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Speaker 1: In two days of talks. Blincoln's main goal was to

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Speaker 1: persuade Chinese officials to resume contact between the two militaries,

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Speaker 1: cut off since August last year.

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Speaker 2: It's less a hotline and more regular engagement, regular communication

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Speaker 2: so that they understand what we're doing.

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Speaker 3: And not doing.

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Speaker 1: But she did not agree US sanctions on China's defense

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Speaker 1: minister were an excuse for why he refused his phone calls.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So the condundrum to me is, if you got

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Speaker 4: a guy who wants to fight you, you don't want

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Speaker 4: to fight, how do you dictate any terms whatsoever? Aren't

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Speaker 4: you in a constant state of retreat to try to

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Speaker 4: avoid the fight, and he gets to set the pace

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Speaker 4: of everything.

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Speaker 2: Unless you can say confidently, I will fight you, and

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Speaker 2: I will beat you badly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, fighting me would be a really bad idea. That's

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Speaker 4: about the only hope you got.

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Speaker 2: So many story is subplots involving China going on right now.

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Speaker 2: And who better to talk to than one of our

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Speaker 2: favorite journalists, Josh Rogan, Global opinions calumnist for the Washington Post,

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Speaker 2: also a political analyst with CNN. Josh Rogan, how are you, sir?

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Speaker 3: Great? Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 4: Where do you absolutely our pleasure? Where do you see

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Speaker 4: things as they stand right now? Have we accomplished anything

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Speaker 4: at this point?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? You know, I think frankly, your opening was like

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Speaker 3: refreshingly honest and accurate in a sea of horrendous media

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Speaker 3: coverage of this blinking visit, you know, which is all

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Speaker 3: centated around the question which you answered amazingly to be honest,

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Speaker 3: which is like, wait, why are we doing this? What

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Speaker 3: do we hope to accomplish? And how is it that

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Speaker 3: the most important thing for our Secretary of State China

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Speaker 3: policy is getting China to take pick up the phone.

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Speaker 3: That's the most important thing. And how do we understand

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Speaker 3: the fact that the Chinese government says they want communication

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Speaker 3: and dialogue and peace and cooperation and mutual respect and

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Speaker 3: when when solutions and to avoid the Well that's what

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Speaker 3: they say. But then when we're like, hey, do you

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Speaker 3: want to have a phone line, They're like, no, sorry,

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Speaker 3: we can't go that far. You know, it's it's it's ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: We're in this ridiculous moment in our culture, in our

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Speaker 3: society where everyone is telling us listen, we really got

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Speaker 3: to make nice with China, which would be great and

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Speaker 3: We never stopped to think even for one second that

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Speaker 3: question that you asked, which is like, what if they

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Speaker 3: don't want that, what if they're not interested in what

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Speaker 3: if they're lying you know what I mean, what if

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Speaker 3: they're to be sure, they don't trust us. We don't

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Speaker 3: trust them. We've given them reasons not to trust us.

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Speaker 3: They've given us reasons not to trust them. Sure, but

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Speaker 3: the buying administrations sent the secretary stayed over there and

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Speaker 3: they you know, patted him on the head and sent

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Speaker 3: them packing. That's what happened. And he was like, Hey,

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Speaker 3: can we just get a phone line set up, you know,

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Speaker 3: to avoid that conflict that you say you don't want.

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Speaker 3: They're like, nah, so that could tell you everything you

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Speaker 3: need to know. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, The difference between actions and words comes to mind.

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Speaker 2: So we were discussing briefly earlier, Josh, the idea that

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Speaker 2: China has this strategy, very long term strategy, to dominate

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Speaker 2: the globe, including the United States, and there's really nothing

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Speaker 2: we can do outside of the threat of force to

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Speaker 2: dissuade them. I mean, we get together for these meetings,

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Speaker 2: they might change their tactics, but not their strategy.

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Speaker 3: Would you agree, Yeah, and not only that it's not

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Speaker 3: just a military strategy, like we're always talking about the

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Speaker 3: South China Sea or what if we go to war

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Speaker 3: with Taiwan. But that's important, but that's only one thing.

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Speaker 3: You know. The Chinese strategy is economic and ideological and technological.

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Speaker 3: And you know, they want to sort of take over

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Speaker 3: all the UN bodies so that they can turn them

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Speaker 3: into anti human rights organizations. And then they want to

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Speaker 3: you know, tell us to go pound stand when it

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Speaker 3: comes to unfair trade practices, and you know, they're using

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Speaker 3: economic coersion all over the region and all these countries

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Speaker 3: are looking to us like what do you got you

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Speaker 3: have anything to contend with this? And you know that

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, right, we can't change China. The

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Speaker 3: hubris that comes from Washington is like, oh, we can

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Speaker 3: make them to be like us, you know. And that's

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Speaker 3: what I think we need to realize is that they're

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Speaker 3: not going to become like us. They're gonna China's going

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Speaker 3: to develop in its own way, for better or worse.

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Speaker 3: But here's the good news, if there is any There

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Speaker 3: are a lot of other countries who do want to

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Speaker 3: help us. And there are a lot of countries, especially

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Speaker 3: in Asia, who share our concerns. And this is why

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Speaker 3: I like when you hear which you hear. I hear

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Speaker 3: a lot of recently, Oh those Washington China hawks. Oh man,

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Speaker 3: they're getting too you know, there's too much group thing

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Speaker 3: and consensus that China's bad and you know, you know

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Speaker 3: that's going to start the war or something like that.

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Speaker 3: You would in order to believe that crap, you would

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Speaker 3: have to ignore the fact that there's all these other

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Speaker 3: countries in the world who's facing the same problem as

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Speaker 3: we are. And when you think about China's rise, it

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Speaker 3: will be the biggest richest country with the biggest economy

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Speaker 3: and the probably the biggest you know, like that'll that's

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Speaker 3: gonna happen. But if we join with I don't know

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Speaker 3: the number three one, which is Japan, or the number

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Speaker 3: four one, which is you could all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: we get the advantage again. So I think that's really

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Speaker 3: where we should focus our efforts.

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Speaker 4: Interesting, So, a couple of weeks ago, the administration was

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Speaker 4: forced to admit news reports that China was putting spying

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Speaker 4: apparatus in Cuba. And now we have this story today.

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Speaker 4: I think it's in the Wall Street Journal that there

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Speaker 4: is talk of some sort of base or training exercises

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Speaker 4: between China and Cuban Cuba, which could include Chinese troops

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Speaker 4: in Cuba. How big a deal is.

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Speaker 3: This, right, It's like, oh, man, don't compare this to

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Speaker 3: the Cold War. But wait, they're putting military basic Cuba.

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Speaker 3: It's like, all right, well it's not exactly the Cold War,

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Speaker 3: but you know, there's a couple of things that are

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Speaker 3: like kind of remind me of it a little bit, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, and not to mention, you know, the Gulags

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Speaker 3: and the communism and the military expansion and the repression

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Speaker 3: and all that stuff. But I mean, you know, the

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Speaker 3: funny thing about the Biden people is that, you know,

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Speaker 3: anytime they're they're trying to be nice to Beijing, they

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Speaker 3: just don't They don't want any bad news with the

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Speaker 3: They just deny it as a matter of course. Oh

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Speaker 3: what about the Chinese basic Cubit No, oh we never

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Speaker 3: saw it. I don't know. And they're like, oh, but

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Speaker 3: here it is like, oh, well, that wasn't us. That

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Speaker 3: was the Trump administration. They dropped the ball of that,

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Speaker 3: And it's not that bad anyway. It's not a spy base.

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Speaker 3: It's a base that can spy That's what I was like.

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Speaker 3: They were like, they're like, it doesn't exist. The like, okay,

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Speaker 3: it does exist, but it's not a spy base. It's

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Speaker 3: just a base. And yeah, sure there are spies there,

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Speaker 3: but that's not the main point of the base. It's

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Speaker 3: really more about you know, you know, planting turn uffs.

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Speaker 3: So you know what I mean. This is the kind

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Speaker 3: of nonsense that they spend their time in meetings in

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Speaker 3: the National Security Council and like you can imagine, like

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Speaker 3: dozens of emails I am back and forth or like, oh,

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Speaker 3: can we say it's a base that spies. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: that'll work. Let's let's run with that. Okay, you send

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Speaker 3: that up to you know what I mean, This is

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Speaker 3: what our leaders spend their time worrying about.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Josh Joshu Oagan, global opinions calumnist for the Washington

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Speaker 2: Post is Online. Sorry, Josh, go ahead finish your thought.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm just gonna say, but I don't know, I

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Speaker 3: forget what I say. Let's go on to the next question.

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Speaker 2: I interrupted. It was rude, it was untoward, and I

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Speaker 2: apologize for it.

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Speaker 3: We gotta keep the show moving, I get it. We

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Speaker 3: got a lot to guess him well.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I actually Jack went on a rant

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Speaker 2: earlier about how we were the beggar, We were on

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Speaker 2: our knees begging China for favors and they were telling

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Speaker 2: us to go to hell. And I accused him of

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Speaker 2: being a jingoist and out of his mind and the

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Speaker 2: rest of it. But boy, judging by your description, that

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Speaker 2: seems to be the dynamic. But in the fairly limited

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Speaker 2: time we have, what have we learned recently about the

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Speaker 2: origins of COVID nineteen. How solid is the evidence.

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Speaker 3: Right right? By the way, I don't think this necessarily

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Speaker 3: means that he's not out of his mind, by the.

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Speaker 2: Way, you all right, right, but sometimes when you're paranoid,

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Speaker 2: they are after you, you know, as the.

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Speaker 3: Old saying goes, right, But you know, listen, the evidence

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Speaker 3: keeps mounting that they're probably likely, very likely, definitely probably.

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Speaker 3: There was some relation between the outbreak of a back

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Speaker 3: coronavirus that infects humans with the lab in Wuhan next

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Speaker 3: to the outbreak that was studying the back coronaviruses that

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Speaker 3: effect human colored me shocked. But and like you know,

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Speaker 3: like you know, you know, damn those people who you know,

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Speaker 3: refuse to release this information for three years while people

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Speaker 3: died and then and people were silent and all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean. It's a real crime. The

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Speaker 3: cover up is the crime here. And the Chinese have

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Speaker 3: been covering up the labs since day one, and we

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Speaker 3: never asked, well, why are they covering up the labs?

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Speaker 3: If the labs are innocent, why are they going? Doesn't

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Speaker 3: make any sick? So, you know, I think, like now,

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Speaker 3: the evidence is piling up, and I think the pressure's

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Speaker 3: on the Biden administration to release the rest of it.

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Speaker 3: They're sitting on the proof. They have it. We don't

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Speaker 3: need to go to China, we don't need to break

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Speaker 3: into the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The proof is in

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Speaker 3: the Biden's hands and all he has to do is

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Speaker 3: release it, as the law requires him to do. But

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Speaker 3: I don't think they're going to do it for the

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Speaker 3: reasons we just discussed. Because it's going to disrupt his

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Speaker 3: delegate friendship was Jujuing King. That's a tragedy.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I'm the opposite of a conspiracy theorist. I

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Speaker 2: approach virtually everything with a great deal of skepticism. But

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Speaker 2: the evidence seems so clear to me that US funding

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Speaker 2: was intimately involved in the Wuhan Institute. Anthony Fauci, Peter Dazak,

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Speaker 2: EcoHealth Alliance, all of them were in bed with that

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Speaker 2: lab and they have been desperate to cover up their

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Speaker 2: culpability for the deaths of millions of people. Agreed, disagree halfway?

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Speaker 3: What listen, I don't. It's not that we funded the

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Speaker 3: research that started the pandemic, that we built the whole

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Speaker 3: laboratory that then took that laboratory and joined it with

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Speaker 3: the Chinese military, and that's where you know, the problem

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Speaker 3: likely happened. So we're indirectly responsible. And I say we

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Speaker 3: all of our whole system, which was thought that we

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Speaker 3: could just engage China and work with these nice Chinese

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Speaker 3: scientists and help them play around with that coronaviruses and

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Speaker 3: everything would be hunky dory. All right, That's a nationwide,

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Speaker 3: government wide failure that we refuse to acknowledge. But I

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Speaker 3: think that, Yeah, I think increasingly the jig is up.

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Speaker 4: All right, Appreciate your time, man, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Josh Rogan of The Washington Post, Josh, it's always stimulating.

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Speaker 2: Come on again soon, would you anytime?

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Speaker 3: All right?

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Speaker 2: Thanks,