WEBVTT - Citadel's Angel Ubide Talks EU Joint Debt

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. One of the key

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<v Speaker 1>recommendations of Mario Dragi's report into restoring Europe's competitiveness was

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<v Speaker 1>issuing more common EU debt. Several key European countries are

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<v Speaker 1>against that idea and it's become part of the debate

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<v Speaker 1>over the next seven year EU budget, which is currently

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<v Speaker 1>being negotiated. So how important is common debt to Europe's future.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's get an investor perspective now from Angel Ubide, who

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<v Speaker 1>is head of economic research for Global Fixed Income and

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<v Speaker 1>Macro at Citadel and how you've worked in financial services

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<v Speaker 1>for some two decades. You're also a member of the

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<v Speaker 1>Spanish government's Advisory Council on Economic Affairs. I wonder when

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<v Speaker 1>you think about this in the context of the Dragy report,

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<v Speaker 1>the conversation that has been ongoing among you member states

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<v Speaker 1>about common debt for many years. Now, why is now

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<v Speaker 1>the time that more joint debt needs to be agreed?

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<v Speaker 2>So I think there are three reasons why now is

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<v Speaker 2>the time right. The first one is the need, and

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<v Speaker 2>the need is really related to the need to achieve

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<v Speaker 2>a strategical autonomy. It's very difficult to have a strategical autonomy.

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<v Speaker 2>If you don't have the military, the financial and the

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<v Speaker 2>economic power, and you cannot have the financial and economic

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<v Speaker 2>power if you don't have a save facet, then nominated

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<v Speaker 2>in your own currency. And right now Europe is built

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<v Speaker 2>on a save acet, the nominated on US dollars essentially,

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<v Speaker 2>and that cannot be a robust and stable base. The

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<v Speaker 2>second is the opportunity because there is a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>demand for European debt. When I go around the world,

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<v Speaker 2>I can tell you have lots of conversations with other

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<v Speaker 2>investors and there is always the issue about we both

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<v Speaker 2>increase our holdings of Euros in our reserves in our

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<v Speaker 2>portfolios if there were eurobons. And then the third, as

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<v Speaker 2>we discuss, is that there is also the institutional support.

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<v Speaker 2>The ACP has become much more proactive in the emotion

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<v Speaker 2>and of the idea of the international role of the Euro.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's very difficult to have an international currency if

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<v Speaker 2>you don't offer investors what they want and what they

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<v Speaker 2>want it's a safe asset that is deep, that is deep,

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<v Speaker 2>that is liquid, and that is in large size. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think those three elements are the reason why now

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<v Speaker 2>is the time?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you feel the pressure from the Trump administration on

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<v Speaker 1>the EU over defense, over trade could help to perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>encourage those reluctant countries to get on board with the idea,

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<v Speaker 1>given the contacts that you've outlined.

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<v Speaker 2>At least in directly right. If this is forcing a

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<v Speaker 2>conversation really about the strategic autonomy about how to make

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<v Speaker 2>Europe more independent and more robust, then one of the

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<v Speaker 2>elements has to be this. Whether it's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>the deciding element or not, I don't know, but it

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<v Speaker 2>is forcing a conversation about this.

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<v Speaker 1>Definitely. If you're putting a room in front of reluctant

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<v Speaker 1>to European leaders to talk about this, what is the

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<v Speaker 1>key point you'd want to be driving home to them.

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<v Speaker 1>For those who are still not on board the idea.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I guess it can be done in a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of ways. One part of those who are against would say,

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<v Speaker 2>but we have German boons, why do we need eurobones?

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<v Speaker 2>And the answer is, while German boons are small, and

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<v Speaker 2>when you push it, really German boods are the same

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<v Speaker 2>facet of Germany are not just the safe acet of Europe.

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<v Speaker 2>We need a safe ucet that belongs to the whole

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<v Speaker 2>of Europe. And then I think the second is that

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<v Speaker 2>if you want to really be independent, you need to

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<v Speaker 2>have your own asset. And as I said, you cannot

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<v Speaker 2>build the foundations of your financial sector with an asset

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<v Speaker 2>that is nominated in a foreign currency where you are

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<v Speaker 2>going to have foreign currency risk, where you are going

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<v Speaker 2>to depend ultimately on a foreign payment system, clearance system,

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<v Speaker 2>and financial system. At the end of the day, you

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<v Speaker 2>need those two things. Without that, you are never going

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<v Speaker 2>to really achieve a strategic autonomy.

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<v Speaker 1>So would the creation of these your bonds as you

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<v Speaker 1>describe them, reduced demand though for some of the sovereign

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<v Speaker 1>debt as well, because that's another argument that can be

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<v Speaker 1>made at a national level is that you know, your

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<v Speaker 1>own national death is going to get more expensive because

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<v Speaker 1>some of those investors are going to be looking at

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<v Speaker 1>the new comedy U death.

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<v Speaker 2>So during the transition period that could be wiggles, right,

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<v Speaker 2>it always happens, But in the long run, our view

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<v Speaker 2>is that it is going to increase the total demand

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<v Speaker 2>for European assets. So it's not necessarily going to cannibalize

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<v Speaker 2>national bonds, but it's going to add to it. Let

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<v Speaker 2>me give you a specific example right right now, the

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<v Speaker 2>eurobones that are existing in the EU, bones and bills

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<v Speaker 2>are considered supranationals. They are not considered sovereign bonds. If

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<v Speaker 2>and when these EU bonds and bills would become sovereign bonds,

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<v Speaker 2>as we support, because of increased size and increase clarity

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<v Speaker 2>about future issuance and all that, it would be another

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<v Speaker 2>additional asset that foreign investors could buy. So it would

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<v Speaker 2>THENT be instead of it would be in addition to

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<v Speaker 2>and so in a study state, we would think because

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<v Speaker 2>of that, and because it would also make the European

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<v Speaker 2>economy more stable, and therefore it would reduce the risk

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<v Speaker 2>associated with all of the bonds within that the average

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<v Speaker 2>interest rate of funding the debt in Europe would come down.

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<v Speaker 1>How should the debt be paid for? There's already an

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<v Speaker 1>issue with the current joint debt that was issued during

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<v Speaker 1>the COVID pandemic by the EU and further recovery fund.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, there's meant to be new EU taxes own

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<v Speaker 1>resources as they're known, and the EU budget to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to pay for them. That money hasn't materialized and

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<v Speaker 1>it's now a big blocking point in the current EU

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<v Speaker 1>budget negotiations. Where should the resources come from to pay this.

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<v Speaker 2>So we solve quote unquote that problem by avoiding the

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<v Speaker 2>need for new resources and proposing that this debt would

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<v Speaker 2>be apported by a transfer of existing resources at the

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<v Speaker 2>national level. Right the same way that we don't argue

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<v Speaker 2>that we should be issuing these debt for new spending programs,

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<v Speaker 2>because those should be two different decisions. We are not

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<v Speaker 2>arguing that new taxes should be created, because again those

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<v Speaker 2>should be two different decisions. So the way we articulate

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<v Speaker 2>this is each country would agree and commit to transfer

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<v Speaker 2>a share of their own tax revenues to these to

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<v Speaker 2>the service of these eurobonds, and those would be the resources.

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<v Speaker 2>So we are not proposing to increase the debt and

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<v Speaker 2>therefore we don't need to increase the resources.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you give me sort of two contrasting scenarios of

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<v Speaker 1>if the EU did this and if they didn't, what's

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<v Speaker 1>the sort of benefit for the European economy if this

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<v Speaker 1>instrument is created and what would happen if it's not

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<v Speaker 1>done and we continue in our current path.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think the benefit is we assume we expect

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<v Speaker 2>and I think we are in a strong basis on

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<v Speaker 2>this that the cost of funding for the European economy

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<v Speaker 2>would come down, and that at the margin increases potential growth.

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<v Speaker 2>It also creates more stability. It almost eliminates the possibility

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<v Speaker 2>of a run on any of the countries. Right, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>nothing can be ruled out any country, not just in

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<v Speaker 2>the Eurozone. Any country in the world can one day

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<v Speaker 2>decide to misbehave, and that consideration should always be there.

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<v Speaker 2>But when we put this thing together, it provides the

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<v Speaker 2>European economy with an instrument that is just going to

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<v Speaker 2>increase the stability. Now, if we don't have it, life

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<v Speaker 2>continues as it is today. But then it is going

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<v Speaker 2>to make the European economy again hostage to a foreign

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<v Speaker 2>denominated asset and inner world in which all the main

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<v Speaker 2>regions are moving forward towards some sort of and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to use the word strategical autonomy right investing in

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<v Speaker 2>all the critical sectors, in all the critical materials, not

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<v Speaker 2>just defense, but energy and artificial intelligence and everything else.

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<v Speaker 2>The U area is going to be the one with

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<v Speaker 2>the weakest foundation if it doesn't have eurobonds.

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<v Speaker 1>Traditionally it's the more centrist governments that have agreed to

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<v Speaker 1>big advances towards more integration at European level, which, of

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<v Speaker 1>course this would be another step towards. Would you be

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<v Speaker 1>concerned that if there are populist governments elected, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there are big elections coming up, for example in France

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<v Speaker 1>next year, that they will take this idea completely off

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<v Speaker 1>the table.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I would hope they don't. I think we still

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<v Speaker 2>have to do a fair amount of explaining. We have

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<v Speaker 2>to convence not just those parties, but everybody that this

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<v Speaker 2>isn't the benefit of every single European citizen right is

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<v Speaker 2>living money on the table, or as the Spanish Vice

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<v Speaker 2>President and Minister of Finance Carlos square Posa at an

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<v Speaker 2>event recently at the Peterston Institute in Washington, is saving

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<v Speaker 2>tax payers money? And I think we should all agree

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<v Speaker 2>that saving taxpayers money should be a priority for all

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<v Speaker 2>European leaders, and that would be the way to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>Can investors have confidence that this money would be spent

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<v Speaker 1>effectively if this new debt is raised? These Court of

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<v Speaker 1>Auditors has already asked a lot of questions about where

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<v Speaker 1>billions of the COVID recovery money which came from the

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<v Speaker 1>EU was spent by member states.

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<v Speaker 2>So we avoid this problem here by not associating these

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<v Speaker 2>europe Bones to any particular spending program. That's why we

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<v Speaker 2>do it as well, right, So all we are doing

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<v Speaker 2>here is optimizing debt management, is reducing the cost of debt.

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<v Speaker 2>We are not donning a euro to the current stock

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<v Speaker 2>of debt. Now. If in the future European leaders decide

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<v Speaker 2>to create a program of European public goods which means

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<v Speaker 2>increasing spending, and they want to fund it with eurobonds,

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<v Speaker 2>it's absolutely fine with us. But that is not what

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<v Speaker 2>we are proposing. So our proposal does not run into

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<v Speaker 2>the risk that the money will be misuspent because we

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<v Speaker 2>are not proposing to increase spending.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to ask you about some of the other

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<v Speaker 1>big issues identified in the drag E reports as potential

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<v Speaker 1>blocks on growth and increasing Europe's competitiveness. One of them

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<v Speaker 1>is the massive stock of money that is in savings

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<v Speaker 1>accounts across Europe. We don't have the same investment culture

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<v Speaker 1>in Europe that there is in the United States. How

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<v Speaker 1>easily can that be changed? And is this just fiscal

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<v Speaker 1>levers that need to be used by government's fiscal incentives

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<v Speaker 1>to try and get that money moving out of savings

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<v Speaker 1>accounts and into more productive investments.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's an issue, right. There is this line that

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<v Speaker 2>says that if you have a sleepy deposits, you are

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<v Speaker 2>going to have a sleepy economy. And yes, I think

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<v Speaker 2>we need to change the attitude towards risk towards investment

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<v Speaker 2>across European citizens. There are different ways to do it.

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<v Speaker 2>One option I have proposed. I've been living in the

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<v Speaker 2>US for many years, and I think one of the

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<v Speaker 2>reasons why American citizens have a more benign attitude towards

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<v Speaker 2>risk is that they have to invest in their own,

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<v Speaker 2>for one accounts, the private pillar of their pension right.

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<v Speaker 2>And because you have to do that, you get used

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<v Speaker 2>to having a part of your savings inequities, and then

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<v Speaker 2>you are more used to seeing volatility. But at the

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<v Speaker 2>same time you are also channeling a lot of these

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<v Speaker 2>savings into productive investments. So one way to change this

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<v Speaker 2>attitude in Europe would be to also promote the adoption

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<v Speaker 2>of a private pillar in pension funds. That would not

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<v Speaker 2>only make people more open probably towards towards private, private,

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<v Speaker 2>and risky investments, but it would also channel that money

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<v Speaker 2>that is now basically sleeping in bank accounts that are

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<v Speaker 2>then in as many government bonds, it would channel it

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<v Speaker 2>towards private investments.

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<v Speaker 1>To do that, do we need to be a bit

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<v Speaker 1>more perhaps open? Some might argue realistic about the future

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<v Speaker 1>of state funded pensions in Europe as well. The demographics

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<v Speaker 1>aren't good in many countries. I think the conversation anecdotally

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<v Speaker 1>that many people will have is there'll be no pension

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<v Speaker 1>for me when I retire from the state. Do we

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<v Speaker 1>need to say that more seriously? Do we need to

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<v Speaker 1>hear that more from leaders and from you know, big

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<v Speaker 1>investment houses like yours.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think when you look at the way the

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<v Speaker 2>European Commission does the long term projections for fiscal sustainability,

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<v Speaker 2>there is the fiscal projections and then there is what

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<v Speaker 2>they call a demographic component, right, and they claim that,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, the demographic component has to be taken into

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<v Speaker 2>account as well with either spending cads or tax increases. Today,

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<v Speaker 2>one way we could deal with this is to say

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<v Speaker 2>that that demographic component could be with a private pension pillar. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>there is a transition issue. There is always a transition

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<v Speaker 2>issue when these things happen, so there is a cost

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<v Speaker 2>to it. It's a one off, but I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>a good investment into the future because at the margin

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<v Speaker 2>this would also increase potential growth for the European economy

0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.600
<v Speaker 2>because there would be more funds that are channel towards

0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.600
<v Speaker 2>more productive activities in the private sector.

0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:28.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean, our pensions a time bomb for the European economy.

0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, there are a time bob everywhere, right when you

0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.320
<v Speaker 2>look at the demographic profile. Even in the United States,

0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:39.199
<v Speaker 2>birth rates now are below the replacement rate, right, So

0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.200
<v Speaker 2>that's happening everywhere everywhere. There is going to have to

0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.800
<v Speaker 2>be some adjustments, and I think one way to make

0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.079
<v Speaker 2>these adjustments in a productive manner is to think at

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:49.280
<v Speaker 2>the private pillar.

0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Just a question too about the finance industry across Europe

0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.959
<v Speaker 1>as well. We don't have the big cross board or

0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:00.920
<v Speaker 1>banks that there are ambitions to have, certainly as in Brussels,

0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.079
<v Speaker 1>and every time it seems that we've talked about a

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.120
<v Speaker 1>big bank merger, we've had interventions from governments at a

0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:10.000
<v Speaker 1>national level to try and either dissuade or prevent in

0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:14.679
<v Speaker 1>some cases. I mean, how do you reconcile these positions.

0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:16.960
<v Speaker 1>You can make the arguments that big banks are important,

0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.560
<v Speaker 1>but it really feels like that voters and national governments

0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:20.400
<v Speaker 1>don't want to listen.

0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:25.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm going to quote my fellow Espanier Luista Windos,

0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.320
<v Speaker 2>who gave an interview over the last couple of days,

0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.960
<v Speaker 2>basically saying that what is happening in the merger between

0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.280
<v Speaker 2>unique credit and commerce is an example of this. Right.

0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.840
<v Speaker 2>If we don't create European banks, is going to be

0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:42.800
<v Speaker 2>almost impossible to have a European capital market. And it's

0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.560
<v Speaker 2>not just a question of size, and size is very important,

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.760
<v Speaker 2>but it's also a question of channeling the savings across

0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:54.000
<v Speaker 2>the different countries, and investment is a relationship business. You

0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:55.720
<v Speaker 2>need to know the people. You need to have the

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.360
<v Speaker 2>trust of the savers and the trust of the investors.

0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.760
<v Speaker 2>I always say, if you have savers in Andalusia in

0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Spain and you want to convincement that there is a

0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 2>very good investment opportunity in the north of Germany, you

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.240
<v Speaker 2>need to know both. And you are not going to

0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.240
<v Speaker 2>be able to do that if you are just a

0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.480
<v Speaker 2>domestic bank. You are going to need to have European

0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 2>banks with presence everywhere, the same way that the US

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:23.880
<v Speaker 2>has interstate banking that is across the whole continent of Europe,

0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.080
<v Speaker 2>and that they can move the savings around to the

0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:27.480
<v Speaker 2>most productive investments.

0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:32.240
<v Speaker 1>Have has the EU at an EU wide level done

0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.120
<v Speaker 1>enough to encourage that is? Does more need to be

0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:38.480
<v Speaker 1>done to facilitate those the creation of those sorts of banks.

0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, there is one argument, right that there are barriers

0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:47.120
<v Speaker 2>to liquidity across countries, and this is not a question

0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.720
<v Speaker 2>of regulation. It may be more a question of supervision.

0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>It may be also a question of domestic political needs

0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 2>that each country, I think that it needs to have

0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:02.440
<v Speaker 2>its own national champions be the same story as the Europeans. Right,

0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.640
<v Speaker 2>and ricolletta former Italian Prime minister, always says that there

0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.600
<v Speaker 2>are countries that are small and countries that don't know

0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.320
<v Speaker 2>they are small in Europe, and I think we need

0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:14.760
<v Speaker 2>to overcome that. We need to think that the way

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.400
<v Speaker 2>to face the current geopolitical competition with the US and

0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.600
<v Speaker 2>which China is with more Europe and more Europe requires

0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.000
<v Speaker 2>creating European banks and European champions.

0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.480
<v Speaker 1>And just to conclude, what's your biggest concern for the

0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.440
<v Speaker 1>future of the European economy right now?

0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.040
<v Speaker 2>I think my biggest concern is that European leaders don't

0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>realize that both China and the US have hit the

0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:47.680
<v Speaker 2>ground running in the competition for military, for security, for energy,

0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.520
<v Speaker 2>for resources autonomy. There is a tremendous amount of investment

0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.240
<v Speaker 2>that is being put to play, and I worry that

0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.640
<v Speaker 2>in Europe we are going to continue to wonder more

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:04.680
<v Speaker 2>about the rules and about the intra European differences than

0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.199
<v Speaker 2>about what it needs to be done in order to

0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.679
<v Speaker 2>win this race. I always have this feeling that in

0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:14.200
<v Speaker 2>Europe we worry much more about the internal enemy than

0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 2>about the external one. Right, we always worry about whether

0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Italy is going to do this or France is going

0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 2>to do that, rather than wondering how do we compete

0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:27.080
<v Speaker 2>in the global scene? And is that that process? That

0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.280
<v Speaker 2>delay that worries me because by the time euro wakes

0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:31.360
<v Speaker 2>up it might be too late.

0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.399
<v Speaker 1>How far behind is Europe and that race.

0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.439
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's difficult, it's difficult to measure. But there is

0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.600
<v Speaker 2>one number which is in the Drug report, right, five

0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:47.399
<v Speaker 2>trillion euros of investment. And the Drug report is what

0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.240
<v Speaker 2>two years old? So maybe we are two years late.

0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:53.480
<v Speaker 1>And I suppose I've asked you about your worries, I'm

0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.200
<v Speaker 1>obliged to ask you as well, what are you most

0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.320
<v Speaker 1>optimistic about where do you draw hope from the current conversation.

0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.680
<v Speaker 2>I think Europe. Europe has a lot of upsights. One

0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:08.119
<v Speaker 2>thing that I think people underestimate is that when you

0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.320
<v Speaker 2>measure it properly, and I know there has been a

0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.120
<v Speaker 2>lot of talk here about whether European GDP is lacking

0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.600
<v Speaker 2>in the US by a large amount, but a lot

0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.800
<v Speaker 2>of that is the change rate evolution. Right, when you

0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:23.240
<v Speaker 2>measure it properly, over the last twenty five years, GDP

0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:27.040
<v Speaker 2>per capita in Europe has only been around one or

0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:31.920
<v Speaker 2>two tents less than in the US on average. Right,

0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:35.320
<v Speaker 2>that's not much. So that's the good news, And that's

0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.200
<v Speaker 2>the good news because that has happened despite the fact

0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:42.320
<v Speaker 2>that we have a big and deep euro crisis that

0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:46.119
<v Speaker 2>was a massive headwind for Europe. So despite all that,

0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Europe has a lost much distance with respect to the US.

0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.760
<v Speaker 2>What that means is that if we can avoid a

0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.320
<v Speaker 2>crisis over the next ten years, and if we do

0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:57.520
<v Speaker 2>the investments we need to do, I think the future

0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:59.760
<v Speaker 2>is bright. It's just a question of wanting to do it,

0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:01.919
<v Speaker 2>living in it, a gert into it,