Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what.
Speaker 2: They mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to
Speaker 2: the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners.
Speaker 2: Wherever you are in the world, it is so great
Speaker 2: to have you here. Back for another episode, back for
Speaker 2: another topic, and today, back for another guest episode. I
Speaker 2: love doing these every now and again, and I'm super
Speaker 2: selective with the people that I bring on because I
Speaker 2: want them to really have something to say about the
Speaker 2: twenty something experience, about what it means to be, you know,
Speaker 2: growing up during this time and at this age and
Speaker 2: during this decade. And I feel like one of the
Speaker 2: main experiences a lot of us have, one of the
Speaker 2: universal twenty something experiences, is feeling incredibly behind and incredibly lost.
Speaker 2: And today we are bringing on someone who has spoken
Speaker 2: a lot about this, who has written numerous books about
Speaker 2: this experience. Dr Meg Jay. Thank you so much for
Speaker 2: joining us.
Speaker 3: It's my pleasure. Jima, I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 2: So if you don't know who make is, you've definitely
Speaker 2: heard of her work. She is the author of The
Speaker 2: Defining Decade, one of my all time favorite pieces of nonfiction.
Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah, So I am a development While I
Speaker 3: was saying, I love the title of your podcast, because
Speaker 3: that's my whole life. I'm a developmental clinical psychologist, and
Speaker 3: I specialize in twenty somethings, which is a thing. It
Speaker 3: wasn't a thing twenty years ago when I started, which
Speaker 3: we could discuss that later too, But you know, it's
Speaker 3: a very unique developmental moment. It has its own unique challenges,
Speaker 3: its own unique solutions, and so that's what you know,
Speaker 3: all my days and all my books are about.
Speaker 2: So what exactly drew you to really thinking about people
Speaker 2: in their twenties? I think it was a natural inclination
Speaker 2: for me. I started this podcast as someone in their twenties.
Speaker 2: I'm still in my twenties. What was the fascination for
Speaker 2: you with this, with this decade?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I believe it or not. I have been
Speaker 3: specializing in twenty somethings for twenty five years, so maybe
Speaker 3: for like, roughly your full life so far. And so
Speaker 3: when I started doing that, I was actually in graduate
Speaker 3: school at UC Berkeley. I was getting a degree in
Speaker 3: clinical psychology, and I was studying something called adult development.
Speaker 3: And when you say that to people, they're like, what's
Speaker 3: adult development? I thought adults were already developed. And you know,
Speaker 3: adult development is if you look at a twenty year
Speaker 3: old and you look at a hundred year old. Adult
Speaker 3: development is all the stuff that happens from twenty to
Speaker 3: one hundred. But when I started studying adult development, most
Speaker 3: of what was done there is about you know, midlife
Speaker 3: crises or you know, the elderly, or you know, maybe
Speaker 3: it was you know, the child rearing years. But there
Speaker 3: really hadn't been much of anything done on the twenties.
Speaker 3: And we can talk about this more in a minute,
Speaker 3: but it had been somewhat recent that the twenties were
Speaker 3: sort of their own developmental moment. That I mean, they're really,
Speaker 3: if you think about it, they're nothing like the teen years.
Speaker 3: They're not that like the thirty something years and beyond.
Speaker 3: They're really their own thing. So I was sort of
Speaker 3: discovering this, along with a lot of research about all
Speaker 3: the amazing developmental things that are happening in our twenties.
Speaker 3: There's more change between twenty and thirty than any other
Speaker 3: decade in adulthoods and I was living in a college town, right,
Speaker 3: so I was inundated with young adults and twenty somethings
Speaker 3: who were sort of, you know, my first clients in
Speaker 3: guinea pigs and all this. So it just and I
Speaker 3: had just finished my twenties, so it just felt like
Speaker 3: there was so much there. It was really where all
Speaker 3: the action is, and no one was focusing specifically on
Speaker 3: that space. And one of the ways I figured that
Speaker 3: out was a lot of people would come to my
Speaker 3: office and ask the same questions. I would tell them
Speaker 3: the same things, and I thought, you know, I need
Speaker 3: to be able to recommend a book for people. So
Speaker 3: I went into the bookstore looking for something back when
Speaker 3: people did that, and there was nothing. It was like
Speaker 3: the girlfriend's got dear twenties, you know, maybe there was
Speaker 3: just some couple of fluff projects out there. So I thought, wow,
Speaker 3: this is you know, an untapped need that there's this
Speaker 3: period of time which is very unique and people aren't
Speaker 3: really talking about it and focusing on and specializing it.
Speaker 3: So I started doing that and I have never looked back.
Speaker 3: I've never wanted to do anything else. It is just,
Speaker 3: to me, the most important decade of life. It's also
Speaker 3: super difficult, which we can talk about. But I love it.
Speaker 2: It's so funny. You was saying, like you've been doing
Speaker 2: this for twenty five years. It's like your career is
Speaker 2: a twenty something year old.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly, Yes, it's all about it's all about
Speaker 3: that decade, one way or the other.
Speaker 2: So you said something in there and you were like,
Speaker 2: it's the most formative decade, which I really agree, but
Speaker 2: it's also the most difficult. Like we it really exists
Speaker 2: in this vacuum between adolescents and what I sometimes refer
Speaker 2: to as like real adulthood, like in your thirties, when
Speaker 2: all the things that you thought, you know, you would
Speaker 2: experience as an adult, maybe getting married, having children, buying
Speaker 2: a home, they kind of for a lot of us
Speaker 2: are happening a lot later. What do you think creates
Speaker 2: this real difficulty for a lot of us during this period.
Speaker 3: Well, it's really that is that you know, you're absolutely right,
Speaker 3: adult milestones are now you know, in about adult milestones,
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, figuring out your job and finding
Speaker 3: a partner, picking a city, you know, maybe getting a home,
Speaker 3: maybe having a kid, like that's all sort of thirty
Speaker 3: than to twenty now, and so in the twenties, it's
Speaker 3: just this big, wide open period of uncertainty. There's a
Speaker 3: lot more to sort of worry about than there is
Speaker 3: to hold on to. The brain doesn't like that, so
Speaker 3: your mental health does not like that, and so it
Speaker 3: makes the twenties. You know, from where I'm standing, it's
Speaker 3: an amazing opportunity to work with people before they've made
Speaker 3: all their biggest decisions and to help them do that
Speaker 3: more thoughtfully, more productively, more happily. But it's from the
Speaker 3: other side of the room. The twenty something that I'm
Speaker 3: work with is living with more uncertainty than they will
Speaker 3: really at any other time of life. And that's what
Speaker 3: makes the twenties so hard, is that it's probably the
Speaker 3: only time of life where you'll wake up in the
Speaker 3: morning and you'd think, gosh, you know, I don't really
Speaker 3: know where I'll live in five years, or if anyone's
Speaker 3: gonna love me, or if I could pay my bills,
Speaker 3: or where I'm going to work, or if I could
Speaker 3: be happy. And that's really really hard. And I don't
Speaker 3: think we talk enough about how hard all that uncertainty is.
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about it now. Why is it that
Speaker 2: this uncertainty is so scary for us? Like, how does
Speaker 2: that manifest in maybe our behavior is even now mental
Speaker 2: health the patents that you see in twenty somethings.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'll geek out briefly on brain stuff. But
Speaker 3: but the brain interprets uncertainty as danger. And if you
Speaker 3: think about this evolutionarily, this makes sense. Like if you
Speaker 3: don't know what's around in the corner, you're going to assume,
Speaker 3: you know, it's a beyor not, you know, it's a
Speaker 3: little bunny rabbit, and things are fine. That's how we
Speaker 3: survive that. Your brain is wired to keep you alive,
Speaker 3: not make you happy. So when there's uncertainty, we're going
Speaker 3: to interpret it as danger. We're going to feel stressed.
Speaker 3: We're going to feel anxious. Some people get sort of
Speaker 3: avoidant and depressed. Other people reach for substances or you know,
Speaker 3: whatever they do to kind of manage that stress around. Yikes,
Speaker 3: I don't know what's about to happen in my life.
Speaker 3: So it's not something the brain likes very much. But
Speaker 3: in the twenty first century, it's this sort of staggering
Speaker 3: amount of uncertainty that twenty somethings live with I mean
Speaker 3: they live with it day in and day out for five, ten,
Speaker 3: fifteen years, and so that really takes a toll on
Speaker 3: people's well being, on their mental health. Life does get better,
Speaker 3: and we can talk about that too, But the twenties
Speaker 3: are tough, and I think we kind of maybe imagine
Speaker 3: are told that they're going to be this, you know,
Speaker 3: best years of our lives, but they're probably not, and
Speaker 3: you don't even want them to be. You want life
Speaker 3: to get better as you go.
Speaker 2: I say that a lot. Actually, I was saying it
Speaker 2: to someone before. Our twenties are when you have been
Speaker 2: probably the least amount of money you will ever be making, right.
Speaker 2: Your relationships are like up in the air. Everything feels
Speaker 2: so uncertain, you'll probably quite emotionally vulnerable. You don't probably
Speaker 2: like your job that much, and there is such an
Speaker 2: expectation of like, these are your best years. These are
Speaker 2: like you better like really hold on to them because
Speaker 2: once they're going, like they're going to be the source
Speaker 2: of all your nostalgia, all your memories. And I'm just like,
Speaker 2: is that really as good as it's going to be?
Speaker 3: I mean, let's hope not. No. I mean that's what
Speaker 3: I say to my clients. If your twenties turn out
Speaker 3: to be the best years of your life, something has
Speaker 3: gone terribly wrong, because empirically we know that. Actually it
Speaker 3: may be hard to imagine as a twenty something, but
Speaker 3: life does get thirty somethings or happier than twenty somethings,
Speaker 3: And even old forty somethings are happier than thirty somethings.
Speaker 3: Even the fifty somethings are happier. I mean it, Actually,
Speaker 3: people do become happier, more grounded, Their relationships are better,
Speaker 3: they have purpose, they have meaning, they have sort of
Speaker 3: that emotional stability that life security. So life really does
Speaker 3: get better. I'm not really sure how this kind of
Speaker 3: myth keeps perpetuating that your twenties are going to be amazing.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's some fun, cool stuff that goes on,
Speaker 3: but they're very hard and all those things you mentioned of,
Speaker 3: like you're broke, you're moving to a new city, don't
Speaker 3: have friends, new jobs, stressful, you know your boss is
Speaker 3: you know, stressing you out, et cetera. That's real, and
Speaker 3: you know, the twenties are actually, I think, well for
Speaker 3: most people, maybe more difficult than they are.
Speaker 2: Sometimes that makes me hearing you say that, because I
Speaker 2: I'm such an optimistic person. Right so, right now, I'm like,
Speaker 2: my life is like the best it's ever going to be.
Speaker 2: And so for some reason, when people are like, oh,
Speaker 2: it gets better at thirty, it gets better at forty,
Speaker 2: I'm like, but what if it can't get any better,
Speaker 2: so it has to get worse? Like what if I've
Speaker 2: got the inverse, like what if this is? What if
Speaker 2: I'm the exception like it?
Speaker 3: But then I'm like, yeah, yeah, I find that hard
Speaker 3: to believe because the reason life gets better, it's not
Speaker 3: like just this random growth curve you're on. It gets
Speaker 3: better because you as a twenty something whatever cool stuff
Speaker 3: you've built that you're super psyched about. And I'm very
Speaker 3: happy to hear that you feel like you have a
Speaker 3: great life. You're going to keep doing that. So you're
Speaker 3: going to build you know, there'll be more relationships or
Speaker 3: deeper relationships, or your career is going to just get
Speaker 3: even better, or your financial security will be better. And
Speaker 3: I mean that's sort of why it happens, is that people,
Speaker 3: I mean, there's generally an upward trajectory in life, and
Speaker 3: of course nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow, you know,
Speaker 3: with the big stuff, but you know, in terms of
Speaker 3: people's individual lives. I mean, I love it if you
Speaker 3: feel like you've already built a lot of good stuff
Speaker 3: in your twenties because you're just going to keep building
Speaker 3: on that.
Speaker 2: That's so so reinforcing to hear. The other thing that
Speaker 2: I that actually a lot of people, this is what
Speaker 2: I really want to talk about, is like feeling like
Speaker 2: there is almost it's a bit of a race, and
Speaker 2: feeling like it's a race to find the one. It's
Speaker 2: a race to buy a house, it's a race to
Speaker 2: have it all figured out. Why do you think so
Speaker 2: many of us feel this sense of just being behind
Speaker 2: during this decade? And what are we actually behind? Like
Speaker 2: behind what?
Speaker 3: Right? Well, that would be my question against clients. Do
Speaker 3: say but I'm behind, And I say behind?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 3: Behind? Who?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: If you say behind what, there's usually a who, Well,
Speaker 3: so and so has such and such and I don't
Speaker 3: have that, Or well my parents had X, Y and
Speaker 3: Z when they were my age, and I don't have that.
Speaker 3: So there's usually some person or some idea that someone's
Speaker 3: comparing themselves to. But kind of the maybe maddening, But
Speaker 3: a truly wonderful thing about your twenties and beyond is
Speaker 3: you can't there's just so many different paths. You can't compare.
Speaker 3: Like when you were in school and everyone was in
Speaker 3: the same grade and you could compare your biology test
Speaker 3: with my biology test. You know, it's just not the way.
Speaker 3: Not everybody's taking the same biology test anymore. And you know,
Speaker 3: we've all had different paths through life and are doing
Speaker 3: different things. So I mean, you really can't compare two
Speaker 3: different lives, but we do. So Usually when people say
Speaker 3: that they're behind, they feel like they're behind somebody or
Speaker 3: some ideal that they had. But you know, a lot
Speaker 3: of what I do is I like to say that
Speaker 3: education is an intervention, and so writing books and talking
Speaker 3: on podcasts you kind of get the real information out there.
Speaker 3: And you know, I remind people, well, let's look at,
Speaker 3: you know, the average age of some of these milestones.
Speaker 3: You know, in the US anyway, average age of marriage
Speaker 3: is like twenty nine, fir his kid is maybe thirty,
Speaker 3: home ownership is thirty five, and these are just averages.
Speaker 3: So the more career driven or educated you are, these
Speaker 3: things can often happen even later. Because you're spending more
Speaker 3: time in school. So you know, I think most of
Speaker 3: the clients that I have aren't behind, but I think
Speaker 3: they're worried that they will be, because it's these are
Speaker 3: such long form projects and you can't see, like I'm
Speaker 3: halfway there. You know that you don't know right that
Speaker 3: you don't know that you may meet a partner in
Speaker 3: two years, but you can't really know for sure. So
Speaker 3: I think they worry that ultimately they're not going to
Speaker 3: get there.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because I think that at the root
Speaker 2: of that is again that uncertainty, that instability of like
Speaker 2: it just feels uncomfortable to not know, to not like that.
Speaker 2: In that lack of knowing, it's like such a capacity
Speaker 2: to catastrophize. I think when you don't have all the information.
Speaker 2: I know you talk about this in your new book,
Speaker 2: like there's such an opportunity there to make up your
Speaker 2: own answers, to feel like everything that could go wrong
Speaker 2: will go wrong because you haven't seen the alternative yet,
Speaker 2: because do you have no real conception of what it
Speaker 2: will mean to meet the love of your life maybe tomorrow,
Speaker 2: to one day wake up and be in your own
Speaker 2: home and be super happy and not be dealing with
Speaker 2: work drama, friend drama, anything like that. And I just
Speaker 2: feel like, how do we become comfortable with the in between,
Speaker 2: with the period between kind of dreaming and realizing, where
Speaker 2: there is a lot of uh yeah, just unknown, a
Speaker 2: lot of blank spaces for us to seemingly feel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I love it that you mentioned catastrophic thinking.
Speaker 3: So as you mentioned to have a new book out,
Speaker 3: most people have read or who are listening to your
Speaker 3: podcast or probably read The Defining Decade, I've got a
Speaker 3: new one coming out called The twenty something Treatment, and
Speaker 3: it's really age specific mental health. It's like personalized medicine,
Speaker 3: twenty something mental health. And one thing I address is
Speaker 3: it's been a chapter called how to Think, but it's
Speaker 3: really about catastrophic thinking. So when you're face with uncertainty,
Speaker 3: the brain's number one go to is catastrophic thinking. And
Speaker 3: it's really similar to the brain interpreting uncertainty is danger. Right,
Speaker 3: It's like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to be happy,
Speaker 3: I'm never going to find anyone, I'm never going to
Speaker 3: make friends. You know what if I die broken alone
Speaker 3: that it's it's going to catastrophize and imagine the worst,
Speaker 3: and again that's your brain, you know, trying to protect you,
Speaker 3: but it's you know, that's a lot to a lot
Speaker 3: of kind of catastrophizing in a ten year period in
Speaker 3: your twenties. So we really have to work on shifting
Speaker 3: from that sort of what if mindset, you know, what
Speaker 3: if I never figure it out? What if my life
Speaker 3: goes sideways to what is or what else? And we
Speaker 3: can talk about that, just kind of shifting from fears
Speaker 3: to facts, or from from fears to flexibility, so that
Speaker 3: we can, you know, not just kind of stay stuck
Speaker 3: in the fears of what if stuff never works out?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, can we talk about it? Because I read
Speaker 2: so your team kindly sent me a manuscript of your book,
Speaker 2: and I was I devout. It was amazing. I was like,
Speaker 2: oh great, I feel so lucky. But that was the
Speaker 2: thing that really stood out to me, was this concept
Speaker 2: of the what is or the what else? Because I
Speaker 2: have not heard of that before, and it does feel
Speaker 2: like something that is very like just like one of
Speaker 2: those strategies where you're like, wow, how come no one
Speaker 2: ever said this? Like shifting it from like because I'm
Speaker 2: such a what if thinker and I'm a catastrophizer. I'm
Speaker 2: I'm a naturally very anxious person, and I always think like, oh,
Speaker 2: but what if they don't like me? What if like
Speaker 2: everything that I've built gets taken away? What if tomorrow
Speaker 2: I wake up and every single member of my family
Speaker 2: has died in a plain accident. Whatever. It's like always
Speaker 2: that and I and I have found it very hard
Speaker 2: to break out of that thinking. Sometimes that feels like
Speaker 2: once my brain is set or on the worst case scenario,
Speaker 2: there is nothing to disprove it. So can you explain this?
Speaker 2: What else? And what is the Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, actually I'll use the example you did it earlier.
Speaker 3: I mean you weren't quite catastrophizing, but you said, I
Speaker 3: worry that my life is just going to get worse
Speaker 3: from here. Yeah, you know when you said that because
Speaker 3: I've said, well, the data shows that probably your life's
Speaker 3: going to get better, but you you kind of said, well,
Speaker 3: but what if it gets worse, which is of course
Speaker 3: what you know, twenty something brain is going to do catastrophizing,
Speaker 3: So so that's your what if that's the fear? What
Speaker 3: if my life actually gets worse instead of better? I mean,
Speaker 3: of course that would be everybody's fear, so shifting to
Speaker 3: what is is actually kind of what I did with
Speaker 3: you about that of like, well, let mean, let's look
Speaker 3: at the facts. Let's look at the data. You actually
Speaker 3: said you've built a pretty good life now in your twenties, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know I have. It's pretty good. I'm pretty happy.
Speaker 3: Okay. So the facts are that you have. I don't
Speaker 3: know all the details of your life and not trying
Speaker 3: to get you to reveal that to me on the podcast,
Speaker 3: but it sounds like the facts are you've managed to
Speaker 3: create something good even in your twenties, which is very challenging.
Speaker 3: Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I just think all those other things like
Speaker 2: good friends, good family, I've got a long term partner
Speaker 2: that I love. It just feels like I've ticked everything
Speaker 2: off a little bit.
Speaker 3: Okay, So the facts are you did all that. So
Speaker 3: why would you completely like go sideways in your thirties
Speaker 3: and like lose the all the sort of the skills
Speaker 3: and the know how and the work you put into that.
Speaker 3: Why would that just go away?
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because you're saying it to me, and
Speaker 2: I can literally feel like irrational thoughts in my brain
Speaker 2: not be able to answer that question. But I think
Speaker 2: the thing I always come back to is this like
Speaker 2: sense of fate. This like I think it's like a
Speaker 2: huge impost syndrome thing that I think a lot of
Speaker 2: us in our twenties have where it's like, oh, I
Speaker 2: got all this just because I'm lucky, and luck runs out,
Speaker 2: so you're putting it in some bigger things hands rather
Speaker 2: than your own and like rather than think about your
Speaker 2: own skills and your own effort and your own labor.
Speaker 3: Right, So I'm saying I look at your life and
Speaker 3: a little I know about it so far, and I don't.
Speaker 3: I mean, my saying about luck is a wise man
Speaker 3: makes his own luck. So I would assume that most
Speaker 3: of what you have you've worked for a lot of that,
Speaker 3: and there's probably some luck involved, but probably even more
Speaker 3: sort of work or intentionality or care in cultivating that.
Speaker 3: So I would assume for the facts, well you're going
Speaker 3: to you're not going to know less about that in
Speaker 3: your thirties. You would keep doing that. So that's kind
Speaker 3: of shifting from Okay, my brain gets going on the fears.
Speaker 3: But what if I focus on some facts and I
Speaker 3: give myself credit for what is not what if, But
Speaker 3: what is the other thing to do? Because sometimes people
Speaker 3: are like, oh, I don't have any facts, I don't
Speaker 3: know anything. You know, this is could go either way,
Speaker 3: and so you think about the what else? So what
Speaker 3: else could I tell myself? Besides everything is going to
Speaker 3: go sideways, my life's gonna get worse. I mean, that's well,
Speaker 3: that's one possibility. What's another possibility? What else could you
Speaker 3: be saying?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because it's like it could stay the same,
Speaker 2: in which case, speaking from experience, that would be great,
Speaker 2: or it could get better. And I feel like that's
Speaker 2: a really nice thought I.
Speaker 3: Have, right, So just letting your brain kind of have
Speaker 3: these play with these different possibilities of Okay, you've got
Speaker 3: your what ifs, but you've also got your what is
Speaker 3: and you've got your what else? None of that like
Speaker 3: I know, I you know, this is not my first
Speaker 3: rodeo talking to Twist.
Speaker 2: On their way.
Speaker 3: No, none of that gets rid of the what if.
Speaker 3: But it does make your brain hold some other possibilities besides,
Speaker 3: like I am sure my life is going to be awful,
Speaker 3: and like we can't. You know, sometimes clients will say, well,
Speaker 3: help me stop doing that. I want to stop doing that.
Speaker 3: You will never stop doing that because evolutionarily, your brain
Speaker 3: needs to go like, oh my gosh, what if I
Speaker 3: mean it needs to do that. But I will say,
Speaker 3: as you get older and you have a more grounded
Speaker 3: sense of the what is it, does it But then
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, whatever, it's fine, or I'll figure it out,
Speaker 3: or I've figured this out five times before I can
Speaker 3: figure it out another couple of times, like that actually
Speaker 3: does happen. You have more what is.
Speaker 2: I really like hearing that I honestly what you said.
Speaker 2: Then the last point you made of you figure this
Speaker 2: out a couple of like five or six or whatever
Speaker 2: twelve times you've already you've done it before that it
Speaker 2: just becomes like such a skill set rather than feeling that.
Speaker 2: In our twenties, you know, so many of the big
Speaker 2: problems of like oh my god, I didn't pay my taxes,
Speaker 2: or like I don't know what I'm doing. I just
Speaker 2: got fired, or somebody just broke up with me, or oh,
Speaker 2: a friend of mine, like I'm feeling lonely. That's a
Speaker 2: big one, Like I'm feeling lonely. I'm always going to
Speaker 2: feel this way. It's like the first time that we
Speaker 2: really truly experienced that, especially because of how many major
Speaker 2: you know, you talked about adult development, and part of
Speaker 2: that is like social context, right, you know, you shift
Speaker 2: from a very structured schooling environment to being on your
Speaker 2: own and people moving everywhere and work kind of being
Speaker 2: the center of your life. And I remember to include
Speaker 2: like a personal story about this. I used to have
Speaker 2: such a problem with loneliness when I was in my
Speaker 2: early twenties, when I was younger, and anytime I felt lonely,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, this feeling is never
Speaker 2: going to go away. This is my life now. I'm
Speaker 2: a lonely person. And it was only until probably a
Speaker 2: few months ago and I was traveling and I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, it happens every time I'm away from home.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm a lonely person. This feeling's never going
Speaker 2: to go away. That I went back and was like
Speaker 2: looking through old journals of mine, being like, this is
Speaker 2: a pretty routine experience for me at this point, Like
Speaker 2: it's just like on a regular cycle. This is like
Speaker 2: every six months, I'm having this feeling. Maybe I should
Speaker 2: learn that actually it does go away. So I really
Speaker 2: like that, what else? And then also what is like
Speaker 2: I do have the skill kind of mentality.
Speaker 3: Yes, and you know, I mean you said a lot
Speaker 3: of really important things and they're one is what you
Speaker 3: were talking about. There are just so many firsts in
Speaker 3: your twenties. You don't have a lot of what is
Speaker 3: or data points or you know, maybe you can draw
Speaker 3: back on, well I got through this at you know,
Speaker 3: in school or a camp or in sports or whatever.
Speaker 3: But you know, there's so many firsts. I think people
Speaker 3: feel like the first time they get laid off, you
Speaker 3: know their lives are over. But you know after well,
Speaker 3: here's a factoid for you. Your average tw something's gonna have
Speaker 3: nine jobs by the age of thirty five. So by
Speaker 3: the time you're on job, you know, three or four six,
Speaker 3: you realize, okay, whatever, I'll get another job. I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, that's just that's what will happen. Or after
Speaker 3: you've had your heart broken three times, it still hurts
Speaker 3: because that's how the attachment system works, but you know
Speaker 3: you will survive it and you know, maybe even feel
Speaker 3: better and maybe and meet someone who's better suited for you.
Speaker 3: So you have more data points as you go along.
Speaker 3: And that's just one thing that's really hard in your twenties.
Speaker 3: It's part of the uncertainty is there aren't a lot
Speaker 3: of data points to say, I see what this is.
Speaker 3: I've gotten through it before, I'll get through it again.
Speaker 3: But you're accruing those now. So that's sort of what's
Speaker 3: happening with all these firsts and seconds and thirds as
Speaker 3: your brain is learning Okay, I can do this.
Speaker 2: I'm literally listening to what you were just saying, being like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, yeah, that's checking a lot of boxes
Speaker 2: in my brain, especially the heart break one as well. Love.
Speaker 2: You just feel it so deeply. I'm sure. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm not in my thirties or forties, but in your twenties,
Speaker 2: I remember, like it's not that the breakups have gotten easier,
Speaker 2: it's just that there is a sense of like that
Speaker 2: that they will end. In a way, it's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: you know I've done this before. I kind of have
Speaker 2: like a toolkit almost of like this is how long
Speaker 2: this is probably gonna last. These this is the first month,
Speaker 2: this is the second month, this is month six, like
Speaker 2: this is this is a routine now. Whereas I think,
Speaker 2: especially like when I was like twenty or twenty one,
Speaker 2: like that was world ending to me.
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, of course it's been there are yeah.
Speaker 2: Been there, done that.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's I've been there, done that more
Speaker 3: than once. But you know, I think many twenty somethings
Speaker 3: don't know that breakups are the kind of leading precursor
Speaker 3: to feeling depressed in your twenties. I mean, as would
Speaker 3: make perfect sense or you know, like a big attachment loss,
Speaker 3: and so people often feel quite depressed after a breakup.
Speaker 3: And you know, one thing I work with my clients
Speaker 3: on is that it does not mean that you're abnormal
Speaker 3: or disordered or sick. It actually means your your heart
Speaker 3: is working, your attachment system is working. If you really
Speaker 3: cared about someone and really loved someone and maybe even
Speaker 3: envisioned to future with them, you should be super sad
Speaker 3: if it doesn't work out. And I don't expect that
Speaker 3: to lift in two weeks. I would be kind of
Speaker 3: worried if somebody was like whatever, easy come, easy go
Speaker 3: after you know what felt like a significant relationship to them. So,
Speaker 3: you know, some of the struggles that twenty somethings go through,
Speaker 3: actually a lot of them anxiety at work or sadness
Speaker 3: after a breakup. This is normal developmental struggle. That actually
Speaker 3: shows that your brain and your heart are working properly.
Speaker 3: They're not indications that there's something wrong with you. If
Speaker 3: you're feeling stressed or anxious about work, or you're feeling
Speaker 3: sad about a breakup, that's what I would expect and
Speaker 3: hope in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: So actually, I want to focus on this a little
Speaker 2: bit more because there's an example you give in the book,
Speaker 2: and I'm am I going to spoil it. I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe it's up to you for it, go for it.
Speaker 2: And I've got her name or their name, but because
Speaker 2: of a breakup, she was like, oh, I have an
Speaker 2: insecure attachment style. I have a disorganized attachment style. Now,
Speaker 2: that is something that I see all the time. And
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's like sixty five seventy percent
Speaker 2: of us have a secure attachment style. But by the
Speaker 2: way that we are diagnosing ourselves using TikTok videos and
Speaker 2: social media, you would think that all of us are
Speaker 2: like anxious avoiding it, right, anxious ambivalentus.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: We talk about that a little bit more because it's
Speaker 2: one of my little secret like pet Peeves, when it
Speaker 2: comes to like online psychology, that.
Speaker 3: I mean, other people diagnosing themselves with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, people late, it's.
Speaker 3: It's having a moment.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: I'll have people come in new clients and they'll say,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm getting to know them, well, I have
Speaker 3: an insecure attachment style. I'm like, oh, I don't know,
Speaker 3: not so sure. So so there's a big difference between
Speaker 3: having an anxious attachment style and just feeling anxious, or
Speaker 3: having a bit insecure attachment style and just feeling insecure.
Speaker 3: And I would say that the vast majority of twenty
Speaker 3: somethings that I work with there, they don't have an
Speaker 3: insecure attachment style. They're they're in a state of insecurity.
Speaker 3: So an attachment style is something that you're saying, this
Speaker 3: is diagnostic and character logical and true of me across
Speaker 3: all situations, all relationships, all aspects of my life, all
Speaker 3: ages and stages. No, like, very few twenty somethings of
Speaker 3: mine would say, yeah, I don't. I'm not secure with friends,
Speaker 3: I'm not secure with my family. I'm not secure with anybody,
Speaker 3: you know, partners, boyfriends, girlfriends. I mean, that's when you
Speaker 3: have an insecure attachment style. And if it's been that way,
Speaker 3: consistently across time and across situations. Most twenty somethings for
Speaker 3: reasons we've already gotten into because of all the uncertainty.
Speaker 3: They're just feeling insecure. You know, they don't know who
Speaker 3: their friends are, they don't know if somebody likes them,
Speaker 3: they don't know if this person wants to go out
Speaker 3: with them, they don't know if this new relationship is
Speaker 3: going to work or not. That's just insecurity. That's uncertainty.
Speaker 3: That is not having an insecure attachment style. And I
Speaker 3: don't love for twenty somethings to you know, diagnose themselves,
Speaker 3: not just because they're often not accurate, but they can
Speaker 3: kind of wrap their identities around the sense of abnormality. See,
Speaker 3: I have an insecure attachment style, and if only I
Speaker 3: had a secure attachment style, maybe this relationship with work
Speaker 3: or someone would want to be with me. And that's
Speaker 3: usually not okay. So it's just normal to feel nervous
Speaker 3: and worried and anxious about whether a new relationship is
Speaker 3: going to last, or about you know, whether someone's going
Speaker 3: to text you back. That's normal. That's not like an
Speaker 3: abnormal attachment style.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like hearing that. Actually because I feel
Speaker 2: like there's definitely been points in my life right I've
Speaker 2: thought that that was who I was, And I really
Speaker 2: understand what you mean whereby we get really invested in
Speaker 2: these things being who we are, that anything that contradicts
Speaker 2: that that is us we deny and we suppress, when
Speaker 2: actually it might be like the gateway too much more
Speaker 2: open and better life. So one of the other big
Speaker 2: things about our twenties, and it's about feeling behind, but
Speaker 2: it's also about dealing with uncertainty, is like, how do
Speaker 2: I know that I'm making the right decisions. I feel
Speaker 2: like we have so many options of career pathways and
Speaker 2: people we could date, and cities we could live in.
Speaker 2: Something you talk about in the first book, though, that
Speaker 2: I think really applies here is this concept of sliding
Speaker 2: versus deciding. Can you talk us through that a little
Speaker 2: bit more?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, the sliding versus deciding is a concept. I mean,
Speaker 3: I've popularized it putting it in my book, but it's
Speaker 3: research by Scott Stanley really about living together, but it
Speaker 3: could apply to anything. But it's this sense of like,
Speaker 3: do we sort of slide into relationships because it happens,
Speaker 3: it's convenient, it's gradual. We didn't really think about it,
Speaker 3: or do we really actively decide this is the right
Speaker 3: person for me, I want to make this commitment, or
Speaker 3: this is the right job. I'm going to stay here
Speaker 3: another year for these very good reasons. And I think
Speaker 3: a lot of times, we know, what with relationships, whether
Speaker 3: you're living with someone or even at work, people can
Speaker 3: kind of slide into sticking around in something because they're
Speaker 3: already there. Well, it's just easier to stay another year
Speaker 3: than to imagine starting over again, So I'll just do
Speaker 3: another year, And so we can sort of slide into
Speaker 3: living with people, being in relationships with people longer than
Speaker 3: maybe we should be, staying in jobs longer than maybe
Speaker 3: it's really serving us, because it's the sort of the
Speaker 3: easier path. It's just something we can slide into rather
Speaker 3: than really saying this is you know, given all choices,
Speaker 3: this would be the best one for me.
Speaker 2: So I guess that's leads to my next question is
Speaker 2: how do we know which one is the best one
Speaker 2: for us?
Speaker 3: Because I feel, well, that is a good question. I
Speaker 3: actually think sometimes people slide because they don't want to
Speaker 3: face the fact that that can't totally be answered. So
Speaker 3: in my In my book coming Out you Know any Minute,
Speaker 3: the twenty something Treatment, I talk about what are called
Speaker 3: large world problems and large world problems or problems where
Speaker 3: all the options and the consequences and the outcomes can't
Speaker 3: be modeled. So like if you know, small world problem
Speaker 3: is you throw dice and you can, you know, bet
Speaker 3: on the chances of getting a three. You know how
Speaker 3: likely that is, you know, to get it, not get it.
Speaker 3: You can even bet some amount to win or lose.
Speaker 3: Those are small world problems. Large world problems are choosing
Speaker 3: a city, or a partner or a roommate, or a
Speaker 3: college or a job, or how many kids to have.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's all those problems where you can't model
Speaker 3: all the options, you can't know all the consequences, so
Speaker 3: you really you're making a decision amidst uncertainty, not amidst
Speaker 3: you know, known factors. So you know, so many people
Speaker 3: come to me because they want to know is it
Speaker 3: right to stay with this person or to break up?
Speaker 3: Or should I take this job or should I take
Speaker 3: that job? And there is no I mean, we could
Speaker 3: talk it to death. You can try to, you know,
Speaker 3: do an algorithm. You could go see a fortune teller
Speaker 3: and get your cards read and you know, but nobody,
Speaker 3: no one can hack that for you. That it's ultimately
Speaker 3: really that's what truly a decision is of Okay, I
Speaker 3: don't know, I'll never know which one is right or best,
Speaker 3: So there's not like a right decision. There's just my decision.
Speaker 3: So we kind of try to, you know, make the
Speaker 3: most thoughtful, intentional choice that we can. And then I
Speaker 3: think you reassess, you know, a year into the job
Speaker 3: or a year into the relationship, and do a real
Speaker 3: gut check of like, well, how did that choice pan
Speaker 3: out for me so far? Am I happy? More happy
Speaker 3: than unhappy? What should I be? You know, kind of
Speaker 3: paying attention to and then you decide, well do I
Speaker 3: sign up for another year of this or do I not?
Speaker 2: That's really interestingly, you do a gut check, how do
Speaker 2: you I like some of those questions you said, like
Speaker 2: am I happy? Uh? Then I would be without this person,
Speaker 2: without this job. What are some of the other ways
Speaker 2: that we can maybe sense dissatisfactional sense that there might
Speaker 2: there might be time to look for something that's better
Speaker 2: for us?
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. I often ask clients is there something that
Speaker 3: you're doing that you hope you're not doing in five years,
Speaker 3: or is there something about this relationship that you hope
Speaker 3: is not the way it is in five years. And
Speaker 3: if they say yes, then it's like, okay, well then
Speaker 3: why are we doing it now? How long are we
Speaker 3: going to do this now? That usually if people look
Speaker 3: out five years, like oh yeah, I definitely don't want
Speaker 3: to be in this dead in relationship in five years. Okay,
Speaker 3: well why are we here now? And how much longer
Speaker 3: are we going to hang out? Or the same goes
Speaker 3: for the job, or gosh, I hope my boyfriend and
Speaker 3: I aren't still having conflict about cooking or whatever in
Speaker 3: five years, Well, then let's fix it this here.
Speaker 2: That's I think about that a lot. I will say
Speaker 2: I'm in a great relationship. There's no I'm I've done
Speaker 2: the questions and they've never they've always turned. But I do.
Speaker 2: In previous relationships, I remember being like, I want to
Speaker 2: break up with this person, but I don't, but being like,
Speaker 2: let me just wait six months because I was like
Speaker 2: delaying the pain. I was delaying the inedible. And then
Speaker 2: I had a friend say to me and she was like, well,
Speaker 2: wouldn't you rather be six months into it in six
Speaker 2: months time rather than starting in six months time.
Speaker 3: And she was like, what good for her?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was like, oh wow, Like you're so she's
Speaker 2: like the time is going to pass anyways, Like you're
Speaker 2: going to get to the point, Like she's like, you're
Speaker 2: going to have to break up with this person. It's
Speaker 2: just whether you start the process now and then in
Speaker 2: six months time give me like, oh, thank gosh, I've
Speaker 2: done that already, or whether you wait and you delay it.
Speaker 2: And it's like it's emotional procrastination where you understand, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like you understand that there's going to be a
Speaker 2: lot of fallout emotionally and mentally from a big decision,
Speaker 2: So why not just wait? Why not just why not
Speaker 2: just make that a future you problem? And you don't
Speaker 2: realize that that future you is going to be there
Speaker 2: pretty quick.
Speaker 3: Like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, honestly. And that's like and I feel like it's
Speaker 2: interesting because I said this to some I always say
Speaker 2: this on the show, like you can reverse one hundred percent,
Speaker 2: Like the only decisions you can't reverse the ones that
Speaker 2: you didn't make. So I think, you know, it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: I guess having children, you can't really reverse that decision.
Speaker 3: But well you can always adopt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's true. But it's like, especially when it
Speaker 2: comes to career risks and career risks and wanting to
Speaker 2: move to a new place, wanting to travel, you know,
Speaker 2: there is so much regret in in action, probably more
Speaker 2: regret then taking action because at least again we're going
Speaker 2: to return to what you were saying before, Like when
Speaker 2: you actually do something about a desire or an urge
Speaker 2: you have, you're not faced with the what if being
Speaker 2: what if I'd done that righting right?
Speaker 3: And you learn, you learn something. But you know, I
Speaker 3: think sometimes this isn't exactly what you're talking about. But
Speaker 3: oftentimes twenty somethings will delay decisions so that they you know,
Speaker 3: sort of like keep all their options open so they
Speaker 3: don't make a decision, so nothing is like it's like
Speaker 3: they're they think they're stopping time. I mean, they're not
Speaker 3: stopping time. And not making decisions is a decision. So
Speaker 3: you're deciding, you know, not to break up with that partner,
Speaker 3: you know, you were sort of not making a decision
Speaker 3: on it. That's a decision. You were deciding to sink
Speaker 3: another six months into a relationship that you were sort
Speaker 3: of done with Yeah, and your friend was right to say, like, shoot,
Speaker 3: you could be six months through the breakup at this point, so.
Speaker 2: Definitely that's good. And I did stay for another six
Speaker 2: months there I probably should have listened to but you know, well,
Speaker 2: we absolutely But I like that idea of like you
Speaker 2: feel like you're buying yourself time, but like the time
Speaker 2: is still pausing, right, You're just.
Speaker 3: It's still passing. I mean, I think the thing with
Speaker 3: it's what's so different about being an adult versus sort
Speaker 3: of being in school is you know, there's no syllabus,
Speaker 3: there's no I mean, this gets back to am I behind.
Speaker 3: There's no syllabus, there's no schedule that you have to meet.
Speaker 3: The grading system is whatever you decide it is depends
Speaker 3: on your value system and what you're trying to achieve,
Speaker 3: not what other people are saying you should do or
Speaker 3: what the person sitting next to you is doing. And
Speaker 3: you know that means there aren't any right or wrong answers.
Speaker 3: There are just your answers, which seems kind of like
Speaker 3: an annoying non answer, but it's actually really liberating when
Speaker 3: you when you really lean into that of that's you know,
Speaker 3: I don't have to worry about whether I'm doing it
Speaker 3: right or wrong, or on time or ahead or behind whatever.
Speaker 3: None of that really exists. It's it's just it's your life,
Speaker 3: your choices, and you're going to make most of these
Speaker 3: choices more than once. And I mean even within one
Speaker 3: relationship that you know may last your whole life. Every
Speaker 3: day you're choosing how's that relationship going to go today?
Speaker 3: Or what am I going to work on or what's
Speaker 3: what conversation am I going to have with my partner
Speaker 3: to make it better. That we're constantly able to sort
Speaker 3: of improve the choices that we make.
Speaker 2: I like that as well. It's like not just a
Speaker 2: it's not just one decision, it's an active choice like
Speaker 2: throughout your life to be there, right to stay there,
Speaker 2: whether that's a relationship with job, a city. So I've
Speaker 2: got one final question for.
Speaker 3: You, Okay, all right, I'm ready.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know that's very anticlimacticve of me, although
Speaker 2: I do feel like you have a really good answer
Speaker 2: to this. What do you think of some expectations that
Speaker 2: we should like go of in our twenties that would
Speaker 2: make us happier?
Speaker 3: You know, I feel like you've done a really good
Speaker 3: job of focusing on that today. I mean, I feel
Speaker 3: like the biggest expectation that people need to let go
Speaker 3: of is that their twenties are going to be the
Speaker 3: best years of their lives. And we talked about this,
Speaker 3: but they're probably not going to be, and that's really
Speaker 3: really good news. That's a huge bummer if the best
Speaker 3: years of your lives or your twenties and then the
Speaker 3: rest of your life is all downhill. You don't want that,
Speaker 3: it's not probably going to happen, but you know, kind
Speaker 3: of feeling like everything's supposed to be amazing in your
Speaker 3: twenties is really sort of a recipe for heartbreak because
Speaker 3: it's a very challenging time. So I would say, bad
Speaker 3: expectation that everything's going to be great and or you're
Speaker 3: going to have everything figured out by thirty. I talk
Speaker 3: a lot, really in both books about there's this cool
Speaker 3: study I won't get in the weeds about at least
Speaker 3: it says eighty It says eighty percent of life's most
Speaker 3: defining moments take place by age thirty five. That is true. However,
Speaker 3: you know most of those defining moments are you know,
Speaker 3: happened in fits and starts, so I actually posted something
Speaker 3: on my Instagram the other day. It was a picture
Speaker 3: of me at thirty five, pregnant with my first child
Speaker 3: and getting my PhD, my diploma, and that was thirty five,
Speaker 3: and I was joking like, oo if I got these
Speaker 3: two in right under the wire. But when you follow
Speaker 3: them backwards, both of those projects started earlier. You know,
Speaker 3: I started studying to get into grad school, you know,
Speaker 3: in the middle of my twenties. I bumped into my
Speaker 3: partner for the first time in my mid twenties, and
Speaker 3: then met them again in my late twenties, and then
Speaker 3: we got married after that. So all so, you know,
Speaker 3: you don't really know like all these defining moments. They're
Speaker 3: probably going to happen by the time you're thirty five,
Speaker 3: and some of them may be happening in small pieces now.
Speaker 3: You just don't know it. So the idea that everything's
Speaker 3: going to be done by thirty is ridiculous. Don't stress,
Speaker 3: But you might have started most of these things. You
Speaker 3: just don't get to see the fruits of your labor
Speaker 3: quite yet.
Speaker 2: Wow. I really like that outlook, and it just makes
Speaker 2: things feel like very exciting and surprising.
Speaker 3: Yeah, life is exciting and surprising and want you want.
Speaker 3: I mean, I want your twenties to be awesome, but
Speaker 3: I also want your thirties and forties and fifties to
Speaker 3: be awesome. And I think if you lay the groundwork
Speaker 3: for that, then life really does get better. I mean,
Speaker 3: why would it not.
Speaker 2: What a positive way to finish. Thank you so much
Speaker 2: for this little little pleasure. Now I want to quickly say,
Speaker 2: you have just joined Instagram and everything I did. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you've done your first little like you've dipped your
Speaker 2: toes into social media.
Speaker 3: I have. I have.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: That's it's funny because I was off social media. I mean,
Speaker 3: to be an author, to be sort of out there,
Speaker 3: I was off social media more than you would expect.
Speaker 3: I didn't have an Instagram. I had a very inactive
Speaker 3: Twitter account. That was it. Whatever. I was just sort
Speaker 3: of off of it. And I think part of it
Speaker 3: was I was focused on writing books. You know, I
Speaker 3: have clients, and you know, I don't know how you feel,
Speaker 3: but I think a lot of clients maybe don't want
Speaker 3: to bump into their therapist on social media.
Speaker 2: I know. But the same advice that gave you like
Speaker 2: to everyone right right.
Speaker 3: So for me, it was more of you know, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna kind of you know, lie low and write books
Speaker 3: and try to reach people that way, which is super
Speaker 3: important to me because you know, and good therapy is
Speaker 3: not accessible and affordable not only to everybody, but really
Speaker 3: not to most people. So part of writing books is
Speaker 3: about getting that out there. But anyway, as social media
Speaker 3: has evolved, and as I have been convinced that hello,
Speaker 3: that is where people get their education and their information
Speaker 3: and their news now, then if I want to help people,
Speaker 3: that's where I need to be. Also that I know
Speaker 3: y'all don't want to see me dance or put on makeup.
Speaker 2: Brain that well, actually.
Speaker 3: No, that's not true. But you know now that it
Speaker 3: feels like obviously this is where a lot of people
Speaker 3: are getting, you know, good information, or they could be
Speaker 3: getting better information, and so I wanted to be a
Speaker 3: part of that of the better information.
Speaker 2: I really really like that because I feel like you
Speaker 2: have a lot to contribute. There's lots of misinformation out there,
Speaker 2: and it's nice to have people online who have degrees
Speaker 2: have like have done research on this stuff to really
Speaker 2: set the fact straight. So, well, where can people follow you?
Speaker 2: What's your Instagram name?
Speaker 3: Well, I'm Brand News to please come out and full
Speaker 3: force because I have like two followers, but I'm at
Speaker 3: doctor meg Jay on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, pretty much anywhere
Speaker 3: where people would be. I'm doctor meg Jay is the
Speaker 3: handle and I've just recently joined. So there's, you know,
Speaker 3: some stuff starting to put some videos up. But the idea,
Speaker 3: especially with the twenty something treatment coming out, is to
Speaker 3: get the content out because, like you said, there's a
Speaker 3: lot of misinformation and I would love to you know,
Speaker 3: kind of get it on that conversation and help people out.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Well, I'm super excited and I'm super
Speaker 2: excited for people to get their hands on your book.
Speaker 2: I'm going to leave a preyo to link in the
Speaker 2: description of this episode and a link to The Defining Decade.
Speaker 2: If you haven't read that book and you are a
Speaker 2: fan of this podcast, what are you doing? They go,
Speaker 2: so had and.
Speaker 3: Yell right exactly.
Speaker 2: It's funny. I hadn't even read it before I started
Speaker 2: the podcast, and then I started the show and I
Speaker 2: was like, oh my gosh, like this is so aligned,
Speaker 2: So I will yeah, I will leave a link to
Speaker 2: both of those. As always, if you enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 2: please feel free to leave a five star review on
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. Share
Speaker 2: it with a friend if you think that they would
Speaker 2: enjoy this they would get something out of this conversation.
Speaker 2: I definitely did. And if you have an episode suggestion,
Speaker 2: please feel free to send it to me at that
Speaker 2: Psychology podcast and you could follow me at Gemma Spake
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Speaker 2: will be back next week with another episode. Until then,
Speaker 2: stay safe and we will see you soon.