1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:32,156 Speaker 1: Pushing. I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad. I'm Ben Austin. We're two 2 00:00:32,196 --> 00:00:35,956 Speaker 1: best friends, one black, one white. I'm a historian and 3 00:00:36,036 --> 00:00:38,596 Speaker 1: I'm a journalist. And this is some of my best 4 00:00:38,636 --> 00:00:42,276 Speaker 1: friends are Some of my best friends are like, I'm 5 00:00:42,356 --> 00:00:45,436 Speaker 1: not a blank, some of my best friends are blank. 6 00:00:46,196 --> 00:00:49,396 Speaker 1: In this show, we're gonna wrestle with the challenges and 7 00:00:49,556 --> 00:00:53,996 Speaker 1: the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. And 8 00:00:54,076 --> 00:00:57,516 Speaker 1: today we're talking to one of our best friends, Matthew Gatura. 9 00:00:57,836 --> 00:01:00,516 Speaker 1: He has a new memoir, skin Folk. It's about his 10 00:01:00,596 --> 00:01:04,316 Speaker 1: experience growing up in a large family with multi racial 11 00:01:04,436 --> 00:01:08,316 Speaker 1: and adopted siblings in New Jersey during the nineteen seventies. 12 00:01:08,716 --> 00:01:11,556 Speaker 1: But you'll hear all about it in the show. So 13 00:01:11,716 --> 00:01:23,116 Speaker 1: let's get to it, don't all right? Man, this is 14 00:01:23,196 --> 00:01:26,596 Speaker 1: this is a long time coming. I mean, I have 15 00:01:27,116 --> 00:01:30,836 Speaker 1: I have the two white guys in my life that like, 16 00:01:31,316 --> 00:01:35,996 Speaker 1: are unrivaled in personal significance. I mean, it's always all 17 00:01:36,036 --> 00:01:38,956 Speaker 1: about you. It's always all about you. I Mean, everybody 18 00:01:38,996 --> 00:01:41,676 Speaker 1: knows Ben by now, but but nobody knows Matt, and 19 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:44,676 Speaker 1: most especially they don't know Uncle Matt. Because all the 20 00:01:44,716 --> 00:01:47,796 Speaker 1: folks who know about Ben and I vacationing together. They've 21 00:01:47,796 --> 00:01:50,556 Speaker 1: heard the Black Martha's vengeance story for our long time listeners. 22 00:01:50,596 --> 00:01:53,916 Speaker 1: What they don't know is that these guys are like interchangeable, 23 00:01:53,996 --> 00:01:55,876 Speaker 1: Like one week it's been and then the next week 24 00:01:55,916 --> 00:01:58,356 Speaker 1: it's Matt. And my kids are like, hey, hey, Ben, Oh, 25 00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:01,076 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, uncle Matt. I mean, that's just how it is. 26 00:02:01,236 --> 00:02:05,116 Speaker 1: So this is a very special episode of Some of 27 00:02:05,116 --> 00:02:08,596 Speaker 1: My best Friends. Are you do the same thing, Khalil. 28 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:10,716 Speaker 1: I've heard you call me been a number of times. Fine, 29 00:02:10,836 --> 00:02:15,276 Speaker 1: you know so, So Matt, what black friends do you 30 00:02:15,356 --> 00:02:21,396 Speaker 1: mistake for Khalil. I'm just gonna have a sip of 31 00:02:21,436 --> 00:02:25,956 Speaker 1: my sola here and wait, Matt, this has been. I 32 00:02:25,996 --> 00:02:27,916 Speaker 1: agree with Khalil. We've been dying to get you on 33 00:02:27,956 --> 00:02:32,276 Speaker 1: the show. You know, you are one of Khalil's longtime friends, 34 00:02:32,276 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 1: and through Khalil, you've been my longtime friend. You're brilliant. 35 00:02:36,436 --> 00:02:39,196 Speaker 1: You two guys went to graduate school together at Rutgers. 36 00:02:39,796 --> 00:02:43,516 Speaker 1: You had the same advisor, the amazing David Levering Lewis. 37 00:02:44,156 --> 00:02:46,596 Speaker 1: You go into the same field. Like you guys both 38 00:02:46,596 --> 00:02:51,396 Speaker 1: are historians. You both study race and particularly African American 39 00:02:51,476 --> 00:02:55,036 Speaker 1: history and you end up together at Indiana University. You 40 00:02:55,076 --> 00:02:58,356 Speaker 1: both teach there and you've you've been friends since, and 41 00:02:58,436 --> 00:03:00,676 Speaker 1: this is an opportunity for me to ask both of 42 00:03:00,716 --> 00:03:04,396 Speaker 1: you about the experience in grad school, like what were 43 00:03:04,436 --> 00:03:08,196 Speaker 1: your first impressions of one another? Who who was Matt 44 00:03:08,196 --> 00:03:12,436 Speaker 1: and who was Khalil at this moment in time? And actually, Matt, 45 00:03:12,476 --> 00:03:15,036 Speaker 1: since you're our guest, I'm going to ask Khalil to 46 00:03:15,076 --> 00:03:18,876 Speaker 1: go first. Khalil, tell me who was mad at that moment? 47 00:03:18,876 --> 00:03:20,116 Speaker 1: What do you think of him when you met him? 48 00:03:20,156 --> 00:03:22,916 Speaker 1: What do you think of him during grad school? Well, 49 00:03:22,956 --> 00:03:24,916 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I thought he was kind of 50 00:03:24,916 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 1: a know it all. I mean, Matthew Pratt Caturoll was 51 00:03:29,796 --> 00:03:33,876 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five, a first year PhD student, like 52 00:03:33,876 --> 00:03:37,676 Speaker 1: like I was. We met in a seminar with one 53 00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:40,356 Speaker 1: of our faculty members and it was a class on 54 00:03:40,436 --> 00:03:44,436 Speaker 1: African American history. He had already gotten a master's degree. 55 00:03:45,116 --> 00:03:48,756 Speaker 1: I was right out of accounting and didn't know very much. 56 00:03:48,796 --> 00:03:51,356 Speaker 1: And he used a lot of big words. I mean, 57 00:03:51,396 --> 00:03:54,036 Speaker 1: the kind of words that you know, not only had 58 00:03:54,076 --> 00:03:57,596 Speaker 1: I never heard before, but if I'm honest now, I'm like, 59 00:03:57,796 --> 00:03:59,556 Speaker 1: what am I the only idiot in this room to 60 00:03:59,676 --> 00:04:03,796 Speaker 1: doesn't know what he's talking about it, So I thought 61 00:04:03,796 --> 00:04:06,196 Speaker 1: he was kind of a know it all, maybe even 62 00:04:06,236 --> 00:04:09,236 Speaker 1: a little bit arrogant when I first met him. No, 63 00:04:09,556 --> 00:04:12,476 Speaker 1: don't don't hold any punches, Khalil, like you know about 64 00:04:12,516 --> 00:04:17,636 Speaker 1: you and and Matt. So you meet this guy, what 65 00:04:17,756 --> 00:04:19,196 Speaker 1: do you think of him? Who was he at that 66 00:04:19,236 --> 00:04:28,036 Speaker 1: moment in time? He was charming and graceful and extremely opinionated. 67 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:30,316 Speaker 1: And I only got to see the opinions, none of 68 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:34,796 Speaker 1: the charm and the grace we were we were We 69 00:04:34,796 --> 00:04:37,396 Speaker 1: weren't the most problematic people in the room for each other. 70 00:04:37,556 --> 00:04:41,956 Speaker 1: I think there were other far more problematic personalities. Yeah, 71 00:04:41,996 --> 00:04:43,956 Speaker 1: and how does race come to play into this? I mean, 72 00:04:43,996 --> 00:04:47,836 Speaker 1: so Matt's white, Khalil's black. You're studying American history. I 73 00:04:47,876 --> 00:04:52,636 Speaker 1: do remember Khalil getting um, what's the word I would use? Uptight, 74 00:04:52,756 --> 00:04:57,076 Speaker 1: worked up, excited about the use of social construction of race. 75 00:04:57,236 --> 00:04:58,836 Speaker 1: This is a phrase we were using a lot in 76 00:04:58,836 --> 00:05:02,316 Speaker 1: the classroom, And so I think I was inelogently making 77 00:05:02,316 --> 00:05:05,876 Speaker 1: the argument that everyone has a racial experience, and therefore 78 00:05:05,956 --> 00:05:07,956 Speaker 1: the study of race belongs to everyone and we should 79 00:05:07,956 --> 00:05:11,516 Speaker 1: be much more careful about it. But Khalil heard that 80 00:05:11,676 --> 00:05:14,516 Speaker 1: as and I think rightfully so, because again I wasn't 81 00:05:14,596 --> 00:05:18,116 Speaker 1: terribly elegant. Khalil heard that as a refutation of the 82 00:05:18,156 --> 00:05:21,196 Speaker 1: idea of race at all, that race didn't simply didn't matter. Yeah, 83 00:05:21,196 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 1: I had a lot to learn. I mean I was. 84 00:05:22,796 --> 00:05:24,956 Speaker 1: I was sort of a bull in a china shop 85 00:05:24,996 --> 00:05:27,596 Speaker 1: back then in grad school, just trying to make sense 86 00:05:27,636 --> 00:05:31,556 Speaker 1: of all this new information. And I remember at one 87 00:05:31,636 --> 00:05:34,876 Speaker 1: moment talking to another white classmate of ours, a guy 88 00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 1: named John, who's a friend of ours, and John shared 89 00:05:38,356 --> 00:05:40,756 Speaker 1: something and I'm admitting this, I think I've said this 90 00:05:40,796 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 1: to matt at some point over the last twenty seven 91 00:05:43,316 --> 00:05:46,596 Speaker 1: years since I've known you. But John's like, um, you know, 92 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:49,996 Speaker 1: matt has a wife who's a woman of color. And 93 00:05:50,036 --> 00:05:56,196 Speaker 1: I was like, fuck, no shit, because because he was like, 94 00:05:56,676 --> 00:05:58,756 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I won't say he was like 95 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:03,676 Speaker 1: a stereotypical white guy, but in a way Matthew presented 96 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:06,316 Speaker 1: to me at the time, as I've already said, as 97 00:06:06,356 --> 00:06:09,636 Speaker 1: to know it all. And so it was intimidating to 98 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:12,716 Speaker 1: be jousting with this guy who definitely knew more than 99 00:06:12,756 --> 00:06:14,396 Speaker 1: me at that point. I mean, I was shooting from 100 00:06:14,436 --> 00:06:17,836 Speaker 1: the hip based on the most recent weeks readings. But 101 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:20,716 Speaker 1: he'd already had you know, he'd already gotten a master's degree, 102 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:23,716 Speaker 1: and he was a convert to this, like you know, 103 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:26,356 Speaker 1: he was already born again. And I was still like 104 00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:29,316 Speaker 1: stumbling into the church on Sunday morning, trying to figure 105 00:06:29,316 --> 00:06:33,196 Speaker 1: out if I belonged. Listen, Khalil, you and I just 106 00:06:33,236 --> 00:06:36,676 Speaker 1: read Matt's new memoir Skinfolks. That's right. I don't know 107 00:06:36,716 --> 00:06:38,236 Speaker 1: you as well as Khalil, and so all of it 108 00:06:38,276 --> 00:06:40,196 Speaker 1: was new to me. But Khalil has just been calling 109 00:06:40,196 --> 00:06:43,756 Speaker 1: me and he's so excited about about actually getting to 110 00:06:43,756 --> 00:06:46,676 Speaker 1: know you better, even after all these years. Yeah, man, 111 00:06:46,676 --> 00:06:49,916 Speaker 1: it's been it's been twenty seven years. And first of all, 112 00:06:49,956 --> 00:06:51,556 Speaker 1: I feel like you cheated on me a little bit 113 00:06:51,916 --> 00:06:57,116 Speaker 1: because because you've written, You've written this whole book. You know, 114 00:06:57,636 --> 00:07:00,556 Speaker 1: I know so much more about who you are as 115 00:07:00,556 --> 00:07:02,516 Speaker 1: a person, what you've been through, and I feel like 116 00:07:02,516 --> 00:07:04,476 Speaker 1: you were leading a double life. I mean, I've known 117 00:07:04,516 --> 00:07:07,396 Speaker 1: you for twenty seven years, and he could have been 118 00:07:07,396 --> 00:07:09,236 Speaker 1: telling you this stuff all along. Yeah, you know, like, 119 00:07:09,276 --> 00:07:11,916 Speaker 1: what the hell? All right, so we haven't even sort 120 00:07:11,916 --> 00:07:15,716 Speaker 1: of broken down what your background is. Can you tell us. 121 00:07:15,796 --> 00:07:18,316 Speaker 1: What was noteworthy about your parents and the family that 122 00:07:18,356 --> 00:07:22,236 Speaker 1: they created in suburban New Jersey. Sure, thanks, Ben. My 123 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:25,636 Speaker 1: parents were both sort of committed liberals from the late 124 00:07:25,676 --> 00:07:29,756 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties on, and they decided to adopt kids from 125 00:07:29,796 --> 00:07:33,556 Speaker 1: around the world and raise them together with two quote 126 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 1: unquote natural white kids in a large, blended family and 127 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 1: set them behind a white picket fence as a kind 128 00:07:38,956 --> 00:07:42,756 Speaker 1: of reminder to the country of the American promise, or 129 00:07:42,796 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 1: the promise of diversity, or a post Jim Crow world. 130 00:07:46,956 --> 00:07:52,236 Speaker 1: And of course it despite their best of intentions, it 131 00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:55,796 Speaker 1: was an idea almost doomed to failure, and there were 132 00:07:55,836 --> 00:07:59,076 Speaker 1: moments of high high comedy and tragedy along the way, 133 00:07:59,116 --> 00:08:03,076 Speaker 1: and things went sideways, you know, especially in the teenage 134 00:08:03,116 --> 00:08:06,756 Speaker 1: years and beyond. And this was an opportunity for me, 135 00:08:07,516 --> 00:08:09,556 Speaker 1: you know, now, almost at the age of my father 136 00:08:09,556 --> 00:08:11,676 Speaker 1: when he passed away, to sort of reflect back on 137 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 1: what that's meant for me and what it means for 138 00:08:13,876 --> 00:08:16,756 Speaker 1: all of us, you know, Matt, I want to talk 139 00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:19,236 Speaker 1: about this a little bit more in the sense of 140 00:08:19,276 --> 00:08:22,916 Speaker 1: the politics of adoption that you explore in this book, 141 00:08:22,956 --> 00:08:26,756 Speaker 1: because it's it's both familiar to us. Some people think 142 00:08:26,756 --> 00:08:30,956 Speaker 1: about the fascinating choices that Angelina Jolie and Brad pittmay 143 00:08:31,716 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: Some listeners will know about Josephine Baker's adoptive family of 144 00:08:36,516 --> 00:08:39,116 Speaker 1: children from many parts of the world and raise them 145 00:08:39,116 --> 00:08:41,356 Speaker 1: in part in France and a place called a Milan 146 00:08:41,436 --> 00:08:44,476 Speaker 1: that we've been with our own family. But I think 147 00:08:44,636 --> 00:08:47,756 Speaker 1: you capture a moment in time that I didn't really understand, 148 00:08:48,196 --> 00:08:50,836 Speaker 1: a kind of progressive moment in early nineteen seventy on 149 00:08:51,396 --> 00:08:55,196 Speaker 1: concerns about population growth and the sustainability of the earth. 150 00:08:56,316 --> 00:08:59,316 Speaker 1: There's this organization called Welcome House, and your parents in 151 00:08:59,356 --> 00:09:03,676 Speaker 1: some ways become kind of a poster couple for the choices. 152 00:09:03,756 --> 00:09:07,196 Speaker 1: Just talk a little bit more about about Welcome House, 153 00:09:07,236 --> 00:09:11,516 Speaker 1: about this progressive moment, about this idea that we must 154 00:09:12,356 --> 00:09:16,396 Speaker 1: conserve humanity and not just wastefully produce children in a 155 00:09:16,716 --> 00:09:19,956 Speaker 1: world that can't sustain life. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean there's 156 00:09:19,996 --> 00:09:22,756 Speaker 1: a there's a longer history of adoption that you all 157 00:09:22,836 --> 00:09:26,516 Speaker 1: must know where where racial matching took priority and it 158 00:09:26,596 --> 00:09:30,436 Speaker 1: was quite common, you know, before the nineteen sixties for 159 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:35,196 Speaker 1: white children to be placed with white families and and 160 00:09:35,276 --> 00:09:38,756 Speaker 1: to really limit adoption to a kind of national context 161 00:09:39,236 --> 00:09:41,556 Speaker 1: in a way. In the late nineteen sixties, you start 162 00:09:41,596 --> 00:09:43,196 Speaker 1: to see that get broken down, and there are a 163 00:09:43,236 --> 00:09:46,436 Speaker 1: number of progressive organizations, and Welcome House it's one of 164 00:09:46,436 --> 00:09:52,436 Speaker 1: them that try to break the national instinct to match races. 165 00:09:52,516 --> 00:09:55,436 Speaker 1: So Welcome House, funded by or created by Pearl Buck, 166 00:09:55,476 --> 00:09:59,796 Speaker 1: among others, and with a lot of support from both 167 00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 1: the black and white community, becomes the vanguard of this 168 00:10:03,836 --> 00:10:08,796 Speaker 1: new international adoption program that brings together children from around 169 00:10:08,836 --> 00:10:11,476 Speaker 1: the world old than children of different races, largely with 170 00:10:11,556 --> 00:10:15,796 Speaker 1: well meaning white families. The impetus here is to really 171 00:10:15,836 --> 00:10:21,916 Speaker 1: bring kids from disadvantaged or marginalized communities, are broken homes 172 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:25,556 Speaker 1: or war torn countries back to the United States and 173 00:10:25,596 --> 00:10:29,516 Speaker 1: put them in a white headed household. It's not intentionally 174 00:10:29,636 --> 00:10:34,876 Speaker 1: a metaphor for a white headed, diversifying country, but it 175 00:10:35,316 --> 00:10:40,796 Speaker 1: certainly echoes or rhymes with that national interest. And so 176 00:10:40,876 --> 00:10:44,436 Speaker 1: it has all of the hallmarks of the nineteen sixties 177 00:10:44,436 --> 00:10:48,356 Speaker 1: in the sense that it's a radical revision of what 178 00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:52,276 Speaker 1: the country has always done with adoption, and it reflects 179 00:10:52,316 --> 00:10:54,756 Speaker 1: a radical revision of what the nation state is supposed 180 00:10:54,796 --> 00:10:58,796 Speaker 1: to be. But it's also still a white centered model 181 00:10:58,996 --> 00:11:00,996 Speaker 1: of the way in which the family and the nation 182 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:04,516 Speaker 1: should exist. Man. I mean, in listening to you and 183 00:11:04,636 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 1: sort of reading your memoir, I just want to say 184 00:11:06,796 --> 00:11:09,756 Speaker 1: for a moment how great it is. And it's very 185 00:11:09,796 --> 00:11:13,036 Speaker 1: intimate and personal and grapples with race and all its complexities. 186 00:11:13,076 --> 00:11:16,276 Speaker 1: But even what you're describing here, it's a story that 187 00:11:16,396 --> 00:11:20,956 Speaker 1: captures sort of mid century America. It's a story that 188 00:11:21,116 --> 00:11:25,396 Speaker 1: is caught up in Americans entanglement in Korea in Vietnam, 189 00:11:25,476 --> 00:11:29,756 Speaker 1: because two siblings come from Korea, one comes from Vietnam. Um. 190 00:11:30,516 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 1: It is this this sort of ideology and sensibility that 191 00:11:33,836 --> 00:11:37,636 Speaker 1: you're describing. A whole world, a whole history comes out 192 00:11:37,676 --> 00:11:40,716 Speaker 1: in these pages. And Matt, you know, can you can 193 00:11:40,756 --> 00:11:44,236 Speaker 1: you name your siblings and where they're from and name 194 00:11:44,316 --> 00:11:45,556 Speaker 1: them as you name them in the book what you 195 00:11:45,556 --> 00:11:48,596 Speaker 1: feel most comfortable with. Thanks so much. Um. I have 196 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:54,316 Speaker 1: a younger brother, Bug, who comes from Korea, and as 197 00:11:54,356 --> 00:11:57,876 Speaker 1: we know, entirely Korean, although you know, we're also revisiting 198 00:11:57,916 --> 00:12:01,036 Speaker 1: what we know about Korean adoption at this exact moment, 199 00:12:01,076 --> 00:12:04,156 Speaker 1: so you know, we only have the official narrative from 200 00:12:04,156 --> 00:12:06,876 Speaker 1: the from the country of what Bug is or was. 201 00:12:07,636 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 1: I have a younger brother named Mark, who's natural born 202 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:14,236 Speaker 1: white sibling. I have an older brother by forty five 203 00:12:14,356 --> 00:12:18,796 Speaker 1: days named Bear. He's African American in Vietnamese, the son 204 00:12:18,836 --> 00:12:24,316 Speaker 1: of a US soldier in Vietnam. A sister named Anna 205 00:12:24,476 --> 00:12:29,276 Speaker 1: who's mix of white and Korean, and a younger brother 206 00:12:29,356 --> 00:12:34,476 Speaker 1: named Eddie who comes from the South Bronx African American Black. Yeah, 207 00:12:34,636 --> 00:12:36,676 Speaker 1: I want to ask you something else about your folks, 208 00:12:36,916 --> 00:12:40,836 Speaker 1: About your parents, Bob and Cheryl. Your dad's a dreamer, 209 00:12:40,996 --> 00:12:43,876 Speaker 1: your mom's kind of practical. The book feels a lot 210 00:12:43,956 --> 00:12:45,756 Speaker 1: like a love letter to them. I mean, it feels 211 00:12:45,756 --> 00:12:49,676 Speaker 1: like it's it's this portrait of them, and I'm thinking 212 00:12:49,676 --> 00:12:54,236 Speaker 1: about this response to whiteness that they have and this idea. 213 00:12:54,316 --> 00:12:56,796 Speaker 1: You're talking about a literal pick a fence, white pick offense. 214 00:12:56,836 --> 00:12:58,996 Speaker 1: There's a white pick offense around your house in Subourban, 215 00:12:58,996 --> 00:13:01,756 Speaker 1: New Jersey. I'm thinking about my own family, you know, 216 00:13:01,836 --> 00:13:06,756 Speaker 1: white parents, and they settle us in the inner city, 217 00:13:07,236 --> 00:13:08,676 Speaker 1: you know, and sort of in a on the South 218 00:13:08,676 --> 00:13:10,436 Speaker 1: side of Chicago, and you know, there are all sorts 219 00:13:10,436 --> 00:13:13,116 Speaker 1: of reason why that happened. Maybe it's way more Jewish, 220 00:13:13,116 --> 00:13:15,756 Speaker 1: like I'm thinking about, like Jonathan Leatham's books in Brooklyn. 221 00:13:16,996 --> 00:13:19,436 Speaker 1: That's not the choice that your parents make. They're not 222 00:13:19,516 --> 00:13:21,756 Speaker 1: like I'm thinking about race and we're going to raise 223 00:13:21,796 --> 00:13:25,276 Speaker 1: our white children in a diverse neighborhood. They create create 224 00:13:25,316 --> 00:13:29,596 Speaker 1: diversity in an all white space. Can you talk about 225 00:13:29,636 --> 00:13:32,996 Speaker 1: those choices and what they were thinking? They were both 226 00:13:34,196 --> 00:13:37,476 Speaker 1: especially my father was a child of Jersey City and 227 00:13:37,596 --> 00:13:39,396 Speaker 1: had always wanted to live in the country, wanted to 228 00:13:39,396 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 1: live in the sort of green spaces of what was 229 00:13:41,916 --> 00:13:46,076 Speaker 1: then the rural central part of New Jersey, and you 230 00:13:46,236 --> 00:13:49,076 Speaker 1: wanted to join a law firm out there. Met my mom, 231 00:13:49,116 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 1: who was a legal secretary at the time, finishing college, 232 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:56,276 Speaker 1: and they moved even further out into the state, basically 233 00:13:56,276 --> 00:14:00,916 Speaker 1: into the middle of nowhere, partly because you know, they 234 00:14:00,956 --> 00:14:03,316 Speaker 1: wanted this green space, but I think also because they 235 00:14:03,356 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 1: wanted to build a big family, big family in a 236 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:10,556 Speaker 1: place where, as you said, there weren't other big families 237 00:14:10,596 --> 00:14:14,196 Speaker 1: like this, and being in the green spaces of the 238 00:14:14,236 --> 00:14:17,196 Speaker 1: state really gave them a sense that they were they 239 00:14:17,196 --> 00:14:21,316 Speaker 1: were both practicing their commitment to a sustainable, healthy environment 240 00:14:21,716 --> 00:14:26,676 Speaker 1: and practicing a commitment as well to a zero population 241 00:14:26,716 --> 00:14:29,996 Speaker 1: growth initiative that they both cared very deeply about. So 242 00:14:30,036 --> 00:14:35,436 Speaker 1: for them, the racial politics of zero population growth made 243 00:14:35,436 --> 00:14:38,716 Speaker 1: it determined rather that they should bring this big family 244 00:14:39,156 --> 00:14:44,436 Speaker 1: into the part of the state that wasn't paved over, concreteised, 245 00:14:45,276 --> 00:14:46,996 Speaker 1: and that felt, you know, where they could feel the 246 00:14:46,996 --> 00:14:49,196 Speaker 1: wind on their cheeks and smell the flowers and stuff 247 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:53,876 Speaker 1: like that. Are they thinking about changing the racial ideas 248 00:14:53,916 --> 00:14:57,396 Speaker 1: of their white neighbors around them. I think so. You know, certainly, 249 00:14:57,436 --> 00:15:00,716 Speaker 1: my father was there. They're interested in the symbolism of 250 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:05,116 Speaker 1: the family, and it's very quickly, you know, the idea 251 00:15:05,156 --> 00:15:08,756 Speaker 1: of the family expands from let's adopt two to let's 252 00:15:08,796 --> 00:15:12,116 Speaker 1: adopt for over a period of about five or six years, 253 00:15:12,556 --> 00:15:16,916 Speaker 1: very quickly, they get sanctified by neighbors. Your parents are saints, 254 00:15:16,996 --> 00:15:19,836 Speaker 1: your you know, your parents are the heroes of this town. 255 00:15:19,876 --> 00:15:22,476 Speaker 1: And I think there's some there's something to be said 256 00:15:22,516 --> 00:15:25,476 Speaker 1: for the way in which they both took pleasure in 257 00:15:25,596 --> 00:15:31,876 Speaker 1: their neighbors commitment to our symbolism, and the way in 258 00:15:31,876 --> 00:15:34,596 Speaker 1: which they doubled down on it. Matt, we're gonna we 259 00:15:34,676 --> 00:15:37,196 Speaker 1: want to talk more about this memoir and about your upbringing. 260 00:15:37,396 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 1: We're gonna take a short break. We'll be right back. 261 00:15:52,236 --> 00:15:54,996 Speaker 1: We are back on some of my best friends with 262 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 1: Matt Gutura, one of our best friends. That's right, you know. 263 00:16:00,676 --> 00:16:05,836 Speaker 1: I am fascinated by the intentionality with which your parents 264 00:16:06,276 --> 00:16:12,356 Speaker 1: created this family. And I've heard you say often, Um, 265 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:15,916 Speaker 1: you know, we don't get the families that. How do 266 00:16:15,916 --> 00:16:17,476 Speaker 1: you say it, Matt? I'm just gonna let you say it, 267 00:16:17,516 --> 00:16:19,916 Speaker 1: because you've said it to me many times. There are 268 00:16:19,916 --> 00:16:21,916 Speaker 1: many things I say, but I think, no, But it's 269 00:16:21,956 --> 00:16:24,516 Speaker 1: about families you make. Say yeah, that the families you 270 00:16:24,556 --> 00:16:26,476 Speaker 1: make matter as much as the families you get. And 271 00:16:26,676 --> 00:16:29,316 Speaker 1: I you know, or you know, your families aren't born, 272 00:16:29,356 --> 00:16:32,996 Speaker 1: they're made. That's right, That's right. And I've always loved that. 273 00:16:33,116 --> 00:16:36,996 Speaker 1: And there's a passage in the book early on when 274 00:16:37,076 --> 00:16:44,156 Speaker 1: you describe your father taking advantage of the family dinner table. 275 00:16:45,036 --> 00:16:48,396 Speaker 1: Six o'clock sharre Cheryl's bell has already rung in the neighborhood. 276 00:16:48,436 --> 00:16:52,276 Speaker 1: Everyone's gathered, and your father tells this biblical parable of 277 00:16:52,316 --> 00:16:55,796 Speaker 1: Noah that he sees as the kind of origin story 278 00:16:55,836 --> 00:16:58,676 Speaker 1: for the family. Could you could you share that story? Yeah. 279 00:16:58,716 --> 00:17:03,116 Speaker 1: He relates the story of the assemblage and the Ark, 280 00:17:03,756 --> 00:17:07,356 Speaker 1: the decision by Noah to protect the world species by 281 00:17:07,356 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 1: bringing two of every kind on board the arc so 282 00:17:10,996 --> 00:17:14,916 Speaker 1: that they can be released later. And I mentioned it 283 00:17:14,956 --> 00:17:16,956 Speaker 1: in the book not just because my father was in 284 00:17:16,996 --> 00:17:19,196 Speaker 1: the habit of sitting at the head of the table 285 00:17:19,276 --> 00:17:23,156 Speaker 1: and reciting chapter and verse from the Bible, but because 286 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:27,076 Speaker 1: he would often say, sometimes with a wink and a smile, 287 00:17:27,596 --> 00:17:29,436 Speaker 1: that what he'd tried to do is to bring together 288 00:17:29,516 --> 00:17:33,596 Speaker 1: two of every race, Khalil. You'll find this humors that 289 00:17:33,636 --> 00:17:35,716 Speaker 1: he would He would usually say this in the context 290 00:17:35,716 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 1: of a joke made to Sandy, because she was Sandy 291 00:17:40,076 --> 00:17:43,076 Speaker 1: is Matt's wife. Yeah, yes, but I think I'd heard 292 00:17:43,116 --> 00:17:46,636 Speaker 1: that growing up so often, this sense that there was 293 00:17:47,236 --> 00:17:51,756 Speaker 1: a preservationist instinct, right, the arc is a vessel that protects, 294 00:17:52,676 --> 00:17:57,396 Speaker 1: but there was also a kind of commitment to, you know, 295 00:17:57,476 --> 00:18:01,356 Speaker 1: preserving something in the face of apocalypse, and a commitment 296 00:18:01,356 --> 00:18:03,836 Speaker 1: to a sort of religious mission for the family. And 297 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:06,556 Speaker 1: when you present that, Matt, I mean, it's easy to 298 00:18:06,556 --> 00:18:10,636 Speaker 1: think about that also problematically of like collecting people and 299 00:18:10,716 --> 00:18:13,756 Speaker 1: people of different races and so on. How are you 300 00:18:13,796 --> 00:18:16,476 Speaker 1: thinking about presenting that in the memoir, You're like, you're 301 00:18:16,476 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 1: showing your dad in this way. You're also talking about 302 00:18:19,756 --> 00:18:22,156 Speaker 1: it that it's this bigger sort of mission that he has, 303 00:18:22,236 --> 00:18:25,436 Speaker 1: which is about population. You know, I think it's I 304 00:18:25,476 --> 00:18:28,316 Speaker 1: think people are complicated, and I think it's entirely possible 305 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:32,956 Speaker 1: for someone to be well intentioned to do things out 306 00:18:32,996 --> 00:18:38,996 Speaker 1: of care and love and feeling and several in several instances, 307 00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:41,916 Speaker 1: the adoptions happen in moments of great national and even 308 00:18:41,996 --> 00:18:46,316 Speaker 1: international urgency where where they hear something over a telephone 309 00:18:46,396 --> 00:18:48,556 Speaker 1: or see something on screen and they feel they just 310 00:18:48,636 --> 00:18:51,476 Speaker 1: have to act. It's possible to do all of that 311 00:18:51,516 --> 00:18:54,396 Speaker 1: and be all of that and also be you know, 312 00:18:54,436 --> 00:18:59,636 Speaker 1: a political instrumentalist, to be tactical, and to think, to 313 00:18:59,716 --> 00:19:02,716 Speaker 1: have moments of reflection where you think about the strategic 314 00:19:02,756 --> 00:19:07,196 Speaker 1: and symbolic importance of the family you've you've created. And 315 00:19:07,236 --> 00:19:10,516 Speaker 1: just for the record, I mean you passed over a 316 00:19:10,556 --> 00:19:14,196 Speaker 1: really significant moment. I mean, at least two of your 317 00:19:14,196 --> 00:19:19,556 Speaker 1: siblings arrive under extreme darress, literally airlifted out of Saigon 318 00:19:19,796 --> 00:19:23,196 Speaker 1: in the final hours of the Vietnam War, and another 319 00:19:23,676 --> 00:19:26,396 Speaker 1: comes as a refugee, and you know, your parents get 320 00:19:26,396 --> 00:19:28,836 Speaker 1: a call and say, is it possible that you can 321 00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:32,436 Speaker 1: make room for another than they expected? Not they wanted 322 00:19:32,436 --> 00:19:34,516 Speaker 1: a baby, but this is a teenager. They get Is 323 00:19:34,516 --> 00:19:37,556 Speaker 1: that correct? Yeah, that's right. I mean, in that particular case, 324 00:19:37,596 --> 00:19:41,676 Speaker 1: they were they were filming an advertisement for Welcome House 325 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:46,396 Speaker 1: in city of Philadelphia, and we're having trouble presenting a 326 00:19:46,476 --> 00:19:50,036 Speaker 1: kind of real emotional response on camera. They weren't actors, 327 00:19:50,156 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: and they needed they needed to be prompted to feel 328 00:19:52,676 --> 00:19:56,716 Speaker 1: things on screen. And so the the officer presented them 329 00:19:56,716 --> 00:19:59,396 Speaker 1: with a real world case, pulled a dossier out of 330 00:19:59,396 --> 00:20:02,196 Speaker 1: the drawer and said, here's the story of this young, 331 00:20:02,756 --> 00:20:06,836 Speaker 1: you know, preteen girl, and would you know she's she said, 332 00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:09,236 Speaker 1: a moment where she's either adopted or she stays or 333 00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:12,436 Speaker 1: she is forever, and you know, would you would you 334 00:20:12,476 --> 00:20:16,836 Speaker 1: be interested? And they playing the part said yes, absolutely. 335 00:20:16,876 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 1: But then also in their minds, we're thinking, well why not, 336 00:20:20,516 --> 00:20:24,756 Speaker 1: Like what, why wouldn't we adopt another child, especially one 337 00:20:24,756 --> 00:20:28,156 Speaker 1: whom you know has been endorsed by Welcome House and 338 00:20:29,196 --> 00:20:33,396 Speaker 1: by an invitiate group. They were really quite taken with 339 00:20:33,436 --> 00:20:36,836 Speaker 1: the story and and acted as a consequence. So so 340 00:20:37,116 --> 00:20:39,516 Speaker 1: we want to know did this all work out? I mean, 341 00:20:39,716 --> 00:20:45,076 Speaker 1: there was so much intentionality for your parents, m and 342 00:20:46,196 --> 00:20:51,276 Speaker 1: what happened. It's a complicated answer. It's a very complicated answer. 343 00:20:51,316 --> 00:20:55,956 Speaker 1: But you know, the best way to start is to 344 00:20:55,996 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 1: begin with I think what matters most, which is that 345 00:20:59,116 --> 00:21:02,476 Speaker 1: I have five siblings I love, and I can't imagine 346 00:21:02,556 --> 00:21:05,396 Speaker 1: my life without them, and I don't think they can 347 00:21:05,436 --> 00:21:07,756 Speaker 1: imagine there's without me, or if they if they do 348 00:21:07,796 --> 00:21:10,476 Speaker 1: imagine there's without me, they they don't tell me about it. 349 00:21:11,276 --> 00:21:16,036 Speaker 1: And I think that's being a good sibling too, right, right, 350 00:21:16,996 --> 00:21:21,236 Speaker 1: And so you know, whatever whatever happened, and however challenging 351 00:21:21,236 --> 00:21:24,556 Speaker 1: it's sometimes been, I think it matters that those bonds 352 00:21:24,556 --> 00:21:27,356 Speaker 1: of affection are enduring, and that we feel very keenly 353 00:21:27,396 --> 00:21:30,396 Speaker 1: that we are each other's siblings, and that there is 354 00:21:30,436 --> 00:21:33,116 Speaker 1: such a thing as a wee that our family exists 355 00:21:33,116 --> 00:21:35,036 Speaker 1: as an idea in the world because of our parents 356 00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:39,076 Speaker 1: imagination and courage. That's not to say, as you guys 357 00:21:39,156 --> 00:21:41,476 Speaker 1: are both well aware because you've read the book, that 358 00:21:41,556 --> 00:21:46,116 Speaker 1: things don't go sideways more than once, and that it 359 00:21:46,276 --> 00:21:51,156 Speaker 1: isn't a very difficult story. You know. It concludes with 360 00:21:51,236 --> 00:21:55,356 Speaker 1: one one of my brothers in jail, he's presently incarcerated 361 00:21:55,836 --> 00:22:00,436 Speaker 1: in during North Carolina, And it concludes with, you know, 362 00:22:00,476 --> 00:22:05,436 Speaker 1: my own sense that there are moments where I'm I'm 363 00:22:05,636 --> 00:22:11,556 Speaker 1: pointedly or politically estranged from my siblings precisely because of 364 00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:14,676 Speaker 1: the bounds of race, that as we leave the house 365 00:22:15,196 --> 00:22:17,676 Speaker 1: and as race comes to matter more in our lives, 366 00:22:18,556 --> 00:22:20,876 Speaker 1: it also comes to shape when and where we can 367 00:22:20,996 --> 00:22:23,596 Speaker 1: enter each other's lives and what kinds of relationships we 368 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:28,196 Speaker 1: can have. It also concludes with you my near twin 369 00:22:28,396 --> 00:22:32,316 Speaker 1: brother Bear and his assault at the hands of a 370 00:22:32,396 --> 00:22:36,036 Speaker 1: group of white supremacists in North Carolina, and his close 371 00:22:36,036 --> 00:22:39,716 Speaker 1: brush with death and his attempt to save our youngest 372 00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:44,276 Speaker 1: brother from his own bad choices. Yeah, just even to 373 00:22:44,316 --> 00:22:46,476 Speaker 1: remind everyone who's here in this, like when you say 374 00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:49,396 Speaker 1: you're near twin brother Bear, Bear, who presents as black, 375 00:22:49,436 --> 00:22:52,996 Speaker 1: and he's black and Vietnamese, but in America he presents 376 00:22:53,036 --> 00:22:58,036 Speaker 1: as black, and so he's attacked precisely because he is black. Yeah. 377 00:22:58,076 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 1: He's forty five days older than me, And when we 378 00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:04,076 Speaker 1: were younger, we were roughly the same size and shape 379 00:23:04,076 --> 00:23:08,156 Speaker 1: and wore the same clothes, often in different colors. We 380 00:23:08,236 --> 00:23:11,316 Speaker 1: got matched Christmas presence for years. I like to say 381 00:23:11,356 --> 00:23:15,436 Speaker 1: that that Bear was the more talented, more charming, more athletic, 382 00:23:15,476 --> 00:23:18,836 Speaker 1: and more intelligent of us, and certainly are our grades 383 00:23:18,836 --> 00:23:23,876 Speaker 1: and personal histories reflect that. So. Um. But but you know, 384 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:27,036 Speaker 1: we uh, we have as we have been apart over 385 00:23:27,076 --> 00:23:29,956 Speaker 1: the last couple of decades. Bear's life, you know, living 386 00:23:29,956 --> 00:23:33,316 Speaker 1: in the South is very different than mine. And uh. 387 00:23:33,436 --> 00:23:35,556 Speaker 1: And it was in the midst of writing the book 388 00:23:35,596 --> 00:23:39,476 Speaker 1: that and after our family reunion that Bear was assaulted 389 00:23:39,516 --> 00:23:43,556 Speaker 1: while driving to work in the morning. They followed him 390 00:23:43,596 --> 00:23:46,476 Speaker 1: into the parking lot of his job and tried to 391 00:23:46,556 --> 00:23:49,716 Speaker 1: beat him to death with a baseball bat. Damn, Matt, 392 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:52,596 Speaker 1: I mean that that is so fucked up, even in 393 00:23:52,636 --> 00:23:54,876 Speaker 1: the way in the book you describe Bear trying to 394 00:23:54,916 --> 00:24:00,396 Speaker 1: downplay it to you guys, it's just so it's so devastating. Yeah, yeah, 395 00:24:00,436 --> 00:24:04,676 Speaker 1: I actually remember you telling me that, Matt. Um. I 396 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:09,556 Speaker 1: want to to talk just one moment further about the 397 00:24:09,716 --> 00:24:13,036 Speaker 1: idea of your family as a symbol of what's possible 398 00:24:13,076 --> 00:24:14,876 Speaker 1: in the future of a country coming out of the 399 00:24:14,876 --> 00:24:16,916 Speaker 1: Civil Rights era. I mean, this is a family that's 400 00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:19,476 Speaker 1: being as symboled a word you use a lot in 401 00:24:19,516 --> 00:24:22,516 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. In the nineteen eighties, a time when 402 00:24:22,596 --> 00:24:25,636 Speaker 1: there's a Cold War, the Reagan era is pushing back 403 00:24:25,676 --> 00:24:29,556 Speaker 1: against the gains of the Civil rights movement and this 404 00:24:29,596 --> 00:24:36,156 Speaker 1: idea of color blindness and proximity and integration. We are children, 405 00:24:36,196 --> 00:24:38,596 Speaker 1: all three of us, of the MTV generation, where the 406 00:24:38,676 --> 00:24:42,836 Speaker 1: idea that simply sharing social and cultural space together would 407 00:24:42,836 --> 00:24:45,796 Speaker 1: solve the world's problems, and that there wouldn't be such 408 00:24:45,836 --> 00:24:49,636 Speaker 1: a thing as structural racism any longer. And as your 409 00:24:49,676 --> 00:24:54,756 Speaker 1: book and story unfolds, you gradually tell the reader that 410 00:24:55,876 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 1: your parents idealism was not enough, that you couldn't defeat 411 00:25:00,876 --> 00:25:06,076 Speaker 1: structural racism, as you say, with good intentions and heartfelt correspondence. 412 00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 1: And I think that's a really powerful message for someone 413 00:25:12,636 --> 00:25:15,876 Speaker 1: who both lived this experience but also who has dedicated 414 00:25:15,916 --> 00:25:18,756 Speaker 1: their career to writing about it. Did Did I get 415 00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:21,796 Speaker 1: that right? I mean you you basically say that that 416 00:25:21,956 --> 00:25:24,596 Speaker 1: all of these good intentions, even even and embodied in 417 00:25:24,876 --> 00:25:29,036 Speaker 1: the closest of relationships that I have experienced, can't solve 418 00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:33,476 Speaker 1: for this big issue. Yeah, I think you know. It's 419 00:25:33,556 --> 00:25:37,756 Speaker 1: one thing to say that you you've created a family 420 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:39,636 Speaker 1: and that they love each other and they're committed to 421 00:25:39,676 --> 00:25:42,196 Speaker 1: each other. But it's another thing to say that you've 422 00:25:42,196 --> 00:25:44,836 Speaker 1: created a family as a symbol and it's meant to 423 00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:47,316 Speaker 1: win the war of hearts and minds. And I don't 424 00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:49,956 Speaker 1: I don't know that our family was able to do that, 425 00:25:50,356 --> 00:25:52,836 Speaker 1: and to a certain extent, it wasn't able to hold 426 00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:57,196 Speaker 1: up under the real extraordinary burdens of that moment, you know, 427 00:25:57,196 --> 00:25:59,356 Speaker 1: as you as you all have described on your show 428 00:25:59,396 --> 00:26:03,636 Speaker 1: and elsewhere, that decade, the nineteen eighties into the nineteen 429 00:26:03,676 --> 00:26:07,516 Speaker 1: nineties was a critically dystopian one in terms of race relations. 430 00:26:08,076 --> 00:26:10,916 Speaker 1: Not that there have been very many utopic ones, but 431 00:26:10,996 --> 00:26:13,996 Speaker 1: the the eighties in particular, or a moment where everything 432 00:26:14,036 --> 00:26:19,756 Speaker 1: goes sideways, and in this particular family, in our lives together, 433 00:26:20,836 --> 00:26:23,236 Speaker 1: you know, it came to be that that white pick 434 00:26:23,276 --> 00:26:26,796 Speaker 1: and fence wasn't enough, and stuff starts to seep in, 435 00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:29,676 Speaker 1: and and we also go out into the world and 436 00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:34,196 Speaker 1: start to have our own very individuated experiences with race. 437 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:37,796 Speaker 1: You know, I as as you know Khalil, I basically 438 00:26:37,916 --> 00:26:42,756 Speaker 1: wandered around New Jersey like a like a drunk rascal, 439 00:26:43,076 --> 00:26:46,556 Speaker 1: begging to be arrested and couldn't do it. Right. We 440 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:49,196 Speaker 1: had a beer can as a hood ornament, right, Yeah, 441 00:26:49,276 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 1: that's right. I tried. I tried so daring the New 442 00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:55,636 Speaker 1: Jersey State State Police to uh to make something of it, 443 00:26:55,716 --> 00:27:00,596 Speaker 1: and they wouldn't. They wouldn't. But but you know, for 444 00:27:00,596 --> 00:27:03,276 Speaker 1: for Bear and for Eddie in particular, I think every 445 00:27:03,316 --> 00:27:07,756 Speaker 1: every misstep, every every moment at which they might have 446 00:27:08,476 --> 00:27:10,556 Speaker 1: been seen by the police, was a moment at which 447 00:27:10,556 --> 00:27:14,196 Speaker 1: they were in fact seen by the police and by 448 00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:17,876 Speaker 1: many others, many other elements of the state. Yeah, Matt 449 00:27:18,276 --> 00:27:19,836 Speaker 1: and Khalil, we're going to take a break and we're 450 00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:23,236 Speaker 1: gonna come back and talk more about your whiteness. Matt awesome. 451 00:27:36,556 --> 00:27:41,836 Speaker 1: All right, back with Matt Guturall. He's got this new memoir, 452 00:27:42,076 --> 00:27:46,036 Speaker 1: skin Folk Man. I want to talk more about you 453 00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:48,876 Speaker 1: in your memoir and how you wrote yourself into it. 454 00:27:49,436 --> 00:27:53,076 Speaker 1: You're so smart about these issues. You're so careful in 455 00:27:53,196 --> 00:27:58,156 Speaker 1: thinking about even how you can't speak for somebody else, 456 00:27:58,196 --> 00:28:00,596 Speaker 1: how you can't speak for your siblings. So much of 457 00:28:00,636 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 1: the book then becomes about your sense of how you're 458 00:28:03,996 --> 00:28:07,636 Speaker 1: experiencing this because you've put these natural limitations on not 459 00:28:07,756 --> 00:28:11,556 Speaker 1: talking into somebody else's perspective. And you do this really 460 00:28:11,636 --> 00:28:13,916 Speaker 1: artfully in many ways in the book, where you bring 461 00:28:13,956 --> 00:28:17,236 Speaker 1: in lots of artifacts, photographs and other things. Sometimes you 462 00:28:17,276 --> 00:28:20,036 Speaker 1: write in second person. You want the reader to imagine 463 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:23,156 Speaker 1: being in that space. But but you don't imagine yourself 464 00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:26,396 Speaker 1: into Bug and Eddie space. You do some interviews with Bear, 465 00:28:26,556 --> 00:28:29,716 Speaker 1: your other brother with Anna two at times, and his 466 00:28:29,836 --> 00:28:32,236 Speaker 1: mom and Mark and Mark and your mom and your 467 00:28:32,236 --> 00:28:35,716 Speaker 1: father has passed away. So much of the book, or 468 00:28:35,716 --> 00:28:38,076 Speaker 1: a lot of the book, is also you wrestling with 469 00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:40,836 Speaker 1: what it means to be a white guy, to be white, 470 00:28:41,636 --> 00:28:44,476 Speaker 1: even amid this family, and maybe especially amid this family. 471 00:28:44,916 --> 00:28:48,036 Speaker 1: And you write about the ways that you're implicated in 472 00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:52,116 Speaker 1: Americans racism, and I would say in especially anti blackness. 473 00:28:52,556 --> 00:28:53,996 Speaker 1: And there's a story that I'd like you to tell 474 00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:57,516 Speaker 1: if you can, from the book. You get in a 475 00:28:57,556 --> 00:28:59,836 Speaker 1: fight in high school and then Bear sticks up for 476 00:28:59,876 --> 00:29:03,036 Speaker 1: you and sort of it brings a lot of racial 477 00:29:03,036 --> 00:29:07,836 Speaker 1: issues to the surface. Can you tell that story? Yeah? 478 00:29:07,876 --> 00:29:10,276 Speaker 1: I mean, I think one of the one of the 479 00:29:10,356 --> 00:29:15,236 Speaker 1: challenges for me growing up was that I had two 480 00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:18,596 Speaker 1: black brothers, and one of them was a kind of ideal. 481 00:29:18,836 --> 00:29:22,996 Speaker 1: He was an all state linebacker, straight as student, you know, 482 00:29:23,276 --> 00:29:27,356 Speaker 1: very charming and garrulous person. Is Bear. That's Bear. And 483 00:29:27,356 --> 00:29:33,156 Speaker 1: then Eddie, my younger sibling, was was more more challenging 484 00:29:33,436 --> 00:29:37,116 Speaker 1: in some ways. So my physically smaller physically smaller and 485 00:29:37,156 --> 00:29:39,316 Speaker 1: also got in trouble a little bit more and had 486 00:29:39,356 --> 00:29:42,996 Speaker 1: a more difficult upbringing as difficult as Bears was being 487 00:29:43,076 --> 00:29:46,516 Speaker 1: from from Saigon at that moment, I think Eddie's background 488 00:29:46,596 --> 00:29:50,556 Speaker 1: was even more difficult and different, very different and powerfully 489 00:29:50,596 --> 00:29:53,356 Speaker 1: different ways. And also somehow they're wired differently. You write 490 00:29:53,356 --> 00:29:55,636 Speaker 1: about Bear showing up at the house and just like 491 00:29:55,956 --> 00:29:57,996 Speaker 1: I'm here, guys, and running around the house and being 492 00:29:58,076 --> 00:30:02,836 Speaker 1: joyous like like here. There's just something about his affect 493 00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:06,316 Speaker 1: right like his DNA. So so Bear had earlier in 494 00:30:06,396 --> 00:30:08,796 Speaker 1: my life, as Bear was a kind of role model, 495 00:30:08,836 --> 00:30:10,396 Speaker 1: he had failed to stick up for me on the 496 00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:14,236 Speaker 1: bus because he had he commanded the respect of older siblings. 497 00:30:14,236 --> 00:30:15,796 Speaker 1: And on the way home from the bus a few 498 00:30:15,876 --> 00:30:18,996 Speaker 1: years prior to this story, I got I was getting 499 00:30:19,076 --> 00:30:22,316 Speaker 1: roughed up in the back and older boys were doing 500 00:30:22,356 --> 00:30:24,596 Speaker 1: what older boys do, and they took my shoes and 501 00:30:24,596 --> 00:30:26,956 Speaker 1: threw them out of the window, but they made sure 502 00:30:26,956 --> 00:30:30,676 Speaker 1: to check to see that Bear didn't mind first, and 503 00:30:30,756 --> 00:30:32,716 Speaker 1: he didn't say a word. He was in his own head, 504 00:30:32,756 --> 00:30:35,876 Speaker 1: doing his own thing. And when we got off the bus, 505 00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:37,956 Speaker 1: I chewed him out because he had totally left me 506 00:30:38,076 --> 00:30:41,236 Speaker 1: to dry it hadn't stuck up for me. So a 507 00:30:41,276 --> 00:30:43,956 Speaker 1: few years a few years later, I'm older now, and 508 00:30:43,996 --> 00:30:47,876 Speaker 1: I'm a teenager, and I've made some terrible decisions about friends. 509 00:30:48,116 --> 00:30:50,396 Speaker 1: And we're sitting in the backyard of my parents' house. 510 00:30:50,436 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 1: My parents are away somewhere. My mom, by the way, 511 00:30:53,596 --> 00:30:56,316 Speaker 1: reading this passage, was wondering where we were and couldn't 512 00:30:56,356 --> 00:31:00,516 Speaker 1: believe that we had a party. That's fine, that's what 513 00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:02,636 Speaker 1: she read. Yeah, that's how she read the whole day. 514 00:31:02,676 --> 00:31:05,756 Speaker 1: So we're sitting on the back porch and it comes 515 00:31:05,796 --> 00:31:10,236 Speaker 1: to Bear's attention that the weekend prior this, uh, this 516 00:31:10,436 --> 00:31:15,156 Speaker 1: very large Italian American kid from Big Joey Big Joey, 517 00:31:15,316 --> 00:31:19,276 Speaker 1: had punched me upside the head among other friends. Big 518 00:31:19,356 --> 00:31:22,276 Speaker 1: Joey was from Scotch Plains. He was like a world 519 00:31:22,316 --> 00:31:25,836 Speaker 1: class wrestler, fighter, scrappy kid, and he was being used 520 00:31:25,876 --> 00:31:28,796 Speaker 1: as a doorkeeper at a party and wouldn't let me in. 521 00:31:29,396 --> 00:31:32,756 Speaker 1: Me and my friend's end. And so Bear, after hearing 522 00:31:32,836 --> 00:31:34,956 Speaker 1: this story from us that Big Joey had punched me 523 00:31:34,996 --> 00:31:40,356 Speaker 1: in the head, grabs a kind of mouth breathing dude 524 00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:43,116 Speaker 1: from down the street and they get in Bear's classic 525 00:31:43,196 --> 00:31:47,116 Speaker 1: two forty z Primer Greg remember that car and race 526 00:31:47,236 --> 00:31:49,796 Speaker 1: down the driveway to go find Big Joey and kick 527 00:31:49,836 --> 00:31:52,756 Speaker 1: his ass. And in that moment, I, of course, I'm 528 00:31:52,756 --> 00:31:55,796 Speaker 1: super proud because Bear has failed to stand up for 529 00:31:55,876 --> 00:31:59,316 Speaker 1: me the past, and here, here I am thinking, and 530 00:31:59,396 --> 00:32:00,996 Speaker 1: now he's going to do it. He's going to go 531 00:32:01,076 --> 00:32:03,076 Speaker 1: stand up for me. And it's at that moment that 532 00:32:03,156 --> 00:32:06,956 Speaker 1: my my friends decide to call Bear the N word. 533 00:32:06,996 --> 00:32:08,836 Speaker 1: They're like that he's going to go get him. You know, 534 00:32:08,836 --> 00:32:12,836 Speaker 1: we set that N word loose and um and it 535 00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:16,836 Speaker 1: was just such a and that hadn't happened before with them. 536 00:32:16,836 --> 00:32:19,396 Speaker 1: It wasn't a comment they'd made about Bear. It wasn't 537 00:32:19,596 --> 00:32:22,916 Speaker 1: it wasn't something that had It was probably a very 538 00:32:22,916 --> 00:32:26,236 Speaker 1: predictable moment, but it wasn't one that I myself had predicted. 539 00:32:26,396 --> 00:32:30,356 Speaker 1: And it just floored me that I had a that 540 00:32:30,396 --> 00:32:33,076 Speaker 1: I had chosen such a terrible set of friends, but 541 00:32:33,276 --> 00:32:36,596 Speaker 1: b that we had just unleashed Bear in his two 542 00:32:36,596 --> 00:32:40,156 Speaker 1: forty Z to go find Big Joey and Scotch Planes 543 00:32:40,196 --> 00:32:43,556 Speaker 1: and kick his ass and and the Wii and the 544 00:32:43,596 --> 00:32:45,996 Speaker 1: Wii we just set him loose, meaning like you're you're 545 00:32:45,996 --> 00:32:49,036 Speaker 1: on the side of those guys. Yeah, no, I I am. 546 00:32:49,076 --> 00:32:53,116 Speaker 1: I am a white guy sitting there. Um. And the 547 00:32:53,436 --> 00:32:55,556 Speaker 1: and the way in which the three of us were 548 00:32:55,636 --> 00:33:00,436 Speaker 1: suddenly estranged from Bear. Um, you know, that's a That's 549 00:33:00,476 --> 00:33:03,276 Speaker 1: another one of those very powerful moments where I felt 550 00:33:03,316 --> 00:33:07,196 Speaker 1: like Bear was family. But but there was a line 551 00:33:07,436 --> 00:33:10,676 Speaker 1: that that weird Chris cross of skin and kin that 552 00:33:10,796 --> 00:33:13,276 Speaker 1: I haven't been able to figure out for much of 553 00:33:13,316 --> 00:33:16,796 Speaker 1: my life. Fortunately, you know, as you guys know, Bear 554 00:33:18,876 --> 00:33:21,276 Speaker 1: was just enjoying a country ride and really didn't have 555 00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:25,836 Speaker 1: any intentions of going to Scotch Plains and taking Bear 556 00:33:26,756 --> 00:33:33,636 Speaker 1: is a really smart dude there too, smart smart. It's 557 00:33:33,676 --> 00:33:37,596 Speaker 1: like going to Kunarsi right to look for subcat who 558 00:33:38,316 --> 00:33:41,156 Speaker 1: who has threatened your younger brother? You don't do that 559 00:33:41,196 --> 00:33:44,196 Speaker 1: as a black guy going to an Italian neighborhood in 560 00:33:44,236 --> 00:33:48,396 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Yeah, no, he was, He had other 561 00:33:48,436 --> 00:33:49,876 Speaker 1: things in mind. I think he just wanted to go 562 00:33:49,916 --> 00:33:53,116 Speaker 1: for a ride. So, Matt, I'm thinking about moments in 563 00:33:53,196 --> 00:33:56,636 Speaker 1: my life too. I have obviously don't have this with 564 00:33:56,676 --> 00:33:58,996 Speaker 1: like a brother, and Khalil and I never experiences together 565 00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:02,036 Speaker 1: where somebody like you know other you know in that way. 566 00:34:02,116 --> 00:34:04,956 Speaker 1: Although not to interrupt, you. You did get you did 567 00:34:04,956 --> 00:34:08,556 Speaker 1: get robbed once with some other friends. And when they 568 00:34:08,636 --> 00:34:10,596 Speaker 1: took your old chain and punched you in the face 569 00:34:10,636 --> 00:34:13,676 Speaker 1: and gave you a double black eye. I came over 570 00:34:14,076 --> 00:34:16,716 Speaker 1: like the next afternoon. He opened the door, and you 571 00:34:16,796 --> 00:34:19,356 Speaker 1: looked at me like I had done something wrong because 572 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:22,236 Speaker 1: I wasn't with you. That was that was just my 573 00:34:22,276 --> 00:34:25,476 Speaker 1: standing as kicked face. I wasn't looking at you that way. Yeah. 574 00:34:26,556 --> 00:34:29,516 Speaker 1: Out all all my friends stood and watch. They were like, 575 00:34:29,676 --> 00:34:35,076 Speaker 1: damn got beat up? Is not me? Yeah, but Matt, 576 00:34:35,236 --> 00:34:37,196 Speaker 1: I was thinking, like, so you haven't experienced too of 577 00:34:37,276 --> 00:34:38,836 Speaker 1: going to college. When I went to college. You know, 578 00:34:38,876 --> 00:34:41,596 Speaker 1: I grew up in a mostly black neighborhood in Chicago. 579 00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:44,356 Speaker 1: I go to college it's predominantly white. I got some 580 00:34:44,436 --> 00:34:46,636 Speaker 1: friends on the basketball team who are white guys. You know, 581 00:34:46,756 --> 00:34:49,236 Speaker 1: I befriend them because I'm so great at basketball. They 582 00:34:49,276 --> 00:34:52,396 Speaker 1: want to be my buddy. Um. They all pledge a fraternity, 583 00:34:52,396 --> 00:34:54,316 Speaker 1: a white fraternity, and they're like, why don't you come? 584 00:34:54,316 --> 00:34:56,716 Speaker 1: It's free beer, you could hang out. I'm like, man, 585 00:34:56,916 --> 00:34:59,756 Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm eighteen or whatever, nineteen. I'm like, great, 586 00:34:59,916 --> 00:35:02,396 Speaker 1: this sounds amazing. It is free beer. I'm hanging out. 587 00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:04,796 Speaker 1: You know, it's great. I go back a second time 588 00:35:05,196 --> 00:35:08,516 Speaker 1: and I hear guys in the basement just like playing 589 00:35:08,516 --> 00:35:11,556 Speaker 1: a game. They're like running around and shouting the N word. 590 00:35:11,556 --> 00:35:13,196 Speaker 1: It's like part of a game they're playing. And like, 591 00:35:13,636 --> 00:35:16,956 Speaker 1: from my own white experience, I had never nothing like 592 00:35:16,996 --> 00:35:20,076 Speaker 1: that had ever come across my experience before. And I 593 00:35:20,156 --> 00:35:23,476 Speaker 1: decided that moment, I'm like, well, I will never come 594 00:35:23,516 --> 00:35:26,476 Speaker 1: back to a fraternity again in the history of my 595 00:35:26,836 --> 00:35:29,436 Speaker 1: college experience. And I never did. That was freshman year. 596 00:35:29,676 --> 00:35:32,756 Speaker 1: I like cut off this whole social avenue because I like, 597 00:35:33,156 --> 00:35:35,276 Speaker 1: I was like, I can't, I can't be part of this, 598 00:35:35,316 --> 00:35:38,036 Speaker 1: and I sort of probably extrapolated and thought, like any 599 00:35:38,076 --> 00:35:40,876 Speaker 1: white person in an all white space might be doing this, 600 00:35:40,956 --> 00:35:44,756 Speaker 1: I'm just going to avoid them. I'm really proud of you, man, 601 00:35:45,396 --> 00:35:47,116 Speaker 1: as the first time I've heard that story, but that 602 00:35:47,676 --> 00:35:51,276 Speaker 1: makes me really proud. I had a very similar experience myself, 603 00:35:51,436 --> 00:35:54,916 Speaker 1: you know, growing up in this particular family. Even my 604 00:35:55,036 --> 00:35:57,316 Speaker 1: high school, which was largely white, was kind of West 605 00:35:57,356 --> 00:36:01,116 Speaker 1: Side story high school, like white Italians versus white Irish 606 00:36:01,196 --> 00:36:05,036 Speaker 1: kids with a couple of African Americans and Latino's mixed in. 607 00:36:05,916 --> 00:36:08,916 Speaker 1: But I went to West Virginia University, which was way 608 00:36:08,916 --> 00:36:11,116 Speaker 1: too much college for me. Crazy. I mean, I'm talking 609 00:36:11,116 --> 00:36:13,636 Speaker 1: about University of Rochester, you're talking about West Virginia. It 610 00:36:13,676 --> 00:36:15,356 Speaker 1: was the number one party school in the country at 611 00:36:15,396 --> 00:36:17,476 Speaker 1: the time, and I was such a terrible high school student, 612 00:36:17,556 --> 00:36:20,036 Speaker 1: so West Virginia made a lot of sense to me. 613 00:36:20,156 --> 00:36:22,116 Speaker 1: Is really one of the only options that would take 614 00:36:22,156 --> 00:36:26,836 Speaker 1: me at the time. And I have to say it 615 00:36:27,756 --> 00:36:30,836 Speaker 1: caught me off guard the casualness with which people use 616 00:36:30,916 --> 00:36:34,116 Speaker 1: the end word, both both in the sort of dramatic 617 00:36:34,156 --> 00:36:36,916 Speaker 1: way that you were describing, but then also just like 618 00:36:37,356 --> 00:36:40,076 Speaker 1: in everyday speech, as if it was a descriptor, like 619 00:36:40,236 --> 00:36:43,196 Speaker 1: the color blue, or to call the wet you know, 620 00:36:43,276 --> 00:36:45,676 Speaker 1: call it windy outside or something like that. It's just 621 00:36:45,716 --> 00:36:50,156 Speaker 1: a regular thing. And I hated it. I absolutely hated it. 622 00:36:50,956 --> 00:36:53,236 Speaker 1: And my reaction was to like check out, to be 623 00:36:53,316 --> 00:36:55,196 Speaker 1: not part of the culture, which also is not I'm 624 00:36:55,236 --> 00:36:58,156 Speaker 1: not saying that's an ideal thing to do. I wasn't 625 00:36:58,196 --> 00:37:00,516 Speaker 1: trying to change it. I wasn't trying to confront people. 626 00:37:00,516 --> 00:37:02,476 Speaker 1: I just was like avoidance. I don't want to be 627 00:37:02,556 --> 00:37:06,316 Speaker 1: part of that world. Well, I agree, I checked out completely. 628 00:37:06,356 --> 00:37:08,756 Speaker 1: I was I left the university after the first semester. 629 00:37:08,756 --> 00:37:11,796 Speaker 1: I went home and went to community college rather than 630 00:37:11,836 --> 00:37:14,996 Speaker 1: to return. I won't I won't make it entirely principled. 631 00:37:14,996 --> 00:37:18,156 Speaker 1: I mean I was also a way stroll and a drunkard, 632 00:37:18,396 --> 00:37:21,556 Speaker 1: and you know, basically bombed out of the college. But 633 00:37:21,916 --> 00:37:24,316 Speaker 1: I think a large part of it, the sense of estrangement, 634 00:37:24,356 --> 00:37:27,276 Speaker 1: the sense of distance, and the sense of alienation from 635 00:37:27,316 --> 00:37:29,836 Speaker 1: the culture, was that it just felt like I was 636 00:37:29,876 --> 00:37:33,276 Speaker 1: in a in a black and white movie about Jim Crowland. 637 00:37:33,556 --> 00:37:35,556 Speaker 1: This is this is why I love you guys so much, 638 00:37:35,636 --> 00:37:39,236 Speaker 1: because I imagine that all the white guys in my 639 00:37:39,276 --> 00:37:43,196 Speaker 1: life who are colleagues or like, you know, some kind 640 00:37:43,236 --> 00:37:45,476 Speaker 1: of friend from back in the day, would just not 641 00:37:45,596 --> 00:37:48,716 Speaker 1: admit to being in the circumstances that you guys have 642 00:37:48,796 --> 00:37:52,396 Speaker 1: just described being surrounded by people using in word at 643 00:37:52,396 --> 00:37:55,396 Speaker 1: one point, Matt, you describe it is like, you know, 644 00:37:55,876 --> 00:37:57,756 Speaker 1: these people know the worse so well they can go 645 00:37:57,916 --> 00:37:59,636 Speaker 1: bubbles out of it in their mouths. But I just 646 00:37:59,716 --> 00:38:02,636 Speaker 1: love the turn of phrase. But but this is this 647 00:38:02,716 --> 00:38:06,436 Speaker 1: is really important for black people in general, and it's 648 00:38:06,476 --> 00:38:10,476 Speaker 1: certainly important for me because I think it explains a 649 00:38:10,476 --> 00:38:13,876 Speaker 1: lot about the country. We live in just in terms 650 00:38:13,876 --> 00:38:16,756 Speaker 1: of attitudes and perspectives and why our politics are so 651 00:38:16,796 --> 00:38:19,236 Speaker 1: fucked up. And I don't I don't want you to. 652 00:38:19,756 --> 00:38:21,396 Speaker 1: I don't want us all to sit with the idea 653 00:38:21,436 --> 00:38:23,476 Speaker 1: that this is an old fashioned thing. Either like it. 654 00:38:23,836 --> 00:38:25,636 Speaker 1: This continues to be true. And I don't know if 655 00:38:25,636 --> 00:38:27,916 Speaker 1: it is for Ben or not. But if I'm alone 656 00:38:27,956 --> 00:38:29,996 Speaker 1: in a room with a white person and that person 657 00:38:30,036 --> 00:38:33,556 Speaker 1: has a grievance, I could just be sitting there eating 658 00:38:33,556 --> 00:38:35,436 Speaker 1: my lunch and the grievance is going to come out, 659 00:38:35,516 --> 00:38:39,996 Speaker 1: and I continue to play the play the role of 660 00:38:40,036 --> 00:38:42,436 Speaker 1: the person who is in the room with the person 661 00:38:42,436 --> 00:38:44,276 Speaker 1: who might not use the N word, but who will 662 00:38:44,316 --> 00:38:47,076 Speaker 1: say I got passed over for a job, or that 663 00:38:47,116 --> 00:38:48,796 Speaker 1: really should have come to me, or I think my 664 00:38:48,836 --> 00:38:51,516 Speaker 1: work is better, or I think I'm more important. And 665 00:38:51,596 --> 00:38:54,756 Speaker 1: we're talking about adult you know, male academics, Khalil, who 666 00:38:54,836 --> 00:38:58,676 Speaker 1: work in our industry. This is, you know, a part 667 00:38:58,676 --> 00:39:00,836 Speaker 1: of the every day that's still still very much with us. 668 00:39:02,516 --> 00:39:04,476 Speaker 1: So I read something in your book, I have to 669 00:39:04,476 --> 00:39:08,836 Speaker 1: say brought me to tears. And this conversation we're having 670 00:39:08,836 --> 00:39:12,396 Speaker 1: about the inward amongst white people is hard enough, but 671 00:39:12,476 --> 00:39:15,636 Speaker 1: this was personal and so I first of all, the 672 00:39:15,676 --> 00:39:19,716 Speaker 1: fact that you had been taunted part of your life 673 00:39:19,756 --> 00:39:24,436 Speaker 1: just because you had black siblings. But another part is 674 00:39:24,516 --> 00:39:28,996 Speaker 1: that somehow, as you describe, people associated you with blackness, 675 00:39:29,036 --> 00:39:34,796 Speaker 1: could you tell the story of how you experienced being 676 00:39:35,036 --> 00:39:38,196 Speaker 1: basically described as a black person because of some physical 677 00:39:38,196 --> 00:39:43,516 Speaker 1: trait of yours. Yeah, I was about twelve years old, 678 00:39:43,556 --> 00:39:45,596 Speaker 1: so this was. There were a series of incidents when 679 00:39:45,636 --> 00:39:47,556 Speaker 1: I was younger, including one and I talked about in 680 00:39:47,556 --> 00:39:50,196 Speaker 1: the book where I was chased through a small town 681 00:39:50,196 --> 00:39:52,236 Speaker 1: in New Hampshire and a group of kids who had 682 00:39:52,276 --> 00:39:56,516 Speaker 1: seen our family come into town were shouting the inn 683 00:39:56,596 --> 00:39:59,956 Speaker 1: word at me and cornered me behind a general store, 684 00:40:00,076 --> 00:40:04,036 Speaker 1: behind a strip mall. And that was dramatic enough. But 685 00:40:04,196 --> 00:40:07,916 Speaker 1: by the time I was about twelve thirteen in middle school, 686 00:40:09,116 --> 00:40:13,916 Speaker 1: had acquired a nickname end Lips, using the end word 687 00:40:13,956 --> 00:40:18,756 Speaker 1: at the front, and it became a kind of it 688 00:40:18,876 --> 00:40:21,956 Speaker 1: became a kind of drum beat in my every day 689 00:40:22,236 --> 00:40:25,596 Speaker 1: when I was you know, at a very you know, 690 00:40:25,676 --> 00:40:29,476 Speaker 1: middle school is hard enough, and nobody loves middle school, 691 00:40:29,516 --> 00:40:31,876 Speaker 1: so and you certainly don't want to be on display 692 00:40:33,356 --> 00:40:36,116 Speaker 1: when it was generally an all white school, So you know, 693 00:40:36,156 --> 00:40:39,076 Speaker 1: The only experiences with color we had as a as 694 00:40:39,116 --> 00:40:43,836 Speaker 1: a collective body were my siblings and me, and that 695 00:40:43,996 --> 00:40:48,676 Speaker 1: nickname really became a thing like it it it was. 696 00:40:48,836 --> 00:40:52,236 Speaker 1: It was a serial problem, meaning it happened daily. You said, 697 00:40:52,276 --> 00:40:54,996 Speaker 1: you just show up in spaces and people would just 698 00:40:55,036 --> 00:40:58,316 Speaker 1: start calling you that. Yeah. I I shut down, I 699 00:40:58,356 --> 00:41:01,396 Speaker 1: stopped talking. I didn't I didn't want to leave the classroom. 700 00:41:01,436 --> 00:41:02,916 Speaker 1: I didn't want to go to the classroom. I didn't 701 00:41:02,916 --> 00:41:06,196 Speaker 1: want to go to school. It was very difficult. Um, 702 00:41:07,156 --> 00:41:10,596 Speaker 1: you know, I I it's just a small taste, of course, 703 00:41:10,636 --> 00:41:15,356 Speaker 1: of other people's reality, but it was difficult enough. It's 704 00:41:15,356 --> 00:41:17,396 Speaker 1: so I mean, so now you're an adult and an 705 00:41:17,396 --> 00:41:20,036 Speaker 1: intellectual and an academic, and you can think about the 706 00:41:20,036 --> 00:41:23,516 Speaker 1: complexity of this. I mean, there's a way where you 707 00:41:23,676 --> 00:41:26,516 Speaker 1: wanted to be even closer to bear and and like 708 00:41:26,636 --> 00:41:30,836 Speaker 1: your sense of the racial differences to eclipse them in 709 00:41:30,876 --> 00:41:35,476 Speaker 1: some way. But this is also you're being racialized by 710 00:41:35,476 --> 00:41:38,756 Speaker 1: the white community and sort of you know, stricken out 711 00:41:38,756 --> 00:41:41,276 Speaker 1: of that community. Could could you unpack that even more 712 00:41:41,316 --> 00:41:45,356 Speaker 1: for us? Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you, you know, 713 00:41:45,396 --> 00:41:46,996 Speaker 1: And I tried to be very candid about this in 714 00:41:47,036 --> 00:41:50,356 Speaker 1: the book, as difficult as that might have been, my 715 00:41:50,436 --> 00:41:53,116 Speaker 1: instinct at the time wasn't to where this as a 716 00:41:53,156 --> 00:41:55,836 Speaker 1: badge of honor or or to say that that you know, 717 00:41:56,316 --> 00:41:58,756 Speaker 1: people were seeing the similarity between Bear and I and 718 00:41:58,796 --> 00:42:01,396 Speaker 1: that we were we were obviously connected, but instead to 719 00:42:01,476 --> 00:42:04,436 Speaker 1: run in the other direction and to just you know, 720 00:42:04,516 --> 00:42:09,796 Speaker 1: look for a kind of racial clarity and um and 721 00:42:09,836 --> 00:42:12,876 Speaker 1: a resolution that would make this nickname go away forever 722 00:42:13,116 --> 00:42:15,556 Speaker 1: and make the taunts in the hallway stop once and 723 00:42:15,556 --> 00:42:21,556 Speaker 1: for all. So I think, you know, my parents were 724 00:42:21,596 --> 00:42:25,356 Speaker 1: wise counsels. We had a lot of tearful conversations about this, 725 00:42:25,396 --> 00:42:27,236 Speaker 1: and it didn't ever seem to get better or to 726 00:42:27,276 --> 00:42:32,356 Speaker 1: go away. And eventually I asked for a surgical correction. 727 00:42:32,636 --> 00:42:35,996 Speaker 1: So I was taken for a plastic surgery consultation and 728 00:42:36,036 --> 00:42:39,556 Speaker 1: then given surgery on my on my lower lip to 729 00:42:39,596 --> 00:42:42,756 Speaker 1: try to make it look wider. There's no other way 730 00:42:42,796 --> 00:42:48,036 Speaker 1: to really say that, um, and you know, hold myself 731 00:42:48,116 --> 00:42:52,356 Speaker 1: up in my room while it healed, and hoped that 732 00:42:52,436 --> 00:42:55,236 Speaker 1: it would make the problem go away. And then, of course, 733 00:42:55,316 --> 00:42:59,396 Speaker 1: as these things turn out, it didn't. In the and 734 00:42:59,436 --> 00:43:01,756 Speaker 1: the nickname stuck with me really all through middle school 735 00:43:01,836 --> 00:43:04,796 Speaker 1: until I left for a different high school. I love it, 736 00:43:04,876 --> 00:43:08,396 Speaker 1: lips man that the lips are the best, the best 737 00:43:08,596 --> 00:43:12,996 Speaker 1: lips on white dude that I have ever encountered. You're awesome. 738 00:43:13,116 --> 00:43:16,956 Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say to that, but listen, 739 00:43:17,356 --> 00:43:20,876 Speaker 1: this is this is such an amazing story. Did you 740 00:43:20,916 --> 00:43:24,716 Speaker 1: and your siblings talk about this well? And I want 741 00:43:24,716 --> 00:43:26,636 Speaker 1: to just ask you that quickly, like you spend a 742 00:43:26,676 --> 00:43:29,236 Speaker 1: whole summer with a bandana around your face, as your 743 00:43:29,316 --> 00:43:32,156 Speaker 1: as your mouth heeled, and and so what did your 744 00:43:32,156 --> 00:43:35,396 Speaker 1: siblings say about all that was going on? You know, 745 00:43:35,476 --> 00:43:38,876 Speaker 1: I was way too ashamed, ashamed of that first instinct 746 00:43:38,956 --> 00:43:40,716 Speaker 1: right to sort of run in the other direction, way 747 00:43:40,756 --> 00:43:43,756 Speaker 1: too ashamed of that to talk to any of my 748 00:43:43,836 --> 00:43:47,436 Speaker 1: siblings about this. And I'm sure my parents came up 749 00:43:47,436 --> 00:43:51,756 Speaker 1: with a an anodyne explanation for why I'd had a 750 00:43:51,796 --> 00:43:58,276 Speaker 1: surgery like that. And what about today? What about unpacking 751 00:43:58,316 --> 00:44:00,276 Speaker 1: about it with them today? Well, I'll see what they 752 00:44:00,316 --> 00:44:02,116 Speaker 1: say when they read the book. Oh my gosh, are 753 00:44:02,156 --> 00:44:05,156 Speaker 1: you kidding me? You guys, your mom and dad, I'm 754 00:44:05,436 --> 00:44:08,636 Speaker 1: this is for real. You guys manage to pull this 755 00:44:08,716 --> 00:44:11,756 Speaker 1: off without ever saying to your siblings what you've been through. 756 00:44:12,476 --> 00:44:16,276 Speaker 1: I think so I don't. I don't know, I don't 757 00:44:16,316 --> 00:44:19,756 Speaker 1: know what they said. I think. So that's incredible, amazing, man, 758 00:44:19,996 --> 00:44:21,836 Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is another reason why this 759 00:44:21,876 --> 00:44:27,116 Speaker 1: book is so incredible, because the complexities, the absurdity. This 760 00:44:27,196 --> 00:44:29,956 Speaker 1: is our show, the absurdities and the complexities and challenges 761 00:44:29,996 --> 00:44:32,516 Speaker 1: of race in America. It's all on display in this 762 00:44:32,676 --> 00:44:37,116 Speaker 1: incredibly intimate but also you know this public family that 763 00:44:37,276 --> 00:44:41,316 Speaker 1: is variegated, as you say, racially. Um, I want to 764 00:44:41,356 --> 00:44:44,436 Speaker 1: ask you something about your sister Anna, and it's something 765 00:44:44,476 --> 00:44:46,796 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about from the book. So you go, 766 00:44:47,036 --> 00:44:49,756 Speaker 1: your whole career in some way is dedicated to the 767 00:44:49,796 --> 00:44:53,116 Speaker 1: history of race in America and in some ways studying 768 00:44:53,196 --> 00:44:56,316 Speaker 1: African American history. And I can see it coming out 769 00:44:56,356 --> 00:44:58,356 Speaker 1: of your dynamic with Bear in a lot of ways 770 00:44:58,396 --> 00:45:01,756 Speaker 1: and thinking about you know, so much of your experiences 771 00:45:01,756 --> 00:45:05,756 Speaker 1: confronting anti blackness. But there's another way where from your 772 00:45:05,756 --> 00:45:09,276 Speaker 1: own family experience, you could have become a historian of 773 00:45:09,316 --> 00:45:13,356 Speaker 1: either Asian history or Asian American history. Two of your siblings, 774 00:45:13,516 --> 00:45:15,996 Speaker 1: are you know, two and a half of your siblings 775 00:45:16,076 --> 00:45:20,236 Speaker 1: or from you don't have Asian heritage, and and you 776 00:45:20,316 --> 00:45:22,476 Speaker 1: don't that's not what you study, and there are these 777 00:45:22,516 --> 00:45:25,716 Speaker 1: moments in the book where Anna is like, hey, guys, 778 00:45:26,076 --> 00:45:27,836 Speaker 1: what the fuck what about me? You want to know 779 00:45:27,836 --> 00:45:30,836 Speaker 1: what I'm experiencing? And you know, so she's Korean and white, 780 00:45:30,876 --> 00:45:32,476 Speaker 1: so she's like, I'm out in the world and like, 781 00:45:32,556 --> 00:45:34,636 Speaker 1: Korean people think I'm not Korean, they make fun of me. 782 00:45:34,916 --> 00:45:37,516 Speaker 1: Japanese people hate Korean people, so I get it from them. 783 00:45:37,876 --> 00:45:39,836 Speaker 1: I'm not even sure what she gets from white people. 784 00:45:39,916 --> 00:45:41,916 Speaker 1: But there's like these two moments in the book where 785 00:45:41,916 --> 00:45:46,076 Speaker 1: it just erupts, and I wonder, like that says so 786 00:45:46,156 --> 00:45:50,276 Speaker 1: much about about beyond the black white dad, which is 787 00:45:50,276 --> 00:45:52,996 Speaker 1: something you call it in the book. You know, many 788 00:45:53,036 --> 00:45:57,116 Speaker 1: of us don't see this third way, whether you're Latino, Asian, 789 00:45:57,316 --> 00:46:00,116 Speaker 1: something else, Like you're sort of admitted from the conversation 790 00:46:00,156 --> 00:46:02,676 Speaker 1: a lot of times, and your book and your family, 791 00:46:02,716 --> 00:46:06,196 Speaker 1: I would say, also illustrates that. Yeah, I think that's right, 792 00:46:06,356 --> 00:46:08,676 Speaker 1: you know, Anna. Anna is the moral voice of the 793 00:46:08,716 --> 00:46:13,636 Speaker 1: story in several critical moments, and most particularly in that 794 00:46:14,996 --> 00:46:17,716 Speaker 1: chapter towards the end of the book where you know, 795 00:46:17,756 --> 00:46:21,756 Speaker 1: we've all grown too comfortable and too sloppy, using race 796 00:46:21,876 --> 00:46:25,996 Speaker 1: as a kind of comedic subject in house, as if 797 00:46:26,236 --> 00:46:29,156 Speaker 1: as if the family itself allows us or gifts permission 798 00:46:29,156 --> 00:46:31,916 Speaker 1: to us to be cheeky with the subject. But we've 799 00:46:31,956 --> 00:46:35,116 Speaker 1: also grown too far apart in a way. We've been 800 00:46:35,156 --> 00:46:39,436 Speaker 1: out of the house for a while now, and and 801 00:46:39,556 --> 00:46:46,476 Speaker 1: it's a moment of of of great challenge for me 802 00:46:46,676 --> 00:46:50,556 Speaker 1: personally when when we're we're in a dark space commiserating 803 00:46:50,596 --> 00:46:53,916 Speaker 1: about our father's passing and Anna calls me out on 804 00:46:53,956 --> 00:46:58,956 Speaker 1: something I say that's anti Asian, not anti black, And 805 00:46:59,836 --> 00:47:02,276 Speaker 1: at the time I'm a I'm a thirty year old man, 806 00:47:02,516 --> 00:47:07,596 Speaker 1: Like I'm not a twelve year old boy any longer. Um, well, 807 00:47:07,836 --> 00:47:09,836 Speaker 1: let me ask you about this, Matt, because there's like 808 00:47:10,036 --> 00:47:12,556 Speaker 1: there's a moment in your life when you're like, I'm 809 00:47:12,596 --> 00:47:15,436 Speaker 1: going to study the history of race in America and 810 00:47:15,476 --> 00:47:19,516 Speaker 1: I'm imagining that emerges from your family. Can you talk 811 00:47:19,516 --> 00:47:22,356 Speaker 1: about that and talk about why it becomes it's more 812 00:47:22,436 --> 00:47:26,076 Speaker 1: centered on blackness then say on Asian nous. It's a 813 00:47:26,116 --> 00:47:28,956 Speaker 1: great question, Ben, thank you, That's all I wanted, And 814 00:47:29,076 --> 00:47:34,316 Speaker 1: the show we're done for the day. Guys, I mean, 815 00:47:34,396 --> 00:47:38,116 Speaker 1: I don't I don't think, Um, I don't know that 816 00:47:38,116 --> 00:47:41,796 Speaker 1: I would necessarily say that's true about my own work. Yeah, 817 00:47:42,476 --> 00:47:44,116 Speaker 1: tell me, tell me I didn't want to. I made 818 00:47:44,156 --> 00:47:47,276 Speaker 1: an assumption, you know, in the um in the earliest 819 00:47:48,276 --> 00:47:51,156 Speaker 1: stuff I put together, I was much more interested in 820 00:47:51,196 --> 00:47:54,756 Speaker 1: people who didn't fall inside the white black binary. So 821 00:47:54,796 --> 00:47:57,476 Speaker 1: somebody like gene tumor. You know that the first book 822 00:47:57,556 --> 00:47:59,836 Speaker 1: I wrote, Coloration in America, was all about gene tumor 823 00:48:00,276 --> 00:48:04,476 Speaker 1: and all about tumors determination to be outside that diet. Yeah. 824 00:48:04,516 --> 00:48:07,636 Speaker 1: But a black poet, well, yeah, that's not how you 825 00:48:07,636 --> 00:48:10,396 Speaker 1: would discall himself like he he described himself as a 826 00:48:10,476 --> 00:48:13,556 Speaker 1: sort of mixed race novelist, the first self conscious member 827 00:48:13,556 --> 00:48:17,156 Speaker 1: of the American race, like he was, the comblination before 828 00:48:17,356 --> 00:48:21,156 Speaker 1: Tiger would exactly. But that has to certainly come from 829 00:48:21,196 --> 00:48:23,196 Speaker 1: your own sense of family. I mean, like even you 830 00:48:23,316 --> 00:48:28,836 Speaker 1: describing that is is somehow the the dream and the 831 00:48:28,876 --> 00:48:31,916 Speaker 1: experiment that your your family is engaged in. Yeah. I 832 00:48:31,956 --> 00:48:34,876 Speaker 1: think I think you know you're onto something there. And 833 00:48:36,156 --> 00:48:39,116 Speaker 1: I'll have to sit with this a little while. You know, 834 00:48:39,156 --> 00:48:40,996 Speaker 1: we do live in a world where the white black 835 00:48:41,156 --> 00:48:43,956 Speaker 1: dynamic dominates everything else. And I think a part of 836 00:48:44,516 --> 00:48:46,796 Speaker 1: what I have really struggled with is why why, Like 837 00:48:46,836 --> 00:48:49,876 Speaker 1: why that? Why? Why? That doesn't mean that I have 838 00:48:49,916 --> 00:48:53,396 Speaker 1: to look away from it. I'm not, um, trying to 839 00:48:53,436 --> 00:48:55,956 Speaker 1: provide an alternate narrative. I'm just trying to understand how 840 00:48:55,996 --> 00:48:59,476 Speaker 1: we got to this fixation on white and black as 841 00:48:59,556 --> 00:49:03,516 Speaker 1: the not just the two determining polls of the conversation 842 00:49:03,556 --> 00:49:07,076 Speaker 1: about race, but but really the color scheme through which 843 00:49:07,116 --> 00:49:09,476 Speaker 1: we understand it and talk about it. Yeah, yeah, you 844 00:49:09,516 --> 00:49:12,396 Speaker 1: have this. Uh, it's this really powerful line near the 845 00:49:12,476 --> 00:49:15,116 Speaker 1: end of the book where you say, the not so 846 00:49:15,196 --> 00:49:18,436 Speaker 1: secret truth of white people is that most of us, 847 00:49:18,756 --> 00:49:24,476 Speaker 1: deep inside hate people of color. Yeah, and that's just 848 00:49:24,516 --> 00:49:27,476 Speaker 1: I mean, those those are strong words, but I think 849 00:49:28,396 --> 00:49:31,276 Speaker 1: I have to say clear, the hardest word and that 850 00:49:31,356 --> 00:49:34,876 Speaker 1: sentence to write, was the word us. Like I think, yes, 851 00:49:35,316 --> 00:49:37,836 Speaker 1: I think the original draft of the book, I did 852 00:49:37,876 --> 00:49:40,476 Speaker 1: not have the word us. I had you know, is 853 00:49:40,516 --> 00:49:44,396 Speaker 1: they or yeah? Yeah, and uh. And you know it 854 00:49:44,476 --> 00:49:47,756 Speaker 1: was only you know, revision as a as an important process. 855 00:49:47,796 --> 00:49:51,676 Speaker 1: So it was only going back and reflecting on pronouns 856 00:49:51,676 --> 00:49:54,356 Speaker 1: and thinking about where I am in the book that 857 00:49:54,396 --> 00:49:57,556 Speaker 1: I've changed it to us because I am definitely you know, 858 00:49:57,596 --> 00:50:01,676 Speaker 1: a part of that that tribe. Man. Matt, congratulations on 859 00:50:01,716 --> 00:50:04,436 Speaker 1: this amazing book. It's courageous in a lot of ways, 860 00:50:04,556 --> 00:50:08,716 Speaker 1: very courageous writing this, and even to hear that sort 861 00:50:08,716 --> 00:50:13,436 Speaker 1: of whatever personal fallout is gonna it hasn't happened yet. 862 00:50:13,876 --> 00:50:18,596 Speaker 1: You're still awaiting that, and I'm curious to hear about it. Well. 863 00:50:18,636 --> 00:50:20,716 Speaker 1: Thank you both so much for having me on, thanks 864 00:50:20,796 --> 00:50:23,396 Speaker 1: for your interest in the book, and thanks to your 865 00:50:23,396 --> 00:50:27,596 Speaker 1: listeners for getting this far into the podcast. Hey man, 866 00:50:27,636 --> 00:50:30,396 Speaker 1: I'm really proud of you. And like I said, we 867 00:50:30,476 --> 00:50:32,356 Speaker 1: have a lot of drinking to do to catch up 868 00:50:32,396 --> 00:50:34,196 Speaker 1: on some of these stories, so I look forward to 869 00:50:34,196 --> 00:50:36,036 Speaker 1: that soon. I'll look forward to it. Love you guys, 870 00:50:36,116 --> 00:50:43,116 Speaker 1: Love you too, Love you too. Some of My Best 871 00:50:43,116 --> 00:50:46,556 Speaker 1: Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show 872 00:50:46,676 --> 00:50:49,636 Speaker 1: is written and hosted by me Khalil, Jibraan Mohammed and 873 00:50:49,716 --> 00:50:52,956 Speaker 1: my best friend Ben Austin. This show is produced by 874 00:50:53,236 --> 00:50:56,916 Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan. It's edited by Sarah Knicks with help from 875 00:50:56,996 --> 00:51:01,836 Speaker 1: Keisha Williams. Our engineer is Amanda Kawan, and our managing 876 00:51:01,916 --> 00:51:07,316 Speaker 1: producer is Constanza Gayardo at Pushkin. Thanks to Leitao Mulad, 877 00:51:07,756 --> 00:51:13,196 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, They're Fame, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Gretta Cone, 878 00:51:13,556 --> 00:51:17,756 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by 879 00:51:17,796 --> 00:51:22,196 Speaker 1: fellow chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. 880 00:51:22,596 --> 00:51:25,076 Speaker 1: You definitely want to check out his music at his website, 881 00:51:25,236 --> 00:51:28,396 Speaker 1: Avery R. Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on 882 00:51:28,516 --> 00:51:32,116 Speaker 1: all social platforms at pushkin pods, and you can sign 883 00:51:32,236 --> 00:51:35,316 Speaker 1: up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find 884 00:51:35,356 --> 00:51:40,316 Speaker 1: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 885 00:51:40,516 --> 00:51:42,556 Speaker 1: or wherever you like to listen. And if you like 886 00:51:42,716 --> 00:51:45,556 Speaker 1: our show, please give us a five star rating and 887 00:51:45,596 --> 00:51:47,596 Speaker 1: a review and listen. Even if you don't like it, 888 00:51:47,636 --> 00:51:49,756 Speaker 1: give it a five star rating and a review, and 889 00:51:49,916 --> 00:51:53,156 Speaker 1: please tell all of your best friends about it. Thank you. 890 00:52:04,876 --> 00:52:07,556 Speaker 1: I was thinking how awesome it would have been if 891 00:52:07,556 --> 00:52:10,276 Speaker 1: when Matt said he hadn't told the siblings yet about 892 00:52:10,276 --> 00:52:12,756 Speaker 1: all that stuff and when they were kids. Yes, if 893 00:52:12,756 --> 00:52:16,036 Speaker 1: we could have been like, all right, Matt, we brought 894 00:52:16,076 --> 00:52:21,996 Speaker 1: them on the show. Here. They are some of my 895 00:52:22,036 --> 00:52:24,556 Speaker 1: best friends. As Oprah, I love it