1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Democrats have voted with the Republicans 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: to pass a transgender sports fan Good work everyone, We 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: have such a great show for you today. And by 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: the way, I mean good work, bad work, don't do that. 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: The New Yorkers Evan os Nos stops by to talk 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: about where we are an American democracy. Spoiler no, We're good. 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: And then we'll talk to Slate's Dahlia Lettwick about Pam 10 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: Bondi's confirmation hearing. 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 2: But first the News, Somali, As you stated at the 12 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: top of the show of the News, it's just going 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 2: great today. The confirmation hearings continue. But you know, there 14 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: was a moment yesterday after retape with Mark Wayne Mullen 15 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: defending peak takest that I think deserves a little more attention. 16 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: Republican Mark Wayne Mullen is from Oklahoma. He is very 17 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: much the Marjorie Taylor Green of the Senate, taking any 18 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: chance to defend one of Trump's people. He defended hegseeth 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: against charge of drunkenness and womanizing by suggesting that his 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: colleagues were equally culpable. How many Senators have shown up 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 1: drunk to vote at night? Have any of you guys 22 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: asked them to step down and resign from their job? 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: By the way, as someone who's sober since they were nineteen, yes, 24 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: let's do it. Let's I'm happy. If you're an active alcoholic, 25 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: perhaps you should not be running our government. And don't 26 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: tell me you haven't seen it, because I know you have. 27 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: And how many senators you know have gotten a divorce 28 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: for cheating on their wives? Again, kick all those people out. 29 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: But also, more importantly, the idea, you know, we've gone 30 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: down this rabbit hole with Trump where since nothing is 31 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: disqualifying for Trump, the thought process with a lot of 32 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: these Republicans is nothing is disqualifying for his nominees. Very annoying, 33 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: very crazy, and also I might add just completely and disturbing. 34 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: But this is where we are so welcome. That's pretty 35 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: much how these hearings are going. 36 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of other fun stuff, turns out that doing 37 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: bad things in Magaworld gets you much bigger book deals. 38 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: This is Christy Noom from the Great State of South Dakota. 39 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: She she had to file some financial disclosures because she 40 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: is going to be Trump's pick for Homeland Security Secretary. 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: She has confirmations coming on Friday. In her disclosures, she 42 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: revealed that she made one hundred and thirty nine thousand 43 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: dollars advance for her twenty twenty four book. That was 44 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: the book where she talked a lot and in great 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: detail about shooting her dog and burying it in the 46 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: gravel pick. Again, this continues to be a baffling kind 47 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: of play. Why writing about you know, it was America. 48 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: All we like are dogs, right, And I mean that's 49 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: the one thing all Americans can agree on is that 50 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: dogs are great. Except South Dakota Governor Christy Nome does 51 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: not think that anyway. 52 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: The question really is is are there more secrets buried 53 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: in this new book? 54 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: Yeah? And our first in the gravel pit. 55 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: Yes. On that note, I'll move to another subject to 56 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: save us from our bad jokes. So let's see, we've 57 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: seen merk Garland be quite toothless. We've talked that one 58 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: to death. Hopefully we will not think about him much 59 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 2: anymore in the next week. But the SEC is now 60 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: going to demonstrate what their teeth look like as they 61 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: sue Elon Musk over Twitter related securities violations for his 62 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 2: forty four billion dollars. 63 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: Purchase, the purchase of Twitter now called X. What I 64 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: think is interesting about this is we had wondered how 65 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: Elan had gotten so maga and why he had gotten 66 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: so maga, and this sort of provides a really interesting motivation. Right, 67 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: So Elon knew that he was going to get sued 68 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: by the securities regulators. He knew that was coming. He 69 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: probably has known this for a while. While this is 70 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: going to be the final act of Gary Gensler, who 71 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: he has a department chair, who he's been raging about forever, 72 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: and he's saying that Mosk violated securities laws by amassing 73 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: a large doc position in the social media company without 74 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: filing the proper notification. The complaint said he had waited 75 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: eleven days before filing the required disclosures with the sec 76 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: So this is this is really like the kind of 77 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: thing that Martha Stewart went to jail over, right. 78 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: A lot of people have calling to jail over this. 79 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 80 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: So it's one of those administrations that really like said 81 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: detail sewn up properly. 82 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is where we are. It's incredibly unsurprising, perhaps. 83 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: But that's where we are, SAMAI. Mister Trump has done 84 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: a lot of braggadocious things about getting the war in 85 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 2: Israel to stop. But it's looking like there may be 86 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 2: a ceasefire, right. 87 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it looks like there's going to be a 88 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: a ceasefire for Israel. I don't know what that looks 89 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: like exactly. I don't know. We don't really know a 90 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,679 Speaker 1: lot of the details. This is sort of breaking news, 91 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: but it looks like Biden world has negotiated seasfire right 92 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: before the presidency ended a little too late for all 93 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: of those people in Gaza and also many of the hostages, 94 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 1: but it looks like we have. 95 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 3: Some kind of seasfire. 96 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: Evan Osnos is a writer for The New Yorker and 97 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: the author of Wildland, The Making of America's Fury. Welcome 98 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: to Fast Politics, Evan Osnos, thank. 99 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 3: You very much, Molly jump Past. I'm pleased to be here. 100 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: I am so excited to have you because I am 101 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: a longtime listener of the New Yorker podcast, which is excellent, 102 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: which has you. 103 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 3: Bless you, thank you. 104 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: I'm not even a listener, I'm like a super fan, 105 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: and so I do things like write your boss emails 106 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: about my hottest takes about what you guys should be doing, 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: which I'm sure he loves. 108 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: We've gotten some of them. They've been on passed to 109 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 3: use the term in the journalism business. And I don't 110 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 3: mean to dangle something, but you might have some very 111 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 3: cheap and disposable swag coming your way if this keeps up. 112 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: My god, you have never known anyone to be more 113 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: impressed with free stuff than me. And you would think, 114 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: as someone who is not you know, has not just 115 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: fallen off the turnip truck, that I would be cynical 116 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: about getting free stuff, but in fact, I am just 117 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: so incredibly impressed by it. So send me free. 118 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 3: Step I'm with you. I'm sitting here taping in my 119 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 3: closet wearing swag from an ungodly number of entities. That's 120 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: just how I roll. I'm clad in swag. There we 121 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: are so. 122 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: Just for the very few people who don't read The 123 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: New Yorker but listen to this podcast, Evan is one 124 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: of the smartest political writers I think, period paragraph and 125 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: what I love about the podcast you're on, which if 126 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: anyone is looking for another podcast after they've listened to 127 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: me four times a week. It's not you know that 128 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: you and Jane Mayer, who is just a wonderful human 129 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: being but also just have been doing this and gets 130 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: the scoops, and Susan Glasser who really knows her stuff, 131 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: and just to hear the three of you talk about stuff, 132 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, talk about things that are really important historical 133 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: references that nobody else remembers. 134 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 3: Well, I thank you. You know those two are as 135 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: we say national treasures, I might be a regional treasure, 136 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: which is a less coveted title, but honestly, it is 137 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 3: a genuine treat to get on there every week. And they, 138 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 3: the three of us, if you put our meager brains together, 139 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: you get some assemblage of memory of politics over the 140 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 3: last generation or so, so that we try to talk 141 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 3: about that a bit too. 142 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, very smart stuff. So anyway, here we are in 143 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: the middle of the confirmation hearings. I'm just going to 144 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: read you the title of a email I got last 145 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: night from Politico, which really, you know, I don't read 146 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: every email I get when I get all of these emails, 147 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: but this one it just I was somewhere and I 148 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: just it stabbed me in the heart. The death of 149 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: the Senate confirmation hearing. Yeah, discuss. 150 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 3: Look, I have to say I too have been known 151 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: to miss the occasional email newsletter. However, that one did 152 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 3: catch my attention to because I was listening yesterday to 153 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: the Hegseth confirmation hearing, because I have a vibrant socialize, 154 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 3: but also because there is something true in that description 155 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: that there has always been something theatrical about the confirmation process. 156 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 3: But part of that theater has been at least the 157 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 3: suggestion that the person who's testifying is going to try 158 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 3: to answer the question, is going to try you know, 159 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 3: of course they do the usual evasive historyonics, but that 160 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: there will be some ultimate effort to try to satis 161 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: by the public's expectation that information will be asked and answered. 162 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 3: And I think we've just entered this phase now where 163 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 3: it is like a series of parallel, non intersecting performances, 164 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 3: some of which I've found actually quite interesting. I mean 165 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: to see Alyssa Slotkin or Tim Kaine, that was good 166 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 3: hearing conduct. That's what you. 167 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: Do, Tim, and then Tammy Duckworth. 168 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 3: Tammy Duckworth I've been fascinated by for years. I mean, 169 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 3: I started my career at the Chicago Tribune. So there's 170 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 3: sort of some Illinois in the blood. And I think 171 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 3: there's a way in which her life, the fact that 172 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 3: she was injured while serving overseas during the American Wars 173 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 3: of the twenty first century, makes her a uniquely powerful 174 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 3: voice in this moment. So I found that to be 175 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: just sort of almost thinking as a playwright or something, 176 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 3: as a novelist, there's something really extraordinary which ultimately drives 177 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 3: home how frustrating it was to see heg Seth really 178 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 3: not acknowledge the dignity of this process and to just 179 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 3: say now I'm going to just kind of Fox and 180 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 3: Friends my way through it. 181 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: Agreed. I also think like this is a moment where 182 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: Democrats need to adapt. I say this as a partisan. 183 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: One of the things I truly hate about this current 184 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: reality is that there were people I knew who were like, 185 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: this will be good for business, and I was like, 186 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: it will be until there's the business is shut down, right, 187 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: And I actually didn't even say that because I said, 188 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: you know, you can't play chicken with things like American democracy. 189 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: And what I see as I'm watching this is like 190 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: democrats need to adapt to whatever this is they're not 191 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: going to necessarily be able. I mean, they have a 192 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: math problem, right that Republicans have a hardened maga Senate 193 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: with very few normal senators left. 194 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to tell you you've hit on one 195 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 3: of the things that I have privately, I don't think 196 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: I've talked about it, but privately been kind of enraged about, 197 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: which is that there is a pretty sizable chunk of 198 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 3: the business, the journalism business, that is actually eager for 199 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: the fight to be back, for the Trump years, to 200 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 3: allow the rage to get back into the news, meaning 201 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 3: for readers and viewers and listeners to tune in out 202 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 3: of sheer contempt. And I find that to be a 203 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 3: disastrous kind of cynicism. The idea that this is a 204 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 3: good thing for us as an industry or as a 205 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 3: country is a big piece of my fundamental beef with 206 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 3: political journalism. You know, it's a business I'm in, but 207 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 3: I find that piece of it to be kind of, 208 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 3: in some ways the pure distillation of what it is 209 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 3: that Americans actually really hate about us, and their right 210 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: to hate that just because we talk about it as 211 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 3: a game sometimes doesn't mean that it should be. And 212 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 3: I think that people pick up on how distasteful that 213 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 3: is because it has real impact in their lives. So 214 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 3: I'm with you on this one. I find that to 215 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: be a real problem. 216 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's really disgusting, and I also think 217 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: it's really how wet here Like Elon Musk has a 218 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: tweet that he loves I have not been subject to 219 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: it yet, but it's coming where he says, you do 220 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: not hate the mainstream media enough, right, Like, this is 221 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: the fever dream of all of Silicon Valley is to 222 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: get the people against the media because we are the 223 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: you know, by reporting on the corruption, we are the corruption. 224 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: But the larger question is the gamification of what is 225 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: happening to our federal government is real. 226 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's interesting I've been recently. I was 227 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 3: going back and looking at a piece that I wrote 228 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 3: some years ago about Mark Zuckerberg. I did a profile 229 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 3: of him back in like twenty nineteen, and what's amazing 230 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 3: to see now in contrast to where he is is 231 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 3: At the time, he was still engaged in a pantomime 232 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 3: of respect for the press that he was for one thing. 233 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 3: After much haranguing and harassment and stalking, he'd eventually agreed 234 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,359 Speaker 3: to this sit down to some interview and then ultimately 235 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,319 Speaker 3: but it was clear that he was sort of doing 236 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 3: it through grated teeth. And now we're in an era 237 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: where he and his cohort Elon Musk to some degree 238 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 3: some of the others, that they just refuse to acknowledge 239 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 3: that the press is a meaningful part of power and 240 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 3: of conversation. What they do acknowledge of it is that 241 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 3: they have contempt for it. I remember actually a billionaire 242 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 3: in Silicon Valley who said to me a couple of 243 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 3: years ago, he said, do you think that anybody out 244 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: here is ever going to agree to a New York 245 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 3: or profile again? And I thought that was such an 246 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 3: interesting tell, because they were beginning to back out of 247 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 3: the existing call it, the existing apparatus of accountability, and 248 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: the press is a part of that. And we now 249 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 3: are living in the world in which they don't want 250 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 3: any part of that. And so they're actively as you 251 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 3: described with Musk's tweet, you know, as he says, we 252 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 3: are the media now. I mean that is their moment 253 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 3: of feeling free, feeling that they've thrown off the yoke 254 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 3: of that kind of visibility and scrutiny. I will say 255 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: one thing, though, which is, you know, this is laying, 256 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 3: but true history is long, and these periods don't tend 257 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 3: to endure for very long. That they may find themselves 258 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 3: under a new kind of scrutiny and they may not 259 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 3: like that much. 260 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, by the way we are the media now, 261 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: it's like, you really want to be us because you 262 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: don't want to be as you know, the billionaire on 263 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: his jet, who's who is the richest man in the world, 264 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: is like, I'm going to take down. It's like stepping 265 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: on an ant. 266 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 3: Well, which is a fascinating kind of asymmetry of power. 267 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 3: I mean, that's one of the things that drives them crazy, 268 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 3: is this idea that somebody who makes in a lifetime 269 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 3: what they'll make in a day now is able to 270 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 3: be sort of nettlesome in the way that a kind 271 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 3: of a gnat flies in the face. But I think 272 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 3: it's a reality, and that's one of the things that 273 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 3: they've gone after now in a profound way. And I'm 274 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 3: not quite sure where that leads. I mean, I really don't. 275 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 3: I do think we're at a real moment of collision though, 276 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: between what Politico discription today is the billionaire boys Club, 277 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: the guys who are going to be attending the inauguration 278 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 3: as part of the pro Trump team, and then and 279 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 3: the press. So that is one of the things I'm 280 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 3: most conscious of over the next couple of months and 281 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: then going into this administration is is how much does 282 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 3: a musk or somebody like him, actually how much is 283 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 3: he able to accommodate himself to the realities of politics, 284 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 3: of the press, of things like that, or does he 285 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 3: just end up getting self ejected and does he just 286 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 3: go back and say the hell with this, I'm going 287 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 3: back to my cars and my rockets. 288 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that is I think the big question. And 289 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: we see him sort of cycling through different countries, right 290 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,359 Speaker 1: like I thought, well, he's really invested now in Doge 291 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: and then it's like and also German elections, and yeah, 292 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: it's like and I sleep at night, so I don't know. 293 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: But none of these men sleep at all. Trump doesn't sleep, 294 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: Elon doesn't sleep. None of these people sleep. If I 295 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: get less than six and a half hours, I'm like 296 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: a zombie. 297 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 3: But can I give you a data point on this? 298 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 3: A fascinating one from my you know, as you I 299 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 3: spend part of my life thinking about China. And writing 300 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: about China and so on. And there's a fabulous little 301 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: detail from Chinese history that at this absolutely crucial moment 302 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: in Chinese history when Mao Zedong undertook this massive purge 303 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 3: that ended up being a signpost to catastrophe. Later followed 304 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 3: all kinds of purges and led to the Culture Revolution 305 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 3: and so on. But when you later went back and 306 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 3: looked at the transcript of what he said about his decisions, 307 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 3: he said, I was tossing and turning all night. I 308 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: couldn't decide what to do about this, and so I 309 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 3: took a pill. And then I still couldn't sleep. So 310 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 3: I took another pill, and I still couldn't sleep, So 311 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: I took yet another pill. And what we discover is 312 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,479 Speaker 3: that like actually a fair piece of China's most terrible dialogebollical, 313 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 3: kind of darkest moments of authoritarian madness, we're really the 314 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 3: product of pharmaceutical experimentation. Part of it insomniac. 315 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: I shouldn't laugh, Well, it. 316 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 3: Doesn't bode well for us. No, it's a I mean, 317 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 3: you have to laugh in a dark way. That The 318 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 3: reason I think that's interesting is that the interplay between 319 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 3: the private idiosyncrasies or frailties or madnesses of these men 320 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 3: at the top. They are men of our system. Will matter, 321 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 3: they will shape the course. You know, human history is 322 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 3: shaped partly by events and partly by human nature, something 323 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 3: my dad often says, and I think he's right about that. 324 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's funny because sleep is such a 325 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: trope in my life. Anyway. The point is, I'm about 326 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: to like launch into stories for my memoir, which isn't 327 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: out till June. So and the kennel does not like it. 328 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 3: So well, I'm excited for that, by the way, And 329 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 3: I do think as an as a fellow insomniac, that's 330 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 3: like hot content. I'm excited. 331 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: It's very short, you tell it's very Somebody said it's 332 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: very quick read, but it has very dark topics like 333 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: death and mostly deaths and people getting cancer, et cetera. 334 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: And so they were saying it's like a Jewish beach read. 335 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 3: Well, I'm a fan of that type, and I will 336 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 3: see that is I do think people want short right now, 337 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 3: and along the lines of great short Jewish beach reads 338 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 3: about death. Can I recommend Calvin Trillin's amazing book about Alice, 339 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 3: which was about his beloved in ly wife. You know, 340 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 3: it is one of the all time greats. 341 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: Calvin he was known bud right was exactly Yeah. Yeah, 342 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: so but anyway, just back to the death of American democracy. Sure, 343 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: so my theory of the case is that we need 344 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 1: to see democrats adapt to this new trumpefied world. And 345 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: so I think what should happen is And I was 346 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: looking at the Tammy Duckworth conversation today because I thought 347 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: it was well done, but there was an oppert tunity 348 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: that she missed. So she asked him right here, she 349 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: is blackhawk helicopter pilot lost her legs, she says to him, 350 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: and really knows. So shit says, can you name this 351 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: is these Asian this association of Southern Asion. Yeah, and 352 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: he says, I know, we have allies in South Korea 353 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: and Japan. 354 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 3: Right, and Australia he named Australia. Also not a member of. 355 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: Australia the United Kingdom in the US. Okay, So none 356 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 1: of that is. 357 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 3: Right, right, correct, You're right? 358 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: And more importantly, because I just looked this up, it's 359 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: not even close, right, the countries in it are. I'm 360 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: sure you know this. This is different between the New 361 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: York But they are you know, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos. 362 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's Southeast Asia essentially. 363 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: Right, it's the Philipines, function, Yeah, Vietnam, Thailand. So she 364 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: says to him, none of those three countries are in it. 365 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: And then she says, I suggest you do a little homework. Now, 366 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: here's my question for you. In a previous world, you 367 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: could have said that and it would have been like zing. 368 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: But my question now is should she have just kept 369 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: pushing and trying to get him, trying to show how 370 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: little he knew in order to sort of enter into 371 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: the public record that he didn't really know what he 372 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: was talking about. 373 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 3: It's true, I happen to say I loved that approach. 374 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 3: It's what what I thought of as the sort of 375 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 3: Katie Kirk Sarah Palin approach where you know, you got 376 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 3: to hear Pete Hegsas say, I love all the all 377 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 3: the all the aussion countries. You have any specific ways 378 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 3: all of them? 379 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 4: I read? 380 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 3: You know. So in a way, that was she did 381 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 3: real work on behalf of the American public there by 382 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 3: exposing what he doesn't know. And you know, because he'll 383 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 3: make reference to these aussion alliances or these these agreements 384 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 3: without having the foggiest notion of the time. So I 385 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 3: do think you're right it would have been productive to 386 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: continue down this kind of essentially remedial education component of 387 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 3: the hearing and to demonstrate what he how much has 388 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 3: slipped through his tender grasp. But I thought that was 389 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 3: very smart, That was effective, and it'll reverberate in Asia. 390 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 3: That will work. You know, that's going to play on 391 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 3: all kinds of Asian programming for a while, particularly when 392 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 3: he gets on a plane and flies over there. He's 393 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 3: going to have to suit of practically really bone up, 394 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 3: like Encyclopedia Brown on ossion time comes. 395 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: Clearly a lot of Democrats were mad about him saying 396 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: that women can't serve as the daughter of a second 397 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: wave feminist. I get their irritation. I mean, it's a 398 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: very fucked up thing to say, But my question is 399 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: more like, is yelling at him about that going to 400 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: move the needle. I almost wonder if you had pushed 401 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: harder on the timeline. And this was something I thought 402 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: that was smart that we saw Senator Tim Kaine do. 403 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, the once and future next Vice President United States. 404 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, where he did more of a sort 405 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: of adultery time table discussion. I thought they did better 406 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 1: when they went in small and worse when they went 407 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: in big. 408 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. I thought that the one area that in some 409 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 3: ways blended those two was when Elizabeth Warren asked if 410 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 3: he would commit to not taking a job in the 411 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 3: defense industry after serving as Secretary of Defense, which is 412 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 3: something that he has called for among generals that he 413 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 3: said they shouldn't be able to do it for ten years. 414 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 3: And she hammered him on this, She said, yeah, though 415 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: you called on this for generals, but what about for yourself? 416 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 3: And he refused to commit to that. He ended up saying, well, 417 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: I'm not a general, which I thought it might have 418 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 3: been useful to point out you certainly are not. And 419 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 3: that also is a way of demonstrating whether he has 420 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 3: enough history and stature and experience to be suited for 421 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 3: this job. So I look, I think part of this 422 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 3: gets back to what one of the early things you mentioned, 423 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 3: which is this interesting question whether the structure and the 424 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,959 Speaker 3: mechanics of the hearing process are collapsing. And part of 425 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 3: going after him out adultery about his contempt for women 426 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 3: in combat is, you know, some of this was about 427 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,959 Speaker 3: reminding people of the childless cat ladies stuff. That was 428 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 3: quite effective, I think for a while in focusing on 429 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 3: the vulnerabilities of this administration's ideas, and this is in 430 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 3: its way an extension of that. But ultimately I do 431 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 3: think that the most durable revelations really were when Tammy 432 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 3: Duckworth showed that this is a man who is really 433 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 3: not at all prepared to even look up the right 434 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 3: part of the encyclopedia when it comes to how to 435 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 3: do this job. 436 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was really interesting because he was in 437 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: some ways so well prepared. 438 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's very smooth, you know. I interviewed him a 439 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 3: couple years ago when I was doing a story about 440 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 3: Dan Bongino, the right wing talker. 441 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: Everyone who listens to this podcast knows exactly who. 442 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 3: Yes, I know that, But as part of that I 443 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 3: spoke to Hegseth and I remember at the time he 444 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 3: was a TV host, and I just remember thinking, I 445 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: don't think I've heard the last of this guy. He's 446 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 3: going to be back around, because it was there was 447 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 3: a kind of confident smoothness about his contempt for so 448 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 3: much of what actually is familiar about how power is 449 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 3: held accountable in Washington, and he said to me at 450 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 3: one point, he said, you know, look, I used to 451 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 3: carry a weapon in the military, and now I'm involved 452 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: in information warfare and correct he said, Bungino is one 453 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 3: of our generals. So there was that was the first 454 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 3: hint that that was a world that I hadn't previously 455 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 3: understood the terrain of and they but they were already 456 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 3: in a way deployed on it. 457 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: Evan Osnos, I hope you will come. 458 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 3: Back, my pleasure, Molly, I'd love to come back. 459 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: Dahlia Luthwat is a senior editor at SLAT and the 460 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: author of Lady Justice, Women, The Law, and the Battle 461 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: to Save America. Welcome Back, Too Fast Politics, Dahlia. 462 00:24:59,000 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 5: I'm Molly. 463 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: I like I love you so much, and I listened 464 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: to your podcast Amakis and I'm a special member. I 465 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 1: listened to the special episodes too, so I really am 466 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: both a you know whatever anyway, a superman. 467 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 4: My children's or Sadansha. Thanks you, and I'm very sorry 468 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 4: because I feel like the show has taken a like 469 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 4: really broken tigger turn in the last couple of weeks. 470 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 4: But I think as have all the shows. 471 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I. 472 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: Think we all feel pretty much like that. So I'm 473 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: hoping you could talk to Oz about we are in 474 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: the middle of the hearing fiasco. Let's talk. 475 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 5: Yeah. 476 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 4: I made the mistake of watching Pete Hegseth yesterday, which 477 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 4: just broke me because it was like Brett Cavanaugh two 478 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 4: point zero right, it was pay no attention. 479 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 1: To Brett Kavanaugh. He actually got upset, whereas Hegsats was like, 480 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: this is a speed bump by my way to better things. 481 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm just thinking of like 482 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 4: the process problem, which is you have this quote unquote 483 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 4: FBI report that doesn't quote unquote interview any of the 484 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 4: alleged victims. And then you're like, I mean, he keeps 485 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 4: saying this thing. I don't want to like perseverate on this, Molly. 486 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 4: But he keeps saying that he was exonerated or somehow 487 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 4: exculpated or cleared of the alleged sexual drunken sexual assault. 488 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: He was never. 489 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 4: Cleared of anything. They didn't The fact that you are 490 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 4: not criminally prosecuted does not mean there was a legal 491 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 4: process that cleared you. And I guess I just feel 492 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 4: like I don't want to go down this rabbit hole. 493 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 4: But like, oh my god, I was like, yes, I 494 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 4: was a sinner, but saved by the love of a 495 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 4: good woman. But also I will not tell you any 496 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 4: of the things I ostensibly did wrong, like gaslight me harder. 497 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 4: Which good woman was that his wife, his wife who 498 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 4: he hexeth, was like very very very effusive about the 499 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 4: ways in which he has now redeemed, and he mentioned 500 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 4: the Lord many many times. And then you know his wife, 501 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 4: who he forgot to like say, is also like raising 502 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,959 Speaker 4: our blended marriage family and taking care of my children. 503 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 4: But it's just this idea that women can't serve in 504 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 4: the military, stipulated, and yet women's only job is to 505 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 4: lift up, you know, alleged assaulters and abusers of alcohol 506 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 4: and runners of charitable veterans organization into the ground. And 507 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 4: all you need to know is that my wife loves me. 508 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 5: And I don't know. I feel like I'm in. 509 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 4: Some weird like medieval you know, testimonial thing as opposed 510 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 4: to are you fit to run the Pentagon? So that 511 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 4: was crazy making, But that wasn't your question. You asked 512 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 4: about Pambondi. 513 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: Right, well, it is fresh in our minds, that insane hearing. 514 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: I did notice there was a lot of Christian There 515 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: were a lot of Christian nationalist undertones yesterday, And in fact, 516 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: he wanted to guard Biden's inauguration but wasn't allowed to 517 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: because of his tattoo. That was a surprising I don't 518 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: know how you fact check that, but I wondered I 519 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: would have liked to have seen a fact check on that. 520 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: And perhaps it is true, it seems bizarre. 521 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 4: I mean, I guess I just the last thing I 522 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 4: could possibly say about Pete Hegseeth is that he is 523 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 4: so manifestly unfit for this job and so unbelievably materially 524 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 4: not in a position. I mean, you couldn't answer just 525 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 4: simple questions about the job in the military, and yet 526 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 4: he is so certain of his entitlement to it. And 527 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 4: to have that guy going on and on about wokeness 528 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 4: and DEI and women in the military and lowered standards 529 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 4: for minority it's just like utterly crazy making to hear 530 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 4: a person simultaneously say this job is mine because I'm 531 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 4: like a white Fox News guy. 532 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 5: And I want it. 533 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 4: And anyone else who has ever succeeded in the military 534 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 4: as a person of color, or a gay service member 535 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 4: or a woman only got it because standards were lowered. 536 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 4: I want to live in his world like I just 537 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 4: for five minutes, want to sit in that level of 538 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 4: self regard and entitlement. 539 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to read you a quote from the Financial Times, 540 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: which I think speaks very much to what we witnessed. 541 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: I feel liberated, said a top banker. We can say 542 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: retard and pussy without the fear of getting canceled. Dot 543 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: dot dot. It's a new dawn, right. 544 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 4: Anonymously, not courageous enough to say it. Listen, we are 545 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 4: in some kind of crazy, upside downy world where as 546 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 4: long as like Mark Zuckerberg feels liberated, it doesn't matter 547 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 4: what happens to the rest of us. And I don't know, 548 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 4: I mean, I you know. 549 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 5: It was. 550 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 4: It was very impressive, as it always is, to see 551 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 4: extraordinary dams on that committee with Hegsaff and again today 552 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 4: extraordinary deems on the Senate Judiciary Committee with Pam Bondy 553 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 4: trying to kind of. 554 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 5: Center over and over and over again. 555 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 4: Look like these are the real stakes, Like stop saying 556 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 4: woke and stop saying deep state, and like understand that 557 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 4: the greatest threat to the United States of America is 558 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 4: not wokeness in the military. And it is not, you know, 559 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 4: all due respect to Pam Bondy the search of mar 560 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 4: al Lago, uh, says Chuck Grassley of you know, for 561 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 4: Donald Trump's papers that he. 562 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 5: Refused to turn over. 563 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 4: It's such a small, cramped vision of what actual existential 564 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 4: threats are that it makes your head explode. And it is, nevertheless, 565 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 4: I think, really pretty cool to watch Senate Democrats say 566 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 4: over and over and over again like these are the stakes, 567 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 4: these are the stakes. I don't know if it breaks through, 568 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 4: I don't know. 569 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I wish they would be a little more 570 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: calculating about how they do it. There's only so much 571 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: they can do, do you know what I mean? 572 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 5: Yes, And this has always been like my critique. 573 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 4: I've watched so many Judiciary committee hearings, and there's a 574 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 4: way in which everybody is kind of free range, you know, freestyling, doing. 575 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: Their exactly and I don't think people should be doing that. 576 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: I think they should stop and be like, we have 577 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: a very small window here. 578 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 5: Correct. 579 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 4: And also, you know, always the problem always always in 580 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 4: these hearings, you know. Or just an hour before you 581 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 4: and I talked, BONDI was asked, what did you mean 582 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 4: when you said you were going to prosecute the prosecutors, 583 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 4: and she, you know, her first take is and she 584 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 4: said this over and over again about cash Betel and 585 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 4: you know, his claims that he was going to have 586 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 4: an enemy's list and the FBI was going to go 587 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 4: after them. And there seems to be some kind of 588 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 4: like television immunity, like something that was said on TV 589 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 4: we're not supposed to take seriously. But then her answer 590 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 4: to like prosecuting the prosecutors, which she said on television 591 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 4: literally was well, the end of that quote was I 592 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 4: will only prosecute the prosecutors if bad, as like the 593 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 4: qualifier if bad makes it okay. And what made me 594 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 4: nuts was the follow up question is please define bad, 595 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 4: miss Bondi. And it didn't been for them, No, didn't happen. 596 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 5: Wasn't sad? 597 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 4: Like does bad mean somebody who doesn't believe? 598 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 5: As she that was the other thing. 599 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 4: Mollie, oh my god, straight up asked like, did Trump 600 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 4: in fact win the twenty twenty election? She can't answer it. 601 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 4: Her answer is Biden's president. 602 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm maysign Well, they're so brave, but they're really 603 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: not very brave, are they? 604 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 5: Not so brave. 605 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 4: You and I have talked about this a million times, 606 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 4: but I think we are in this like really frightening 607 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 4: move from like the executive presidency. 608 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 5: You know that the immunity decision. 609 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 4: You know, Trump has all, you know, power to this 610 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 4: really scary thing in both Hegseth's hearing and Bondi's, which is, Oh, 611 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,959 Speaker 4: I don't mean the executive I mean Donald Trump personally 612 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 4: is perfect and like the degree to which they are 613 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 4: willing to use these hearings to bend the knee to him. 614 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 4: This isn't about the executive branch or the presidency. This 615 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 4: is about Donald Trump. And if you can't say the sentence, yeah, 616 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 4: he lost the election. Of course she can't say it 617 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 4: because she was part of the denialism right she was 618 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 4: on the ground in Pennsylvania trying to steal the election. 619 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 4: But I just think this is no longer about the 620 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 4: office of the President of the United States. We are 621 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 4: now seeing people Hegseth did it yesterday too, just effusively 622 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 4: saying that if Trump wants to break the law, that 623 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 4: would be okay. 624 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: I want to go back. So we got Bondie, We 625 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: got lots of different hearings going. They have Russ Bott, 626 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: who I actually think is probably the scariest of that crew, 627 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: and he's going to sail right through. 628 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 4: Right, And maybe a good thing to say here is 629 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 4: and we really saw this. I mean, I think like 630 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 4: he is in fact terrifying. But I think what we 631 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 4: saw with HEG. Sath was the template, which is he 632 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 4: was supposed to be the guy who got the roughest ride. 633 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: HEG. 634 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 4: Sath right credibly accused of multiple abuses against women. You know, 635 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 4: ran his charitable organizations financially into the ground. My friend 636 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 4: Rebecca Traster and yours like wrote this week, you know 637 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 4: he hasn't managed this staff the size of an Applebee's 638 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 4: much less, you know, the size of the US military. 639 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,439 Speaker 5: Why is he going to sail through? 640 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 4: And I think the answer is we were told right 641 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 4: about Joni Ernst. We were told, like anybody who doesn't 642 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 4: support him, Trump is going to call his friend Elon 643 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 4: Musk and have that primary. And I think what you're 644 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 4: saying about seeing people sail through, even people who look 645 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 4: there was always this fanciful notion that like, only you know, 646 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 4: they're only going to deffect on two or three people, right, 647 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 4: That was the Matt Gates theory that, oh, we've only 648 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 4: got about three people they'll defect on. And I don't 649 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 4: know where that came from, but I think the minute 650 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 4: you're getting threatened with, you know, a high dollar account primary, 651 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 4: everybody's falling in line for everyone. And what's really creepy 652 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 4: about all of these hearings is that the truly terrifying 653 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 4: ones like you know, Robert Kennedy and Tulsea Gabbard, and 654 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 4: I would say Cash Patel and. 655 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: Cash Baatel I think is the scariest. 656 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 4: But yes, they're getting treated exactly the same as like 657 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 4: Ron de Santis. 658 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so I would say that's why I 659 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: think Democrats should try as much as possible to sort 660 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: of make a play and figure out who sort of 661 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: focus on who is the scariest and go for that, 662 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? 663 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 4: And I think that some of these are existential. Right, 664 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,320 Speaker 4: You've got Cash Betel swanning around first of all, lying 665 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 4: about things like Donald Trump declassified documents with his brain, right, 666 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 4: like you've got like serious, serious problems, and I mean, 667 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 4: Telsey Gabbert, you know these are existential. In my view, 668 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,959 Speaker 4: I think exp is existential and to have it all 669 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 4: sort of slopped together. As you know, we're going to 670 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 4: go into every single hearing kind of sort of loaded 671 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 4: for bear, but not making, as you said, a concerted, 672 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 4: unified across the board's effort to disqualify somebody or to 673 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 4: at least really make a point about what the stakes are. 674 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 4: And I think that there's just again, I know you 675 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 4: and I talk about this all the time, Molly, but 676 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 4: there's this kind of reverter to businesses. You this is 677 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 4: how we've always done hearings, and this is how we 678 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 4: will always do hearings. And it's not quite rising to 679 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 4: the level of the sort of Tim Snyder anticipatory obedience. 680 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: Right. 681 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 4: It's not taking the knee. But what it's not is 682 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 4: saying if I don't like, take the gloves off and 683 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 4: go like crazy like animal on the Muppet Show. Right now, 684 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 4: I am signaling this doesn't matter. 685 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 1: I really love Tim Snyder and think he's very very 686 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,439 Speaker 1: Tim Snyder is very, very, very smart. And I think 687 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: the obeyon advance line has been used done every like 688 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: everything right the in American media has been just completely 689 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: done to death at this point. But that said, they 690 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: certainly the Republican Senators are I mean, they're basically like 691 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: I don't want any problems. I don't want them to 692 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 1: pay for extra security. It's not worth it to me 693 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: to go up against this guy, right, I mean, that's 694 00:37:58,600 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: what they're saying. 695 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 4: Plays in my head, like in the two hours of 696 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 4: night that I sleep anymore. Molly. Is that Mitt Romney interview, 697 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,479 Speaker 4: you know in The Atlantic where he describes Republicans who 698 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 4: all along knew that Donald Trump should be impeached, Like 699 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 4: all along, you know, we're sniggering into their like you know, 700 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 4: lattes on Capitol Hill about how ridiculous Trump was and 701 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 4: who were just scared, like who are just like I 702 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 4: don't want my kids to be threatened. I'm terrified, Like 703 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 4: there's crazy vigilantes out there. And what I keep thinking 704 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 4: about is if everybody is afraid, right, if everybody is 705 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 4: simply terrified, then I don't have a sense. It kind 706 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 4: of goes back to your who's going to get roughed 707 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 4: up in these hearings questions? But like, if everybody is 708 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 4: afraid all the time, there is no reason they will 709 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 4: ever defect on anything. And that's what we're starting to see. 710 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,760 Speaker 1: I think, I mean yes, And also I might add 711 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: and again I know because I listened to your podcast 712 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,359 Speaker 1: yesterday that you don't necessarily agree with this, but Mark 713 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: Joseph Stern, who's your co host, who I feel like, 714 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: I mean, we're all pessimistic, because pessimism in this moment 715 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: is just accurate. But Donald Trump does not have the 716 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: rubber stamp he thought he did with his Supreme Court right. 717 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 4: So Mark and I had a little, tiny, little slap 718 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 4: fight on the show last week because, you know, by 719 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,760 Speaker 4: a narrow five to four margin, let the record reflect 720 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 4: the Supreme Court. You know, in the wee hours of 721 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 4: the night, right before Donald Trump was set to be 722 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 4: sentenced in front of Judge Marshaan said yes, you actually 723 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 4: have to go ahead and be sentenced. And Mark saw 724 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 4: that as evidence of oh, look at here's the Supreme 725 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 4: Court blinking, or at minimum, here's Amy Cony Barrett and 726 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 4: the chief right John Roberts joining with the three liberals 727 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 4: and saying, like, dude, it's a zoom hearing. It's twenty minutes. Yes, 728 00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 4: you'll show up. And you know, that was one of 729 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 4: the two bases for letting it go forward. The other 730 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 4: one you have an appellate process, you can you know, 731 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 4: argue this out there. But the fact that there were 732 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 4: four justices who were willing to have a like Donald 733 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 4: Trump exclusively laws is one thing to like chill you 734 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 4: to the bone. I think my point with Mark was, 735 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 4: I just think the headline on every single story for 736 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 4: the next four years should start with the implicit. And 737 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 4: John Roberts wrote the opinion that gave us the immunity, 738 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 4: like I think, having done the truly heinous thing, not 739 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 4: just in the immunity case right, but in Fisher, the 740 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 4: case about the January sixth statutes, and in the Colorado 741 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 4: right case about ballot removal, the insurrection clause case. John 742 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 4: Roberts wrote all those opinions, and he wrote them in 743 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 4: the broadest way possible. And so for me to be 744 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 4: like John Roberts is a hero of modern democracy because 745 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 4: while he was willing to break everything, he forced Trump 746 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 4: to like get sentenced to nothing. 747 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 5: By the way, No, I'm not there. 748 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: Oh I agree, I mean and oh yeah, but more 749 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: just my no, no, this is how we got here, 750 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: for sure. But I'm just more. The question is sort 751 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: of he's not completely in the time for Trump, which 752 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,720 Speaker 1: is a pathetic, but at least it's something, though not much. Dahlia, 753 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: please please please come back. 754 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 4: Always anytime, anytime. And I don't know about you, but 755 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 4: I'm going to go back to watching Pam Bundy because man, 756 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 4: she is I mean in all the ways that hag 757 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 4: Seth was kind of like, man, how many push ups 758 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,760 Speaker 4: can you do? Like nobody's asked Pambundy that she's pretty 759 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 4: impressive as a witness, but she is like man, like 760 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:41,800 Speaker 4: nailing jello to a tree. 761 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 5: It is it is good fun. 762 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: No, no moment second, Jesse Cannon. 763 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 2: My young fast. You know, there is performative people who 764 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 2: really do drama in our governing body. But Nancy Mace, 765 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 2: she's out that Oscar. She's going for Best Actress of 766 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 2: the Year. Yesterday in the altercational Jasmine Crockett, she really 767 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 2: was trying to show off her drama. 768 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Nancy Mays is sort of trying to be 769 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: Lauren Beaupert or Marjorie Taylor Green or one of those ladies. 770 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: Her big thing now is fighting with Jasmine Crocket. Jasmine 771 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: Crockett has become a real star. It almost feels to 772 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: me like when Tommy Lauren was like fighting with people 773 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: were much much more famous than she was. It almost 774 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: feels like cloud chasing. But Nancy mays she's obsessed with 775 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,720 Speaker 1: trans people and preventing them from using bathrooms and being 776 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,239 Speaker 1: in sports and whatever other terrible things she can do 777 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 1: to trans people. So she had a sort of whole thing, 778 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: a whole soliloquy for Jasmine about how terrible trans people are. 779 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: Nancy mays, it's like, I feel like we're just watching 780 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,320 Speaker 1: the same you know. It's just someone who really, really 781 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: really wants attention. 782 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 2: I like that. Jasmine called her out for trying to 783 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 2: boost her fundraising with this, which it's both that and 784 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 2: the cloud. 785 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune 786 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the 787 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: best minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. 788 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a 789 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.