1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: A media this is it could happen here on Garrison Davis. 2 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: The past few years, we have regularly covered the rise 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: of legislation that restricts access to public space and medical 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: care for trans people in the United States, as well 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: as attempts by politicians, lobbying groups, and media personalities to 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: drum up transphobia in hopes of quote unquote eliminating transgenderism 7 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: from our society and culture. The quest to eliminate transgenderism 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 1: includes harassment campaigns targeted against specific individuals, boycotting companies that 9 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: feature trans people in their marketing, and banning queer books, media, 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: and art from libraries across the country. The conservative right 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: has decided that the boogeyman of gender ideology and the 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: woke mind virus is one of the most pressing threats 13 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: to Western civilisation. This brand of transphobic militancy opposes any 14 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: form of visible queerness, viewing it as an ideology that 15 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: acts as a viral cultural contagion. That's why they spend 16 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: so much time trying to ban drag shows and art 17 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: featuring queer people. They know they're losing the cultural battle 18 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: and that really scares them. As trans people have been 19 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: trying to weather this huge wave of organized transphobia. Trans 20 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: and queer artists continue to push forward, with multiple hit 21 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: films coming out this year from trans directors and transactors 22 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: and actresses are taking more and more high profile roles. 23 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: Last episode, I interviewed comedian Ella Yerman and filmmaker Ver 24 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: Drew on the process of creating independent queer media. This 25 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: episode will focus on why we are seeing this new 26 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: wave of queer art, why mere representation isn't enough, and 27 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: attempts to go beyond the online media ecosystem. Ellie Yerman 28 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: is the host of Late Stage Lives, a queer gen 29 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: Z Public Access late show on Brooklyn Public Access and YouTube. 30 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: The format of late night comedy is almost wholly dominated 31 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: by old white sis straight men. Late Stage Live attempts 32 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: to deconstruct the genre in which it aligns itself with, 33 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: utilizing sketches, correspondence, segments, and original reporting, but for a younger, queerer, 34 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: more politically radical audience. The show is not just made 35 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: for gen Z queers. It's also made by an entire 36 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: team of young queer and trans people, which gives it 37 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: a very unique feel compared to literally all of its competition. 38 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: The show itself feels queer and highlights the massive gap 39 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: between simple queer representation and queer art, or in this case, 40 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 1: queer late night comedy. There's a palpable distinction between hiring 41 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: a gay person to work on seth Myers versus having 42 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: a late night show that is built on queerness. On 43 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: that note, here's a clip from my interview with Ella Yerman, 44 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: host of Late Stage Live. 45 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 2: There's like a huge difference between like the token queer 46 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 2: writer and like a show that centers queerness and transness. 47 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 2: And I'm really proud of of that. As in terms 48 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 2: of our show, like, I think that's one of its 49 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 2: main drives is how queer focused. It is something we 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: talk about in every episode, in every piece read loves 51 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: to Hammer This Home is sort of the question of 52 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 2: why us. It's the first question we ask when anyone 53 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: pitches any segment or piece or story of the question 54 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: is like, what's the game, what's the perspective? And then 55 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: why is it us delivering this perspective? Because anyone can 56 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: write a piece of political analysis, lots of people do, 57 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: but like, what about this story is uniquely coming from us, 58 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 2: uniquely coming from the host, Ella from the Writer's Room, 59 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 2: and I think we found it most strongly in the 60 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: last two pieces, the Lives of TikTok piece, and then 61 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: the episode before that, we did a segment on the 62 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: Alliance Defending Freedom, which is a spooky, evil conservative cabal 63 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: that trains lawyers to overturn Scotis cases. And I think 64 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: those both found felt really focused in on sort of 65 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: us as young queer people. And I think the gen 66 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: Z part is also really relevant for us. A lot 67 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: of Late Night is hosted by old men, and as 68 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: much as I love John Stewart, he is an old man, 69 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: an old sis, white man, an old sis as far 70 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 2: as I know, heterosexual white man. 71 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: Who already left the job ten years ago and. 72 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: He already left it, right and he's back now. But 73 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: like what does that say about anything? 74 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: Yeah? 75 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, And everyone talking about politics. 76 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: Is like old white guys, and everyone in Congress is 77 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 2: old white guys or George Santos, and there's like this 78 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: sense of like the world is ending, as you probably 79 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 2: know on this show that bills itself as like amidst 80 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: the collapse or whatever your tagline is. 81 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 4: But like gen Z is so. 82 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: Uniquely affected by political goings on in a way that 83 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 2: I so this is true of every general, every youngest generation, 84 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: that like all of the decisions are impacting us most, 85 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: but it feels more urgent these days because the world 86 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: is ending with climate change and with the encroaching you know, 87 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: global fascism, and with the decay of light stage capitalism, 88 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: that it feels so important now more than ever to 89 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 2: like center those experiences and look at how the world 90 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 2: and the news and politics impacts these groups of people. 91 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: And the way we achieve that is, Yeah, we don't 92 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: just have one token queer writer. We are Our room 93 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: is all queer, largely trans. About half of our writer's 94 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 2: room is non white, and as we grow that that 95 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: number will either stay the same or get bigger, certainly 96 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 2: not smaller. Yeah, at the end of the day, I 97 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: think the fact that the room is is completely queer 98 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: and predominantly trans and non white and all young, it 99 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: just like sort of happens. And the fact that it 100 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: started that way and been built from the ground up 101 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: that way, I think gives us a huge edge. Even 102 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: if the daily shows fired all of their writers and 103 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: hired only trans people, I think it would be a 104 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: hard pivot to get the show to suddenly be doing 105 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: what we're doing, just because the whole structure is built differently. 106 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: In Vera Drew's new movie The People's Joker, an autobiographical 107 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: transgender coming of age parody set in the Batman universe, 108 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: the shallowness of queer representation is actually one of the 109 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: core themes of the film. In the movie, the main 110 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: character is not satisfied by simply being a token diversity 111 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: hire for a late night comedy show, and instead hijacks 112 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: the airwaves and charts her own path. This plotline, like 113 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: many others, mirrors the director's own life and the movie 114 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: itself is a perfect example of how creating a piece 115 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: of art inherently built on a multimedia experience of queerness 116 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: will produce a wildly different result than simply having a 117 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: gay person in the writer's room. Here's a from my 118 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: interview with Vera Drew. It's not even that I feel 119 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: like queer representation is like too straight or sis. It's 120 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: just not even like an accurate reflection of queer reality. 121 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: You know, like every gay couple I know is nothing 122 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: like a straight couple. I mean, some of them are, 123 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: but like those those gay couples always break up like 124 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: it's like they're just they're just in you know, reenacting 125 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: cycles and thousands and thousands of years of patriarchal bullshit 126 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: on each other when they could just be having hot 127 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: gay sacks with each other. And like that to me 128 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: is like the biggest tragedy of like representation. And it's 129 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: like is also why I think people lash out at 130 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: us so much. Like I on one level, I understand 131 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: the idea of like this is getting shoved down our throats, 132 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, because like it kind of is that's coming 133 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,119 Speaker 1: from a place that I sort of agree with because 134 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: they're getting sold this like propaganda that it's like they're 135 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: just like us, you know, And like to me, it's 136 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: like my experience is so specific to me and in 137 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: so specific to you know, like the experience of a 138 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: trans woman. There are things about my life that are 139 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,679 Speaker 1: similar to that of a sis woman but not certainly 140 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: not identical. So like I never want to see art 141 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: that is that. I also, I'm like really over trans 142 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: people being used in a way that they're either I mean, 143 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't really happen anymore where they're like treated like freaks, 144 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: but like it's kind of the tragedy porn or kind 145 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: of pedestalizing us. I guess, like I hate that, like 146 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: my identity is inherently political, like just because I this 147 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: is who I am, Like I it's not a pleasant 148 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: situation to deal with. So I think with joker, Yeah, 149 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: I want people joker, I really wanted to talk about 150 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: representation in a way that also just wasn't annoying because 151 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: like I also, it's not even I'm tired of having 152 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: this conversation. It's just sad that people like us keep 153 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: even having to have this kind of conversation because like 154 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: I've also heard it now within our own community that 155 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: like you know, I've heard other trans filmmakers say, like 156 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: we should only be telling happy stories, we should only 157 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: be spreading queer joy or what absolutely does no, absolutely not, 158 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: Like it's that's embarrassing. Yeah, I want I want to 159 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: spread queer panic. I want to it's not even panic 160 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: just like queer existential uh horror. I suppose I don't know. 161 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 3: Well, I mean for me, it's like I don't know, 162 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 3: like because I've gotten shipped to not I haven't gotten 163 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 3: a lot. And now honestly that I've started mentioning in 164 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: the press, people have said it to me as much 165 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 3: as good, but like I was getting a little bit 166 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: of the like, how oh, making the joker a murderous 167 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 3: trans woman? Okay, you know please, first of all, like 168 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 3: villains are queer coded the history of film. Oh, almost 169 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: all of the Pavan villains are queer coded except completely, 170 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 3: And like why can't so why can't a why can't 171 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 3: we do it like not in a subtext way, why 172 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 3: can't we just do it directly? And then also like 173 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 3: I live in a country that villainizes trans people, so 174 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 3: like why can't I process that very thing by making 175 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 3: myself a queer villain in a in a movie that 176 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 3: I made? And and I don't know, it's like I 177 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 3: think what I hate about the queer joy thing and 178 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 3: the like The People's Joker is like a very funny movie. 179 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: It's very colorful, it's very campy, but it's also like devastating, 180 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 3: you know, like it's it's got a very serious message 181 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 3: to it that I think it brings up a lot 182 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 3: of emotion in people when they watch it, both sis 183 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 3: people and trans people, And you know, I think that 184 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 3: speaks to something else, just like about representation is like 185 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 3: I told this story that was so specific to my 186 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 3: experience and like trans people are identifying with it and 187 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 3: relating to it, but so are CIS people, you know, 188 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 3: Like yes, like you know, we should be telling stories 189 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 3: that portray the trans experience honestly or the queer experience 190 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 3: honestly and specifically. And if we do that, like if 191 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 3: we do that effectively, that is still art that a 192 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 3: SIS person can consume because SIS people also go through transitions. 193 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 3: SIS people also have to die and be reborn sometimes, 194 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 3: and like I think just everybody kind of comes of age. 195 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 3: It's just like trans people and queer people kind of 196 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 3: have to do it more visibly and publicly and externally 197 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 3: a lot of the times. And I don't know, for me, 198 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: it's like that was like another reason too, of like 199 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 3: of just being like no, like we're gonna get this 200 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 3: out into theaters and and you know, like make this 201 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 3: kind of theatrical experience for anything else. You know, it 202 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 3: was always made made to be like viewed I think 203 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 3: with like a crowd of people like yeah, yeah, kind 204 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 3: of like a midnight movie vibe. 205 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: I guess when you think about it, Jesus and the 206 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: Joker I do have a lot in common in terms 207 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: of getting baptized, getting bored again it's it's really very 208 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: similar characters. 209 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I mean that's why, uh, because I think 210 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 3: this was something while Brie and I were writing the 211 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: movie that she was constantly every step of the way 212 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 3: like what are you doing? Like why are you bringing 213 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: this much like gnostic Christianity to this absolutely? 214 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: Uh? 215 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 3: Like I remember, you know, there's this like French song 216 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 3: that's in the movie called I'll Be Your Joker that's 217 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 3: composed and performed by Emily Sloan, and the lyrics to 218 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 3: that are a poem that I wrote that are just 219 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 3: you never like it's not in anywhere in the movie, 220 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 3: it's just in that song, but it's like this it's 221 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 3: the people's joke prophecy, Like I actually wrote it in 222 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 3: this like kind of Gnostic Bible structure, and then we 223 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 3: translated it to French and recorded it as a song, 224 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: and like that was like really kind of coming from 225 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 3: that place of like just really I love I mean, 226 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 3: I'm obsessed with Jesus, uh, And I kind of just 227 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: always have have been. Like I was raised Catholic and 228 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 3: I just, uh, I'm not I'm not Christian, but I 229 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 3: have a lot of Jesus stuff around my house, Like 230 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 3: I I'm I'm just obsessed with like the iconography and 231 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 3: really love it the story itself as like a myth 232 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 3: and like the mythic understanding of of death and rebirth, 233 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 3: and and also just thinking of it as like another 234 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 3: example of like the hero's journey and I don't know, 235 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: like it's it's somebody uh asked me at a Q 236 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 3: and A like basically like how do you have the 237 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 3: balls to like cause by the end of the People's Joker, 238 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 3: like you basically find out it's like cut it is 239 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 3: like Dune. There's like a weird Messiah story happening, and 240 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 3: that partially just comes from like I think for me, 241 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 3: queerness is inherently like a very spiritual experience. It just 242 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 3: has been for me, and I think a lot of 243 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: trans people actually deal with Messiah complexes. I think it's 244 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 3: something that I feel safe saying I have. And I 245 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 3: also really wanted to unpack that just idea of the 246 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: like Joseph Campbell White Savior Heroes Journey thing. 247 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: It could happen here, we'll return after these messages we 248 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: now return to it could happen here. During my interview 249 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: with Vera Drew, she mentioned as something about not just 250 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: wanting to throw the movie up on YouTube when the 251 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: film is dealing with legal issues, resulting in uncertainty around 252 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: how the film would be released. And that got me 253 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: thinking about queer people's relationship to platforms like YouTube as 254 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: the sort of default way of sharing video art. A 255 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: big reason why is simply because the platform is so 256 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: accessible without many of the hurdles and roadblocks of more 257 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: traditional distribution models. But sometimes I worry that it's become 258 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: so default that our reliance on YouTube has actually become 259 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: a self limiting factor that overdetermines the scope of our 260 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: own art. Let's return to my interview with Vera Dru 261 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: to continue this topic. Queer people, specifically trans people have 262 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: kind of been stuck with a lot of their like 263 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: art or video art just becoming this thing that you 264 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: throw up on YouTube. We've done a good job in 265 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: making like a community there, I suppose, but at certain 266 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: points it feels very like insular, like we've created this 267 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: little tiny bubble that everything is just trapped inside of 268 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: because obviously we can't rely on like big studios to 269 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: make our own stuff or distribute our own stuff, Like 270 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: that's not happening either. But I feel like we're kind 271 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: of kicking ourselves in the foot if our only artistic 272 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: output is like techno music and YouTube video essays, both 273 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: of which can be good, both of which can be art. 274 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: But there's a whole other world out there that I 275 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: feel like we have closed ourselves off from. So I'm 276 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: kind of interested, like like on that choice to like 277 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: not put it on YouTube and actually like ride this 278 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: thing out as like a movie. 279 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that is It's such a relief to 280 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 3: hear you talk about it in that way, because yeah, 281 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 3: I never want to be dismissive of online creators. Sure. 282 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 3: Like I worked in TV for ten years as an editor, 283 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 3: and I was very fortunate to work on a lot 284 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 3: of really cool shit, like I worked on. My first 285 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: job was I was an intern on The Eric Andre Show, 286 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 3: and like then my job immediately after that was on 287 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 3: Nathan for You, So I really got to work with 288 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 3: like all these really amazing comedians, many geniuses, And in 289 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 3: that process, like always knew I had wanted to make film, 290 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 3: Like my earliest memories are are wanting to make films. 291 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 3: Like right around the time I saw Batman Forever, I 292 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: was like, I want to be a director, and I 293 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: came up in post production just because like a lot 294 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 3: of editors end up sort of following you know, a 295 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 3: lot of editors are really just direct like frustrated directors. 296 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 3: So I was kind of like, here's a place where 297 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 3: I could like sort of learn my craft. And I've 298 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 3: always loved experimental animation and visual effects and stuff and 299 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 3: also just like incorporate that as well into like my career. 300 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 3: And it's good. I'm so glad I had it as 301 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 3: like an incubation period for me to kind of find 302 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 3: my voice and my aesthetic and and learn a lot 303 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 3: from these like super talented people. But there was always 304 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 3: this frustration that I had because when I would take 305 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 3: stuff out to pitch or anything that was like my 306 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 3: own story, like you can't really get trans art made 307 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 3: in any sort of mainstream space. I think that's one 308 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 3: of the things that's most frustrating about the whole like 309 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 3: woke culture bullshit, just because it's like they act like 310 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 3: we're some sort of like elite class that's like favored 311 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,239 Speaker 3: by the media, which it's like I can just tell you, 312 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 3: like that's I'm on my press week right now. Like 313 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 3: the media is certainly enamored with trans people. But like 314 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 3: I don't think it's like coming from a place of 315 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 3: like we're trying to change and put everything and you know, 316 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 3: make these people in charge. It's just uh, you know, 317 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 3: it's it's click baity and it gets people, it keeps 318 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 3: people arguing online. So it's very hard just to even 319 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: break through as a director too. Like I mean I 320 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 3: was at that, you know, forget pitching shows that I've 321 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 3: written or whatever, like just trying to get episodic TV work. 322 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 3: I just couldn't do it, like once I changed my pronouns, 323 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: Like I was literally up for jobs that went away 324 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 3: after I came out. So I just reached this point 325 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 3: of like I think, maximum frustration and kind of like 326 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 3: wanted to whatever I did, you know, I don't want 327 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 3: to say like I was ready to walk away from 328 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 3: like working in the industry in twenty nineteen, but I 329 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 3: kind of was like I was kind of just at 330 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 3: this point where I was like, I need to make 331 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 3: a fucking movie or something on my own and kind 332 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 3: of just put all I have into that, and that's 333 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 3: going to be the way people will either finally take 334 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 3: me seriously as a director or like I'll at least 335 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 3: have made a movie and then I can just be 336 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 3: in debt and I'll have a movie I made. So 337 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 3: to me, it was always about not necessarily like finally 338 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 3: being taken seriously by my industry, but just like kind 339 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 3: of making this giant piece of art that is not 340 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 3: only like a big like look what I can do, 341 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 3: you know style thing, but like is also just about 342 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 3: all of that, about the frustration of being allowed in 343 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 3: but only being allowed in in these certain ways, like 344 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 3: whether it's on like a diversity cast or like, you 345 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: know whatever. Like I was, I worked on the show. 346 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 3: I can't really talk about it because it's like nda 347 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 3: stuff and I don't think the show will ever come out. 348 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 3: But I was in the writer's room on a cartoon 349 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 3: that was being rebooted, and it was one of my 350 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 3: favorite cartoons of all time. But I had a day 351 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 3: where I was like just sitting in the writer's room 352 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 3: and I was like looking around at my coworkers and 353 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 3: it was I was like, oh, wait a minute, it's 354 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 3: all girls, and I'm I'm a girl, and I'm a 355 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 3: trans girl. We're all just being brought in to rehabilitate 356 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 3: this like problematic piece of arc, you know, And it 357 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 3: was like this crazy moment of having like like also 358 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 3: have had lost jobs because of my identity and now 359 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 3: being in this place where it's like my identity is 360 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 3: like this bargaining chip. So anyway, how does this connect 361 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 3: to the online art conversation? Like I've always kind of 362 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 3: had to also play in like online spaces. Like I 363 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 3: started a public access station with my friends a few 364 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 3: years ago called Highland Park TV. A few years ago. 365 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 3: I was like ten years ago now, but that's still 366 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 3: going on today. And it was basically just this space 367 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 3: for us where we could like just record whatever. You know. 368 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 3: We'd meet up one week and come with like some 369 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: pretty simple sketches and shoot it on our public access 370 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 3: set and throw it up online and you know, like 371 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 3: twelve people would watch it and that was it and 372 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 3: that but that was cool, Like you know, you build 373 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 3: like little followings and communities that way, And I had 374 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: always just wanted to break out of that, you know, 375 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 3: because I think my sensibilities are pretty me and edgy 376 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 3: and weird, but like I'm really kind of a basic bitch. 377 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,479 Speaker 3: Like when it goes to the stuff I like, like, 378 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 3: I really like my taste is very college dorm room. 379 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 3: I have a back to the future tattoo. Like, I'm 380 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 3: very influenced by like genre film, and you know, like 381 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 3: I love David Lynch, I love experimental film and stuff too. 382 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 3: But like I've always like really felt like I could 383 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 3: do it. I could be like just like a genre filmmaker. 384 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 3: But and we had the controversy at TIFF. I had 385 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 3: a lot of pressure on me to just kind of 386 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 3: put the movie out there, and I could never articulate 387 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 3: to people why it was important to me to not 388 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 3: do that and to hold out. It wasn't just like financial, 389 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 3: it really was. I mean, I mean maybe it's ego thing, 390 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 3: but it's it's also just like I've been doing this 391 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 3: long enough to know like the movie was gonna always 392 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 3: find its audience, but there needed to kind of be 393 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: a plan in place so that like I could actually 394 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 3: put it towards having a career that the career that 395 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 3: I've wanted my whole life. You know, Like I think 396 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 3: it's ridiculous that we live in a culture now where 397 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 3: every artist, even the ones like me who have had 398 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 3: a trade in this industry, Like in an industry like that, 399 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 3: we have to really carve our own path in online 400 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 3: spaces or on Twitter or YouTube, or whatever. It just 401 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 3: keeps us all in cycles of poverty. It like, like, 402 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 3: I fucking hate posting to Twitter. I do it still 403 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 3: just because it's the easiest way to get the word out, 404 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 3: But every single time I send a tweet, I'm like, 405 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,959 Speaker 3: this sucks. Like I'm supporting one of the worst people 406 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 3: alive right now just by still using this site, somebody 407 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 3: who hates me and people like me so much that 408 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 3: he literally won't talk to his own child. Yeah. Like, 409 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 3: I really just wanted to kick the door down for 410 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 3: myself and hopefully for some people that come after me. 411 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 3: And you know, I really don't want to be the 412 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 3: type of filmmaker and the type of queer filmmaker who 413 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 3: like holds the ladder up behind them. Like it's not 414 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 3: even that I have integrity, it's just that like this 415 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 3: movie is that to me, this movie is such like 416 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 3: it's a gospel on how we need to be making 417 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 3: art more ethically and more for ourselves and from a 418 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 3: place of care. And yeah, that's just I want to 419 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 3: hopefully change my little corner of the industry as much 420 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 3: as I can toward that. 421 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it definitely feels like we're getting more and 422 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: more people are embracing this idea of independent queer cinema, 423 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: and more people are are deciding, instead of putting whatever 424 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: short film they want on YouTube, try to do a 425 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: festival circuit. 426 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 4: And it's that. 427 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: Was one of the things that I think I really 428 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: respected after what happened at TIFF. What I really respected 429 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: at your insistence to like, no, like we're going to 430 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: find a distributor, Like we're We're not just going to 431 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: throw it up online and call it a day. It's 432 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: not just going to be like a fan film. It's like, 433 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: this is an actual, like expressive piece that we're gonna 434 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: It might mean that you won't see it for another 435 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: two years, but it shows like a level of like 436 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: actual artistic commitment that I found gave gave the project 437 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: a real sense of. 438 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 3: Like, wait, oh, thank you. 439 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: The notion of this comfortable YouTube bubble we've created is 440 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: perhaps why I find the public access TV side of 441 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: Ella Yeerman's Late Stage Live so compelling. A lot of 442 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: queer people around my age grew up with the transgender 443 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: video essay as the primary form of our artistic video output, 444 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of good video essays out there, 445 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: but at a certain point it started to feel like 446 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: the main way a young, radical queer person could engage 447 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: with the art form. It's gotten to feel so insular 448 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: and a bit restrictive, like we're enforcing our own bubble. 449 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: On top of this self limiting aspect, I'm not even 450 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: sure how much growth the format even has Anymore. Recently, 451 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: I've begun to see more queer artists specifically trying to 452 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: make things outside the strict video essay framework. Even some 453 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: of the most popular trans video essay creators have been 454 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: trying to move into documentary and narrative filmmaking. I asked 455 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: Ella about moving beyond the video essay bubble because although 456 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: Late Stage Live does it air on YouTube as well 457 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: as Brooklyn Public Access, the format is not just your 458 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: average transgender video essay. 459 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 2: We don't have any pink lighting at all. Yeah, it's 460 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,959 Speaker 2: definitely something I've been thinking about a lot, both like 461 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: in my own personal career and for the show. A 462 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 2: lot of my bylines in the last few years are 463 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: all YouTube based, with Late Stage and some more news, 464 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: and it's frustrating that even as YouTube is seen so 465 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 2: much growth and like celebrities come from YouTube all the time, 466 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 2: and some of the biggest names in the world are 467 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: Internet stars now, there's still like the sense of illegitimacy 468 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 2: to be doing a project on YouTube, and like, like 469 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: when I try and get published in like more legitimate 470 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 2: journalism magazines every so often, I'm always looking at my 471 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 2: resume and being like, I wish I had like a 472 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: byline in a magazine instead of three years of writing 473 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: for a YouTube show that I love so much and 474 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: think is doing better works than most of these magazines, 475 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: but like that I know won't get treated the same. 476 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 2: So there's definitely an aspect to that that I think. Yeah, 477 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 2: like it's partly YouTube is so accessible anyone can post 478 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: on YouTube that I understand why queer people have sort 479 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 2: of relegated themselves to this bubble. Trans people wrote like 480 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 2: why we've ended up with like you know, the trans 481 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 2: video essay scene, Thank you Mother Natalie. But it makes 482 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 2: it hard to sort of break into this like final 483 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: frontier of legitimacy, I think, and I think by like, yeah, 484 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: like not fully committing ourselves to being a YouTube show 485 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 2: from the get go, we do sort of leave doors 486 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 2: open to be considered like a more legitimate television production, 487 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 2: which is exciting for like growth opportunities. I think the 488 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: live studio audience also really pushes us out of that zone. 489 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,479 Speaker 2: We get a lot of accusations from people who are 490 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: mean on the Internet of using a laugh track, and 491 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 2: I just want to say, and I will say it 492 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 2: till the day I die. 493 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 4: It would be so much easier if we were. 494 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: I could totally tell when there's gay people laughing the 495 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: background versus a laugh track. It's a very clear difference. 496 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it would be so easy if I was just 497 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: plugging that in in post. 498 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 4: But no. 499 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: We bring in thirty thirty five Gaze every month just 500 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 2: to laugh at my jokes, and sometimes they don't. 501 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 4: And you can see that too when they don't laugh 502 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:50,360 Speaker 4: at my jokes. 503 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 2: But I think that is something I was really excited 504 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: to do that is different from a lot of the 505 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,719 Speaker 2: other video essay sphere because it also brings in aspects 506 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 2: of live performance that I love as a up and 507 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 2: as a theater artist, and also like, yeah, just pulls 508 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: it into like a slightly different genre of thing that 509 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 2: we're making. And I think certainly in terms of like 510 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: growth and audience building and like the potential of being 511 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 2: picked up by some larger organization. It definitely puts us 512 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: in like a different It makes us look slightly different 513 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: than like a YouTube show, even if we can all 514 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: like sort of quietly acknowledge, like, well, what all of 515 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 2: our growth is happening on YouTube and Instagram? 516 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 4: But like, as you said, like Real Late Night. 517 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,239 Speaker 2: Is huge on YouTube now too, And there's all these 518 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 2: other extra correlating factors of like monetization on YouTube sort 519 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: of died a few years ago after the ad apocalypse 520 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: or whatever, and so you have to go through crowdfunding 521 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 2: sources like Patreon or sponsorships or x other white Like 522 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: there's not like you. 523 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: Can't Nebula or whatever. Right, new streeting service for YouTube 524 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: pops up. 525 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, you can't just rely on ad sense anymore. 526 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: And that's frustrating in its own degree. But I think 527 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: even beyond that, Yeah, like not relegating ourselves to being 528 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: a YouTube show, both thematically and like concretely in terms 529 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: of content and form, is like really exciting. And I 530 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: think like, even as we grow and gain a budget 531 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 2: and are able to buy nicer cameras, we want to 532 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: like keep the aesthetics and vibe of like Edgy Radical 533 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: public Access because it's like a part of the voice 534 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 2: of the show, along with sort of the practicalities. 535 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, having background ketamine jokes, I think really is right. 536 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: It sets you apart the quote unquote. 537 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 2: VHS cleaner that sits on the desk every episode. I 538 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 2: don't own a VHS. 539 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: We will return to. It could happen here after these 540 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: messages we now return to. It could happen here. To me, 541 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: the most exciting thing about the idea of a new 542 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: wave of independent trans cinema is that we'll get to 543 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: see a whole bunch of trans films that otherwise would 544 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: never get made by the big studios. After trans filmmaker 545 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,479 Speaker 1: Jane Shanbron's successful festival run of her small scale future 546 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: debut titled We're All Going to the World's Fair back 547 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, her next film, called I Saw 548 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: the TV Glow, got picked up by m Stone's production 549 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: company and a twenty four The film is now coming 550 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: out later this month. In the case of The People's Joker, 551 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: it dares to take Warner Brothers and Disney at their 552 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: word that their privately owned intellectual property is in fact 553 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: our culture's version of mythology, our very own Greek gods, 554 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: and so if these characters really are the cultural icons 555 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: that the monopolized companies who own them claim them to be. 556 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,959 Speaker 1: What happens when we actually do treat them like mythology 557 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: and use these characters to artistically mythologize our own lives. 558 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: By skillfully sidestepping copyright law via effective legal parody, we 559 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: get to have a Batman film through the lens of 560 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: transgender chaos magic, which I'm afraid would simply never happen 561 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: under Warner Brothers Discovery, as they can't even stop deleting 562 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: their own finished films to get tax right offs. A 563 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: few weeks ago, I showed my it could happen here 564 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: co host Mia Wong the People's Joker, and afterwards we 565 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: talked about what makes it feel so special and it's 566 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: placed within the pantheon of queer cinema. 567 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 5: One of my dear friends, Vicky Osterweil, is writing a 568 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 5: book called The Extended Universe about sort of copyright law 569 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 5: and what it's done to film, and specifically focusing on 570 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 5: on Disney and the thing that's different about The People's Joker. Right, 571 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 5: if if you want to know why the People's Joker is, 572 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 5: you know why specifically you couldn't make this, it's it's 573 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 5: partially because it's trans and it's partially because it's actually 574 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 5: a movie. Yeah, because and then this is this is 575 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 5: this is this is Vicky's argument, you know, and this 576 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 5: is this is the hidden truth about the film industry 577 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 5: is that movies are not designed to sell movies. 578 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: No, they're to send copyright. 579 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: No. 580 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 5: No, it's it's worse than that. Like, a superhero movie 581 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 5: does not make money on the movie, right, the movie 582 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 5: theater is not making money on the movie. Movie theater 583 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 5: is making money on food the company itself. That's not 584 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 5: where the money comes from. The money comes from toy sales, yeah, 585 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 5: and sales of stuff afterwards. Right, So what you're actually 586 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,239 Speaker 5: seeing when you're seeing a superhero movie is just an 587 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 5: ad and this is yeah, and this is part of 588 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 5: what the people's joker is that makes it different, right, 589 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 5: And you know, and it's because like specifically, because it 590 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 5: is trans and because of the way that is transit 591 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 5: makes it impossible for its being made by corporation, and 592 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 5: because trans people fought to make it, it gets to 593 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 5: be an actual movie and not a fucking toy sales thing. 594 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, because they're not going to be making a toy 595 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: of mustache pedophile batman. 596 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 5: Yeah. Right, and this is incredibly important for the genre 597 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 5: of film, because you know, I mean, there is a 598 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 5: world that is not too far off where we are 599 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 5: the last people making actual fucking films and not advertisements. 600 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 601 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 5: To use this sort of like only semi ironically, using 602 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 5: this sort of lofty, like Marxist language is like, yeah, 603 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 5: like we kind of also have been given the historical 604 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 5: task of safe film from its complete annihilation by these 605 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 5: fucking capitalist copyright ghouls. 606 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to see. It's a joy to see. 607 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: I think I was reading an interesting article recently that 608 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: talked about how trans media's orientation has been very referential. 609 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: It's been very much based on experiences that trans people 610 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: have as kids engaging with media, whether that's with something 611 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: like Buffy the Vampires Layer, whether that's with DC comics, 612 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: And it's because transness is so much about recontextualizing your 613 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: whole life and identity. A lot of trans media has 614 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: also been about this form of recontextualization, both with I 615 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: think The People's Joker is a great example, also the 616 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: upcoming film I saw The TV Glow, which is very 617 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: much based on like Buffy and other and other kind 618 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: of like Monster of the Week title TV shows. It's 619 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: combining all of that kind of stuff with a lot 620 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: of lynching influences, both in these cases, both in The 621 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: People's Joker and in I saw the TV glow to 622 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: create this like dream of self identity in this referential format, 623 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: and that's been an interesting trend to watch in trans cinema, 624 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: and I think that's that's something that's something to look 625 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,760 Speaker 1: I think that's something to look for when you're engaging 626 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: with future trans cinema projects, seeing if those kind of 627 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: things pop up, and if and if they don't, why 628 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: is that what else is actually happening instead? I think 629 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 1: those are gonna be some interesting interesting ways to uh 630 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: engage with our own diy art in the next decade here. 631 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: Because as much as like everything we talk about is 632 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: so like depressing, like on this show, like about how 633 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: everything dealing with like trends stuff is about how everyone's 634 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: trying to like kill us and restrict our medical care, 635 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: that does not actually stop us from becoming people who 636 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: actually engage with culture in any real sense. I think 637 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: despite everything that's targeted against trans people, it does not 638 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: stop us from actually having a cultural output. And the 639 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: thing a lot of conservatives are afraid of is our 640 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: cultural output. The fact that trans people keep being actually 641 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: really compelling artists and really compelling people in general makes 642 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: conservative service. I don't think it's impossible for conservatives to 643 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: make art. I think there is conservative art that actually 644 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 1: can be seen as like okay art. But they certainly 645 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,439 Speaker 1: are afraid at how good trans people are at making 646 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: music and now making movies. When I was talking with me, 647 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: she brought up a good point that all paraphrase here. 648 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: Part of why we're seeing this new wave of independent 649 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: transcinema is the result of a combination of two things. 650 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: One is that trans and queer artists have been and 651 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: continue to be chewed up and spat out by the 652 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: traditional media machine, and two, the traditional media machine itself 653 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: is slowly rotting from the inside, which can be a 654 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: tricky situation to navigate for a lot of queer artists. 655 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 1: But simultaneously, it also means that we're in this position, 656 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: we're having been spat out. We have full rain to 657 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: go make our own, massive, grotesque, degenerate queer art on 658 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: our own, because there simply is no artistic alternative. Trans 659 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: people need to be submitting to film festivals regardless of 660 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: whether or not CIS viewers and critics will understand the work. 661 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: Filmmaking is one of those art forms that you can't 662 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: really do all by yourself, but that doesn't need to 663 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: be a limitation. That can be an asset. Gay people 664 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: are good at a lot of different things, and filmmaking 665 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,439 Speaker 1: integrates so many different artistic areas and skills, and as 666 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 1: we've seen, a movie made by a community of queers 667 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: can create such a unique result. When talking with Vera Drew, 668 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: she mentioned that having a whole team of artists help 669 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: her complete the movie is also in part what ensured 670 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: that she would find a way for the film to 671 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: be distributed the right way so that it's seen up 672 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: on the big screen and not just published online for free. 673 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 3: You know. That was another thing that really kind of 674 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 3: kept me from doing anything irrational with the film, like 675 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 3: posting it on Google Drive with contribution to a donation 676 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 3: link or whatever. It was like like I have all 677 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 3: these artists that just worked on this movie with me 678 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 3: for two and a half years, and like, no, we're 679 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 3: gonna fucking do this. Like I said I would do this, 680 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 3: and I'm gonna do this cause like I can't just 681 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 3: like feed this back into the incubator and the fucking 682 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 3: feedback loop of trans Twitter and like cool underground circles 683 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 3: that I totally love to be a part of, but 684 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 3: we're all trying to, you know, get more visibility outside 685 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,800 Speaker 3: of those things. So yeah, I always really just wanted 686 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 3: to honor that, honor the team and make everybody feel valued. 687 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 3: And you know, I paid as many people as I could, 688 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,240 Speaker 3: and you know, was very straightforward about what I could afford, 689 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 3: and a lot of people worked in ways that they 690 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 3: just felt compensated and that was very appreciated. You know, 691 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 3: I think in general, like everybody on this was very underpaid. 692 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 3: But like it was such a labor of love and 693 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 3: such like a a personal thing for all of us 694 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 3: that everybody just like showed up and and really rallied 695 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 3: around each other and really just kept saying yes and 696 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 3: to everything, and it's so cool. I don't I don't 697 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 3: know how I'll ever really be able to replicate. I 698 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 3: don't think I should either, just because it's it was. 699 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 3: It was quite a gargantuan task, but you know, it 700 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 3: was it was literally the best time of my life, 701 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 3: was was making this movie. Like I think it really 702 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 3: it taught me just how to be a human being 703 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 3: and how to love and how to like finally feel 704 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 3: connected to my to my queer community, because I think 705 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 3: like The People's Jokers really more than anything, it's really 706 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 3: about nuance and like relationships and family and uh politics, 707 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 3: And it talks about nuance by really leaning into these 708 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 3: like extremes, which I think just is also inherently queer, 709 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 3: and I don't know, I mean that to me is 710 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 3: like another thing. It's just like I I hope and 711 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 3: there there's there's a lot of trans filmmakers that are 712 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 3: like starting to pop up in the genre space, but 713 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 3: like I hope, I hope we more of it, just 714 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,399 Speaker 3: because like we all grew up on the same movies 715 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 3: that SIS people did, So like why can't we make 716 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 3: similar art, you know, and tell our stories in the 717 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 3: process and also do it in a way that's like 718 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 3: not hiding in the shadows. 719 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: The People's Joker is slowly ending its US theatrical run, 720 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: but you can still look for tickets and show times 721 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: at the People's Joker dot com, and you can find 722 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: Vera Drew online at Vera Drew twenty two Late Stage 723 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: Live just released their sixth episode, and I'm really excited 724 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: to see how the show will grow and evolve over time. 725 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: And we've actually recently hit an inflection point with the 726 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 2: show where like the sort of organic, haphazard growth is 727 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 2: no longer sustainable for us. We've been having a lot 728 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 2: of really exciting and scary conversations behind the scenes about 729 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 2: like formalizing our production process and kicking our shit up 730 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 2: a notch so that we have the potential to make 731 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 2: this bigger and better and more polished. But it is 732 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 2: at its core still like a production born out of 733 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 2: community and like mutual respect. Yeerman. You can find me 734 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: on Instagram at La dot Yeerman, on x dot com 735 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 2: at Ella Yeerman. I think I'm on Blue Sky also, 736 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 2: though I don't do anything there. You can find Late 737 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 2: Stage Live as Late Sailers Live on all platforms. That's Instagram, 738 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 2: x YouTube, TikTok probably also Blue Sky, but those are 739 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 2: the big ones. And then if you're interested in finding 740 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,760 Speaker 2: my stand up show, we're at T four T Comedy 741 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 2: on Instagram and x oh. And then most specifically, if 742 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 2: you're interested in helping fun Blade Stage and make us 743 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 2: bigger and better and shinier, you can go to Patreon 744 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 2: dot com slash Late Stage Live, where we post Yeah, 745 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 2: we have a behind the scenes photos and videos, and 746 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 2: we make a semi frequent podcast where my head writer 747 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 2: and I talk about the news and shoot the shit 748 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 2: and talk about the process and a lot more detail 749 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,439 Speaker 2: episode by episode. And we're so grateful for our current 750 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 2: patrons and for opportunities like this, and we're excited to 751 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 2: see where the show. 752 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,280 Speaker 1: Goes that doesn't for us at It could Happen here. 753 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed my Transformers and Gi Joe ad 754 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: break references, and if not, you can send any complaints 755 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,479 Speaker 1: to the President of Columbia University. Solidarity to everyone across 756 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: the country who's been out the past few weeks. See 757 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: you on the other side. It could Happen here as 758 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. 759 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 760 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 3: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 761 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,959 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 762 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 763 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 1: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. 764 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.