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Speaker 1: M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a

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Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me for session the Therapy for

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Speaker 1: Black Girls Podcast. We haven't had one of these in

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Speaker 1: a while, but this week we're back with an on

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Speaker 1: the Couch episode with Malcolm and Marie. Malcolm and Marie

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Speaker 1: is of course a new movie on Netflix Featurings in

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Speaker 1: Daia and John David Washington, and joining me to break

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Speaker 1: down all of the many layers you can find in

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Speaker 1: the film is none other than Couples Therapists. Dr Ayanna Abrams.

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Speaker 1: Dr Abrams is a licensed clinical psychologist in Georgia, CEO

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Speaker 1: and founder of Ascension Behavioral Health and co founder of

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Speaker 1: Not So Strong and Initiatives to improve the mental health

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Speaker 1: and relationship functioning of Black women through the use of

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Speaker 1: vulnerable storytelling. Her specialties include racism based trauma, anxiety, depression

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Speaker 1: and other mood disorders, entrepreneur mental health and relationship, and

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Speaker 1: marital counseling. She has extensive clinical experience working with people

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Speaker 1: of color, specifically black women, black men, and black couples.

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Speaker 1: Dr Abrams and I chatted about the dynamics present between

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Speaker 1: Malcolm Emory, things we noticed while watching the movie, what

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Speaker 1: it might look like from Malcolm Emory to go to

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Speaker 1: couples therapy after the evening we see in the film,

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Speaker 1: and the kinds of things she might discuss with Marie

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Speaker 1: if she came to therapy individually. This episode does contain spoilers.

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Speaker 1: I know that many of you had strong feelings about

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Speaker 1: the movie too, so please share your reactions with us

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Speaker 1: using the hashtag tpg in session. Here's our conversation. So

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Speaker 1: that's just dive in before we like get too far

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Speaker 1: into it and not actually start with the questions. So

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Speaker 1: we both have watched it twice, right, I've only watched

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Speaker 1: it twice and watching more than twice, Okay, I couldn't

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Speaker 1: take it twice in the limit. Yes, Well, what did

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Speaker 1: you expect when you kind of saw the movie premiering.

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Speaker 1: I definitely did not expect a two hour fight, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't actually expect there to be a fight. But

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Speaker 1: I didn't know much about it. I didn't read much

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Speaker 1: about it. I really wanted to go in not knowing

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Speaker 1: too much. And what I had heard mostly about the

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Speaker 1: movie was paying attention to the chemistry between the main characters,

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Speaker 1: so I wasn't even thinking about what was actually happening

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Speaker 1: between them. All I heard about was this age gap,

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Speaker 1: age gap, age gap doesn't work for them. I was like,

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Speaker 1: they look good, So that's all I was really thinking about.

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Speaker 1: And then just a few minutes into the movie, I

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Speaker 1: was like, Oh, what's how are we gonna do this night?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. And then I also

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Speaker 1: didn't expect it to be a whole conversation like or

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Speaker 1: a whole argument like that for the entirety of the movie. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree with you. You know, I also purposely didn't

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Speaker 1: read a whole month before came out. You know, they

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Speaker 1: build it as like, this is not a love story,

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Speaker 1: this is a story about love right, So I expected

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Speaker 1: there to be some drama intention like maybe there was

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Speaker 1: some infidelity or something, right, But I also did not

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Speaker 1: expect that it would be basically us being witness to

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Speaker 1: this like two hour long fight right all night for them.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I found myself feeling I was interested in

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Speaker 1: I was engaged, but I wasn't engaged the whole time.

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Speaker 1: It just not to say that it was boring to me,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't tolerable for me to like be like

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Speaker 1: really really invested in all the details of what they

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Speaker 1: were saying too much. So I know that there are moments,

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Speaker 1: even when I watched it again where I was like

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Speaker 1: checking in and checking out of the rants of it,

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Speaker 1: which I imagine it was also this parallel process of

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Speaker 1: Marie in the movies, like there's so much of that

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Speaker 1: that you can take in before you're just like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: keep going, I'll catch the beginning and the end of that,

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Speaker 1: but I can't. I can't get too close to all

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Speaker 1: of this ranting. Yeah, And I think that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people felt that way, right, like just kind of

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Speaker 1: observing you know, social media chatter. Um, a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: it feels like, felt very triggered by the movie, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know saw either some of themselves or parents or

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Speaker 1: you know, somebody in their lives. It felt like they

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Speaker 1: saw in this movie. And I've heard a lot of

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Speaker 1: people talk about like not necessarily feeling like it's the

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Speaker 1: one that they could watch twice, right, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of like I saw it and I did there and

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Speaker 1: I'm done kind of thing. So I would love to

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Speaker 1: hear from your experience as a couple of therapist And

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Speaker 1: it's just it feels like so much to unpack here,

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Speaker 1: But as a couple of therapists watching it, what was

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Speaker 1: one of the main things that kind of jumped out

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Speaker 1: for you? There are a few main themes, and so

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Speaker 1: one I didn't feel triggered. I didn't find myself feeling

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Speaker 1: triggered by it, and I do understand where people were

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Speaker 1: coming from that. I saw a lot of therapists also

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Speaker 1: saying that, and that part actually surprised me a little

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Speaker 1: bit more. But the main things that I picked up

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Speaker 1: on were just how he was speaking to her, not

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Speaker 1: only in words and in tone, but like pressured speech

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Speaker 1: and the ranting piece. Really that's what kind of drew

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Speaker 1: me into, like, well, what is he saying under this,

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Speaker 1: Like what's the point in what he's saying, which feels

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Speaker 1: kind of hard to get to because he's all over

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Speaker 1: the place. But those are the first things that I

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Speaker 1: picked up on in terms of couples dynamics and what

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Speaker 1: happens in conversation slash arguments, and ways in which people

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Speaker 1: enter certain parts of arguments, and what they listened to

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Speaker 1: and kind of what they hear and what they stay on.

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Speaker 1: If you pay attention to kind of different parts of

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Speaker 1: the movie, they would pick up on like one word

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Speaker 1: or like one phrase in the argument, and that would

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Speaker 1: be the whole basis for their response versus listening to

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Speaker 1: like all the different nuances of what someone was saying.

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Speaker 1: And that's really interesting because I see it all the

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Speaker 1: time with couples, Right, So this kind of argument, whether

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Speaker 1: this being only two hours, and I think that was

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Speaker 1: for us, but these things go all night for a

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Speaker 1: lot of couples, all night the next day into the

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Speaker 1: next weekend. So that actually isn't too rare for me

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Speaker 1: to see. It was just much more interesting to see

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Speaker 1: how they were weaving themselves in and out of the argument,

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Speaker 1: the conversation, laughing some romance, and then like back into

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Speaker 1: the argument. M yeah, and so you mentioned that this

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Speaker 1: is not a typical necessarily for couples, though I do

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Speaker 1: remember them talking about I think Marine made the comment,

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Speaker 1: you know, this may be like the worst fight that

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Speaker 1: we've had, but to me, this did not look like

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Speaker 1: the first time they had this kind of fight. And

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Speaker 1: we know as therapists that often the things that couples

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Speaker 1: come to us with in terms of the agument is

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Speaker 1: not actually about the topic, right, And I think if

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Speaker 1: you were able to listen closely, you were able to

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Speaker 1: see that in this argument with Malcolm and Marie that

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Speaker 1: it started of course about like him not thinking her,

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Speaker 1: but then as they continue to argue, you realize that

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Speaker 1: it was about these other things and so much history

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Speaker 1: between them even and I think it was a five

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Speaker 1: year relationship that they were in. Again, where couples oftentimes

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Speaker 1: start in the conversation or what they think they are

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Speaker 1: talking about are arguing about, oftentimes, isn't it they just

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Speaker 1: don't have the skills to get under the surface of

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Speaker 1: what they are really talking about. The pain, the hurt,

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Speaker 1: the betrayal, the confusion, the disconnection. That's oftentimes not language

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Speaker 1: that they have. So they talk about instances and circumstances

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Speaker 1: and experiences, trying to get the other person to understand well,

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Speaker 1: that's why I was hurt in that. So they start

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Speaker 1: kind of detailing things and we call it content. They

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Speaker 1: get into all of these like I said, kind of

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Speaker 1: details about this, and then this, and then you said this,

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Speaker 1: and then I said this, and then that persons said this,

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Speaker 1: and it really gets lost in terms of the pain

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Speaker 1: that's under it because the partners just looking to typically

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Speaker 1: defend the story. Well, that didn't happen that way, and

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Speaker 1: I said this first, and then you said that, And

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Speaker 1: that's what a couple of therapy can really be helpful

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Speaker 1: of slowing everything down so we can figure out what's

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Speaker 1: the message under that. Because you two can do this

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Speaker 1: for days, it's not helpful for you to come to

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Speaker 1: therapy and tell me the story. I want to help

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Speaker 1: you unpack what's under or behind the story and what

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Speaker 1: you're really trying to communicate to your partner. And those

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Speaker 1: couples don't have those skills, and that's what they're coming

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Speaker 1: to therapy for. Yeah, because I definitely found myself thinking

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Speaker 1: really early on, like if he had not forgotten to

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Speaker 1: thank you, when would all of this have come out right.

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Speaker 1: So all of the things in terms of the herd

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Speaker 1: and the feeling like he caters to everybody else. You know,

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Speaker 1: those are very valid arguments, right that, those are very

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Speaker 1: valid feelings. But it feels like because he forgot to

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Speaker 1: thank her, then that was her opening. M hm. And

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Speaker 1: look at how much resent was there, right, that's what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about when there are so many things left unsaid.

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Speaker 1: So oftentimes not even like a partner is like looking

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Speaker 1: for the end, but when it's there, they take it.

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Speaker 1: It was really interesting to see. I know that that

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Speaker 1: a lot of critique was why didn't they just stop?

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Speaker 1: Why didn't he just listen to her at the beginning

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Speaker 1: when she said, let's go to bed. This is not

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Speaker 1: gonna be productive, like she tried to again, that tells

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Speaker 1: you this has happened before that she was able to

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Speaker 1: note that because of how all of this is happening

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Speaker 1: in the way and I know how I'm feeling, and

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Speaker 1: I know what kind of night you've had, and maybe

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Speaker 1: how you get let's not do this in this way.

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Speaker 1: But she knew that something was bubbling up for her

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Speaker 1: and she was trying to contain it, but he would

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Speaker 1: keep jabbing and jabbing and jabbing. It's really interesting and

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Speaker 1: I helped couples learn about this, is that when your

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Speaker 1: nervous system is so activated, you might have all of

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Speaker 1: the cognitive thoughts right about, nope, don't do it, don't, don't, don't,

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Speaker 1: don't you press that button, don't do it, and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you see your body pressing the

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Speaker 1: button that you cannot even get out of this conversation

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Speaker 1: because you are so activated. So oftentimes, when we are

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Speaker 1: looking at couple's arguments, that we're seeing things from the outside,

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Speaker 1: we can objectively say, stopped. She's so resentful, she's so hurt.

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Speaker 1: He's not gonna be able to hear this. He is

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Speaker 1: I've heard say egotistical and narcissistic and all this other stuff,

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean that when you are in the

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Speaker 1: moment and you're so heightened, that you're able to slow

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Speaker 1: yourself down. And that's what we were witnessing. They wanted

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Speaker 1: to slow down, they wanted to stop, they wanted to

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Speaker 1: be together, but they were so activated that they could

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Speaker 1: not pull themselves out of this argument until they literally

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Speaker 1: probably exhausted themselves like a baby, you like literally have

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Speaker 1: to wear yourself out, you are too tired to keep fighting.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I don't know that. I really saw

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Speaker 1: very many moments of him not wanting to be pulled in, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, because the very beginning she was the one

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Speaker 1: who said, let's not do this. This is not gonna

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Speaker 1: be productive. And even when they would have those instances

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Speaker 1: of kind of pulling out of the fight, it didn't

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Speaker 1: seem that it was ever really fueled by him validating

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Speaker 1: her feelings. It was really fueled by something else. Yeah, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: It wasn't about him slowing down to actually like listen

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Speaker 1: to what she was saying. He was still in complete

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Speaker 1: defense mo. And I think that also connected to the

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Speaker 1: high he was feeling from that night. And I imagine

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Speaker 1: that for him, he sees it as you are now

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Speaker 1: ruining this big night for me, and here you go

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Speaker 1: with your stuff. And he started in that part really early.

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Speaker 1: The first thing I noticed is when he used the

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Speaker 1: word crazy. He called her crazy at the top of

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Speaker 1: this movie. And that was my first sign of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's not unfamiliar language to him or to her. When

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Speaker 1: she came in and said the fact that you can

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Speaker 1: say these things to me while eating macaroni and she's

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Speaker 1: just shows how messed up this whole thing is. But

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Speaker 1: that's not new language, and not to say that, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if he had been, you know, wanting to

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Speaker 1: say this for very longer kind of that he kind

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Speaker 1: of had this resent building up, but definitely related to

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Speaker 1: that night. He saw this as a threat right to

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Speaker 1: his ego in terms of how big this night was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be for him, and here she is talking

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Speaker 1: about herself and he completely missed the mark, you know,

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Speaker 1: not a I think that there is something around arguments

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Speaker 1: that happened on nights like this, right, And I don't

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Speaker 1: know if there's any literature to really support that, but

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Speaker 1: I feel like you often here or about like an

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Speaker 1: award night, or on the wedding night, right or something

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Speaker 1: else right there feels like there tends to be like

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Speaker 1: some kind of blow up or something on nights like this.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about why that might be? Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: made a lot of sense to me. Why would happen

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Speaker 1: on a night like that given the adrenaline that's there

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Speaker 1: and we can't also for this alcohol involved, and there's

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Speaker 1: a power dynamic that was there, and thinking about him

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Speaker 1: and thinking about his his industry, right, that is power.

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Speaker 1: He is now premiering something. All eyes are on him.

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Speaker 1: That's a huge dopamine rush, right, And then you come

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Speaker 1: home and more than likely you're in a space of

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Speaker 1: wanting to still be on the high, even if part

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Speaker 1: of his high was him being upset because he's you know,

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Speaker 1: ragging on these other you know, kind of film critics,

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Speaker 1: and he kind of gives his own kind of energy

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Speaker 1: and adrenaline to the point where he's talking and she's

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Speaker 1: not even really connecting with him, He's just talking to talk.

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Speaker 1: But you pair all those things together that it makes

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense that it's going to be at

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Speaker 1: some point a crash in that I don't think either

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Speaker 1: of them would expect it the crash to happen like that,

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Speaker 1: But you pay together again, power, ego, alcohol, hunger, right,

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Speaker 1: all these things we think about, right, hunger. And then

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Speaker 1: also what it looked like to me was that he

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Speaker 1: had this expectation and or desire. I don't think he

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Speaker 1: could ever name it because it will require vulnerability that

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Speaker 1: she would be able to just be there for him

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Speaker 1: that night and not have anything else to say about it, right,

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Speaker 1: that she would be riding that wave with him as

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Speaker 1: his number one supporter. She's in the room with him,

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Speaker 1: she's at home with him, she sees all the ins

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Speaker 1: and outs of this, and she couldn't offer that to

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Speaker 1: him in that same way because she was so hurt.

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Speaker 1: So oftentimes it's a mismatch of the energy, right, and

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Speaker 1: then when you had that kind of not being able

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Speaker 1: to reconcile that the crash makes a lot of sense, right,

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Speaker 1: But for both of them, again, this was stuff that

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Speaker 1: was there beforehand, and now we have a big night

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Speaker 1: where it blows up. You have to add in these

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Speaker 1: other factors. He was completely on an ego high because

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Speaker 1: of how big of a night that it was. That's

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Speaker 1: a harder fall when now your partner comes back and

285
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Speaker 1: says something about her, because now the storyline is no

286
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Speaker 1: longer about you. She's showing up in the relationship. She's

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Speaker 1: showing up in the conversation, and that he didn't want

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Speaker 1: to create any room for her to show up. M

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Speaker 1: And then listening to some of the things that she said,

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Speaker 1: that is a pattern, right, that she doesn't feel like

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Speaker 1: she is able to show up or that he is

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Speaker 1: really paying very much attention to her at all. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So there has been a lot of energy around this

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Speaker 1: mac and cheese, right, Um, So I think I interpreted

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Speaker 1: it kind of fairly innocuously, you know, kind of like

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Speaker 1: that's probably what she would do, you know, like and

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Speaker 1: and again in her attempt to like not be you know,

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Speaker 1: like let all of this theme out that night and

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Speaker 1: maybe have a hopefully calmer conversation about it the next day.

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Speaker 1: I think she was just going to make the mac

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Speaker 1: and cheese as a like, Okay, this is what we

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Speaker 1: typically do when we come home or whatever. But do

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Speaker 1: you think that there was more around that, you know,

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Speaker 1: like because there was also the fact that he was

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Speaker 1: the only one who ate it. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it was mint shared or like, is there anything

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00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,760
Speaker 1: else you kind of took from that scene From how

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Speaker 1: I watched her kind of go straight to it. It

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Speaker 1: didn't seem like it was something that was that she

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Speaker 1: even anticipated as a meal for them. It seemed like

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Speaker 1: something as like a soothing thing or two to make

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Speaker 1: him be quiet. Right. She came in and she kind

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Speaker 1: of she peeled some of her stuff off, she put

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Speaker 1: her stuff down, and then she went into the kitchen

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Speaker 1: and she got the box down. He didn't even say anything,

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Speaker 1: So that's what's told me that there's some history, there's

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Speaker 1: some pattern with him her and this macaroni and cheese

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Speaker 1: or mac and cheese, because people say, you can't call

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Speaker 1: a macaronian cheese because it's not right, it's not home

320
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Speaker 1: made macaroni easy that it seemed like there was already

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Speaker 1: some history or some pattern where again, either this is

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Speaker 1: what we do on nights like this, or this is

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Speaker 1: what will stop him or slow him down or distract

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Speaker 1: him in some way. In some ways, I could viewed

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Speaker 1: us like an act of like care and concern of like, hey,

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Speaker 1: he's probably hungry, whatever it is, let's just do this

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Speaker 1: and maybe that will ease the night. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how much of it was like a the Star jac

329
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Speaker 1: like a comfort food up season conversations around that, but

330
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Speaker 1: it's been really interesting to me to see conversations, you know,

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Speaker 1: connecting it to how culturally, culturally salience it is versus

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Speaker 1: really missing the mark culturally because they are a black

333
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Speaker 1: couple or he's a black man, and and that doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem like the appropriate thing that he would be eating.

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Speaker 1: After that, M got it, got it? Yeah, I mean

336
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Speaker 1: I definitely think and yeah, and the other piece of

337
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 1: that for me is that it actually made me think

338
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Speaker 1: about the conversations that he was having about race and

339
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 1: gender and what it means to be in his industry.

340
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Speaker 1: And she was the one who offered us as history.

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00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,960
Speaker 1: It said, yeah, you are black, but look at how

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Speaker 1: you grew up in terms of class, in terms of

343
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,040
Speaker 1: socio economic status. Right, So there was a way that

344
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,000
Speaker 1: even while they were talking about his race and his gender,

345
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 1: she was offering even more of the intersection in terms

346
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Speaker 1: of how he grew up in what he might be

347
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 1: used to, and that actually helped me make more sense

348
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,520
Speaker 1: of it being easy mag versus any other kind of

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Speaker 1: meal that we might connect to Black culture. Definitely, I

350
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,560
Speaker 1: agree with you there, so you to it at all. Yeah,

351
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Speaker 1: I just kind of like thought it was pretty innocuous,

352
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,680
Speaker 1: but it definitely seems like something that lots of people

353
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Speaker 1: kind of had some energy around. So the other thing,

354
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, like we've already talked about, like the whole

355
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 1: movie kind of was just like one long fight, but

356
00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,320
Speaker 1: it was individual fights, you know, kind of in between

357
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,840
Speaker 1: all of that. And so for me, the one that

358
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,040
Speaker 1: felt most like cringe worthy is the best word I

359
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,040
Speaker 1: can kind of think of is when she is in

360
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Speaker 1: the bathtub. Yeah, and so there's lectly two parts that,

361
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 1: but yeah, that's definitely one of them. Okay, so we'll

362
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Speaker 1: go this one and then I want to hear which

363
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Speaker 1: one you would describe. So for me, this one felt

364
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,919
Speaker 1: most cringe worthy because it very much felt like, you know,

365
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 1: when we talked to couples about attacking the issue as

366
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,440
Speaker 1: opposed to attacking one another, right, this was very much

367
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,640
Speaker 1: a very intentional decision for him in attacking her. Right.

368
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 1: So he makes some kind of comment about, like you

369
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,880
Speaker 1: want to go there, like I can go twenty times harder, right,

370
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,920
Speaker 1: and then like leads into this barrage of like all

371
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Speaker 1: these other women he's been with and how broken he

372
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 1: thinks she is and all of these things. So in

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Speaker 1: my mind, and I'm sure in Marie's mind, she's thinking,

374
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,160
Speaker 1: how do we get here? Right? Like this was started

375
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 1: out about you not thinking me, and now I am

376
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,479
Speaker 1: in a tub being berated and you're talking about all

377
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,119
Speaker 1: these other women that you've been with. Absolutely, I know

378
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,359
Speaker 1: that the world tends to throw around the word toxic

379
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,440
Speaker 1: right in a way that I that I find cringe worthy.

380
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,520
Speaker 1: What's the word is used? But that was the most

381
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,560
Speaker 1: harmful part of the conversation that I found even though

382
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:36,919
Speaker 1: there were all these kind of other parts of it

383
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 1: that were harmful, one in terms of the attentions around it,

384
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 1: and two in recognizing what he was trying to do,

385
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,240
Speaker 1: which was to prove to her right all these other

386
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,159
Speaker 1: to get as a power play for me, right to

387
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 1: prove to her all these other relationships that he's had,

388
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,720
Speaker 1: all these other things that all these other people that

389
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,679
Speaker 1: came before her, all these other memories he has of

390
00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,200
Speaker 1: connecting with other women. I don't think she took the

391
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,399
Speaker 1: bait the way in which he had intended. But for

392
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,959
Speaker 1: him to just go down a list of this and

393
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,919
Speaker 1: be willing to go down a list of maybe it

394
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,320
Speaker 1: wasn't five women, maybe more than that, at least five. Right,

395
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,920
Speaker 1: of all the ways in which what he is thinking

396
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,160
Speaker 1: about and how he was naver kind of moving through

397
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 1: his thought processes were not about her. It was just

398
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: jab after jab after jab after jab. That's I was saying,

399
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,359
Speaker 1: like to a point where it didn't even seem that

400
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 1: he would be able to slow himself down or like

401
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,720
Speaker 1: calm himself down, like that was something that was much

402
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,440
Speaker 1: more about him than her, and the harm not only

403
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,200
Speaker 1: for her but also for the relationship that that's the

404
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,000
Speaker 1: part that's harder to come back from. Those are things

405
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 1: she's more likely not going to forget. Even if she

406
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,199
Speaker 1: doesn't remember names and like details, she's never going to

407
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,920
Speaker 1: forget that we were in even the physical position, she's

408
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,679
Speaker 1: in a more vulnerable position. They're right, he's sitting on

409
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 1: the edge of the tub. He's outside of the tub,

410
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,959
Speaker 1: and she is inside. So I do like the cinematography

411
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 1: of it. And he is just making this list of

412
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,240
Speaker 1: all these ways and all these things that again have

413
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,440
Speaker 1: come before her, or ways in which he thinks about

414
00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,080
Speaker 1: other people that feels harmful, is harmful. But I'm not

415
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 1: sure that even you know, a quick kind of apology

416
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,640
Speaker 1: of you know, I was just trying to say this

417
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,399
Speaker 1: would help them to repair that moment. And that's what

418
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,240
Speaker 1: also told me that that's not new, that's that's that's

419
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 1: not a new thing between them. She didn't even seem

420
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 1: like shocked by it. Now see to me, I interpret

421
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 1: her feeling very shocked and very hurt by it, because

422
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 1: it looked like she was like trying not to cry

423
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 1: in the tub, and like she seemed very impacted to

424
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 1: me by it. And I thought The other part of

425
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,440
Speaker 1: it that made it incredibly cringeworthy was him saying at

426
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: the end it felt very manipulative, and that he was

427
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 1: saying like, this is the only way that it almost

428
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,119
Speaker 1: seems like I love you, right, is that you make

429
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,479
Speaker 1: me hurt you kind of thing, right, which was like, WHOA,

430
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,240
Speaker 1: So now you said all this nanty stuff and you

431
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 1: top it off with you know, as if like I'm

432
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 1: trying to prove a point about like this is the

433
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: only way you can recognize love is for me to

434
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,120
Speaker 1: put it down the intentions part of it. And that's

435
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 1: that's what piece where it is like that this goes

436
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 1: much deeper than you know. I was just upset that night.

437
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 1: Oftentimes that's what couples come in with later. I was

438
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 1: just really mad that night, right, Everything had just built

439
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: up and I was just so upset. But you don't

440
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: say things like that just from right, only from a

441
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,400
Speaker 1: place of upset. That's where the resent comes in. These

442
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 1: have been things that have been building and building and building,

443
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 1: and more than likely somebody doesn't begin harming someone just

444
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,479
Speaker 1: that night out of nowhere. That's why I say that

445
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 1: that while it might have kind of been their worst

446
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 1: night of this there have more than likely been dabbles

447
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 1: or dribbles of this all throughout their five year relationship,

448
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 1: and thinking about how she entered the relationship when she

449
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 1: was in her most vulnerable place, I can't imagine she

450
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 1: would have understood that then, because he pairs it with

451
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 1: this is what love is, and this is how I love,

452
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 1: And more than likely he also paired it with money

453
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 1: and status and like all these things that come with

454
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 1: and I think in a vulnerable state, it's much harder

455
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: for you to tease that apart. She could do a

456
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: lot more of that now. But again, he had that

457
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 1: glimmer in his eye right that said like, oh, I'm

458
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 1: saying these things intentionally, and I'm watching how you're responding

459
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 1: to this. So when I say that she wasn't I

460
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 1: think she was hurt, right, I don't think she was

461
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 1: shocked by it. I don't think that that that all

462
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: of that was totally new. That might have been a

463
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 1: new example of the same pattern, But I don't think

464
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 1: she was shocked by him being able to harm her

465
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: in those ways and him to have such a sharp

466
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 1: edge to him. I think it all happening kind of

467
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: in this way when she's kind of in the tub

468
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: after a night like this was absolutely new, but she's

469
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: familiar with his sharp edge. She's quite familiar with it. Yeah,

470
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: And just to kind of think, aback about your comment

471
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: about her being in the tub, right, because again I

472
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: feel like her being in the tub is yet another

473
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 1: attempt by her to de escalate the situation, right, Like,

474
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 1: now I'm gonna go and take a bath. And then

475
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 1: this is when he comes in with like the most

476
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: you know, disgusting of the things he's gonna say, and

477
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: she's again attempting to de escalate and like try to

478
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: get back to the the center. Yes, she made I wouldn't

479
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 1: say the least three attempts right to get away and

480
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: to neutralize things. Right, even when you see them coming

481
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 1: in the house, she's walking ahead of him, She's moving

482
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: into the kitchen away for him. She goes into the

483
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: bedroom and he's in the kitchen. She goes into the bathroom.

484
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 1: She goes into the bedroom and gets in the bed,

485
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 1: She goes outside. She has had several attempts throughout this

486
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 1: whole argument to de escalate, to neutralize, to take some

487
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 1: space and then possibly come back together at a later time.

488
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: And he follows her all through the argument. So we

489
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: call that a pursuer distancer dynamic. And so oftentimes there's

490
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 1: one person in the conversation and conversation argument or relationship

491
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 1: dynamic where to get their needs met and to feel

492
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: seen and heard, they pursue it. They demanded, they say, hey,

493
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: listen to me. They will do all these protests to

494
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: get your attention, right. So I would literally say, they

495
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,919
Speaker 1: will follow you. I talk to my clients about this

496
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: all the time. They will follow you from the kitchen

497
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: to the bedroom, to the bathroom when you close the

498
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: door and knocking on the door, and then you come

499
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: out and they follow you over to the second bedroom.

500
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: They're just walking or following you all around the house.

501
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 1: What happens to the distancer or the withdrawal is that

502
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: that makes them feel unsafe, so they try to find

503
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: all these different spaces where they can get a break

504
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: from you, right, But it makes them also not want

505
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 1: to be around you even more when you don't give

506
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: them space. So what it turns into is a chase

507
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,479
Speaker 1: all around the house. So whether it's around the coffee

508
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 1: table or like into these different rooms or outside into

509
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: the car, there are all these ways in which you'll

510
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 1: see this pursuer distance or dynamic show up. It was

511
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: illustrated right pretty accurately by them. She would separate from him,

512
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: you wouldn't hear much, and then you would see him

513
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: like literally looking for her, like what where'd you go?

514
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: And then he would follow her and then open something else.

515
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: She was attempting to get away from him and away

516
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 1: from this conversation back to back to back to back.

517
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean she wouldn't come back at him sometimes, but

518
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: she largely was trying to de escalate this whole thing

519
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: and he wouldn't allow room for it. We'll hear more

520
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: from dr Abrams right after this break. What are the

521
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 1: other illustrations of that dynamic? Dr A so pursuer distancer,

522
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: I think is the one we and most often. Are

523
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: there other examples? Yes, some couples show up as pursuer pursuers.

524
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: So the way in which they get their needs met

525
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: is where they both demand. So you might see more

526
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: hostile arguments between the two. Was like ricocheting back and forth.

527
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 1: Neither of them are backing down. They are just at

528
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: each other's next And we call that kind of the

529
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: hot conflict. You say something, I'm saying it right back

530
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: and we're just going at it, but that's more of

531
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: a pattern behavior, and sometimes you'll see withdraw withdrawer, right,

532
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 1: So both people they try to get their needs met,

533
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: but as soon as it feels too risky, we'll see

534
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: both people retreat to their rooms. And what you'll see

535
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: more likely with that kind of couple is that I'll

536
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: hear couples come in and say, yeah, we haven't talked

537
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: in three days. Yeah we didn't talk all weekend. Right.

538
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 1: They might go at it, but they both then would

539
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: draw to their respective corners until somebody kind of might

540
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: sling back or until they have to talk because there's

541
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: some like household thing to manage, oftentimes as a child,

542
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: and that will get them kind of back talking, which

543
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: you will also see. And it tends to be gendered

544
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: or in a way, so it tends to be where,

545
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: particularly in a heterosexual couple, they might be the woman

546
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: partner we see burnt out pursuer, so that dynamic she

547
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: is the one who has historically pursued right, okay, love attention.

548
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: There might be protests, There might be demands, Hey, this

549
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: is what I like. You don't see me? How can

550
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: we're not doing this? How come you're showing attention to

551
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: other people, things like that might come up. But when

552
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: the withdrawal, right, or the other partner doesn't respond for

553
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: long enough, she gets really burnt out and she stops fighting, right,

554
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: So she's like she's now like more out of the game,

555
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: and she's just like, yeah, well, okay, that's happening. But again,

556
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: I'm not engaging with you, I'm not protesting, I'm not

557
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: looking for these things anymore. And what's really interesting is

558
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: that when that shows up in therapy oftentimes, and I'm

559
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: emotionally focused therapy modality, right, so oftentimes we will work

560
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: with the person who identifies as the withdrawer, will work

561
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: to bring them back online. So the person who tends

562
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: to be quieter isn't as emotionally engaged. We work to

563
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: have them sharing more about their emotions, about their needs,

564
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: about their insecurities. But now what happens is they're showing

565
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: up and the burnt out pursue was just like, yeah,

566
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: but I asked for that two years ago. Yeah, but

567
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: I've been fighting for that for three years. So now

568
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: the work is to see if we can soothe the

569
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 1: burnt out pursuer enough where now they're back online at

570
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: the same time, And I want to come back to

571
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: that at the end because I wanted to ask, like,

572
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: what happens if Marie and Malcolm come to your office?

573
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: But I also want to go back You knew you

574
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: were in for that. Oh yeah, yeah, But what was

575
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: the cringe worthy part for you? The cringe worthy probable

576
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: of me was where he was going into more detail

577
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: about quote quote how he found her and how vulnerable

578
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: he was when they first met, so that she was

579
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: strung out, falling asleep all over the place that he was.

580
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: Really he was taking advantage of how vulnerable he was

581
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: without acknowledging the power that the power play, that the

582
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: power dynamic that was between them in terms of age,

583
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: socio economic status, career status. But he was putting that

584
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: all on her in such a manipulotu way, saying, look

585
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: at what I did for you, look at what I

586
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: offered you. Right. That is suppose to make her silent,

587
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: That is supposed to shut her down because she is

588
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: only supposed to show up as grateful in this because

589
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: maybe he has saved her life. Right then, maybe he's

590
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: the only one who gave her a chance when she

591
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: didn't deserve it. So just using a lot of that vulnerability,

592
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: using her suicidality against her, Like that was the part

593
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: that was really like, Oh, that's the stuff that's hard

594
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: to come back from. You can yell for some people

595
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: that you know, you can throw things, you can do

596
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: all those intimidating practice, but using that part of my

597
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: life against me and not taking responsibility for the role

598
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: that you played during that part of my life can

599
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: be extreme or is extremely harmful. That's where the toxicity

600
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: comes up. That's where that's where you can tell like, oh,

601
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: this isn't new for them to go to these really

602
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: really dark moments. They clearly haven't recovered. They don't repair

603
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: those dark moments. They just stopped fighting. That is not

604
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: a repair process that's happening. I think they literally just

605
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: wear themselves out. Yeah, I mean and he he references

606
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: you know, this whole idea that Marie is not the

607
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: first quote unquote broken woman he's dated. Right, So there

608
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: is clearly a pattern in a history of him having

609
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: this kind of savior complex, whether he recognizes it or not,

610
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: and finding these women who he feels like he can

611
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: save in some way or you know, like they need

612
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: him in some way. Yes, and then using it against

613
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: them right in these ways. I'm pretty sure that there's

614
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: a whole history of that in his relationships. And if

615
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: Malcolm and Marie are not to remain together, if he

616
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: doesn't do any deep work on himself, he would continue

617
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: in that same pattern. And we see it all over

618
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: the place, whether it be in that particular industry or

619
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: other industries. You see the same dynamic in terms of

620
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: gender power, socio economic status. But this this narrative, right

621
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: that I helped you, and because I helped you, what

622
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: you owe me is gratitude. What you owe me is

623
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: ego boosting. What you owe me is that you stick around.

624
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: But it really creates his codependency right where the other

625
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: partner maybe doesn't get to realize right their resilience or

626
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: be able to do things to know that they can

627
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: take care of themselves. So it promotes co dependency in

628
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: that way. And just based on how the more vulnerable

629
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: person begins to show up in the relationship, and oftentimes

630
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: when they begin showing up as more again, more resilient,

631
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: more capable, that's a huge threat to that other partner

632
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: because what are they going to do if they don't

633
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: have somebody who needs them that's the power piece of it.

634
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm. So you know now that you have been

635
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: talking Dr A, I'm thinking, and I mean, this is

636
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: clearly nothing we have access to because these are not

637
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: real people and write the story, right, But if his

638
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: pattern of being somebody who like really relishous in having

639
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: power over people and then using that against them later,

640
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: that would lead me to think that he would have

641
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,239
Speaker 1: actually fought to cast her in the film, which we

642
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: realize is really the thing she's heard about, right. It

643
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: started out as this project that a lot of it

644
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: is inspired by her real life, right, And so if

645
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: he is somebody who like enjoys his power role, would

646
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: that not be the ultimate power role is to like

647
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: get her cast in this movie and then kind of

648
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: forever hold it over her head that like I made you,

649
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: you got this breakout role because of me. But we

650
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: that he doesn't. So I just love to hear your

651
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: thoughts about why maybe he didn't cast her in this

652
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: role or fight for her to be casted. That's a

653
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: really good point. I hadn't considered that, but even you're

654
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: just saying that the main reason that I could see

655
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: him again given the narcissistic tendency to pop up. And

656
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: I can't call him narcissistic because I don't know more

657
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: history enough to diagnose him. Can diagnose him from here,

658
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: But the tendency to show the main reason I would

659
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: see him in not casting her is that it runs

660
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: the risk of that being a breakout role and then

661
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: she gets power. So while he might still hold this

662
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: narrative of I gave you that opportunity, it's like, hey,

663
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: once I give you more opportunity to become powerful, it

664
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: runs the risk of you leaving, It runs the risk

665
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: of you not needing me anymore. So it actually, to

666
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: me makes sense that he wouldn't offer, But especially also

667
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: given how big he thought or thinks that this is

668
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: going to be, why would he give her an opportunity

669
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: to show up and shine in that role that's less

670
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: and less power that he has? Very good points. Yeah,

671
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: and that felt like there was something under there too.

672
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: Write like you hear them kind of talking about Taylor,

673
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: who is the story right field, right, and he kind

674
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: of says, you know, without ever being asked, like I

675
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: didn't sleep with her kind of thing. It feels like

676
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: there's something there, you know, and I'm sure for Marie, right,

677
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: Like if this is based a lot on her real

678
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: life her, and she's an actress who you have now

679
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: not thought to be in the role. And I'm sure

680
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: there's already some tension there, but it feels like there

681
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: may be something else kind of brewing as well. Yeah,

682
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: I agree, And but looking at how he deplex it,

683
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: you like, oh, you're mad a Taylor. Oh this is

684
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: about Taylor. He makes a whole list of like, Oh,

685
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: it must be that, Oh it must be that. Oh

686
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: it must be that, And that's what she's like, No,

687
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: this is about you. Doesn't mean she's not fazed by

688
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: any of those dynamics, but she's more hurt by how

689
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: she has not been seen by him. And that is

690
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: what she was essentially kind of desperately begging for. I

691
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: want you to see me in this right, and that

692
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: could have been really helpful for her just in terms

693
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 1: of how she sees herself. But if her lens of

694
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: that is through him, that she will remain as broken

695
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: as she feels in that moment. He's a very unsafe

696
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: mirror her for her to be using right in terms

697
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: of her resilience, in terms of her skill set, and

698
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: that's what happens in that dynamic again kind of given

699
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: the power differential that's there right, right, And we talked

700
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: about this a little bit, but I definitely think, you know,

701
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: her history with substance abuse probably plays a huge part

702
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: in how she shows up in this dynamic, and it

703
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like there are really many opportunities for it

704
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: to be a safe expression right in the ways that

705
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: Malcolm really just uses it against her. Yeah, and I

706
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: wish they would have talked about that more. In terms

707
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: of how they got together. I know that was that

708
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: they kind of dropped it enough for us to be

709
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: kind of thinking, kind of speculating all these ways. But

710
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: if we had some more details about how they got together,

711
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: what that period of time looked like, we'd have a

712
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: lot more insight into how this relationship got to five years.

713
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: And my guess is that it's not god to five

714
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: years because she feels safe in it. My guess is

715
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: again now that there's this attachment piece that's come up

716
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: for them because of what he offered her and how

717
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: he quote unquote did save her. I don't think he

718
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: saved her. She saved herself, but she needed some other

719
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: resources for that that would be much much more interested

720
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: to see how the first year of their relationship look.

721
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: That's much more telling than this fight for me, agreed.

722
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: And I don't know if they ever say, like what

723
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: the age difference is. I mean, they allude to the

724
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 1: fact that she was twenty t one, right, Like that's

725
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: who the whole movie is about. Yea, a twenty year

726
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: old who's kind of, you know, becoming clean. So I

727
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: don't know how old we are now, And like how

728
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: many years older is he supposed to be in the movie.

729
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: I didn't catch it in the movie. I might have

730
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: missed something, but I saw a speculation that he's in

731
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 1: his thirties. There was something about like either a seven

732
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: or a ten year age gap in some way, But

733
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: again I don't know that was the assumption made on

734
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: the house. And like how much money it looks like

735
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: he has, he must be a certain age. I don't

736
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: know about that piece, but that might have been named

737
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: before the movie came out, when people were talking about

738
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: the age of difference. But I'm not sure if it

739
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: was about the age difference in real life and people

740
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: were concerned about that or the age difference in the

741
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: actual movie. Me got it, got it okay, but he

742
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: was much more quote unquote stable and I won't say

743
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: emotionally stable, because again he's got some measure, but he

744
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: was more stable than she was when they met. Yeah,

745
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: And I mean, and that's a really good point, right,

746
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: because it feels like it's really easy to focus on

747
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: the things in her history that might not be so shiny. Right.

748
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: But I also think when we see him, like it's

749
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: him thing to look for her, and there's almost like

750
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: this panic of like where is she? Kind of like

751
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: I wonder what that says about like him in his history.

752
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: Any thoughts there? Yep, that's I'm saying. When I saw that,

753
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: there were at least four different points and when she left,

754
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: and he was just like he had to be with her,

755
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: even if he was berating her, it had to be

756
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: some kind of contact and attachment for me that spoke to,

757
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: you know, fearful avoidance. Right, There's something about him being

758
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: able to access her that he couldn't even soothe himself.

759
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: So he just kept searching for all throughout the house

760
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: and just he was following her around his house for

761
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: two hours and then in the morning, so more to

762
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: do hours because in the morning, where do you go? Yah,

763
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: the in her outside he's looking for her all throughout

764
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: the words like he was not able to regulate and

765
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: soothe himself. He was looking for her for that's the

766
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: only way in which it would have happened. That's what

767
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: I saw all throughout the movie. And that's the the

768
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: irony of how powerful and independent and smart and all

769
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: these ways and what he wanted to come across. But

770
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: she sees his vulnerability. She sees it, and that is

771
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: thretening to him. So he had to offer ways in

772
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: which to remind her, I'm still better at this than you.

773
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: I am older, I'm wiser, I have more money, I

774
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: have more stable blah blah blah blah blah. But she

775
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: is probably the only person who sees him that vulnerable. Yeah,

776
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: and it feels like that panic was mimicked when the

777
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: first review came out, right, so you see the same

778
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: level of like, oh my gosh, what are they gonna say? So,

779
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: which lets you know again that this, beside that he

780
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,879
Speaker 1: has as this brilliant filmmaker or whatever, is still very

781
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: unstable and really kind of dependent upon what other people think. Yes,

782
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: he is so so so fragile. But again, the only

783
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: person who would see would be her in this big

784
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: old house and probably when they're in the car, but

785
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: no other way does he let that out, the whole

786
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: rant he had about the I forgot her name, but

787
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: about the the and then the other person. But yes,

788
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: that's only that is only stuff that she would hear

789
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: and see. He's not going to offer that anywhere else, right,

790
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: So there's a way in which she can only see that.

791
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: And I actually won't even call it a vulnerability. Um,

792
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: but it is him. It is him feeling vulnerable, but

793
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: it's not him offering her vulnerability, if that makes sense.

794
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: There's a difference for me between the insecurity that is internal,

795
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: versus somebody being able to say, hey, this is me

796
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: really feeling blank about this. I feel shame, I feel guilt.

797
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 1: I don't feel you know, credible, I don't feel powerful.

798
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: He wasn't offering it to her as that, but with

799
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: her being with him for five years, she could see it,

800
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: and she was supporting some of it. They got like

801
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: jovial around it. They were kind of making these jokes.

802
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: But she is a huge, huge threat to his ego. Yeah,

803
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 1: very interesting, so much to unpack. So I do want to,

804
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: you know, like, so let's say, but Malcolm and Marie

805
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: have this awful fight and they're like, Okay, we probably

806
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 1: need to do something about this now. So they look

807
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: through the directories and they find you are information and

808
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: so coming to you now after this huge fight, what

809
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: might you kind of start to unpack with them or

810
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: work with them on. So the way that I do

811
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: couple's work is I need to get to know you

812
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: individually before we kind of do any work as a couple.

813
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: So it would be one joint session and then to

814
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: individual sessions and then we come back join and then

815
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: we talk more about emotionally focused therapy, and then we

816
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: move forward if we're all in agreement. But I would

817
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: be really interested in the individual intake to get the

818
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 1: whole family history. I want family history, social history, relationship history.

819
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: That would tell me a lot about how he shows

820
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: up in the world. What I assume also for Malcolm

821
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: in that space is that he wouldn't tell me everything.

822
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: And obviously, you know everything can't be you know, it's

823
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: an hour, But that would be too much vulnerability for him, right,

824
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: So we offer kind of paperwork at the beginning, but

825
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: I would be asking about his romantic history. I would

826
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 1: be asking him about relationship role models, romantic relationship role models.

827
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 1: I would be asking him very pointed questions about, Hey,

828
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: when you were growing up and you didn't feel well

829
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: about something, or you felt vulnerable, or you felt hurt

830
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: by something, could you talk to anybody and tell me

831
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: about who that person is. So I get a lot

832
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 1: of details in my individual intake about safety, about attachment styles,

833
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: about who you could respond to and kind of relate

834
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: to in your life. And I also connect that to gender,

835
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: any kind of racial dynamics as well. And I asked

836
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: similar questions of her, but obviously i'd get more information

837
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: about her substance use history, and that would lead me

838
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: into how they met. So in meeting with them and say,

839
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: you know, decide to work together, I would be ready

840
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: for now that I would use it against it, but

841
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: I'll be ready for him to be a lot more

842
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: guarded with me in terms of that vulnerability piece. But

843
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 1: I am looking for what are the themes in terms

844
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: of how they fight and when they fight, how often

845
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: does it happen, how do they get into it, how

846
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: long does it last, and who initiates repair. My guess

847
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: is that Marie Well actually now that now that in

848
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: having more of this conversation. My guess is that he

849
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: initiates repair, not in a vulnerable way in which he

850
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: says like, hey, I really apologize for this, but he

851
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: starts doing some stuff and they start talking again. So

852
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: I always want to know how repair begins to happen

853
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: and if it actually feels repaired for them. But I

854
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: want to get a history with them sitting next to

855
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: each other about how she entered the relationship. I want

856
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: her to tell me that out loud in front of him,

857
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: and I'd like to get his sense of how they

858
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: entered the relationship and why they chose each other. That's

859
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: the first step, because oftentimes those stories are similar, but

860
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: oftentimes they're really different, and couples don't ever talk about

861
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: that they have these different stories of the same experiences.

862
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: So that would give me some information about what attracted

863
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: them to each other. And then we would look at, hey,

864
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: how hot and heavy do these moments go, and kind

865
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: of what happens when you two really get into it.

866
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: And I'd also look for, you know, what are the

867
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 1: most hurtful things about these arguments with each other? Who

868
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 1: I what are the things that he says that feel

869
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: the most hurtful and harmful for you that our hardest

870
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 1: to forget. And what are the things that she says

871
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: to your ways and what she behaves that feel the

872
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: most hurtful to you. What happens oftentimes and couple is

873
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: that what you think is the most hurtful thing ain't

874
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: the thing. You think at that time that I did

875
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: this and we got in that big fight, that was

876
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: the thing. And you will hear your partner say a

877
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: totally different story that you didn't even recognize, and we

878
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: call them mom attachment injury injuries. You didn't even recognize

879
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: that was an attachment injury. And so, for example, I

880
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: have worked with couples where they might assume that or

881
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: I might even assume that infidelity was the biggest issue.

882
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: And I will have a partner talk about a betrayal

883
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: when it comes to spending money in a way in

884
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: which they didn't agree on because it felt like such

885
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: a misuse of something that they trusted you with. Right

886
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: in my in therapist mind, a kind of socially, we

887
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: would think that, you know, betrayal by you know, having

888
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: sex with somebody or engaging in an emotional affair is

889
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: the thing, because that's what we're told don In a

890
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: lot of couples, it's hey, I thought we were in

891
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: an agreement about this, and now I can't do this

892
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:06,959
Speaker 1: part of my life because you spent that money over there,

893
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: or because you didn't stay on the job that I

894
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: thought you were going to stay on for five years,

895
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: and I've never been able to forgive you. So it's

896
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: always about listening to what their attachment injuries are, not

897
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: what I assumed the injury might be. Right, So like

898
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: we're talking about all this stuff that you know, those

899
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: two cringe worthy moments, and that might not be the

900
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: moment for Zendeia. You might have something totally different right

901
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 1: to say about what was the thing that she'll never

902
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: be able to forget. But that's why I always ask

903
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: couples what's your thing? And oftentimes the other partner is

904
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: completely shocked. They haven't even thought about that moment for

905
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: six years. And then to hear that partner say like, oh,

906
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: I will never forget the time in which you didn't

907
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: come home that night because you were with your your

908
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: homeboys super Bowl night and I had just gotten this

909
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: call from my mom. Something like that. That tends to

910
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: also have a moment. It's like, Okay, we tend to

911
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: make a lot of assumptions about each other. But now

912
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: let's get into actually listening to how your partner is

913
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 1: experiencing you and unpack it from there. So that's where

914
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: would start with them, m M, and then actually call them, yeah,

915
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 1: see where it goes. Yeah, I pulled them away from

916
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: all the content of last night's argument and talk about

917
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: what's the probability of arguments like this because I again,

918
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: partners oftentimes come in they want me to know that

919
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 1: they are right, that they said everything they should have said,

920
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: and that they only said what they said or did

921
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: what they did because of the other person. So I

922
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: pulled them kind of out of the weeds of all

923
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: the details of it, because we also don't have all

924
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: the time for all the details validate right how important

925
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: it is for them. But I want them to get

926
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: a sense of the pattern of the behavior so they

927
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: can actually see the cycle of how they get into this,

928
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: not the content of it. Y'all can fight about cheese

929
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: and the fridge and chores in the house and who

930
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: did what to the car and money, but I want

931
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: you to actually really get a sense of what's the

932
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: thing that triggers us even getting into this argument like this,

933
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 1: and once they're able to see that, then we work

934
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,919
Speaker 1: on how they can stole themselves down from getting into

935
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: the depths of the cycle. Got it. So I imagine

936
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: if she did the visual work with you, A part

937
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: of which she might also wants to explore is what

938
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 1: it was like to see her life being played out

939
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: on the screen like that by someone else. Yeah. Absolutely,

940
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: I think that that brings up a really good point

941
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: in terms of how connected and disconnected she might feel

942
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 1: in that moment. Right, So, there's a way in which

943
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: that can provide some externalization which we offer to a

944
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: lot of clients as a coping mechanism. Right, what's a

945
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: way for you to process things that you've been through

946
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: without feeling so activated by it, but at the same

947
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: time seeing it in such a way, Right that seeing

948
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 1: it big screen, so many people around, right who may

949
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: or may not know that this is, you know, loosely

950
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 1: connected to you, can be a lot of exposure right

951
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,479
Speaker 1: all at once, and her not having the safe space

952
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: really process how that feels. To have her to bear

953
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: witness to maybe some of the most traumatic things she's

954
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 1: experienced and have everybody review and critique and talk about

955
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: this character as though it's not a real person. So

956
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: I imagine that probably did debate a lot of things

957
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: for her, whether that be related to her trauma or

958
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: not being seen and valued by her partner. That he

959
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,439
Speaker 1: really just exposed her in that way and hasn't checked

960
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: in with her about it at all because it's been

961
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 1: about him. Absolutely, yeah, I mean, because for as big

962
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: as that night was for him, I would imagine it

963
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: was also big for her and to have not be

964
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: seen right and have no space to kind of talk

965
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: to because everything is about him, It would make a

966
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: lot of sense that that's what she was also looking

967
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 1: for in addressing that, even if she was trying to

968
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: kind of hold back from even going there with him,

969
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: that same theme about not being seen by him, that

970
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: he could offer so much of her and that she

971
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: couldn't have any hands on it. She wasn't involved in

972
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: that process of exposing so many parts of her life

973
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 1: really hurtful. We'll hear more from dr Abrams right after

974
00:45:49,440 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: this break. So the other thing I would love to

975
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: hear your take on. I thought that this was particularly

976
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: pointant when Marie was able to say not only that

977
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: I think she wanted to be castid in this movie

978
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: because it was her life and it was probably a

979
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: breakout role. But also you know, she mentioned like I

980
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,479
Speaker 1: didn't mean to give all of that away, right, And

981
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: you have now been able to make something beautiful out

982
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 1: of this, you know, miss my life? And now where

983
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: do I go with it? Right? I don't feel like

984
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: I can tell my story because you and Taylor have

985
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: already shared it. So if she came to you as

986
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: an individual client, either still in this relationship or outside

987
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: of this relationship, how might you work with her to

988
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: kind of help her to think about how she can

989
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: still make a meaningful story from the things that have

990
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: happened in her life. Yeah, I think that leads me

991
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: right into what I do with a lot of clients,

992
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 1: and particularly black women clients, is narrative work, right when

993
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: we're looking at your story and your words for it, right,

994
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: so that even if he has used parts of her story,

995
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: it's still her. She still has full ownership of it.

996
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: And we can't always control how other people tell our stories.

997
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: But what can be really great and transformative about therapy

998
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,439
Speaker 1: is that now we are working on the tools where

999
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 1: your story is in your own words, and you can

1000
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: do whatever you want with it and share the pieces

1001
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: of it that feel the most salient to you in

1002
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: the ways in which you want to be shared and

1003
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: with who you wanted to be shared, right, but really

1004
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: kind of helping people understand and kind of release some

1005
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: of that kind of sense of kind of power and

1006
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: control that they that they want to have over their narratives,

1007
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: but that hey, if you're going to have any connection

1008
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: with someone else, they actually do get to have their

1009
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: own narrative of you. And it can feel really difficult

1010
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: if it feels mischaracterized. It can be really difficult if

1011
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: it feels kind of stolen from them or taken from

1012
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: them or undermined by them. But that doesn't remove or

1013
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: limit the ways in which you can still tell your story. Again,

1014
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: it's about making choices about who and how you tell

1015
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: your story. But oftentimes that can be really hard that

1016
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: I have this part of my life and because again,

1017
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: they have more access, more power, more whatever it is,

1018
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: they get to tell their story. They get to write

1019
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 1: their own book right with their version of me in it.

1020
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: But people are gonna have versions of you that are

1021
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: going to align or not aligne if you spend so

1022
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 1: much time trying to control someone else's version of you.

1023
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: That mean you're not really getting clear about the version

1024
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: of you that you want to promote, but like really

1025
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: validating how difficult that is that other people have other

1026
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 1: versions of you in their stories. Mm hmmm. That feels

1027
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,439
Speaker 1: incredibly powerful, right, I mean both for Mariba, for any

1028
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: of us, I think, right, like being able to share

1029
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: our version of the story and having that be the

1030
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: most powerful one, not somebody else's version being more powerful

1031
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: than our own, right, right, And recognizing that the other

1032
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: versions are there and can be hurtful. So it's not

1033
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 1: to invalidate the her that that comes with, but how

1034
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: to kind of offer you some more kind of redirecting

1035
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: towards your version of your story that can come through

1036
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: your own words. So, dr A, I wonder if you

1037
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: have some thoughts I'm sure you do, on how to

1038
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 1: manage your own behavior around a partner who has something

1039
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: in their history around something like substance abuse, are suicidal attempts,

1040
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 1: are whatever? Right, so that you don't like wielded in

1041
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: a manipulative way, or have it kind of come up

1042
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: in a fight. Yeah, I think one is getting more

1043
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: curious versus judgmental about their own connection with that history. Again,

1044
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,919
Speaker 1: I can make all these assumptions about what this time

1045
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: in your life might have meant to you and how

1046
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: it's affected you and how it's affecting you now. But

1047
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,879
Speaker 1: that's all of my own data, based on my history

1048
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. So I think first really offering

1049
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: your partner again that the same narrative piece for them

1050
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: to tell their own story and how that stuff is

1051
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: still showing up with them or not, and continuing to

1052
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: support them in that way. I think there's a way

1053
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: to be able to honor different versions of people without

1054
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: using it against them. I think there's a way in

1055
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: which you want to be sensitive to what somebody has

1056
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: been through, what they're navigating, where you know some of

1057
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: their insecurities still remain without throwing it throwing it in

1058
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: their face when you are feeling insecure. So one um

1059
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: that comes in kind of with that safety about the

1060
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: knowledge of how the still continues to affect them. But

1061
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: you can also ask them, right that, based on that history,

1062
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: what are things that feel safe for me to do

1063
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: and what are things that don't feel safe or feel

1064
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: harmful for me to do? Right, But particularly when it

1065
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: comes to substance use, that's about if I'm using any

1066
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: of these substances around you. Right, it's important for me

1067
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: to know if that might trigger you in some way,

1068
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: And it's important for a partner to be able to

1069
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 1: tell me that, hey, when we are in either these

1070
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: kinds of spaces or when that kind of substance is around,

1071
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: this is what's happening for me internally and or externally,

1072
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: and this is what could be really helpful from you.

1073
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,280
Speaker 1: But to actually have the conversation about and versus making

1074
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: assumptions so they'll sometimes show up in couples, is that

1075
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: because we know that there's a history, we try to

1076
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 1: do everything we can to quote quote not trigger the person.

1077
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna stop drinking because I know that

1078
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: that is a part of your history, which is not

1079
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,879
Speaker 1: something that your partner has said that they need from you.

1080
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: But your partner is going to pick up on that

1081
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: you're doing all these things to avoid it when that's

1082
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: not what they've asked of you. Right. So also so

1083
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: being able to take that into account and say, hey,

1084
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: given what I know of the and given what you

1085
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: share with me, what can I offer to you in this?

1086
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: What are ways in which I can support you so

1087
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: that I can be mindful of that moving forward, but

1088
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: not going straight into problem solving. Fix it. Let me

1089
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: just not do anything that makes them think about this. Right,

1090
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: more than likely a person who has a significant substance

1091
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: abuse history is thinking about this, even if it's not

1092
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: derailing them and taking them over anymore, but it's present

1093
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: with them. So you are not going to be able

1094
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 1: to protect them from it an entirety, but you can

1095
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: offer ways in which you can be more sensitive to it. Right. So,

1096
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 1: like I said, that can be in terms of settings

1097
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: that you spend time in or recreationally, or kind of

1098
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: things that you're doing around the house that my trigger

1099
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 1: not only the actual substance used, but anything that happened

1100
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: to that person that may have had a negative impact

1101
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: on them. Right, So, essentially it's being able to help

1102
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: them understand how it has been traumatizing. If that trauma

1103
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 1: continues to show up, what are ways in which I

1104
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: can provide you support in this, but also honoring I'm

1105
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: not going to be able to avoid everything, but let

1106
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: me know what I can do to help you through

1107
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 1: any of these moments. Nice. Thank you so much for

1108
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: that framework. I appreciate that. So going back to our

1109
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, one of the early questions we talked about

1110
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the episode, how they build this

1111
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: as not a love story but a story about love.

1112
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 1: Do you actually think this is a story about love,

1113
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: you know, because at the end we kind of are

1114
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: left with like this cliffhanger, so to speak, right about

1115
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: you know, the kind of staring off into the sunset.

1116
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,399
Speaker 1: We're not quite sure what's going to happen right there,

1117
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: not like writing, hands are like embracing. We just see

1118
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: them standing side by side as they are outside their house.

1119
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: So what do you think they are actually holding onto? Yeah,

1120
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: I think they're both holding onto versions of themselves at

1121
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: different parts of the relationship. I think it can be

1122
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 1: a story of love. I think they're at some point

1123
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: has been again love, affection, camaraderie, support there, particularly when

1124
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: they're in this similar industry that has its own trials

1125
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,040
Speaker 1: and tribulations to it. I think there can be a

1126
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: way in which when you are dating somebody in a

1127
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: similar field, but it can be loved. So, because I

1128
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 1: don't know more about them, I can't say that they

1129
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: don't love each other, but I do appreciate that differentiation

1130
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: of not being a love story in terms of how

1131
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: we romanticize relationships and how we romanticize repair in relationships,

1132
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: and how we romanticize how fights should look or not look,

1133
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: and how they should end and they should only last

1134
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 1: an hour or thirty minutes or something like that. So

1135
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: I think that it can be a version of love,

1136
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: but in the way in which it is now, in

1137
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: that argument, it's not sustainable in a healthy way. Can

1138
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: couples come out of that with some sudden significant work,

1139
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: ideally in therapy. Absolutely couples can come back from quote

1140
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 1: unquote worse than that, but it would take an actual

1141
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: commitment to it. So can they find a healthier love

1142
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: if they were able to commit to doing something different? Absolutely,

1143
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,399
Speaker 1: at any age get the best? Did we get the best? Yeah?

1144
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: Did we get the best glimpse of what what loving

1145
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: someone in a healthy way looks like? And how to

1146
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:02,879
Speaker 1: repair any of that? No, that we actually didn't even

1147
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: see any repair. We just saw the argument stop. And

1148
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: that is different from repair, right, Yeah, Because you know,

1149
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: I think repair could look lots of different ways. And

1150
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,399
Speaker 1: some people may have interpreted him finally seeing thank you

1151
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,720
Speaker 1: like as they went to bed that night, as a repair,

1152
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: but then actually was not a repair. That's not repair.

1153
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 1: That isn't that is not repair at all, that is

1154
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: not fighting, that is no longer fighting. But no longer

1155
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: fighting does not mean repair. So what might repair look

1156
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 1: like for them? Are the beginnings of a repair their beatings.

1157
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: Repair would have to come with acknowledgement of harm being

1158
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: said and done to each other, and the beginnings of

1159
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 1: repair would have to go back into their history to

1160
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: figure out how they got here. Right, it's it's nearly

1161
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 1: impossible to repair something when you're not getting the details

1162
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: of how we got here in the first place and

1163
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 1: how we got to that point. But helping them to

1164
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: see that this wasn't a one off, that this has

1165
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: come with a whole cycle of things, and helping them

1166
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,399
Speaker 1: to see that, oh, this is what I do when

1167
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: I feel like this, this is what you do when

1168
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: you feel like this, and then this is what we

1169
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: do next. That's the beginning of the repair process. But

1170
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: they've got to be able to step outside of it

1171
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 1: enough to be able to see what they do. So

1172
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: we call that a de escalation process. Right now, they're

1173
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: really really escalated, So more than likely when they come

1174
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,879
Speaker 1: in the first few sessions, they're gonna be at each

1175
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: other's next, right, and there's there's these might be the

1176
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:23,399
Speaker 1: couples where like I'm in there with like time out,

1177
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 1: time out, like I don't have a whistle, but hey

1178
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,439
Speaker 1: and virtual now, so I can't don't really jump in there,

1179
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: but there are couples that can get into it, and

1180
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: you can get really hostile really soon. So a lot

1181
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: of the work in the beginning of our work would

1182
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 1: look like de escalation. So when you start getting loud,

1183
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: that's me stopping the conversation, saying, hey, what's happening for you?

1184
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 1: Because I've noticed your tone of voice is changing. What's

1185
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: happening for you? When I'm noticing right that your chest

1186
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: is puffing up in session? Right now, can you tell

1187
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: me where you just went? Would you just hear her

1188
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: say that triggered that? Right? So I'm very very directive,

1189
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: and I will interrupt you in the beginning because there's

1190
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 1: no point you arguing the same way that you do

1191
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: out there. That's not helpful for you. But I will

1192
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 1: interrupt all these different moments where I see things get

1193
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: tipped off scale and slow you down so that you're

1194
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,800
Speaker 1: no longer talking about and responding to her, You're talking

1195
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: to me about what's happening for you, and she can

1196
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 1: bear witness to that, and then I'll process with her.

1197
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: But what's it like to hear him say this? Because

1198
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: normally what you see is the puffed up chest and

1199
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 1: you see him yelling and spitting and doing all this stuff.

1200
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: What's it like that when he when he slowed down

1201
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: and then said, oh, that's what I heard her say.

1202
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 1: What's it like to hear that? Because you don't ever

1203
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: see that part of him. So that's a lot of

1204
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: what's going to take place in the first few months.

1205
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 1: If not, it could go years, But the first few

1206
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: months of therapy, I will interrupt the whole process to

1207
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: slow down and really get you to build some insight

1208
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 1: into what you're responding to. That's how repair begins, with

1209
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 1: seeing your own part of the process. It feels like

1210
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: that's a really important distinction because I think oftentimes people

1211
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: comes a couple of therapy thinking the therapist is gonna

1212
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 1: like take a side and say this one was and

1213
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 1: this one was wrong. But that's definitely not what couple

1214
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: of therapy is. Nope, let me not do that, because

1215
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: I get boujee. Sometimes what a couple of therapy can

1216
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 1: ideally be right is not only a space where you

1217
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 1: are looking at the interaction between but it can also

1218
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: offer a lot of individual holding and learning and insight,

1219
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: which is why I really love e f T as

1220
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: a model, because it does a bit of both. It

1221
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: weaves couples in and out of their own work as

1222
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: well as the work that they can do in the

1223
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: middle of that. So so for us, oftentimes the couple

1224
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: is the client. No one is any kind of worse off.

1225
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: We're looking at the interaction between you two and the

1226
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 1: cycle between you two. Nobody's the problem. Nice. Nice. So

1227
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:41,439
Speaker 1: Dr A, can you tell us a little bit about

1228
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: your work? So I know you have a new group

1229
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: starting soon, So can you tell us a little bit

1230
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: about the work from your practice and where we can

1231
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: find you on social media and your website. Yes, and

1232
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 1: so the name of my practice is Ascension Behavioral Health

1233
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: and I am based in Atlanta, Georgia. I would say

1234
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: about a d eight percent of my work is with

1235
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: black people, so individuals, couples groups, and I really love

1236
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: doing couples work and I've built up I've built up

1237
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 1: a lot of that as part of my work in

1238
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: the past like three to five years using e f

1239
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: T and I specialize or kind of focus on mood disorders,

1240
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: oftentimes the ways in which anxiety concerns show up depressive

1241
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 1: symptoms by polar disorders, but also fusing that with how

1242
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: it intersects with identity, so race, gender, sexuality, religion, and

1243
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: how that factors into how you relate to the world,

1244
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: how safe you feel in the world, and how you

1245
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 1: get your needs meant So, as you know, I really

1246
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 1: love this work. I just began offering a group focused

1247
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: on helping Black women to understand and to practice boundary

1248
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: setting and all parts of their lives. Um so boundaries

1249
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 1: with yourself, physical boundaries, time, energetic boundaries, as well as

1250
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 1: how you relate to others, assert your needs in various relationships,

1251
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: and feel kind of strengthened enough to be able to

1252
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: use your voice to get your needs met across the board,

1253
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: so with your family, with your partner, with your children,

1254
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: in workspaces, with your peers, and so really looking at

1255
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: how asserting yourself and how being clear about your unique

1256
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: needs in relationships can really help deepen your relationships, create

1257
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: a lot of vulnerability, but also help you feel healthier

1258
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 1: in your relationships and feel like you could show up

1259
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 1: more fully so that is a six week group that

1260
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 1: begins February sevent on a Wednesday, and that will be

1261
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: for ten women. That'll be the first cohort of the group,

1262
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: and then I'll be running a series of cohorts for

1263
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 1: the rest of the year. Perfect And where can we

1264
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 1: find that information? Yeah, so the best place to find

1265
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: me is on Instagram. I am doctor Underscore Ayanna Underscore

1266
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: A that's d R Underscore A Y A N N

1267
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: a UM And the name of my practice and my

1268
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: website is Ascension Behavioral Health A S C N S

1269
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: I O N behavioral Health. And information about speaking, gigs

1270
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: and work that I do with corporations and in various

1271
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: companies around mental health, lack, mental health and wellness can

1272
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 1: be found on that website. Perfectly. We will be sure

1273
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 1: to include all of that in the show notes. Always

1274
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 1: a pleasure to have you here in the guest share

1275
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 1: with us. Dr A. Absolutely, this is a great conversation.

1276
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: And put that movie to rest though we wait, yeah,

1277
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: we're done training videos, but after that, I'm done, We're

1278
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 1: wrapping it up. Thank you. I'm so glad Dr Abrahams

1279
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 1: was able to join us for today's conversation to learn

1280
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 1: more about her and to check out the new group

1281
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: she's running in her practice, visit the show notes at

1282
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session and please

1283
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Speaker 1: re shure to text two sisters right now and tell

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Speaker 1: them to check out the episode. Don't forget that. If

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Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure

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Speaker 1: to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black

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Speaker 1: Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to

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Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic or just be in community

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Speaker 1: with other sisters, come on over and join us in

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Speaker 1: the Yellow Couch Collective. It's our clod, the corner of

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Speaker 1: the Internet design just for black women. You can join

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Speaker 1: us at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash y

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Speaker 1: c C. Thank you all so much for joining me

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Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continue in this

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Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.