WEBVTT - Ditch the Pitch 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.760 I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:05.600 going to have to start making better content. I think 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:07.120 we're gonna be talking about this for a long time. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.159 When you program for everyone, you program for no one. 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:12.280 I think it's a word purpose driven platform, like we're 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.640 trying to get to substance. How was that? Are you 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.200 happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:25.960 really is? What's up? I'm Laura Currnty and I'm Alexa Kristen. 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:29.400 Welcome back to Atlantia. Coming to you from spring break 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:33.559 and sunny Arizona. Hi, Laura, Hi, I miss you know 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:36.200 we should be down here. We thought we would use 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:38.800 this week to bring in one of our friends from Adwik, 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.640 Josh Dernberg, who is the tech editor of that trade publication, 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:44.720 coming and talk to us about some of the things 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.159 um that he's seeing from his vantage point, not just 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:51.200 from a signal in the noise trend perspective, but also 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:53.040 ways in which we think that we can bring the 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.760 industry tighter together to actually move it forward. Yeah. I 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.360 think that the conversation really is more about what can 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:05.560 we do to kind of change the PR marketing advertising 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:09.840 agency relationship. And I think that a lot of people 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.000 have been saying what he's saying. He's very clear, and 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:17.000 I like his currently dystopian. He likes to say he's 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:18.959 a pragmatist and a realist, but I think it's a 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:25.040 somewhat like dystopian kind of perspective of where we are 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:28.959 today in this relationship between the press and and the 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.839 agency side and the client side. I think that there's 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.440 a lot to be said in terms of the trades 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:37.560 and I and I'm hoping we talked to him about this, 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:40.640 that there's a lot to be said about getting into 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:45.440 where the trades are going and the trade publications role 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:50.600 in actually driving change in the industry versus just maybe 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.080 reporting on it. So I'm excited to talk to Josh. 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:55.600 We're going to bring him in the studio and we'll 0:01:55.680 --> 0:02:12.280 be back with him right after this. Yeah, we're back 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.440 in the studio with Josh Sternberg, the tech editor of 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:18.760 ad Week. Welcome to the show, Josh, Welcome does the show, Josh, 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.680 thank you for having me so, Mr Josh Sternberg. Similar 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.480 to our friends or Fisher, you've been on kind of 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.960 both sides of the world. Um, tell us about where 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:31.600 you came from, what You've done both on the paid 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.400 sign Brandon Content and now over ad week. What are 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:38.800 you doing? Yeah? So I'm here because I'm a failed musician. 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.560 I didn't know this about yeah, aren't we all? Yeah? 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.320 I um. I was in a rock jazz improv band 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:51.480 for a long time, and clearly there's not a market 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.959 for that. So I went to graduate school and really 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:00.280 enjoyed academia. So I became a professor for a few years. 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.480 Then I met a girl, wound up in New York 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.720 where it was not economically viable for me to cross 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.560 two rivers back into New Jersey to continue teaching. So 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:12.240 I need to find a job, and I landed in 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:17.280 PR and it was fine. I got a good understanding 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.320 of how companies and brands communicate, but at the same 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:25.480 time I still enjoyed writing. Wound up at digit A, 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:30.240 writing covering media and the ongoing transition that publishers face, 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:35.280 moving from a legacy print analog world to a fun 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:40.280 digital world. How many years ago is that now? So 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:44.480 that was about That was six years ago, two thousands twelve, 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:46.480 and it was a digit A for about two and 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.480 a half years. I got a call from the chief 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.280 revenue officer at the Washington Post who called me up 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:54.960 and said, hey, we're doing this brand studio thing. You've 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:59.000 been covering it, you know, the playbook of what people 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.600 are doing. Seemed to have a good head on your shoulders. 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:04.440 What do you What do you say? So I said sure, 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:09.200 um did that for about a year and a half 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.920 or so. Then NBC News came calling. And while I'm 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.320 doing the same thing at NBC News and got laid 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:20.440 off in March of this is on the digital side 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.880 doing Brandon content. Uh yeah, yeah. When I got laid off, 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:28.080 I was thinking, well, I really don't want to go 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.480 back into the business side, all the glitz and glamor 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.400 of it all. I really missed reporting. I missed being 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.000 in a news room, I missed the intellectual curiosity of reporters. 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:40.520 And I ended up at that week. So I've been 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:46.200 here now for about four months and it's phenomenal. So 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.760 you've been covering a lot of what's on everybody's mind 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.120 right now, the Facebook, Google, do appoly and for many 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.680 of our listeners who obviously are in the industry, this 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.640 has become mainstream news as opposed to just industry news. 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.680 Can you give us some background on the state of 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.479 what's going on with Facebook and Google. So I think 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:08.400 the one of the interesting things about all of this 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:13.119 is that this is not something that happened overnight, and 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:23.440 it's not something that is necessarily company lead users, advertisers, marketers. 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.360 We allowed this to happen by continuing to use these 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:33.640 products and these websites without really paying attention. Um. You know, 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:38.200 when you talk about the doopoly, it's more on the 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:43.200 ad revenue side, right where five or eighty six cents 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.880 of every digital dollar goes to one of those two companies, 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.919 you know, And we're going to start to see Amazon 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.680 take a little piece here and there. On the odd side, 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.360 the Internet is for all times of purposes for a 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:00.440 lot of people, Google and Facebook, so that attention, those 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.640 eyeballs are there. So, you know, I'll throw that back 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.360 to you guys. Is you know, media and marketing folks, 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:12.920 when you see a plan and you're looking for scale 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.359 and reach, what are you looking for? It's it's a 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.560 good question, and I think we think about things very 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.160 strategically in terms of what is the big idea, how 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:23.440 do we come across and drive impact and attention in 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.640 the market. When you hear it some statistic and don't 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.000 quote me on this, but it's something over fift of 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:33.560 impressions are viewed by bots not loading on a page. UM. 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:36.200 That's concerning, and that's not something that's new. Those are 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.320 not new facts, UM. And I think we very early 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.440 decided some of the work that we've done, and certainly 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.479 work that I've done with other clients, that we put 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:48.000 content in an environment where it wasn't skippable, where it 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.760 was integrated within other content that was editorially driven. And 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.120 I think that's something that we we tend to forget 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.640 about that that doesn't happen by pressing a button and 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.440 running through a programmatic buy Right. That's many nights of 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.320 having drinks and dinners with the sales rep. And that's 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.359 many nights of that sales rep trying to figure out 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.800 how am I going to get this account to do 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:19.720 these things? And there's often that a disconnect because most 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.400 people are not Most buyers are not like you. We 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:24.680 have a box to check, we have a spreadsheet to 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:30.840 fill out, and let's just keep the ball moving forward. UM. 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.200 And the sales rep they're looking at they've got a 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.760 quarily number to hit, they're looking at what's in front 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.680 of their face. But that sales rep who's trying to 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:43.560 do something big, trying to do something creative, will often 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:49.200 have to walk back those ideas either a because no 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:54.680 one's buying, be because they have a hard time articulating 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.600 what that thing could be. And then when it does 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.280 get sold, the execution is really bad because no one 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.320 actually thought it through. And I'm sure that pisses you 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:07.520 guys off on that certainly, And I think that's a 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.440 large part of what's wrong, you know, and why many 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.960 years ago we walked away from the RFP process and 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.920 we want the value. There was no value right, There 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.000 was no value in it anymore because at the end 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:19.760 of the day one, we weren't looking for off the 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:24.400 shelf kind of stuff. Um. We also, and this is 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.040 something that I talked to other client side folks about 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:31.640 all the time, like, you should know what the Washington 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.440 Post is really good at, and you should know what 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:37.000 their road map is, and you should know how you 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:38.960 know what the New York Times is really good at 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:42.079 and what's the differentiator And you start going to those 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:46.680 people specifically because you have an idea, not the other 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.560 way around. Can I tell you the story, tell us 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:51.360 the story. But I want to ask you a question 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.679 before we get too far away from it. What is 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:59.320 the trade media's role in changing this conversation? So there 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:01.640 are a couple of ways of looking at this. Trade 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:07.679 journalism works well when you are able to explain something 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.760 to practitioners who are doing this every day that might 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.040 have their clients on. So if I am writing about 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:19.560 how a particular company is doing something, so you know, 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:23.400 let's say the Washington Post, how the Washington Post is 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:29.280 operating their programmatic strategy, it's a process story. It's here's 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.760 how this one company is doing this one thing, and 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.440 here how you reader can take away knowledge of what 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:37.800 this company is doing and how you might be able 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:44.440 to use those practices in your day to day job. Um, 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:50.920 there's another side of trade journalism that can shine a 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.160 light on some of the shady stuff that happens in 0:09:54.160 --> 0:10:00.079 the industry that we talk about in different settings. We 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.440 go out for drinks, you guys tell me stuff that 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:05.720 you wouldn't tell me when I'm calling to talk about 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:09.880 a story. It's in a way, no, no, it's not 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:14.320 not you specifically. Let's yes, you guys. You guys do 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.240 not give me any dirt ever. But you know, going 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:22.800 going out to drinks with sources, going out to coffee 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.400 or launch and just talking with people, you can find 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:30.240 stories of companies doing bad things, people doing bad things, 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.040 and then you report and you shine a light to 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:38.720 hopefully show others, hey, don't do this, this is dumb. Uh. 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:46.320 There is a growing trend not just within trade journalism um, 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.240 but within the tangentials of trade journalisms. So it doesn't 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:53.400 quite seep into the mainstream, but it does get into 0:10:54.080 --> 0:11:00.400 publications that cover media or advertising on the side um 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:05.280 where they look for the salacious and for the dirt 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:10.839 for the sake of salaciousness and dirt. So can we 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.040 park that part there? Because I want to come back 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.400 to the center. One of the main reasons we created 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:19.040 at Landia was how do we shape the conversation, poke 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:23.240 holes and ask questions about legacy models, the traditional way 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:27.439 of doing things when in fact technology and the consumer 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.959 have moved tenfold away from the way this this industry 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:35.600 acts and behaves and and goes to market. So when 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.440 I got to add week, part of my pitch for 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.959 them to hire me was that I wanted to build 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:47.200 a desk that looks at basically how every single decision 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.079 that the media landscape has made over the last twenty 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:54.400 years has been wrong, and it has created problem, which 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.679 has created more problems, which has created more problems. And 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.880 that we are at a point with technology becoming better, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:08.000 becoming stronger, becoming faster, where through the lens of trade 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:18.240 journalism as educator, as explicator, that we can help brands, publishers, agencies, platforms, 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:23.240 even ad tech vendors make better decisions. So that way, 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:27.440 when we figure out how to make VR headsets not 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.439 look as silly as they look and make a use 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.400 case for people to actually put them on, we're not 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:38.719 getting served display ads or pop ups or banner ads, right, um, 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.600 And I think to your point, the way that we 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.240 can do that is to write stories and cover the 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:51.040 industry with that perspective of look, here's what doesn't make sense, 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:55.040 here's what makes sense, Here's what's working for this company 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.040 and why, and what can you take out of it 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.400 that you might be able to help with your job. 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.280 So Alex and I have talked to, obviously Sara Fisher 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.640 who's a reporter, and Sarah made a really good UM 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.320 point at the end of the episode talking about how 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:14.679 the relationship between the industry and the trade press can 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.560 afford to get tighter in the sense of shaping those 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.079 narratives and helping journalists who might not have been practitioners. 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.679 You and Sarah were both in interesting situations and that 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.080 you were a practitioner at one point. How can the 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:30.640 industry help Josh Sternberg, How can the industry help Sarah 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.680 fisher Um and others like you or those that have 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.480 no background in our in what we do, tell those 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.040 stories or explain them in a way that's going to 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:45.360 actually create change versus swirl. Yeah, the thing that comes 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:51.640 to mind immediately is don't lie, don't bullshit, don't obfu, skate, 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.120 Just tell us it's okay that you don't know something. 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:00.240 It's okay that you tried something and it failed. Not 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:04.560 everything is going to be successful. Not everything. Actually, pretty 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.360 much nothing that you do is going to be revolutionary 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:12.040 or game changing or whatever buzzword. Getting every single press 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.800 release or pitch be honest. And I think that's where 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.760 trade journalism can excel is if we focus on the honesty. 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:25.120 The trick to that, though, is that a lot of 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.920 people within the industry, especially on the business side, it's 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.080 not in their best perspective to be honest. I mean 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.480 it's so funny because like I would never say, like 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.280 I actually wouldn't think about honesty is the first thing 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.360 but or the most important thing, because to me, that's 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:46.840 like table stakes. Right. Um, what I think you're saying 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:52.080 that is making me want a different model is like 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.560 how do we start incentivizing a different relationship? Like how 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.280 do you incent a different model here? It's interesting, Like 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.440 I'm just thinking over the work that we've done together, 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:02.760 and I could see your point in terms of the 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.000 business side coming to you when it's a best in 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.400 class case study that they want to promote. But how 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.640 many pitches have you sent maybe you're your peers have 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:16.560 sent out to a publisher saying we want something that's 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.720 never been done before. Of course, right, it's like, but 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:26.480 don't do that, because if you're setting that bar, there's 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:30.160 nothing that hasn't never been done before. To use multiple negatives. 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.240 So we had the privilege of having you at our 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:39.640 first I R Element at Landy a live sound served 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.080 over sound and Um, you and I talked that night. 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:45.560 One of the things you said to me that resonated 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.560 so much. I think you said, there's like basically a 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.880 malaise in the industry that just creates mediocrity. That's my 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.160 version of what you said. You said in a much 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.480 better headline. I just said, you know, the industries mediocrity 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:04.240 by necessity, where the output of what we do is 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.320 based off of not trying to do the best. But 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.640 it's too again to your point that that laziness, that 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.520 malaise of all right, I gotta check that box. I 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.360 got to make sure that all the way up and 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.800 down the chain that my ass is covered. It's cover 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.600 your ass syndrome, right, and media on the business side 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.680 is really good at that. Yeah. I think what's really 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.440 interesting here, though, is that, like you're talking about getting 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:37.120 briefs that basically say, do something that's never been done before. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:42.640 Innovate is not a checkbox? Is that a check box? 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.040 And it's phenomenal that those are the things that you 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.920 that you guys on the on the editorial side see. 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:54.680 But it's it's it's innovate with a pedestrian eye. When 0:16:54.960 --> 0:17:00.760 someone asks me what is the best piece of answered content, 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.600 I've seen brand branded content, native advertising content. So that's 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.040 also part of the problem, right, what is this thing? Right? 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:12.119 But anyway, you know, I always think to the g 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.720 E Capital Bus road show that was done with Slate 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.080 for Growth. Yeah, bringing that was Laura, That was LA 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:24.960 because that was that was it was interesting, right, It 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.080 was taking the idea of you know what, we've got 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.720 this message, and we want to take this message to 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.760 particular people in particular areas, and then we can create 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:40.320 all of this editorial content as well as sponsored or 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:44.240 branded or whatever content and do it in a way 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.280 that makes sense for the reader. The biggest problem that 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.360 I have with our industry is we don't take off 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.840 our hat in whatever that hat maybe um you know, 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.040 you might call me cynical, and I don't take off 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.199 my reporter's hat. But at the same time, sometimes, you know, 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.679 I cannot take off my marketer hat. And on the 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.879 business side, that's all too prevalent where I've been in 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.800 meetings where the sales rep and the agency and the 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:19.840 brand are thinking in terms of the hat that they're 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:24.359 wearing and not they're human being hat. And when you 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.560 put on the stress test of if you're a normal 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.520 person and you're waiting in line at any grocery store 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.640 and you're skimming through or scrolling through a website, are 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.440 you going to click on that piece of sponsored content? 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.800 What are you going to click on? And we don't 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.639 think about that, or if we do, that doesn't get 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.720 pushed down stream to twenty four year old media buyer 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:52.960 or the media planner. Um. So, if you can take 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.920 off your industry hat and put on your human being hat, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.919 I think some of these challenges that the industry faces 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:03.280 will just now actually fade away. I was talking to 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:07.480 someone last night, UM, and I'm saying, why can't people 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:12.159 see beyond what their business does? It's so fun? And 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.120 then what you're saying, I'm taking to like like a 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.840 very just basic level. So people say, I am a 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:22.920 data company that does X right and I see it 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.080 all the time, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.800 your your capabilities are this, and if you applied it 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.520 over here, which is something you're not even thinking about, 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:36.080 your company becomes totally different. And I think that so 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:40.600 going beyond like the industry hat and the junior media buyer, 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.359 I also think that we have like really senior, senior 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:48.840 level people on the client side who also aren't thinking 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.280 about what they do really really well and putting that 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:56.960 in places that are just very simply valuable, And that's 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.120 what you're saying. Right at the end of the day, 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.200 I think to your point, there are still too many 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:07.320 UM brand marketers, UM and agency folks who are evaluating 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:11.160 the success of campaigns based on impressions and things that 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:17.080 do not reflect the engagement, meaningful engagement and qualification of 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.880 the audience that they're reaching. Right, what does the consumer 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:21.959 care about? And these briefs that go out, you see them, 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.920 they're very one way, very push versus pull in terms 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:26.800 of here's my brand story and needs to show up 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.400 and needs to target these people. But what happens when 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.639 it gets to those people, it's it's out of their hands, 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.520 right like it, It gets just pushed along. So when 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:38.120 I was on the business side, and I would get 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.920 an RFP, and it would say, we want these three 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:48.600 concepts to come through in the sponsored content, and I 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.480 and and and my team we put together these what 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.000 I thought were really smart content strategies and content plans 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.240 and distribution mechanisms and all of these levers that we 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:00.960 can pull to get the content in front of the 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:07.320 right people. And invariably I get nose from buyers and 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:12.879 I get nose from brands because I didn't use those 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:22.600 three specific words in the content. What what words whatever word? Right, 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:27.120 So I learned that in order to win the account, 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.919 all I needed to do was parent back the brief 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:37.080 in a semi cogent way and then when we would 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:44.639 win the account, put together content that was mediocre by necessity. 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:48.080 So so because I think this is a really important 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.439 point as you're talking about that process that you were 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:54.000 at the time willing to power it back, and I 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:55.639 know that you're not the only person who does this 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:57.919 to win business because you have a number and hit 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.280 and that's how you're incentivized. On the ad cell side. Well, 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:04.760 clearly I didn't do that good of a job by design, 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:07.800 by design um, But can we talk about just going 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.400 back to the earlier question, how can we as an industry, 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.639 how can we as agency people and brand marketers work 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:18.040 better with the Josh Sternberg's and journalists of the industry 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.840 to change this conversation. So I think this is part 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:27.199 of it, right, having these types of conversations on the record, 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:31.560 where one of the things that I try to do 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:36.000 is talk to as many people as possible up and 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:38.600 down the food chain. And I know that if I 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:42.800 talked to the CEO and the CMO. I'm going to 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:47.520 get a slightly more refined message than if I talked 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.080 to the VP, then when I talked to the director, 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:55.520 than when I talked to the manager. So I try 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:57.520 to talk to everybody so I can kind of get 0:22:57.520 --> 0:22:59.919 a better sense of what is real and what is not. 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:03.119 I look at more in terms of war, maybe because 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:08.280 I mean it sounds like it's like look like this. 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:12.840 The CEO is the head of the army, right, and 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.760 the CEO is getting his or her information from his 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:20.600 or her lieutenants, who's getting their information from the grunts 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:26.800 on the ground and the sales jups and the agency 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:30.400 reps who are going out for dinner and drinks and 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:34.280 gene parties and apple picking. Are the ones in the 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.560 trenches who are trying to give the information up to 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:45.800 their respective generals, and those messages often get conflated, destroyed, 0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:50.760 um misconstrued. Can I can I say something? Of course, 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:55.040 if if marketing became this is a druma, I'd beat 0:23:55.080 --> 0:23:59.760 a lot. But if marketing became more at the center 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:04.879 of true business, do you think that there would be 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:07.159 onions to peel back? Do you think there will be 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:10.880 stories to spin or would you be talking about real 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:15.640 ship that's moving real needles, that's changing real consumer relationships, 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:20.159 that's doing real things. And is that and is that coming? 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:24.320 I don't know. And this is very naive and very stupid, 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:27.880 and they understand this, but for me, the the bottom 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:32.560 line is do you sell ship? Do people buy the 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:36.760 product or the service that you are advertising and marketing 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:41.080 and if so, then it's working. Right. Yeah, but I'm 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:44.919 talking about like marketing building products. And this is a 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:50.720 hard concept. Right when marketing actually starts becoming part of 0:24:50.960 --> 0:24:56.439 creating the products and creating the business versus just going 0:24:56.440 --> 0:25:00.359 out and messaging that business and bringing in sales, it 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:02.840 will always do that. I mean, I I think of 0:25:03.280 --> 0:25:06.840 jobs and Apple, right, the product was built in conjunction 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:10.120 with jobs, thinking of marketing. Yeah, but he wasn't thinking 0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:13.280 about marketing. He wasn't thinking about marketing. It's thinking about 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:15.639 a product. And you know what I mean, that's what 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:18.520 that is what we're talking about, and it's real and 0:25:18.640 --> 0:25:21.560 like Steve Jobs, sorry I'm excited in Arizona. It's only 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:25.760 seven in the morning. But like Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:27.920 wasn't like I'm going to go and think about marketing. 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:30.000 He knew that that was his strong suit. He knew 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:32.919 he was a seller, but he wasn't just selling. But 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:36.439