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Speaker 1: At two a m.

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Speaker 2: On June eighteenth, twenty fourteen, Oklahoma City police officer Daniel

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Speaker 2: Holsclaw finished up his shift. On his way home in

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Speaker 2: his police cruiser, he pulled over fifty seven year old

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Speaker 2: Janny Liggins for a traffic violation at a busy intersection

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Speaker 2: where surveillance footage shows a normal traffic stop. Around three

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Speaker 2: hours later, Miss Wiggins filed a complaint claiming that an

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Speaker 2: officer forced her into oral sodomy. Her mouth swap came

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Speaker 2: up empty for Daniel's DNA, as did his uniform for hers,

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Speaker 2: but this allegation inexplicably launched an investigation focused on at

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Speaker 2: risk African American women that Daniel had made contact with,

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Speaker 2: bringing forth twenty one alleged victims, including one man. Daniel

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Speaker 2: became a rallying cry for everyone who doesn't want to

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Speaker 2: see any cop abusing their power or sexually assaulting women.

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Speaker 2: It all seemed to fit a grim and growing narrative, and.

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Speaker 1: A media circus ensued.

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Speaker 2: At first, and I'm embarrassed to admit this, I jumped

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Speaker 2: right on board, thinking good, they got him, But upon

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Speaker 2: the persistent urging of his sister Jennifer, and admittedly through

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Speaker 2: my own reluctant closer. Look, we now have a case

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Speaker 2: that turns that abusive cop narrative right on its head.

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Speaker 2: In this amazing and alarming episode, we will speak with

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Speaker 2: Daniel's sister, Jennifer Holsklaw biologist Erika Feusch, and will also

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Speaker 2: take a phone call from an undisclosed correctional facility from

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Speaker 2: former Oklahoma City police officer Daniel Holsklaw, who is currently

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Speaker 2: serving a two hundred and sixty three year prison sentence

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Speaker 2: in a maximum security prison under assumed name for crimes

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Speaker 2: he did not commit. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back

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Speaker 2: to wrongful Conviction. Today's episode is going to mess up

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Speaker 2: your perceptions of everything, just as it did to me.

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Speaker 2: It's a tragic miscarriage of justice, but it's also an

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Speaker 2: insane journey through through a very different lens than.

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Speaker 1: We've ever covered before.

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Speaker 2: And today we're going to be talking about the case

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Speaker 2: of Daniel Holsklaw, wrongfully convicted, a former police officer from

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Speaker 2: Oklahoma City, and he's on the phone. So Daniel, I'm

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Speaker 2: sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're on the phone.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate you guys having me on and my loved

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Speaker 3: one and be able to have out the opportunity and

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Speaker 3: definitely think and express.

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Speaker 2: My NiTi well, we hope to be part of the solution.

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Speaker 2: And with us in the studio, we have two extraordinary women.

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Speaker 2: One is a biologist, Erica Fusch, welcome.

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Speaker 4: To the show, Thank you, Jason.

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Speaker 2: And with her is one of the most persistent and

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Speaker 2: brave women I've come across, the sister of Daniel. Jennifer's

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Speaker 2: here and without you, I can honestly say this wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be happening.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for giving us the time.

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Speaker 2: Nor your courage is inspiring. And Daniel's same for you.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about this crazy case. And this was

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Speaker 2: a national news story, international, I guess right. And at

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Speaker 2: the time, and I'm really sorry to say this day,

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Speaker 2: but at the time that I saw it had come

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Speaker 2: across my screen, I was like, oh, well, I mean, okay,

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Speaker 2: they got this guy, you know, like, because the narrative

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Speaker 2: was always the same and me, of all people should

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Speaker 2: not have bought into it. But it was an inexorable

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Speaker 2: barrage of information that was all one sided. And Daniel,

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Speaker 2: your sister, your amazing sister, you know, wouldn't leave me alone.

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Speaker 2: And at first I was like, can you leave me alone?

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Speaker 2: And she was like, no, I can't. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: but I want you to. And then once I got

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Speaker 2: into it and I started talking to Eric and I

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Speaker 2: started talking to others, and I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: he's as innocent as could be.

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Speaker 1: This is terrible. That's why we're here.

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Speaker 2: You're on the force for three years. And this whole

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Speaker 2: thing happened in what year, twenty fourteen, which was a

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Speaker 2: very fraught time. So we say a lot of controversy

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Speaker 2: around Ferguson and other which you know used to this day.

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Speaker 2: Of course, there's a lot of stuff that still has

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Speaker 2: to be worked out as it relates to the relationships

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Speaker 2: between various police departments and the people they serve and protect.

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Speaker 5: It was rough, you know, they're at the what you

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Speaker 5: centered far as the atmosphere and the environment at that

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Speaker 5: time with the Ferguson deal, I mean, cops down days

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Speaker 5: are perceived as racist, corrupt, something's wrong with them. It's

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Speaker 5: not like back in the old days where God costs

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Speaker 5: were honored, you know, as a priceful job. You know this,

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Speaker 5: this this guy is a good guy. That's some more

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Speaker 5: along the lines of being skeptical. You know, and so

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Speaker 5: again the Ferguson deal, what happened then the Baltimore deal

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Speaker 5: was going on there, so it was literally by as

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Speaker 5: a storm and that situation.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I grew up, you know, obviously respecting anyone

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Speaker 2: in a uniform, but especially police officers. And you know,

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Speaker 2: there are some bad apples. So of course when that

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Speaker 2: stuff goes gets out on video, the public is going

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Speaker 2: to react because it's it's a betrayal of a very

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Speaker 2: serious level of trust. But is not to say that

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Speaker 2: the overwhelming majority of police officers aren't out there doing

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Speaker 2: the good job, risking their lives and performing a service

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Speaker 2: that we all need. You were ultimately convicted of false

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Speaker 2: charges related to eight different cases, So they got it

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Speaker 2: wrong eight times, and actually more than that when you

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Speaker 2: think about it, because there were numerous charges on most

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Speaker 2: of those cases anyway, or all of them. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: they got it wrong eight times, whatever number. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's really that's scary, Jennifer, you want to jump in.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it was definitely shocking to hear these allegations,

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Speaker 6: especially the first one. And the reason why I am

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Speaker 6: so passionate about is because when this first happened, I

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Speaker 6: wanted to know everything.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to read, all the transcripts.

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Speaker 6: I wanted to watch anything that can get my hand

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Speaker 6: on to see could my brother have really have done this?

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Speaker 6: And everything that I've looked into, everything that I've read

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Speaker 6: and knowing Daniel, and not just because he's my brother,

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Speaker 6: but just because the facts of everything that I put

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Speaker 6: my hands on or I could touch, nothing pointed to

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Speaker 6: Daniel's guilt.

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Speaker 4: And that's what really got me.

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Speaker 6: And I say this to this day, if there was

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Speaker 6: anything that proved or showed anything, I would back out

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Speaker 6: and see, Dane, you deserve every second being in prison

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Speaker 6: forever doing this to a woman. And I haven't found

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Speaker 6: one single thing that pointed me to say that Dale

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Speaker 6: did any of the crimes that he has been convicted of.

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Speaker 6: And so that's why I am very passionate about this

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Speaker 6: and I will fight till the day I die to

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Speaker 6: get my brother out.

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Speaker 2: So this started when Janny Liggins. She was a woman

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Speaker 2: that Daniel pulled over. Right, And Jenny, you've obviously been

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Speaker 2: so deep in this ever since it happened. You want

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Speaker 2: to walk us through this because it's really weird, right.

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Speaker 2: The video evidence doesn't match, the descriptions, don't match like

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Speaker 2: what happened.

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Speaker 4: So Danielle got off of work about two am. That

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Speaker 4: was his normal shift.

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Speaker 6: And it was proven and trial that when Dale would

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Speaker 6: get off of work they looked through his system. He

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Speaker 6: would normally just turn off his laptop and head home.

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Speaker 6: It was nothing that farius that he did that night

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Speaker 6: that he pulled Jannie Liggins over on his way home

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Speaker 6: not too far from the police department. He saw a

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Speaker 6: car swerving. Tenant windows limo tint at two am, you

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Speaker 6: can't see through those tenant windows, So it's not like

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Speaker 6: Daniel targeted a woman driving, so he pulled over, questioned her.

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Speaker 6: He had asked her if he could search her car.

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Speaker 6: He brought her to his police vehicle and then he

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Speaker 6: searched the car. He did say that he saw hydro

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Speaker 6: codon bottles and then he did a whole search. Is

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Speaker 6: there anything underneath your bra The class been shake and

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Speaker 6: she did that looking for drugs, looking for drugs and

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Speaker 6: any weapons. And everything that Daniel claimed had happened matched

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Speaker 6: up to what Jannie Leggan said. Besides the sexual assault,

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Speaker 6: Jennie Liggins claimed that when she was in the back

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Speaker 6: of Daniel's vehicle that Dale made her perform oral sex

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Speaker 6: right where he had pulled her over. There's a security

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Speaker 6: building that there's a grainy video on YouTube right now

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Speaker 6: that you can see the traffic stop and you can't

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Speaker 6: see everything. You can to see a police officer pulling

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Speaker 6: her over. He had his lights on, he never turned

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Speaker 6: his lights off. And it was right on a busy

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Speaker 6: intersection off of fiftieth in Lincoln in Oklahoma City. And

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Speaker 6: there was actually an off duty cop that does like

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Speaker 6: a side shop that is a security for that security building.

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Speaker 6: So it's not like Daniel pulled this person over on

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Speaker 6: a side street. It was a busy intersection and Daniel

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Speaker 6: let her go. And the following morning is when she

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Speaker 6: made the claims about the sexual assault.

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Speaker 7: A little later that morning, actually, I think, yeah, free hours, which.

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Speaker 2: Is a significant point, right because we have with us

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Speaker 2: in the room, as I introduced you before, a respected

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Speaker 2: biologist whose works in this field.

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Speaker 7: Well, looking at this from the biologist, what was important

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Speaker 7: for me to see is that Jannie Liggans made claims

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Speaker 7: that were not supported by the forensic evidence. She had

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Speaker 7: a same kit done that morning and was interviewed by

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Speaker 7: a female sex crimes detective and the same kit ultimately

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Speaker 7: came back negative. There was no DNA from Daniel found

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Speaker 7: around Janie's mouth and the swabs there, and during the

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Speaker 7: trial the forensic analyst actually said unfortunately there was no

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Speaker 7: DNA from Daniel, which showed her bias. Janie Niggins had

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Speaker 7: said that Daniel had placed his hands on the car

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Speaker 7: and she had placed her hands in the patrol car,

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Speaker 7: but fingerprint analysis and DNA was not found matching either

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Speaker 7: of them on the car, so her descriptions did not

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Speaker 7: match what was found with the forensic evidence. There was

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Speaker 7: no forensic evidence supporting what she said happened, and later

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Speaker 7: it was discovered after this stop that Daniel did. When

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Speaker 7: Jannie talked with the sex crimes detective Detective Davis, Jannie

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Speaker 7: disclosed that she had been smoking pot earlier that day,

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Speaker 7: and she described the police officer as having blonde hair

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Speaker 7: and being shorter.

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Speaker 4: It just didn't match right Daniel.

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Speaker 2: I mean, she must have been high as a kite,

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Speaker 2: because if Daniel's blonde, then you know, I'm the Prime

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Speaker 2: Minister of Egypt, you know what I mean. Like, he

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Speaker 2: has dark hair obviously, and Shorty's six to two, So

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Speaker 2: none of this stuff makes any sense. How could you

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Speaker 2: get that wrong. You get a lot of things wrong.

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Speaker 2: You can't get blonde to black hair wrong.

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Speaker 7: And ultimately the detectives used Daniel's own police records specifically

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Speaker 7: looking for African American women he had stopped who had

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Speaker 7: criminal histories, and the detectives went and questioned over forty

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Speaker 7: women fitting this profile and then got allegations from them

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Speaker 7: to add to this initial allegation they had.

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Speaker 1: So then they went fishing.

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Speaker 8: Hello, this is detective days.

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Speaker 6: I have received a tiptive being clear on the thumb

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Speaker 6: when we talked.

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Speaker 5: Oyah, quite clear.

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Speaker 7: But like I said, that's the only time that.

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Speaker 2: I had that happened to me.

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Speaker 8: Both they said to me that was.

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Speaker 5: A black office.

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Speaker 8: I work in sext fronts and I've been working in

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Speaker 8: some cases and I received a tip that you may

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Speaker 8: have been sexually assaulted by a police officer.

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Speaker 7: Because I've had to go to a lot of women

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Speaker 7: they didn't come forward, I've had.

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Speaker 6: To go find and only one race. That's what infuriates me.

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Speaker 6: Why did they only question one race? If they were

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Speaker 6: really wanting to figure out if he's a serial rapist,

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Speaker 6: why didn't the other races matter?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 4: Why did they only question one?

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Speaker 1: So?

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Speaker 4: Right, that's very frustrating for me.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's disturbing because the lieutenant who was in charge

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Speaker 7: of the investigation, and it says this during the trial,

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Speaker 7: the lieutenant specifically looked back through six months of Daniel's

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Speaker 7: police records and created a list of the African American women,

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Speaker 7: specifically African American women quote who had a drug history,

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Speaker 7: prostitution history, or a significant criminal history whom Daniel had stopped.

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Speaker 7: So people presumed Daniel was guilty of racism, when in fact,

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Speaker 7: it was the detectives who were targeting African American women

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Speaker 7: at risk African American women, encouraging them to make allegations

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Speaker 7: against Daniel as they were railroading Daniel, right.

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Speaker 2: And they brought these women in and the videos are

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Speaker 2: as troubling as the audience who's listening now probably thinks

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Speaker 2: they are right. There's one who's stuck in my head.

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Speaker 2: I've forgotten her name, but who came in and said

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Speaker 2: the seven times she was asked, did anything happen? And

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Speaker 2: seven times she said no, And then eventually they got

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Speaker 2: her to change her story.

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Speaker 7: She then said that the only officer who'd been inappropriate

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Speaker 7: was a black police officer several years ago who exposed

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Speaker 7: himself to her, and then the detective kept on questioning,

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Speaker 7: and ultimately this woman then claimed that Daniel had wanted

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Speaker 7: her to lift up her bra. He didn't say anything,

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Speaker 7: but she just did it, and that was the whole allegation.

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Speaker 7: He didn't even tell her. She just thought that she's

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Speaker 7: supposed to. So that was glossed over by the detectives.

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Speaker 7: I don't think that the detective reported that she actually

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Speaker 7: accused a black police officer, just jumped instead right ahead

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Speaker 7: to saying that Daniel had done something right.

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Speaker 2: And the number were just summarily dismissed because they were

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Speaker 2: so ridiculous that they couldn't even take him to trial.

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Speaker 7: There were eight people who made allegations against Daniel, and

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Speaker 7: those allegations were weeded out right away, And so these

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Speaker 7: were eight allegations made that never went a trial, and

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Speaker 7: then the trial there were thirteen allegations. Five of them

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Speaker 7: led to acquittals, and the eight that ended up causing

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Speaker 7: convictions had numerous problems in them. Like Jenny mentioned one

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Speaker 7: of the women saying that it was a shorter police

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Speaker 7: officer who was black, a shade darker than her own

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Speaker 7: skin color, and leone got the most number of YEW

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Speaker 7: years for her allegations.

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Speaker 2: Right, so you were mistaken for a short, black guy.

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Speaker 2: And anyone who hasn't already seen pictures of Daniel take

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Speaker 2: a look. I mean he as a linebacker and he's

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Speaker 2: the six to two, very bulky guy who's Asian.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is not.

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Speaker 2: Confusing, right, this is nuts. This is absolutely nuts. But

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Speaker 2: with the sheer number of allegations seeming so overwhelming, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of understandable how that could have continued to cast

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Speaker 2: out on Daniel's innocence. After all, just because one allegation

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Speaker 2: is doubtful does not disprove another, which is why we

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Speaker 2: need to take a look at each allegation individually. I

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Speaker 2: also want to be clear that we're not here to

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Speaker 2: point at the alleged victim's life choices as evidence of.

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Speaker 1: Credibility or lack thereof.

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Speaker 2: Now, initially twenty one accusers came forward, but eight were

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Speaker 2: eliminated immediately as false allegations against Daniel. For example, one

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Speaker 2: of them alleged that Daniel had used his position as

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Speaker 2: a police officer as sexually assault her after he had

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Speaker 2: been put on administrative leave. Others later admitted to lying

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Speaker 2: including Shenise Barksdale.

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Speaker 5: So he never touched you.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen why.

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Speaker 9: I just felt bad for her, and I just wanted

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Speaker 9: to know like she wasn't the only victim or anything

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Speaker 9: you feel bad for whom I.

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Speaker 2: Don't know about the fifty cents and you found out

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Speaker 2: about her from one Facebook. Five of the remaining thirteen

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Speaker 2: accusations resulted in acquittal. For privacy protection, we will refer

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Speaker 2: to each of these accusers as quote acquittal and.

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Speaker 1: A corresponding number.

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Speaker 2: Acquittal one told investigators about an alleged assault made by

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Speaker 2: an officer in an area that Daniel had never patrolled.

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Speaker 2: When investigators fed her details and a timeline to match

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Speaker 2: Daniel's beat, she denied that story until getting arrested for

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Speaker 2: unrelated drug charges, at which time she decided to agree

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Speaker 2: to change her story to match the different location. Acquittal

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Speaker 2: two claimed to have flashed Officer holst Law her breasts,

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Speaker 2: thinking that was what he wanted, even though he had

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Speaker 2: not requested it. She denied any inappropriate contact. Then she

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Speaker 2: told investigators about an alleged indecent exposure by a black

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Speaker 2: police officer. Acquittal three claimed that Daniel had raped her

303
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Speaker 2: for twenty to thirty minutes and orally sodomized her through

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Speaker 2: the unzipped fly of his pants. This alleged incident would

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Speaker 2: have happened just hours before the Janny Liggans traffic stop. However,

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Speaker 2: there was no match to her DNA either, as well

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Speaker 2: as no evidence of body fluid on Daniel's fly. She

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00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,720
Speaker 2: also said that her attacker had ticketed her one year prior.

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Speaker 2: Daniel had never.

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Speaker 1: Ticketed this woman.

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Speaker 2: Acquittal four claimed that Daniel groped her breast, but described

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Speaker 2: the alleged groper as quote part Hispanic and having quote

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Speaker 2: slightly gray hair. She also testified in quote that lying

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Speaker 2: and giving false social security numbers to the police.

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Speaker 1: Is appropriate behavior.

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Speaker 2: Lastly, Daniel friended a message with Acquittal five on Facebook

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Speaker 2: after an incident involving an overdose on PCP in which

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Speaker 2: Acquittal five disposed of the substance by eating a glass

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Speaker 2: vial full of it. In fact, Daniel escorted her life

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Speaker 2: saving ambulance ride to the hospital.

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Speaker 1: In her police.

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Speaker 2: Interview, she claimed that while she was recovering from that incident,

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Speaker 2: Daniel allegedly forced her into oralsodomy while she was handcuffed

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Speaker 2: to her bed in a busy hospital. This is what

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Speaker 2: she said on her way out of that interview.

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Speaker 1: So this is good evidence.

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Speaker 6: Well you tell me, I think so, because I mean,

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Speaker 6: even if he didn't like even right, no about.

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Speaker 7: Eleven, he fit yea.

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Speaker 2: So all five of these allegations ended in acquittal of

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Speaker 2: the original twenty one accusers. Eight allegations resulted in convictions,

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Speaker 2: and we are going to now one by one examine

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Speaker 2: the facts of each case. Again, for protection of privacy,

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Speaker 2: we refer to all as conviction and a corresponding number.

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Speaker 2: You're already aware of Conviction one. Jenny Leggins, whom we

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Speaker 2: covered earlier. Conviction two, alleged that Daniel had orally sodomized

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Speaker 2: her near a public park, then transported her inside the

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Speaker 2: public park by a closed school, and proceeded to rape

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Speaker 2: her for five to ten minutes. This is how she

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Speaker 2: described her attacker.

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Speaker 9: Tell me your description of him.

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Speaker 6: He's black man, muscular, muscular, So you think he's shorter

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Speaker 6: than you?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, okay, I'll tell you.

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Speaker 5: Even what kind of car did he have?

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Speaker 6: A black and white black and white cor Oklahoma City

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Speaker 6: Police Corps.

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Speaker 2: Daniel also had made contact with her at some point

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Speaker 2: near that old school in the public park, but when

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Speaker 2: he did. His Automatic Vehicle locator or AVL, a GPS

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Speaker 2: device attracts the movements of police cars, says that his

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Speaker 2: car stopped for less than four minutes, not five to ten.

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Speaker 2: He's also six two and half white, half Japanese, definitely

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Speaker 2: not shorter than five eleven, and definitely not black. Conviction

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Speaker 2: three claimed that Daniel allowed her to drive under the

356
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Speaker 2: influence while he followed her to her relative's house, at

357
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Speaker 2: which point she alleged that he drove her to the

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Speaker 2: end of the street.

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Speaker 1: And raped her. However, his AVL tells us that he

360
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 1: never drove on that street. Further, the duration of the

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Speaker 1: alleged rape.

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Speaker 2: Changed from quote a long time to quote five to

363
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Speaker 2: ten minutes, and then a trial to quote maybe about

364
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,639
Speaker 2: three minutes or so. But when she and Daniel did

365
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,440
Speaker 2: have an interaction, his AVL still would only allow for

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00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,439
Speaker 2: a window of less than three minutes for a possible attack.

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Speaker 2: Conviction four alleged that when Daniel raped and orally sodomized

368
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Speaker 2: her in her room in a house, that she wiped

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Speaker 2: phlegm from that oralsodomy on a chair. The swab from

370
00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,200
Speaker 2: the chair, however, revealed the DNA profile of a mail

371
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 2: that was not Daniel. Conviction five claimed that her alleged

372
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Speaker 2: attacker drove the older model Oklahoma City PD black and white. However,

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00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,880
Speaker 2: Daniel drove the newer all black Cruiser. Conviction six testified

374
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Speaker 2: that her attacker was a tan color like someone from India,

375
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Speaker 2: not dark, but not pale. She also claimed that he

376
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 2: made her expose herself. However, a witness claimed that she

377
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 2: was handcuffed at the start of their encounter. For Conviction seven,

378
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,360
Speaker 2: there's no Dan Evans to speak of, but she did

379
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Speaker 2: change her story several times. At first, an officer allegedly

380
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Speaker 2: fondled her breast over her clothing. Then at a preliminary hearing,

381
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Speaker 2: she claimed that the groping was skinned to skin contact.

382
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 2: At trial, it was back to her over the clothing allegation. Finally,

383
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Speaker 2: the crux of the prosecution's case Conviction eight, a seventeen

384
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: year old girl who claimed that Daniel pat searched her,

385
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 2: inserted a finger in her vagina, and proceeded to rape

386
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Speaker 2: her through the unzipped fly of his buckled pants on

387
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 2: her mother's porch. This is what she had told her

388
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Speaker 2: mother about their encounter.

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Speaker 9: She said, it's really hot.

390
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 5: Cop he told me I had a couple of one,

391
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Speaker 5: but said, don't worry about it. She's really nicely affecting.

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Speaker 2: No body fluid was detected or observed on the fly

393
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,159
Speaker 2: of his pants. However, a microscopic trace amount of her

394
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 2: DNA was found on his fly, along with DNA from

395
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,280
Speaker 2: at least two other individuals, including at least one unknown male,

396
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 2: which goes to support the defensive theory that the presence

397
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Speaker 2: of her DNA on his fly can be explained by

398
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 2: secondary transfer transfer of DNA to objects or people through

399
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Speaker 2: an intermediary.

400
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 7: The main evidence in the case was DNA found on

401
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 7: the fly of Daniel's pants, but the DNA evidence on

402
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 7: the fly of the pants included no evidence of body fluid,

403
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 7: and ultimately, Daniel was accused of raping one woman through

404
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 7: the unzipped fly of those buckled pants, and there's no stains,

405
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 7: no deposits on them at all. That would make it

406
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,159
Speaker 7: very unlikely that there had been any kind of sexual

407
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 7: assault to be able to give evidence. That's just a

408
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 7: low quantity of DNA that matches most closely with indirect

409
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 7: transfer of DNA.

410
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 2: Is it possible for Daniel to have done these crimes

411
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 2: and not left any trace of biological evidence.

412
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 7: Anywhere, I would say very unlikely.

413
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 2: This is so troubling because the idea that Daniel or

414
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 2: anyone could be convicted of eight different crimes with the

415
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 2: absence of any real biological evidence. And it takes you,

416
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 2: coming from Iowa, an outsider, to come in and do

417
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 2: the work that the forensic people should have and could

418
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 2: have very easily done in the first place. The mistakes,

419
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 2: there's so many mistakes that we don't have time to

420
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Speaker 2: cover it on this show. I mean, I have a

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Speaker 2: list of ninety five of them, right, and there's no

422
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 2: way we could talk for hours that we wouldn't cover

423
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: all of the mistakes that were made, both deliberate and

424
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Speaker 2: sloppy mistakes.

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Speaker 1: Right. So, but back to you.

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Speaker 7: When I looked at the news about the case, which

427
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 7: is how I found out about it, it was mentioning

428
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 7: how the prosecutors were so proud to have gotten convictions

429
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 7: on eight women's allegations based on a little bit of DNA.

430
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Speaker 7: The more I looked, I saw there's no evidence of

431
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 7: body fluids. And it turns out the forensic analysts just

432
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 7: looked at the pants with the bright light and magnifying

433
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 7: glass and saw there was no evidence of vaginal fluid

434
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 7: or body fluid, and then went right to testing just

435
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 7: the fly of the pants. She did not do any

436
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 7: control tests on other places on Daniel's uniform pants and belts.

437
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 7: The main problem I think at the Oklahoma City Police

438
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 7: Department is the detectives and then the prosecutors above them.

439
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 7: They just did not understand that DNA can transfer innocently.

440
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 7: So as soon as they found a mixture of DNA

441
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 7: on the fly of Daniel's pants, the police thought that

442
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 7: meant he was guilty of sexual conduct and therefore guilty

443
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 7: of sexual crimes. They wanted to then go out and

444
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 7: find the female who matched the major contributor to that

445
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 7: DNA mixture, assuming she was a victim. So they had

446
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 7: that mindset, that bias that developed into tunnel vision on

447
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 7: Daniel right from the beginning of the investigation, and then

448
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 7: went out and solicited allegations from women whom Daniel had stopped.

449
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 7: And it's no surprise that some of the women did remember, yes,

450
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 7: they were stopped by Daniel, because they had been contacted

451
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 7: because the police knew Daniel stopped them. Daniel's case would

452
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 7: be like someone meeting with you in your office, and

453
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 7: then later they find a woman's DNA on the fly

454
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 7: or pants, and the woman said, yes, I was at

455
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 7: his office. And they conclude that you're guilty just because

456
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 7: you had an interaction with someone.

457
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 2: So if you shook hands this morning with somebody who

458
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 2: you met on the street and then you went into

459
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 2: a friend whatever, and then they went and went to

460
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 2: the bathroom afterwards, a little bit of your DNA, a

461
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 2: touch DNA would be on somewhere on the wherever they

462
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: und after on button, it would be there.

463
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 7: It could very well be there, right because.

464
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: We're always transferring together, always shedding like we always It's

465
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: like we leave it on every day, we leave it

466
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: on the coffee cup, we leave it everywhere we go.

467
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: When you were first taking in for questioning, did you

468
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: request a lawyer.

469
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 9: I didn't request a lawyer at the time. I just

470
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 9: wanted to do a professional I wanted.

471
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 5: To clear my name on you in an any department

472
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 5: in law.

473
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 9: Or your replications before you go off of and you

474
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 9: want to go to a promotion, you want to go

475
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 9: to any special unit. Your replication is what's online and

476
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 9: when people here about you. And so I'm talking clear

477
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 9: my name. I don't know what you got kind of

478
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 9: allegation you as before me, I'm talking clear my name.

479
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 9: I'll try to cooperate and get.

480
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: Out of there, right.

481
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: But we see so many times when we see young

482
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: kids picked up by police for questioning and they don't

483
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 2: even know they're supposed to ask for a lawyer right

484
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: there in high school, or they're from they're from a

485
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: background where they had no knowledge of how these things work.

486
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: You were in law enforcement, right, so it seems to

487
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,239
Speaker 2: me logical that if you were concerned, the first thing

488
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: you would have done. You're a college graduate, your whole family's,

489
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: your whole life has been law enforcement. You've got a

490
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: degree in criminal justice. I mean that's where I go. Well,

491
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: wait a minute, if there was anything on your mind,

492
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: the first thing you would have said is okay, I

493
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: want to lawyer. I'm not stocking you guys now. And

494
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: actually you went in the complete opposite direction from what

495
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 2: I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong. You turned over

496
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 2: your passwords, you turned over the keys to your apartment.

497
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: I mean, can you just elaborate on that? And why

498
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 2: did you do those things?

499
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 5: I basically cooperated as fools anything, As I answered again,

500
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 5: I wanted to be professional. I didn't raiseel I didn't.

501
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 5: They asked. I answered, And that's kind of how in

502
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 5: the sense that you were training academy. You know, you're

503
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,959
Speaker 5: broken down and then you're rated up, and so if

504
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 5: you're asked the question, you're dressed, you're going to reply

505
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 5: anything that they asked. Yeah, go ahead, please please do that.

506
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 5: Go ahead and go with the DNA test, and go

507
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 5: ahead and go to my apartment. Whatever you need to

508
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 5: do to clear my name so I could get back

509
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 5: and continue my job. But I thought I'd really good

510
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 5: at it.

511
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: Please do after this had become this insane media circus

512
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: that reached people all over the world, and now you

513
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: go to trial, and I'm sure it was a crazy

514
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: scene there. Just give us your perspective on how the

515
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: trial went, how your defense team handled it, and what

516
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: your expectations were.

517
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 5: Trial was a long period time and this has happened

518
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 5: during the Thanksgiving break. So the biggest thing I want

519
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 5: to try to address to the audience is how big

520
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 5: of an attack media affects people's perception in their opinions.

521
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 5: So when they use that national media into the aid

522
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 5: of the office, I'm already presumed guilty before I step

523
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 5: in that courtroom. So when Judge Henderson asked the jury members,

524
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 5: are everyone in the court room, brings your right handed

525
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 5: to you have seen this man or ever heard of

526
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 5: the name Daniel. I looked up the whole courtroom raise

527
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 5: your hand. So imagine yourself being there finding for your life,

528
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 5: and the whole court room already knows who you are

529
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 5: based off the opinions of the media. And again media

530
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 5: has such as a fact on the outcome of cases

531
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 5: because all it shows is highlights. They don't show the facts.

532
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 5: They could edit and they could crop whatever they want

533
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 5: to say what they want. And the majorty of the

534
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 5: cases is the wrong narrative. It's false, it's not the

535
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 5: right facts. So with that said, it was a huge

536
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 5: burden overcome. So it's you guilty. Then you got to

537
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 5: prove yourself innocent. And on top of that you have

538
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 5: a whole duram members of that perception in their mind

539
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 5: is already oh, he's already presumed guilty. And then, like

540
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 5: I said, going back to the bank giving break, it's

541
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 5: a long trial. So you have Jess Henderson's quarterners is

542
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 5: don't talk to your sipnificant others when you go back home.

543
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 5: Come on, let's in reality, that's not going to happen.

544
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 5: You know, honey, what did you do today? Well, I

545
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 5: was at the Hole small trial, the biggest thing going

546
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 5: on in Oklahoma. You know, all national news Oklahoma. Of

547
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 5: course you're going to talk about it. And so it

548
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 5: reinforces the people that are not even the court room,

549
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 5: the husband and wife, Oh well, he's guilty. He's guilty

550
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 5: of this. He's just playing it into the jury member's

551
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 5: minds and they're hearing that. So it's reinforcing the presumption

552
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 5: of guilt. So that's something I want to reinforce the

553
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 5: people in the audience to understand, be in my position,

554
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 5: how hard it is to fight for that, you know.

555
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 5: And so we come back from Thanksgiving break and then

556
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 5: only that you have to board my lawyers. You know,

557
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 5: we hire a DNA expert, and yet you know they

558
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 5: didn't finding you on this DNA. We have to wait

559
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 5: till Eric comes along to find that that stuff's not right.

560
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 5: You know, I'll find it for my life. We hired,

561
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 5: we spent hard working money for the DNA expert, and

562
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 5: yet you're gonna say kill me on that. There's a

563
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 5: lot of parts were in the trial. I felt like,

564
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 5: you know, my lawyer could have stepped up and objected

565
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 5: or said something. And there was times where I was mad.

566
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 5: You know, I'm getting I'm getting frusterted. I'm trying to

567
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 5: keep my composure because the jurors members are looking at me,

568
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 5: but you know, I'm getting mad. And I remember one

569
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 5: time I'm just like Scott, what are you injecting? Like

570
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 5: what are you doing? And we kind of got into

571
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 5: Bigger Mintie's like calm down, I'll calm down. Well, it's

572
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 5: hard for me to calm down when you see these

573
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 5: quote unquote victims that go on the stands, we're not

574
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 5: even addressing the questions. In addition to that, you have

575
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 5: leet Detective Davis and Gregory that are coaching them along

576
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 5: head nodding everything they want to say. Okay, yeah, that's

577
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 5: where I continue on and they're looking at Davis and

578
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 5: I'm looking at the jurior members are you serious.

579
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: Or you're not?

580
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 5: Are you not seeing this? And so it was really

581
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 5: frustrating the whole process. Uh, obviously I was in total

582
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 5: sock when the murder came down, and it was just,

583
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 5: you know, something that didn't ever possible would happened.

584
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: My friend Josh Dubin conducted a study with a help

585
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: from a lot of other people that showed that jury

586
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: members have a presumption of guilt that teeters on eighty

587
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: percent just because they see somebody in the defendant's box.

588
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: In your case, it was probably one hundred percent of

589
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: them assumed you must be guilty of something because it

590
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: was impossible to find a jury that hadn't heard about

591
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: the case. You couldn't have found one anywhere in America

592
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: at that point in time, but least of all in Oklahoma.

593
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: So in your case, they you know, and and then

594
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: being the amateur psychologist that I am, you know, when

595
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: the jury is they're sitting there and then they're being

596
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 2: presented with evidence that they're you know, they're they're not

597
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 2: dumb people. So they're sitting there going, well, this doesn't

598
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: make sense and that wasn't true, and this doesn't add up.

599
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: And he's not a black guy, and he's not short,

600
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: and he's not blonde. And but on the other hand,

601
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: I saw this thing on TV and yeah, I mean

602
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: it's it's it's a lot a lot.

603
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 7: I can jump here too, because what's It's really important

604
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 7: is how the DNA evidence contributed heavily to Daniel's conviction,

605
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 7: because the prosecutor actually said in his closing the argument quote,

606
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 7: the most important thing about the teenager whose DNA profile

607
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 7: was found on the fly of Daniels pants is the fact,

608
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 7: said the prosecutor, that DNA from the walls of her

609
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 7: vagina was transferred to vaginal fluids on the outside and

610
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 7: the inside, not of his pockets, not of his cuff,

611
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 7: not where he sits, but at the exact location she

612
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 7: says his penis came in contact. So the prosecutor lied

613
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 7: to the jury telling them there was vaginal fluid that

614
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 7: was there was not. And we know from a juror's

615
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 7: interview after the trial that the jury, at least this

616
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 7: one juror thought there was vaginal fluid because he was

617
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 7: interviewed on Crimewatch Daily and he said, well, I mean,

618
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 7: I'm not a DNA expert. They told us the DNA

619
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 7: was from the vaginal fluid of a seventeen year old.

620
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 7: The DNA people are pretty boring, to be honest with you.

621
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 8: End quote, Well, I mean, I'm not the NA expert.

622
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 8: They told us it was the DNA from the vaginal

623
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 8: fluid from a seventeen year old. The DNA people are

624
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 8: pretty boring, to be honest with you.

625
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 7: So we know at least one der was misled by

626
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 7: the prosecutor to believe there's vaginal fluid, and so of

627
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 7: course they're going to end up convicting, not just for

628
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 7: the teenager's allegations, but the jurors explained afterwards that this

629
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 7: impacted their deliberations for all these allegations.

630
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was during closing arguments. Could you later

631
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: have objected in the closing argument?

632
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: He still can. Yeah, and he should have. But in

633
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: fact it should be a mistrial.

634
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 8: And he did it.

635
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't effect that. Yeah, that's crazy to a

636
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: gross misstatement.

637
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 7: Another problem in the trial is that the forensic analysts

638
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 7: misrepresented the DNA evidence on the fly of Daniel's pants.

639
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 7: There was a mixture of DNA from at least three people.

640
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 7: There were four different stretches of fabrics, two on the

641
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 7: outside and two on the inside of the fly that

642
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 7: were swabbed, and it turns out all of them had

643
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 7: male DNA. And the reason this is signific is the

644
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 7: prosecution ended up arguing that they claimed Daniel's DNA was

645
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 7: not there, and so if he had just innocently transferred

646
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 7: DNA matching the teenager accuser, you would supposedly expect to

647
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 7: find Daniel's DNA there. The forensic analysts ended up telling

648
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 7: the jury there was no male DNA on the inside

649
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 7: of the fly, and the prosecutor again and again would

650
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 7: have her say that there's no DNA, so Daniels DNA

651
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 7: is not there, and then argued to the jury that

652
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 7: this meant it was very unlikely that you could have

653
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 7: DNA transferring innocently, so the jury was misled into believing

654
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 7: there was no male DNA. The forensic analyst also was

655
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 7: wrong when she concluded Daniel's DNA did not contribute. That

656
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 7: was a major error. The DNA evidence did not allow

657
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 7: that conclusion. There's such low level of DNA you can't

658
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 7: tell from whom the DNA came. DNA could be there,

659
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 7: but at low levels, so you don't detect au genetic regions.

660
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 7: So anytime you have DNA misrepresented in a trial, it's

661
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,959
Speaker 7: bad because DNA weighs so heavily in the minds of jurors.

662
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 7: Daniel's attorney never even challenged these claims by the States

663
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 7: forensic analysts that there was no male DNA or that

664
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 7: Daniel's DNA wasn't there.

665
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 1: So this is actually the perfect storm for a wrongful conviction.

666
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: Right. You have the media frenzy reporting inaccuracies left and right,

667
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: making up a narrative that sells advertising time or newspapers.

668
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: You have a jury pool that then is hopelessly tainted.

669
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: You have bumbling and competent and biased investigators throughout this process.

670
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: You have a defense attorney who is I don't want

671
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: to say incompetent, but was not up to the task.

672
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: Because this is as serious as a case could be.

673
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: We're talking about life in prison. I mean, I just

674
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: did the math Daniel's sentence. If he were to serve

675
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: a sentence, he'd be in prison until the year twenty

676
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy seven. Then you have a prosecutor

677
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: who lied, forensic people who lied, or were misstated or inaccurate,

678
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: whatever the word you want to choose. With all of that,

679
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: the outcome was preordained. Did you have any hope that

680
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: you would still be vindicated.

681
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 5: Well, I always believe in the judicial system. That's why

682
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 5: I was the cop, and so you know, I believe

683
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 5: justice will be served. I believe that I'll because honerator.

684
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 5: I remember vividly there was a dream member that she

685
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 5: was a female that I was looking, you know, acknowledge.

686
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 5: Every time they came in the courtroom, I left the courtroom,

687
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 5: she would look at me, she would smile. And when

688
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 5: the verdict was coming in and they walked into the courtroom,

689
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 5: I saw a males, the male cheir members and material

690
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 5: eye and then I saw her crying hysterically, and I'm

691
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 5: this is when I'm really.

692
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 9: Freaking out and I'm shaking under you know what's going on?

693
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 9: And I'm looking over to my lawyers and I'm like, well,

694
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 9: more than what's going on, you know, And she's crying hysterically.

695
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 9: Everyone's crying and remembers that.

696
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 3: You thought it was a guilty villain.

697
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 9: Why you cried, you know? And then when they read

698
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 9: docs and Americans, I'm guilty.

699
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 3: I mean, I was listening a total shock.

700
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 9: I don't even remember what I in or what happened.

701
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 9: I just remember I think I just dropped my head

702
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 9: and you know, like Jod, why you know what was

703
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 9: going on? And it would oh, I know it's not

704
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 9: dropped my head, and uh, something that I believe in

705
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 9: justice would kill me.

706
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 5: Mm hm.

707
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 2: We're here because we want to educate the public as

708
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: to how these things could happen, and how it could

709
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 2: happen to someone you love, and to educate people who

710
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: are going to be serving on juries at some point

711
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: in their life that you know, whoever's listening, it could

712
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: have been you in that jury box, and how would

713
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 2: you have done. And I'm sure people are saying, well,

714
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: I would never have convicted him, but twelve people did.

715
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: And how could they get it so wrong? How could

716
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: they look at things that are so clearly black and

717
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: white and go, yeah, I know it's false, but you know,

718
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: and they had a complicated task. They're looking at things

719
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: that they know are false, right, They're looking at testimony

720
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: that they know is false from a number of different people.

721
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: At the same time, they're being presented with quote unquote

722
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 2: evidence by people who they respect, prosecutors and forensic people,

723
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: and so they're stuck in a conflict. But as citizens

724
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: and as everyone again potential jury remembers, your duty is

725
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: to if there's doubt, to acquit you know, it has

726
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: to be beyond a reasonable doubt. That's something we all

727
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: learn in high school. Right beyond a reasonable doubt. Not

728
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: maybe it could be.

729
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a conflict. I'm not sure, you know.

730
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: And then there's that quote that I can never say

731
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 2: enough times better that one hundred guilty men should go

732
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 2: free than that one is and should suffer. And that's

733
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: sort of been turned on its head. But Daniel, here

734
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 2: you are. You're stuck in a situation that would break

735
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: I think most people.

736
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: How do you do it? Day by day? How? I mean,

737
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: how are you getting along on the inside?

738
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 5: Being a Christian? I think there's a plan for everything.

739
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 5: And I used to hate hearing that as a cliche

740
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 5: and just I was cornering what things happened for a reason,

741
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 5: and I used to hate that. But I think there's

742
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 5: a greater purpose in God, and I think God has

743
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 5: a plan for me, And you know, be down in

744
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 5: my heart, I know I'm on me free. I know

745
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 5: justice will be served as much as I believe in

746
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 5: that system, and now I have a little bit of

747
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 5: hope in there, and I believe it's going to happen.

748
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 5: And with that said, I can be here, if possible,

749
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 5: without any of all my loved ones and supporters. So

750
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 5: everyone that has come along the way. It's a blessing.

751
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 5: It's just the act of God right there and finding

752
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 5: never gave up, never had a thought of giving up.

753
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 5: So I know I'm gonna be free. I'm not gonna

754
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 5: let this, you know, change you who I am in

755
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 5: that day when I'm free, you better bet your blood.

756
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 5: And I'm gonna fight for all the wrongful convicted people

757
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 5: out there. If I have a platform I'm gonna fight from.

758
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 5: I've been on built days at the cop and now

759
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 5: I'm Aconvic and so I'm definitely gonna do my best

760
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 5: to help everyone out there in the world that's in

761
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 5: my position.

762
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's gonna be an honor to work with you.

763
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: So what happens next and how can people help?

764
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 6: I suggest people, if they want to learn more, go

765
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 6: to free Daniel holds Claw dot com. My Facebook Jenny

766
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 6: holds Claw is public, so I post all the facts

767
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 6: and information and give daily updates of what's going.

768
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 4: On with his case.

769
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: Let me just reread that.

770
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: So it's free Daniel Holtz Claw dot com, which is

771
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 2: free Daniel h O l t z c l a

772
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: W dot com, or or go to Jenny Hols Claud

773
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 2: which is j N N Y h o Ltzclaw on Facebook.

774
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 4: Correct.

775
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 6: Another thing I want to point on too is we

776
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 6: have a petition going. We have over thirty five thousand

777
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 6: signatures right now, and you can find that on my

778
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,439
Speaker 6: Facebook or freading holds cloud dot com for the link

779
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 6: to actually sign the petition, and.

780
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: Of course I'll be posting about it as well on

781
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: my Instagram at it's Jason flam Erica. You look like

782
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 2: you've got something to add.

783
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 7: The main point for me was how I feel Daniel's

784
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 7: case is a tragedy because our society's noblest desires to

785
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 7: end racism and sexism and police brutality ended up convicting

786
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 7: it innocent man. So that is a tragedy where a

787
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 7: good thing about our society wanting to care about victims

788
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 7: of sexual assault led people down this path to torture

789
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 7: an innocent man and send into prison.

790
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:51,959
Speaker 2: At this point in the show, this is the point

791
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: that I think, I always say is my favorite part

792
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: of the show, where I get to thank each of

793
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: you again for being here any holes, Claus sister and

794
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: freedom fighter, and Erica Fush biologist and dedicated activists to

795
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: righting these wrongs, and of course you Daniel and I'd

796
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 2: like to uh so again thank you all for being here.

797
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: And then Daniel, I want to turn it over to

798
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: you for this is the part of the show where

799
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: I turned my microphone off and I get to just

800
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: listen and you can just you know, wrap it up

801
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 2: in any way you want and talk about anything you

802
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: want and make sure we didn't miss anything as well.

803
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 2: So thank you, thank you again for sharing and calling

804
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: in from prison, and now turn over to you.

805
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 5: All right, I'll just try to be quick out versus

806
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 5: thank you for having us. I'm my loved ones and

807
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 5: everyone close to come on board and be able to

808
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 5: speak my side instance, I appreciate it. Jason just to add,

809
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 5: you know, a real fast and Jase is so complex

810
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 5: and that I want to really articulate is the media.

811
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 5: And if someone asked me, well, why do you think

812
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 5: you're wroughly convicted Daniel, I'd probably say, to be honest

813
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 5: with you, is just the media. I think the media

814
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 5: plays a huge factor in people's perception. Like I said

815
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 5: earlier in the show, people Watch Today. You know TV

816
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 5: shows where it's Law and Order, n c C and

817
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 5: c I S. You know all those types of shows,

818
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 5: and they believe you know the stuff happens in the

819
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 5: courtor Well, that's TV shows. Those are movies. That's not

820
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 5: the reality of what happens. And atual courtrooms. People believe

821
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 5: that this defendant, the high profile on national television, Oh man,

822
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 5: he must be guilty. Oh and then the defense lawyer,

823
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 5: oh man, he's grow up. Defense lawyer. He's just trying

824
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 5: to get paid. Here's just going to try to get

825
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 5: him off on a technicality. Well that's not the case,

826
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 5: you know, So please just don't believe into the media.

827
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 5: Don't believe in that mass medium and manipulation where they

828
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 5: they're feeding you these one.

829
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,479
Speaker 3: Minute sections where they can edit.

830
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 5: And crop and wherever they want to do, and the

831
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 5: majority of them are just loosen.

832
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 3: The prosecute decided. People believe the prosecutions are the good

833
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 3: guys about all the cases.

834
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 5: It's not that they care about. All they care about

835
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 5: is fectionary.

836
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 3: So I just asked that you guys please look into

837
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: the facts.

838
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 1: Of the cases.

839
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 3: Don't you know the famous quotas don't judge a book

840
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 3: Bud's cover. You know you've seen this mass media, you know,

841
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 3: case going on in your communion scene in the national

842
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 3: news CNN.

843
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 9: You know Box News have sixty seconds remaining.

844
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 3: Big time media outlets just don't jump to the assumption

845
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 3: that this person guilty looking in the facts of the

846
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 3: case and actually, you know, do your homework and that

847
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 3: would definitely does you know, come out with your own

848
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 3: opinion and don't don't believe what the media. I always

849
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 3: try to protrude.

850
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 5: So I know it's about to hang up right now.

851
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 5: But again, thank you everyone and all the.

852
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 9: Loved ones, with all the fighters that came along.

853
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 3: It's a spiracle that where I'm at right now.

854
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 9: It's big to you, guys.

855
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 3: I love you guys.

856
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for being there.

857
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 7: Here we have thirty seconds remaining.

858
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 3: I'm gonna continue to fight. Uh never give up, and

859
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 3: no one will be So thank you everyone out there

860
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 3: and been listening.

861
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 4: I love love you.

862
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: Daniel.

863
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: Hi, Daniel, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

864
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.

865
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and

866
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

867
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: important cause and helping.

868
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: To prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

869
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: org to learn how to donate. And get involved. I'd

870
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

871
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

872
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph.

873
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

874
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

875
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

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Speaker 2: and association with Signal Company Number one