WEBVTT - #104 Jason Flom with Daniel Holtzclaw

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<v Speaker 1>At two a m.

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<v Speaker 2>On June eighteenth, twenty fourteen, Oklahoma City police officer Daniel

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<v Speaker 2>Holsclaw finished up his shift. On his way home in

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<v Speaker 2>his police cruiser, he pulled over fifty seven year old

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<v Speaker 2>Janny Liggins for a traffic violation at a busy intersection

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<v Speaker 2>where surveillance footage shows a normal traffic stop. Around three

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<v Speaker 2>hours later, Miss Wiggins filed a complaint claiming that an

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<v Speaker 2>officer forced her into oral sodomy. Her mouth swap came

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<v Speaker 2>up empty for Daniel's DNA, as did his uniform for hers,

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<v Speaker 2>but this allegation inexplicably launched an investigation focused on at

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<v Speaker 2>risk African American women that Daniel had made contact with,

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<v Speaker 2>bringing forth twenty one alleged victims, including one man. Daniel

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<v Speaker 2>became a rallying cry for everyone who doesn't want to

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<v Speaker 2>see any cop abusing their power or sexually assaulting women.

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<v Speaker 2>It all seemed to fit a grim and growing narrative, and.

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<v Speaker 1>A media circus ensued.

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<v Speaker 2>At first, and I'm embarrassed to admit this, I jumped

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<v Speaker 2>right on board, thinking good, they got him, But upon

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<v Speaker 2>the persistent urging of his sister Jennifer, and admittedly through

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<v Speaker 2>my own reluctant closer. Look, we now have a case

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<v Speaker 2>that turns that abusive cop narrative right on its head.

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<v Speaker 2>In this amazing and alarming episode, we will speak with

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<v Speaker 2>Daniel's sister, Jennifer Holsklaw biologist Erika Feusch, and will also

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<v Speaker 2>take a phone call from an undisclosed correctional facility from

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<v Speaker 2>former Oklahoma City police officer Daniel Holsklaw, who is currently

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<v Speaker 2>serving a two hundred and sixty three year prison sentence

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<v Speaker 2>in a maximum security prison under assumed name for crimes

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<v Speaker 2>he did not commit. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back

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<v Speaker 2>to wrongful Conviction. Today's episode is going to mess up

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<v Speaker 2>your perceptions of everything, just as it did to me.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a tragic miscarriage of justice, but it's also an

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<v Speaker 2>insane journey through through a very different lens than.

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<v Speaker 1>We've ever covered before.

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<v Speaker 2>And today we're going to be talking about the case

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<v Speaker 2>of Daniel Holsklaw, wrongfully convicted, a former police officer from

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<v Speaker 2>Oklahoma City, and he's on the phone. So Daniel, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're on the phone.

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<v Speaker 3>I appreciate you guys having me on and my loved

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<v Speaker 3>one and be able to have out the opportunity and

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<v Speaker 3>definitely think and express.

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<v Speaker 2>My NiTi well, we hope to be part of the solution.

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<v Speaker 2>And with us in the studio, we have two extraordinary women.

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<v Speaker 2>One is a biologist, Erica Fusch, welcome.

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<v Speaker 4>To the show, Thank you, Jason.

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<v Speaker 2>And with her is one of the most persistent and

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<v Speaker 2>brave women I've come across, the sister of Daniel. Jennifer's

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<v Speaker 2>here and without you, I can honestly say this wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be happening.

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<v Speaker 4>Thank you for giving us the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Nor your courage is inspiring. And Daniel's same for you.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's talk about this crazy case. And this was

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<v Speaker 2>a national news story, international, I guess right. And at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, and I'm really sorry to say this day,

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<v Speaker 2>but at the time that I saw it had come

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<v Speaker 2>across my screen, I was like, oh, well, I mean, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>they got this guy, you know, like, because the narrative

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<v Speaker 2>was always the same and me, of all people should

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<v Speaker 2>not have bought into it. But it was an inexorable

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<v Speaker 2>barrage of information that was all one sided. And Daniel,

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<v Speaker 2>your sister, your amazing sister, you know, wouldn't leave me alone.

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<v Speaker 2>And at first I was like, can you leave me alone?

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<v Speaker 2>And she was like, no, I can't. And I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>but I want you to. And then once I got

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<v Speaker 2>into it and I started talking to Eric and I

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<v Speaker 2>started talking to others, and I was like, oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>he's as innocent as could be.

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<v Speaker 1>This is terrible. That's why we're here.

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<v Speaker 2>You're on the force for three years. And this whole

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<v Speaker 2>thing happened in what year, twenty fourteen, which was a

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<v Speaker 2>very fraught time. So we say a lot of controversy

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<v Speaker 2>around Ferguson and other which you know used to this day.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, there's a lot of stuff that still has

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<v Speaker 2>to be worked out as it relates to the relationships

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<v Speaker 2>between various police departments and the people they serve and protect.

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<v Speaker 5>It was rough, you know, they're at the what you

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<v Speaker 5>centered far as the atmosphere and the environment at that

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<v Speaker 5>time with the Ferguson deal, I mean, cops down days

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<v Speaker 5>are perceived as racist, corrupt, something's wrong with them. It's

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<v Speaker 5>not like back in the old days where God costs

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<v Speaker 5>were honored, you know, as a priceful job. You know this,

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<v Speaker 5>this this guy is a good guy. That's some more

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<v Speaker 5>along the lines of being skeptical. You know, and so

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<v Speaker 5>again the Ferguson deal, what happened then the Baltimore deal

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<v Speaker 5>was going on there, so it was literally by as

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<v Speaker 5>a storm and that situation.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I grew up, you know, obviously respecting anyone

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<v Speaker 2>in a uniform, but especially police officers. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there are some bad apples. So of course when that

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<v Speaker 2>stuff goes gets out on video, the public is going

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<v Speaker 2>to react because it's it's a betrayal of a very

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<v Speaker 2>serious level of trust. But is not to say that

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<v Speaker 2>the overwhelming majority of police officers aren't out there doing

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<v Speaker 2>the good job, risking their lives and performing a service

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<v Speaker 2>that we all need. You were ultimately convicted of false

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<v Speaker 2>charges related to eight different cases, So they got it

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<v Speaker 2>wrong eight times, and actually more than that when you

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<v Speaker 2>think about it, because there were numerous charges on most

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<v Speaker 2>of those cases anyway, or all of them. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they got it wrong eight times, whatever number. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's really that's scary, Jennifer, you want to jump in.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, yeah, it was definitely shocking to hear these allegations,

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<v Speaker 6>especially the first one. And the reason why I am

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<v Speaker 6>so passionate about is because when this first happened, I

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<v Speaker 6>wanted to know everything.

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<v Speaker 4>I wanted to read, all the transcripts.

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<v Speaker 6>I wanted to watch anything that can get my hand

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<v Speaker 6>on to see could my brother have really have done this?

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<v Speaker 6>And everything that I've looked into, everything that I've read

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<v Speaker 6>and knowing Daniel, and not just because he's my brother,

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<v Speaker 6>but just because the facts of everything that I put

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<v Speaker 6>my hands on or I could touch, nothing pointed to

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<v Speaker 6>Daniel's guilt.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's what really got me.

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<v Speaker 6>And I say this to this day, if there was

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<v Speaker 6>anything that proved or showed anything, I would back out

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<v Speaker 6>and see, Dane, you deserve every second being in prison

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<v Speaker 6>forever doing this to a woman. And I haven't found

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<v Speaker 6>one single thing that pointed me to say that Dale

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<v Speaker 6>did any of the crimes that he has been convicted of.

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<v Speaker 6>And so that's why I am very passionate about this

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<v Speaker 6>and I will fight till the day I die to

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<v Speaker 6>get my brother out.

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<v Speaker 2>So this started when Janny Liggins. She was a woman

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<v Speaker 2>that Daniel pulled over. Right, And Jenny, you've obviously been

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<v Speaker 2>so deep in this ever since it happened. You want

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<v Speaker 2>to walk us through this because it's really weird, right.

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<v Speaker 2>The video evidence doesn't match, the descriptions, don't match like

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<v Speaker 2>what happened.

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<v Speaker 4>So Danielle got off of work about two am. That

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<v Speaker 4>was his normal shift.

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<v Speaker 6>And it was proven and trial that when Dale would

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<v Speaker 6>get off of work they looked through his system. He

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<v Speaker 6>would normally just turn off his laptop and head home.

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<v Speaker 6>It was nothing that farius that he did that night

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<v Speaker 6>that he pulled Jannie Liggins over on his way home

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<v Speaker 6>not too far from the police department. He saw a

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<v Speaker 6>car swerving. Tenant windows limo tint at two am, you

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<v Speaker 6>can't see through those tenant windows, So it's not like

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<v Speaker 6>Daniel targeted a woman driving, so he pulled over, questioned her.

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<v Speaker 6>He had asked her if he could search her car.

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<v Speaker 6>He brought her to his police vehicle and then he

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<v Speaker 6>searched the car. He did say that he saw hydro

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<v Speaker 6>codon bottles and then he did a whole search. Is

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<v Speaker 6>there anything underneath your bra The class been shake and

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<v Speaker 6>she did that looking for drugs, looking for drugs and

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<v Speaker 6>any weapons. And everything that Daniel claimed had happened matched

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<v Speaker 6>up to what Jannie Leggan said. Besides the sexual assault,

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<v Speaker 6>Jennie Liggins claimed that when she was in the back

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<v Speaker 6>of Daniel's vehicle that Dale made her perform oral sex

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<v Speaker 6>right where he had pulled her over. There's a security

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<v Speaker 6>building that there's a grainy video on YouTube right now

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<v Speaker 6>that you can see the traffic stop and you can't

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<v Speaker 6>see everything. You can to see a police officer pulling

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<v Speaker 6>her over. He had his lights on, he never turned

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<v Speaker 6>his lights off. And it was right on a busy

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<v Speaker 6>intersection off of fiftieth in Lincoln in Oklahoma City. And

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<v Speaker 6>there was actually an off duty cop that does like

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<v Speaker 6>a side shop that is a security for that security building.

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<v Speaker 6>So it's not like Daniel pulled this person over on

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<v Speaker 6>a side street. It was a busy intersection and Daniel

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<v Speaker 6>let her go. And the following morning is when she

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<v Speaker 6>made the claims about the sexual assault.

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<v Speaker 7>A little later that morning, actually, I think, yeah, free hours, which.

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<v Speaker 2>Is a significant point, right because we have with us

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<v Speaker 2>in the room, as I introduced you before, a respected

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<v Speaker 2>biologist whose works in this field.

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<v Speaker 7>Well, looking at this from the biologist, what was important

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<v Speaker 7>for me to see is that Jannie Liggans made claims

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<v Speaker 7>that were not supported by the forensic evidence. She had

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<v Speaker 7>a same kit done that morning and was interviewed by

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<v Speaker 7>a female sex crimes detective and the same kit ultimately

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<v Speaker 7>came back negative. There was no DNA from Daniel found

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<v Speaker 7>around Janie's mouth and the swabs there, and during the

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<v Speaker 7>trial the forensic analyst actually said unfortunately there was no

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<v Speaker 7>DNA from Daniel, which showed her bias. Janie Niggins had

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<v Speaker 7>said that Daniel had placed his hands on the car

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<v Speaker 7>and she had placed her hands in the patrol car,

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<v Speaker 7>but fingerprint analysis and DNA was not found matching either

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<v Speaker 7>of them on the car, so her descriptions did not

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<v Speaker 7>match what was found with the forensic evidence. There was

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<v Speaker 7>no forensic evidence supporting what she said happened, and later

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<v Speaker 7>it was discovered after this stop that Daniel did. When

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<v Speaker 7>Jannie talked with the sex crimes detective Detective Davis, Jannie

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<v Speaker 7>disclosed that she had been smoking pot earlier that day,

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<v Speaker 7>and she described the police officer as having blonde hair

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<v Speaker 7>and being shorter.

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<v Speaker 4>It just didn't match right Daniel.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, she must have been high as a kite,

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<v Speaker 2>because if Daniel's blonde, then you know, I'm the Prime

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<v Speaker 2>Minister of Egypt, you know what I mean. Like, he

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<v Speaker 2>has dark hair obviously, and Shorty's six to two, So

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<v Speaker 2>none of this stuff makes any sense. How could you

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<v Speaker 2>get that wrong. You get a lot of things wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't get blonde to black hair wrong.

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<v Speaker 7>And ultimately the detectives used Daniel's own police records specifically

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<v Speaker 7>looking for African American women he had stopped who had

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<v Speaker 7>criminal histories, and the detectives went and questioned over forty

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<v Speaker 7>women fitting this profile and then got allegations from them

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<v Speaker 7>to add to this initial allegation they had.

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<v Speaker 1>So then they went fishing.

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<v Speaker 8>Hello, this is detective days.

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<v Speaker 6>I have received a tiptive being clear on the thumb

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<v Speaker 6>when we talked.

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<v Speaker 5>Oyah, quite clear.

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<v Speaker 7>But like I said, that's the only time that.

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<v Speaker 2>I had that happened to me.

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<v Speaker 8>Both they said to me that was.

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<v Speaker 5>A black office.

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<v Speaker 8>I work in sext fronts and I've been working in

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<v Speaker 8>some cases and I received a tip that you may

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<v Speaker 8>have been sexually assaulted by a police officer.

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<v Speaker 7>Because I've had to go to a lot of women

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<v Speaker 7>they didn't come forward, I've had.

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<v Speaker 6>To go find and only one race. That's what infuriates me.

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<v Speaker 6>Why did they only question one race? If they were

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<v Speaker 6>really wanting to figure out if he's a serial rapist,

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<v Speaker 6>why didn't the other races matter?

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<v Speaker 1>You know?

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<v Speaker 4>Why did they only question one?

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<v Speaker 1>So?

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<v Speaker 4>Right, that's very frustrating for me.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, it's disturbing because the lieutenant who was in charge

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<v Speaker 7>of the investigation, and it says this during the trial,

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<v Speaker 7>the lieutenant specifically looked back through six months of Daniel's

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<v Speaker 7>police records and created a list of the African American women,

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<v Speaker 7>specifically African American women quote who had a drug history,

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<v Speaker 7>prostitution history, or a significant criminal history whom Daniel had stopped.

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<v Speaker 7>So people presumed Daniel was guilty of racism, when in fact,

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<v Speaker 7>it was the detectives who were targeting African American women

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<v Speaker 7>at risk African American women, encouraging them to make allegations

0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.800
<v Speaker 7>against Daniel as they were railroading Daniel, right.

0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.120
<v Speaker 2>And they brought these women in and the videos are

0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.160
<v Speaker 2>as troubling as the audience who's listening now probably thinks

0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:09.800
<v Speaker 2>they are right. There's one who's stuck in my head.

0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.600
<v Speaker 2>I've forgotten her name, but who came in and said

0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.360
<v Speaker 2>the seven times she was asked, did anything happen? And

0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.760
<v Speaker 2>seven times she said no, And then eventually they got

0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:19.920
<v Speaker 2>her to change her story.

0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.840
<v Speaker 7>She then said that the only officer who'd been inappropriate

0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.720
<v Speaker 7>was a black police officer several years ago who exposed

0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.640
<v Speaker 7>himself to her, and then the detective kept on questioning,

0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.320
<v Speaker 7>and ultimately this woman then claimed that Daniel had wanted

0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.080
<v Speaker 7>her to lift up her bra. He didn't say anything,

0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.760
<v Speaker 7>but she just did it, and that was the whole allegation.

0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:42.520
<v Speaker 7>He didn't even tell her. She just thought that she's

0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.840
<v Speaker 7>supposed to. So that was glossed over by the detectives.

0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.280
<v Speaker 7>I don't think that the detective reported that she actually

0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.600
<v Speaker 7>accused a black police officer, just jumped instead right ahead

0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.559
<v Speaker 7>to saying that Daniel had done something right.

0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>And the number were just summarily dismissed because they were

0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.760
<v Speaker 2>so ridiculous that they couldn't even take him to trial.

0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.040
<v Speaker 7>There were eight people who made allegations against Daniel, and

0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.240
<v Speaker 7>those allegations were weeded out right away, And so these

0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.880
<v Speaker 7>were eight allegations made that never went a trial, and

0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.760
<v Speaker 7>then the trial there were thirteen allegations. Five of them

0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.320
<v Speaker 7>led to acquittals, and the eight that ended up causing

0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.440
<v Speaker 7>convictions had numerous problems in them. Like Jenny mentioned one

0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.120
<v Speaker 7>of the women saying that it was a shorter police

0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.480
<v Speaker 7>officer who was black, a shade darker than her own

0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.239
<v Speaker 7>skin color, and leone got the most number of YEW

0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.600
<v Speaker 7>years for her allegations.

0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.080
<v Speaker 2>Right, so you were mistaken for a short, black guy.

0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.839
<v Speaker 2>And anyone who hasn't already seen pictures of Daniel take

0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.120
<v Speaker 2>a look. I mean he as a linebacker and he's

0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.600
<v Speaker 2>the six to two, very bulky guy who's Asian.

0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:45.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is not.

0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:52.679
<v Speaker 2>Confusing, right, this is nuts. This is absolutely nuts. But

0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.480
<v Speaker 2>with the sheer number of allegations seeming so overwhelming, it's

0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of understandable how that could have continued to cast

0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.120
<v Speaker 2>out on Daniel's innocence. After all, just because one allegation

0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.600
<v Speaker 2>is doubtful does not disprove another, which is why we

0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.480
<v Speaker 2>need to take a look at each allegation individually. I

0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:10.480
<v Speaker 2>also want to be clear that we're not here to

0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:13.600
<v Speaker 2>point at the alleged victim's life choices as evidence of.

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Credibility or lack thereof.

0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Now, initially twenty one accusers came forward, but eight were

0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:25.080
<v Speaker 2>eliminated immediately as false allegations against Daniel. For example, one

0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.200
<v Speaker 2>of them alleged that Daniel had used his position as

0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 2>a police officer as sexually assault her after he had

0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 2>been put on administrative leave. Others later admitted to lying

0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.200
<v Speaker 2>including Shenise Barksdale.

0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:36.680
<v Speaker 5>So he never touched you.

0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:39.960
<v Speaker 2>I've never seen why.

0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.720
<v Speaker 9>I just felt bad for her, and I just wanted

0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.520
<v Speaker 9>to know like she wasn't the only victim or anything

0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:48.240
<v Speaker 9>you feel bad for whom I.

0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.680
<v Speaker 2>Don't know about the fifty cents and you found out

0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:58.640
<v Speaker 2>about her from one Facebook. Five of the remaining thirteen

0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.840
<v Speaker 2>accusations resulted in acquittal. For privacy protection, we will refer

0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.800
<v Speaker 2>to each of these accusers as quote acquittal and.

0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:06.960
<v Speaker 1>A corresponding number.

0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.440
<v Speaker 2>Acquittal one told investigators about an alleged assault made by

0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.520
<v Speaker 2>an officer in an area that Daniel had never patrolled.

0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.680
<v Speaker 2>When investigators fed her details and a timeline to match

0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Daniel's beat, she denied that story until getting arrested for

0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.600
<v Speaker 2>unrelated drug charges, at which time she decided to agree

0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.960
<v Speaker 2>to change her story to match the different location. Acquittal

0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.680
<v Speaker 2>two claimed to have flashed Officer holst Law her breasts,

0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.320
<v Speaker 2>thinking that was what he wanted, even though he had

0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.680
<v Speaker 2>not requested it. She denied any inappropriate contact. Then she

0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.360
<v Speaker 2>told investigators about an alleged indecent exposure by a black

0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:44.320
<v Speaker 2>police officer. Acquittal three claimed that Daniel had raped her

0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.520
<v Speaker 2>for twenty to thirty minutes and orally sodomized her through

0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.800
<v Speaker 2>the unzipped fly of his pants. This alleged incident would

0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.720
<v Speaker 2>have happened just hours before the Janny Liggans traffic stop. However,

0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.800
<v Speaker 2>there was no match to her DNA either, as well

0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.880
<v Speaker 2>as no evidence of body fluid on Daniel's fly. She

0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.720
<v Speaker 2>also said that her attacker had ticketed her one year prior.

0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:05.360
<v Speaker 2>Daniel had never.

0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:06.120
<v Speaker 1>Ticketed this woman.

0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Acquittal four claimed that Daniel groped her breast, but described

0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.440
<v Speaker 2>the alleged groper as quote part Hispanic and having quote

0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.560
<v Speaker 2>slightly gray hair. She also testified in quote that lying

0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.320
<v Speaker 2>and giving false social security numbers to the police.

0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:20.600
<v Speaker 1>Is appropriate behavior.

0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:25.119
<v Speaker 2>Lastly, Daniel friended a message with Acquittal five on Facebook

0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.240
<v Speaker 2>after an incident involving an overdose on PCP in which

0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:32.080
<v Speaker 2>Acquittal five disposed of the substance by eating a glass

0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.640
<v Speaker 2>vial full of it. In fact, Daniel escorted her life

0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:37.480
<v Speaker 2>saving ambulance ride to the hospital.

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:38.920
<v Speaker 1>In her police.

0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Interview, she claimed that while she was recovering from that incident,

0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Daniel allegedly forced her into oralsodomy while she was handcuffed

0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.480
<v Speaker 2>to her bed in a busy hospital. This is what

0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.400
<v Speaker 2>she said on her way out of that interview.

0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:51.360
<v Speaker 1>So this is good evidence.

0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:55.080
<v Speaker 6>Well you tell me, I think so, because I mean,

0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.960
<v Speaker 6>even if he didn't like even right, no about.

0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:00.200
<v Speaker 7>Eleven, he fit yea.

0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.800
<v Speaker 2>So all five of these allegations ended in acquittal of

0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:09.560
<v Speaker 2>the original twenty one accusers. Eight allegations resulted in convictions,

0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.680
<v Speaker 2>and we are going to now one by one examine

0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.920
<v Speaker 2>the facts of each case. Again, for protection of privacy,

0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.120
<v Speaker 2>we refer to all as conviction and a corresponding number.

0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.760
<v Speaker 2>You're already aware of Conviction one. Jenny Leggins, whom we

0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:26.920
<v Speaker 2>covered earlier. Conviction two, alleged that Daniel had orally sodomized

0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.960
<v Speaker 2>her near a public park, then transported her inside the

0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.080
<v Speaker 2>public park by a closed school, and proceeded to rape

0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:35.600
<v Speaker 2>her for five to ten minutes. This is how she

0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:36.760
<v Speaker 2>described her attacker.

0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:38.679
<v Speaker 9>Tell me your description of him.

0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:44.200
<v Speaker 6>He's black man, muscular, muscular, So you think he's shorter

0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:44.560
<v Speaker 6>than you?

0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:46.879
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, okay, I'll tell you.

0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.440
<v Speaker 5>Even what kind of car did he have?

0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:53.920
<v Speaker 6>A black and white black and white cor Oklahoma City

0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:54.639
<v Speaker 6>Police Corps.

0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.480
<v Speaker 2>Daniel also had made contact with her at some point

0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.640
<v Speaker 2>near that old school in the public park, but when

0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:03.480
<v Speaker 2>he did. His Automatic Vehicle locator or AVL, a GPS

0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.280
<v Speaker 2>device attracts the movements of police cars, says that his

0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.440
<v Speaker 2>car stopped for less than four minutes, not five to ten.

0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.760
<v Speaker 2>He's also six two and half white, half Japanese, definitely

0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:17.119
<v Speaker 2>not shorter than five eleven, and definitely not black. Conviction

0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.440
<v Speaker 2>three claimed that Daniel allowed her to drive under the

0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.040
<v Speaker 2>influence while he followed her to her relative's house, at

0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:24.000
<v Speaker 2>which point she alleged that he drove her to the

0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:25.000
<v Speaker 2>end of the street.

0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:28.440
<v Speaker 1>And raped her. However, his AVL tells us that he

0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.840
<v Speaker 1>never drove on that street. Further, the duration of the

0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:32.760
<v Speaker 1>alleged rape.

0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.399
<v Speaker 2>Changed from quote a long time to quote five to

0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.320
<v Speaker 2>ten minutes, and then a trial to quote maybe about

0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.639
<v Speaker 2>three minutes or so. But when she and Daniel did

0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.440
<v Speaker 2>have an interaction, his AVL still would only allow for

0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.439
<v Speaker 2>a window of less than three minutes for a possible attack.

0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.400
<v Speaker 2>Conviction four alleged that when Daniel raped and orally sodomized

0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:52.639
<v Speaker 2>her in her room in a house, that she wiped

0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.360
<v Speaker 2>phlegm from that oralsodomy on a chair. The swab from

0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.200
<v Speaker 2>the chair, however, revealed the DNA profile of a mail

0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.840
<v Speaker 2>that was not Daniel. Conviction five claimed that her alleged

0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:07.040
<v Speaker 2>attacker drove the older model Oklahoma City PD black and white. However,

0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Daniel drove the newer all black Cruiser. Conviction six testified

0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.679
<v Speaker 2>that her attacker was a tan color like someone from India,

0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 2>not dark, but not pale. She also claimed that he

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.040
<v Speaker 2>made her expose herself. However, a witness claimed that she

0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:24.800
<v Speaker 2>was handcuffed at the start of their encounter. For Conviction seven,

0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.360
<v Speaker 2>there's no Dan Evans to speak of, but she did

0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:31.600
<v Speaker 2>change her story several times. At first, an officer allegedly

0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.400
<v Speaker 2>fondled her breast over her clothing. Then at a preliminary hearing,

0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.720
<v Speaker 2>she claimed that the groping was skinned to skin contact.

0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:42.240
<v Speaker 2>At trial, it was back to her over the clothing allegation. Finally,

0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:46.280
<v Speaker 2>the crux of the prosecution's case Conviction eight, a seventeen

0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:48.560
<v Speaker 2>year old girl who claimed that Daniel pat searched her,

0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.640
<v Speaker 2>inserted a finger in her vagina, and proceeded to rape

0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:53.920
<v Speaker 2>her through the unzipped fly of his buckled pants on

0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.000
<v Speaker 2>her mother's porch. This is what she had told her

0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:58.280
<v Speaker 2>mother about their encounter.

0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:00.680
<v Speaker 9>She said, it's really hot.

0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.080
<v Speaker 5>Cop he told me I had a couple of one,

0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:07.119
<v Speaker 5>but said, don't worry about it. She's really nicely affecting.

0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.439
<v Speaker 2>No body fluid was detected or observed on the fly

0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:18.159
<v Speaker 2>of his pants. However, a microscopic trace amount of her

0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.560
<v Speaker 2>DNA was found on his fly, along with DNA from

0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:25.280
<v Speaker 2>at least two other individuals, including at least one unknown male,

0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.520
<v Speaker 2>which goes to support the defensive theory that the presence

0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:31.320
<v Speaker 2>of her DNA on his fly can be explained by

0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:35.520
<v Speaker 2>secondary transfer transfer of DNA to objects or people through

0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:36.360
<v Speaker 2>an intermediary.

0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.560
<v Speaker 7>The main evidence in the case was DNA found on

0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.399
<v Speaker 7>the fly of Daniel's pants, but the DNA evidence on

0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 7>the fly of the pants included no evidence of body fluid,

0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.760
<v Speaker 7>and ultimately, Daniel was accused of raping one woman through

0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:57.440
<v Speaker 7>the unzipped fly of those buckled pants, and there's no stains,

0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:01.119
<v Speaker 7>no deposits on them at all. That would make it

0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:04.159
<v Speaker 7>very unlikely that there had been any kind of sexual

0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.040
<v Speaker 7>assault to be able to give evidence. That's just a

0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:11.320
<v Speaker 7>low quantity of DNA that matches most closely with indirect

0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:12.480
<v Speaker 7>transfer of DNA.

0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Is it possible for Daniel to have done these crimes

0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.560
<v Speaker 2>and not left any trace of biological evidence.

0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.320
<v Speaker 7>Anywhere, I would say very unlikely.

0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:27.080
<v Speaker 2>This is so troubling because the idea that Daniel or

0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:31.320
<v Speaker 2>anyone could be convicted of eight different crimes with the

0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.200
<v Speaker 2>absence of any real biological evidence. And it takes you,

0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.879
<v Speaker 2>coming from Iowa, an outsider, to come in and do

0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:43.640
<v Speaker 2>the work that the forensic people should have and could

0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.159
<v Speaker 2>have very easily done in the first place. The mistakes,

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:47.840
<v Speaker 2>there's so many mistakes that we don't have time to

0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:49.600
<v Speaker 2>cover it on this show. I mean, I have a

0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:52.600
<v Speaker 2>list of ninety five of them, right, and there's no

0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:54.639
<v Speaker 2>way we could talk for hours that we wouldn't cover

0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.600
<v Speaker 2>all of the mistakes that were made, both deliberate and

0:21:58.200 --> 0:21:59.200
<v Speaker 2>sloppy mistakes.

0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:01.720
<v Speaker 1>Right. So, but back to you.

0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.680
<v Speaker 7>When I looked at the news about the case, which

0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:07.919
<v Speaker 7>is how I found out about it, it was mentioning

0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.119
<v Speaker 7>how the prosecutors were so proud to have gotten convictions

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.399
<v Speaker 7>on eight women's allegations based on a little bit of DNA.

0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:17.040
<v Speaker 7>The more I looked, I saw there's no evidence of

0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.200
<v Speaker 7>body fluids. And it turns out the forensic analysts just

0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:23.760
<v Speaker 7>looked at the pants with the bright light and magnifying

0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:27.399
<v Speaker 7>glass and saw there was no evidence of vaginal fluid

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.200
<v Speaker 7>or body fluid, and then went right to testing just

0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:32.200
<v Speaker 7>the fly of the pants. She did not do any

0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 7>control tests on other places on Daniel's uniform pants and belts.

0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:39.640
<v Speaker 7>The main problem I think at the Oklahoma City Police

0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:43.199
<v Speaker 7>Department is the detectives and then the prosecutors above them.

0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:46.480
<v Speaker 7>They just did not understand that DNA can transfer innocently.

0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.359
<v Speaker 7>So as soon as they found a mixture of DNA

0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.879
<v Speaker 7>on the fly of Daniel's pants, the police thought that

0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:58.040
<v Speaker 7>meant he was guilty of sexual conduct and therefore guilty

0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:01.320
<v Speaker 7>of sexual crimes. They wanted to then go out and

0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:05.480
<v Speaker 7>find the female who matched the major contributor to that

0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:09.000
<v Speaker 7>DNA mixture, assuming she was a victim. So they had

0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.639
<v Speaker 7>that mindset, that bias that developed into tunnel vision on

0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.359
<v Speaker 7>Daniel right from the beginning of the investigation, and then

0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:19.440
<v Speaker 7>went out and solicited allegations from women whom Daniel had stopped.

0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:23.040
<v Speaker 7>And it's no surprise that some of the women did remember, yes,

0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:27.000
<v Speaker 7>they were stopped by Daniel, because they had been contacted

0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:31.000
<v Speaker 7>because the police knew Daniel stopped them. Daniel's case would

0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:34.000
<v Speaker 7>be like someone meeting with you in your office, and

0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:36.840
<v Speaker 7>then later they find a woman's DNA on the fly

0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:39.159
<v Speaker 7>or pants, and the woman said, yes, I was at

0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:41.760
<v Speaker 7>his office. And they conclude that you're guilty just because

0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:43.560
<v Speaker 7>you had an interaction with someone.

0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:47.400
<v Speaker 2>So if you shook hands this morning with somebody who

0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:51.480
<v Speaker 2>you met on the street and then you went into

0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.920
<v Speaker 2>a friend whatever, and then they went and went to

0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.639
<v Speaker 2>the bathroom afterwards, a little bit of your DNA, a

0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.720
<v Speaker 2>touch DNA would be on somewhere on the wherever they

0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:01.560
<v Speaker 2>und after on button, it would be there.

0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:04.040
<v Speaker 7>It could very well be there, right because.

0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.560
<v Speaker 2>We're always transferring together, always shedding like we always It's

0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:08.960
<v Speaker 2>like we leave it on every day, we leave it

0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:10.600
<v Speaker 2>on the coffee cup, we leave it everywhere we go.

0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:25.080
<v Speaker 2>When you were first taking in for questioning, did you

0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:26.119
<v Speaker 2>request a lawyer.

0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:29.040
<v Speaker 9>I didn't request a lawyer at the time. I just

0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:31.600
<v Speaker 9>wanted to do a professional I wanted.

0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.520
<v Speaker 5>To clear my name on you in an any department

0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:36.080
<v Speaker 5>in law.

0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:38.760
<v Speaker 9>Or your replications before you go off of and you

0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:40.399
<v Speaker 9>want to go to a promotion, you want to go

0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:43.720
<v Speaker 9>to any special unit. Your replication is what's online and

0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:46.560
<v Speaker 9>when people here about you. And so I'm talking clear

0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:48.800
<v Speaker 9>my name. I don't know what you got kind of

0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:51.399
<v Speaker 9>allegation you as before me, I'm talking clear my name.

0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:53.000
<v Speaker 9>I'll try to cooperate and get.

0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:53.679
<v Speaker 1>Out of there, right.

0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:55.960
<v Speaker 2>But we see so many times when we see young

0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:58.720
<v Speaker 2>kids picked up by police for questioning and they don't

0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:00.639
<v Speaker 2>even know they're supposed to ask for a lawyer right

0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:02.840
<v Speaker 2>there in high school, or they're from they're from a

0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:06.080
<v Speaker 2>background where they had no knowledge of how these things work.

0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.639
<v Speaker 2>You were in law enforcement, right, so it seems to

0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:14.239
<v Speaker 2>me logical that if you were concerned, the first thing

0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:17.240
<v Speaker 2>you would have done. You're a college graduate, your whole family's,

0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:19.800
<v Speaker 2>your whole life has been law enforcement. You've got a

0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:23.439
<v Speaker 2>degree in criminal justice. I mean that's where I go. Well,

0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:27.040
<v Speaker 2>wait a minute, if there was anything on your mind,

0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:29.720
<v Speaker 2>the first thing you would have said is okay, I

0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:31.600
<v Speaker 2>want to lawyer. I'm not stocking you guys now. And

0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:34.000
<v Speaker 2>actually you went in the complete opposite direction from what

0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:36.400
<v Speaker 2>I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong. You turned over

0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:39.360
<v Speaker 2>your passwords, you turned over the keys to your apartment.

0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:42.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, can you just elaborate on that? And why

0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:43.920
<v Speaker 2>did you do those things?

0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:49.880
<v Speaker 5>I basically cooperated as fools anything, As I answered again,

0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:53.600
<v Speaker 5>I wanted to be professional. I didn't raiseel I didn't.

0:25:56.240 --> 0:26:00.280
<v Speaker 5>They asked. I answered, And that's kind of how in

0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:03.080
<v Speaker 5>the sense that you were training academy. You know, you're

0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:05.959
<v Speaker 5>broken down and then you're rated up, and so if

0:26:06.000 --> 0:26:08.320
<v Speaker 5>you're asked the question, you're dressed, you're going to reply

0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:12.240
<v Speaker 5>anything that they asked. Yeah, go ahead, please please do that.

0:26:12.800 --> 0:26:14.359
<v Speaker 5>Go ahead and go with the DNA test, and go

0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:16.560
<v Speaker 5>ahead and go to my apartment. Whatever you need to

0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:18.800
<v Speaker 5>do to clear my name so I could get back

0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:21.560
<v Speaker 5>and continue my job. But I thought I'd really good

0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:21.800
<v Speaker 5>at it.

0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:27.159
<v Speaker 2>Please do after this had become this insane media circus

0:26:27.280 --> 0:26:32.760
<v Speaker 2>that reached people all over the world, and now you

0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:36.440
<v Speaker 2>go to trial, and I'm sure it was a crazy

0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:39.000
<v Speaker 2>scene there. Just give us your perspective on how the

0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:42.760
<v Speaker 2>trial went, how your defense team handled it, and what

0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:44.080
<v Speaker 2>your expectations were.

0:26:44.480 --> 0:26:46.480
<v Speaker 5>Trial was a long period time and this has happened

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:49.600
<v Speaker 5>during the Thanksgiving break. So the biggest thing I want

0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:52.640
<v Speaker 5>to try to address to the audience is how big

0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:56.040
<v Speaker 5>of an attack media affects people's perception in their opinions.

0:26:56.160 --> 0:26:59.480
<v Speaker 5>So when they use that national media into the aid

0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:02.440
<v Speaker 5>of the office, I'm already presumed guilty before I step

0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:06.680
<v Speaker 5>in that courtroom. So when Judge Henderson asked the jury members,

0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:08.520
<v Speaker 5>are everyone in the court room, brings your right handed

0:27:08.560 --> 0:27:10.879
<v Speaker 5>to you have seen this man or ever heard of

0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:13.880
<v Speaker 5>the name Daniel. I looked up the whole courtroom raise

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:17.680
<v Speaker 5>your hand. So imagine yourself being there finding for your life,

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:20.359
<v Speaker 5>and the whole court room already knows who you are

0:27:20.480 --> 0:27:25.159
<v Speaker 5>based off the opinions of the media. And again media

0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:29.000
<v Speaker 5>has such as a fact on the outcome of cases

0:27:29.080 --> 0:27:32.440
<v Speaker 5>because all it shows is highlights. They don't show the facts.

0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:34.680
<v Speaker 5>They could edit and they could crop whatever they want

0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:37.240
<v Speaker 5>to say what they want. And the majorty of the

0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:40.720
<v Speaker 5>cases is the wrong narrative. It's false, it's not the

0:27:40.880 --> 0:27:45.080
<v Speaker 5>right facts. So with that said, it was a huge

0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:47.280
<v Speaker 5>burden overcome. So it's you guilty. Then you got to

0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:49.760
<v Speaker 5>prove yourself innocent. And on top of that you have

0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:52.240
<v Speaker 5>a whole duram members of that perception in their mind

0:27:52.960 --> 0:27:55.480
<v Speaker 5>is already oh, he's already presumed guilty. And then, like

0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:58.000
<v Speaker 5>I said, going back to the bank giving break, it's

0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:02.159
<v Speaker 5>a long trial. So you have Jess Henderson's quarterners is

0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:04.760
<v Speaker 5>don't talk to your sipnificant others when you go back home.

0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:07.320
<v Speaker 5>Come on, let's in reality, that's not going to happen.

0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 5>You know, honey, what did you do today? Well, I

0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:11.560
<v Speaker 5>was at the Hole small trial, the biggest thing going

0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:15.399
<v Speaker 5>on in Oklahoma. You know, all national news Oklahoma. Of

0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:16.920
<v Speaker 5>course you're going to talk about it. And so it

0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:19.440
<v Speaker 5>reinforces the people that are not even the court room,

0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:23.280
<v Speaker 5>the husband and wife, Oh well, he's guilty. He's guilty

0:28:23.320 --> 0:28:25.679
<v Speaker 5>of this. He's just playing it into the jury member's

0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:29.200
<v Speaker 5>minds and they're hearing that. So it's reinforcing the presumption

0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:32.920
<v Speaker 5>of guilt. So that's something I want to reinforce the

0:28:33.000 --> 0:28:35.800
<v Speaker 5>people in the audience to understand, be in my position,

0:28:36.000 --> 0:28:38.440
<v Speaker 5>how hard it is to fight for that, you know.

0:28:38.640 --> 0:28:41.640
<v Speaker 5>And so we come back from Thanksgiving break and then

0:28:41.760 --> 0:28:43.920
<v Speaker 5>only that you have to board my lawyers. You know,

0:28:45.000 --> 0:28:47.800
<v Speaker 5>we hire a DNA expert, and yet you know they

0:28:47.840 --> 0:28:50.560
<v Speaker 5>didn't finding you on this DNA. We have to wait

0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:53.880
<v Speaker 5>till Eric comes along to find that that stuff's not right.

0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:55.680
<v Speaker 5>You know, I'll find it for my life. We hired,

0:28:55.760 --> 0:28:59.120
<v Speaker 5>we spent hard working money for the DNA expert, and

0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:02.480
<v Speaker 5>yet you're gonna say kill me on that. There's a

0:29:02.520 --> 0:29:04.480
<v Speaker 5>lot of parts were in the trial. I felt like,

0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:07.880
<v Speaker 5>you know, my lawyer could have stepped up and objected

0:29:08.040 --> 0:29:10.400
<v Speaker 5>or said something. And there was times where I was mad.

0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:13.520
<v Speaker 5>You know, I'm getting I'm getting frusterted. I'm trying to

0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 5>keep my composure because the jurors members are looking at me,

0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:19.400
<v Speaker 5>but you know, I'm getting mad. And I remember one

0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:21.520
<v Speaker 5>time I'm just like Scott, what are you injecting? Like

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:24.040
<v Speaker 5>what are you doing? And we kind of got into

0:29:24.040 --> 0:29:27.120
<v Speaker 5>Bigger Mintie's like calm down, I'll calm down. Well, it's

0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:29.240
<v Speaker 5>hard for me to calm down when you see these

0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:31.520
<v Speaker 5>quote unquote victims that go on the stands, we're not

0:29:31.640 --> 0:29:35.320
<v Speaker 5>even addressing the questions. In addition to that, you have

0:29:35.640 --> 0:29:38.600
<v Speaker 5>leet Detective Davis and Gregory that are coaching them along

0:29:38.920 --> 0:29:41.680
<v Speaker 5>head nodding everything they want to say. Okay, yeah, that's

0:29:41.720 --> 0:29:43.800
<v Speaker 5>where I continue on and they're looking at Davis and

0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:46.720
<v Speaker 5>I'm looking at the jurior members are you serious.

0:29:46.440 --> 0:29:46.680
<v Speaker 1>Or you're not?

0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:49.800
<v Speaker 5>Are you not seeing this? And so it was really

0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:55.240
<v Speaker 5>frustrating the whole process. Uh, obviously I was in total

0:29:55.360 --> 0:29:59.600
<v Speaker 5>sock when the murder came down, and it was just,

0:30:01.840 --> 0:30:06.040
<v Speaker 5>you know, something that didn't ever possible would happened.

0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:10.880
<v Speaker 2>My friend Josh Dubin conducted a study with a help

0:30:10.880 --> 0:30:13.120
<v Speaker 2>from a lot of other people that showed that jury

0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:17.040
<v Speaker 2>members have a presumption of guilt that teeters on eighty

0:30:17.120 --> 0:30:20.000
<v Speaker 2>percent just because they see somebody in the defendant's box.

0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:23.080
<v Speaker 2>In your case, it was probably one hundred percent of

0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:24.960
<v Speaker 2>them assumed you must be guilty of something because it

0:30:25.040 --> 0:30:28.360
<v Speaker 2>was impossible to find a jury that hadn't heard about

0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:30.440
<v Speaker 2>the case. You couldn't have found one anywhere in America

0:30:30.440 --> 0:30:32.480
<v Speaker 2>at that point in time, but least of all in Oklahoma.

0:30:33.480 --> 0:30:35.800
<v Speaker 2>So in your case, they you know, and and then

0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:38.720
<v Speaker 2>being the amateur psychologist that I am, you know, when

0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:41.040
<v Speaker 2>the jury is they're sitting there and then they're being

0:30:41.120 --> 0:30:43.720
<v Speaker 2>presented with evidence that they're you know, they're they're not

0:30:43.880 --> 0:30:45.800
<v Speaker 2>dumb people. So they're sitting there going, well, this doesn't

0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:47.880
<v Speaker 2>make sense and that wasn't true, and this doesn't add up.

0:30:47.920 --> 0:30:49.480
<v Speaker 2>And he's not a black guy, and he's not short,

0:30:49.520 --> 0:30:51.640
<v Speaker 2>and he's not blonde. And but on the other hand,

0:30:52.080 --> 0:30:55.120
<v Speaker 2>I saw this thing on TV and yeah, I mean

0:30:55.480 --> 0:30:58.040
<v Speaker 2>it's it's it's a lot a lot.

0:30:58.120 --> 0:31:00.720
<v Speaker 7>I can jump here too, because what's It's really important

0:31:00.840 --> 0:31:04.720
<v Speaker 7>is how the DNA evidence contributed heavily to Daniel's conviction,

0:31:05.160 --> 0:31:09.400
<v Speaker 7>because the prosecutor actually said in his closing the argument quote,

0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:13.600
<v Speaker 7>the most important thing about the teenager whose DNA profile

0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:16.280
<v Speaker 7>was found on the fly of Daniels pants is the fact,

0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:19.640
<v Speaker 7>said the prosecutor, that DNA from the walls of her

0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:23.320
<v Speaker 7>vagina was transferred to vaginal fluids on the outside and

0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:26.520
<v Speaker 7>the inside, not of his pockets, not of his cuff,

0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.560
<v Speaker 7>not where he sits, but at the exact location she

0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:33.160
<v Speaker 7>says his penis came in contact. So the prosecutor lied

0:31:33.400 --> 0:31:36.120
<v Speaker 7>to the jury telling them there was vaginal fluid that

0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:39.520
<v Speaker 7>was there was not. And we know from a juror's

0:31:39.840 --> 0:31:42.560
<v Speaker 7>interview after the trial that the jury, at least this

0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 7>one juror thought there was vaginal fluid because he was

0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:48.640
<v Speaker 7>interviewed on Crimewatch Daily and he said, well, I mean,

0:31:48.760 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 7>I'm not a DNA expert. They told us the DNA

0:31:51.440 --> 0:31:53.560
<v Speaker 7>was from the vaginal fluid of a seventeen year old.

0:31:54.000 --> 0:31:56.720
<v Speaker 7>The DNA people are pretty boring, to be honest with you.

0:31:56.960 --> 0:31:59.440
<v Speaker 8>End quote, Well, I mean, I'm not the NA expert.

0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:02.840
<v Speaker 8>They told us it was the DNA from the vaginal

0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:06.719
<v Speaker 8>fluid from a seventeen year old. The DNA people are

0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:08.960
<v Speaker 8>pretty boring, to be honest with you.

0:32:09.360 --> 0:32:12.680
<v Speaker 7>So we know at least one der was misled by

0:32:12.720 --> 0:32:15.160
<v Speaker 7>the prosecutor to believe there's vaginal fluid, and so of

0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:18.200
<v Speaker 7>course they're going to end up convicting, not just for

0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:22.360
<v Speaker 7>the teenager's allegations, but the jurors explained afterwards that this

0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:26.160
<v Speaker 7>impacted their deliberations for all these allegations.

0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this was during closing arguments. Could you later

0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:30.160
<v Speaker 2>have objected in the closing argument?

0:32:30.200 --> 0:32:32.120
<v Speaker 1>He still can. Yeah, and he should have. But in

0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:33.800
<v Speaker 1>fact it should be a mistrial.

0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:34.360
<v Speaker 8>And he did it.

0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:36.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they didn't effect that. Yeah, that's crazy to a

0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:37.920
<v Speaker 1>gross misstatement.

0:32:38.160 --> 0:32:41.080
<v Speaker 7>Another problem in the trial is that the forensic analysts

0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:45.040
<v Speaker 7>misrepresented the DNA evidence on the fly of Daniel's pants.

0:32:45.080 --> 0:32:48.040
<v Speaker 7>There was a mixture of DNA from at least three people.

0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:52.280
<v Speaker 7>There were four different stretches of fabrics, two on the

0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:54.440
<v Speaker 7>outside and two on the inside of the fly that

0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:57.240
<v Speaker 7>were swabbed, and it turns out all of them had

0:32:57.440 --> 0:33:01.440
<v Speaker 7>male DNA. And the reason this is signific is the

0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:05.280
<v Speaker 7>prosecution ended up arguing that they claimed Daniel's DNA was

0:33:05.360 --> 0:33:08.320
<v Speaker 7>not there, and so if he had just innocently transferred

0:33:08.400 --> 0:33:13.360
<v Speaker 7>DNA matching the teenager accuser, you would supposedly expect to

0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 7>find Daniel's DNA there. The forensic analysts ended up telling

0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:19.840
<v Speaker 7>the jury there was no male DNA on the inside

0:33:19.880 --> 0:33:22.800
<v Speaker 7>of the fly, and the prosecutor again and again would

0:33:22.840 --> 0:33:26.080
<v Speaker 7>have her say that there's no DNA, so Daniels DNA

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:29.280
<v Speaker 7>is not there, and then argued to the jury that

0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:32.280
<v Speaker 7>this meant it was very unlikely that you could have

0:33:32.480 --> 0:33:36.120
<v Speaker 7>DNA transferring innocently, so the jury was misled into believing

0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:39.200
<v Speaker 7>there was no male DNA. The forensic analyst also was

0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:42.080
<v Speaker 7>wrong when she concluded Daniel's DNA did not contribute. That

0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:45.640
<v Speaker 7>was a major error. The DNA evidence did not allow

0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:48.400
<v Speaker 7>that conclusion. There's such low level of DNA you can't

0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:53.200
<v Speaker 7>tell from whom the DNA came. DNA could be there,

0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:55.800
<v Speaker 7>but at low levels, so you don't detect au genetic regions.

0:33:56.120 --> 0:33:58.640
<v Speaker 7>So anytime you have DNA misrepresented in a trial, it's

0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:01.959
<v Speaker 7>bad because DNA weighs so heavily in the minds of jurors.

0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:06.920
<v Speaker 7>Daniel's attorney never even challenged these claims by the States

0:34:06.960 --> 0:34:09.800
<v Speaker 7>forensic analysts that there was no male DNA or that

0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:11.279
<v Speaker 7>Daniel's DNA wasn't there.

0:34:11.640 --> 0:34:15.280
<v Speaker 1>So this is actually the perfect storm for a wrongful conviction.

0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:21.560
<v Speaker 2>Right. You have the media frenzy reporting inaccuracies left and right,

0:34:21.800 --> 0:34:25.239
<v Speaker 2>making up a narrative that sells advertising time or newspapers.

0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:28.600
<v Speaker 2>You have a jury pool that then is hopelessly tainted.

0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:34.680
<v Speaker 2>You have bumbling and competent and biased investigators throughout this process.

0:34:35.160 --> 0:34:38.200
<v Speaker 2>You have a defense attorney who is I don't want

0:34:38.239 --> 0:34:40.759
<v Speaker 2>to say incompetent, but was not up to the task.

0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:42.680
<v Speaker 2>Because this is as serious as a case could be.

0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:44.400
<v Speaker 2>We're talking about life in prison. I mean, I just

0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:46.719
<v Speaker 2>did the math Daniel's sentence. If he were to serve

0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 2>a sentence, he'd be in prison until the year twenty

0:34:49.120 --> 0:34:52.400
<v Speaker 2>two hundred and seventy seven. Then you have a prosecutor

0:34:52.400 --> 0:34:58.120
<v Speaker 2>who lied, forensic people who lied, or were misstated or inaccurate,

0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:01.200
<v Speaker 2>whatever the word you want to choose. With all of that,

0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:07.239
<v Speaker 2>the outcome was preordained. Did you have any hope that

0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:09.160
<v Speaker 2>you would still be vindicated.

0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:12.239
<v Speaker 5>Well, I always believe in the judicial system. That's why

0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:15.000
<v Speaker 5>I was the cop, and so you know, I believe

0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:18.000
<v Speaker 5>justice will be served. I believe that I'll because honerator.

0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:23.440
<v Speaker 5>I remember vividly there was a dream member that she

0:35:23.600 --> 0:35:26.160
<v Speaker 5>was a female that I was looking, you know, acknowledge.

0:35:26.520 --> 0:35:28.600
<v Speaker 5>Every time they came in the courtroom, I left the courtroom,

0:35:28.680 --> 0:35:32.960
<v Speaker 5>she would look at me, she would smile. And when

0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:36.240
<v Speaker 5>the verdict was coming in and they walked into the courtroom,

0:35:37.480 --> 0:35:40.360
<v Speaker 5>I saw a males, the male cheir members and material

0:35:40.400 --> 0:35:44.680
<v Speaker 5>eye and then I saw her crying hysterically, and I'm

0:35:45.280 --> 0:35:46.520
<v Speaker 5>this is when I'm really.

0:35:46.320 --> 0:35:50.360
<v Speaker 9>Freaking out and I'm shaking under you know what's going on?

0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:52.560
<v Speaker 9>And I'm looking over to my lawyers and I'm like, well,

0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:57.520
<v Speaker 9>more than what's going on, you know, And she's crying hysterically.

0:35:57.640 --> 0:35:59.440
<v Speaker 9>Everyone's crying and remembers that.

0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:03.760
<v Speaker 3>You thought it was a guilty villain.

0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:07.719
<v Speaker 9>Why you cried, you know? And then when they read

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:09.640
<v Speaker 9>docs and Americans, I'm guilty.

0:36:09.719 --> 0:36:12.080
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I was listening a total shock.

0:36:12.200 --> 0:36:15.200
<v Speaker 9>I don't even remember what I in or what happened.

0:36:15.280 --> 0:36:17.520
<v Speaker 9>I just remember I think I just dropped my head

0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:20.320
<v Speaker 9>and you know, like Jod, why you know what was

0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:24.920
<v Speaker 9>going on? And it would oh, I know it's not

0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:28.080
<v Speaker 9>dropped my head, and uh, something that I believe in

0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:30.000
<v Speaker 9>justice would kill me.

0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:39.400
<v Speaker 5>Mm hm.

0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:45.680
<v Speaker 2>We're here because we want to educate the public as

0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:47.200
<v Speaker 2>to how these things could happen, and how it could

0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:50.799
<v Speaker 2>happen to someone you love, and to educate people who

0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:53.000
<v Speaker 2>are going to be serving on juries at some point

0:36:53.040 --> 0:36:56.120
<v Speaker 2>in their life that you know, whoever's listening, it could

0:36:56.120 --> 0:36:57.799
<v Speaker 2>have been you in that jury box, and how would

0:36:57.840 --> 0:36:59.520
<v Speaker 2>you have done. And I'm sure people are saying, well,

0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:02.040
<v Speaker 2>I would never have convicted him, but twelve people did.

0:37:02.840 --> 0:37:05.960
<v Speaker 2>And how could they get it so wrong? How could

0:37:05.960 --> 0:37:09.719
<v Speaker 2>they look at things that are so clearly black and

0:37:09.800 --> 0:37:14.960
<v Speaker 2>white and go, yeah, I know it's false, but you know,

0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:18.040
<v Speaker 2>and they had a complicated task. They're looking at things

0:37:18.080 --> 0:37:20.680
<v Speaker 2>that they know are false, right, They're looking at testimony

0:37:20.760 --> 0:37:23.000
<v Speaker 2>that they know is false from a number of different people.

0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:26.160
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, they're being presented with quote unquote

0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:30.040
<v Speaker 2>evidence by people who they respect, prosecutors and forensic people,

0:37:30.120 --> 0:37:34.799
<v Speaker 2>and so they're stuck in a conflict. But as citizens

0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:39.160
<v Speaker 2>and as everyone again potential jury remembers, your duty is

0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:43.000
<v Speaker 2>to if there's doubt, to acquit you know, it has

0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:45.680
<v Speaker 2>to be beyond a reasonable doubt. That's something we all

0:37:45.800 --> 0:37:49.600
<v Speaker 2>learn in high school. Right beyond a reasonable doubt. Not

0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:50.840
<v Speaker 2>maybe it could be.

0:37:51.080 --> 0:37:54.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. It's a conflict. I'm not sure, you know.

0:37:54.160 --> 0:37:56.279
<v Speaker 2>And then there's that quote that I can never say

0:37:56.360 --> 0:37:58.960
<v Speaker 2>enough times better that one hundred guilty men should go

0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:02.319
<v Speaker 2>free than that one is and should suffer. And that's

0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:05.319
<v Speaker 2>sort of been turned on its head. But Daniel, here

0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:08.279
<v Speaker 2>you are. You're stuck in a situation that would break

0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:10.080
<v Speaker 2>I think most people.

0:38:10.840 --> 0:38:13.279
<v Speaker 1>How do you do it? Day by day? How? I mean,

0:38:13.360 --> 0:38:15.680
<v Speaker 1>how are you getting along on the inside?

0:38:16.080 --> 0:38:19.280
<v Speaker 5>Being a Christian? I think there's a plan for everything.

0:38:20.040 --> 0:38:22.280
<v Speaker 5>And I used to hate hearing that as a cliche

0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:25.480
<v Speaker 5>and just I was cornering what things happened for a reason,

0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:28.000
<v Speaker 5>and I used to hate that. But I think there's

0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:30.239
<v Speaker 5>a greater purpose in God, and I think God has

0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:34.040
<v Speaker 5>a plan for me, And you know, be down in

0:38:34.080 --> 0:38:36.960
<v Speaker 5>my heart, I know I'm on me free. I know

0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:40.640
<v Speaker 5>justice will be served as much as I believe in

0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:43.120
<v Speaker 5>that system, and now I have a little bit of

0:38:43.239 --> 0:38:45.680
<v Speaker 5>hope in there, and I believe it's going to happen.

0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:49.120
<v Speaker 5>And with that said, I can be here, if possible,

0:38:49.239 --> 0:38:51.520
<v Speaker 5>without any of all my loved ones and supporters. So

0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:54.800
<v Speaker 5>everyone that has come along the way. It's a blessing.

0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:58.920
<v Speaker 5>It's just the act of God right there and finding

0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:01.560
<v Speaker 5>never gave up, never had a thought of giving up.

0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:05.520
<v Speaker 5>So I know I'm gonna be free. I'm not gonna

0:39:05.600 --> 0:39:08.120
<v Speaker 5>let this, you know, change you who I am in

0:39:08.280 --> 0:39:11.280
<v Speaker 5>that day when I'm free, you better bet your blood.

0:39:11.280 --> 0:39:14.680
<v Speaker 5>And I'm gonna fight for all the wrongful convicted people

0:39:14.760 --> 0:39:17.319
<v Speaker 5>out there. If I have a platform I'm gonna fight from.

0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:20.719
<v Speaker 5>I've been on built days at the cop and now

0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:25.200
<v Speaker 5>I'm Aconvic and so I'm definitely gonna do my best

0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:27.759
<v Speaker 5>to help everyone out there in the world that's in

0:39:27.840 --> 0:39:28.320
<v Speaker 5>my position.

0:39:28.920 --> 0:39:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's gonna be an honor to work with you.

0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:37.000
<v Speaker 2>So what happens next and how can people help?

0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:39.680
<v Speaker 6>I suggest people, if they want to learn more, go

0:39:39.800 --> 0:39:43.239
<v Speaker 6>to free Daniel holds Claw dot com. My Facebook Jenny

0:39:43.280 --> 0:39:46.800
<v Speaker 6>holds Claw is public, so I post all the facts

0:39:46.840 --> 0:39:49.960
<v Speaker 6>and information and give daily updates of what's going.

0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:50.640
<v Speaker 4>On with his case.

0:39:50.880 --> 0:39:51.560
<v Speaker 1>Let me just reread that.

0:39:51.640 --> 0:39:54.200
<v Speaker 2>So it's free Daniel Holtz Claw dot com, which is

0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:57.920
<v Speaker 2>free Daniel h O l t z c l a

0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:01.799
<v Speaker 2>W dot com, or or go to Jenny Hols Claud

0:40:01.800 --> 0:40:06.880
<v Speaker 2>which is j N N Y h o Ltzclaw on Facebook.

0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:07.280
<v Speaker 4>Correct.

0:40:07.280 --> 0:40:09.320
<v Speaker 6>Another thing I want to point on too is we

0:40:09.400 --> 0:40:11.360
<v Speaker 6>have a petition going. We have over thirty five thousand

0:40:11.400 --> 0:40:13.880
<v Speaker 6>signatures right now, and you can find that on my

0:40:13.960 --> 0:40:16.439
<v Speaker 6>Facebook or freading holds cloud dot com for the link

0:40:16.480 --> 0:40:17.960
<v Speaker 6>to actually sign the petition, and.

0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Of course I'll be posting about it as well on

0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:23.640
<v Speaker 2>my Instagram at it's Jason flam Erica. You look like

0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:24.719
<v Speaker 2>you've got something to add.

0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:27.880
<v Speaker 7>The main point for me was how I feel Daniel's

0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:33.279
<v Speaker 7>case is a tragedy because our society's noblest desires to

0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:37.400
<v Speaker 7>end racism and sexism and police brutality ended up convicting

0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:39.400
<v Speaker 7>it innocent man. So that is a tragedy where a

0:40:39.440 --> 0:40:43.000
<v Speaker 7>good thing about our society wanting to care about victims

0:40:43.040 --> 0:40:47.200
<v Speaker 7>of sexual assault led people down this path to torture

0:40:47.239 --> 0:40:48.920
<v Speaker 7>an innocent man and send into prison.

0:40:50.239 --> 0:40:51.959
<v Speaker 2>At this point in the show, this is the point

0:40:52.040 --> 0:40:54.080
<v Speaker 2>that I think, I always say is my favorite part

0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:57.759
<v Speaker 2>of the show, where I get to thank each of

0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:01.640
<v Speaker 2>you again for being here any holes, Claus sister and

0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:08.560
<v Speaker 2>freedom fighter, and Erica Fush biologist and dedicated activists to

0:41:08.760 --> 0:41:11.719
<v Speaker 2>righting these wrongs, and of course you Daniel and I'd

0:41:11.840 --> 0:41:14.239
<v Speaker 2>like to uh so again thank you all for being here.

0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:16.120
<v Speaker 2>And then Daniel, I want to turn it over to

0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:18.960
<v Speaker 2>you for this is the part of the show where

0:41:18.960 --> 0:41:22.279
<v Speaker 2>I turned my microphone off and I get to just

0:41:22.440 --> 0:41:25.680
<v Speaker 2>listen and you can just you know, wrap it up

0:41:25.680 --> 0:41:28.279
<v Speaker 2>in any way you want and talk about anything you

0:41:28.400 --> 0:41:31.000
<v Speaker 2>want and make sure we didn't miss anything as well.

0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:34.760
<v Speaker 2>So thank you, thank you again for sharing and calling

0:41:34.880 --> 0:41:38.279
<v Speaker 2>in from prison, and now turn over to you.

0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:42.400
<v Speaker 5>All right, I'll just try to be quick out versus

0:41:42.560 --> 0:41:45.040
<v Speaker 5>thank you for having us. I'm my loved ones and

0:41:45.800 --> 0:41:48.600
<v Speaker 5>everyone close to come on board and be able to

0:41:48.640 --> 0:41:53.839
<v Speaker 5>speak my side instance, I appreciate it. Jason just to add,

0:41:53.960 --> 0:41:57.320
<v Speaker 5>you know, a real fast and Jase is so complex

0:41:57.440 --> 0:42:00.920
<v Speaker 5>and that I want to really articulate is the media.

0:42:01.360 --> 0:42:03.279
<v Speaker 5>And if someone asked me, well, why do you think

0:42:03.280 --> 0:42:07.000
<v Speaker 5>you're wroughly convicted Daniel, I'd probably say, to be honest

0:42:07.000 --> 0:42:09.239
<v Speaker 5>with you, is just the media. I think the media

0:42:09.280 --> 0:42:12.120
<v Speaker 5>plays a huge factor in people's perception. Like I said

0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:16.680
<v Speaker 5>earlier in the show, people Watch Today. You know TV

0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:19.600
<v Speaker 5>shows where it's Law and Order, n c C and

0:42:19.719 --> 0:42:22.280
<v Speaker 5>c I S. You know all those types of shows,

0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:24.600
<v Speaker 5>and they believe you know the stuff happens in the

0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:27.680
<v Speaker 5>courtor Well, that's TV shows. Those are movies. That's not

0:42:27.840 --> 0:42:31.200
<v Speaker 5>the reality of what happens. And atual courtrooms. People believe

0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:35.799
<v Speaker 5>that this defendant, the high profile on national television, Oh man,

0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:38.719
<v Speaker 5>he must be guilty. Oh and then the defense lawyer,

0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:40.759
<v Speaker 5>oh man, he's grow up. Defense lawyer. He's just trying

0:42:40.760 --> 0:42:42.160
<v Speaker 5>to get paid. Here's just going to try to get

0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:44.359
<v Speaker 5>him off on a technicality. Well that's not the case,

0:42:45.000 --> 0:42:48.319
<v Speaker 5>you know, So please just don't believe into the media.

0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:51.400
<v Speaker 5>Don't believe in that mass medium and manipulation where they

0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:53.080
<v Speaker 5>they're feeding you these one.

0:42:52.960 --> 0:42:54.479
<v Speaker 3>Minute sections where they can edit.

0:42:54.480 --> 0:42:56.920
<v Speaker 5>And crop and wherever they want to do, and the

0:42:57.000 --> 0:42:58.480
<v Speaker 5>majority of them are just loosen.

0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:02.640
<v Speaker 3>The prosecute decided. People believe the prosecutions are the good

0:43:02.719 --> 0:43:04.120
<v Speaker 3>guys about all the cases.

0:43:04.239 --> 0:43:06.520
<v Speaker 5>It's not that they care about. All they care about

0:43:06.560 --> 0:43:07.280
<v Speaker 5>is fectionary.

0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:10.759
<v Speaker 3>So I just asked that you guys please look into

0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:11.560
<v Speaker 3>the facts.

0:43:11.239 --> 0:43:11.760
<v Speaker 1>Of the cases.

0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:14.319
<v Speaker 3>Don't you know the famous quotas don't judge a book

0:43:14.360 --> 0:43:18.440
<v Speaker 3>Bud's cover. You know you've seen this mass media, you know,

0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:22.040
<v Speaker 3>case going on in your communion scene in the national

0:43:22.120 --> 0:43:22.800
<v Speaker 3>news CNN.

0:43:23.000 --> 0:43:26.240
<v Speaker 9>You know Box News have sixty seconds remaining.

0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:29.600
<v Speaker 3>Big time media outlets just don't jump to the assumption

0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:31.640
<v Speaker 3>that this person guilty looking in the facts of the

0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:35.840
<v Speaker 3>case and actually, you know, do your homework and that

0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:38.719
<v Speaker 3>would definitely does you know, come out with your own

0:43:38.760 --> 0:43:41.160
<v Speaker 3>opinion and don't don't believe what the media. I always

0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:42.360
<v Speaker 3>try to protrude.

0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:44.359
<v Speaker 5>So I know it's about to hang up right now.

0:43:44.480 --> 0:43:46.400
<v Speaker 5>But again, thank you everyone and all the.

0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:47.920
<v Speaker 9>Loved ones, with all the fighters that came along.

0:43:48.000 --> 0:43:49.719
<v Speaker 3>It's a spiracle that where I'm at right now.

0:43:49.920 --> 0:43:51.000
<v Speaker 9>It's big to you, guys.

0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:52.239
<v Speaker 3>I love you guys.

0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:54.399
<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much for being there.

0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:56.320
<v Speaker 7>Here we have thirty seconds remaining.

0:43:56.840 --> 0:44:00.080
<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna continue to fight. Uh never give up, and

0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:03.239
<v Speaker 3>no one will be So thank you everyone out there

0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:04.040
<v Speaker 3>and been listening.

0:44:04.480 --> 0:44:06.560
<v Speaker 4>I love love you.

0:44:06.640 --> 0:44:07.040
<v Speaker 2>Daniel.

0:44:07.440 --> 0:44:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Hi, Daniel, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:21.120
<v Speaker 1>Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.

0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:24.400
<v Speaker 2>And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and

0:44:24.480 --> 0:44:27.160
<v Speaker 2>I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:29.120
<v Speaker 2>important cause and helping.

0:44:28.960 --> 0:44:32.520
<v Speaker 1>To prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

0:44:32.600 --> 0:44:35.640
<v Speaker 1>org to learn how to donate. And get involved. I'd

0:44:35.719 --> 0:44:38.800
<v Speaker 1>like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:41.359
<v Speaker 1>The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

0:44:41.440 --> 0:44:43.080
<v Speaker 1>nominated composer Jay Ralph.

0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:46.200
<v Speaker 2>Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:50.560
<v Speaker 2>and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

0:44:50.680 --> 0:44:53.680
<v Speaker 2>Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:56.319
<v Speaker 2>and association with Signal Company Number one