.240 what would what would it be like to live in 1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:37.599 a world without Lady Gaga? Nobody can imagine it, So 1:11:37.680 --> 1:11:39.800 everyone just keeps him moving forward no matter what she does. 1:11:47.000 --> 1:11:52.840 Let's talked about moving pictures, visual entertainment. So we have 1:11:52.880 --> 1:11:57.960 a conventional cable world, conventional movie world. Netflix moves to 1:11:58.080 --> 1:12:02.879 streaming their streaming old sit arms. They air House of Cards. 1:12:04.360 --> 1:12:07.000 It's just the Sopranos. A little bit different for HBO 1:12:07.000 --> 1:12:10.719 because there were some shows before that. They air House 1:12:10.840 --> 1:12:16.200 of Cards. The whole paradigm shifts. He made for an 1:12:16.240 --> 1:12:22.280 adult audience, intelligent, not talking down to the audience. They 1:12:22.360 --> 1:12:28.479 continue to make work like this. Then the movie business, 1:12:28.720 --> 1:12:30.400 there's a few things to go on the movie business. 1:12:30.439 --> 1:12:35.559 They were playing for worldwide hits, etcetera. But suddenly that 1:12:35.640 --> 1:12:39.720 type of work becomes streaming television. It's not movies, and 1:12:39.840 --> 1:12:46.400 movies are these tent bowl hopeful blockbusters based on superhero characters. 1:12:46.800 --> 1:12:52.000 Now the latest thing is these streaming companies are cutting 1:12:52.040 --> 1:12:55.559 off the edges, even though they were built by these edges. 1:12:56.479 --> 1:13:00.600 And of course it's the completely left field that resonate, 1:13:02.120 --> 1:13:06.680 the Korean TV hits being the number one example of that. 1:13:06.760 --> 1:13:13.400 So what is happening now? So obviously, these platforms start 1:13:14.520 --> 1:13:17.840 with a relatively sophisticated consumer, because who's gonna, you know, 1:13:18.160 --> 1:13:23.040 purchase a Netflix description so early, and so you start 1:13:23.120 --> 1:13:25.400 with some tastes that are going to appeal to adults 1:13:25.400 --> 1:13:29.360 and cetificate sophisticated adults and people with education and in 1:13:29.400 --> 1:13:32.599 the professional creative classes. At some point you have to 1:13:32.800 --> 1:13:36.320 start making programming that's gonna appeal to everybody, and it's 1:13:36.320 --> 1:13:39.439 going to be less challenging. At the same time, you know, 1:13:39.479 --> 1:13:44.040 Netflix in particular has such an incredibly gigantic catalog, almost 1:13:44.120 --> 1:13:47.200 you know, too large sometimes where I feel like I 1:13:47.240 --> 1:13:48.960 spend a night just looking at what to watch on 1:13:48.960 --> 1:13:53.479 Netflix rather than actually watching anything on Netflix. But uh so, 1:13:53.520 --> 1:13:56.559 then they also have all these Korean dramas, and what's 1:13:56.600 --> 1:14:02.240 interesting is the degree in which these ramas were made 1:14:02.280 --> 1:14:04.720 for an audience that was not I mean, they were 1:14:04.760 --> 1:14:08.720 not made for Netflix's gigantic American audience as far as 1:14:08.760 --> 1:14:10.799 I know, they were just made for a Korean audience. 1:14:10.800 --> 1:14:13.920 But there's something actually innovative and interesting about them, even 1:14:13.960 --> 1:14:16.559 even if they're they're conventional for Korea, those conventions are 1:14:16.600 --> 1:14:19.920 not known to us, and we enjoy it. And you know, 1:14:20.040 --> 1:14:22.519 if you go back to Gotenham Style too. I saw 1:14:22.600 --> 1:14:24.800 the video for Gottenam Style recently. I hadn't seen it 1:14:24.800 --> 1:14:27.719 in a while, and I was just struck by It's 1:14:27.840 --> 1:14:30.880 so many inside jokes that you only know if you 1:14:30.920 --> 1:14:32.840 live in Korea, and yet that was such a big 1:14:32.880 --> 1:14:35.519 song because there was something about it that just felt 1:14:35.560 --> 1:14:39.759 fresh because we're not exposed to so many of those things, 1:14:40.320 --> 1:14:42.559 and even if we don't get at all, it just 1:14:42.600 --> 1:14:46.759 feels like something new. And so if your Choices are 1:14:47.200 --> 1:14:50.280 another reality show that follows the exact same conventions of 1:14:50.280 --> 1:14:53.639 every reality show just with a twist or this new 1:14:53.680 --> 1:14:57.080 thing that feels, uh, it's just like something you've never 1:14:57.080 --> 1:15:01.839 seen before, then you know people people still do want novelty, 1:15:02.120 --> 1:15:04.840 and that that that can't be denied. I think that 1:15:04.920 --> 1:15:09.280 they just want novelty that is not too not too different, 1:15:09.360 --> 1:15:12.840 not to pretends not to um difficult. I mean, these 1:15:12.840 --> 1:15:16.160 creative shows are often very melodramatic. It's not like they're 1:15:16.600 --> 1:15:19.439 you know, some higher form of avant garde art. But 1:15:19.479 --> 1:15:23.479 they're just different enough that people are willing to watch them. 1:15:23.479 --> 1:15:25.200 And then if they hear somebody say it's good, I'm 1:15:25.200 --> 1:15:27.759 sure that word of mouth has been really really important 1:15:27.760 --> 1:15:30.599 for them as well. Um, but it's interesting. It's interesting 1:15:30.680 --> 1:15:33.280 lesson that Netflix has tried to make things on the 1:15:33.360 --> 1:15:36.519 high end is trying to make things very some you know, 1:15:36.600 --> 1:15:40.719 really unintelligent programs as well, and then it's maybe stuff 1:15:40.720 --> 1:15:43.360 in the middle that's doing the best. Let's talk about 1:15:43.360 --> 1:15:46.200 this stagnation. Let me give you an approach it from 1:15:46.240 --> 1:15:51.719 a different angle. I am someone with musical talent. Used 1:15:51.760 --> 1:15:57.640 to be sixties and seventies. You have these acts predicated 1:15:57.680 --> 1:16:01.240 on something completely different. They this is what we're gonna do. 1:16:01.400 --> 1:16:04.400 We're gonna stick with it until it broke through. Great 1:16:04.439 --> 1:16:09.000 example being Roxy Music Queen not being a bad example either. 1:16:09.439 --> 1:16:12.360 They stuck it out, they stuck to their guns and 1:16:12.479 --> 1:16:18.360 it worked. Whereas today someone might say that's not gonna 1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:20.080 work at all. I just have to imitate what other 1:16:20.120 --> 1:16:22.679 people are doing. What advice would you have for those people. 1:16:29.160 --> 1:16:32.639 It does seem bleak if you're going to do something 1:16:33.880 --> 1:16:37.479 that is not immediately understood, and it does just seem 1:16:37.560 --> 1:16:41.040 like consumers of media have less patience than they used to. 1:16:41.680 --> 1:16:46.960 And I was thinking about as a kid, I saw 1:16:47.240 --> 1:16:50.320 Here Comes Your Man by the Pixies on MTV. I 1:16:50.320 --> 1:16:52.559 told my brother to get the record. He's older than me, 1:16:53.320 --> 1:16:55.519 and then and that record do a little is weird. 1:16:55.560 --> 1:16:57.200 I mean, as a nine year old or ten year old, 1:16:57.200 --> 1:16:59.800 that was a really strange record. I did not understand it. 1:17:00.160 --> 1:17:02.559 But after hearing at once and saying that was really strange, 1:17:02.600 --> 1:17:04.679 I don't understand it. I just listen to it again 1:17:05.280 --> 1:17:08.479 and listen to it again, and probably the tenth time 1:17:08.479 --> 1:17:10.640 did not understand that record and still listen to it. 1:17:11.080 --> 1:17:14.120 I just can't imagine anyone these days being surrounded by 1:17:14.160 --> 1:17:16.880 so many things they immediately understand that they're going to 1:17:16.960 --> 1:17:20.000 keep going back to something they don't, and nothing has 1:17:20.000 --> 1:17:23.280 the legitimacy to force you also to say you have 1:17:23.320 --> 1:17:24.720 to listen to this even if you don't get it 1:17:24.800 --> 1:17:28.360 the first time. UM. Maybe The Wire. I I felt 1:17:28.360 --> 1:17:30.880 like The Wire the first couple episodes were quite slow, 1:17:30.960 --> 1:17:32.479 and you had to really push through and then I 1:17:32.520 --> 1:17:34.479 got good. And but you had a million people telling 1:17:34.520 --> 1:17:36.360 you got to believe that The Wire is the greatest 1:17:36.400 --> 1:17:39.200 television show of all time. Keep going. And so for 1:17:39.280 --> 1:17:41.519 a new band, if you don't have a bunch of 1:17:41.560 --> 1:17:45.040 critics telling listeners, you may not get roxy music, but 1:17:45.160 --> 1:17:47.479 keep listening because you're gonna get it at some point. 1:17:48.280 --> 1:17:51.000 And you have so many other distractions, and you have 1:17:51.040 --> 1:17:55.799 so many other other um options, and on Spotify it's literally, 1:17:55.920 --> 1:17:58.559 you know, a million albums or click away. I don't 1:17:58.600 --> 1:18:02.080 know how you keep going. Uh So, the only advice 1:18:02.160 --> 1:18:03.800 I would give somebody is, you know, you would have 1:18:03.840 --> 1:18:06.559 to find the community that really believes in that sound 1:18:07.000 --> 1:18:09.880 and then hope that that community grows and that community 1:18:09.960 --> 1:18:17.280 becomes influential on the rest of society. But it's really difficult. 1:18:17.640 --> 1:18:21.880 And uh we we had so much cultural progress in 1:18:21.880 --> 1:18:25.680 the twentieth century because people were patient, and there's just 1:18:25.760 --> 1:18:27.960 no structure at the moment that makes us more patient. 1:18:28.160 --> 1:18:30.800 And we all we're all have this kind of take 1:18:31.200 --> 1:18:35.599 a step back from the Internet to regain our attention spans. 1:18:36.280 --> 1:18:38.720 And I've heard from so many people that when they 1:18:38.720 --> 1:18:40.439 watch a movie, they just look at the clock and 1:18:40.479 --> 1:18:44.599 say how many minutes left? Uh um. And I love 1:18:44.640 --> 1:18:46.800 reading books because it forces me to, you know, take 1:18:46.840 --> 1:18:49.240 a step back and and really push through on something. 1:18:49.680 --> 1:18:53.920 But it it takes discipline, and I don't remember having 1:18:53.920 --> 1:18:56.360 to have a sense of discipline as a nine year 1:18:56.360 --> 1:19:00.360 old listening to a bunch of weird records I didn't understand. Okay, 1:19:00.520 --> 1:19:05.920 and let's go back to the fast cycle on the internet, 1:19:06.320 --> 1:19:10.080 with memes and things being burned out so fast that 1:19:10.120 --> 1:19:14.840 there's no traction on new things. That is correct. I mean, so, 1:19:14.920 --> 1:19:17.679 as I said before, you have culture. You have things 1:19:17.680 --> 1:19:19.680 that feel like culture that happened every day, like a 1:19:19.840 --> 1:19:22.639 meme feels like a cultural moment. But you're not going 1:19:22.680 --> 1:19:25.000 to take that meme and make your identity about it, 1:19:25.400 --> 1:19:29.000 because number one, it's pretty silly to start with, it's 1:19:29.000 --> 1:19:32.559 pretty lowest common denominator to start with. But also because 1:19:32.760 --> 1:19:34.720 the whole point of a meme is to be in 1:19:34.800 --> 1:19:38.839 and out of it, to get in on it's first, 1:19:40.040 --> 1:19:43.599 you know, our or day, but then to not linger 1:19:43.680 --> 1:19:45.880 on it. And then that's not true for music or films. 1:19:45.880 --> 1:19:48.680 And the whole point of being into pulp fiction was 1:19:48.760 --> 1:19:50.880 that you watched it once and then you went around 1:19:50.880 --> 1:19:53.519 for years talking about how pulp Fiction was your favorite movie, 1:19:53.600 --> 1:19:57.080 so you know, and it's it feels silly comparing a 1:19:57.160 --> 1:19:59.160 meme to a motion picture. I mean, these are also 1:19:59.280 --> 1:20:01.640 just different things. But if if we are entertained on 1:20:01.680 --> 1:20:05.679 a daily basis through ten memes, you know, ten great 1:20:05.720 --> 1:20:10.600 tweets for videos, you can get through the day entertained. 1:20:10.800 --> 1:20:13.400 You don't need much more than that. And that also 1:20:13.439 --> 1:20:15.559 crowds out the time you may have used, you know, 1:20:15.600 --> 1:20:19.400 reading a book or watching a film, or if it's 1:20:19.439 --> 1:20:21.680 just a TV show that's you know, set up the 1:20:21.720 --> 1:20:25.960 thirty minute episodes that are basically created so that when 1:20:25.960 --> 1:20:27.880 you reach the end of the thirty minutes, you just 1:20:27.880 --> 1:20:31.600 want to watch the next one and you binge watch it. Um, 1:20:31.600 --> 1:20:33.880 maybe that TV show is something you you put as 1:20:33.880 --> 1:20:35.640 your identity, but it's much more likely you just go 1:20:35.680 --> 1:20:37.120 to a friend and say, oh, you gotta watch the show. 1:20:37.120 --> 1:20:39.080 It's great, and then you don't really think about it again. 1:20:39.560 --> 1:20:44.639 So the it's the overabundance and the speed of all 1:20:44.720 --> 1:20:48.400 of this culture means we're less likely to bring it 1:20:48.439 --> 1:20:51.360 into our identities and think about it as an authentic 1:20:51.439 --> 1:20:55.759 part of our lives. And that was so critical for culture, 1:20:55.760 --> 1:20:59.240 and that's what gives culture the weight to make it 1:20:59.240 --> 1:21:05.439 seem like a important, iconic, historic event. That's the reason 1:21:06.439 --> 1:21:09.519 Nirvana is not just a bunch of great albums. It 1:21:09.600 --> 1:21:12.839 was some sort of social movement where everyone started dressing 1:21:12.840 --> 1:21:18.439 in a different way and everybody had different values and uh, 1:21:18.600 --> 1:21:21.799 you know believe that corporate music sucks, and were shirts 1:21:21.840 --> 1:21:24.280 that said loser. And you know, it wasn't just the shirt, 1:21:24.360 --> 1:21:28.160 it was a whole ethos. I don't think any culture 1:21:28.200 --> 1:21:32.400 at the moment is quite changing our values or making 1:21:32.439 --> 1:21:36.439 people associate themselves with some sort of new movement in 1:21:36.479 --> 1:21:39.639 the way that culture used to. You live in Japan, 1:21:39.840 --> 1:21:44.280 how come I studied Japanese in college. Um I had 1:21:44.280 --> 1:21:48.840 spent two summers here, which was weird. I had studied Japanese, 1:21:48.880 --> 1:21:52.760 I did East Asian Studies at Harvard College and spent 1:21:52.840 --> 1:22:00.360 two summers in Tokyo. Discovered Japanese consumer is him and 1:22:00.520 --> 1:22:02.840 especially street fashion, which at the time, you know, this 1:22:03.000 --> 1:22:04.880 this idea of waiting three hours to buy a T 1:22:05.000 --> 1:22:07.360 shirt and then you know, for seventy dollars and then 1:22:07.400 --> 1:22:10.280 reselling the T shirt a year later for three that 1:22:10.320 --> 1:22:12.640 has now become a global phenomenon at the time is 1:22:12.680 --> 1:22:16.360 really Japan only. I ended up writing my senior thesis 1:22:16.400 --> 1:22:22.920 about that the whole world and how to market that 1:22:23.120 --> 1:22:26.760 kind of scarce good that it really isn't scarce, it's 1:22:26.800 --> 1:22:29.600 kind of fake scarcity. I came back to get a 1:22:29.640 --> 1:22:34.439 master's degree in UH consumer behavior marketing, wanting to look 1:22:34.479 --> 1:22:38.479 more into this, like why did Japanese consumers respond to 1:22:38.520 --> 1:22:42.240 this kind of marketing, and ended up studying the pop 1:22:42.320 --> 1:22:47.360 music world instead, because there weren't very good numbers in 1:22:47.400 --> 1:22:49.559 the fashion world, but the pop music world. There had 1:22:49.600 --> 1:22:52.040 been the stream of research in the seventies where people 1:22:52.080 --> 1:22:54.040 looked at the billboard charts and tried to figure out 1:22:54.120 --> 1:22:57.560 whether the industrial organization of the music industry, what the 1:22:58.000 --> 1:23:02.680 concentration of companies, whether that had an effect on the 1:23:02.680 --> 1:23:05.040 innovation in the marketplace. And there's all these different papers 1:23:05.080 --> 1:23:07.599 from the seventies and eighties about this. They're quite interesting. 1:23:07.600 --> 1:23:09.559 And I took that research and applied it to Japan 1:23:10.080 --> 1:23:13.599 to show that these artists, these artists management companies, many 1:23:13.640 --> 1:23:17.720 of whom are associated with organized crime UH and just 1:23:18.320 --> 1:23:22.719 have basically this octopus like grip on the entertainment complex 1:23:22.760 --> 1:23:25.240 and they make it where you really can't have new 1:23:25.320 --> 1:23:27.280 artists come out or the only new artists can come 1:23:27.280 --> 1:23:31.160 out of these companies. And so that that link between 1:23:31.520 --> 1:23:35.040 monopoly in the market and innovation was something I was 1:23:35.120 --> 1:23:37.599 quite interested in. And then I've just been in Japan 1:23:37.640 --> 1:23:40.479 since then because it's it's a great place to live 1:23:40.520 --> 1:23:43.680 and and for a while it was, you know, interesting 1:23:43.720 --> 1:23:45.680 to be here because it's not the United States, But 1:23:45.840 --> 1:23:48.120 these days it feels like a calmer alternative to the 1:23:48.160 --> 1:23:52.360 United States. Okay, Uh, there's a lot of people who 1:23:52.400 --> 1:23:56.439 say that the Japanese or racist. As an Anglo in Japan, 1:23:56.600 --> 1:24:06.720 do you feel that, um, Japan is very very focused 1:24:06.800 --> 1:24:11.160 on doing things the right way, and if you're an outsider, 1:24:11.240 --> 1:24:12.639 you don't know how to do things the right way 1:24:12.640 --> 1:24:16.080 and you're judge pretty harshly. There is a big difference though, 1:24:16.160 --> 1:24:23.840 in being a Western, especially male, especially white person, you're 1:24:23.920 --> 1:24:28.080 exempt from any of those things and you are treated 1:24:28.160 --> 1:24:32.880 relatively well. Um, if you are a Chinese immigrant, if 1:24:32.880 --> 1:24:36.960 you're an Indonesian immigrant, and you may look to a 1:24:37.040 --> 1:24:39.240 Japanese person like your Japanese and they won't know necessarily 1:24:39.240 --> 1:24:41.320 that you're an immigrant. The expectation on you is to 1:24:41.360 --> 1:24:44.559 perform perfectly like a Japanese person, and there is quite 1:24:44.640 --> 1:24:51.680 a lot of a marginalization of those communities, and it 1:24:51.720 --> 1:24:53.880 can be a much harder experience. So I can't I 1:24:53.920 --> 1:24:58.200 can't extrapolate my personal experience as a white male from 1:24:58.240 --> 1:25:00.519 the United States who learned Japanese and say that all 1:25:00.560 --> 1:25:03.160 foreigners are treated this way. I think for me in particular, 1:25:03.680 --> 1:25:06.400 it has been fine. I'm from Princical Florida, and I 1:25:06.760 --> 1:25:10.479 didn't feel like I was, uh, the same as everybody 1:25:10.479 --> 1:25:12.800 in princecal Florida. I'm pretty used to not feeling the 1:25:12.880 --> 1:25:16.559 same as people. But um, I think Japan also, in 1:25:16.600 --> 1:25:21.200 the last even five years, has really globalized where Tokyo 1:25:21.240 --> 1:25:26.000 and in particular, Uh, there's Englishman news everywhere, and there 1:25:26.000 --> 1:25:28.160 are lots and lots of people from all over the world, 1:25:28.320 --> 1:25:30.880 and it's just it's more of an international city than 1:25:30.920 --> 1:25:34.160 it's ever been. And so personally this isn't a problem 1:25:34.200 --> 1:25:37.000 for me, but I can't speak for everybody. And I 1:25:37.040 --> 1:25:39.560 see a wedding ring, Are you married to an American? 1:25:39.640 --> 1:25:43.559 Are you married to a Japanese person? Japanese? So how 1:25:43.560 --> 1:25:47.400 did you meet this Japanese person? Uh? We were both 1:25:48.000 --> 1:25:54.240 making music into music Okay, you wrote this book, you 1:25:54.280 --> 1:25:57.000 wrote a previous book. Is this how you make your 1:25:57.000 --> 1:26:00.120 living or you have to do other things? Okay, how 1:26:00.120 --> 1:26:01.320 do you make your life? I have to do I 1:26:01.320 --> 1:26:03.600 have to do many other things. So you may be 1:26:03.680 --> 1:26:06.240 surprised that writing a book about the history of men's 1:26:06.240 --> 1:26:10.760 fashion in Japan is not a career. So yeah, I 1:26:10.760 --> 1:26:13.160 mean my I've been writing for a really long time 1:26:13.720 --> 1:26:16.439 and quite passionate about it, but I do a lot 1:26:16.479 --> 1:26:22.840 of work in marketing and communications and branding and those areas. Okay, 1:26:23.520 --> 1:26:27.280 what motivated you to write this book? What expectations do 1:26:27.360 --> 1:26:30.280 you have of it? And how do you feel about 1:26:30.400 --> 1:26:33.640 some of the negative reviews. It's not like they're negative, 1:26:34.200 --> 1:26:40.000 but they want to argue with your theories. Is that jealousy? Well? 1:26:40.200 --> 1:26:46.920 And how do you metabolize all that? What motivated me was, 1:26:48.280 --> 1:26:54.240 I again have believed there are these principles or laws 1:26:54.320 --> 1:26:56.519 or however you want to explain them that guide culture 1:26:56.520 --> 1:26:59.599 and cultural change. And I've always been frustrated that there 1:26:59.640 --> 1:27:01.400 was not a single book you could just pick up 1:27:01.479 --> 1:27:04.320 and understand and and read and say this is what 1:27:04.520 --> 1:27:07.280 how people behave and this is why culture changes. And 1:27:07.320 --> 1:27:11.080 so I've been obsessed with that topic for twenty years, 1:27:12.240 --> 1:27:17.160 the interplay between consumers and media and brands and artists 1:27:17.160 --> 1:27:18.920 and how all these things work together. And I just 1:27:18.960 --> 1:27:23.200 wanted to put all of the theories that already exist, 1:27:24.520 --> 1:27:28.320 take them, synthesize them, and give them to someone in 1:27:28.320 --> 1:27:31.000 a digestible format. And that's where it came from. And 1:27:31.840 --> 1:27:33.880 I am very open to the idea that there are 1:27:33.880 --> 1:27:36.400 mistakes and that there are things that need to be adjusted. 1:27:36.560 --> 1:27:38.559 And for me, in some ways, we can't even have 1:27:38.640 --> 1:27:42.320 that discussion until you start with something. You need to 1:27:42.360 --> 1:27:44.599 start with. Here is the model that I think exists. 1:27:45.000 --> 1:27:48.559 And then there are critiques of saying, actually you miss this, 1:27:48.840 --> 1:27:51.240 or this effect maybe less than you think it is, 1:27:51.360 --> 1:27:53.800 or things have changed. So I agree with all that. 1:27:54.240 --> 1:27:58.200 I am very open to criticism in general. I'm very 1:27:58.240 --> 1:28:02.240 open to good faith criticism. I think what is always 1:28:02.240 --> 1:28:08.439 disappointing with um this kind of criticism. And and again, 1:28:08.479 --> 1:28:10.960 you know, my first book was about Japanese fashion and 1:28:11.040 --> 1:28:13.639 so niche that no one was going to say anything 1:28:13.680 --> 1:28:15.280 mean about it. They were just going to ignore it 1:28:15.320 --> 1:28:17.639 if they didn't have anything nice to say. So when 1:28:17.640 --> 1:28:21.719 you write a book big and called cultural culture, sorry 1:28:21.920 --> 1:28:25.360 called status and culture. You're just opening yourself up for attacks. 1:28:25.400 --> 1:28:27.400 So this is my fault. I I have no one 1:28:27.400 --> 1:28:32.040 to blame about myself, but so many of the critiques 1:28:32.080 --> 1:28:35.639 are in bad faith in that you have the classic 1:28:35.680 --> 1:28:37.600 critique of you did not write the book that I 1:28:37.680 --> 1:28:40.360 thought you should have written, and the critique it as 1:28:40.360 --> 1:28:42.040 if you should have read it that way, that this 1:28:42.080 --> 1:28:44.760 book is not a book about how rich people today live, 1:28:44.880 --> 1:28:47.400 which is not a book about you have. The critiques 1:28:47.680 --> 1:28:51.960 of this book is fine, but it didn't reference my book, 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:55.320 and therefore it's suspect. I've gotten that from a pretty 1:28:55.360 --> 1:28:59.639 distinguished economists, which was quite annoying. And then you get 1:28:59.680 --> 1:29:04.120 things where there's just a disagreement. Um. Virginia Apostural, who 1:29:04.160 --> 1:29:06.439 I respect quite a quite a lot, just reviewed it 1:29:06.479 --> 1:29:09.639 for then the Wall Street Journal, and we just don't 1:29:09.680 --> 1:29:13.679 agree on, you know, the nature of aesthetics. She believes 1:29:13.680 --> 1:29:17.120 so much of aesthetics are about pleasure and joy. I 1:29:17.200 --> 1:29:20.400 totally agree. People love culture. The reason the culture proliferates 1:29:20.400 --> 1:29:22.680 this because we love it. I just I'm trying to 1:29:22.720 --> 1:29:25.519 look at why do we love certain aesthetics at all? 1:29:25.840 --> 1:29:29.320 Why do the Beatles hate the mop top? And then put, 1:29:29.400 --> 1:29:31.240 you know, then wear the mop top, and then everybody 1:29:31.240 --> 1:29:33.320 loves the mop top. You have to look at how 1:29:33.320 --> 1:29:35.640 aesthetics change over time, and status is the force that 1:29:35.760 --> 1:29:39.240 changes them. It doesn't mean that people are always status 1:29:39.280 --> 1:29:42.759 seeking everything they do, but status is this invisible grammar 1:29:42.840 --> 1:29:46.160 behind culture that we have to look at. So I 1:29:46.200 --> 1:29:49.080 think some of the critiques are are fine and fair. 1:29:50.160 --> 1:29:52.760 What's annoying just about how how this process works is 1:29:52.800 --> 1:29:55.720 that you're a very whiny author if somebody critiques you, 1:29:55.760 --> 1:29:57.360 and then you go on and say, well, you're wrong 1:29:57.400 --> 1:29:59.240 because of these things, and so you have to be, 1:29:59.520 --> 1:30:02.559 you know, pull light and mannered about the whole thing. 1:30:02.840 --> 1:30:04.760 But I think some of the critiques are just an 1:30:04.760 --> 1:30:07.040 invitation to dialogue. I mean, I would love to answer 1:30:07.200 --> 1:30:10.559 the criticisms because they're not gotcha, like, oh my gosh, 1:30:10.560 --> 1:30:12.599 I never consider this. I feel like I answer these 1:30:12.600 --> 1:30:15.600 in the book and people may not quite get the nuances. 1:30:16.520 --> 1:30:19.599 So for me, it's just it's frustrating because I want 1:30:19.640 --> 1:30:21.960 to speak with these people in that a conversation, but 1:30:22.000 --> 1:30:24.160 that's not the way it works. It's kind of forever. 1:30:24.280 --> 1:30:26.160 The New York Times says this, and that's what The 1:30:26.160 --> 1:30:28.479 New York Times said, but at the same time, you know, 1:30:28.600 --> 1:30:31.439 the revenge of authors and publishers is then we just 1:30:31.640 --> 1:30:34.840 edit out all the negative things from the review and 1:30:34.880 --> 1:30:37.639 then write fascinating Times and put it on the back 1:30:37.680 --> 1:30:42.240 of a book, so you know, authors laugh last maybe Okay. 1:30:42.640 --> 1:30:45.800 What most people don't know is the book business is 1:30:45.880 --> 1:30:51.320 really provincial. No, it's not not modernized in many ways. 1:30:51.400 --> 1:30:53.920 But what I really saying. You see the number one 1:30:54.040 --> 1:30:57.880 best seller, well, let's make it better number five. It 1:30:58.000 --> 1:31:02.320 is amazing how few books the books actually sell absolutely 1:31:02.800 --> 1:31:07.000 so has the book had more or less impact than 1:31:07.120 --> 1:31:10.320 you wanted it to have in terms of which relevantive 1:31:10.360 --> 1:31:14.400 positive or negative? It's still too early because it's only 1:31:14.439 --> 1:31:19.360 been out for a couple of weeks. Um the book 1:31:19.400 --> 1:31:21.800 needs to be read, is the problem. So a lot 1:31:21.800 --> 1:31:26.639 of nonfiction books literally will be one single idea. There's 1:31:26.680 --> 1:31:30.400 this theory of the minimally counterintuitive idea that these are sticky, 1:31:30.439 --> 1:31:32.840 that if things are too intuitive, it's not interesting. If 1:31:32.880 --> 1:31:35.400 things are too counterintuitive, they're not interesting. But if you 1:31:35.439 --> 1:31:38.760 have this minimally counterintuitive idea, like if I wrote a 1:31:38.760 --> 1:31:41.720 book that said, did you know that your gut bacteria 1:31:41.920 --> 1:31:45.120 determines your personality? You'd be like, well, that's I didn't 1:31:45.360 --> 1:31:47.479 think that, but okay, I'll read a book about it. 1:31:47.520 --> 1:31:50.280 But that book will then basically take that idea and 1:31:50.840 --> 1:31:53.479 you know, extrapolate it out for three under pages triple space. 1:31:53.640 --> 1:31:56.040 That's what a normal nonfiction book does. And so when 1:31:56.080 --> 1:31:57.800 you read about or hear about it, you basically the 1:31:57.840 --> 1:31:59.439 main idea and you can go to a cocktail party 1:31:59.439 --> 1:32:01.679 and say, oh, I just read this book about got 1:32:01.720 --> 1:32:06.880 bacteria determining your personality. Uh my, I did not follow 1:32:06.920 --> 1:32:09.640 the rules of this provincial book market. I wrote a 1:32:09.640 --> 1:32:12.719 book that has way too many things in it. And 1:32:12.920 --> 1:32:15.040 when I'm trying to again, I'm trying to make a 1:32:15.080 --> 1:32:18.840 field manual slash handbook for people to understand how status works, 1:32:18.840 --> 1:32:22.240 how culture works, and take those lessons with them. And 1:32:23.200 --> 1:32:26.920 the way it's summarized often doesn't quite explain my position 1:32:27.040 --> 1:32:29.639 or it simplifies it too much. And so what I'm 1:32:29.640 --> 1:32:31.560 hoping is people read it and they start using the 1:32:31.640 --> 1:32:34.080 language of the book to describe things. And again, even 1:32:34.120 --> 1:32:37.000 if people disagree with it and they have to clarify 1:32:37.120 --> 1:32:39.200 their position using the language of the book, I feel 1:32:39.200 --> 1:32:40.720 like that would be a great success, but it's going 1:32:40.760 --> 1:32:43.479 to take a little bit more time. It's not I 1:32:43.520 --> 1:32:46.040 didn't play the game the way I was supposed to do, 1:32:46.320 --> 1:32:49.960 in which I noticed in in hindsight. Um, I just 1:32:50.120 --> 1:32:51.840 I wrote the book that I thought needed to exist, 1:32:51.920 --> 1:33:01.800 and we'll see what happens. Okay, let's pull the lens 1:33:01.880 --> 1:33:10.559 way back. Can one say that music, even movies and 1:33:10.680 --> 1:33:16.160 TV have been eclipsed by politics because we all have 1:33:16.280 --> 1:33:18.599 a hand in it and are affected and we can 1:33:18.640 --> 1:33:21.720 take a side and we can argue about it. Or 1:33:21.760 --> 1:33:25.559 does politics just is that become the main dominant force 1:33:25.600 --> 1:33:28.360 in culture or is it just a constant on the side. 1:33:29.600 --> 1:33:33.320 I think in American culture, politics is everything, and and 1:33:33.360 --> 1:33:37.519 cultural politics is often used as a dismissive term that 1:33:37.520 --> 1:33:42.479 that's just cultural politics. But culture has become political because, 1:33:43.000 --> 1:33:47.639 especially in a world of mass culture and these huge 1:33:47.680 --> 1:33:51.240 cultural markets, who makes the money from the matters, and 1:33:51.280 --> 1:33:56.960 the ideas in the hit movies and books matter, and 1:33:57.960 --> 1:34:02.280 people are quite sensitive about it, and appropriation matters. You know, 1:34:02.280 --> 1:34:06.800 if if a marginalized group creates these forms out of 1:34:06.840 --> 1:34:10.679 their marginalization, and then the majority culture steals those ideas 1:34:10.680 --> 1:34:14.400 and profits from them, that is a political issue. Status 1:34:14.920 --> 1:34:19.559 comes with privileges. Status determines the quality of your life, 1:34:20.360 --> 1:34:25.640 and status determines how resources are distributed across society. So 1:34:25.680 --> 1:34:28.360 if culture plays a role in who gets status, which 1:34:28.360 --> 1:34:33.120 it does, then people really focus on culture and they 1:34:33.120 --> 1:34:36.200 think about it, and so it's inevitable the culture becomes 1:34:36.200 --> 1:34:39.559 political in this era. And also when you get to 1:34:41.120 --> 1:34:46.000 the dominant form of culture on the sophisticated side, being omnivorism, 1:34:46.000 --> 1:34:49.760 which says high and low are both equally valid, you 1:34:50.000 --> 1:34:55.240 stop having kind of avant garde battles between uh, abstract 1:34:55.320 --> 1:34:59.400 expressionism is the final form of art, no pop art 1:34:59.520 --> 1:35:03.759 is it's you know, successor you stop battling about the 1:35:03.840 --> 1:35:08.439 form of art and the ideas and you start focusing 1:35:08.479 --> 1:35:12.000 more on, well, everything is kind of equally good. So 1:35:12.080 --> 1:35:15.679 the only thing that we're against is these provincial people 1:35:16.240 --> 1:35:18.559 who do not believe that everything is good. So so 1:35:18.680 --> 1:35:22.439 you have cosmopolitanism of believing that everything is good take 1:35:22.520 --> 1:35:24.639 over so much that the only thing to be against 1:35:24.640 --> 1:35:32.400 is anti cosmopolitanism, and so the entire cultural marketplace becomes 1:35:32.439 --> 1:35:40.719 a battle between kind of this pro omnivorism versus very 1:35:40.880 --> 1:35:45.120 parochial or provincial. My culture is the only right culture, 1:35:45.439 --> 1:35:48.360 and that just splits across political lines in the United States. 1:35:48.439 --> 1:35:51.599 I mean, it's that is a very blue, red state 1:35:52.040 --> 1:35:58.519 type divide, and it's it's just inevitable that culture has 1:35:58.600 --> 1:36:02.720 gone that direction. So um, I don't know what we 1:36:02.760 --> 1:36:05.600 can do about that, but as long as somebody is 1:36:05.640 --> 1:36:08.960 reviewing culture with those questions in mind. And then you 1:36:09.000 --> 1:36:11.919 also get to this, this artist has done a genius 1:36:11.960 --> 1:36:15.960 invention of these forms. But as a person there they 1:36:16.000 --> 1:36:18.080 believe in bad politics, and I don't want money going 1:36:18.080 --> 1:36:21.559 to them. What's very difficult for them to uh for 1:36:21.600 --> 1:36:25.640 people to support that at this moment. Well, let me clarify, 1:36:25.760 --> 1:36:29.880 how about Washington, D C. Trump people focusing on that 1:36:29.960 --> 1:36:33.800 for their identity or common at least Biden somebody on 1:36:33.840 --> 1:36:38.360 the other side. To what degree is that usurpd cultural 1:36:38.479 --> 1:36:44.200 power from the traditional music, movies, and television. I mean, 1:36:44.280 --> 1:36:46.200 I I've heard you talk about this, and I know 1:36:46.280 --> 1:36:48.120 you agree with that, and I agree with you. I 1:36:48.160 --> 1:36:51.400 think that that is the dominant form of identity creation 1:36:51.560 --> 1:36:53.559 at the moment. And but that but that again, I 1:36:53.600 --> 1:36:57.880 think these two things are related, which is if America 1:36:57.960 --> 1:37:01.160 is a struggle between this state ethos and a red 1:37:01.160 --> 1:37:05.520 state ethos, and that is playing out in politics and economics, 1:37:05.600 --> 1:37:09.080 and in all of these questions, it is bleeding into culture. 1:37:09.120 --> 1:37:12.440 But because culture is set up as omnivore versus anti omnivore, 1:37:12.479 --> 1:37:15.400 and blue is the omnivore side and anti omnivore is 1:37:15.439 --> 1:37:20.639 the red side, then that just makes it where all 1:37:20.680 --> 1:37:24.240 appreciation of art has to be filtered through the lens 1:37:24.320 --> 1:37:29.240 of those politics. Okay, so let's assume you're in the 1:37:29.560 --> 1:37:34.680 lower status group. Do people ever accept their status or 1:37:34.760 --> 1:37:39.080 they always saying, God, I want more status. So what's 1:37:39.120 --> 1:37:43.360 really important in any hierarchy for it to function is 1:37:43.520 --> 1:37:46.280 what's called status integrity. So there's the people at the 1:37:46.280 --> 1:37:48.400 bottom look up and they say, it makes sense why 1:37:48.439 --> 1:37:51.679 those people up there or have the status that they do. 1:37:51.960 --> 1:37:54.040 And if they believe in that integrity, they'll stay in 1:37:54.080 --> 1:37:56.680 the group even if they're low status. They'll believe my 1:37:56.840 --> 1:37:59.559 group will be successful, and the success of that group 1:37:59.560 --> 1:38:00.920 will be good for me, even if I'm at the 1:38:00.920 --> 1:38:05.360 bottom of it. Often, where people don't believe in that, 1:38:05.720 --> 1:38:09.760 and they understand that they could be higher status in 1:38:09.760 --> 1:38:12.559 any different group, they will leave. And so the rise 1:38:12.600 --> 1:38:14.880 of some cultures in the twentieth century is a lot 1:38:14.880 --> 1:38:17.840 of people saying I don't agree with these people at 1:38:17.840 --> 1:38:21.559 the top being the top. I'm going to leave and 1:38:21.640 --> 1:38:23.840 be a surfer or a biker or whatever it is, 1:38:23.880 --> 1:38:27.479 because those communities except me and I can be valued 1:38:27.479 --> 1:38:31.519 and esteemed for these interests and these values I already have. 1:38:31.600 --> 1:38:34.800 They are different than the mainstream. UM. I think there's 1:38:34.840 --> 1:38:38.760 a lot of political turmoil in the United States at 1:38:38.800 --> 1:38:41.439 the moment in that the United States has ceased to 1:38:41.800 --> 1:38:44.680 feel like one status group that we're all in. And 1:38:44.680 --> 1:38:49.879 I think in particular, people who support Trump, they believe 1:38:50.040 --> 1:38:52.960 that their group should be at the top, and they 1:38:52.960 --> 1:38:56.880 don't believe that these these these coastal elites should have 1:38:56.920 --> 1:39:00.240 the status that they have, and that causes a lot 1:39:00.240 --> 1:39:05.000 of resentment and causes them to want ill things to 1:39:05.080 --> 1:39:10.400 happen to people on the coast. And uh, that is 1:39:11.720 --> 1:39:15.639 that lack of integrity has made these two groups split. 1:39:16.400 --> 1:39:20.799 And they you know, they do not accept that feeling 1:39:20.840 --> 1:39:24.720 of being in a lower status tier, whether they are 1:39:24.800 --> 1:39:28.360 or not, is all perceived. And at the moment they 1:39:28.360 --> 1:39:31.320 turn on the television, these people who support Trump turn 1:39:31.360 --> 1:39:33.400 on the television, they don't see themselves, they don't see 1:39:33.400 --> 1:39:38.160 their values, UM, and they're quite resentful about it, and 1:39:38.160 --> 1:39:40.000 it makes it makes a lot of sense. But you know, 1:39:40.040 --> 1:39:42.040 we do live in a world in which you're able 1:39:42.080 --> 1:39:44.280 to move to other groups as quickly as possible. But 1:39:44.320 --> 1:39:47.760 that splintering then makes it where there isn't really a 1:39:47.800 --> 1:39:51.640 mainstream core, or the mainstream core becomes one group and 1:39:51.640 --> 1:39:53.760 then the other group is simply trying to battle back 1:39:53.800 --> 1:39:58.000 and forth of taking back power. And in my lifetime, 1:39:58.040 --> 1:40:02.280 I've never seen soul much income inequality the American dream. 1:40:02.360 --> 1:40:03.960 You work hard, you can make it. You can work 1:40:04.000 --> 1:40:05.600 for the rest of your fucking life hard, You're not 1:40:05.600 --> 1:40:08.960 gonna have as much money you z Elon Musk. So 1:40:09.520 --> 1:40:13.479 to what you spoke earlier about the French Revolution, are 1:40:13.520 --> 1:40:18.800 we pushing towards some cataclysmic event that will reworder status 1:40:18.800 --> 1:40:22.080 as a result of income inequality? And maybe what we 1:40:22.080 --> 1:40:29.479 were just referencing the political differences, Um, I don't think so. 1:40:29.720 --> 1:40:33.600 I mean, I if you look at the trump Is 1:40:33.720 --> 1:40:38.920 movement as a backlash against the order, they are trying 1:40:38.960 --> 1:40:43.360 to restore some bizarro you know, twentieth century, nine fifties 1:40:43.479 --> 1:40:45.559 version of America that doesn't exist, in which you know 1:40:45.800 --> 1:40:47.200 a lot of people that move it would have not 1:40:47.240 --> 1:40:49.519 been particularly high status at that time either, but they 1:40:49.520 --> 1:40:55.360 felt like they it's better than where they are now. Um, 1:40:55.400 --> 1:40:58.120 so that group is incredibly reactionary. It does not seem 1:40:58.120 --> 1:41:01.439 like they want a revolution in a French Revolution since 1:41:02.360 --> 1:41:05.760 and I don't get a sense that there is a 1:41:05.800 --> 1:41:08.280 group like the bourgeoisie that's going to have a French 1:41:08.320 --> 1:41:11.280 Revolution and there's not an empowered group of proletariat that's 1:41:11.320 --> 1:41:14.280 going to overtake things in a Mark Marxist revolution either. 1:41:14.760 --> 1:41:18.960 So I don't know. I mean, this is this is 1:41:19.240 --> 1:41:22.120 probably beyond my pay grade, but it just does not 1:41:22.160 --> 1:41:27.280 seem like we're headed towards an actual reversal of what 1:41:27.479 --> 1:41:30.479 creates status in society. And because that's what these revolutions 1:41:30.520 --> 1:41:34.360 always are, there an attempt to change why the people 1:41:34.680 --> 1:41:37.200 at the highest levels have the status that they do. 1:41:37.280 --> 1:41:39.720 And so the French Revolution is saying it should not 1:41:39.760 --> 1:41:44.160 be about aristocracy at all, that you know, personal achievements 1:41:44.160 --> 1:41:46.120 should be the reason that people move to the top, 1:41:46.800 --> 1:41:48.519 and that idea is stuck with us even after the 1:41:48.520 --> 1:41:50.880 French Revolution, and you know, Marxist revolution is trying to 1:41:50.880 --> 1:41:54.200 say that capital itself should not be the reason people 1:41:54.200 --> 1:41:58.080 at the top. But I don't know. I don't I 1:41:58.080 --> 1:42:03.160 don't see any major tempt at at gigantic revolutionary status reversal. 1:42:03.880 --> 1:42:08.760 And looking into the future, we can certainly see changes. 1:42:09.000 --> 1:42:12.519 You know, the Internet era as opposed to the prior era, 1:42:13.120 --> 1:42:17.080 the fascination with devices in the first decade of this century, 1:42:17.320 --> 1:42:22.400 the triumph of software, the go go now the backlash. 1:42:22.560 --> 1:42:28.080 Are we going to be staying? What will this stagnancy 1:42:28.200 --> 1:42:32.240 in culture continue? Will it have to be a once 1:42:32.280 --> 1:42:34.559 in a lifetime event to change it? You know, what 1:42:34.600 --> 1:42:36.120 do you think is going to come down the pike? 1:42:38.560 --> 1:42:40.240 I don't know. I mean, one thing I do is 1:42:40.760 --> 1:42:45.920 do think and then talking to friends is people who 1:42:46.280 --> 1:42:50.240 are the most sophisticated cultural consumers and most interested in culture. 1:42:52.200 --> 1:42:55.040 We're on the internet early because the internet promised you 1:42:55.200 --> 1:42:58.439 the ability to have better distribution for the things you 1:42:58.520 --> 1:43:00.960 create and find people who have the same interest. So 1:43:01.000 --> 1:43:04.040 you have all these people into marginal things. You go online, 1:43:04.400 --> 1:43:07.760 suddenly there are all there's thousands of people interested in 1:43:07.800 --> 1:43:10.840 this and you can get new information. You can trade tapes. 1:43:10.920 --> 1:43:13.360 One of the earliest things I did on the Internet 1:43:13.360 --> 1:43:15.960 and the nineties was trade bootleg tapes with people. So 1:43:16.000 --> 1:43:18.599 you join a mailing list and then trade bootlegs back 1:43:18.640 --> 1:43:21.160 and forth. So my understanding of the Internet was that 1:43:21.200 --> 1:43:24.360 it was the thing for people with niche tastes and 1:43:24.400 --> 1:43:28.439 that was incredible and useful. And the Internet in the 1:43:28.520 --> 1:43:33.800 last decade has become mass culture is dominated by lowest combinator, 1:43:34.439 --> 1:43:37.639 lowest common dominator aesthetics. I mean cases, if you open 1:43:37.680 --> 1:43:42.120 TikTok and you haven't quite put in your personal preferences, 1:43:42.160 --> 1:43:44.200 as in you say I'm not interested in this, it 1:43:44.320 --> 1:43:48.640 sends you often very sexually provocative videos, but it just 1:43:48.680 --> 1:43:50.800 sends you things that make you want to close the 1:43:50.840 --> 1:43:54.360 app because they're not They're not really set up for 1:43:54.360 --> 1:43:58.120 for people who are used to the Internet being niche 1:43:58.200 --> 1:44:01.840 artistic things. So these platforms are based on the aesthetics 1:44:01.640 --> 1:44:05.720 of mass culture, and that original group of people on 1:44:05.760 --> 1:44:09.120 the Internet are quite disappointed with it, and and a 1:44:09.160 --> 1:44:12.320 lot of this idea of cultural stasis it comes from 1:44:12.479 --> 1:44:15.679 cultural elites. It does not come from you know, eighteen 1:44:15.760 --> 1:44:17.920 year old kids are not saying, oh wow, the culture stuck. 1:44:18.000 --> 1:44:20.280 They're fine, they're on TikTok, they're having a good time. 1:44:20.800 --> 1:44:24.280 So that group is disappointed with the direction the Internet 1:44:24.280 --> 1:44:28.680 has gone. And either the Internet splinters a little bit 1:44:28.680 --> 1:44:31.800 where you start getting these social media platforms only for 1:44:31.840 --> 1:44:34.840 that group that really have barriers to injury, so they 1:44:34.840 --> 1:44:37.479 don't become mass platforms. But that's not a particularly good 1:44:37.479 --> 1:44:39.879 business model because the business model of all these platforms 1:44:39.920 --> 1:44:42.240 is scale. So if your Instagram and you only have 1:44:42.240 --> 1:44:44.120 creative costs people, well that doesn't work. You've got to 1:44:44.320 --> 1:44:48.120 have everybody. You've got to bring everyone's mom on. So 1:44:48.960 --> 1:44:53.519 uh if if the money is made in lowest common 1:44:53.520 --> 1:44:56.080 denominator taste in order to get as many people as possible, 1:44:56.400 --> 1:45:00.360 the Internet is not home two people with niche taste 1:45:00.400 --> 1:45:05.320 because there isn't a way to escape it, to say, oh, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, 1:45:05.320 --> 1:45:09.559 these are all platforms only for the masses. I'm over 1:45:09.640 --> 1:45:11.559 here the way that I think there used to be 1:45:11.600 --> 1:45:15.759 with with magazines. We all still care about our success 1:45:15.760 --> 1:45:18.160 on these platforms. We were told, especially if you're creating things, 1:45:18.160 --> 1:45:20.120 you have to market yourself on this platform so people 1:45:20.160 --> 1:45:23.560 can't escape it. So either you get a movement offline 1:45:24.200 --> 1:45:28.760 and that people return to their cultural experiences being offline. 1:45:29.160 --> 1:45:31.800 And what's nice about online is you can show that 1:45:31.880 --> 1:45:33.639 you've done this thing offline, so there was an article 1:45:33.640 --> 1:45:37.560 in The Atlantic recently, um where you know, restaurant reservations 1:45:37.720 --> 1:45:42.120 are the hot new thing, and they're hot because it's scarce. 1:45:42.160 --> 1:45:44.880 It's real life, it's physical. You could only certain amount 1:45:44.880 --> 1:45:46.519 of people every night. You can go to this restaurant. 1:45:46.760 --> 1:45:50.240 At the same time, you can use Instagram to show 1:45:50.240 --> 1:45:53.160 that you've been to that restaurant. So using online to 1:45:53.880 --> 1:45:57.000 show your offline exploits, I think is one direction. This 1:45:57.040 --> 1:45:59.200 is going to go quickly, but I could see a 1:45:59.280 --> 1:46:02.519 growing cultural movement of just offline activity. You had to 1:46:02.520 --> 1:46:05.080 be there, and that's that is going to be where 1:46:05.080 --> 1:46:07.519 the real status is because that's the way it used 1:46:07.560 --> 1:46:12.080 to work other otherwise. I think these communities that are 1:46:12.120 --> 1:46:15.880 interested in niche artistic culture, I mean, there's lots of niche, 1:46:16.320 --> 1:46:20.120 weird things that aren't artistic, but the kind of people 1:46:20.160 --> 1:46:23.760 doing the invention that moves culture forward, there has to 1:46:23.800 --> 1:46:27.200 be spaces for them to experiment and be rewarded for it. 1:46:27.280 --> 1:46:30.240 And the current state of the Internet is not there. 1:46:30.320 --> 1:46:32.360 It may have been there maybe twenty years ago, but 1:46:32.360 --> 1:46:34.280 it's not there now, and so there will be some 1:46:34.360 --> 1:46:38.640 sort of new movement or exodus. But that also presumes 1:46:38.680 --> 1:46:41.040 that people who are eighteen right now want to do 1:46:41.200 --> 1:46:44.600 cultural invention the way that my generation wanted to or 1:46:44.720 --> 1:46:46.559 you know, I was listening to a lot of weird music, 1:46:46.560 --> 1:46:49.280 and I wanted to make weird music. But I don't 1:46:49.280 --> 1:46:51.240 know if eighteen year old kids are listening to weird 1:46:51.280 --> 1:46:54.120 things and want to make weird things. Okay, just going 1:46:54.160 --> 1:46:58.559 back one step, you talked about people watching movies and 1:46:58.720 --> 1:47:03.519 constantly looking at a clock. I resonate with that. That 1:47:03.720 --> 1:47:05.920 is me. If I'm watching with my girlfriend, I can 1:47:05.920 --> 1:47:09.559 watch anything. If I'm watching alone, it's a real pain 1:47:09.800 --> 1:47:13.799 to sit through it. If it's fantastic, that's not usually 1:47:13.800 --> 1:47:18.240 the issue. But there's very little that's fantastic. What is 1:47:18.280 --> 1:47:21.960 really going on? Why am I looking at the clock 1:47:22.040 --> 1:47:28.040 or stopping? You know, there are probably scientific studies on this, 1:47:28.160 --> 1:47:31.439 but I think it seems like our our attention spans 1:47:31.479 --> 1:47:34.920 are shorter, just in the sense of sitting there for 1:47:34.960 --> 1:47:38.200 an hour not checking your phone has become quite difficult, 1:47:38.920 --> 1:47:41.719 and you know, sitting through anything for two hours straight 1:47:41.840 --> 1:47:43.680 has become difficult. I feel like if I'm in a 1:47:43.720 --> 1:47:45.519 movie theater, I can get very into it. When I 1:47:45.560 --> 1:47:49.519 was watching Dune or something I was in, but at 1:47:49.560 --> 1:47:51.680 home you're just so distractive by the things around you, 1:47:51.760 --> 1:47:53.360 and you know you can stop, and so if you 1:47:53.400 --> 1:47:55.639 know you can stop, you stop. So I think that's 1:47:55.680 --> 1:47:59.559 one of them. The other is, you know, the model. 1:48:00.680 --> 1:48:03.879 I don't know what the exact business model is anymore, 1:48:03.880 --> 1:48:06.679 but it used to be you're gonna make ten movies 1:48:06.720 --> 1:48:09.200 in a year. You're you have no idea what's going 1:48:09.240 --> 1:48:14.280 to hit, and so you give ten people, uh, you say, 1:48:14.320 --> 1:48:17.000 go off and do these things. And one of them 1:48:17.040 --> 1:48:20.639 is David Lynch. And David Lynch makes a really weird 1:48:20.800 --> 1:48:22.439 movie with your money and you don't make any money 1:48:22.520 --> 1:48:25.000 from it, but you there's a David Lynch movie in 1:48:25.000 --> 1:48:29.560 the world, And the question is whether studios or everybody. 1:48:29.600 --> 1:48:33.360 Because it's so data driven, they got smarter and they thought, 1:48:33.400 --> 1:48:36.000 I'm not this David Lynch movie is definitely not going 1:48:36.040 --> 1:48:37.840 to be a hit. You know, just because Elephant Man 1:48:38.240 --> 1:48:40.479 was a hit doesn't mean Wild and Heart is going 1:48:40.560 --> 1:48:43.920 to be hit. So you don't give new David Lynch's movies. 1:48:44.520 --> 1:48:46.280 But then the question is are there a bunch of 1:48:46.360 --> 1:48:48.240 David lynch Is out there that we're just they're not 1:48:48.280 --> 1:48:50.200 getting funding. I don't know about that. I think the 1:48:50.280 --> 1:48:54.840 next generation is a lot more savvy and a lot 1:48:54.920 --> 1:48:57.920 less artistic minded in that really classic Aumant Guard way, 1:48:58.000 --> 1:49:01.480 And so you have a lot you have fewer creations 1:49:01.520 --> 1:49:03.559 that are probably from that world, you have the studio 1:49:03.640 --> 1:49:05.960 funding fewer of them, and then you have less patients 1:49:06.000 --> 1:49:07.400 from it, and then it comes out and of course 1:49:07.400 --> 1:49:09.479 it's not a hit because no one's gonna watch that 1:49:09.520 --> 1:49:11.479 kind of thing anyway. So the whole ecosystem is just 1:49:11.600 --> 1:49:15.400 not set up for some sort of movie that is 1:49:15.439 --> 1:49:17.439 I've never seen anything like it before. I have to 1:49:17.479 --> 1:49:20.479 turn away. And also we're we can turn away, and 1:49:20.520 --> 1:49:23.800 if the first ten minutes you don't like it, um, 1:49:24.080 --> 1:49:26.519 you will turn turn away. I mean, I can't imagine 1:49:26.560 --> 1:49:30.639 someone watching a Razorhead right now and being gripped by 1:49:30.640 --> 1:49:32.680 and say, I gotta, I gotta keep watching this thing. 1:49:32.680 --> 1:49:34.880 I mean, it's it's so slow. You have to really 1:49:35.040 --> 1:49:37.639 be disciplined to keep going. But if you're at an 1:49:37.640 --> 1:49:39.720 indie theater and it's nineteen and I don't know when 1:49:39.680 --> 1:49:42.559 it is, it's a late night theater, and you you 1:49:42.680 --> 1:49:44.960 go and it's the only culture you have in your city, 1:49:45.320 --> 1:49:48.400 You're gonna sit there and watch it, okay, And how 1:49:48.479 --> 1:49:51.200 much of it is the form has changed. Yes, so 1:49:51.240 --> 1:49:56.599 I can get bites online that are brief, and that's 1:49:56.680 --> 1:50:00.200 the new format and relevant of attention span is just 1:50:00.360 --> 1:50:03.440 more rewarding. I'm gonna want to get into science and dopamine, 1:50:04.120 --> 1:50:08.120 but is what people are looking for generally speaking different. 1:50:10.400 --> 1:50:14.200 It has most definitely conditioned us to want things very 1:50:14.240 --> 1:50:16.760 very quickly. I know that when a YouTube video hits 1:50:16.760 --> 1:50:19.519 about ninety seconds and goes beyond that, I think this 1:50:19.560 --> 1:50:22.679 is the longest video that's ever existed, and I fade out. 1:50:23.120 --> 1:50:27.080 So it's very strange. It's it's very strange that ninety 1:50:27.080 --> 1:50:29.000 seconds is about all we're willing to give us something. 1:50:29.080 --> 1:50:31.720 But also you know, you're often recommended it or it 1:50:31.880 --> 1:50:35.360 pops up on your feed, and you're not bought in. 1:50:35.479 --> 1:50:37.240 I mean, you're not in a place where you're going 1:50:37.240 --> 1:50:38.679 to sit there and say, I'm gonna watch a thirty 1:50:38.680 --> 1:50:42.280 minute movie. You're just trying to kill time for five minutes, 1:50:42.280 --> 1:50:43.960 and this is gonna be ninety seconds of it. So 1:50:44.000 --> 1:50:46.200 you really don't want anything that's ninety seconds. But we 1:50:46.240 --> 1:50:49.080 consider that time to be cultural consumption in a way 1:50:49.120 --> 1:50:51.600 that I think before, if you watch the film, you 1:50:51.640 --> 1:50:55.040 were going to sit, sit down at seven pm and 1:50:55.160 --> 1:50:58.000 pop pop the you know, VC pop the cassette into 1:50:58.040 --> 1:51:01.960 the VCR and watch a movie. Where today we're just 1:51:02.880 --> 1:51:06.360 thinking about our entertainment time. It's filling it with just 1:51:06.479 --> 1:51:11.000 what comes up, not by being intentional, um it's different 1:51:11.040 --> 1:51:13.639 by person by person, but the fact that so many 1:51:13.680 --> 1:51:16.639 people have reported that they can't get through long things, 1:51:16.720 --> 1:51:20.880 it does seem to be a plague of our times. Well, thanks, David, 1:51:20.880 --> 1:51:22.639 I think we've come to the end of the feeling 1:51:22.760 --> 1:51:26.559 we've known. This has been fascinating. You and me could 1:51:27.479 --> 1:51:31.240 express opinions and go over these issues for days, but 1:51:31.280 --> 1:51:33.920 it's not gonna be today. So and Nanny event thanks 1:51:33.960 --> 1:51:36.640 so much for taking this time with me. Thank you 1:51:36.680 --> 1:51:38.320 so much for having me. It's an honored to talk 1:51:38.360 --> 1:51:40.200 to you. I've been a big fan of the newsletter 1:51:40.240 --> 1:51:43.439 for a long time. Until next time. This is Bob 1:51:43.520 --> 1:51:44.120 Leftstax