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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,

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Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big

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Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what.

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Speaker 2: They mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to

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Speaker 2: the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners.

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Speaker 2: Wherever you are in the world, it is so great

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Speaker 2: to have you here. Back for another episode, back for

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Speaker 2: another topic, and today, back for another guest episode. I

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Speaker 2: love doing these every now and again, and I'm super

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Speaker 2: selective with the people that I bring on because I

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Speaker 2: want them to really have something to say about the

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Speaker 2: twenty something experience, about what it means to be, you know,

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Speaker 2: growing up during this time and at this age and

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Speaker 2: during this decade. And I feel like one of the

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Speaker 2: main experiences a lot of us have, one of the

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Speaker 2: universal twenty something experiences, is feeling incredibly behind and incredibly lost.

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Speaker 2: And today we are bringing on someone who has spoken

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Speaker 2: a lot about this, who has written numerous books about

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Speaker 2: this experience. Dr Meg Jay. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: joining us.

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Speaker 3: It's my pleasure. Jima, I'm so glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: So if you don't know who make is, you've definitely

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Speaker 2: heard of her work. She is the author of The

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Speaker 2: Defining Decade, one of my all time favorite pieces of nonfiction.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah, So I am a development While I

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Speaker 3: was saying, I love the title of your podcast, because

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Speaker 3: that's my whole life. I'm a developmental clinical psychologist, and

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Speaker 3: I specialize in twenty somethings, which is a thing. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't a thing twenty years ago when I started, which

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Speaker 3: we could discuss that later too, But you know, it's

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Speaker 3: a very unique developmental moment. It has its own unique challenges,

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Speaker 3: its own unique solutions, and so that's what you know,

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Speaker 3: all my days and all my books are about.

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Speaker 2: So what exactly drew you to really thinking about people

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Speaker 2: in their twenties? I think it was a natural inclination

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Speaker 2: for me. I started this podcast as someone in their twenties.

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Speaker 2: I'm still in my twenties. What was the fascination for

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Speaker 2: you with this, with this decade?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I believe it or not. I have been

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Speaker 3: specializing in twenty somethings for twenty five years, so maybe

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Speaker 3: for like, roughly your full life so far. And so

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Speaker 3: when I started doing that, I was actually in graduate

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Speaker 3: school at UC Berkeley. I was getting a degree in

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Speaker 3: clinical psychology, and I was studying something called adult development.

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Speaker 3: And when you say that to people, they're like, what's

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Speaker 3: adult development? I thought adults were already developed. And you know,

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Speaker 3: adult development is if you look at a twenty year

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Speaker 3: old and you look at a hundred year old. Adult

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Speaker 3: development is all the stuff that happens from twenty to

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Speaker 3: one hundred. But when I started studying adult development, most

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Speaker 3: of what was done there is about you know, midlife

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Speaker 3: crises or you know, the elderly, or you know, maybe

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Speaker 3: it was you know, the child rearing years. But there

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Speaker 3: really hadn't been much of anything done on the twenties.

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Speaker 3: And we can talk about this more in a minute,

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Speaker 3: but it had been somewhat recent that the twenties were

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Speaker 3: sort of their own developmental moment. That I mean, they're really,

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Speaker 3: if you think about it, they're nothing like the teen years.

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Speaker 3: They're not that like the thirty something years and beyond.

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Speaker 3: They're really their own thing. So I was sort of

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Speaker 3: discovering this, along with a lot of research about all

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Speaker 3: the amazing developmental things that are happening in our twenties.

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Speaker 3: There's more change between twenty and thirty than any other

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Speaker 3: decade in adulthoods and I was living in a college town, right,

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Speaker 3: so I was inundated with young adults and twenty somethings

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Speaker 3: who were sort of, you know, my first clients in

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Speaker 3: guinea pigs and all this. So it just and I

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Speaker 3: had just finished my twenties, so it just felt like

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Speaker 3: there was so much there. It was really where all

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Speaker 3: the action is, and no one was focusing specifically on

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Speaker 3: that space. And one of the ways I figured that

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Speaker 3: out was a lot of people would come to my

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Speaker 3: office and ask the same questions. I would tell them

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Speaker 3: the same things, and I thought, you know, I need

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Speaker 3: to be able to recommend a book for people. So

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Speaker 3: I went into the bookstore looking for something back when

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Speaker 3: people did that, and there was nothing. It was like

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Speaker 3: the girlfriend's got dear twenties, you know, maybe there was

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Speaker 3: just some couple of fluff projects out there. So I thought, wow,

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Speaker 3: this is you know, an untapped need that there's this

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Speaker 3: period of time which is very unique and people aren't

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Speaker 3: really talking about it and focusing on and specializing it.

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Speaker 3: So I started doing that and I have never looked back.

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Speaker 3: I've never wanted to do anything else. It is just,

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Speaker 3: to me, the most important decade of life. It's also

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Speaker 3: super difficult, which we can talk about. But I love it.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny. You was saying, like you've been doing

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Speaker 2: this for twenty five years. It's like your career is

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Speaker 2: a twenty something year old.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, exactly, Yes, it's all about it's all about

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Speaker 3: that decade, one way or the other.

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Speaker 2: So you said something in there and you were like,

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Speaker 2: it's the most formative decade, which I really agree, but

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Speaker 2: it's also the most difficult. Like we it really exists

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Speaker 2: in this vacuum between adolescents and what I sometimes refer

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Speaker 2: to as like real adulthood, like in your thirties, when

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Speaker 2: all the things that you thought, you know, you would

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Speaker 2: experience as an adult, maybe getting married, having children, buying

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Speaker 2: a home, they kind of for a lot of us

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Speaker 2: are happening a lot later. What do you think creates

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Speaker 2: this real difficulty for a lot of us during this period.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's really that is that you know, you're absolutely right,

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Speaker 3: adult milestones are now you know, in about adult milestones,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, figuring out your job and finding

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Speaker 3: a partner, picking a city, you know, maybe getting a home,

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Speaker 3: maybe having a kid, like that's all sort of thirty

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Speaker 3: than to twenty now, and so in the twenties, it's

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Speaker 3: just this big, wide open period of uncertainty. There's a

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Speaker 3: lot more to sort of worry about than there is

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Speaker 3: to hold on to. The brain doesn't like that, so

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Speaker 3: your mental health does not like that, and so it

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Speaker 3: makes the twenties. You know, from where I'm standing, it's

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Speaker 3: an amazing opportunity to work with people before they've made

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Speaker 3: all their biggest decisions and to help them do that

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Speaker 3: more thoughtfully, more productively, more happily. But it's from the

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Speaker 3: other side of the room. The twenty something that I'm

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Speaker 3: work with is living with more uncertainty than they will

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Speaker 3: really at any other time of life. And that's what

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Speaker 3: makes the twenties so hard, is that it's probably the

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Speaker 3: only time of life where you'll wake up in the

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Speaker 3: morning and you'd think, gosh, you know, I don't really

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Speaker 3: know where I'll live in five years, or if anyone's

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Speaker 3: gonna love me, or if I could pay my bills,

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Speaker 3: or where I'm going to work, or if I could

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Speaker 3: be happy. And that's really really hard. And I don't

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Speaker 3: think we talk enough about how hard all that uncertainty is.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about it now. Why is it that

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Speaker 2: this uncertainty is so scary for us? Like, how does

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Speaker 2: that manifest in maybe our behavior is even now mental

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Speaker 2: health the patents that you see in twenty somethings.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'll geek out briefly on brain stuff. But

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Speaker 3: but the brain interprets uncertainty as danger. And if you

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Speaker 3: think about this evolutionarily, this makes sense. Like if you

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Speaker 3: don't know what's around in the corner, you're going to assume,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's a beyor not, you know, it's a

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Speaker 3: little bunny rabbit, and things are fine. That's how we

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Speaker 3: survive that. Your brain is wired to keep you alive,

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Speaker 3: not make you happy. So when there's uncertainty, we're going

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Speaker 3: to interpret it as danger. We're going to feel stressed.

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Speaker 3: We're going to feel anxious. Some people get sort of

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Speaker 3: avoidant and depressed. Other people reach for substances or you know,

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Speaker 3: whatever they do to kind of manage that stress around. Yikes,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what's about to happen in my life.

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Speaker 3: So it's not something the brain likes very much. But

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Speaker 3: in the twenty first century, it's this sort of staggering

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Speaker 3: amount of uncertainty that twenty somethings live with I mean

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Speaker 3: they live with it day in and day out for five, ten,

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Speaker 3: fifteen years, and so that really takes a toll on

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Speaker 3: people's well being, on their mental health. Life does get better,

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Speaker 3: and we can talk about that too, But the twenties

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Speaker 3: are tough, and I think we kind of maybe imagine

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Speaker 3: are told that they're going to be this, you know,

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Speaker 3: best years of our lives, but they're probably not, and

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Speaker 3: you don't even want them to be. You want life

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Speaker 3: to get better as you go.

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Speaker 2: I say that a lot. Actually, I was saying it

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Speaker 2: to someone before. Our twenties are when you have been

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Speaker 2: probably the least amount of money you will ever be making, right.

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Speaker 2: Your relationships are like up in the air. Everything feels

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Speaker 2: so uncertain, you'll probably quite emotionally vulnerable. You don't probably

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Speaker 2: like your job that much, and there is such an

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Speaker 2: expectation of like, these are your best years. These are

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Speaker 2: like you better like really hold on to them because

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Speaker 2: once they're going, like they're going to be the source

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Speaker 2: of all your nostalgia, all your memories. And I'm just like,

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Speaker 2: is that really as good as it's going to be?

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Speaker 3: I mean, let's hope not. No. I mean that's what

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Speaker 3: I say to my clients. If your twenties turn out

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Speaker 3: to be the best years of your life, something has

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Speaker 3: gone terribly wrong, because empirically we know that. Actually it

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Speaker 3: may be hard to imagine as a twenty something, but

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Speaker 3: life does get thirty somethings or happier than twenty somethings,

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Speaker 3: And even old forty somethings are happier than thirty somethings.

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Speaker 3: Even the fifty somethings are happier. I mean it, Actually,

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Speaker 3: people do become happier, more grounded, Their relationships are better,

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Speaker 3: they have purpose, they have meaning, they have sort of

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Speaker 3: that emotional stability that life security. So life really does

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Speaker 3: get better. I'm not really sure how this kind of

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Speaker 3: myth keeps perpetuating that your twenties are going to be amazing.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's some fun, cool stuff that goes on,

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Speaker 3: but they're very hard and all those things you mentioned of,

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Speaker 3: like you're broke, you're moving to a new city, don't

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Speaker 3: have friends, new jobs, stressful, you know your boss is

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Speaker 3: you know, stressing you out, et cetera. That's real, and

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Speaker 3: you know, the twenties are actually, I think, well for

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Speaker 3: most people, maybe more difficult than they are.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes that makes me hearing you say that, because I

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Speaker 2: I'm such an optimistic person. Right so, right now, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: my life is like the best it's ever going to be.

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Speaker 2: And so for some reason, when people are like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it gets better at thirty, it gets better at forty,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, but what if it can't get any better,

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Speaker 2: so it has to get worse? Like what if I've

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Speaker 2: got the inverse, like what if this is? What if

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Speaker 2: I'm the exception like it?

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Speaker 3: But then I'm like, yeah, yeah, I find that hard

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Speaker 3: to believe because the reason life gets better, it's not

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Speaker 3: like just this random growth curve you're on. It gets

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Speaker 3: better because you as a twenty something whatever cool stuff

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Speaker 3: you've built that you're super psyched about. And I'm very

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Speaker 3: happy to hear that you feel like you have a

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Speaker 3: great life. You're going to keep doing that. So you're

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Speaker 3: going to build you know, there'll be more relationships or

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Speaker 3: deeper relationships, or your career is going to just get

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Speaker 3: even better, or your financial security will be better. And

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Speaker 3: I mean that's sort of why it happens, is that people,

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's generally an upward trajectory in life, and

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Speaker 3: of course nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow, you know,

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Speaker 3: with the big stuff, but you know, in terms of

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Speaker 3: people's individual lives. I mean, I love it if you

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Speaker 3: feel like you've already built a lot of good stuff

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Speaker 3: in your twenties because you're just going to keep building

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Speaker 3: on that.

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Speaker 2: That's so so reinforcing to hear. The other thing that

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Speaker 2: I that actually a lot of people, this is what

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Speaker 2: I really want to talk about, is like feeling like

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Speaker 2: there is almost it's a bit of a race, and

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Speaker 2: feeling like it's a race to find the one. It's

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Speaker 2: a race to buy a house, it's a race to

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Speaker 2: have it all figured out. Why do you think so

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Speaker 2: many of us feel this sense of just being behind

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Speaker 2: during this decade? And what are we actually behind? Like

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Speaker 2: behind what?

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Speaker 3: Right? Well, that would be my question against clients. Do

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Speaker 3: say but I'm behind, And I say behind?

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 3: Behind? Who?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 3: If you say behind what, there's usually a who, Well,

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Speaker 3: so and so has such and such and I don't

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Speaker 3: have that, Or well my parents had X, Y and

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Speaker 3: Z when they were my age, and I don't have that.

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Speaker 3: So there's usually some person or some idea that someone's

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Speaker 3: comparing themselves to. But kind of the maybe maddening, But

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Speaker 3: a truly wonderful thing about your twenties and beyond is

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Speaker 3: you can't there's just so many different paths. You can't compare.

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Speaker 3: Like when you were in school and everyone was in

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Speaker 3: the same grade and you could compare your biology test

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Speaker 3: with my biology test. You know, it's just not the way.

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Speaker 3: Not everybody's taking the same biology test anymore. And you know,

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Speaker 3: we've all had different paths through life and are doing

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Speaker 3: different things. So I mean, you really can't compare two

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Speaker 3: different lives, but we do. So Usually when people say

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Speaker 3: that they're behind, they feel like they're behind somebody or

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Speaker 3: some ideal that they had. But you know, a lot

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Speaker 3: of what I do is I like to say that

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Speaker 3: education is an intervention, and so writing books and talking

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Speaker 3: on podcasts you kind of get the real information out there.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I remind people, well, let's look at,

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Speaker 3: you know, the average age of some of these milestones.

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Speaker 3: You know, in the US anyway, average age of marriage

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Speaker 3: is like twenty nine, fir his kid is maybe thirty,

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Speaker 3: home ownership is thirty five, and these are just averages.

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Speaker 3: So the more career driven or educated you are, these

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Speaker 3: things can often happen even later. Because you're spending more

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Speaker 3: time in school. So you know, I think most of

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Speaker 3: the clients that I have aren't behind, but I think

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Speaker 3: they're worried that they will be, because it's these are

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Speaker 3: such long form projects and you can't see, like I'm

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Speaker 3: halfway there. You know that you don't know right that

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Speaker 3: you don't know that you may meet a partner in

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Speaker 3: two years, but you can't really know for sure. So

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Speaker 3: I think they worry that ultimately they're not going to

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Speaker 3: get there.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting because I think that at the root

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Speaker 2: of that is again that uncertainty, that instability of like

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Speaker 2: it just feels uncomfortable to not know, to not like that.

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Speaker 2: In that lack of knowing, it's like such a capacity

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Speaker 2: to catastrophize. I think when you don't have all the information.

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Speaker 2: I know you talk about this in your new book,

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Speaker 2: like there's such an opportunity there to make up your

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Speaker 2: own answers, to feel like everything that could go wrong

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Speaker 2: will go wrong because you haven't seen the alternative yet,

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Speaker 2: because do you have no real conception of what it

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Speaker 2: will mean to meet the love of your life maybe tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: to one day wake up and be in your own

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Speaker 2: home and be super happy and not be dealing with

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Speaker 2: work drama, friend drama, anything like that. And I just

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Speaker 2: feel like, how do we become comfortable with the in between,

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Speaker 2: with the period between kind of dreaming and realizing, where

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Speaker 2: there is a lot of uh yeah, just unknown, a

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Speaker 2: lot of blank spaces for us to seemingly feel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I love it that you mentioned catastrophic thinking.

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Speaker 3: So as you mentioned to have a new book out,

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Speaker 3: most people have read or who are listening to your

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Speaker 3: podcast or probably read The Defining Decade, I've got a

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Speaker 3: new one coming out called The twenty something Treatment, and

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Speaker 3: it's really age specific mental health. It's like personalized medicine,

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Speaker 3: twenty something mental health. And one thing I address is

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Speaker 3: it's been a chapter called how to Think, but it's

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Speaker 3: really about catastrophic thinking. So when you're face with uncertainty,

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Speaker 3: the brain's number one go to is catastrophic thinking. And

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Speaker 3: it's really similar to the brain interpreting uncertainty is danger. Right,

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Speaker 3: It's like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to be happy,

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Speaker 3: I'm never going to find anyone, I'm never going to

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Speaker 3: make friends. You know what if I die broken alone

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Speaker 3: that it's it's going to catastrophize and imagine the worst,

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Speaker 3: and again that's your brain, you know, trying to protect you,

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Speaker 3: but it's you know, that's a lot to a lot

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Speaker 3: of kind of catastrophizing in a ten year period in

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Speaker 3: your twenties. So we really have to work on shifting

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Speaker 3: from that sort of what if mindset, you know, what

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Speaker 3: if I never figure it out? What if my life

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Speaker 3: goes sideways to what is or what else? And we

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Speaker 3: can talk about that, just kind of shifting from fears

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Speaker 3: to facts, or from from fears to flexibility, so that

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Speaker 3: we can, you know, not just kind of stay stuck

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Speaker 3: in the fears of what if stuff never works out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, can we talk about it? Because I read

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Speaker 2: so your team kindly sent me a manuscript of your book,

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Speaker 2: and I was I devout. It was amazing. I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh great, I feel so lucky. But that was the

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Speaker 2: thing that really stood out to me, was this concept

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Speaker 2: of the what is or the what else? Because I

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Speaker 2: have not heard of that before, and it does feel

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Speaker 2: like something that is very like just like one of

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Speaker 2: those strategies where you're like, wow, how come no one

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Speaker 2: ever said this? Like shifting it from like because I'm

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Speaker 2: such a what if thinker and I'm a catastrophizer. I'm

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Speaker 2: I'm a naturally very anxious person, and I always think like, oh,

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Speaker 2: but what if they don't like me? What if like

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Speaker 2: everything that I've built gets taken away? What if tomorrow

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Speaker 2: I wake up and every single member of my family

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Speaker 2: has died in a plain accident. Whatever. It's like always

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Speaker 2: that and I and I have found it very hard

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Speaker 2: to break out of that thinking. Sometimes that feels like

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Speaker 2: once my brain is set or on the worst case scenario,

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Speaker 2: there is nothing to disprove it. So can you explain this?

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Speaker 2: What else? And what is the Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, actually I'll use the example you did it earlier.

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Speaker 3: I mean you weren't quite catastrophizing, but you said, I

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Speaker 3: worry that my life is just going to get worse

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Speaker 3: from here. Yeah, you know when you said that because

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Speaker 3: I've said, well, the data shows that probably your life's

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Speaker 3: going to get better, but you you kind of said, well,

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Speaker 3: but what if it gets worse, which is of course

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Speaker 3: what you know, twenty something brain is going to do catastrophizing,

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Speaker 3: So so that's your what if that's the fear? What

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Speaker 3: if my life actually gets worse instead of better? I mean,

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Speaker 3: of course that would be everybody's fear, so shifting to

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Speaker 3: what is is actually kind of what I did with

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Speaker 3: you about that of like, well, let mean, let's look

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Speaker 3: at the facts. Let's look at the data. You actually

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Speaker 3: said you've built a pretty good life now in your twenties, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know I have. It's pretty good. I'm pretty happy.

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Speaker 3: Okay. So the facts are that you have. I don't

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Speaker 3: know all the details of your life and not trying

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Speaker 3: to get you to reveal that to me on the podcast,

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Speaker 3: but it sounds like the facts are you've managed to

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Speaker 3: create something good even in your twenties, which is very challenging.

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Speaker 3: Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? And I just think all those other things like

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Speaker 2: good friends, good family, I've got a long term partner

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Speaker 2: that I love. It just feels like I've ticked everything

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Speaker 2: off a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So the facts are you did all that. So

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Speaker 3: why would you completely like go sideways in your thirties

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Speaker 3: and like lose the all the sort of the skills

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Speaker 3: and the know how and the work you put into that.

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Speaker 3: Why would that just go away?

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Speaker 2: It's so interesting because you're saying it to me, and

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Speaker 2: I can literally feel like irrational thoughts in my brain

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Speaker 2: not be able to answer that question. But I think

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Speaker 2: the thing I always come back to is this like

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Speaker 2: sense of fate. This like I think it's like a

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Speaker 2: huge impost syndrome thing that I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: us in our twenties have where it's like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: got all this just because I'm lucky, and luck runs out,

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Speaker 2: so you're putting it in some bigger things hands rather

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Speaker 2: than your own and like rather than think about your

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Speaker 2: own skills and your own effort and your own labor.

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Speaker 3: Right, So I'm saying I look at your life and

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Speaker 3: a little I know about it so far, and I don't.

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Speaker 3: I mean, my saying about luck is a wise man

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Speaker 3: makes his own luck. So I would assume that most

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Speaker 3: of what you have you've worked for a lot of that,

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Speaker 3: and there's probably some luck involved, but probably even more

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Speaker 3: sort of work or intentionality or care in cultivating that.

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Speaker 3: So I would assume for the facts, well you're going

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Speaker 3: to you're not going to know less about that in

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Speaker 3: your thirties. You would keep doing that. So that's kind

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Speaker 3: of shifting from Okay, my brain gets going on the fears.

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Speaker 3: But what if I focus on some facts and I

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Speaker 3: give myself credit for what is not what if, But

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Speaker 3: what is the other thing to do? Because sometimes people

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Speaker 3: are like, oh, I don't have any facts, I don't

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Speaker 3: know anything. You know, this is could go either way,

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Speaker 3: and so you think about the what else? So what

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Speaker 3: else could I tell myself? Besides everything is going to

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Speaker 3: go sideways, my life's gonna get worse. I mean, that's well,

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Speaker 3: that's one possibility. What's another possibility? What else could you

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Speaker 3: be saying?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because it's like it could stay the same,

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Speaker 2: in which case, speaking from experience, that would be great,

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Speaker 2: or it could get better. And I feel like that's

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Speaker 2: a really nice thought I.

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Speaker 3: Have, right, So just letting your brain kind of have

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Speaker 3: these play with these different possibilities of Okay, you've got

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Speaker 3: your what ifs, but you've also got your what is

400
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Speaker 3: and you've got your what else? None of that like

401
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Speaker 3: I know, I you know, this is not my first

402
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Speaker 3: rodeo talking to Twist.

403
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Speaker 2: On their way.

404
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Speaker 3: No, none of that gets rid of the what if.

405
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Speaker 3: But it does make your brain hold some other possibilities besides,

406
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Speaker 3: like I am sure my life is going to be awful,

407
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Speaker 3: and like we can't. You know, sometimes clients will say, well,

408
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Speaker 3: help me stop doing that. I want to stop doing that.

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Speaker 3: You will never stop doing that because evolutionarily, your brain

410
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Speaker 3: needs to go like, oh my gosh, what if I

411
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Speaker 3: mean it needs to do that. But I will say,

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Speaker 3: as you get older and you have a more grounded

413
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Speaker 3: sense of the what is it, does it But then

414
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Speaker 3: you're like, oh, whatever, it's fine, or I'll figure it out,

415
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Speaker 3: or I've figured this out five times before I can

416
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Speaker 3: figure it out another couple of times, like that actually

417
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Speaker 3: does happen. You have more what is.

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Speaker 2: I really like hearing that I honestly what you said.

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Speaker 2: Then the last point you made of you figure this

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Speaker 2: out a couple of like five or six or whatever

421
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Speaker 2: twelve times you've already you've done it before that it

422
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Speaker 2: just becomes like such a skill set rather than feeling that.

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Speaker 2: In our twenties, you know, so many of the big

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Speaker 2: problems of like oh my god, I didn't pay my taxes,

425
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Speaker 2: or like I don't know what I'm doing. I just

426
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Speaker 2: got fired, or somebody just broke up with me, or oh,

427
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Speaker 2: a friend of mine, like I'm feeling lonely. That's a

428
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Speaker 2: big one, Like I'm feeling lonely. I'm always going to

429
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Speaker 2: feel this way. It's like the first time that we

430
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 2: really truly experienced that, especially because of how many major

431
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: you know, you talked about adult development, and part of

432
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 2: that is like social context, right, you know, you shift

433
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 2: from a very structured schooling environment to being on your

434
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,880
Speaker 2: own and people moving everywhere and work kind of being

435
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 2: the center of your life. And I remember to include

436
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 2: like a personal story about this. I used to have

437
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 2: such a problem with loneliness when I was in my

438
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: early twenties, when I was younger, and anytime I felt lonely,

439
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, this feeling is never

440
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: going to go away. This is my life now. I'm

441
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 2: a lonely person. And it was only until probably a

442
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 2: few months ago and I was traveling and I was like,

443
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 2: oh my god, it happens every time I'm away from home.

444
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm a lonely person. This feeling's never going

445
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 2: to go away. That I went back and was like

446
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 2: looking through old journals of mine, being like, this is

447
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 2: a pretty routine experience for me at this point, Like

448
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 2: it's just like on a regular cycle. This is like

449
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: every six months, I'm having this feeling. Maybe I should

450
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: learn that actually it does go away. So I really

451
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 2: like that, what else? And then also what is like

452
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: I do have the skill kind of mentality.

453
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 3: Yes, and you know, I mean you said a lot

454
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 3: of really important things and they're one is what you

455
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 3: were talking about. There are just so many firsts in

456
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 3: your twenties. You don't have a lot of what is

457
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 3: or data points or you know, maybe you can draw

458
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 3: back on, well I got through this at you know,

459
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 3: in school or a camp or in sports or whatever.

460
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 3: But you know, there's so many firsts. I think people

461
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 3: feel like the first time they get laid off, you

462
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 3: know their lives are over. But you know after well,

463
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 3: here's a factoid for you. Your average tw something's gonna have

464
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 3: nine jobs by the age of thirty five. So by

465
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 3: the time you're on job, you know, three or four six,

466
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 3: you realize, okay, whatever, I'll get another job. I mean,

467
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 3: you know, that's just that's what will happen. Or after

468
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 3: you've had your heart broken three times, it still hurts

469
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 3: because that's how the attachment system works, but you know

470
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 3: you will survive it and you know, maybe even feel

471
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 3: better and maybe and meet someone who's better suited for you.

472
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 3: So you have more data points as you go along.

473
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 3: And that's just one thing that's really hard in your twenties.

474
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 3: It's part of the uncertainty is there aren't a lot

475
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 3: of data points to say, I see what this is.

476
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 3: I've gotten through it before, I'll get through it again.

477
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: But you're accruing those now. So that's sort of what's

478
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 3: happening with all these firsts and seconds and thirds as

479
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: your brain is learning Okay, I can do this.

480
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: I'm literally listening to what you were just saying, being like,

481
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: oh my god, yeah, that's checking a lot of boxes

482
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: in my brain, especially the heart break one as well. Love.

483
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 2: You just feel it so deeply. I'm sure. I don't know.

484
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: I'm not in my thirties or forties, but in your twenties,

485
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: I remember, like it's not that the breakups have gotten easier,

486
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: it's just that there is a sense of like that

487
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: that they will end. In a way, it's like, Okay,

488
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 2: you know I've done this before. I kind of have

489
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: like a toolkit almost of like this is how long

490
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 2: this is probably gonna last. These this is the first month,

491
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,479
Speaker 2: this is the second month, this is month six, like

492
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 2: this is this is a routine now. Whereas I think,

493
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: especially like when I was like twenty or twenty one,

494
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 2: like that was world ending to me.

495
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, of course it's been there are yeah.

496
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 2: Been there, done that.

497
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's I've been there, done that more

498
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 3: than once. But you know, I think many twenty somethings

499
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 3: don't know that breakups are the kind of leading precursor

500
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 3: to feeling depressed in your twenties. I mean, as would

501
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 3: make perfect sense or you know, like a big attachment loss,

502
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 3: and so people often feel quite depressed after a breakup.

503
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 3: And you know, one thing I work with my clients

504
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 3: on is that it does not mean that you're abnormal

505
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 3: or disordered or sick. It actually means your your heart

506
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: is working, your attachment system is working. If you really

507
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 3: cared about someone and really loved someone and maybe even

508
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: envisioned to future with them, you should be super sad

509
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: if it doesn't work out. And I don't expect that

510
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 3: to lift in two weeks. I would be kind of

511
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 3: worried if somebody was like whatever, easy come, easy go

512
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 3: after you know what felt like a significant relationship to them. So,

513
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 3: you know, some of the struggles that twenty somethings go through,

514
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 3: actually a lot of them anxiety at work or sadness

515
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 3: after a breakup. This is normal developmental struggle. That actually

516
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 3: shows that your brain and your heart are working properly.

517
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: They're not indications that there's something wrong with you. If

518
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 3: you're feeling stressed or anxious about work, or you're feeling

519
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 3: sad about a breakup, that's what I would expect and

520
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: hope in a lot of ways.

521
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: So actually, I want to focus on this a little

522
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: bit more because there's an example you give in the book,

523
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: and I'm am I going to spoil it. I don't know,

524
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: maybe it's up to you for it, go for it.

525
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: And I've got her name or their name, but because

526
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,479
Speaker 2: of a breakup, she was like, oh, I have an

527
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 2: insecure attachment style. I have a disorganized attachment style. Now,

528
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: that is something that I see all the time. And

529
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's like sixty five seventy percent

530
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 2: of us have a secure attachment style. But by the

531
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: way that we are diagnosing ourselves using TikTok videos and

532
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: social media, you would think that all of us are

533
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: like anxious avoiding it, right, anxious ambivalentus.

534
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: Right.

535
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: We talk about that a little bit more because it's

536
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: one of my little secret like pet Peeves, when it

537
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: comes to like online psychology, that.

538
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: I mean, other people diagnosing themselves with that.

539
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, people late, it's.

540
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 3: It's having a moment.

541
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: Yes.

542
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 3: I'll have people come in new clients and they'll say,

543
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: you know, I'm getting to know them, well, I have

544
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 3: an insecure attachment style. I'm like, oh, I don't know,

545
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 3: not so sure. So so there's a big difference between

546
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 3: having an anxious attachment style and just feeling anxious, or

547
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: having a bit insecure attachment style and just feeling insecure.

548
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: And I would say that the vast majority of twenty

549
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 3: somethings that I work with there, they don't have an

550
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: insecure attachment style. They're they're in a state of insecurity.

551
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: So an attachment style is something that you're saying, this

552
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 3: is diagnostic and character logical and true of me across

553
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 3: all situations, all relationships, all aspects of my life, all

554
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: ages and stages. No, like, very few twenty somethings of

555
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: mine would say, yeah, I don't. I'm not secure with friends,

556
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 3: I'm not secure with my family. I'm not secure with anybody,

557
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 3: you know, partners, boyfriends, girlfriends. I mean, that's when you

558
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: have an insecure attachment style. And if it's been that way,

559
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: consistently across time and across situations. Most twenty somethings for

560
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 3: reasons we've already gotten into because of all the uncertainty.

561
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 3: They're just feeling insecure. You know, they don't know who

562
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: their friends are, they don't know if somebody likes them,

563
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 3: they don't know if this person wants to go out

564
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 3: with them, they don't know if this new relationship is

565
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: going to work or not. That's just insecurity. That's uncertainty.

566
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 3: That is not having an insecure attachment style. And I

567
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: don't love for twenty somethings to you know, diagnose themselves,

568
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 3: not just because they're often not accurate, but they can

569
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 3: kind of wrap their identities around the sense of abnormality. See,

570
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: I have an insecure attachment style, and if only I

571
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: had a secure attachment style, maybe this relationship with work

572
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 3: or someone would want to be with me. And that's

573
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: usually not okay. So it's just normal to feel nervous

574
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: and worried and anxious about whether a new relationship is

575
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: going to last, or about you know, whether someone's going

576
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 3: to text you back. That's normal. That's not like an

577
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 3: abnormal attachment style.

578
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like hearing that. Actually because I feel

579
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: like there's definitely been points in my life right I've

580
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: thought that that was who I was, And I really

581
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: understand what you mean whereby we get really invested in

582
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: these things being who we are, that anything that contradicts

583
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: that that is us we deny and we suppress, when

584
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 2: actually it might be like the gateway too much more

585
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: open and better life. So one of the other big

586
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: things about our twenties, and it's about feeling behind, but

587
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: it's also about dealing with uncertainty, is like, how do

588
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: I know that I'm making the right decisions. I feel

589
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: like we have so many options of career pathways and

590
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: people we could date, and cities we could live in.

591
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: Something you talk about in the first book, though, that

592
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: I think really applies here is this concept of sliding

593
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: versus deciding. Can you talk us through that a little

594
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: bit more?

595
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, the sliding versus deciding is a concept. I mean,

596
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: I've popularized it putting it in my book, but it's

597
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 3: research by Scott Stanley really about living together, but it

598
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 3: could apply to anything. But it's this sense of like,

599
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 3: do we sort of slide into relationships because it happens,

600
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 3: it's convenient, it's gradual. We didn't really think about it,

601
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 3: or do we really actively decide this is the right

602
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 3: person for me, I want to make this commitment, or

603
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: this is the right job. I'm going to stay here

604
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: another year for these very good reasons. And I think

605
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 3: a lot of times, we know, what with relationships, whether

606
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 3: you're living with someone or even at work, people can

607
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 3: kind of slide into sticking around in something because they're

608
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 3: already there. Well, it's just easier to stay another year

609
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 3: than to imagine starting over again, So I'll just do

610
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 3: another year, And so we can sort of slide into

611
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: living with people, being in relationships with people longer than

612
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: maybe we should be, staying in jobs longer than maybe

613
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: it's really serving us, because it's the sort of the

614
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 3: easier path. It's just something we can slide into rather

615
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: than really saying this is you know, given all choices,

616
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: this would be the best one for me.

617
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: So I guess that's leads to my next question is

618
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: how do we know which one is the best one

619
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: for us?

620
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 3: Because I feel, well, that is a good question. I

621
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 3: actually think sometimes people slide because they don't want to

622
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 3: face the fact that that can't totally be answered. So

623
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 3: in my In my book coming Out you Know any Minute,

624
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 3: the twenty something Treatment, I talk about what are called

625
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: large world problems and large world problems or problems where

626
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 3: all the options and the consequences and the outcomes can't

627
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 3: be modeled. So like if you know, small world problem

628
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 3: is you throw dice and you can, you know, bet

629
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: on the chances of getting a three. You know how

630
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 3: likely that is, you know, to get it, not get it.

631
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 3: You can even bet some amount to win or lose.

632
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 3: Those are small world problems. Large world problems are choosing

633
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: a city, or a partner or a roommate, or a

634
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: college or a job, or how many kids to have.

635
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 3: I mean, it's all those problems where you can't model

636
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: all the options, you can't know all the consequences, so

637
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 3: you really you're making a decision amidst uncertainty, not amidst

638
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 3: you know, known factors. So you know, so many people

639
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 3: come to me because they want to know is it

640
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: right to stay with this person or to break up?

641
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 3: Or should I take this job or should I take

642
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 3: that job? And there is no I mean, we could

643
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 3: talk it to death. You can try to, you know,

644
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 3: do an algorithm. You could go see a fortune teller

645
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 3: and get your cards read and you know, but nobody,

646
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: no one can hack that for you. That it's ultimately

647
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 3: really that's what truly a decision is of Okay, I

648
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 3: don't know, I'll never know which one is right or best,

649
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 3: So there's not like a right decision. There's just my decision.

650
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 3: So we kind of try to, you know, make the

651
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: most thoughtful, intentional choice that we can. And then I

652
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: think you reassess, you know, a year into the job

653
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 3: or a year into the relationship, and do a real

654
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 3: gut check of like, well, how did that choice pan

655
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: out for me so far? Am I happy? More happy

656
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 3: than unhappy? What should I be? You know, kind of

657
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 3: paying attention to and then you decide, well do I

658
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: sign up for another year of this or do I not?

659
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: That's really interestingly, you do a gut check, how do

660
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: you I like some of those questions you said, like

661
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: am I happy? Uh? Then I would be without this person,

662
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 2: without this job. What are some of the other ways

663
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: that we can maybe sense dissatisfactional sense that there might

664
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: there might be time to look for something that's better

665
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 2: for us?

666
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. I often ask clients is there something that

667
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 3: you're doing that you hope you're not doing in five years,

668
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 3: or is there something about this relationship that you hope

669
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: is not the way it is in five years. And

670
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 3: if they say yes, then it's like, okay, well then

671
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 3: why are we doing it now? How long are we

672
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 3: going to do this now? That usually if people look

673
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 3: out five years, like oh yeah, I definitely don't want

674
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 3: to be in this dead in relationship in five years. Okay,

675
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 3: well why are we here now? And how much longer

676
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 3: are we going to hang out? Or the same goes

677
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 3: for the job, or gosh, I hope my boyfriend and

678
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 3: I aren't still having conflict about cooking or whatever in

679
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 3: five years, Well, then let's fix it this here.

680
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: That's I think about that a lot. I will say

681
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: I'm in a great relationship. There's no I'm I've done

682
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: the questions and they've never they've always turned. But I do.

683
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: In previous relationships, I remember being like, I want to

684
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: break up with this person, but I don't, but being like,

685
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: let me just wait six months because I was like

686
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: delaying the pain. I was delaying the inedible. And then

687
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 2: I had a friend say to me and she was like, well,

688
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 2: wouldn't you rather be six months into it in six

689
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: months time rather than starting in six months time.

690
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 3: And she was like, what good for her?

691
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was like, oh wow, Like you're so she's

692
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: like the time is going to pass anyways, Like you're

693
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: going to get to the point, Like she's like, you're

694
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: going to have to break up with this person. It's

695
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: just whether you start the process now and then in

696
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 2: six months time give me like, oh, thank gosh, I've

697
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: done that already, or whether you wait and you delay it.

698
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 2: And it's like it's emotional procrastination where you understand, Yeah,

699
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 2: it's like you understand that there's going to be a

700
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: lot of fallout emotionally and mentally from a big decision,

701
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: So why not just wait? Why not just why not

702
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 2: just make that a future you problem? And you don't

703
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 2: realize that that future you is going to be there

704
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: pretty quick.

705
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:15,879
Speaker 3: Like.

706
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, honestly. And that's like and I feel like it's

707
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 2: interesting because I said this to some I always say

708
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: this on the show, like you can reverse one hundred percent,

709
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: Like the only decisions you can't reverse the ones that

710
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: you didn't make. So I think, you know, it's like, oh,

711
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: I guess having children, you can't really reverse that decision.

712
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 3: But well you can always adopt.

713
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's true. But it's like, especially when it

714
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 2: comes to career risks and career risks and wanting to

715
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: move to a new place, wanting to travel, you know,

716
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: there is so much regret in in action, probably more

717
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: regret then taking action because at least again we're going

718
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: to return to what you were saying before, Like when

719
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 2: you actually do something about a desire or an urge

720
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 2: you have, you're not faced with the what if being

721
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 2: what if I'd done that righting right?

722
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 3: And you learn, you learn something. But you know, I

723
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 3: think sometimes this isn't exactly what you're talking about. But

724
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 3: oftentimes twenty somethings will delay decisions so that they you know,

725
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 3: sort of like keep all their options open so they

726
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 3: don't make a decision, so nothing is like it's like

727
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 3: they're they think they're stopping time. I mean, they're not

728
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 3: stopping time. And not making decisions is a decision. So

729
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 3: you're deciding, you know, not to break up with that partner,

730
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 3: you know, you were sort of not making a decision

731
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 3: on it. That's a decision. You were deciding to sink

732
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: another six months into a relationship that you were sort

733
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 3: of done with Yeah, and your friend was right to say, like, shoot,

734
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 3: you could be six months through the breakup at this point, so.

735
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 2: Definitely that's good. And I did stay for another six

736
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: months there I probably should have listened to but you know, well,

737
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 2: we absolutely But I like that idea of like you

738
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 2: feel like you're buying yourself time, but like the time

739
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: is still pausing, right, You're just.

740
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 3: It's still passing. I mean, I think the thing with

741
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 3: it's what's so different about being an adult versus sort

742
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 3: of being in school is you know, there's no syllabus,

743
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: there's no I mean, this gets back to am I behind.

744
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 3: There's no syllabus, there's no schedule that you have to meet.

745
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 3: The grading system is whatever you decide it is depends

746
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 3: on your value system and what you're trying to achieve,

747
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 3: not what other people are saying you should do or

748
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 3: what the person sitting next to you is doing. And

749
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 3: you know that means there aren't any right or wrong answers.

750
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 3: There are just your answers, which seems kind of like

751
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 3: an annoying non answer, but it's actually really liberating when

752
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 3: you when you really lean into that of that's you know,

753
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 3: I don't have to worry about whether I'm doing it

754
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 3: right or wrong, or on time or ahead or behind whatever.

755
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: None of that really exists. It's it's just it's your life,

756
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 3: your choices, and you're going to make most of these

757
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 3: choices more than once. And I mean even within one

758
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 3: relationship that you know may last your whole life. Every

759
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 3: day you're choosing how's that relationship going to go today?

760
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 3: Or what am I going to work on or what's

761
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 3: what conversation am I going to have with my partner

762
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 3: to make it better. That we're constantly able to sort

763
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 3: of improve the choices that we make.

764
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: I like that as well. It's like not just a

765
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: it's not just one decision, it's an active choice like

766
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 2: throughout your life to be there, right to stay there,

767
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 2: whether that's a relationship with job, a city. So I've

768
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 2: got one final question for.

769
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: You, Okay, all right, I'm ready.

770
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know that's very anticlimacticve of me, although

771
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 2: I do feel like you have a really good answer

772
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: to this. What do you think of some expectations that

773
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: we should like go of in our twenties that would

774
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: make us happier?

775
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 3: You know, I feel like you've done a really good

776
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 3: job of focusing on that today. I mean, I feel

777
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 3: like the biggest expectation that people need to let go

778
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 3: of is that their twenties are going to be the

779
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 3: best years of their lives. And we talked about this,

780
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: but they're probably not going to be, and that's really

781
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 3: really good news. That's a huge bummer if the best

782
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 3: years of your lives or your twenties and then the

783
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 3: rest of your life is all downhill. You don't want that,

784
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 3: it's not probably going to happen, but you know, kind

785
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: of feeling like everything's supposed to be amazing in your

786
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 3: twenties is really sort of a recipe for heartbreak because

787
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 3: it's a very challenging time. So I would say, bad

788
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 3: expectation that everything's going to be great and or you're

789
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 3: going to have everything figured out by thirty. I talk

790
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 3: a lot, really in both books about there's this cool

791
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 3: study I won't get in the weeds about at least

792
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 3: it says eighty It says eighty percent of life's most

793
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 3: defining moments take place by age thirty five. That is true. However,

794
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 3: you know most of those defining moments are you know,

795
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 3: happened in fits and starts, so I actually posted something

796
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 3: on my Instagram the other day. It was a picture

797
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 3: of me at thirty five, pregnant with my first child

798
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 3: and getting my PhD, my diploma, and that was thirty five,

799
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 3: and I was joking like, oo if I got these

800
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 3: two in right under the wire. But when you follow

801
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 3: them backwards, both of those projects started earlier. You know,

802
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 3: I started studying to get into grad school, you know,

803
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 3: in the middle of my twenties. I bumped into my

804
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 3: partner for the first time in my mid twenties, and

805
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 3: then met them again in my late twenties, and then

806
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 3: we got married after that. So all so, you know,

807
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 3: you don't really know like all these defining moments. They're

808
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: probably going to happen by the time you're thirty five,

809
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 3: and some of them may be happening in small pieces now.

810
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 3: You just don't know it. So the idea that everything's

811
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 3: going to be done by thirty is ridiculous. Don't stress,

812
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 3: But you might have started most of these things. You

813
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 3: just don't get to see the fruits of your labor

814
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 3: quite yet.

815
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: Wow. I really like that outlook, and it just makes

816
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: things feel like very exciting and surprising.

817
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, life is exciting and surprising and want you want.

818
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I want your twenties to be awesome, but

819
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 3: I also want your thirties and forties and fifties to

820
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 3: be awesome. And I think if you lay the groundwork

821
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: for that, then life really does get better. I mean,

822
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 3: why would it not.

823
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 2: What a positive way to finish. Thank you so much

824
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 2: for this little little pleasure. Now I want to quickly say,

825
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 2: you have just joined Instagram and everything I did. Yeah,

826
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: and you've done your first little like you've dipped your

827
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 2: toes into social media.

828
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 3: I have. I have.

829
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 1: Yeah.

830
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 3: That's it's funny because I was off social media. I mean,

831
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 3: to be an author, to be sort of out there,

832
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 3: I was off social media more than you would expect.

833
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 3: I didn't have an Instagram. I had a very inactive

834
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 3: Twitter account. That was it. Whatever. I was just sort

835
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: of off of it. And I think part of it

836
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 3: was I was focused on writing books. You know, I

837
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 3: have clients, and you know, I don't know how you feel,

838
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 3: but I think a lot of clients maybe don't want

839
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 3: to bump into their therapist on social media.

840
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: I know. But the same advice that gave you like

841
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: to everyone right right.

842
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 3: So for me, it was more of you know, I'm

843
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 3: gonna kind of you know, lie low and write books

844
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 3: and try to reach people that way, which is super

845
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 3: important to me because you know, and good therapy is

846
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 3: not accessible and affordable not only to everybody, but really

847
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 3: not to most people. So part of writing books is

848
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 3: about getting that out there. But anyway, as social media

849
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 3: has evolved, and as I have been convinced that hello,

850
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 3: that is where people get their education and their information

851
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 3: and their news now, then if I want to help people,

852
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 3: that's where I need to be. Also that I know

853
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 3: y'all don't want to see me dance or put on makeup.

854
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: Brain that well, actually.

855
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 3: No, that's not true. But you know now that it

856
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 3: feels like obviously this is where a lot of people

857
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 3: are getting, you know, good information, or they could be

858
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: getting better information, and so I wanted to be a

859
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 3: part of that of the better information.

860
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 2: I really really like that because I feel like you

861
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 2: have a lot to contribute. There's lots of misinformation out there,

862
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 2: and it's nice to have people online who have degrees

863
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 2: have like have done research on this stuff to really

864
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: set the fact straight. So, well, where can people follow you?

865
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 2: What's your Instagram name?

866
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 3: Well, I'm Brand News to please come out and full

867
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 3: force because I have like two followers, but I'm at

868
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 3: doctor meg Jay on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, pretty much anywhere

869
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 3: where people would be. I'm doctor meg Jay is the

870
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 3: handle and I've just recently joined. So there's, you know,

871
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 3: some stuff starting to put some videos up. But the idea,

872
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 3: especially with the twenty something treatment coming out, is to

873
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 3: get the content out because, like you said, there's a

874
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 3: lot of misinformation and I would love to you know,

875
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 3: kind of get it on that conversation and help people out.

876
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Well, I'm super excited and I'm super

877
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: excited for people to get their hands on your book.

878
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 2: I'm going to leave a preyo to link in the

879
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: description of this episode and a link to The Defining Decade.

880
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: If you haven't read that book and you are a

881
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 2: fan of this podcast, what are you doing? They go,

882
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: so had and.

883
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 3: Yell right exactly.

884
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 2: It's funny. I hadn't even read it before I started

885
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: the podcast, and then I started the show and I

886
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 2: was like, oh my gosh, like this is so aligned,

887
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: So I will yeah, I will leave a link to

888
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: both of those. As always, if you enjoyed this episode,

889
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 2: please feel free to leave a five star review on

890
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,479
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now. Share

891
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 2: it with a friend if you think that they would

892
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 2: enjoy this they would get something out of this conversation.

893
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: I definitely did. And if you have an episode suggestion,

894
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 2: please feel free to send it to me at that

895
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: Psychology podcast and you could follow me at Gemma Spake

896
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 2: on Instagram for some more behind the scenes content. We

897
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 2: will be back next week with another episode. Until then,

898
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: stay safe and we will see you soon.