WEBVTT - The Future of Queer Art 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:11.320 A media this is it could happen here on Garrison Davis. 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:15.280 The past few years, we have regularly covered the rise 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.280 of legislation that restricts access to public space and medical 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.520 care for trans people in the United States, as well 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:25.599 as attempts by politicians, lobbying groups, and media personalities to 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:31.000 drum up transphobia in hopes of quote unquote eliminating transgenderism 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:37.040 from our society and culture. The quest to eliminate transgenderism 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:42.599 includes harassment campaigns targeted against specific individuals, boycotting companies that 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:46.600 feature trans people in their marketing, and banning queer books, media, 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:51.120 and art from libraries across the country. The conservative right 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.840 has decided that the boogeyman of gender ideology and the 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.960 woke mind virus is one of the most pressing threats 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:04.679 to Western civilisation. This brand of transphobic militancy opposes any 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.320 form of visible queerness, viewing it as an ideology that 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:13.039 acts as a viral cultural contagion. That's why they spend 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:15.679 so much time trying to ban drag shows and art 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:19.319 featuring queer people. They know they're losing the cultural battle 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.600 and that really scares them. As trans people have been 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.680 trying to weather this huge wave of organized transphobia. Trans 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.040 and queer artists continue to push forward, with multiple hit 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:33.520 films coming out this year from trans directors and transactors 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.480 and actresses are taking more and more high profile roles. 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.960 Last episode, I interviewed comedian Ella Yerman and filmmaker Ver 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:45.399 Drew on the process of creating independent queer media. This 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.000 episode will focus on why we are seeing this new 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.920 wave of queer art, why mere representation isn't enough, and 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:56.440 attempts to go beyond the online media ecosystem. Ellie Yerman 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.880 is the host of Late Stage Lives, a queer gen 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:03.520 Z Public Access late show on Brooklyn Public Access and YouTube. 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.800 The format of late night comedy is almost wholly dominated 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.799 by old white sis straight men. Late Stage Live attempts 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.720 to deconstruct the genre in which it aligns itself with, 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:19.760 utilizing sketches, correspondence, segments, and original reporting, but for a younger, queerer, 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.600 more politically radical audience. The show is not just made 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.960 for gen Z queers. It's also made by an entire 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.080 team of young queer and trans people, which gives it 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.360 a very unique feel compared to literally all of its competition. 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.000 The show itself feels queer and highlights the massive gap 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:42.520 between simple queer representation and queer art, or in this case, 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.639 queer late night comedy. There's a palpable distinction between hiring 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.760 a gay person to work on seth Myers versus having 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:53.240 a late night show that is built on queerness. On 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.079 that note, here's a clip from my interview with Ella Yerman, 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:57.600 host of Late Stage Live. 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.840 There's like a huge difference between like the token queer 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:08.359 writer and like a show that centers queerness and transness. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.080 And I'm really proud of of that. As in terms 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.079 of our show, like, I think that's one of its 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.360 main drives is how queer focused. It is something we 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.480 talk about in every episode, in every piece read loves 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.720 to Hammer This Home is sort of the question of 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.120 why us. It's the first question we ask when anyone 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:31.240 pitches any segment or piece or story of the question 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:33.760 is like, what's the game, what's the perspective? And then 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:36.600 why is it us delivering this perspective? Because anyone can 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.760 write a piece of political analysis, lots of people do, 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.600 but like, what about this story is uniquely coming from us, 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:48.160 uniquely coming from the host, Ella from the Writer's Room, 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:50.720 and I think we found it most strongly in the 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.280 last two pieces, the Lives of TikTok piece, and then 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:55.360 the episode before that, we did a segment on the 0:03:55.400 --> 0:04:01.400 Alliance Defending Freedom, which is a spooky, evil conservative cabal 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.320 that trains lawyers to overturn Scotis cases. And I think 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.320 those both found felt really focused in on sort of 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.080 us as young queer people. And I think the gen 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.560 Z part is also really relevant for us. A lot 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:18.400 of Late Night is hosted by old men, and as 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.200 much as I love John Stewart, he is an old man, 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.160 an old sis, white man, an old sis as far 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.280 as I know, heterosexual white man. 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.520 Who already left the job ten years ago and. 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:31.320 He already left it, right and he's back now. But 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:33.360 like what does that say about anything? 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:33.960 Yeah? 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.159 Yeah, And everyone talking about politics. 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.760 Is like old white guys, and everyone in Congress is 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.360 old white guys or George Santos, and there's like this 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.040 sense of like the world is ending, as you probably 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:50.839 know on this show that bills itself as like amidst 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:52.480 the collapse or whatever your tagline is. 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.240 But like gen Z is so. 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.400 Uniquely affected by political goings on in a way that 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.479 I so this is true of every general, every youngest generation, 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.320 that like all of the decisions are impacting us most, 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:08.960 but it feels more urgent these days because the world 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.560 is ending with climate change and with the encroaching you know, 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.960 global fascism, and with the decay of light stage capitalism, 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.800 that it feels so important now more than ever to 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.160 like center those experiences and look at how the world 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.359 and the news and politics impacts these groups of people. 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.000 And the way we achieve that is, Yeah, we don't 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.440 just have one token queer writer. We are Our room 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:38.200 is all queer, largely trans. About half of our writer's 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.839 room is non white, and as we grow that that 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:44.400 number will either stay the same or get bigger, certainly 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.040 not smaller. Yeah, at the end of the day, I 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:51.000 think the fact that the room is is completely queer 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:56.880 and predominantly trans and non white and all young, it 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:58.920 just like sort of happens. And the fact that it 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:00.880 started that way and been built from the ground up 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.760 that way, I think gives us a huge edge. Even 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:05.960 if the daily shows fired all of their writers and 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:08.000 hired only trans people, I think it would be a 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.080 hard pivot to get the show to suddenly be doing 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.760 what we're doing, just because the whole structure is built differently. 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.039 In Vera Drew's new movie The People's Joker, an autobiographical 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.919 transgender coming of age parody set in the Batman universe, 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.920 the shallowness of queer representation is actually one of the 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.120 core themes of the film. In the movie, the main 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.880 character is not satisfied by simply being a token diversity 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.640 hire for a late night comedy show, and instead hijacks 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.760 the airwaves and charts her own path. This plotline, like 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:45.719 many others, mirrors the director's own life and the movie 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.520 itself is a perfect example of how creating a piece 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.280 of art inherently built on a multimedia experience of queerness 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:57.240 will produce a wildly different result than simply having a 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.599 gay person in the writer's room. Here's a from my 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.960 interview with Vera Drew. It's not even that I feel 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:08.800 like queer representation is like too straight or sis. It's 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:13.440 just not even like an accurate reflection of queer reality. 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.480 You know, like every gay couple I know is nothing 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:18.680 like a straight couple. I mean, some of them are, 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.200 but like those those gay couples always break up like 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.760 it's like they're just they're just in you know, reenacting 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.480 cycles and thousands and thousands of years of patriarchal bullshit 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:31.720 on each other when they could just be having hot 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:34.720 gay sacks with each other. And like that to me 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.480 is like the biggest tragedy of like representation. And it's 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.320 like is also why I think people lash out at 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.120 us so much. Like I on one level, I understand 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:49.360 the idea of like this is getting shoved down our throats, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:53.400 you know, because like it kind of is that's coming 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.119 from a place that I sort of agree with because 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.200 they're getting sold this like propaganda that it's like they're 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.040 just like us, you know, And like to me, it's 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.200 like my experience is so specific to me and in 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.160 so specific to you know, like the experience of a 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.520 trans woman. There are things about my life that are 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.679 similar to that of a sis woman but not certainly 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.160 not identical. So like I never want to see art 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:21.640 that is that. I also, I'm like really over trans 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.520 people being used in a way that they're either I mean, 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:29.040 it doesn't really happen anymore where they're like treated like freaks, 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:34.320 but like it's kind of the tragedy porn or kind 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.960 of pedestalizing us. I guess, like I hate that, like 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:45.120 my identity is inherently political, like just because I this 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.800 is who I am, Like I it's not a pleasant 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.600 situation to deal with. So I think with joker, Yeah, 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.000 I want people joker, I really wanted to talk about 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.959 representation in a way that also just wasn't annoying because 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.680 like I also, it's not even I'm tired of having 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.439 this conversation. It's just sad that people like us keep 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:05.840 even having to have this kind of conversation because like 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:11.360 I've also heard it now within our own community that 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:15.120 like you know, I've heard other trans filmmakers say, like 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.439 we should only be telling happy stories, we should only 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:22.600 be spreading queer joy or what absolutely does no, absolutely not, 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:28.960 Like it's that's embarrassing. Yeah, I want I want to 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.960 spread queer panic. I want to it's not even panic 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:37.720 just like queer existential uh horror. I suppose I don't know. 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:39.960 Well, I mean for me, it's like I don't know, 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.840 like because I've gotten shipped to not I haven't gotten 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.400 a lot. And now honestly that I've started mentioning in 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.040 the press, people have said it to me as much 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:51.480 as good, but like I was getting a little bit 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:55.120 of the like, how oh, making the joker a murderous 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:59.000 trans woman? Okay, you know please, first of all, like 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:03.120 villains are queer coded the history of film. Oh, almost 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.160 all of the Pavan villains are queer coded except completely, 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.800 And like why can't so why can't a why can't 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.160 we do it like not in a subtext way, why 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.440 can't we just do it directly? And then also like 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.200 I live in a country that villainizes trans people, so 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:24.600 like why can't I process that very thing by making 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:26.960 myself a queer villain in a in a movie that 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.679 I made? And and I don't know, it's like I 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.160 think what I hate about the queer joy thing and 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:38.079 the like The People's Joker is like a very funny movie. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:42.360 It's very colorful, it's very campy, but it's also like devastating, 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.960 you know, like it's it's got a very serious message 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.439 to it that I think it brings up a lot 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.760 of emotion in people when they watch it, both sis 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.680 people and trans people, And you know, I think that 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.440 speaks to something else, just like about representation is like 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.520 I told this story that was so specific to my 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:06.520 experience and like trans people are identifying with it and 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.320 relating to it, but so are CIS people, you know, 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:13.000 Like yes, like you know, we should be telling stories 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.720 that portray the trans experience honestly or the queer experience 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:21.600 honestly and specifically. And if we do that, like if 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:25.440 we do that effectively, that is still art that a 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.600 SIS person can consume because SIS people also go through transitions. 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:34.000 SIS people also have to die and be reborn sometimes, 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.440 and like I think just everybody kind of comes of age. 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.640 It's just like trans people and queer people kind of 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.200 have to do it more visibly and publicly and externally 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.280 a lot of the times. And I don't know, for me, 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:48.640 it's like that was like another reason too, of like 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.280 of just being like no, like we're gonna get this 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:55.439 out into theaters and and you know, like make this 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:02.960 kind of theatrical experience for anything else. You know, it 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.840 was always made made to be like viewed I think 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.199 with like a crowd of people like yeah, yeah, kind 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:10.480 of like a midnight movie vibe. 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:12.760 I guess when you think about it, Jesus and the 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:14.760 Joker I do have a lot in common in terms 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.520 of getting baptized, getting bored again it's it's really very 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:19.640 similar characters. 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.480 Absolutely, And I mean that's why, uh, because I think 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.800 this was something while Brie and I were writing the 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.480 movie that she was constantly every step of the way 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:31.760 like what are you doing? Like why are you bringing 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.280 this much like gnostic Christianity to this absolutely? 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:36.480 Uh? 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.600 Like I remember, you know, there's this like French song 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.640 that's in the movie called I'll Be Your Joker that's 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.080 composed and performed by Emily Sloan, and the lyrics to 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:53.480 that are a poem that I wrote that are just 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.600 you never like it's not in anywhere in the movie, 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.200 it's just in that song, but it's like this it's 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.320 the people's joke prophecy, Like I actually wrote it in 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.280 this like kind of Gnostic Bible structure, and then we 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.680 translated it to French and recorded it as a song, 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.360 and like that was like really kind of coming from 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.520 that place of like just really I love I mean, 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.320 I'm obsessed with Jesus, uh, And I kind of just 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.720 always have have been. Like I was raised Catholic and 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.760 I just, uh, I'm not I'm not Christian, but I 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:27.800 have a lot of Jesus stuff around my house, Like 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:32.600 I I'm I'm just obsessed with like the iconography and 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.679 really love it the story itself as like a myth 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.760 and like the mythic understanding of of death and rebirth, 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.760 and and also just thinking of it as like another 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.840 example of like the hero's journey and I don't know, 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:51.640 like it's it's somebody uh asked me at a Q 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.280 and A like basically like how do you have the 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:56.560 balls to like cause by the end of the People's Joker, 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:58.920 like you basically find out it's like cut it is 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.640 like Dune. There's like a weird Messiah story happening, and 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.400 that partially just comes from like I think for me, 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.440 queerness is inherently like a very spiritual experience. It just 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.720 has been for me, and I think a lot of 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.240 trans people actually deal with Messiah complexes. I think it's 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.400 something that I feel safe saying I have. And I 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:25.760 also really wanted to unpack that just idea of the 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:30.520 like Joseph Campbell White Savior Heroes Journey thing. 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:44.600 It could happen here, we'll return after these messages we 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.920 now return to it could happen here. During my interview 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.760 with Vera Drew, she mentioned as something about not just 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.040 wanting to throw the movie up on YouTube when the 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.120 film is dealing with legal issues, resulting in uncertainty around 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.960 how the film would be released. And that got me 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.760 thinking about queer people's relationship to platforms like YouTube as 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.640 the sort of default way of sharing video art. A 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.480 big reason why is simply because the platform is so 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.840 accessible without many of the hurdles and roadblocks of more 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:19.200 traditional distribution models. But sometimes I worry that it's become 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.120 so default that our reliance on YouTube has actually become 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:27.080 a self limiting factor that overdetermines the scope of our 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.440 own art. Let's return to my interview with Vera Dru 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:34.960 to continue this topic. Queer people, specifically trans people have 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.600 kind of been stuck with a lot of their like 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.240 art or video art just becoming this thing that you 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.600 throw up on YouTube. We've done a good job in 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.320 making like a community there, I suppose, but at certain 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:48.680 points it feels very like insular, like we've created this 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.480 little tiny bubble that everything is just trapped inside of 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.360 because obviously we can't rely on like big studios to 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.480 make our own stuff or distribute our own stuff, Like 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.640 that's not happening either. But I feel like we're kind 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.360 of kicking ourselves in the foot if our only artistic 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:09.360 output is like techno music and YouTube video essays, both 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.720 of which can be good, both of which can be art. 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.080 But there's a whole other world out there that I 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.440 feel like we have closed ourselves off from. So I'm 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.440 kind of interested, like like on that choice to like 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:22.480 not put it on YouTube and actually like ride this 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:23.920 thing out as like a movie. 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:29.120 Yeah, I mean that is It's such a relief to 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.480 hear you talk about it in that way, because yeah, 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:35.760 I never want to be dismissive of online creators. Sure. 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.280 Like I worked in TV for ten years as an editor, 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.840 and I was very fortunate to work on a lot 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.600 of really cool shit, like I worked on. My first 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.920 job was I was an intern on The Eric Andre Show, 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.880 and like then my job immediately after that was on 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.560 Nathan for You, So I really got to work with 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:59.680 like all these really amazing comedians, many geniuses, And in 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.800 that process, like always knew I had wanted to make film, 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.160 Like my earliest memories are are wanting to make films. 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.920 Like right around the time I saw Batman Forever, I 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.520 was like, I want to be a director, and I 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:14.760 came up in post production just because like a lot 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.159 of editors end up sort of following you know, a 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.400 lot of editors are really just direct like frustrated directors. 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:23.760 So I was kind of like, here's a place where 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.560 I could like sort of learn my craft. And I've 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.280 always loved experimental animation and visual effects and stuff and 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:35.160 also just like incorporate that as well into like my career. 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:38.800 And it's good. I'm so glad I had it as 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.920 like an incubation period for me to kind of find 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.440 my voice and my aesthetic and and learn a lot 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.840 from these like super talented people. But there was always 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.360 this frustration that I had because when I would take 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.600 stuff out to pitch or anything that was like my 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.920 own story, like you can't really get trans art made 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.119 in any sort of mainstream space. I think that's one 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:05.080 of the things that's most frustrating about the whole like 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.800 woke culture bullshit, just because it's like they act like 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.840 we're some sort of like elite class that's like favored 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.239 by the media, which it's like I can just tell you, 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.879 like that's I'm on my press week right now. Like 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.199 the media is certainly enamored with trans people. But like 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:24.479 I don't think it's like coming from a place of 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.439 like we're trying to change and put everything and you know, 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.919 make these people in charge. It's just uh, you know, 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.520 it's it's click baity and it gets people, it keeps 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:37.480 people arguing online. So it's very hard just to even 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.320 break through as a director too. Like I mean I 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.400 was at that, you know, forget pitching shows that I've 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:48.240 written or whatever, like just trying to get episodic TV work. 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.360 I just couldn't do it, like once I changed my pronouns, 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.760 Like I was literally up for jobs that went away 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.480 after I came out. So I just reached this point 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:02.280 of like I think, maximum frustration and kind of like 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.959 wanted to whatever I did, you know, I don't want 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:07.920 to say like I was ready to walk away from 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.560 like working in the industry in twenty nineteen, but I 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:13.199 kind of was like I was kind of just at 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:14.800 this point where I was like, I need to make 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:19.160 a fucking movie or something on my own and kind 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.040 of just put all I have into that, and that's 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:24.920 going to be the way people will either finally take 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.520 me seriously as a director or like I'll at least 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:29.760 have made a movie and then I can just be 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.560 in debt and I'll have a movie I made. So 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.119 to me, it was always about not necessarily like finally 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.840 being taken seriously by my industry, but just like kind 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.159 of making this giant piece of art that is not 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.199 only like a big like look what I can do, 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:49.080 you know style thing, but like is also just about 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:53.320 all of that, about the frustration of being allowed in 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.280 but only being allowed in in these certain ways, like 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.560 whether it's on like a diversity cast or like, you 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.320 know whatever. Like I was, I worked on the show. 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.159 I can't really talk about it because it's like nda 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.040 stuff and I don't think the show will ever come out. 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.040 But I was in the writer's room on a cartoon 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.879 that was being rebooted, and it was one of my 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.760 favorite cartoons of all time. But I had a day 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:17.280 where I was like just sitting in the writer's room 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.159 and I was like looking around at my coworkers and 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.800 it was I was like, oh, wait a minute, it's 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:26.480 all girls, and I'm I'm a girl, and I'm a 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.920 trans girl. We're all just being brought in to rehabilitate 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.399 this like problematic piece of arc, you know, And it 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:36.080 was like this crazy moment of having like like also 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.720 have had lost jobs because of my identity and now 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:40.399 being in this place where it's like my identity is 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:44.359 like this bargaining chip. So anyway, how does this connect 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.240 to the online art conversation? Like I've always kind of 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:52.000 had to also play in like online spaces. Like I 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.520 started a public access station with my friends a few 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.600 years ago called Highland Park TV. A few years ago. 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.560 I was like ten years ago now, but that's still 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:02.720 going on today. And it was basically just this space 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.320 for us where we could like just record whatever. You know. 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:08.760 We'd meet up one week and come with like some 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.720 pretty simple sketches and shoot it on our public access 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:14.920 set and throw it up online and you know, like 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:17.359 twelve people would watch it and that was it and 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:19.760 that but that was cool, Like you know, you build 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.040 like little followings and communities that way, And I had 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.320 always just wanted to break out of that, you know, 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:32.960 because I think my sensibilities are pretty me and edgy 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:38.360 and weird, but like I'm really kind of a basic bitch. 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:40.479 Like when it goes to the stuff I like, like, 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:44.680 I really like my taste is very college dorm room. 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:47.120 I have a back to the future tattoo. Like, I'm 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:50.320 very influenced by like genre film, and you know, like 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:53.120 I love David Lynch, I love experimental film and stuff too. 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.120 But like I've always like really felt like I could 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:58.720 do it. I could be like just like a genre filmmaker. 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.800 But and we had the controversy at TIFF. I had 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:04.439 a lot of pressure on me to just kind of 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:07.760 put the movie out there, and I could never articulate 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.119 to people why it was important to me to not 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.640 do that and to hold out. It wasn't just like financial, 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:17.440 it really was. I mean, I mean maybe it's ego thing, 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:20.679 but it's it's also just like I've been doing this 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:23.960 long enough to know like the movie was gonna always 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.159 find its audience, but there needed to kind of be 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:29.760 a plan in place so that like I could actually 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.800 put it towards having a career that the career that 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.240 I've wanted my whole life. You know, Like I think 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:37.760 it's ridiculous that we live in a culture now where 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.480 every artist, even the ones like me who have had 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:45.879 a trade in this industry, Like in an industry like that, 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:49.560 we have to really carve our own path in online 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:53.919 spaces or on Twitter or YouTube, or whatever. It just 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:58.159