1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: My name is Robert lamp and on Jergie bas This 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: is part two of our little series here on syphilis. 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: The first episode, Syphilis the Great Imitator, dealt with the 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: the organism that causes syphilista, which is known as Trepanema palladum, 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: actually the subspecies of Trepema palladum, and this is all 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: caused by this tiny, tightly coiled spiral key, this little 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: bacterium that ends up causing all of this trouble for 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: those that infected. So if you have not listened to 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: that first episode, go back, have a listen. We will 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,959 Speaker 1: walk you through all the stages of a syphilis infection 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: from that from the tiny annoyances of the primary infection 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: on up to the disastrously deforming and ultimately lethal stages 15 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: of tertiary syphilis, as well as the treatment of it. Finally, um, 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: all right, this has been mentioned in the other episode, 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: but at bears mentioning again. The first recorded epidemic of 18 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: narial syphilis occurred in Europe in by the close of 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: the fifteenth century. It was pretty rampant. In fact, in Naples, Italy, 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: there was such a huge outbreak that the pope that said, hey, 21 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: we need some help here. Soldiers were brought in, five 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: thousand of them. And what do you think happened, Well, 23 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: they got to the prostitutes and they got more syphilis, 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: and then of course they just got worse and worse. 25 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: So what we're talking about is is a disease that 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: ravished for centuries throughout Europe, and today we're going to 27 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: try to get at the origins of it, and they 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna try to tease out some of the morality 29 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: that has been paired with it, as well as the 30 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: sort of xenophobia that surrounds it as well. Yeahs, as 31 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: I mentioned before, it's it's it's kind of difficult to 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: overstate the importance of syphilis in Western culture for those 33 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: four and a half plus centuries. Um that it that 34 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: that it was a problem. Um And And as we 35 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: discussed in the last episode, syphilis is not eradicated. It 36 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: is still around the day. It's still something to be 37 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: concerned about, and it's still something we have to to 38 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: treat both wet with with penicillin and with education. But 39 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: during the fourteenth century to the early twentieth century, it 40 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: was really permeating the fabric of culture. It was rampant. Yes, 41 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: when we break down the percentages of it, it's going 42 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: to vary depending on where in Europe you're looking, but 43 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: you're generally looking at a ten to fifteen percent of 44 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: the population has syphilis. Uh, you know, with some degree 45 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: uh you know, margin for error there, and then uh 46 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: upwards of in military because then you have younger men 47 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: who are initially traveling around and they are the ones 48 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: that are spreading it from place to place, visiting prostitutes, 49 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: et cetera. Yeah, and because of its association with Columbus, 50 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: who sailed under the Spanish flag, it was called the 51 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: Spanish disease for a while, and then the French called 52 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: it the Neopolitan or Italian disease because they caught it 53 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: from residents of Naples, or should they say when Naples, 54 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: of course, was one of the major outbreak areas. The 55 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: Russians called it a Polish disease, the Polish called it 56 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: a Russian disease, and the Turks called it a Christian disease, 57 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: while the English called it the French park. So what 58 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: do you see here, a lot of finger pointing. Yes, 59 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: it's always the other that you blame the disease, and 60 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: you have to draw that firm line in your worldview 61 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: between we the clean and they the disease, and hope 62 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: that that line doesn't come to envelope you as well. Um, 63 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: the the Columbus thing is so fascinating and it's and 64 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: it's a it's a point that is continually studied and 65 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: argued about. But again we see that first big outbreak 66 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: in and as we all know in four nine two 67 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: Columbus sailed the ocean. So it sounds it sounds almost 68 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: too good to be true, slash too horrible to be 69 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: treat It almost sounds too easy, but but we keep 70 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: coming back to it time and time again. Here we 71 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: have Columbus sailing to this drastically new land and their contact, 72 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: be it sexual or merely skin on skin, is occurring 73 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: between members of his his crew and the native population. 74 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: And then they return to Europe, and then in their 75 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: wake we see the emergence of this, this this powerful illness. Yeah, 76 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: and you see a lot of wrongheaded ideas about this, 77 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: this idea of xenophobia, right, this fear of strangers, this 78 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: idea that there are savages that have uh spread this 79 00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: disease to Europeans via Columbus. Yeah, you laid with a 80 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: member of another nation, you late with a member of 81 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: another another race. All these these weird taboos spring up, 82 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: uh and seemingly in concert with the parameters of the illness. 83 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: As we mentioned before, one of the reasons that syphilis 84 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: is such a captivating topic is because it's so rife 85 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: for metaphor, you know, be it a metaphor of morality, 86 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: of a metaphor of racism, nationalism, sexism, whatever you want 87 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: to throw at it. It seems to conform to that 88 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: that form rather nicely. Yeah. Now we will get back 89 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: to Columbus and we're going to try to get to 90 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: the origins of of syphilis. But before we do, it's 91 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: just worth it to say that this is syphilis, and 92 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: trying to get to the origins of it is really difficult. Um, 93 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: it's very hard to study. There are many strains, some 94 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: of which don't exist anymore, and then you have anecdotal 95 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: claims throughout the centuries, so you can't really pair that with, 96 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, a systematic approach to say, yes, indeed, this 97 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: was a case of syphilis, because again, as we have 98 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: mentioned before, syphilis is the great imitator. So it's very 99 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: possible that someone had leprosy and not syphilis exactly. And 100 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: and again on that difficult to study. Note, you you 101 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: can't grow syphilis in a culture. You can't have a 102 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: little petrie dish of syphilis. Even today, we have to 103 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: study it in rabbits, so right, you have to have 104 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: it in an actual organism to really get a good 105 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,799 Speaker 1: idea about it. That being said, there have been these 106 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: pre Columbian theories kicked around. In other words, this idea 107 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: of hey, could syphilis have existed before the New World, 108 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: previous to the late fourteen hundreds in the old world. 109 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: That's again called the pre Columbian theory. Yeah, and this 110 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: is this theory is basically that to say that, well, 111 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: when we have other illnesses, and if you look back 112 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: at some accounts of leprosy, you might say, well that 113 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: that kind of leprosy doesn't match up as well with 114 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,799 Speaker 1: our modern understanding of leprosy. Perhaps that was a different ailment, 115 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: Perhaps that was in fact syphilis. And instead we're just 116 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: kind of latching on to this easy explanation of Columbus. 117 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: Since this groundbreaking um expedition takes place just a few 118 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: years before this major outbreak. But of course, the world 119 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: because I mean it makes sense, right, I mean, the 120 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: world is more complicated than one ship sailing off and 121 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: coming back. There are other movements going on in the world. 122 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: It's a time of great change. People are moving around, 123 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: not only throughout Europe, but you have movements going into 124 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: into into Asia and Africa. So what so why not? 125 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: Why why could there not be another route for this 126 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: illness to take? And we'll discuss that, we'll really try 127 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of this. But so when 128 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: we call when we say pre Columbian, we're talking about 129 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: Old World. When we talk about Columbia and we're talking 130 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: about New World generally here old world is Europe, Old 131 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: world is is Western civilization. New World the America's Columbia, etcetera. Right, 132 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: And if you're going to talk about New World, you 133 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: have to talk about something called yaws and facial Now, 134 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: these are tropical diseases that are closely related to tromponema palladum, 135 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: which is of course syphilis, although they are different. Bagel 136 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: causes mouth stores and lumps in the bone, and yaws 137 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: caused skin stores and disfiguring growths on the legs. So 138 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: of course they're they're related to syphilis, but they are 139 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: non venereal, right, they're spread through skin to skin contact, 140 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: They're not They're they're not straight up venereal diseases. Um. 141 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: You know, granted you could catch them in skin to 142 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: skin contact during sexual intercourse, but they're not depending on 143 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: that as their mode of transmission. Yeah, but these are 144 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: all trimp and emial diseases that are These are all 145 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: close relatives of the subspecies of Trimpandema palladum that causes syphilis. 146 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: And we bring them up because they're important to study. 147 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: If you're if you're trying to look at where syphilis, 148 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: syphilis originated from, then you're gonna want to look at 149 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: yaws and basil because paleo pathologists Bruce and Christine Rothschild 150 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: used that information to point toward a new World origin 151 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: of syphilis. They examined six hundred and eighty seven skeletons 152 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: from archaeological sites in the US. We're talking about arranging 153 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: an age from four hundred to six thousand years and 154 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: what they found is that populations to the south look 155 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: to have syphilis, while those to the north had yaws. 156 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: And then by contrast, they examined one thousand Old World 157 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: skeletons dating to before contact with the New World and 158 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: they found zero cases of syphilis. So this kind of 159 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: gets you onto the route of well, maybe the New 160 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: World did have the case of syphilis, although it's not 161 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: that clear cut, as well discussed, and this leads us 162 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: to what is called the Unitarian hypothesis, which has nothing 163 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: to do with Unitarians in the religious sense of the world, 164 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: where don't worry, Unitarians, We're not We're not nailing this 165 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: one on you. Unitarian in this sense that that it 166 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: unites the Old World and New World hypotheses regarding the 167 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: emergence of syphilis in Europe. The basic idea here is 168 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: that you do have Columbus and New sailors setting sail 169 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: from Europe to the New World to the Americans, and 170 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: when they're there, they do come into skin to skin 171 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: contact sexual and non sexual with natives there, and then 172 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: they end up acquiring trimpanemal diseases. Now, you know, again, 173 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: think to the Jewel, think to to tent, to, think 174 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: to yads, but not necessarily syphilis proper but they bring 175 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,199 Speaker 1: back a relative of syphilis, and they bring it back 176 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: to a drastically new incubation world. We're talking about a 177 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: different environment because in the in the America's uh, you know, 178 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: individuals with syphilis they're gonna largely be in you know, 179 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: smaller communities. But then you bring them to a European 180 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: port town. You bring it to a world where individuals 181 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: are wearing more clothes, thus allowing for less skin on 182 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: skin contact. You're bringing it to a world where you 183 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: have brothels, a world where you have tiny ships tightly 184 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: packed with men sailing from one port to the next 185 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: port throughout Europe. And what happens, according to this hypothesis 186 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: is that the the treponemal disease changes and and we 187 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: get this subspecies of Trumpanema palladum that causes syphilis as 188 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: we know it. So it is a story of mutation 189 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: under new environmental circumstances. Yeah, if anyone is interested in 190 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: taking a deeper dive into this and and some of 191 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: the skeletal evidence behind this, there is a paper two 192 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: thousand and twelve paper called the Science behind pre Columbian 193 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: evidence of Syphilis and Europe research by documentary and that 194 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: goes into this, uh much more. And I wanted to 195 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: quote Molly Zuckerman. She's one of the authors of paper. 196 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: She says, in reality, it appears that venereal syphilis was 197 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: the byproduct of two different populations meeting and exchanging a pathogen. 198 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: It was an adaptive event, the natural selection of a disease, 199 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: independent of morality or blame. Yeah, it's not as situation 200 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: of ah, the sinful sailors are all those diseased natives 201 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: in this new world. It's it's something more complicated than that. Yeah. 202 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: And you know, at the outset of this, the researchers 203 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: for this paper, they really wanted to sort of disprove 204 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: this idea that Columbus and his crew were vectors for 205 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: syphilis because I thought, it can't be that just you know, 206 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: Columbus and his his guys hung out in America and 207 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: then brought it back to Europe and spread syphilis all 208 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: over the place. Can't be that simple. And it's not 209 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: that simple, um, you know, because the trick here is 210 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: that it mutated, it adapted rather um. But they really 211 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,599 Speaker 1: they went into it with the intent of saying, no, 212 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: it can't be yeah, because it does sound like something 213 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: you would read and sort of conspiracy theory kind of 214 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: message board, right, like, well, these two dates line up, 215 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: we can correlate this little little bit. Therefore, that must 216 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: be what happened. Um Now, Now, we do want to 217 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: drive home that these are all hypotheses and that this 218 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: is still an area that everyone that there are a 219 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: lot of papers that come out about this, there's a 220 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: lot of discussion, a lot of argument, lots did a 221 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: lot of disagreement. So there's no definitive answer here, and 222 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: it may indeed be one of those areas where we 223 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: never have a definitive answer. It's true. And uh, you 224 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: know that the researchers who worked on that paper also 225 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: worked on some of them worked on a different paper 226 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: looking at fifty four published reports of pre Columbian evidence 227 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: and skeletal remains of syphilis, and they found there that 228 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: again there wasn't enough supporting information and real evidence to 229 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: say that it existed in its form of syphilis as 230 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: we know and talk about it now in the old world. 231 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: So again, there seems to be some sort of direction 232 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: here in terms of the way that the river is 233 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: streaming with information, But it doesn't mean that this is 234 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: the endpoint of the origins of syphilis. And we're gonna 235 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: talk about more of the sort of sights and sounds 236 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: and smells of what it might be like in a 237 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: syphilitic era in Europe. And I wanted to just read this. 238 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: This is from the BBC, A Cultural History of Syphilis. 239 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: It says in the fourteen nineties and apparently new and 240 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: terrifying disease struck naples in southern Italy and swept fire 241 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: like across Europe, reaping a dreadful human cost. It must 242 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: have been as though Hell had come to earth. Pustules 243 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: spread across the gentitals and the face of its many sufferers. 244 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: Unbearable gastro intestinal pain followed upon fevers, screamingly severe headaches 245 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: and other symptoms. Finally, flush fell from bones. Syphilis had 246 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: arrived in Europe, where it would stay misunderstood, lacking any 247 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: form of cure, for nearly five years. Yeah, that's that's 248 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: pretty rough sounding. Um. And again, remember that this was 249 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: not a disease that affected just the poor. This was 250 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: a disease that affected rich and poor alike, that affected 251 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: royalty and peasant, that affected clergy members, anyone that was 252 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: engaging in sexual contact, uh, random risk, a high risk 253 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: of acquiring uh this this illness. And yeah, this was 254 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: not a quiet sort of illness. I mean people could 255 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: smell you before you even came around. And we're talking 256 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: about rotting flesh. We are talking about your face bearing 257 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: the marks of syphilis, your body bearing the marks of it. 258 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: In fact, you could even kind of see it as 259 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: the sort of scarlet letter A brought into your flesh. Yeah. Again, 260 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: the metaphorical power of syphilis is unavoidable here because you 261 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: already have the idea, uh in Western culture, that that 262 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: physical deformities may signal inner deformities, that that that that 263 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: an inner sin can have a fleshly manifestation. And it's 264 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: super easy to apply that line of thinking to syphilis, 265 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: because here's something that's spread through sex. Here is something 266 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: that's spread through uh through sin, if you will, and 267 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: and then has these these terrifying physical um manifestations, certainly 268 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: in its later stages. So it's it's easy then for 269 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: someone to point the figure and say this, this is 270 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: the way. These are the wages of sin right here. 271 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: All you have to do is look at this individual, 272 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: Look at the look at the sores on their body. 273 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: Look at the deformities of their facial feature. Look what 274 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: has happened to them? Uh, And and so you see 275 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: this just throughout its stuff, throughout its four and a 276 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: half centuries of unchecked rampaging, and even beyond into the 277 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: twentieth century and even into the twenty one. There's there's 278 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: a moral aspect to syphilis and to other venereal diseases. 279 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: This is something you caught because you were doing something 280 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: that was wrong. Like that's the script that is often 281 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: applied to the scenario. Yeah, and now people have the 282 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: sort of calling card hallmarks of that disease. Right. They 283 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: look at you and they say, oh, let me see 284 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: you've you've got a nasty rash there, you've lost your hair, um, 285 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: perhaps your nose is even caving in into what's called 286 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: saddle nose. And so what do people do, Well, they 287 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,479 Speaker 1: try to find anything and everything that might cover up 288 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: their transgressions or what would be perceived as transgression. Right. 289 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: And bear in mind again through all of this, that 290 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: there are no set of standard symptoms for syphilis, and 291 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: there are stages where it's undetectable. So so every everyone's 292 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: going crazy with ways to detect and treat it, while 293 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: the illness itself is is so difficult to get your 294 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: hands on. It's the great imitator, it's the it's the 295 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: great hider um. So yeah, bad stuff is happening to 296 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: your body in the varying stages of syphilis. So one 297 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: thing you might do is to, of course, you may 298 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: cover things up. Since we were wearing clothes, we're wearing makeup. 299 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: You can apply clothing and makeup to cover up your source. Yeah. 300 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: In fact, syphilis just creates this whole cottage industry of 301 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: different things you can buy and do to either feel 302 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: better or look better. So there might be some sort 303 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: of snake oil that you can buy right that has 304 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: absolutely no medical marriage. Or you might visit your local 305 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: wig maker quite a bit, because again, you want to 306 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: cover up the bald patch on your head or the 307 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: baldness so that people don't suspect that you have syphilis. 308 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: And if you are a prostitute, American is a must 309 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: because yeah, you might be saving your pupd care any 310 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: way to cut down on lights, but then you also 311 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: might have an outbreak of syphilis down there. You want 312 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: to disguise the signs, so you get a wig for 313 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: your genitals also called a mercan, which is not a 314 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: Muppet character. Yeah. They apparently used a lot now in 315 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: for films, especially historical films. Yeah, but historically it was 316 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: more a matter of venereal diseases for the men. Generally, 317 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: wasn't really an option because the well there's just more 318 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: to cover up down there, and uh, just do a 319 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: Google im his search, he'll see what I'm talking about. 320 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, there are some rely just sticks there 321 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: that you can't quite uh cover with American. But what 322 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: happens when your nose caves in and your flesh begins 323 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: to rot away, Well, this creates a problem, and in 324 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: general it was kind of a rough time for noses anyway. 325 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: If you remember the story of Tico Briy, the the astronomer, 326 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: I think we did an episode on him, or at 327 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: least he's come he comes up a time we did. Yeah, Yeah, 328 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: fascinating individual. Um. There may be some biographers that that 329 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: creep syphilis in there, but but I think it's pretty 330 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: established that that he lost the nose in a duel. 331 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: So on on one level, you can lose that nose 332 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: in a duel. Living an adventurous lifestyle, getting yourselves into 333 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: arguments with other armed gentleman. But you can also acquire 334 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: sephilis through your adventurous lifestyle. And then you see the 335 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: saddle nose, the eventual rotting away of the nose. So 336 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: one thing you can do is you can buy a 337 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: fake nose to where over your destroyed nose. And this 338 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: is this is as simple as it sounds. If you've 339 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: ever seen a digital underground video and you've seen Humpty 340 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: Hump with the big fake nose on his the on 341 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: a face who incidentally, according to the backstory, lost it 342 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: in a frying accident, I believe so, So no dueling 343 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: or syphilis involved with Humpty. But but it's basically the 344 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: same scenario, a fake nose that is strapped onto the 345 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: body or held with wires over the over the the 346 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: the vacant area. Yeah, in fact, and this is according 347 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: to Lindsay fitz Harris, who is in medical historian and 348 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: writes on the Kirojian Apprentice, which is a great website 349 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: documenting medical surgeries. She writes that this deformity was so 350 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: common amongst these suffering from the pots, as it was 351 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: sometimes called, that no nose clubs sprung up in London 352 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: on February eighteen seventy for The Star reported Miss Sanborn 353 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: tells us and an eccentric gentleman, having taken taken a 354 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 1: fancy to see a large party of noseless persons, invited 355 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: everyone thus afflicted whom he met in the street to 356 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: dine on a certain day at a tavern where he 357 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: formed them into a brotherhood. And on this site again 358 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: that Lindsay fitz Harris is put together, there is a 359 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: great example of one of these sort of noses that's 360 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: attached to a pair of glasses, that's attached to a 361 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: sort of almost looks like a headgear, like early headgear braces, 362 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: and it's one that that a female patient war Yeah, 363 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: and you can imagine that warn with a wig, and 364 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: it makes it makes perfect sense. And you know, the 365 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: no Nose Club also makes a lot of sense because 366 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: if you're you're dealing with this illness, you're having to 367 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: cover yourself up and where this this this fake nose 368 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: over your your your face. I mean, there's gonna come 369 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: a time when you want to be able to just 370 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: take that off and be yourself, no matter what has 371 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: happened to yourself in this illness. You want to be 372 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: able to just say, hey, here we are. We may 373 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: not have noses anymore because of this illness, but hey, 374 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: we're people, and we want to look at each other 375 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: like we're people and not worry about oh whatsever and 376 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: all these other people that don't have syphilis, or don't 377 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: realize they have syphilis, or in other stages of the 378 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: illness are looking at me and judging me for for 379 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 1: what I am and making judgments about my moral character 380 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: based on what has happened. Well, and fitz Harris has 381 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: that blog post Still Syphilis a Love Story which essentially 382 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: talks about this, and I believe it is miss Sanborn 383 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: who eventually takes the fake nose off at her husband's 384 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: request because he accepts her as she is. You know, 385 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: it's interest. I was listening to that to BBC program, 386 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: The Cultural History of Syphilis, which I'll link to on 387 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: the landing page for this podcast episode. But they go 388 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: into some of the cases of individuals, particularly in the 389 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: seventeenth century, who end up, if not finding pride in 390 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: their syphilitic appearance, they at least, you know, come to 391 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: own it. Uh. You see individuals like Sir William Davenant 392 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: uh sixteen of six through sixteen sixty eight as a poet, playwright, 393 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: and he was famously not shy about being painted or 394 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: depicted in artwork without a false nose. So you see 395 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: a very sunken saddle nose, you know, almost a vacant 396 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: um you know, part of his facial features. And he was, 397 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: you know, pretty upfront about it. Um. Another instance, you 398 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: have artist Gerard Delorice one through seventeen eleven, who is 399 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: actually a prominent painter uh and uh and he was 400 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: born with congenital syphilis. Um. And he he was. There's 401 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: actually a painting of him by Rembrandt, which I'll put 402 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: on the blog for everyone to see because it's it's 403 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: a it's a Rembrandt piece, so it's it's splendid to behold. 404 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: But here's an individual who you know, he's setting for 405 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: a portrait. He's he's he's open and uh and free 406 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: about who he you know, he's not trying to hide 407 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: it at this point. And you see a number of individuals, 408 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: say John Wilmot, the second Earl of Rochester, who was 409 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: portrayed by Johnny Depp in the movie Libertine. Um. You 410 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: see individuals like this who basically say, yeah, I have syphilis. 411 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: I have had a wildlife, and the wages of having 412 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: that wildlife are syphilis. So it's it's almost like a 413 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: badge of honor. Yeah, It's like when you hear I've 414 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 1: heard people say point at rock stars aging rock stars, 415 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: and you know, say, oh, they look rough, but they 416 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: partied hard to get there, you know, to say that, 417 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, what has happened to them is like a 418 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: badge of honor because it says they have enjoyed their 419 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: younger life and that is why, uh, their their older 420 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: form is so decrepit. And think that's what you're seeing 421 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: in some of these individuals. Now, granted, these are individuals 422 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: that we're living at the in the upper echelon of society, 423 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: so they had a little more room too, you know, 424 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 1: to grab onto that pride. They weren't dying of syphilis, uh, 425 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: you know in the slum. Uh. And likewise, some of 426 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: these individuals too also had taken to various um ideas 427 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: about how syphilis could be treated. So they thought that 428 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: perhaps their their syphilis was being treated and managed by 429 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: regular mercury treatments in one of those mercury steam baths, which, 430 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: as we mentioned in the previous episode, may uh, you know, 431 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: was was likely making their symptoms worse in some cases. 432 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: So they thought that they were above sort of some 433 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: of the social rules in place because of their position 434 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: and society and be that they might have been vanquishing it. 435 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: So they were uh, not quite as concerned about how 436 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: they looked. Perhaps, Yeah, and if you're taking if you're 437 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: looking at the body from a less religious standpoint, you're 438 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: looking at more from a hedonistic or even mechanical standpoint, 439 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 1: then you're saying, hey, I live in a world in 440 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: which syphilis exists, and if I behave a certain way, 441 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: syphilis is what happens to my body. You know. Um, 442 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: some of these cases too, you see individuals where they 443 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: they're they're almost happy when they finally catch syphilis because 444 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: it means, if nothing else, it means they don't have 445 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: to worry about catching syphilis anymore. You know, they're they're 446 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: they're no longer living in the shadow of syphilis, but 447 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: within the dark of syphilis. And you can see where 448 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: there might be a certain amount of empowerment there. Certainly, 449 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: if you have to latch onto something, you might as 450 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: well latch onto that, although again you'd have to be 451 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: in a really specific social position to do that, and 452 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: you'd have to be a male for certain. No. Yes, indeed, now, 453 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: if you had the money, the wherewithal, and you did 454 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: not want to wear a fake nose, or you weren't 455 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: ready to come out to the world that you had syphilis, 456 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: then you would try a kind of nasal reconstruction, which 457 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century was called the Indian method, and 458 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: this involved cutting a nose sized section of skin from 459 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: the forehead. So there's again another calling card or hallmark 460 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: that you have the disease, because your nose looks great, 461 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: but you've got a big patch of skin, but you 462 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: have a really big wig. That's true, that's true, you 463 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: have a nice wig. But they take that skin from 464 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: the forehead and they would attach it to the bridge 465 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: of the nose to maintain a steady blood supply. And 466 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: then that flap was twisted into place and sewn over 467 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: the damaged area, which kind of created a replacement nose. 468 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: But again it wasn't perfect and you know, really cold weather, 469 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: it would not turn the same color as the rest 470 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: of your nose. So there were certain telltale signs that 471 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: it may look like an intech nose, but it is 472 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: not your perhaps knows that you were born with. But 473 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: it turns out that there's a better and perhaps more 474 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: horrific way to take a stab at plastic surgery or 475 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: early plastic surgery. You know what it is tempting to 476 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,719 Speaker 1: say it's horrific, but it but in you know, another way, 477 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 1: it's kind of beautiful and it gets it how malleable 478 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: our flesh really is. Because again modern plastic surgery, the 479 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 1: plastic is referring to the plasticity of the flesh, that 480 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: you can craft flesh into a form. Yeah. And actually 481 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: this method did and does inform plastic surgeons about how 482 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: skin grows and how you can mold it and and 483 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,719 Speaker 1: sculpt it. So yeah, in this we see the sixteenth 484 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: century advent of the Italian method. Now to to picture this, um, 485 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: if you don't have an image of it in front 486 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,239 Speaker 1: of you, um, And and if you're not driving a 487 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: car doing anything where you need your hands place, place 488 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: your your palm of your hand, uh, kind of on 489 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: your forehead, okay, and then allow your nose to to 490 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: touch your arm. That is basically the position where the 491 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: surgeon would would lock your arm into place. There would 492 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: be like a head vice type of scenario going on, 493 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: so that you could not move your arm away. You 494 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 1: cannot move your the flesh of your arm away from 495 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: the flesh of your face. And then that's where you 496 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: perform the the the skin graft. You walk a pedicle 497 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: of flesh, you sort of cut it away from the forearm, 498 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: and you stitch it into place where the nose should 499 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: be in play of the nose that you've lost two 500 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: syphilis or duels or what have you, and then that's 501 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: held in place while the the grafted skin grows onto 502 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: the face. So for a brief period of time, you 503 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: have effectively sown your arm, or a surgeon has effectively 504 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: sown your arm to your face. And then once the 505 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: graft is taken, then you cut the arm away from 506 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: it and you've you've essentially walked as a piece of 507 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,479 Speaker 1: flesh off of your arm onto your face and then 508 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: use that to form a new nose, which is kind 509 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: of brilliant, and honestly, you ask a plastic surgeon about 510 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: this and they'll be like, this is a great way 511 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: to try to get the skin to graft onto other 512 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: skin and then be able to shape it um. The 513 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: only problem here is that for about two weeks, you're 514 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: walking around with your your hand stuff in your head 515 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: and you can't really move your nose right because that's 516 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: now stuck to you your arm. Yeah, I'm guessing you're 517 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: probably not doing a whole lot of walk around town 518 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: like that. But but yeah, there's going to be a 519 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: weird period there. But you know, the Italian method, it's 520 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: a remarkable what it can do. Like it may be 521 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: summoning images of like a really bad plastic surgery job 522 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: or something. But I've I've seen some images, particularly like 523 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: particularly late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, in which you 524 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: see multiple pedicles of flesh that are essentially walked up 525 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: the body to the face to repair individuals who say 526 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: lost their lower jaw uh to to gunshot wound. Uh. 527 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: And then you're able to walk all these pedicles up 528 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: to the face and it looks kind of ghastly at first, 529 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: but then you start putting them in their place, and 530 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: at the end of the of this series of procedures, 531 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: you have a much more uh normal looking visage uh 532 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: there in place of the damaged tissue. So in in 533 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: in this scenario, we see the impact of syphilis on 534 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: early rhino pass plastic in Europe. But we also see 535 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: other ways in which syphilis ends up change in the 536 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: way that that that medicine is practiced, uh through throughout 537 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: the the old world. For instance, immediately it challenged humorism 538 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: and the doctrine of contagion that was probablement the other day. Um. 539 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: We also see syphilis as a catalyst for modern doctor 540 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: patient confidentiality, because suddenly it becomes a kind of a 541 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: calling card for some doctors. Hey, let me treat you 542 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: for your syphilist because I'll keep it on the download. Now, 543 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: we just kind of take that for granted that we 544 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: go into a doctor, they're not going to laugh about 545 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: syphilis to everyone in the neighborhood. And then this is 546 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: another key fact that was brought up in the book 547 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: Cleaned by Virginia Smith that I've referenced before in podcasts, 548 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: and that is that previously you had you'd go into 549 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: your your local barber shop and you'd have the barber 550 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: tonsors in the front, barber surgeons in the back. You 551 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: can have your haircut, your face shaved, all of that 552 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: that take place in the front of the building and 553 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: go into the back, into the yard or what have you. 554 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: That's where you would receive minor surgeries. That's where you 555 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: would uh take a bath and saying later as the 556 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: as syphilis begins to spread, that's where you start getting 557 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: treated for civilis that's where you might take your mercury bath. 558 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: And so the prevalence of the disease and fear regarding 559 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: the disease, this really leads to regulation. This really this 560 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: leads to of course, you know, paranoia. And so you 561 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: see the two separates. So you see the separation of 562 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: the barber tonsor and the barber surgeon. That's right, because 563 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: that red and white striped barber pole used to indicate 564 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: that there are surgeries down there. Right in case anybody's 565 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: ever wondered why, Um, that poll is outside of a 566 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: hair cuttery, all right. So that's this impact on on 567 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: on medicine and medical surgeries um, as well as cottage 568 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: industries like wig makers, right, and people who are are 569 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: selling you know, snake oils. But there are certain things 570 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: that you cannot cover up here when it comes to syphilis. 571 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: And one of the things would be your teeth. Now 572 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: you can pull all your teeth, you could put dentures in, 573 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: but if you didn't want to do that you're kind 574 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: of saddled with the ravages of your teeth bicyphilis. Yeah, 575 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: And one of the more one of the more particular 576 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: things we see here with the teeth is something that 577 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: pops up in cases of congenital syphilis, and that's something 578 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,479 Speaker 1: known as Hutchinson teeth. These are, you know, as with 579 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: all things syphilis, the exact symptoms vary, but this is 580 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: often typified by sharpened looking teeth or peg shaped teeth 581 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: that kind of have sharpened points on the edges. Um. 582 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: You can look for for images this online, I think, 583 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: and actually I did a blog post um that I'll 584 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: link to on the landing page for this podcast episode 585 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: that includes, uh, the image that Julian and I are 586 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: both looking at now. But they do have a kind 587 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: of monstrous appearance either like sharpened teeth inside of a 588 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: human mouth, particularly canine teeth. Yes, And so we start 589 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: to look at this for a little bit, and uh, 590 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: naturally your mind would turn to vampire teeth, because that's 591 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: kind of what this looks like. It looks like a 592 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: sort of non speraw version of vampire teeth. Yeah, And 593 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: it's led us some commentators to argue that the the 594 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: evolution of the vampire myth in in Western civilization may 595 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: have connections to cases of congenital or hereditary syphilis. The 596 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: children are born like this, they have this kind they 597 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: could have in addition to these teeth, they may also 598 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: have elongated fingers, They may have elongated skull. There various 599 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 1: other deformities that might be interpreted as monstrous by by 600 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: somebody taking in the scenario UM and another connection between 601 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: vampires and syphilis arguably takes us to bron Stoker himself, 602 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: the author of the book Dracula. And another area where 603 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: vampires and syphilis seem to converge UH is in the 604 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: case of the eighteen novel Dracula by Bram Stoker. Now 605 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: bron Stoker's exact cause of death and he died in 606 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve A means you know somewhat something of the mystery, 607 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: but some biographers attribute his death to tertiary syphilis and 608 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: make the further argument that Dracula itself, as a literary 609 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: work is is kind of reflecting not only the paranoia 610 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: regarding syphilis that's present in the culture, but also Stoker's 611 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: own uh experience with the illness itself. Because you look 612 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: at vampires. You look attractively and you see uh, something 613 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: that is at once sexual and monstrous. You see this 614 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: this uh, this outsider that has come to in this 615 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: case to England and is spreading this uh, this illness 616 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: of vamporism. This uh, this this alien pathogen to to 617 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,919 Speaker 1: to to two women in the in the in the area. Yes, 618 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: they are puncturing the women. Right, So again you have 619 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: to use that metaphor which always comes up sex and vampires, right. Um. 620 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: The in fact, there is you something this link uh 621 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: to a class that's offered, the classes the vampire in 622 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: Literature and Cinema, taught by Tomaslavljovich, who is a professor 623 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: of Slavic and comparative literature, and he uses that vampire 624 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: lore to explore folklore explanations of disease epidemics, which makes sense, right, 625 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 1: especially if you're you're caught up in this. You'll say, 626 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: it's the sixteenth century, is the seventeenth century, and this 627 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: is this you know, pervasive disease, and you have all 628 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: of these sort of myths surrounding it. It's possible that 629 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: that people could sort of extrapolate like maybe there are vampires. 630 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: Maybe this is how it's being spread. Yeah, because again 631 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: four and a half centuries in which we could not 632 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: cure it. So you're throwing what you can at. You're 633 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: throwing you're throwing actual research, You're throwing snake oil, you're 634 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: throwing mercury, steam baths, you're throwing religion. And again, you know, 635 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: because again it just can't be It can't be overstated. 636 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: The the connection between between morality and and stuff lists 637 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: here and at least in the way that people try 638 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: to understand it, or at least ended up viewing it 639 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: in society. And so yeah, you're throw in a little 640 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: myth in there, you throw a little magical thinking and 641 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: and and there you go. You can easily see the 642 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: vampire emerge. Nothing concrete there, but some food for thought. Yeah, 643 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: which maybe why a vampire in the form of Count 644 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: spiro Keet shows up in a Navy video in the 645 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: seventies talking about STDs. Right, Yes, and you can watch this. 646 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: I link to the video on a blood post I 647 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: did for stuff to blow your mind. It's actually a 648 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: fabulous documentary. It's kind of the style of of Schoolhouse 649 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: Rocks and uh, and it has a Scooby Doo element 650 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: to it as well, yeah, it's it's very silly. Look, 651 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: even when they get into some of the rougher stuff, 652 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: such as congenital syphilis or or actually showing illustrations of genitals, 653 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: it's like the setup is very cartoon. It's Death him 654 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: self is having an award ceremony handing out the coveted 655 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: fourth Horseman Award for a disease that's that's done the 656 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: best work in causing misery and death around the world, 657 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: and who should win it but count sparrow Keet who 658 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: represents syphilis. Uh, the the embodiment of ganahea takes some 659 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: issue with it. Some of the other illnesses are like, 660 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: what's so great about sparrow keyt what's he doing? There's 661 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,720 Speaker 1: a cure for it, blah blah blah, and so Death 662 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: and spirow Key, mainly Death goes on to explain to 663 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: us why how selphilis works and why it is a problem, 664 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: and why enlisted navy men, why why sailors should be 665 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: on guard and should go seek treatment for any time 666 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: they have any kind of a flare out, which kind 667 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: of gets into this whole rich tradition of the military 668 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: trying to bring a level of awareness of STDs to 669 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: UH to everyone. In fact, if you go back to 670 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: War one in wor World two, UH, you will see 671 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: all sorts of pamphlets and posters warning military members to 672 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: be very careful to watch out for siff, watch out 673 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: for gnahea. And it even reminded me of our Quarantine 674 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: episode in which we talked about the U. S. Military 675 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,879 Speaker 1: quarantining prostitutes in an attempt to try to separate what 676 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: they thought is disease carrying prostitutes with STDs from military members. Yeah, 677 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: so you have you have these campaigns that are basically 678 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: in essence saying, hey, sailors, when you go into the 679 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 1: next port town, please stay away from the prostitutes because 680 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: you could catch syphilis and it's bad news. And you 681 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: have to bear in mind too that even after the 682 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: advent of penicillin, you'll have situations, particularly in wartime, where 683 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: there's there's not an unlimited amount of penicillan to throw 684 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: at at your your navy men's venereal diseases. You have, 685 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: you have that a lot of that penicillan is earmarked 686 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 1: for the battlefield for for use in helping with soldiers 687 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: who have been injured in combat. You don't want to 688 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: spend it all just on a bunch of horny sailors 689 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: who can't control themselves when they go into a farm 690 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: port of call. So they're throwing education at the problem 691 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: as well. But they're speaking to a male audience, and 692 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: and so the messaging tends to take on a very 693 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:14,879 Speaker 1: sexist feel. Yeah. In fact, one of the posters which 694 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm looking at right now is a really good example. 695 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: It's this, Um it's a photograph of a girl that looks, 696 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, kind of innocent and pure and you know, 697 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: very Norman Rockwell, Like this is the Norman Rockwell gal. 698 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: I'm looking at very Norman Rockwell. In fact, she has 699 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: this sort of beatific smile on as if you know, 700 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: she's doing godly work. And then there are you know, 701 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: some servicemen who are looking at her at a distance. 702 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: And across this poster it says she may look clean, 703 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: but and the butt isn't all red in all caps, 704 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: and it says pick ups good time girls. Prostitutes spread 705 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: syphilis and gonorrhea. You can't beat the axis if you 706 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: get v D. And what I think is so interesting 707 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: about this is that there are many other posters that 708 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: have more I don't know, what are you say, tawdry 709 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: looking women that there are basically saying they're prostitutes. But 710 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: then you have this other sort of like I said, 711 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: be to fix smiled, innocent looking girl. And the point is, 712 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: as you say, is that they're speaking to men, and um, 713 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: they're really underscoring this idea that STDs venarrow diseases all 714 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: begin with women and that they are the font of evil. Yeah. 715 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean there's this darkness in the woman. It's almost 716 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: like the like the feminine form as monster is the 717 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: message here? And and you see again you do see 718 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: some more fantastic, horrific visions of this. There's one where 719 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,399 Speaker 1: the woman is like moving a handheld mask away from 720 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: her face and behind it there's a death skull. Um. 721 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: I Salvador Dolly's illustration that he did for an anti 722 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:03,399 Speaker 1: sephilis poster in which you see the two buxom women. Yeah, 723 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 1: I guess it kind of melting kind of, but they 724 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: look like a death skull. You know. It's one of 725 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 1: those one of his classic stout images where you see 726 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: the death's head uh in the form of the women. 727 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: I'll be sure to throw that un stuff to your 728 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,359 Speaker 1: mind dot com as well. So everyone can see it. 729 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: And yeah, weren't you telling me about the sixteenth century 730 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: hypothesis of the woman as really the germanator of syphilis. Yeah, yeah, 731 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 1: there was this notion that the syphilis emerged because you 732 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,879 Speaker 1: had you had women, you had prostitutes who were having 733 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: sex with multiple men. Uh, and then those semens with 734 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: those different seeds would be inside her and they would 735 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 1: mingle together and corrupt into the form of syphilis. So 736 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: with and you know, they had no one there was 737 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: no proof to back up this ridiculous theory, but it 738 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: did place the blame firmly on on women and very 739 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: moralistically as well. These women are are sinning, and therefore 740 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,120 Speaker 1: you have sickness arising from them. They are the sore 741 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: of of the ailment itself. Yeah, and uh, not not 742 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: to get too crazy here, but it just kind of 743 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: brings me back this idea of witches. And we talked 744 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: about which is and we talked about, you know, the 745 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: power of women and sexuality. And again here we are 746 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: subscribing the sort of power this death to women in 747 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,960 Speaker 1: the form of syphilis. And uh, you know, I don't 748 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,759 Speaker 1: know that that's what all the poster artists intended, but 749 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: it certainly captured the spirit of the times. Yeah, and 750 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: then again they were talking to a predominantly male audience. 751 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: As we mentioned before, even in UH, you know, over 752 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: the centuries that syphilis was really ravaging Europe, you saw 753 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: the highest percentages of infection uh in the in the 754 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 1: in the soldiers are certainly a higher percentage than in 755 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 1: the rest of the population. So soldiers and prostitutes were 756 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: a key area of transference. Indeed. All right, so there 757 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,439 Speaker 1: you have it again. There's just there's not enough time 758 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,879 Speaker 1: and even in a series of podcasts to really get 759 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: into all the way it's syphilis informed UH Western culture 760 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 1: during its UH four and a half centuries of unchecked life. 761 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: But but hopefully we hit some of the high points. 762 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 1: We hit some of the ideas who were play here 763 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: about about us versus the other, about men and women, 764 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: about the morality, about the cosmetics of dealing with syphilis, 765 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: and if nothing else, that you serve as an interesting 766 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: starting point for your own exploration of the topic. And 767 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: also touching um the origin of it as well, and 768 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: knowing that we don't have the end all be all 769 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,760 Speaker 1: theory in place yet, but we do have an idea 770 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,160 Speaker 1: of where it came from all right, Um, you guys 771 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: can find us at a multitude of places. Yeah, that's right. 772 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: Go to step to Blow your Mind dot com. That 773 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: is the mothership. You will find all the blog posts, 774 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: the podcast, the videos, et cetera, including a number of 775 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,839 Speaker 1: different items related to this syphilis series that we've put out. 776 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: And you can also find us at Mind Stuff Show 777 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: on YouTube. And if you've got some ideas percolating there 778 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,359 Speaker 1: about the top think we covered today or any sort 779 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:02,879 Speaker 1: of stories you want to share with us, you can 780 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: do so below the mind at Discovery dot com for 781 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,320 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Does it 782 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 1: How staff works dot com