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Speaker 1: Welcome to two percent. I'm your host, Michael Easter. Today

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about these science backed benefits

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Speaker 1: of art, whether that is creating it yourself, experiencing it,

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Speaker 1: or even just taking an artistic mindset to whatever you do. First,

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Speaker 1: we're going to speak to Daisy Fancourt. She's the world's

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Speaker 1: foremost researcher studying the benefits of art. She also wrote

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Speaker 1: a book called Art Cure. Then we're going to bring

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Speaker 1: on Jesse Albrick. He's one of my favorite artists. He

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Speaker 1: does ceramic work that is just mind blowing, beautiful, amazing.

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Speaker 1: He's also a veteran of the Iraq War, so he's

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Speaker 1: going to tell us his story. He's going to talk

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Speaker 1: to us about how the war influences work and why

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Speaker 1: creativity can be an outlet not only for veterans, with

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Speaker 1: everyone else. I'll take a quick break and we'll start

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Speaker 1: with Daisy. Well, Daisy Fancourt, thank you for coming on

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Speaker 1: two percent.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here's where I want to start. John Adams said

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Speaker 1: I must study politics and war that my sons may

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Speaker 1: have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought

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Speaker 1: to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their

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Speaker 1: children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statutary,

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Speaker 1: tapestry and porcelain, so Adams. In this quote, he seems

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Speaker 1: to be suggesting that art is the highest pursuit. Why

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Speaker 1: is art so important for our lives and our well being?

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Speaker 3: Arts engagement is a fundamental human behavior that's arguably one

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Speaker 3: of the pinnacles of our evolution as apecies. And we

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Speaker 3: see very clearly the impact that the arts have, whether

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Speaker 3: it's on us as individuals, on our to societies, ways

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Speaker 3: of challenging and developing our whole way of thinking as humans.

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Speaker 3: But it's funny hearing that, because I think many people

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Speaker 3: would really argue or with we're used in society to

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Speaker 3: thinking about the reverse that actually the arts courses are

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Speaker 3: the ones that are very much not the necessary, the

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Speaker 3: ones that can be cut because we should be focusing

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Speaker 3: all of our attention onto those other subjects instead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned evolution, So what is the history of

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Speaker 1: they art? How long has art been around in humanity?

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Speaker 2: It's a hard thing to figure out.

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Speaker 3: So actually some of the earliest tangible evidence of the

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Speaker 3: art comes from sort of forty odd thousand years ago,

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Speaker 3: where we've got things like bones, statues, bone flutes, cave paintings,

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Speaker 3: sort of rhythmic heal patterns that suggest dance in caves.

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Speaker 3: But actually there is some even earlier examples. We think

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Speaker 3: of the arts actually emerging as a way of supporting

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Speaker 3: social bonding, with some even arguing that singing evolved as

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Speaker 3: a way of helping us to connect before language.

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Speaker 2: Even came into being.

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Speaker 3: And if that's so, then the arts and some form

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Speaker 3: may have been with us for a couple of hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand years and actually playing a really important role in

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Speaker 3: our entire survival from the beginning that they emerged.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing because I think when people think of the

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Speaker 1: past and our hunter gatherer ancestors, they assume it was

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Speaker 1: all just drudgery. All you do is walk around looking

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Speaker 1: for food, hunting, and you just hope to survive. But

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Speaker 1: it turns out people were spending time on I think

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Speaker 1: what a lot of us today would consider leisure and

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Speaker 1: this sort of higher thing we can do with our

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Speaker 1: free time.

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Speaker 3: But what's interesting here is that when they were engaging

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Speaker 3: in arts, it seems to have had a purpose to it.

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Speaker 3: It was about social bonding or connection or some of

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Speaker 3: those early examples of the art, like the bone statues,

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Speaker 3: were of female figures that people think may have been

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Speaker 3: part of fertility rituals.

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Speaker 2: So it suggests that.

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Speaker 3: Arts were actually seen as a fundamental part of everyday

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Speaker 3: life rather than just to kind of flippant nice thing

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Speaker 3: to have. They were a necessity rather than luxury.

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Speaker 1: I love it all right, coach. So to set the stage,

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Speaker 1: you did a one hundred and forty six page report

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Speaker 1: for the World Health Organization reviewed all the research on

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Speaker 1: how art improves health and well being. You also have

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Speaker 1: a book called Archer How Art Saves Lives, So big

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Speaker 1: picture to set the stage, how does art save lives?

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Speaker 3: Arts engagement can have so many effects on our health.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that it can do is help

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Speaker 3: to enhance our well being, giving us a sense of

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Speaker 3: meaning and purpose in our lives, which is arguably what

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Speaker 3: most people are looking for in a good life. But

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Speaker 3: it can also actually impact every system in our body,

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Speaker 3: our brains, our immune system, our cardiovascular system, and actually

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Speaker 3: fundamentally impact our risk of developing illness from mental health

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Speaker 3: problems to physical illness. And if we do develop health challenges,

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Speaker 3: It can also play a really important role in the

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Speaker 3: management and even treatments of psychological and physical symptoms.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the mechanism is for mental health

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Speaker 1: benefits and what are those seemed to be You mentioned

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Speaker 1: sort of lightly on them, but what are some of

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Speaker 1: the specific benefits we find and what's happening there.

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Speaker 3: Well from day to day engagement in the arts. We

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Speaker 3: actually see that if people are regularly engaged, they have

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Speaker 3: about half the risk of developing depression over the next

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Speaker 3: ten years of their lives, and if they already.

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Speaker 2: Have symptoms of depression.

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Speaker 3: For example, ARTS engagement an hour a week for twelve

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Speaker 3: weeks tends to reduce symptoms by about thirty to forty

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Speaker 3: percent in people. These are the same effect sizes that

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Speaker 3: we actually see for other kinds of interventions like psychological

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Speaker 3: therapies and medication, and the effects to be quite long

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Speaker 3: lasting even after the end of finishing sort of three

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Speaker 3: months of regular ARTS engagements. And part of the reason

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Speaker 3: for it is that ARTS engagement helps to alter our moods.

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Speaker 3: It can help us to feel happier when we engage,

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Speaker 3: releasing neurotransmitters like dopamine that are involved in pleasure. It

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Speaker 3: can also reduce our stress response systems, so lowering our

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Speaker 3: heart rate, our blood pressure, stress hormones like cortisol. It

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Speaker 3: can also affect inflammation in our immune system, which is

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Speaker 3: actually very much linked in with depressive feelings, so our

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Speaker 3: mood has these correlates within our immune system. When we

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Speaker 3: can see arts engagement influencing both our feelings of moods

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Speaker 3: and also those biological markers, and it can also help

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Speaker 3: to give us a sense of community and a purpose

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Speaker 3: and feel good about ourselves to mastery within it as well,

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Speaker 3: so it can target multiple aspects of our well being.

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Speaker 1: And then physically, what are some of the benefits we'll

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Speaker 1: see there.

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Speaker 3: Physically, if people engage regularly in the arts, we can

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Speaker 3: see affecting different organ systems, like when we sing, for example,

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Speaker 3: that actually helps to improve the strength of respiratory muscles.

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Speaker 3: If we're regularly engaged in things like dance that have

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Speaker 3: got that physical components, we see improvements in cardiovascular outcomes

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Speaker 3: from blood pressure, cholesterol, triglycerides, which are kind of fatty

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Speaker 3: acids fatty fats.

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Speaker 2: In our blood.

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Speaker 3: We also see that regular engagement have muscular scaltal benefits.

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Speaker 3: It's literally getting us out and about and keeping us

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Speaker 3: physically active, so that has a lot of benefits as

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Speaker 3: we get older.

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Speaker 2: In particular, so people who.

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Speaker 3: Engage regularly in the art are less likely to become

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Speaker 3: frail or to develop age related signs of decline.

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Speaker 2: We also see.

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Speaker 3: Brain effects, so engaging in the art involves so many

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Speaker 3: regions of our brain. It really is a whole brain

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Speaker 3: workout which helps to strengthen connections between different regions of

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Speaker 3: the brain. And in fact we see that people who

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Speaker 3: are regularly engaged in the arts are actually younger biologically

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Speaker 3: and neurologically.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and then Daisy

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Speaker 1: will explain to physical health benefits that can come from

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Speaker 1: art that don't involved movement like painting. Is there do

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Speaker 1: you get physical benefits from arts that don't have a

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Speaker 1: movement component like do we see? I don't know, for example,

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Speaker 1: benefits and heart health from people who are painting or

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Speaker 1: creating music or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: You do often through different pathways.

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Speaker 3: So obviously if you're dancing, it is a form of

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Speaker 3: aerobic exercise, so it's in a way it's not surprising

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Speaker 3: you see health physical health benefits, although interestingly, a lot

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Speaker 3: of the trials that compare dance to other aerobic exercise

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Speaker 3: actually see even greater improvements in many health outcomes from

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Speaker 3: the dance because it's not only the physical, it's also

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Speaker 3: bringing in the social and also the psychological benefits of

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Speaker 3: the creativity and the imagination that's involved in those mood

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Speaker 3: benefits too. But we do see benefits from other kinds

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Speaker 3: of non active arts as well. So in fact, my

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Speaker 3: team and I have just finished a study where we've

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Speaker 3: looked at how arts engagement affects patterns of gene expression,

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Speaker 3: and it actually looks at particular patterns that we call

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Speaker 3: epigenetic clocks, which are an indication of where the people

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Speaker 3: aging biologically faster or slower than their chronological age. And

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Speaker 3: we see that even the things that are the more

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Speaker 3: passive arts engagement, like sitting and reading regularly for pleasure,

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Speaker 3: or doing crafts or being involved in other arts groups,

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Speaker 3: these are all linked in with a lower epigenetic age,

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Speaker 3: the slower biological aging. And we think this is because

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Speaker 3: arts engagement has such diverse psychological benefits for things like

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Speaker 3: stress that we know really influence our physical health as well.

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Speaker 1: So sort of in totality, I would say, you know,

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Speaker 1: when people think of how do I improve my health?

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Speaker 1: They're often going, Okay, well I need to eat better,

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Speaker 1: probably should sleep better, I should probably exercise it. But

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Speaker 1: you know, go to the gym and do my three

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Speaker 1: sets of ten raps or whatever. But you argue that

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Speaker 1: the arts are a fifth pillar of health. They're just

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Speaker 1: as important of as all of these other things. How

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Speaker 1: string do you think the research on that?

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Speaker 4: Is?

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Speaker 2: The research is.

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Speaker 3: Really accumulating so rapidly now. I think people are often

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Speaker 3: surprise when they hear it's now tens of thousands of

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Speaker 3: scientific studies on the health benefits of the arts, and

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Speaker 3: actually a lot of these are increasingly pitting the arts

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Speaker 3: against other health behaviors that we're much more familiar with. So,

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Speaker 3: for example, the study I just mentioned on epigenetic aging,

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Speaker 3: we actually directly compared arts for epigenetic aging and physical activity.

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Speaker 2: They actually had.

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Speaker 3: The same sized effect on our raid of epigenetic aging,

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Speaker 3: which I think is just one example of so many

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Speaker 3: studies now that are showing these parallel effect sizes between

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Speaker 3: arts and other health behaviors, really highlighting that we need

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Speaker 3: to take the arts more seriously.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And so from my perspective, sort of going into

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Speaker 1: this and I thought there would be some benefits. I

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Speaker 1: was like, yeah, there's probably some research search on this,

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Speaker 1: and then I came across your massive WHL report and

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Speaker 1: it was kind of one of those your jaw drops

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Speaker 1: and goes, oh my god. I didn't realize there was

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Speaker 1: this much there there. I mean, it's just fascinating.

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Speaker 2: It's really exciting.

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Speaker 3: And actually, if you look at other health behaviors, though,

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Speaker 3: it's been a similar process of them not being taken

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Speaker 3: seriously at first, Like if you look back in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighties, there were still these debates about is exercise

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Speaker 3: good for our health, which.

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Speaker 2: Is such a hilarious concept to consider now.

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Speaker 3: And another example I talk about in my book as

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Speaker 3: well is seat beltsing cars. Like if you look back

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Speaker 3: before the nineteen nineties, nobody wore a seat belting cars.

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Speaker 3: People thought it was a ridiculous concept, and it took years,

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Speaker 3: decades of scientific research about the impact it has for

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Speaker 3: our health and survival and lobbying and like really public

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Speaker 3: awareness building before suddenly there was this huge sea change

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Speaker 3: in awareness and also in people's behaviors. And I think

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Speaker 3: that we're getting to that similar seatbelt moment or tipping

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Speaker 3: point with art engagement. People are actually increasingly becoming aware

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Speaker 3: of this evidence. It's why I've written this book to

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Speaker 3: really try and galvanize that public awareness. And I'm hoping

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Speaker 3: that we'll have that similar tipping point where suddenly, in

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Speaker 3: a few years everybody will be like, well, of course

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Speaker 3: art is good for our health and.

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Speaker 5: We should be doing it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I love that question. Do you have to produce art

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Speaker 1: or make art yourself or can you just consume it

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Speaker 1: and get a lot of the benefits we're talking about here.

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Speaker 3: So both have benefits for us, and I'd say you

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Speaker 3: can think about it a little bit like thinking about

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Speaker 3: ingredients in a meal, because when we engage in different

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Speaker 3: arts activities, they all have different ingredients. Like some are

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Speaker 3: more social, some are involve more different sensory stimulations. Some

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Speaker 3: are involving our own creativity and imagination.

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Speaker 2: Some are more physical. So naturally, the things where we are.

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Speaker 3: Producing and having to really get involved ourselves, those can

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Speaker 3: bring additional benefits of their own. They might support our

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Speaker 3: feelings of mastery or self esteem if we're creating things ourselves.

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Speaker 3: But actually they're more sort of so called receptive things

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Speaker 3: like reading books or watching films or going to the theater.

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Speaker 3: These also have lots of benefits, particularly because they tend

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Speaker 3: to expose us to lots of new emotions, new storylines

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Speaker 3: that can challenge our way of thinking. So they might

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Speaker 3: influence us in different ways, but often we actually see

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Speaker 3: quite similar health outcomes, particularly for outcomes that are quite

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Speaker 3: broad like mental health.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of mental health, there's part of your report

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Speaker 1: and your work is looked at behavioral health, especially with

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Speaker 1: kids and teens and arts.

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Speaker 4: What have you found there.

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Speaker 3: Interestingly, there's a lot of research now growing about the

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Speaker 3: benefits the arts engagement has for supporting children in developing

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Speaker 3: their own behaviors.

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Speaker 2: So we see that young people who are.

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Speaker 3: Regularly engaged in the arts actually have better levels of

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Speaker 3: self control and self esteem, and they're actually less likely

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Speaker 3: to develop behavioral problems and also to get involved in

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Speaker 3: antisocial or criminalized behaviors. That some of this is probably

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Speaker 3: displacement effects. You know, if you're spending your time doing arts,

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Speaker 3: you might not have as much time to be sort

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Speaker 3: of staying out on the streets or getting into trouble

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Speaker 3: for example. But actually the fact that the artists do

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Speaker 3: nurture those core skills like empathy and helping to put

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Speaker 3: ourselves in other people's shoes, which is known as theory

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Speaker 3: of minds. Those are very very important psychological skills that

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Speaker 3: we build up through and interestingly, when we're looking at narrative,

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Speaker 3: at things that are involving stories, they're particularly important for

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Speaker 3: young people because it means that they are feeding their

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Speaker 3: brains with different scenarios, different emotions, and they're having to

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Speaker 3: practice how to manage those emotions, but also how to

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Speaker 3: imagine how they would respond to all of those different scenarios.

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Speaker 3: And that's what young people's brains are constantly doing, trying

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Speaker 3: to build up their repertswire of how they can respond

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Speaker 3: to really complex situations and be resilient in them as well.

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Speaker 2: And by giving us.

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Speaker 3: All of those different exposures through art, we're actually building

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Speaker 3: what's called the predictive coding abilities of young people's brains.

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Speaker 1: So what do you tell parents? What's the takeaway for parents?

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Speaker 1: Does it just get your kids involved in any art

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Speaker 1: at all, or what's the sort of path in the

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Speaker 1: basket There is there a specific dose the research findes,

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Speaker 1: or what does that look like?

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Speaker 3: So I think in young children the sort of main

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Speaker 3: message and I have young kids myself, so I've definitely

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Speaker 3: been learning this on a fly, But the main message

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Speaker 3: is just to embrace creativity across day to day whenever

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Speaker 3: you can. So kids are so naturally good at this,

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Speaker 3: like they're constantly singing or dancing, or acting out bits

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Speaker 3: of stories or wanting to read and doing crafts, and

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Speaker 3: I think really embracing those, even if they're just those

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Speaker 3: micro moments that get scattered across the day, because that's

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Speaker 3: so important for developing their creativity and giving them those

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Speaker 3: exposure to emotions.

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Speaker 2: And to storylines.

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Speaker 3: As young people get older, I think there are new

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Speaker 3: opportunities that can be added in, like giving them new

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Speaker 3: novel art experiences. So I love taking my kids to

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Speaker 3: watch street musicians buskers in our town because it's such

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Speaker 3: an easy way to be exposed to music. There's no

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Speaker 3: pressure to sit down for an hour or two. You

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Speaker 3: can just have those micro moments. But it's giving them

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Speaker 3: those fresh perspectives and starting to go to other shows

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Speaker 3: or gigs or festivals that can give them that exposure

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Speaker 3: is exciting. And if they can develop a creative hobby

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Speaker 3: that they have that chance to work at and build

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Speaker 3: that sense of self esteem and mastery, that can be

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Speaker 3: really really important in building a strong sense of self

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Speaker 3: and confidence in a strong community as well as they're

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Speaker 3: getting older.

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Speaker 1: So social media takes a lot of heat around kids

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Speaker 1: and mental health. At the same time, I think you

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Speaker 1: could argue that social media is a creative outlet. It

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Speaker 1: can be something where you're creating content that took creativity

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Speaker 1: and it's interesting and it's almost a form of art.

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Speaker 1: So what are your thoughts on that, How do you

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Speaker 1: see the balance and so a big question.

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Speaker 2: It's true.

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Speaker 3: I think social media is sometimes sort of demonized as

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Speaker 3: being a bad thing, but you're right that there can

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Speaker 3: be a creative content component here and they can also

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Speaker 3: I've increasingly seen this trend amongst young people which is

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Speaker 3: doing what's called granny hobbies, so things like textiles, approache,

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Speaker 3: these kinds of things, which is incredibly rude name for them,

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Speaker 3: but it's been really trending of young people actually getting

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Speaker 3: off their phones doing the crafting is a similar small

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Speaker 3: activity with your hands that.

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Speaker 2: You can do in a few minutes.

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Speaker 3: But then they've been sharing their outputs back on social media.

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Speaker 3: So I think for me, the really important component comes

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Speaker 3: down to, is there the creativity and the imagination involved

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Speaker 3: in this and also, what is it that you're trying

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Speaker 3: to share with this. If it's about sharing those creative products,

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Speaker 3: that's a little bit different from sharing self images. Is

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Speaker 3: this about putting your self esteem into the art that

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Speaker 3: you're involved in as supposed to about your own looks

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Speaker 3: or your own selfies that are sort of coming out

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Speaker 3: of this, And I think that can be a helpful

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Speaker 3: differentiator in what is undoubtedly quite a complex balance and

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Speaker 3: blurred line.

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Speaker 1: So one thing that I loved I'll be thinking about

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Speaker 1: this next time I visited a hospital is how you

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Speaker 1: wrote about how having art, different forms of art in

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Speaker 1: hospitals can help patient outcomes.

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Speaker 4: What have you found there?

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Speaker 3: So we've I used to work in hospitals in the UK,

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Speaker 3: so I actually came out of at LEAs clinical programs

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Speaker 3: and I was constantly really inspired by the impact that

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Speaker 3: these programs have. I got to see firsthand that actually

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Speaker 3: there were scenarios arts could offer things that actually medication couldn't.

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Speaker 3: And I talk about some of these in the book,

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Speaker 3: like the role that arts can play for example, and

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Speaker 3: end of life care and really connecting families and supporting

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Speaker 3: processes like bereavement and grief, which is such a complex topic,

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Speaker 3: but one where we actually instinctively turn to the arts

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Speaker 3: to support us in that time in societies all around

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Speaker 3: the world. But there are also some other really interesting

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Speaker 3: clinical contexts where I actually think we're being less safe

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Speaker 3: and less ethical by not.

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Speaker 2: Incorporating the arts and hospitals.

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Speaker 3: So one example of that is thinking about surgical settings,

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Speaker 3: where anxiety is naturally a big thing for people if

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Speaker 3: they're going in to have surgeries, and actually if we

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Speaker 3: do something as simple as play recorded music for people

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Speaker 3: before and after their surgeries, we actually see really marked

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Speaker 3: reductions in their own anxiety levels, but also in the

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Speaker 3: amount of sedatives that they need and the amount of

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Speaker 3: opioids that people need as well. And in fact, studies

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Speaker 3: that have directly compared playing music to giving people anti

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Speaker 3: anxiety meds show the music is more effective than the

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Speaker 3: meds at reducing surgical anxiety. And given with talking about

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Speaker 3: big issues like opoid crises and things which often can

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Speaker 3: be triggered by things like having opioids following routine surgeries,

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Speaker 3: using things like the arts as a way of helping

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Speaker 3: people with more organic analgusics in natural analgusics, which is

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Speaker 3: exactly what music provides, is a really powerful cost saving

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Speaker 3: and almoso potentially life saving things to be thinking about.

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Speaker 1: So should patients be advocating I want to take in

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Speaker 1: my favorite playlist before my surgery.

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Speaker 4: Is that how this plays out?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 3: I think that's a great thing if people can remember

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Speaker 3: to be taking in those playlists. But I also think

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Speaker 3: it's something that we can be providing so easily in hospitals.

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Speaker 3: When I worked at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital in London,

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Speaker 3: we actually worked with Brian Eno, the composer, and he

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Speaker 3: developed this digital artwork that we placed in the booths

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Speaker 3: that patients waited in before their surgeries, and he had

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Speaker 3: his ambient music playing as well, and it was such

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Speaker 3: a lovely thing for the hospital then to be offering

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Speaker 3: that men. Even if people forgot to bring in their

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Speaker 3: own music or what sure what to listen to, they

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Speaker 3: had that really relaxing exposure before their operation.

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Speaker 1: That's incredible. You mentioned art in end of life care.

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Speaker 1: How does that actually play out? What does it look

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Speaker 1: like and what have you found?

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Speaker 3: So when I worked at Chelsea and Westminster, I remember

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Speaker 3: working on one of the wards, their palliative careward, where

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Speaker 3: there was a man who asked if he could have

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Speaker 3: music for his final hours, and his family were around him,

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Speaker 3: and we had a guitarist in the hospital that day,

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Speaker 3: So the guitarist went into the room and played loads

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Speaker 3: of his favorite music, and all of his family sang

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Speaker 3: along as they said goodbye, and they kept singing for

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Speaker 3: about an hour after he passed away. I felt like

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Speaker 3: that was such a poignant example, an incredible gift that

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Speaker 3: musician was able to give to that family in that

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Speaker 3: in his last moments together. And there are so many

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Speaker 3: examples that we see not just of music, but also

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Speaker 3: of physical artwork being used in similar processes. I'm thinking

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Speaker 3: of things like the HIV quilt, which has become like

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Speaker 3: the largest example of community art in the world and

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Speaker 3: has been such an important focal point for people to

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Speaker 3: be able to grieve.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, with playing music, especially singing wind instruments, you found

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Speaker 1: some beneficial things around lung health.

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Speaker 4: Tell us about that.

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Speaker 3: This is a really interesting emerging area of evidence because

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Speaker 3: most of us actually don't tend to breathe correctly. We

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Speaker 3: tend to do a lot of focus on the in breath,

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Speaker 3: like deep breaths, but actually not so much on the exhale,

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Speaker 3: and actually the exhale is where we focus all of

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Speaker 3: our attention when we're doing wind instruments or singing. That's

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Speaker 3: how we make the music. So there's been a number

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Speaker 3: of studies saying, well, if we were to use singing

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Speaker 3: or playing instruments, can we actually improve lung function in people?

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Speaker 3: And certainly we see that professional singers and wind instrument

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Speaker 3: players have better. They have stronger long function, they have

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Speaker 3: stronger outbreaths what's called forced expiratory volume. But this is

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Speaker 3: an interesting one in people who have conditions like chronic

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Speaker 3: lung diseases like COPD for example, And actually a number

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Speaker 3: of studies now have suggested that singing can actually helped

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Speaker 3: to improve things like feelings of breathlessness and improve some

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Speaker 3: lung function outcomes. So there are a number of programs

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Speaker 3: that have been integrating singing as part of pulmonary rehabilitation

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Speaker 3: for people with lung diseases.

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Speaker 1: We had Andy Gaalpin, who's an American researcher on the

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Speaker 1: podcast recently and he referenced the study that found people

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Speaker 1: who had played the dju do they were experiencing sleep ATNA.

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Speaker 1: Researchers how to play the dj DO and it improved

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Speaker 1: their sleep ATNA outcomes because it sort of taught them

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Speaker 1: to push their breath out. What have you found around

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Speaker 1: cognitive benefits, especially for older adults and arts.

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Speaker 3: This is a really interesting area that we've done quite

445
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,439
Speaker 3: a bit of work, and what we found is that

446
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 3: people who are regularly engaged in the arts actually have

447
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,959
Speaker 3: better preservation of their cognition as they get oldest. They

448
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 3: have better memory and executive function as they age. But

449
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 3: we've also found that they have a longer time free

450
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 3: from dementia, so a longer time until they actually start

451
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 3: to show signs of dementia. And this is because arts

452
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 3: engagement can help to build what's called cognitive reserve, and

453
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 3: this is the resilience of the brain against cognitive decliente.

454
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 3: So even if you're starting to develop their plaques and

455
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 3: the tangles that are their physiological hallmarks of dementia, if

456
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,360
Speaker 3: you've got higher levels of cognitive reserve, you can essentially

457
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 3: compensate for longer, so you can live with better cognitive

458
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 3: functioning before you start to show those symptoms. And actually,

459
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 3: increasingly we're starting to understand why and how art engagement

460
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 3: builds that cognitive reserve, and one of the things that

461
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 3: it does is it helps to build the connectivity between

462
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 3: regions of the brain that are vulnerable to aging, so

463
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 3: it helps them to talk strong better with each other,

464
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 3: and it also helps to build new neural pathways. And

465
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 3: in fact, people who are regularly engaged as professionals or

466
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 3: as amateurs in the arts actually have younger brain ages

467
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 3: to people who aren't engaging.

468
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. What if you found around in benefits for sleep?

469
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: This I thought was interesting too, especially around music, because

470
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: I would think if I need to fall asleep, anything's

471
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: perfectly silent. But there is some evidence that suggests music

472
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: and also help us sleep. And I feel like probably

473
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: everyone listening to this podcast has gone, you know what,

474
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: I could have more of sleep?

475
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 4: So how do I find that a lot of.

476
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: This seems to be links to stress?

477
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 3: So actually, the studies that have looked at music and

478
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 3: sleep have often looked at people listening to music earlier

479
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 3: in the day, So it's not necessarily about changing a

480
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 3: sleep routine, but it's trying to provide ways of reducing

481
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 3: stress levels because as many people who have sleep problems

482
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 3: will be conscious the biggest barrier to sleep is stress,

483
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 3: and so that physiological relaxation that you can get through.

484
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: Art is really fundamental there.

485
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 3: So we do see that people who listen can actually

486
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 3: improve their sleep over several weeks, and if people who

487
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 3: are regularly engaged in the arts tend to have better

488
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 3: sleep over time anyway, largely because of those reductions in stress.

489
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just this overall reducing stress seems to help

490
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 1: nearly everything in the body that we suffer from today.

491
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 4: Bad sleep affects heart to use all these different systems,

492
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 4: it does.

493
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: And one of the things that music is so good

494
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 3: at as a temporal art form is that if you

495
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: pick music with a slow beat, we tend to synchronize

496
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 3: our heart rate and our breathing to that beat.

497
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: It's a process called entrainment.

498
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 3: So it means that gradually we will calm ourselves down

499
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 3: because we will automatically want to synchronize, and that means

500
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 3: that music is not just a kind of mood relaxer,

501
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 3: but it is also physiological relaxer for us. Another sort

502
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,479
Speaker 3: of classic example is that people often feel better if

503
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 3: they're feeling sad and they listen to really sad music.

504
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 3: That can often make you feel better because it means

505
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 3: you feel validated emotionally, and it can help you to

506
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 3: understand your own emotions.

507
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 2: But equally, if.

508
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 3: You keep listening and keep listening to really downbeat or

509
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 3: sad things, then that could actually perpetuate negative emotions.

510
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: So there is a balance here.

511
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I talk in the book about some of

512
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 3: the strategies that people might want to know that might

513
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 3: help them with this. So things like if you're listening

514
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: to that really sad music and it's helping you initially,

515
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 3: there's a lovely thing which is called the isoprinciple, where

516
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 3: gradually each piece that you listen to, you try and

517
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: shift it a bit more towards the mood you want

518
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: to be in. So you're initially indulging that emotion, but

519
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: you're also gradually trying to shift.

520
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: That mood profile.

521
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 3: And there are some really great examples like that that

522
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 3: can inform people so they don't accidentally make themselves feel worse.

523
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 3: But feeling bad or worse is very much the minority

524
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: outcome compared to all the benefits the arts usually bring.

525
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's interesting.

526
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 1: We had a lady named Taylor Lorenz on the podcast,

527
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: and she's sort of an expert in internet culture and algorithms,

528
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: and she mentioned that one of the most powerful and

529
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: tuned up algorithms is actually in Spotify. Surprisingly, people think

530
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: that it's social media. No, it's actually Spotify. And she

531
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: had a friend that was going through a divorce, you know,

532
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: So she starts to listen to one sad song, and

533
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: then it starts feeding her more sad songs and more

534
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,360
Speaker 1: sad songs, and eventually this lady was like, I think

535
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: that my Spotify algorithm is actually making me more sad

536
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: and sort of pushing me down the drain. So it's

537
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: almost like she had to be all right, I have

538
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: to consciously start to listen to upbeat stuff so the

539
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: algorithm will go, okay, well, maybe the divorce is going

540
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: a little better now, maybe you've got a big sallement

541
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:03,959
Speaker 1: or whatever it is.

542
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's why it's good to be more

543
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: aware of the science, because you're right, those are algorithms

544
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 3: that won't know this science. These are algorithms that just think, oh,

545
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 3: you're enjoying this, I can leap you in and get

546
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 3: you to.

547
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: Do more of it.

548
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 3: But I think that's where people need to know how

549
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: they can they can take control of their engagement.

550
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: And I think that things that are ai led in

551
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: that way probably the things.

552
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 3: That are most likely to cause harm because they're not

553
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 3: considering the well being of the person at the core

554
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 3: of it.

555
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: We're going to take a break and then Daisy is

556
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: going to explain whether we engage with art more or

557
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: less today or in the past. Do you think that

558
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: people engage in arts less often today compared to the

559
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: past or is it?

560
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 2: Oh, we know they do way less. We did a

561
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: study last year.

562
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: In the US looking at adults in the US, and

563
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 3: we found that only one in twenty adults will say

564
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 3: that they did any arts yesterday. And if you go

565
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: back a few hundred years, like everybody was singing, dancing,

566
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 3: telling stories as part of everyday life. We were looking

567
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 3: and juststed it had to be the primary thing you

568
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: were doing, so you couldn't count plugging in headphones and

569
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 3: then multitasking. It had to be the thing you were

570
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 3: giving your attention to. But only five percent of adults

571
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 3: were doing.

572
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 4: It, only five percent.

573
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 3: And for reference, like in high income countries, fifty seven

574
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 3: percent will say they ate vegetables yesterday and forty percent

575
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 3: will say they did their physical activity. So compared to

576
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 3: other health promoting behaviors, arts is really coming out bottom.

577
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, So we go back to this is almost like

578
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: we were talking about how the thinking on these things

579
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: has shifted, where if you looked at say, people exercising,

580
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: which is moving for the sake of movement.

581
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 4: Forty years ago, when we.

582
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: Thought maybe exercise is good, maybe not like probably not

583
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: many people were doing it. And then as we've sort

584
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: of increased the awareness on night you see a small

585
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: upartic I will say more people should exercise, but still

586
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: it kind of suggests that arts is, to your point,

587
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: one of these things where the research is really growing,

588
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: it's really strong, yet we haven't quite caught up in

589
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: the discourse to get everyone on board.

590
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

591
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 3: I mean we can look at things like running as

592
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 3: a kind of parallel example. If you look back a

593
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 3: few decades compared to now, the average speed that adults

594
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 3: ran a five k and a ten k was faster,

595
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 3: not because people are getting slower now, but because more

596
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 3: and more people are getting into running, even if they

597
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 3: didn't think of themselves as a runner before. And that's

598
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 3: such a wonderful success story because it's saying that we're

599
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 3: actually managing to broaden the appeal of such a simple

600
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 3: exercise like running, And I think it would be amazing

601
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 3: if we saw a similar thing with the arts. It's

602
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 3: not got to be You've not got to be a

603
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 3: great artist to be doing arts. It's not about that,

604
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 3: it's about participating. So i'd love to see a similar

605
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 3: statistic in a couple of decades showing that more and

606
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: more people have been engaging in the art and it's

607
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 3: become much more accessible as a.

608
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: Thing to do.

609
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 4: What do you think holds people back from trying art?

610
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: Many people don't think they're artistic or creative, and I

611
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: think this is the biggest barrier people face, and it

612
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 3: was sort of perpetuating it because whether you feel artistic

613
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: will come down to whether you did arts in school

614
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 3: and therefore you felt that you were good at it,

615
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: and arts is getting more like less and less accessible in.

616
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: Schools, so we're creating more and more of this problem.

617
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: But I think there's also another issue, which is it

618
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 3: can feel sometimes like something that's a bit inaccessible, like

619
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 3: is it expensive or if you do you need an

620
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: arts venue, is it something that you feel is socially

621
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 3: the norm where you live. So I think there were

622
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 3: lots of different barriers that we need to break down

623
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 3: because at the moment, there is quite a strong social gradient.

624
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 3: Yet people who engage in the arts are typically people

625
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 3: who are wealthier, or got more education, or come from

626
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 3: backgrounds where they did arts themselves as a child.

627
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, big question. What counts as art? I think when

628
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: people hear art, they go, Okay, it's painting, it's probably music,

629
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: it's sculpting. Opera, yes, opera, Everyone get into opera. But

630
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: what counts as art?

631
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 5: So?

632
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 3: I define arts engagement as creative activities that people do

633
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 3: that have the core artistic ingredients and for me though,

634
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 3: are multisensory stimulation, creativity, esthetics, imagination. So yes, that includes

635
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 3: things like performing arts, visual arts, literature, going to cultural

636
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 3: venues and festivals. But I also think it should include

637
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 3: things like horticultural arts like growing and arranging flowers, or

638
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: culinary arts like baking and decorating cakes.

639
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: Those contain all of those.

640
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: Same ingredients as to things like carpentry and woodwork, which

641
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 3: have got exactly those same creative processes. And I think

642
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 3: that can also make it a slightly more accessible definition

643
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: that people actually might realize they already are engaging in

644
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 3: these things and they're not giving it their label, or

645
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: they might find activities that might be less common, but

646
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: actually ones that really speak to them.

647
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if this is sort of akin to exercise,

648
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: where the best exercise is the one that you enjoy

649
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: and we'll actually do, and that sort of applies to art.

650
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: It's just find something that hits those boxes that you

651
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,479
Speaker 1: just mentioned and then try it up, see what happens,

652
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: and if you like it, stick to it.

653
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: I think that's exactly right.

654
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: And there are plenty of people who would hate the

655
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 3: idea of going to a gym, but actually we get

656
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 3: massively into really quirky sports or physical activity hobbies and

657
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 3: that's brilliant and that's exactly the attitude that we want

658
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 3: to have with arts. You've not got to go to

659
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: the opera. You need to find that creative practice that

660
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 3: you really enjoy.

661
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: Given what we've talked about on all these emerging benefits,

662
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: what is your thoughts on should we have better policies

663
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: to promote art and what is the role of I

664
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: guess communities, governments, different groups and getting art to the

665
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: forefront Because you did mention only five percent of people

666
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: are actually engaging every day.

667
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: Well, it's actually a United Nations human right that everyone

668
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 3: has access to the arts and we know it's one

669
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 3: of the only UN human rights that is not monitored,

670
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 3: and we know it as far from being achieved. So

671
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 3: I think there definitely is a role for governments and

672
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: thinking well, actually, how can we make arts accessible to

673
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: try and break down some of those barriers. And actually

674
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: we're seeing at international levels, like bodies like UNESCO and

675
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 3: Weld Health Organization are getting really behind trying to encourage

676
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 3: people to recognize arts as a health promoting behavior because

677
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 3: actually at national levels we see that investing in the

678
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 3: arts is not a nice thing. I mean it is,

679
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 3: but it's not just a nice thing. We actually see

680
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 3: really strong returns on investments. So in the UK, for example,

681
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 3: for every pound that goes in via Arts Council budgets

682
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: to fund arts in communities, we see around eleven pounds

683
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: return on investment in terms of the well being benefits,

684
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 3: reductions and health and social care utilization and improvements in productivity.

685
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 3: And those are just the health benefits. We know there

686
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 3: are other ways that the arts producer return on investment too,

687
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: So I think a lot of this is actually getting

688
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: governments to realize it's actually an investment putting money.

689
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: Into the arts. But there's also a really important role.

690
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 3: I think about how we think about the arts in

691
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 3: terms of curriculum and educational policies, making sure all the

692
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: young people have that opportunity to engage, both for their

693
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: own mental health now and to support future engagements, and

694
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 3: also seeing how we can perhaps value artists a bit

695
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 3: differently because artists have such precarious working situations often and.

696
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: Like fluctuating pay.

697
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 3: My parents are both freelance artists, so I very much

698
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: see this world and I think we could be reconsidering

699
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 3: actually how important artists are in communities and how important

700
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: their work is, and seeing how we can support them more.

701
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: I just want to put a pin in that one

702
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: pound invested returns eleven pounds in.

703
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: Terms of well being benefits.

704
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

705
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 3: So this is work we've carried out in the UK

706
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 3: where we've used the government's own Treasury Green Book, which

707
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 3: is kind of about economic book to value this. And

708
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 3: basically each point improvement in well being that we see

709
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 3: is monetized because we know if you have higher well being,

710
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 3: you can be more independent, you can contribute more to society,

711
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 3: and these are the returns on investment that come out

712
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 3: at a population level.

713
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: I believe that investors call anything that gives any more

714
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: than a ten x return a unicorn, and that's like

715
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: the best thing you can hope for in investments. That's

716
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: pretty phenomenal. I thought you were going to say maybe

717
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: two or three, but eleven.

718
00:33:58,880 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 5: Is.

719
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 3: The challenge is that these values are often recuperated across

720
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 3: different government departments.

721
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: So this is where the challenge comes in.

722
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: Because government departments often want something that will produce a

723
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: direct return to their department, they won't care so much

724
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 3: if it goes to a different government department, and that

725
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 3: can be a challenge. But there's another really nice example

726
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 3: actually recently, which was looking at Ireland and they have

727
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 3: been implementing a universal basic income for artists. So they've

728
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 3: just been given a salary to artists and they've been saying, well, actually,

729
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: what happens, And they've found that the artists not only

730
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 3: have improvements themselves and mental health well being, but they

731
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 3: actually produce more art, they involve more members of the

732
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 3: public in their art, and they actually manage to generate

733
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 3: more income for themselves and also for society through their

734
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 3: art if they have that basic income. So we're seeing

735
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 3: these sort of returns coming back in so many different ways.

736
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 3: Across different kinds of economic modeling.

737
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 4: How do you think the US does and all this

738
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 4: kind of stuff.

739
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: The US, it's got a convex set up because you've

740
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 3: got different policies across states as well as nationally, so

741
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 3: it can be I guess harder in that way to

742
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 3: see massive change in people's engagement. But I think the

743
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: US has been really innovative recently in having arts on

744
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 3: prescription programs in eighteen different parts of the US, and

745
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 3: I've been involved in the evaluation of this program, and

746
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 3: it's been really incredible, actually even seeing insurance companies actually

747
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 3: putting money into this, recognizing that actually, if people can

748
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 3: be given referrals to arts by healthcare professionals, it can

749
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 3: support their well being and their functioning and actually mean

750
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 3: that they're not necessarily they're needing to draw on health

751
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 3: services in the same way. So it can actually produce

752
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 3: returns on investment for those insurers too.

753
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: That's really cool. Okay, we're going to start to land

754
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: the plane. Someone hears this conversation, they're kind of interested.

755
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: Where would you tell them to start.

756
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: Well, reading my book is definitely a good place to start.

757
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: As I second that as a fellow author, I will

758
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: say yes, read more books. Final question, So we started

759
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: this conversation with the John Adams quote about art. The

760
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: thing is he didn't actually study art, and you do

761
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: with the foremost researcher in the world on art. So, enclosing,

762
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: what would your big quote about art be, I'd.

763
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 3: Say arts are not a luxury in our lives, there

764
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 3: in necessity, and I really believe that they are a

765
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 3: missing pillar of our health.

766
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 4: I love it. Well, Daisy, thanks so much for coming

767
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 4: on the show.

768
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on.

769
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 4: Thanks to Daisy.

770
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: Now we're going to talk to Jesse Albrech about war

771
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: and a ceramic work right after the break.

772
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 4: All right, Jesse, thanks for coming on.

773
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 5: Man. Yeah, thanks for having me. Stoked to be here.

774
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: So you joined the military when you were studying art

775
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: in college. You get in How did the military guys

776
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: take your art background?

777
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 6: Well, initially as a youngster, there was a little bit

778
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 6: of scrap and that had to earn that placeholder for

779
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 6: me when I was, you know, an eighteen nineteen year

780
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 6: old kid in the field artillery. But yeah, it was

781
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 6: all kind of good need shured, hardcore Wisconsin ribbing. And

782
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 6: then when I joined the other unit down in Iowa City.

783
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 6: I was a little bit older, and I think being

784
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 6: the fact that it was a medical unit, there was

785
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 6: a little bit more grace given to varying backgrounds.

786
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes sense. So you what year did you join?

787
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 5: Nineteen ninety six.

788
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: I enlisted, Okay, and then eventually nine to eleven happens

789
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: you went over to Iraq, right, correct?

790
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 6: So I I just started my third semester of graduate school.

791
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 6: I was in my MFA program in the ceramics program

792
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 6: at the University of Iowa and Iowa City, and it

793
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 6: was February when we got put on active duties. So

794
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 6: I withdrew from that semester and we deployed out of

795
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 6: Fort McCoy in Wisconsin in February. It was pretty cold.

796
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 6: We ended up loading art all of our equipment. We

797
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 6: had ambulances and stuff like that. Home vs and and

798
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 6: inducing a half trucks on the trains that went down

799
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 6: to Florida got loaded on boats. But we went over

800
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 6: on a plane. So we landed Kuwait, and you know,

801
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 6: I think it was the idea was to have people

802
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 6: there and when our equipment got there, you know, it

803
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 6: took a while for the boats to get there, so

804
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 6: there was an adjustment period sitting in the desert waiting.

805
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 6: The actual ground assault ended then and then there was

806
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 6: a lot of unknowing, a lot of like I said,

807
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 6: a lot of waiting, a lot of rumors, and then

808
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 6: we ended up after probably a month or two in Kuwait.

809
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 6: We then drove into Iraq and got up to northern Iraq.

810
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 6: We were just south of Mosul, and pretty quickly then

811
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 6: a buddy of mine and a PA spent about a

812
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 6: month on the Turkish border in a town called Zako

813
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 6: provide medical.

814
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 5: Support for.

815
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 6: The folks that were escorting pro paint tanks tankers coming into.

816
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 5: Iraq, and then spent most of the time in Mosel.

817
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, Mosel was a pretty hot area right it started.

818
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 6: It started very chill, and then pretty quickly it got

819
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 6: it got exciting, and then it got much more exciting

820
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 6: as time went on. So, uh, there was there was

821
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 6: like a brief lull where it was kind of like hey, oh,

822
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 6: you know, everything's great, and then pretty quickly things were

823
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 6: not great.

824
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was the So we were effectively trying to

825
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: take Mosl and obviously facing a lot of resistance.

826
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 6: No, so in a sense like it was like, hey,

827
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 6: you know, we won the war. It was kind of

828
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 6: like the initial thing. So the battle for Mosel wasn't

829
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 6: happening when I was there. It was it was like,

830
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 6: you know, things were in a sense chill, and then

831
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 6: things started, you know, the the insurgency started picking up

832
00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 6: steam with IED's rocket mortar attacks, you know, grenades and

833
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 6: and those type of attacks in the city while while

834
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 6: we were there.

835
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you were on the medical unit.

836
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 5: Correct.

837
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 6: We were an area support medical battalion, and so the

838
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 6: advantage of that is we had ambulances and so we

839
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 6: could ground evac and then quickly that turned into uh

840
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 6: just evaking to metavacts once, you know, very very quickly

841
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 6: it became unsafe to drive around town very much.

842
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,720
Speaker 5: And uh yeah.

843
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 6: And then also like there was one time where I

844
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 6: did one uh we were at the Palace, which is

845
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 6: in the northern part, and then the there was a

846
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 6: hospital that was at the airfield, and you know, I

847
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 6: drove one time with there was just two of us

848
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 6: in an ambulance across Mosel to do an evacuation of

849
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 6: a of a of a routine patient and I was

850
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 6: just like, this is bananas. And that was the last

851
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 6: time we did that. I mean, nothing happened, but like

852
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 6: you know, two kids with pistols could have killed us easily.

853
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: You know, like there was just so much risk and

854
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: threat that even just moving from point to a point

855
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: bre just like out and felt like out in the open,

856
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: like anything could happen.

857
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, I mean it's yes and no, Like you know,

858
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 6: I think there was enough where pretty quickly, you know,

859
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 6: there was there was a there was a pretty uh

860
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 6: pretty legit attack with some grenades right outside of the

861
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 6: of the gate of where we were at, and so

862
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 6: we saw those combat h casualties right away, treated them.

863
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 6: And then you know, the hundred and first Airborne is

864
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 6: who we got attached to, and they have a lot

865
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 6: of helicopters, and so the chief medical officer that was

866
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 6: that was there made the decision quickly like hey, we

867
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 6: have all these helicopters, we're going to air evac you know, casualties.

868
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 5: And so that's what we did.

869
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 6: Now within that, we did so part of what we

870
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 6: did is we ran an aid station. We had a

871
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 6: medical professional with us, which was a huge asset, and

872
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 6: so we ran the aid station with sick call, so

873
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 6: all your medical stuff and then also all your emergency

874
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 6: stuff for this base that we were at, and then

875
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 6: we also provided security for the Division surgeon and the

876
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 6: Division chaplain for the one hundred and first Airborne, So

877
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 6: those are the top officers that oversee all those kind

878
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 6: of operations, and so we quickly became their security detachment

879
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 6: with only M sixteen's and we weren't issued the ceramic

880
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 6: plates that would stop bullets until right before redeployed. So

881
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 6: these soft skin humbies quickly became mad Max with sandbags

882
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 6: and everything else.

883
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 5: Ratchet strapped on and things were exciting, and it was quickly.

884
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 6: I was just terrified because we were trained as medics,

885
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 6: and I think the mentality was kind of like, well,

886
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 6: you know, it's going to be okay with some folks,

887
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 6: and I didn't have that feeling. I was like, well,

888
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 6: we need to do stuff, and by we that quickly

889
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 6: meant okay, I'm going.

890
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 5: To go figure out I'm going to.

891
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 6: Go talk to folks that are their job is to

892
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 6: have that aggressive posture and to not take the fight

893
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 6: to the enemy, and we need to have that mentality

894
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 6: when we go out.

895
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 5: We need to figure out our radios, we need to

896
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 5: figure out.

897
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 6: Our maps, we need to have a plan if you know,

898
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 6: things go bad, and so, you know, it was it

899
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 6: was quickly like hey, look around, is this happening. No,

900
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 6: it's like okay, well, this is what I'm going to do.

901
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 6: And so it was through just being terrified that I

902
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 6: kind of looked around and said, hey, this this just

903
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 6: is not right. There's a lot more we could and

904
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 6: should be doing. And so it took that initiative and

905
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 6: you got to do everything you can, even when you

906
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 6: don't have a lot.

907
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: Now when you got back, you've told me that military

908
00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: sort of sighte you down in the room and plage

909
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 1: you VHS tape like, Karen, now you watched this VHS tape.

910
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: Now you'll leave this experience, fine, tell us about that.

911
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, So you know it was.

912
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 6: It was April in two thousand and four when we redeployed,

913
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 6: and I mean you could look around and just know

914
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 6: things were not going good and you're like, I'm stoked

915
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 6: to be out of here and to redeploy again through

916
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 6: Fort McCoy and which was a base that was mainly

917
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 6: World War Two. The National Guard uses it a lot,

918
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 6: and so we were still in the first wave of

919
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 6: really people getting redeployed from that.

920
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 5: It was in this room with a chaplain.

921
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 6: A VHS tape was played of a horse whisper, like

922
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 6: a documentary kind of that was it was an abstract concept,

923
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 6: right of like they used to break horses with violence.

924
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 6: Now they learned how to use communication to better understand

925
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 6: this animal and not use violence. You just spent a

926
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 6: year using violence to stay alive and to solve your problems.

927
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 6: Now is not the time to use that violence anymore.

928
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 6: Now you should use communication in these other cues, and

929
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 6: you're breathing to solve your problems. Well, none of those

930
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 6: dots were connected. It was play the tape, you know,

931
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 6: horse whisper. The joke was that's good looking and chewing

932
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 6: was like one of the repetitious things that he kept

933
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 6: saying in the video with horse training, which I don't

934
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 6: know anything about. And so a bunch of you know,

935
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 6: twenty year olds that are just jacked and stoked to

936
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 6: be not in Iraq anymore, we're left loose in the world,

937
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 6: and kind of that was it like, hey, good luck,

938
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 6: you know. So it was a pretty much you're kind

939
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 6: of reintroduced into your original environment with a much different

940
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 6: You're not the same person, and so it was it

941
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 6: was definitely left a lot to be desired, and I

942
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 6: think everybody figured it out kind of the hard way

943
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 6: of like we need to be more thoughtful and take

944
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 6: a lot more approaches to better integrate, and it's still

945
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 6: really hard better integrate soldiers and people coming back from

946
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 6: war zones.

947
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you feel most helped you reintegrate? I

948
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: know you mentioned that you found some guys in the

949
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: art world who were also Vats.

950
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it took a while for me to find

951
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 5: those folks.

952
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 6: It was pre internet and so up until so I

953
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 6: was able to luckily have the infrastructure of ceramics and

954
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 6: that community in my corner, having gone to undergrad for

955
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 6: it and was in graduate school and a friend of

956
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 6: mine was going to fire this woodkiln in Arizona, and

957
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 6: so so having that has something to go into as

958
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 6: just because I was I just felt so uncomfortable being

959
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 6: back and doing anything besides being in Iraq. Felt comically

960
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 6: silly in terms of like life and death decisions every day,

961
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 6: you know, gave you meaning and and a really pointed

962
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 6: daily activity.

963
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 5: Right.

964
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, So coming back and just being totally like, hey,

965
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 6: figure it out now, I was like, I mean, that's

966
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 6: what happens, right, And so it was like all my

967
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 6: friends were graduating, and so yeah, thankfully I had that

968
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 6: opportunity with Straam because to kind of get me an

969
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 6: opportunity as like you know, like the cops put the

970
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 6: safety strips out as I'm going one hundred miles an hour,

971
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 6: I hit those and the safety strips were ceramics.

972
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: What kind of conversations you have with other vets who

973
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: are in the art space, specifically ceramics and some of

974
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: the guys you've worked under and with.

975
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 6: Like back in that that time, So like the conversations

976
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 6: I have now versus the conversations and you know, this

977
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 6: is like two thousand and four is when I got back. Yeah,

978
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 6: I was so so the conversations in two thousand and four.

979
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 6: I didn't even know you just kind of think everything

980
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 6: is fine, And I was trying to go on pretending

981
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 6: that like kind of nothing happened, even though it was

982
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 6: so like I didn't know how much I changed at

983
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 6: that time. Yeah, and so that's where I was going

984
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 6: from that mindset of like, oh yeah, I'm still in

985
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 6: my mind, Okay, now I'm back to that old person

986
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 6: that was, you know, in the National Guard.

987
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 5: But also was.

988
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 6: An artist and going through my my my ceramics program

989
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 6: as a graduate student. So the conversations at that time

990
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 6: were they were kind of like I think it was

991
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 6: apparent to everybody that knew me before, and also people

992
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 6: seeing me like this, this guy's really changed a lot,

993
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,879
Speaker 6: but I still couldn't see it because I was in it.

994
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like that's probably pretty common.

995
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 6: Yep, yeah, and so and so in like, you know,

996
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 6: to the to the question of it was like two

997
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 6: thousand and six when I first kind of heard of

998
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 6: some other people that were more recent veterans. There was

999
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 6: one of my professors, Bunny McBride, was in the Army.

1000
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 6: He's definitely an older gentleman at that time. And you know,

1001
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 6: I had my other professor, Chuck Hines, wasn't in the service,

1002
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 6: but you know, those that generation kind of those.

1003
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 5: You know, the numbers of how old those folks would

1004
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 5: be today.

1005
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 6: Would be in their eighties, you know, or nineties, but

1006
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,280
Speaker 6: they had seen, you know, so Chuck was great about

1007
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 6: having friends that came back from Vietnam, and so a

1008
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 6: lot of that generation of those professors had seen, you know,

1009
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 6: had friends that had served and came back and knew

1010
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 6: how to kind.

1011
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 5: Of just say, hey, we're here for you.

1012
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 6: I don't know what you went through, but we're going

1013
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 6: to do what we can to take care of you here.

1014
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 6: And that was huge, you know. It actually took until

1015
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 6: two thousand maybe fourteen, the first time I had a

1016
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 6: chance to really have a ceramics residency with other other veterans.

1017
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 6: And backing up, I was also able to kind of

1018
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 6: connect with some other veteran artists, but again after I

1019
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 6: was done with school and and the conversations really were

1020
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 6: about I think how kind of messed up it was

1021
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 6: in that first era of OIF one of what it

1022
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 6: was in Iraq and how it was like so you know,

1023
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 6: like you're kind of trying to like you're really figuring

1024
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 6: it out what's happening as things are changing drastically by

1025
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 6: the day. And and and also that was the time

1026
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 6: I think where one thing.

1027
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 5: Was said that got us there.

1028
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 6: We quickly could see I could see like what was

1029
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 6: said at what got us here? And and everybody I

1030
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 6: talked to was like, yeah, no, this isn't there's no

1031
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 6: WMTS there, And so there was a huge disillusionment in

1032
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 6: terms of the integrity of the whole mission kind of

1033
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 6: felt in question. So that's what a lot of the

1034
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 6: conversations that I had early on with folks was.

1035
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 5: Just this deep feeling of betrayal of the ideas that

1036
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 5: I had.

1037
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:17,280
Speaker 6: Of being like a fourth generation or sixth generation, depending

1038
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 6: how accurate the numbers are, combat veteran.

1039
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 5: And I had this idea in my mind of like, hey,

1040
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 5: I'm a good guy. We're here to get the bad guys.

1041
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 6: It's black and white, cut and dry, and so the

1042
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 6: they're trying to reconcile this idea I had in my

1043
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 6: head and the reality was really really hard.

1044
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 5: That took me a long time to kind of come

1045
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 5: to terms with that.

1046
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did that come out in your art? And

1047
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: I know you've told me your artist kind of shifted

1048
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: in the last tenful of years, but how did that

1049
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: initially kind of manifest itself in the work you're doing.

1050
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 6: Initially it was, you know, I mentioned I'm like a

1051
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 6: fourth fourth generation combat veteran, so Vietnam, Pearl Harbor, Terowa,

1052
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 6: New Guinea, and then the First.

1053
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 5: World War were folks that I knew in my family.

1054
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 6: Is that I was trying to express the human what

1055
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 6: I was, the human experience of being a soldier in combat,

1056
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 6: and then also the conversations that I wish I would

1057
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 6: have had with my grandfather died when right before I

1058
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 6: came back home. He was a medic and actually an

1059
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 6: ambulance driver, so the same kind of job title I

1060
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,959
Speaker 6: actually had. He was a medic and an ambulance driver

1061
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 6: in New Guinea and the Second World War. So it

1062
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 6: was like really violent, angry, dark was the work that

1063
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 6: I was making. The Abu Gree pictures of the torture

1064
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 6: images came out right kind of as we were getting home,

1065
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 6: and those were really a I mean, it was heartbreaking

1066
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 6: and just so kind of disgusting to see at that

1067
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 6: that that was done under you know, by by our soldiers.

1068
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 6: And but but it also for me became a really

1069
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 6: powerful image of like this is this is what war

1070
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 6: does to people, and it opens this door for the

1071
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 6: most horrible things that people do to each other. And

1072
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 6: so I got stuck on that track of trying to

1073
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 6: and this is such a kind of a naive and

1074
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 6: it makes me a naive thought of like, well maybe

1075
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 6: if I just make work that shows people, then they'll

1076
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 6: know and then there won't be any more war, you know.

1077
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 5: Like that's that was like truly where I was coming from.

1078
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 6: And it makes me Yeah, I mean it's I think

1079
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 6: it's a noble thing and I think it's worth doing.

1080
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, But I also it sucked me in, you know.

1081
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: And then your work you said your work shifted was

1082
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 1: like five years ago and kind of took on. I

1083
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,720
Speaker 1: don't know if you use the word a more positive

1084
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: bent or what, but like tell us about that. How

1085
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: did the work change, and then also what prompted that change?

1086
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 5: So my work changed in twenty two.

1087
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 6: In a huge way because I got to a place

1088
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 6: where I spent two months in the VA Hospital in

1089
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 6: Montana in the Trauma Recovery program, which is an impatient

1090
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 6: PTSD program, And that really saved me for a lot

1091
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 6: of reasons in a lot of ways. And so I

1092
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 6: went from only being able to focus on the negative

1093
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 6: and that so that started in like two thousand and

1094
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 6: four of really focusing and examining and thinking about my actions,

1095
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 6: my family's actions in these in these wars, and I

1096
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 6: conducted myself with honor and integrity. Did I make some mistakes, absolutely,

1097
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 6: but nothing in a really horrific way.

1098
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 5: But that overall.

1099
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 6: Feeling of being a part of something that wasn't didn't

1100
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 6: have integrity to start pulled me in and then I

1101
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 6: just it became a just such a negative spiral. That's

1102
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 6: all I focused on. And that's what I became is

1103
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 6: more and more negative by focusing on that. So in

1104
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,280
Speaker 6: twenty twenty I got into this program. Despite my best efforts,

1105
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 6: you know, my life became unmanageable. And that was in

1106
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 6: the terms of war and PTSD. And I was able to,

1107
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 6: through a lot of hard work and help from a

1108
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 6: lot of other people along the way, and all of this,

1109
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 6: be able to come to a place where, I mean

1110
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 6: the real point was in a you know, through prayer

1111
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,919
Speaker 6: and in a sweat lodge Fort Harrison that's contracted through

1112
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 6: the Helena Indian Alliance, you know, with about twenty five

1113
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,360
Speaker 6: percent of the folks I was in the program with

1114
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 6: were Native Americans. And through the combination of that of

1115
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 6: like that spiritual powerful experience in addition to doing under

1116
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 6: the kind of Western eggheads sitting in fluorescent lights with

1117
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 6: tile in a institution of you know, these cognitive behavioral

1118
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 6: therapy worksheets. Okay, what you know to see all my

1119
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 6: corrupt thought patterns and see how I just distorted my

1120
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 6: distorted thinking and the negative patterns that I have. I

1121
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 6: was able through that break that experience apart, and it

1122
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,359
Speaker 6: was truly like being reborn to be able to come

1123
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 6: out and watch the sun come up and the sun set.

1124
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 6: And it's like I remember thinking and just being overwhelmed

1125
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 6: with emotion of like how beautiful this place is, but

1126
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 6: I wasn't able to see it, feel it, or experience

1127
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 6: it because I was so I'd become so in just

1128
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 6: choked off in this negativity that I did to myself.

1129
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 5: And so my work.

1130
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 6: Then after that, like it's before that, it was just

1131
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 6: one note of like dark, horrible, people are bad, everything's terrible,

1132
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 6: and it had that aesthetic and it was aggressive and

1133
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 6: violent and really dark. So then after the fact, so

1134
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 6: the other note that that is in this is like

1135
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 6: my daughter is probably six years old or no, she

1136
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 6: was five, I think at this time, and I realized

1137
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 6: it wasn't for myself. It was for my daughter that

1138
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 6: I decided I needed I needed more help, Like I.

1139
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 5: Could see my you know, my.

1140
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 6: Experiences and who I'd become because of my service and

1141
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 6: inability to recover from it was having a negative impact

1142
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 6: on her. And I was able to you know to

1143
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 6: through some things that you know, find my way into

1144
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 6: this program. That really saved me and and the work

1145
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 6: shifted and I was able to I made a body

1146
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 6: of work that was focused on recovery and also could

1147
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 6: have aspects of beauty in it.

1148
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 5: And so so that was huge.

1149
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 4: That's a super powerful story.

1150
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: Like you go in this place one way and like

1151
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: through these experiences with other people, Yes you've got the science,

1152
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: but then you've also have like the actual experience and

1153
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: just totally shift and then that changes things moving forward.

1154
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: So we had we talked to this researcher whose name

1155
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 1: is Daisy Fancoork and she said that art is healing.

1156
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: And I know when we had a conversation you were

1157
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: somewhat skeptical of that. So and and based on what

1158
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: you just told us, what's your take on that opinion?

1159
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 5: I think it. I think it can be for a

1160
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 5: lot of people.

1161
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 6: I think the reason that I kind of, I guess

1162
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 6: get a little tight in my chest is that I've

1163
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 6: seen it in a couple of ways that like, again

1164
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 6: one hundred percent, absolutely it can be for a lot

1165
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 6: of people. I've seen it use in a kind of

1166
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 6: a way to be dismissive and as a pejorative in

1167
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 6: the art world to say, well, that's just that therapy art,

1168
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 6: that's just you know, as in like a really really

1169
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 6: kind of negative way interesting. That is so disgusting to

1170
00:58:55,600 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 6: me that it just dismisses it completely. And again I'm

1171
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 6: able to see now that that's not about me, that's

1172
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 6: about whatever that person and the people that make those comments.

1173
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 6: That has to do with issues that they're that they're

1174
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 6: dealing with. I've never actually done our therapy, it's the

1175
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 6: other thing. It's like I've done you know, therapy, therapy,

1176
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 6: individual group, you know. And so in terms of like

1177
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 6: the other thing is that I through what I focused

1178
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 6: on and was trying to communicate through my art, I

1179
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 6: actually think at a certain point, well, I know, I

1180
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 6: made myself sicker because because I became we become what

1181
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 6: we focus on, and I was focusing on the negative

1182
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 6: at trying to communicate the negative aspects of myself and

1183
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 6: the experience in war overlaid with my family history and

1184
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 6: then you know, going back and forth in that regard,

1185
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 6: that's how I focused on and that that was such

1186
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 6: a terrifying thing to be able to look back and

1187
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 6: see I did this to myself by what I focused on,

1188
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 6: and I was focusing on that to put it in

1189
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 6: my art.

1190
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,120
Speaker 5: So it's it's like it's a really in it. I've

1191
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 5: thought about.

1192
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 6: It, like it's hard to know at what point it

1193
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 6: became a great way to kind of have a catharsis

1194
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 6: and to express myself and to find a voice and

1195
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 6: have that.

1196
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 5: So then it became that's what was pulling me in.

1197
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 5: You know.

1198
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 6: I say, like I looked into the void, will the

1199
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 6: void pulled me back into it and it is terrifying.

1200
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 6: It was like terrifying.

1201
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: So it's almost like to a certain point it potentially

1202
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: helped you initially and then sucked you in and you

1203
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 1: needed to point it in a more positive direction for

1204
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: that art to actually have enhance your life.

1205
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 6: Absolutely absolutely, And it was just me. I mean, this

1206
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 6: is like the silliest thing. It was me not understanding

1207
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 6: how powerful what my focus is or was. But the

1208
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 6: thing too, going back with that is to say, you know,

1209
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 6: again through all this, I have amazing friends, and that

1210
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 6: most of them that are artists. You know, the two

1211
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 6: friend groups are veterans and artists or people in the military,

1212
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 6: and the artists friends like unbelievably like I can't say

1213
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 6: enough of how grateful I am for them, but would say,

1214
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 6: you know, like, hey, maybe sometime you could try making

1215
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 6: something beautiful, And I would almost get angry in not

1216
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 6: allowing myself to feel like I felt like I had

1217
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 6: to try to express this experience about war so deeply

1218
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 6: and powerfully that to try to focus on anything beautiful

1219
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 6: felt like it was that like self punishment thing in

1220
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 6: a way, like I just couldn't give myself permission to

1221
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 6: do that.

1222
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: Well, take a break, and then Jesse is going to

1223
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 1: explain how you can start making art even if you

1224
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: feel as lost as I do with that whole world.

1225
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 1: So if someone's listening to this, they're interested in art.

1226
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 4: But it's also like how do you start? What do

1227
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 4: you tell people?

1228
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 1: Like where do you start for inchance, whether it's pottery, weather, whatever,

1229
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 1: Like what the hell should people do? I find myself

1230
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 1: in that where I'm like, pottery sounds awesome, but I'm like,

1231
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: how the hell do you start pottery?

1232
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, so you start by starting, And I think

1233
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 6: the biggest thing is to just say, you know, learning

1234
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 6: to throw in the wheel is it's it takes a

1235
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 6: long time. So but working with clay, you can build

1236
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 6: stuff quicker faster, you can you know, within I just

1237
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 6: did a workshop in Great Falls with veterans and in

1238
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 6: a couple of hours you can build a pretty big

1239
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 6: piece that you can then decorate, but not on the wheel.

1240
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 6: And so I would say if find you in your

1241
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 6: local community, community center museum, definitely with ceramics, you're gonna

1242
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 6: need some infrastructure at kiln now if and then drawing

1243
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 6: and painting and.

1244
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 5: Stuff like that.

1245
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 6: There's a ton of stuff right that you can find

1246
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 6: online as resources. But I think one of the great

1247
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 6: things is to sit around with a couple of friends

1248
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 6: and to draw and laugh and then have your friend

1249
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 6: draw on it, because then it takes the pressure off

1250
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 6: that you have to make something and then you can

1251
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 6: try to make something funny. That collaborative thing can be

1252
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 6: a way to do it. That is amazing. The other

1253
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 6: thing is like going back to my days as a teacher.

1254
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 6: It's kind of like interval training. Uh, blind contour drawing.

1255
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 6: If you want to work on your observational drawing skills,

1256
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 6: look up blind contour drawing.

1257
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 5: It's like where you you.

1258
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 6: So the biggest thing if you want to learn how

1259
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 6: to observationally draw is that you have to change the

1260
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 6: way you see because when you look at something, your brain,

1261
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 6: you know, you can't take in all the information. So

1262
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 6: your brain takes this quick snapshot and says fuck it,

1263
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:52,439
Speaker 6: you know, bowl TV. So that's why the initial drawing

1264
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 6: is like, wow, why does this look so simple? It's

1265
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 6: like because that's what your brain is telling you. It

1266
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 6: looks like because you would not just be overwhelmed. So

1267
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:02,840
Speaker 6: it's really blind conto or drawing shows you how to

1268
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 6: see the relationship of parts of things because you just

1269
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 6: look at the piece and you don't move your pencil

1270
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 6: or your pen and so you're you're having you're building

1271
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 6: a connection between your hand and your eye moves and

1272
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 6: your hand moves. You know, you're trying to trace it

1273
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 6: with your hand as your eye moves around it. So

1274
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 6: blind contrue or drawing is that kind of got sucked

1275
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 6: into that.

1276
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 4: That's great, it's a good tip.

1277
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 1: So with when we interviewed that woman I mentioned earlier,

1278
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: the researcher, our final question was what would your one

1279
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 1: big quote about art be? So now we're throwing that

1280
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 1: one to you. What is your one big quote about art?

1281
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: If you had to end on one.

1282
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 6: I think I know art is a human need. It's

1283
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 6: it's a fundamental aspect of who we are now, whether

1284
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 6: it's dance, whether it's you know, drawing, painting, sculpture, you know,

1285
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 6: cooking can be you know, decoration, adornment like so, so

1286
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 6: I think I know that that's a fundamental aspect of

1287
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 6: who we are. And so when people you know, so

1288
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 6: back to kind of that art.

1289
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 5: Is healing thing.

1290
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 6: I've known since I've been a little kid that that's

1291
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 6: the one thing that kind of I can soothe myself

1292
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 6: with or also destroy myself with. But back to the

1293
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 6: the soothing myself with by making stuff, by drawing, and

1294
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:30,880
Speaker 6: I think it's a it's a universal Okay, here's the quote.

1295
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 6: I think, you know, art is a universal, fundamental aspect

1296
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 6: art that makes us human. And so every every single person,

1297
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,959
Speaker 6: like I know that you know in your heart something

1298
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 6: that really fires you up and go for that live music,

1299
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 6: it can be you know, those things, and that's.

1300
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 5: That's a place where where just the static.

1301
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 6: And the anxiety and the depression and the divisiveness falls away.

1302
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 6: And that's that's where you kind we get connected to

1303
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 6: who we are in our environments and other people in

1304
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 6: and what I believe is a core thing like art

1305
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 6: is that thread that connects us, you know, to ourselves,

1306
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 6: to our our environment, to other people. It's just it's

1307
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,960
Speaker 6: the thing that when I came back and when when

1308
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 6: I was just so angry at our country and the

1309
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 6: people that sent us to war, the thing that I

1310
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:24,439
Speaker 6: I had to come up with, why did what?

1311
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 5: Why did I do that?

1312
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 6: It was for the freedom to make our like And

1313
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:31,440
Speaker 6: that's that's the power of where I stand with it

1314
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:33,360
Speaker 6: in my heart of like I know to be true.

1315
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 1: That's a wonderful answer, Jesse. I appreciate you coming on. Man,

1316
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:38,920
Speaker 1: this is really cool with the chat, dude, this is

1317
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 1: this is great.

1318
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 5: Keep up the good work man.

1319
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 1: Thanks for checking out the show, and thanks to Daisy

1320
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 1: and Jesse for jumping on. Daisy's book is Art Cure,

1321
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 1: and you can find Jesse's work on Instagram.

1322
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:52,439
Speaker 4: It's absolutely amazing. Check it out.

1323
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: As always, do not forget to hit subscribe and leave

1324
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 1: us a review. That definitely helps the show and that'll

1325
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 1: help you get those updates. It's right when the episodes drop.

1326
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 1: Check out the iHeart video app if you want to

1327
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 1: watch it on that and as always, half on, don't

1328
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 1: die and make some art Glas