1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 2: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 2: controlled by one man. 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 3: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: I mean legitimate. 6 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 2: He says He's always voted for Democrats, but this year 7 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: it will be different. 8 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 3: He'll vote Republican. 9 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 4: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 10 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 4: on him. 11 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 5: Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 12 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 6: Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 13 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: Welcome to Eloning, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, 14 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 2: April ninth. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. Today we would 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 2: be talking about two very different bits of news coming 16 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: from Elon's empire. First, there's Elon's promise of robotaxis. Then 17 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: there's trouble brewing for him in Brazil, where X is 18 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: fighting the courts over disinformation actions. So we're going to 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: start with X in Brazil, and to do so, we 20 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 2: are joined by Sasha Eisenberg, a former Bloomberg News reporter 21 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,279 Speaker 2: who now covers technology and politics and is the author 22 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 2: of the just release book The Lie Detectives. In search 23 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: of a playbook for winning elections in the disinformation Age. 24 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 2: Welcome Sasha. 25 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 6: Great to be with you all. 26 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: Thanks and Kurt Wagner, who covers X for us here 27 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: at Bloomberg. 28 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 4: Hello, Kurt, Hey, thank you for having me. 29 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: Okay, So, Sasha, I swear I've been trying to keep 30 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 2: up with all the twists and turns of this X 31 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: story in Brazil. It's been really hard because it's happening 32 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 2: really fast. Explain for us what is going on here. 33 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 6: Brazil has the most aggressive election regulator in the world, 34 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 6: I mean, at least in a democracy. I guess you 35 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 6: can make the claim that Vladimir Putin was a pretty 36 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 6: aggressive election regulator last month in Russia. But there's the 37 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 6: Supreme Electoral Tribunal in Brazili is nominally a court, but 38 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 6: not really in the way that we would recognize. It 39 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 6: also serves as a prosecutor, a regulatory body, the nation's 40 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 6: leading elections administrator, and since twenty eighteen, it has been 41 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 6: incredibly aggressive at trying to police what it calls disinformation online, 42 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 6: and a lot of that means sending orders to tech 43 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 6: companies that operate in Brazil, demanding that they take down accounts, 44 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 6: take down individual pieces of content, and most of the 45 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 6: tech companies have sort of acquiesced to this as a 46 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 6: cost of doing. 47 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 3: Business in Brazil. 48 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,239 Speaker 6: What happened recently is that Elon Musk decided that he 49 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 6: was going to be more adversarial with the court than 50 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 6: any other major tech company has been in the last 51 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 6: few years. And at that's sort of the moment we're in. 52 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: Okay, So Sasha, just get for one second, just you know, 53 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: take another step back a little bit and explain the 54 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: history of Musk and the previous president there in Brazil, 55 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: the far right president Bolsonado, who lost an election that 56 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: you were there reporting on, and give us a little 57 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 2: bit more about the court, the Supreme Court's crackdown on 58 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: disinformation that it believes is being spun largely by this 59 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 2: group of allies of Bolsonado. 60 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, so Bolsonaro wins in twenty eighteen, and after the election, 61 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 6: much as in the United States after twenty sixteen, people 62 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 6: started to look deeply at at online disinformation, in our case, 63 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 6: the role of Russian intelligence services. There was a lot 64 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 6: of attention paid to WhatsApp groups in which Bolsonaro supporters 65 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 6: hiered marketing agencies to spread lies within these sort of 66 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 6: large groups that function as a sort of hybrid of 67 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 6: a group text and broadcast platform. And this sort of 68 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 6: fear about online disinformation is set against a backdrop in 69 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 6: Brazil of twenty years of dictatorship that has made the 70 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 6: country incredibly sensitive, I think to the threat of what 71 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 6: it thinks of a serf sotalitarian propaganda. 72 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just to be clear on that point, right, Sasha, 73 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: the Brazilian dictatorship only ends in the late eighties, and 74 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: so democracy there is indeed pretty young, and as many 75 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: Brazilians see it, pretty fragile. 76 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 6: Exactly, And so I think, you know, and just the 77 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 6: other part of this legal context is that Brazil's constitution 78 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 6: doesn't have anything approaching the First Amendment. There's no absolute 79 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 6: guarantee of free speech, and so Brazilian courts are weighing 80 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 6: free expression concerns against a lot of other priorities, and 81 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 6: they put a lot of weight on basically trying to 82 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 6: resist totalitarian return of its totalitarian order. And so this 83 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 6: court emerges and cobbles together A lot of this court's 84 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 6: been around for a while, but it starts to cobble 85 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 6: together authority in the last few years, sometimes from laws 86 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 6: there were past decades ago before the internet was in sight, 87 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 6: and it's basically anointed itself the cheap definer and defender 88 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 6: of truth online. And there's nothing that we would recognize 89 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 6: as as a conventional YELLS process or do process. And 90 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 6: the Chief Justice of this Court, Alexander de Mores, became 91 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 6: the sort of central figure in the twenty twenty two 92 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 6: election cycle. A lot of days that year he was 93 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 6: in more headlines than either Lula or Bolsonaro because this 94 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 6: Court was issuing orders about what could or can not 95 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 6: be said online and what the punishments would be for 96 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 6: either individuals or tech companies that violated it. 97 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: Lula, of course, being the leftist candidate Bolshonado's rival in 98 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: that twenty twenty two election, who won office and returned 99 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 2: to power fifteen or twenty years after having been in previously. Yeah, 100 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 2: I saw Sasha that elon has challenged the Supreme Court 101 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 2: Judge jimoud Eyes to a debate. I would be shocked, okay, 102 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 2: personally if this judge says, oh, yeah, let me hop 103 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,559 Speaker 2: on your spaces and do this little debate. Brazilians tend 104 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: not to react very favorably to that kind of thing. 105 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 2: It's a it's a little condescending. I don't think you 106 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 2: would ask Chief Justice Roberts to hop on a spaces 107 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: and debate elements of free speech here. 108 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 3: No, And the whole way. 109 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 6: Muscus approached us in the last week has been that 110 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 6: he's just discovering something that anybody who's paid attention to 111 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 6: how the internet works in Brazil over the last six 112 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 6: or seven years would know already, which doesn't seem to 113 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 6: be a totally uncommon sort of posture of his. But 114 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 6: in this case, the fact is that he's acted or 115 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 6: something unusual about these orders. And I think from the 116 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 6: context of an American idea of the constitution there may be, 117 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 6: but in the context of how business and politics and 118 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 6: law function in Brazil it hasn't been of late. 119 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 2: So he decided to be more adversarial, which led to 120 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: in the past seventy two to ninety six hours this 121 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 2: flurry of activity which leads us where exactly, as you know. 122 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 2: I saw frantic tweets or exposts from Musk last night 123 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 2: saying we're trying to rush our employees in Brazil to 124 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: a safe place, and so on and so forth, where 125 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 2: exactly do things stand? 126 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 6: So people have been jailed as a result of orders 127 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 6: from this electoral court. So it is not entirely far 128 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 6: fetched to suggest that that could be an outcome. But 129 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 6: biden large the way that this court has worked as 130 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 6: it has sent orders to tech companies, often attached to 131 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 6: large finds, often tallied in the hours, for not taking 132 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 6: down content, and so ultimately, I think that Musk will 133 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 6: have a decision to make does he want to do 134 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 6: business in Brazil with X, in which case he will 135 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 6: have to almost certainly acquiesce to the court's orders or 136 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 6: decide that he is willing to forego a major market. 137 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 6: And every other company Google, YouTube, Facebook that has been 138 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 6: in this situation has decided to go along with the 139 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 6: court's orders because I think that the business logic of 140 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 6: it is sort of in disputable. 141 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: Now, Kurt, for X, Brazil happens to be a pretty 142 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: important market. 143 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 3: No, yeah, it is. 144 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 4: I've seen a few estimates because they don't break out 145 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 4: or haven't historically broken it out on financial statements or 146 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 4: anything like that, but anywhere from maybe the sixth largest 147 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 4: market for X to the fourth largest market tens of 148 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 4: millions of users. Certainly, and obviously we've talked on the 149 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 4: show about X's business and how it's struggling right now 150 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 4: to build any type of consistency with its advertising business. 151 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 4: So you know, walking away from your fourth, fifth, sixth 152 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 4: largest market is not an insignificant trade off for someone 153 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 4: like Elon Musk, especially given the state of X's business 154 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 4: at the moment. 155 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, X is now a private company, so we don't 156 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 2: know just exactly how much revenue the Brazilian market throws 157 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 2: off for the company, Is that correct? 158 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 4: That's right. We know the top market historically is the US, 159 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 4: far and away. Second is Japan pretty much far and 160 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 4: away as well. If there was anything similar to this 161 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 4: in the US or Japan, that might be a death 162 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 4: blow to X, honestly. But I think Brazil, while certainly important, 163 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 4: I think there's clearly a calculus here by Elon right 164 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: willing to take this stand and has said this might 165 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 4: mean that we have to close our office in the country, 166 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 4: This might mean that X gets banned, and we're willing 167 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 4: to make that trade off. I don't think he'd be 168 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 4: doing that if this was going to put the company 169 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 4: into bankruptcy or something like that. So I think it's significant, certainly. 170 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 4: I don't think it's crippling decision in the way that 171 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 4: it might be in a few other markets for them. 172 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 2: Is this a Brazil specific thing or is this something 173 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: that could rear its head elsewhere. 174 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 6: There's no other body in the world that polices political 175 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 6: content online in a country the way that this electoral 176 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 6: court in Brazil does. So it is the political legal 177 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 6: environment in which this is taking place is just radically 178 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 6: different than in the US, or Japan or any of 179 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 6: the other countries where X has a large footprint. 180 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 2: So, Kurt, by the way, I read somewhere that the 181 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: judge has essentially said, you put these accounts back up, 182 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: these accounts that I am banning, and you run the 183 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: risk of being fined twenty thousand dollars per day per 184 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 2: account for a company X that's struggling to produce much 185 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: money or god for big profits. That seems like an 186 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 2: awful lot of money to me. But let me ask 187 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: you this, how do we understand as we look at 188 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: musk position here and the attack he's taking in Brazil, 189 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: how do we square that with the stance he's taking, 190 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: for instance, in China. 191 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 4: Well, this is what I was just going to bring up, 192 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 4: is that this is a unique response from Elon because 193 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 4: we've seen X and there's been reported examples since he 194 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 4: took over of them, essentially following these types of orders 195 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 4: in other countries. So in India, for example, the government 196 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 4: has said, hey, you need to take down these accounts, 197 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 4: and they've said, well, we don't want to, but that's 198 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 4: the cost of doing business in India. Same thing has 199 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 4: happened in Turkey, right, And yet here in Brazil he's 200 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 4: decided to take a different approach and say, well, even 201 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 4: though I'm willing to follow the laws of the land 202 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 4: and these other countries will operate in here's where I 203 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 4: draw the line. And it's interesting that this is the 204 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 4: market in which he chose to do that. I'm gonna Actually, 205 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 4: there was a great newsletter by Casey Newton, who writes 206 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 4: the Platformer newsletter, and he commented about this yesterday and 207 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 4: I just want to read a sentence from him because 208 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 4: I thought it was it summarized this whole thing. He says, 209 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 4: it also seems notable that of all the embattled minority 210 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 4: groups that X could have chosen to stand behind, Musk 211 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 4: has chosen the group dedicated to the false proposition that 212 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 4: Bolsonaro won the election. Right, So the idea being that 213 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 4: he could be taking a similar stance in several countries 214 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 4: and markets around the world. He happens to be doing 215 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 4: it in Brazil, where he's leaning into this idea of 216 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 4: supporting members of the far right right or a political 217 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 4: candidate who represents the far right. And I think, given 218 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 4: the types of things he's tweeting right now in the US, 219 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 4: that sort of aligns maybe ideologically with what we've seen 220 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 4: from him recently. 221 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, I've talked a lot about the differences between Brazil 222 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 6: and United States, but I think one way that things 223 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 6: are very similar is that the culture wars are very 224 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 6: much in alignment in these two countries. And so Bolsonaro 225 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 6: has attached himself to Trump. Trump is endorsed Bolsonaro, Bolsonnaro 226 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 6: is endorsed. The sort of MAGA movement in the US 227 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 6: is intertwined with Bolsonara's movement. The election denial stuff that 228 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 6: is at the core of this is pretty analogous to 229 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 6: what we've heard post twenty twenty in the US, and 230 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 6: so I think if you need an explanation as to 231 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 6: why Musk has gone here and not against other authoritarian 232 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 6: governments that have put demands on him and make claims 233 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 6: of free speech, it's because the culture war terrain is 234 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 6: the same thing that he's playing in in the US. 235 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: Every day, somewhat similar to the storming of the Capitol 236 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 2: on January sixth. Here in the United States, there was 237 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 2: a siege Sasha after Lula was inaugurated after he defeated 238 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 2: Bolsonado a couple of years ago. Maybe not quite the 239 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: same extent, but there were certainly damage done and authorities 240 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: were rattled there in Brazil. 241 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 6: So it sort of is all of the at least 242 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 6: American right wing conspiracies about state power. After MAGA supporters 243 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,239 Speaker 6: wrapped up actually in one legal institution in Brazil. 244 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: And so Kurt to wrap up here again. As we 245 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 2: look ahead to elections, not just here in the US 246 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: but in other countries, is this I suppose it's hard 247 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 2: to know, but as we look into our crystal ball, 248 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 2: is this Musk laying out a new rule or a 249 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 2: new role for himself, I should say, as arbiter of disinformation. 250 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 4: I mean, he's been laying the groundwork for something like 251 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 4: this for a while. I feel, just based on the 252 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 4: things that he's tweeting about the ways, the types of 253 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 4: conversations he's choosing to weigh in On in the US 254 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 4: clearly very much interested in my opinion, trying to shape 255 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 4: or influence the election conversation here, and so it's not 256 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 4: really surprising to me. I guess that he would do 257 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 4: the same elsewhere. The one thing I would just point out, 258 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 4: perhaps is that, you know, when Elon first took over X, 259 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 4: he when he was asked about his opinions on speech 260 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 4: and how he was going to police the network, he 261 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 4: was basically like, oh, this is I'm paraphrasing here, but like, hey, 262 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 4: this is easy. We're just going to follow the rules, 263 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 4: follow the laws. 264 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 5: Right. 265 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 4: If it's against the law, we take it down, and 266 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 4: if it's within the law, it's fair game. And a 267 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 4: lot of smart people were like, this is a way 268 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 4: oversimplified way of thinking about this, right for this very reason, 269 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 4: because in every different country there's different laws and different 270 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 4: rules and going to be different expectations. And I feel, 271 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 4: you know, it's interesting again that he's finally now pushing 272 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 4: back against someone or a court in this case. And 273 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 4: I'm curious to see what happens in the United States 274 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 4: when at some point they're going to get a request 275 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 4: from the US government about whether it's a terrorist organization 276 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 4: or a white nationalist group or whatever it is, like, 277 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 4: it seems inevitable this is going to happen in the 278 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 4: US at some point, and I'm curious if he will 279 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 4: respond in the same way, bolstered by the fact that 280 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 4: he's doing it now in Brazil and it seems to 281 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 4: be getting encouragement obviously from a lot of people who 282 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 4: support him. 283 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: Well, listen, Sasha, Kurt, when that moment happens, we will 284 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: most certainly have you both back. Appreciate you joining us. 285 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 6: Thanks guys, it's to be with you. 286 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 4: Thank you. 287 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 2: Okay, So now we have two of our regulars on 288 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: to talk about the Robotaxi. Dana hall Our, Elon Musk, reporter, 289 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: Good afternoon, Dana, Hello, Hello, And Max Chafkin, senior reporter 290 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: at Bloomberg Business Week. 291 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 7: Hello, Max, Hey, David. 292 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 5: Hey. 293 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: So all right, Dana, as my week is wrapping up 294 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 2: on Friday and I'm finally like looking at the coast 295 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: into the weekend, we get this X post from Elon saying, 296 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: drum roll please, the Robotaxi cometh on the eighth of August. 297 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: What exactly are we expecting on the eighth of August 298 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 2: and why has mister Musk decided to roll this out 299 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: right now. 300 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 8: Okay, So to back up for a minute, On Friday morning, 301 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 8: Reuters published this kind of bombshell piece that said that 302 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 8: Tesla was completely scrapping plans for a twenty five thousand 303 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 8: dollar car and focusing on the Robotaxi instead, and the 304 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 8: stock went down. Then Musk tweeted that Reuter's was lying, 305 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 8: and then he tweeted that the Robotaxi unveiling would be 306 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 8: on August eighth, like four months from now. 307 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: So there was a lot happening that day. And if you. 308 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 8: Read the Walter Isaacson book, you know that within Tesla 309 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 8: there was this big debate about whether the Robotaxi should 310 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 8: come first or the twenty five thousand dollar car should 311 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 8: come first, and ultimately they decided that they were going 312 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 8: to build both on the same next generation platform that 313 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 8: was going to use this unboxed assembly process. To this date, 314 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 8: like Tesla itself has not really clarified what the hell 315 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 8: is going on. And I flew to La over the 316 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 8: weekend to try to buttonhole Frondz von Holshausen, their chief designer, 317 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 8: to ask him, is this twenty five thousand dollar car 318 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 8: dead delay on the back burner. He said, stay tuned, 319 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 8: don't believe everything that you read. So anyway, the bottom 320 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 8: line is that clearly Elon Musk has decided that the 321 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 8: robotaxi is the priority. Because we are now going to 322 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 8: see a robotaxi in August. They haven't said anything about 323 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 8: unveiling the twenty five. 324 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 3: Thousand dollars car. 325 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 8: And what's happening with the stock right now is that 326 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 8: once again, like Musk is kind of like pumping up 327 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 8: the faithful and the retail shareholders and the people that 328 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 8: are betting big on AI and autonomy with this idea 329 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 8: that Tesla is a leader in AI and that their 330 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 8: full self driving software is so good and advancing so 331 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 8: quickly thanks to all of the data that they've collected 332 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 8: that they are really on this path to eventually having 333 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 8: a robotaxi. So I think it's just a very interesting dynamic. 334 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 8: It's one we've seen out played before where they dangle 335 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 8: a new product to keep the story alive, and it worked. 336 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 8: I mean, the stock went up Friday after his tweet. 337 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 8: The shares were up roughly five percent. Monday, they've opened 338 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 8: slightly positive today. 339 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 3: It's fascinating. 340 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, Max, we've been over this before. This is a 341 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 2: tried and true play from the Elon Musk playbook, which 342 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 2: is when other things aren't going great and the narrative 343 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 2: is going against you and the stock is going down, 344 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 2: down and down, which it is. After years of absolutely skyrocketing, 345 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: Tesla has been tumbling this year, and so you say, 346 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 2: look over here, I've got this thing. 347 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I predicted this last week. 348 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: If you believe the full self driving story, which I think, 349 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: as we've talked about in this podcast, lots of reasons 350 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: to be skeptical of that story. You know, they've been 351 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: talking about it for a bit basically a decade and 352 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: haven't made a ton of like you know, verifiable progress. 353 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: If you believe the story nonetheless, then these results don't 354 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: matter that much because in the future, the robotaxes are 355 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: going to come and it's going to change everything. And 356 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: so I think we're going to see over the next 357 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: few months that's going to be the story they go. 358 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: You know, Elon Musk himself during the last earnings call, 359 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: he said, we're between these two growth ways. That's kind 360 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: of code for sales aren't so good, and his solution, 361 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: the proposed solution during that call, which which just happened, 362 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: was that they were going to work on this lower 363 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: cost EV And so that's what makes this Reuter's thing 364 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: so surprising and Elon Musk's he said, Reuters is lying, 365 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 1: but he's also at the same time kind of tacitly 366 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: confirmed it by saying that they're having this robotaxi unveiling. 367 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: He's also replied to some Tesla influencers who have posited 368 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: that this it's not that we're killing the model too, 369 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: it's that we're prioritizing the robotaxi. But however you frame this, 370 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: it is a it's a change from what he said, 371 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: and it's kind of a big change. 372 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 2: So Dan, I want you to take even a further 373 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: step back for the uninitiated here and remind us of 374 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: the exact technical differences between autopilot, full self driving and 375 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: robotaxi and how they interact. 376 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 8: So to go way back, I mean Elon has been 377 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 8: talking about these ideas is since master Plan Part duh, 378 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 8: which was published in Could Forget That published which was 379 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 8: published in July of twenty sixteen, and he talked about 380 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 8: pursuing the master Plan and this idea that eventually your 381 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 8: car will be able to drive itself, and it will 382 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 8: be able to make money for you the owner instead 383 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 8: of sitting parked in front of your house or sitting 384 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 8: in a garage. Well, you're at work, David. Your car 385 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 8: can join the shared Tesla fleet and cruise around and 386 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 8: operate as a as like an uber and make money 387 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 8: for you, and that you will gain. You will make 388 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 8: money using your car. And so this promise of this 389 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 8: shared autonomous fleet has been part of the plan for 390 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 8: a long time. And then a couple of years ago, 391 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 8: Tesla said that they were creating a dedicated robotaxi. At 392 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 8: their investor day, like in March of twenty twenty three, 393 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 8: they like, did this big thing about the next generation 394 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 8: platform was going to be the cheaper car and the 395 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 8: robotaxi built on the same platform, but like the vehicles 396 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 8: were like under a sheet, so we didn't really see 397 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 8: what they looked like. And I think what you're seeing 398 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 8: now is that Tesla does have a lot of data. 399 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 8: They have thousands of customers driving on autopilot already and 400 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 8: then a growing number of customers who have bought what 401 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 8: they call FSD, and all of that data is feeding 402 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 8: back into the algorithm and they're training their neural networks 403 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 8: on it, and they just Tesla announced like also on 404 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 8: Friday that Tesla customers have now driven a billion miles 405 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 8: on FSD. 406 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 3: That's a lot of miles. 407 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 2: And like, yeah, that sounds like a lot. 408 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 8: I mean, it sounds like a lot. How they like 409 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 8: are what exactly they're doing with the data, how they're 410 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 8: labeling it is unclear, but they have a lot of 411 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 8: data that they are using, and people who have FSD 412 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 8: are really excited about it. They're like, this is a 413 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 8: step change. It's so much better. It's driving point to 414 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 8: point with no interventions. I mean there's videos all over 415 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 8: YouTube and x of owners being like, yeah, like I've 416 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 8: had problems with FSD in the past, but version twelve 417 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 8: point three is really good, getting really better. 418 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 2: So the idea is, as it improves and improves and 419 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: improves the robot does it both helps people drive their 420 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: cars with full self driving, and then it is in turn, 421 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: what is going to power these drones of sorts that 422 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: will be driving themselves, perhaps even without a wheel I guess, 423 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 2: I mean, do we know are these are these robotaxis? 424 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: They're gonna be wheel less. 425 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 3: That's the speculation in twenty forty. 426 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: Maybe, I mean, yeah, that's the plan. Like Dannis said, 427 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm not. 428 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: Gonna see a wheel less car on August eighth. 429 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: You might see a wheeless car on August eight. I'd 430 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: like to remind everyone that there have been a lot 431 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: of these AI demos and they have been extreme. As 432 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: Dana kind of hinted, they've been extremely optimistic. 433 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 7: There was the first version of the robot was a 434 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 7: guy in a like resuit. 435 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I would not be surprised if we see 436 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: something on that level. In other words, like something that 437 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: looks like a robotaxi but may not in fact be Listen, 438 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: the thing is, Dan is right, like they have this, 439 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: They do have this big data set and they are 440 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: doing something that is I think technically interesting and impressive. 441 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: Their driver's assistant system is either as good or better 442 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: depending on who you talk to as the other market 443 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: leading driver assistant systems, but that is not a robotaxi. 444 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,239 Speaker 1: A robotaxi has to be a lot better than a 445 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: car that is that is a human driver at it 446 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: at all times. One other thing that Elon did recently 447 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: is he changed the name of this product from FSD 448 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: beta full Self Driving Beta to FSD parenthetical supervised, which 449 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,239 Speaker 1: is kind of like saying full self driving parenthetical but 450 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: not actually self driving. And California, which regulates this industry 451 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: the most closely tracks makes companies report how many miles 452 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: of robotaxi driving they've done each year. You can look 453 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: at this up and so it's on the web. Tesla 454 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: has one of these permits. Waimo drove several million miles. Crews, 455 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: the other market leader having huge problems getting to market, 456 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: drove millions of miles. Tesla drove zero miles. There's no 457 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: indication that they've done a ton of real robotaxi driving, 458 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: Like they may be a very long way from this 459 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: from the grand plan of the drones. 460 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so to jump into that a little bit more 461 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: than in the robotaxi race to market, where exactly do 462 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: we think Tesla fits right now? Is it in the lead. 463 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 8: So they just have taken a very interesting different approach, 464 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 8: like Waimo is offering robotaxi rides in cities like San 465 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 8: Francisco and La and Phoenix and Austin, and they're doing 466 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 8: like these rise and these kind of geofenced areas where 467 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 8: they've mapped the entire train. Tesla's approach is like unleash 468 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 8: FSD onto the world legally and regulatory wise, like customers 469 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 8: still in control, but let's use that data to like 470 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 8: train train our neural net and then eventually we will 471 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 8: get there. And I think what we're going to see 472 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 8: on August eighth is they will take the sheet off 473 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 8: of the design. But it doesn't mean that it's actually 474 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 8: like ready. It's just like a recruiting event so that 475 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 8: like people that are interested in AI will join the company. 476 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 8: And Tesla does this over and over again. They unveil 477 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 8: a product, but it's like years until the product is 478 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 8: actually in the market. I mean, we first saw the 479 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 8: cyber truck in twenty nineteen. They're not even breaking out 480 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 8: sales of the cyber truck yet, even though I did 481 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 8: see many cyber trucks when I was at this event 482 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 8: in La. So I just want to caution everyone that 483 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 8: just because they're going to have a product unveiling on 484 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 8: August eighth, doesn't mean that a shared robotaxi. 485 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 3: Fleet is about this is going to hit the market. 486 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 8: Some people are saying, we're not going to see this 487 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 8: for a decade. 488 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: But having said that, we will still do a watch 489 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 2: party that I'm going to bring the popcorn. I guess 490 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: to that point, though, that we've seen this show before, 491 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 2: right where he creates a lot of hype and pomp 492 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 2: and circumstance around the next big thing to come as 493 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: a means of keeping the stock elevated at incredibly lofty valuations. 494 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 2: Are we getting diminishing returns from that gambit, Max Schafkin, 495 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: or does it still work as brilliantly as it always does? 496 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: As Dana said earlier, the stock rose five percent yesterday 497 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 2: and it started up again today. 498 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: All Right, a little context though that the stock had 499 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: been going down quite a bit. Stock was a relative 500 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: low point there. I don't think these investors are being 501 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: totally irrational. I think I just said I think this Robotaxi. 502 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: If I were betting on it, I would bet on 503 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: more than a decade. But if you're an investor and 504 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: you're looking at a company that, if it's just a 505 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: car company, is worth some tiny fraction of where it is, 506 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: it does seem the better bet is the long shot 507 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,239 Speaker 1: bet for the Robotaxi, even if their skeptics like me saying, hey, 508 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: it's going to take a long time. I think from 509 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: an investor perspective, it makes sense. It's the only strategy 510 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: he actually. 511 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 2: Didn't at some point say, and you guys correct me 512 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 2: if I'm wrong that without the robotaxis gambit, Tessel's essentially 513 00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 2: worth some iteration of nothing. 514 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: If you're somebody who believes deeply in the kind of 515 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: like electric future and not the aggrandizement of Elon Musk, 516 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: but in deploying millions of electric cars and arresting climate change, 517 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: then this is kind of like a depressing development because 518 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: you have the guy essentially the architect of the rise 519 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: of the electric car. 520 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 7: Kind of turning his back on it. 521 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: I mean, the original master plan, part uh was originally 522 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: there was gonna be a sports car and then an 523 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: expensive car, and then you're eventually going to get to 524 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: this twenty five thousand dollars ev And if we don't 525 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,719 Speaker 1: see that, then in some sense, like that is that 526 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 1: is a huge pivot from what the dream of Tesla 527 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: was and what I think the brand of Tesla is 528 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: still to many people. 529 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 8: Well, we have to remember to remind everyone that, yeah, 530 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 8: the original mission was the advent of electrification. Then Google 531 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 8: came along and started doing weaymo, and Elon Musk here 532 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 8: in Silicon Valley was like, oh my god, we got 533 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 8: to get on this. And Tesla like added autonomy to 534 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 8: the mission. And when we're in this world where every 535 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 8: automaker has some kind of electric vehicle offering, being just 536 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 8: like a pure EV maker is no longer enough of 537 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 8: a differentiator. 538 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 3: And I have to say it. I touched to a 539 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 3: lot of investors. 540 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 8: Over the weekend, and a lot of long term investors 541 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 8: like are very excited about this. They're making the point 542 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 8: that like software sales is a much better play with 543 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 8: higher margins than manufacturing. 544 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 3: Manufacturing is really tough, and. 545 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 8: Like sales are like interest rates are high and sales 546 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 8: are lousy right now, So like, why go to all 547 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 8: the expense of making the cheaper car when like you're 548 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 8: not even selling them all the model wise and model 549 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 8: threes that you have in inventory. Focus on the road taxi? 550 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 8: That makes sense. And so to some of the diehards, 551 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 8: like this is the master plan is finally coming to fruition. 552 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: Does he need to pen a new master plan? Are 553 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 2: we still good with? 554 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: No? 555 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 8: They know they did, they did master they did master 556 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 8: Plan Part three, They did Master Plana was a year ago. 557 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: But the thing is like the the It's probably a 558 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: better move if you're if the choice is try to 559 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: sell this twenty five thousand dollars car or convince some 560 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: fanboy who hasn't paid the twelve thousand dollars for full 561 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: self driving like software margins are, as Dana says, like 562 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: a lot better than automotive margins. And if these Chinese 563 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: companies and Ford and other Day and GM making competent 564 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: mid range or even low end cars, you do sort 565 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: of understand why Elon Musk is like feeling like the 566 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: distracted boyfriend, where you have climate change here and robo taxi. 567 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: So just say that there is something attractive about the 568 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: idea of, as I ponder my retirement down the road, 569 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 2: of owning a fleet of these things and having them 570 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: to spit out all this money, and while they're just 571 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 2: driving around churning out money for me, I take that 572 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 2: money and I gamble and I lose it at the racetrack. 573 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 2: That sounds pretty damn good. I gotta say, we need 574 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: to get to our final segment here, which we are 575 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 2: calling and this is a totally new one. We've done 576 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 2: feuds of the Week in the past, but that's not 577 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: what this is this is the enchantment of the week. Okay, 578 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: I didn't come up with that word. I think someone 579 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: else did. We're going Enchantment of the Week Elon Musk 580 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: and Nelson Peltz, the investor. We're just going to play 581 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,719 Speaker 2: the tape from CNBC. 582 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 5: Elon is a friend of mine. I think the world 583 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 5: of him. This guy has no ego. He is willing 584 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 5: to listen to anybody. It has the same attitude we 585 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 5: do that will steal any good idea and be proud 586 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 5: of it. He's a brilliant guy, understands so many things 587 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 5: about the world, and all you want to do is 588 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 5: listen to a lot of what he's got to say. 589 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 5: But he's a good listener as well. 590 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: So Dana, Elon has no ego. I am told what's 591 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: going on here? What led Nelson pelts to to say 592 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: these things? 593 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 8: So I'm fascinated by this budding bromance which has been 594 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 8: going on for a while. Nelson Peltz lives in West 595 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 8: Palm Beach, Florida, and I guess commutes back and forth 596 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 8: between Florida and New York. Elon Musk has been to 597 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 8: Palm Beach like three times this year, and I think 598 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 8: the reason why is because Pelts and Elon have joined 599 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 8: forces against this Disney thing. So Pelts wage this like 600 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 8: proxy battle with Disney. He was trying to get his 601 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 8: slate directed to the Disney board. They lost, but they 602 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 8: both hate Bob Iger apparently, or they are united in 603 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 8: their like fear that Disney has become too woke or 604 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 8: whatever you want to call it. 605 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,479 Speaker 2: The Pelts hates Eiger or just feels like he's leading 606 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: the company down the wrong track. 607 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 3: I guess it's the latter. 608 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 8: Yeah, hate is perhaps too strong a word, but we 609 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 8: saw Musk come out and basically urge people to vote 610 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 8: for Peltz's slate. I mean, and Musk was calling investors 611 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 8: on behalf of Pelts. The other thing that's going on 612 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 8: is that both men seem to be in the Donald 613 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 8: Trump camp when it comes to the twenty twenty four election. 614 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 8: Pelts has hosted fundraisers for Trump. Elon certainly seems to 615 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 8: be indicating that he is more likely to endorse Trump 616 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 8: than Biden. He hasn't actively endorsed yet, but like the 617 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 8: politically they are aligned, and they both also share a 618 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 8: lot of concerns about immigration, So I think that their 619 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,239 Speaker 8: incoudes on more than this Disney thing, and I'm very 620 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 8: interested to see where this goes. 621 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 7: Max. 622 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: One of the things that jumped out at me about 623 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 2: this was as Elon urges his followers or those of 624 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 2: his followers who happened to be Disney shareholders, to back 625 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: Nelson pelt in this proxy fight. Nelson Peltz indeed this 626 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 2: long time activist investor. But the funny thing is the 627 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 2: vote was pretty much already over. 628 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 7: Yeah, this is I. 629 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 3: Mean, I don't know. 630 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 7: I think Dan is right. They're spending time together, they 631 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 7: certainly have some shared interests. 632 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: You listen to that Nelson Pelt's endorsement, and I don't 633 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: know you, but I don't think he knows Elon very. 634 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 7: Well because that is not a very accurate discus. 635 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 2: But would say those things about Elon. 636 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 7: No, of course not. 637 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: It's just like the he's like a guy who is 638 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: trying to make the world's richest man happy. 639 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 7: And we've heard this. 640 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: I've heard that exact thing five or six times this 641 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: year from Alex Jones and various right wing politicians on 642 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: Twitter spaces. He's just saying a standard pattern of pro 643 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: Elon things as a kind of thank you for this endorsement, 644 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: and this endorsement was like super tepid. Elon didn't say 645 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: Nelson's vision for Disney is great. He comes in the 646 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: eleventh hour, basically when Pelts is already about to lose 647 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: this thing and says, I don't own any Disney shares, 648 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: but I would buy some if Nelson, you know, wins, 649 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: which to me is not the kind of like full 650 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: throated activist investor. 651 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 7: This is sort of low energy activism. 652 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: And I think the truth is that Number one, I 653 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: don't think Elon really wants to be an activist investor, because. 654 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 7: He famously hosts He's. 655 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: Missed investors, and like he has made comments about activist 656 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: investor not only in the context of Tesla, but in general, 657 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: Like it is not a thing that he in the 658 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: past has seemed to value. I don't think he is 659 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: the kind of person who, at least in the past, 660 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: would have said very nice things about somebody like Nelson Peltz. 661 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: And the other thing, right is he just has bigger 662 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: fish to fry. He's a little bit mad, I think 663 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: at Bob Iger over the Twitter ads or whatever. But 664 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: this is it's just not a huge issue, and it's 665 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,959 Speaker 1: not something that serves him well to be sucked into either. 666 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 2: So Dana on that point, to wrap up here, is 667 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,959 Speaker 2: this enchantment of the week actually really just a few 668 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 2: to the week in disguise? I e this is really 669 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 2: just him trying to stick it to Eiger. 670 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 8: I think it's I think it's gonna be like a 671 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 8: low burn enchantment that's gonna continue into the election season. 672 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 3: That's what that's my prediction. 673 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: Excellent, there we are, Okay, well we will watch this 674 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 2: play out. 675 00:34:59,360 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 5: Max. 676 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us. Pleasure to be here, Dana, 677 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 2: great to see you always. This episode was produced by 678 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 2: our supervising producer, Magnus Henrickson. Naomi Shavin and Rayhan Harmonci 679 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 2: are our senior editors. The idea for this very show 680 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 2: also came from Rayhon Blake Maples handles engineering, and we 681 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: get special editing assistants from Jeff Grocott. The Elon Inc. 682 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 2: Theme is written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex 683 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 2: sugi Urra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and 684 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 2: Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. I'm David Papadopolis. 685 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 2: If you have a minute, rate and review our show. 686 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: It'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.