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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Josh and Chuck here to remind you that

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Speaker 1: our last three shows of the year. Boy, this is

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Speaker 1: a good show this year are taking place very soon

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Speaker 1: and tickets are still available.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so get in the saddle and come out and

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Speaker 2: see us partners in Orlando, Atlanta, and Nashville.

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Speaker 1: Just go to stuff youshould know dot com and click

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Speaker 1: on the tour link and you can get all your

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Speaker 1: tickets right there.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff you should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast again, right Chuck.

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Speaker 1: That's right, everybody. This was a very strange case, very

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Speaker 1: rare in which we actually recorded an entire episode again

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Speaker 1: that we had already recorded. It was my fault for

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Speaker 1: picking it, but to be fair, nobody else noticed either.

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Speaker 2: Nope, not at all.

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Speaker 1: But we decided to release this anyway because we listened

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Speaker 1: to the episodes and we thought it was kind of

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Speaker 1: fun and it might be kind of like a live

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Speaker 1: in Laura is a bit of a stuff you should

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Speaker 1: know easter egg right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And we really wish we could say it

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Speaker 2: was unique rather than just rare. But this is the

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Speaker 2: second time we've done this. See our Black Holes episodes

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Speaker 2: that's right. So here we go again, everybody with the

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Speaker 2: Birth Order, Episode round two. We hope you like it.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 2: there's Charles w Chuck Bryant and Jerry He's here. And

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Speaker 2: you put the three of us together, you got pretty

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Speaker 2: good zip ship going zipship?

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Speaker 1: Is that a word?

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Speaker 2: Oh, he didn't read that one thing I sent you.

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Speaker 1: I did, but I didn't pick out that word.

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Speaker 2: Yes, sibship it is the total siblings in a family.

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Speaker 1: I love that, isn't that neat? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And you can have high sib ships That means your

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Speaker 2: parents got it on a bunch of times without any protection.

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Speaker 2: The second is the low sib ship, which means your

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Speaker 2: parents were maybe be a little cold to one another.

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Speaker 2: And then the third one the midsig sib ship, which

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Speaker 2: I just made up, but I like.

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Speaker 1: Threes or low means they they got it on a lot,

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Speaker 1: but you know, used protection.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Or they're highly intelligent don't want to ruin the

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Speaker 2: planet with extra people. It's another possible interpretation.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you won't hear about that one at all.

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Speaker 2: No, definitely not. It's not me. I'm talking about the

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Speaker 2: people who are into that kind of thinking other people.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember there's a society for that, and I

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Speaker 2: cannot oh the something first, it's like society for human extinction.

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Speaker 2: They're like, we don't want to kill anybody alive, but

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Speaker 2: we just want to stop reproducing because we're ruining the planet.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember the name of them.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it's a named as an acronym that

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Speaker 1: just spells.

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Speaker 2: Ugh it spells die die die. Oh goodness, Well, Chuck,

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Speaker 2: I'm excited about this one. This is a good pick

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Speaker 2: from you, and it was a great assist from our

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Speaker 2: friend Dave Ruse. And we're talking about birth order, and

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Speaker 2: it's one of those things that like everybody knows birth order.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was even on the Brady bunch, like

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Speaker 2: jan was clearly the middle child, yeah, the middle daughter

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Speaker 2: at least, and really kind of bore that chip on

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Speaker 2: her shoulder. Little Bobby Brady, he was the youngest, and

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Speaker 2: he was often neglected as a result. He had to

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Speaker 2: kind of make his own way and find out that

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Speaker 2: he was really into pork shops and apple shawsh and

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Speaker 2: so on and so forth right. So everybody knows about

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Speaker 2: birth order. But it turns out I didn't realize this.

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Speaker 2: It's had a long history of being presented scientifically and

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Speaker 2: then refuted scientifically, and then we'll come back again, and

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Speaker 2: then it's gone again, and then it's going to come

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Speaker 2: back at you one more time. Kind of like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're going to go over those ups and downs.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll toss in our own opinions here and

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Speaker 1: there that have no basis in sciences. Sure, because I

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Speaker 1: have a as everyone knows, I'm the youngest I know.

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Speaker 1: I have an older brother that's three years older. Yep, Scott.

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Speaker 1: We've talked about a lot, so great, he's the best.

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Speaker 1: And I have a sister that is six years older. Huh.

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Speaker 1: She is the eldest. My sister Michelle, she's also great, yep.

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Speaker 1: And so it's like, you know, three years apart, three

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Speaker 1: years apart, nothing. Because I think some of this stuff

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Speaker 1: can be sort of taken with a grain of salt,

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Speaker 1: Like if you have, you know, the surprise baby that's

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Speaker 1: you know, fourteen years younger than anyone else in your family,

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Speaker 1: things might you know, be different. And then some people

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Speaker 1: say it makes no difference at all about your eventual personality.

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Speaker 1: But I guess to recap we should just go up

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Speaker 1: over how it typically breaks down, which is, if you're

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Speaker 1: the first born, then people will say, Oh, you're probably

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Speaker 1: gonna be bossier. You're probably gonna be an overachiever, maybe

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Speaker 1: a perfectionist, maybe a little neurotic. If you're the middle

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Speaker 1: child or the second born, you're probably gonna be a

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Speaker 1: peacemaker and a people pleaser. And then if you're the

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Speaker 1: baby of the family, then you're just a little spoiled brat,

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Speaker 1: but you're probably gonna be adventurous because you were left

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Speaker 1: to your own devices and you answer to nobody, so

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Speaker 1: you just go off and join the Peace Corps or something.

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Speaker 2: Sure, then there's also only children, which are kind of

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Speaker 2: their own thing.

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Speaker 1: But they, yeah, we should do a whole thing on onlies.

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Speaker 2: I think sure, they very much resemble of the other ones.

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Speaker 2: They much more resemble the firstborn child. Yeah, but a

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Speaker 2: weirder version of a firstborn. So the thing is is, like,

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Speaker 2: all of this sounds totally true and obvious, but it

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Speaker 2: just is not fully born out in the research. It's

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Speaker 2: kind of Dave compares it to a horoscope where you

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Speaker 2: can kind of see yourself or your siblings, and you know,

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Speaker 2: any one of these things. It just kind of makes sense.

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Speaker 2: And we have this selection bias and confirmation bias where

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Speaker 2: we just pick out the stuff that agrees with us,

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Speaker 2: and we ignore the points about say a middle child

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Speaker 2: or a a firstborn child that don't quite fit. We

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Speaker 2: just kind of discard that stuff. And because all of

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Speaker 2: us have some form of family, typically we all have

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Speaker 2: like anecdotal experience with that. And even if you don't

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Speaker 2: have a family, you're probably a friend of somebody who

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Speaker 2: has a family, so you've observed it yourself. So that

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Speaker 2: means that it's just supported that much more through your

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Speaker 2: own experience, which means it's been really hard to shake.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And that horoscope thing, not to say Dave

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Speaker 1: is not a free thinker, but a lot of people

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Speaker 1: compare it to horoscopes. As it turns out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and another thing, you can call it his pop

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Speaker 2: psychology for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So we should go back to the beginning, I guess,

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Speaker 1: which is to say the nineteenth century. As far as

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Speaker 1: the science on birth order goes to eighteen seventy four

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Speaker 1: with someone named that we've talked about a few times

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Speaker 1: on the show Francis Galton. I know that we talked

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Speaker 1: about Galton on episodes where he talked about eugenics, but

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Speaker 1: I'm sure other things have come up as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a polymath, but he was well known

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Speaker 2: for eugenics, genetics. He came up with fingerprinting catalogs like

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Speaker 2: he did all sorts.

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Speaker 1: Of stuff, that's right. So he was the half cousin

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Speaker 1: of Charles Darwin, and he had a book called English

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Speaker 1: Men of Science. Kind of sounds like Real Men of Genius.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say it was adapted into a

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Speaker 2: series of bud like commercials later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it seems like. Colon of course their

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Speaker 1: Nature and Nurture in which he he basically was kind

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Speaker 1: of keen to investigate the origin of genius. So what

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Speaker 1: better place to go than to study the gentlemen of

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Speaker 1: the Royal Society, Royal Society of London at the oldest

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Speaker 1: scientific academy in the world. And he got ninety nine guys.

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Speaker 1: It's very strange that he didn't get one hundred, but

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Speaker 1: he didn't get one hundred, and he did a lot

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Speaker 1: of research and got a lot of data on these gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: including birth order stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but also mother's hair color. He measured their heads.

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Speaker 2: He really went to town on these ninety nine englishmen

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Speaker 2: of science. And what he found out when he kind

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Speaker 2: of crunched all the data was that sixty one of

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Speaker 2: the ninety nine members that he profiled of the Royal

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Speaker 2: Society were among the oldest in their family. They were

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Speaker 2: either only children, only sons I should say they were

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Speaker 2: only or they were eldest sons, or if they were

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Speaker 2: middle born, they were toward the top of the middle born,

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Speaker 2: the earlier side of the middle born cohort. That's right,

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Speaker 2: And if there was no effect on birth order and genius,

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Speaker 2: then it should have been basically forty five and a

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Speaker 2: half forty five and a half, right, and spare a

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Speaker 2: thought for those poor half people.

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Speaker 1: That's right. What about the other ten percent? Though?

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Speaker 2: I think that's uh, that's jerry Okay, So wait wait, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're right, you're right. So no, no, yeah, forty did

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Speaker 2: I say forty nine and a half or forty five.

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Speaker 1: And a half? Well what do you think?

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Speaker 2: Let me rephrase that and say forty nine and a half.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I got you, because you came up with

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Speaker 1: ninety one I did, and yeah, so I got it

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Speaker 1: wrong too. I said, what about the ten people? It

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Speaker 1: was really nine people?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, plus you said ten percent. So this whole thing

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Speaker 2: was screwed up, right, just royally all right.

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Speaker 1: So he concluded based on this, and this is a

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Speaker 1: quote that I would I don't know if you take requests,

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Speaker 1: but I would love for you to read this in

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Speaker 1: the voice of Smigel.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's see. Do you remember I think I do so.

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Speaker 1: I like to think Snegel lives in you in some

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Speaker 1: way a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we said that, oh man, elder sons have

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Speaker 2: on the whole decided advantages of nurture over the younger ones.

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Speaker 2: They're treated more as companions by their parents and have

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Speaker 2: earlier responsibility, both of which would develop independence of character

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Speaker 2: and in less well to new families. The oldest child

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Speaker 2: has the advantage of better nourishment in his infancy compared

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Speaker 2: to the later board siblings.

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Speaker 1: Pretty close. I feel like that was Smiegel's brother, Spiegel

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Speaker 1: Spiegel not bad though.

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Speaker 2: So how do you ever remember what Snigel sounds like?

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Speaker 1: I listened to that every night. Okay, this might go

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Speaker 1: to bed music.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense.

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Speaker 1: So if you were too uh, disadvantaged in being thrown

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Speaker 1: off by Josh's hilarious reading. Just a quick recap basically is,

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Speaker 1: if you're the oldest, then you have an advantage because

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Speaker 1: you're like your parents' buddy. You got a lot more responsibility,

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Speaker 1: so you're gonna be more independent.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then if you're a family that's maybe doesn't have

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Speaker 1: as much money, then if you're the oldest and you're

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Speaker 1: gonna you're gonna get the chicken on the table and

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Speaker 1: not be fighting for that chicken like your little brothers

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Speaker 1: and sisters will.

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Speaker 2: Be, especially in infancy because you were the only one,

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Speaker 2: so you got all the baby food.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this doesn't sound I mean, I know a lot

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Speaker 1: of this poo poos the science, but this doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: wildly unreasonable to me as a you know.

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Speaker 2: No, it's echoed still today in our ideas of birth

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Speaker 2: order and explaining it. Yeah. So that was Francis Galton.

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Speaker 2: We'll leave him and I think probably until I guess

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Speaker 2: about the Actually, not that far after I think he

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Speaker 2: was speaking. He wrote in what the last quarter of

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Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, right, So, I mean just less than

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Speaker 2: fifty years later, a guy named Alfred Adler, who was

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Speaker 2: a psychologist kind of picked that up and ran with it,

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Speaker 2: not just entirely birth order, but birth order was a

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Speaker 2: part of his larger theory called Adlerian psychology or individual psychology.

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Speaker 2: And there were basically three founders of psychotherapy as we

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Speaker 2: know it today. There was Adler, Freud and Jung. And

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Speaker 2: Freud and Jung's ideas have been largely dismissed. Alfred Adler's

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Speaker 2: ideas are basically the premise for how we approach psychology today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's a he's an interesting guy. He was

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Speaker 1: a colleague of Freud, and I think through history it

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Speaker 1: seems obvious that a lot of people have kind of

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Speaker 1: said like he was an acolyte or Freud was his mentor,

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Speaker 1: and he went through great pains over the years to

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Speaker 1: say he called me first, Like he would go to

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Speaker 1: reporters and say, look, here's a telegram where Freud got

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Speaker 1: in touch with me and wanted to talk to me.

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Speaker 2: Oh he was like that, huh.

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Speaker 1: Well, I just think he had a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a sort of maybe younger sibling syndrome, and that will

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Speaker 1: you know, you'll see that kind of plays out a

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Speaker 1: little bit in his own sibling dynamic. Yeah, his research.

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Speaker 2: His older brother was named Sigmund two, so I just

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Speaker 2: been freudiant he might have been.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they were together, he and Freud for about nine

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Speaker 1: years studying, but then when they split apart, and some

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Speaker 1: people say that it had a lot to do with

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Speaker 1: this sibling dynamic and birth order thing. I think it

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Speaker 1: was more complicated than that, definitely, But they never talked

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Speaker 1: again after that. No, they were done.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but Adler's ideas went on. It's definitely worth looking into.

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Speaker 2: He basically says that the whole basis of our individual

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Speaker 2: psychology comes out of our social interactions. We learn how

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Speaker 2: to approach life in the world through our interactions early

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Speaker 2: on with our family. That's he called that our lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: There's a web of interactions between parents and kids and

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Speaker 2: also among siblings he called the family constellation. And then

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Speaker 2: he also said that like, basically the point of life

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Speaker 2: was to be a good, contributing member of a society

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Speaker 2: that is working toward positivity and equality. He was way

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Speaker 2: ahead of his time, because this guy was writing one

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Speaker 2: hundred years ago and now we're just starting to adopt

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Speaker 2: his philosophies. Is like not just valid, Like that's the

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Speaker 2: point of individual psychology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he has a good quote too, and again this

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Speaker 1: seems very reasonable to me when he says, it is

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Speaker 1: a common fallacy to imagine that children of the same

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Speaker 1: family are formed in the same environment. Of course, there's

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Speaker 1: much which is the same for all in the same home,

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Speaker 1: but the psychic situation of each child is individual and

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Speaker 1: differs from that of others because of the order of

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Speaker 1: their succession.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he's basically saying something that like you said, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people hang their hat on, which is like, hey,

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Speaker 1: just because you grew up in the same house doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean you grew up in the same house. You know

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Speaker 1: what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, And he gave an example of that that kind

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Speaker 2: of really figured into his theory about birth order, which

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Speaker 2: was to him another big driver personality that came out

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Speaker 2: of the early experience in the family is that especially

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Speaker 2: older and middle children, or actually I guess older and

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Speaker 2: middle children only went through the trauma of being dethroned.

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Speaker 2: They were, you know, at one point, if you were

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Speaker 2: the firstborn, the only one, and then all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden another one comes along and you're not the shining

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Speaker 2: star of your parents' universe any longer. You have to

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Speaker 2: share that with somebody, and he identified that as a

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Speaker 2: trauma and that that alone would significantly contribute to a

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Speaker 2: child's personality, and that was based on birth order.

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Speaker 1: All right, boy, that's a great setup, I think. So

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Speaker 1: let's take a break. Yes, yes, Smiel, what do you think? Yes, perfect,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to come back and break down his

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Speaker 1: thoughts on this whole dethroning of what that meant right

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Speaker 1: after this shot shot. All right, So this isn't that

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Speaker 1: much different as far as what birth order means, but

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Speaker 1: it's a little more specific to his own findings and

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Speaker 1: thoughts on the matter. So, if you're oldest, like you said,

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Speaker 1: you're dethroned once there's a sibling below you, and when

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Speaker 1: that happens, there's a chance you might become a problem

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Speaker 1: because you're trying to get that attention again, you might

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Speaker 1: act out. You will likely feel responsible for your younger

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Speaker 1: siblings as if you're a parent, that can make you

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Speaker 1: pretty neurotic. So that checks that box, and you really

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Speaker 1: may act as a parent. You may kind of help

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Speaker 1: raise the kids, especially back then when the parents are

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Speaker 1: away or the parents are busy. You might be that

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Speaker 1: parental authority in a lot of cases. So you may

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Speaker 1: have a positive view of authority, and because of all

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Speaker 1: of this stuff, you're probably gonna be pretty hard working,

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Speaker 1: and that perfectionist thing comes in pretty conscientious.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So that's the oldest, right, that's right next to

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Speaker 2: second born. If there's two, there's just two kids, this

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Speaker 2: applies to them. They are constantly keeping up or trying

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Speaker 2: to compete with the older sibling. So life is a

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Speaker 2: little bit exhausting. And this is something that Adler himself

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Speaker 2: went through with his older brother Sigmund he as he

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Speaker 2: kind of identified the older sibling then having more of

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Speaker 2: an influence in some cases than the actual parents do

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Speaker 2: on the child's development. Which makes a lot of sense too,

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Speaker 2: because that older child is being a mini parent to

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Speaker 2: the second child. Right If they if the kids finding

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Speaker 2: like they're just constantly are being beat by the by

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Speaker 2: the older sibling, who doesn't even seem to be aware

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Speaker 2: that they're in a competition, they're still winning, they might

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Speaker 2: just go off in a totally different direction and whatever

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Speaker 2: they've identified the older sibling to be, like Alex P.

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Speaker 2: Keaton young Republican type, they're going to go the exact

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Speaker 2: opposite way and start following the grateful.

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Speaker 1: Dead like Tinay others did exactly.

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Speaker 2: Man that name, it doesn't matter Tena others. It's the

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Speaker 2: ultimate name. It was. There's Mallory, Alex and.

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Speaker 1: Others.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if they didn't use Tenay others, I think that

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Speaker 2: was a big miss that the writers walk.

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Speaker 1: Past, I know, and that should They should only have

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Speaker 1: called her by teen the others, not Peter right exactly.

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Speaker 2: And then like in the credits, it says tiny others

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Speaker 2: as Tina others.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as herself. So we mentioned earlier I think I

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Speaker 1: did about Adler's own situation at home, and it turns out,

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Speaker 1: beyond Freud, he had an actual older brother, like you said,

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Speaker 1: whose name was Sigmund, and he sort of had issues

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Speaker 1: with it. He always was trying to live up to

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Speaker 1: this older brother. Sigmund right complained about it a lot.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like I think there was a biographer when

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Speaker 1: he was a little bit older where he said, my

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Speaker 1: eldest brother, he was always ahead of me. He's still

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Speaker 1: ahead of me.

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Speaker 2: Which is true. He's never going to catch up to

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Speaker 2: his eldest brother, at least in birth order.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's right.

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Speaker 2: He also had two younger brothers. One adored Adler kind

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Speaker 2: of bucked the trend. The other one felt competitive with Adler,

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Speaker 2: so he was in the position that Adler was with Sigmund. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the middle child. So say you're having your parents are

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Speaker 2: just hitting it fast and loose, and they're having more

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Speaker 2: and more children. The middle children are going to have

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Speaker 2: their own kind of baggage to carry around. They're frequently

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Speaker 2: they frequently feel forgotten, ignored, neglected, jam bradyish. They may be.

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Speaker 2: They may decide that life is extraordinarily unfair, that they're invisible,

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Speaker 2: and that might really make them neurotic in their own way.

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Speaker 2: And then this really makes a lot of sense to

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Speaker 2: me too. They may find that family constellation that Adler

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Speaker 2: said was so important in your development and in your

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Speaker 2: youth elsewhere outside of the family, they're the kid that

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Speaker 2: goes off and is like, yeah, whatever, you guys have

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Speaker 2: your fun little you know, family barbecue. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: go hang out at my friend's house instead. I like

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Speaker 2: their family more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is interesting because I think that flies in

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Speaker 1: the face a little bit of the typical middle child

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Speaker 1: thing of being a people pleaser and a uni Uh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's funny because I think of the younger child

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Speaker 2: as a people pleaser.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, because that's usually the middle child thing.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing, this is where it exactly fall apart.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Well, because also in my family, like you know,

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Speaker 1: my sister, she did fine in school, I did fine

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Speaker 1: in school, but my brother was like right in the middle,

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Speaker 1: and he was the he's the really smart guy. Sure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so he set the bar as number two. But I

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Speaker 1: also felt like I never felt like I had to

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Speaker 1: live up to that.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's good, that's healthy and lucky.

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Speaker 1: Lucky because I didn't strive to. I wasn't like, no,

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Speaker 1: I can't be as smart as Scott, so I'll just

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Speaker 1: do my own thing. I just didn't really think about it.

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Speaker 1: And my parents, well I was about to say they

390
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Speaker 1: didn't put that kind of pressure on me, but they

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Speaker 1: just there was not a lot of attension on me

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Speaker 1: by the time I came around.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you was your own thing, right, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So well, here we are then, at the youngest, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about myself pampered and spoiled, which I was not,

396
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Speaker 1: because less is expected. Like we mentioned earlier, you're probably

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Speaker 1: going to be a little more adventurous. I definitely was

398
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Speaker 1: more adventurous and as sort of the black cheap in

399
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Speaker 1: my family, but I don't think it was because less

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Speaker 1: it's expected of me. And then, you know, Adler at

401
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Speaker 1: the end talks about how the successful men of our

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Speaker 1: time and I think of all times oftentimes were the youngest,

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Speaker 1: and he mentions like people in the Bible, and he

404
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Speaker 1: even mentions, this is where he lose me a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I mentioned fairy tales and I'm like, so the people

406
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Speaker 1: in these made up stories, the youngest were more successful.

407
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Speaker 1: So that means something to science.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's where I actually wrote careful Adler after that,

409
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Speaker 2: because it's he got you know, he had some really

410
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Speaker 2: great theories. And then one of the big problems of

411
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Speaker 2: early twentieth century psychologists is they just look out in

412
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Speaker 2: places that didn't really apply and use them as proof.

413
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Speaker 2: And that's a good example of that, because his theories

414
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Speaker 2: are very sound and they make a lot of sense.

415
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Speaker 2: They're well thought out. It's just you don't run out

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Speaker 2: to the Bible to your point. It doesn't that's not

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Speaker 2: how science works typically.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look at King David exactly.

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Speaker 2: And then we're at only Children, which okay, we'll do

420
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Speaker 2: a whole episode on them, but they have they have

421
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Speaker 2: the advantage of being the sole recipient of their parents'

422
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Speaker 2: attention and focus and love and adoration, just like a

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Speaker 2: first board child. But they never go through the trauma

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Speaker 2: of being dethroned, so they are basically little kings and

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Speaker 2: queens who.

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Speaker 1: Run the show on top.

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Speaker 2: Essentially.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a king who's not dethroned. He's a king exactly.

429
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Speaker 2: That's true. And Adler wrote that they retain the center

430
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Speaker 2: of the stage without effort. They're generally pampered, and they

431
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Speaker 2: form a style of life based on being supported by

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Speaker 2: others and at the same time ruling them.

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Speaker 1: Great combination, Yeah, totally. Hodgman talks a lot about being

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Speaker 1: an only child. It's very funny to hear him muse

435
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 1: on the stuff. All right, So these theories were out

436
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 1: there in the nineteen twenties basically through for about sixty

437
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: something years, it was sort of just commonly accepted that

438
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: this was the case. They had done studies it backed

439
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: up a lot of this, and then a funny thing

440
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: happened in the nineteen eighties. In fact, in nineteen eighty three,

441
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: there were a couple of Swiss psychologists, Jules Angst and

442
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: Cecil Ernst, and they said, you know what, this is

443
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: all poo poo, and we're going to write our own

444
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: book called Birth Order Colon. It's poopoo. Actually it's birth

445
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: order its influence on personality. And they went back looked

446
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: at all these studies, like fifteen hundred studies from the

447
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: mid forties to nineteen eighty. A lot of these studies

448
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: had backed up Adler's theories and stuff like this. But

449
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: they said, you know what, the closer we looked, the

450
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: more we picked this apart. There are a lot of

451
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: fallacies in here. There are a lot of methodological pitfalls.

452
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 1: And basically I think that there is like birth order

453
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: effect really doesn't have anything to do with personality at

454
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: least no much more than anything else that we could

455
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: kind of find out.

456
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, they definitely poo pooted it. One of the examples

457
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 2: they gave was that there was a meta analysis of

458
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: previous previous studies of birth order findings, which means that

459
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 2: it's a they compile a bunch of findings from a

460
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: bunch of different studies and apply statistical analysis of it.

461
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: They turned these smaller sample sizes into one large sample size,

462
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: and of course it found a positive correlation between the

463
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: birth order and personality traits. But those particular researchers said, well,

464
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: we didn't actually include any studies that didn't find a

465
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 2: positive correlation between birth order and personality traits. We only

466
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: studied ones that did show that. That's like does some

467
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 2: junk science right there. And that's the kind of thing

468
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: that Angst and Ernst were saying, like, this is the

469
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: quality of the studies heretofore and when you really look

470
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: at the methodology and all the like their findings, like

471
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 2: it just does not add up that you can't replicate them.

472
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, they in fact it they had a pretty sick burn.

473
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: They called it post hoc theory, which is basically like

474
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: you can go into these studies and you can find

475
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: whatever you're looking for if you kind of just pick

476
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: apart different parts of it and cherry picked different parts

477
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,959
Speaker 1: of it. And they use one good example they use

478
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: was anxiety and which children in a family had the

479
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: highest anxiety levels and reported those levels. And they said,

480
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: you know, if you look if you're Adler or others,

481
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: you have an explanation for all of them. So if

482
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: it's the youngest, it's because you're the weakest sibling. Which

483
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: is that true?

484
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: I think they mean physically, your older siblings are generally

485
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: bigger and stronger than you.

486
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: Is that true?

487
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 2: Typically? Sure? I mean you compare like a tripy four

488
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 2: year old to a ten year old. Ten year old

489
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: beat up on the four year old any day of

490
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: the week.

491
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: Well, we'll get to the snapshot in time thing. Because

492
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: I thought they meant overall, like I grew up to

493
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 1: be the smallest and weakest.

494
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: No, but yeah, you just touched on a huge problem

495
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: that we'll get you there.

496
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: Don't No, I didn't NeSSI put it in it in

497
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: my brain. If the oldest of the family reported being

498
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: the most anxious, then they said, oh, well, it's because

499
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: they had an experienced mother, and if it was the

500
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: middle it was because they were neglected. So they're like,

501
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: you can't do that.

502
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: That's not science, right exactly, And they pretty much definitively

503
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 2: removed birth order influencing personality as a field of psychology

504
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 2: like psychology turned its back on that, and that was

505
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: it for a dozen years essentially, maybe a little more.

506
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 2: But before their book, or Angston Ernst's book came out

507
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: back in the seventy I think actually nineteen seventy, there

508
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: was a psychologist named Frank Solaway. He was working on

509
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 2: his doctorate think at the time, and he had a

510
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 2: professor that that was into birth order as this is

511
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 2: again this is before the Swiss study of the Swiss

512
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: book came out and made Swiss cheese a birth order.

513
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: And the Soloway's professor said, you know what, Charles Darwin,

514
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 2: let's just talk about Darwin for a second. He said,

515
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: sit down, Soilhaway, sit down, I've been wanting to talk

516
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 2: to you about this. Charles Darwin came up with one

517
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 2: of the most radical theories that science has ever produced

518
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: in coming up with natural selection and evolution. Right, But

519
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: did you know that Darwin's mentor the person that had

520
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: the greatest influence on his work his entire career, a

521
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: geologist named Charles Lyle, did not accept that that we

522
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: have all from apes. Did not accept natural selection. He

523
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: could not accept it. And in fact, Lyle was in

524
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: quite a quite a pickle because he prized science and

525
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: reason and his protoce had just used science and reason

526
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: to show that humans are no different than animals, and

527
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: Lyle was like, no, reason is what separates us from animals.

528
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: So he had a really hard time accepting that, and

529
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: so Sos College professor pointed to Darwin being a later

530
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: born and having a much more ability to think freely

531
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: and Lyle being a firstborn and thinking much more conservatively

532
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: as the explanation to that very famous gulf between the two.

533
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is a stretch for me, even though I

534
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: think there's a lot to birth order. That one is,

535
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a stretch. But Soloway it was like, interesting,

536
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: let me look into this a little more. I want

537
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: to see if this is a reasonable assumption or theory

538
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: at least. And he ended up writing a book in

539
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six called Born to Rebel colon Birth Order,

540
00:29:55,160 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: Family Dynamics, and Creative Lives, and he did his own

541
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: meta analysis of all of these studies that are out there,

542
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: and he basically went on to poo poo Oxton Ernst

543
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: and said Adler was right all along. There's a lot

544
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: of significance to birth order and how it ties to

545
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: your personality. And here's why I think this is true

546
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: because a child occupies a niche in a family, and

547
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: that niche is determined according to your birth order. So

548
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: we're calling a birth order, but what it really is

549
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,719
Speaker 1: is a proxy for what The real things are behind this,

550
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: which is how big you are, what's your status in

551
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: that family, what is your power dynamic in that family,

552
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: what's the age difference and stuff.

553
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: Like that, right, and that those are the things that

554
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: really influence your personality. But they all are, at the

555
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: end of the day, tied into birth order. It's just

556
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 2: not birth order in and of itself, but the qualities

557
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: that come with birth order.

558
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, which seems like splitting hairs, but maybe no

559
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: one had split that hair yet.

560
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: I mean, it makes sense to me. It definitely removes

561
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: it from any kind of like astrological stuff, because birth

562
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: order if you're like, yeah, you're a middle child, so

563
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: you're all these things, not oh yeah you're smaller than

564
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: your older brother, so you have a you don't like

565
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: being touched kind of thing. I don't know. It makes sense.

566
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: It takes it and actually provides an explanation to it.

567
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: And by the way, I just want to point out,

568
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: get this, chuck. So he started this research in nineteen seventy,

569
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: release the book in nineteen ninety six, right smack dab

570
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: in the middle of that twenty five ish years of research,

571
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: that Swiss book came out. Can You imagine dedicating thirteen

572
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: years of research and then all of a sudden some

573
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: book comes along and completely disproves everything you've been working on.

574
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

575
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: But Frank's al always was the kind of be like, Nope,

576
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: they're wrong, I'm right, I'm going to keep going.

577
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And for him, family dynamics all came down to

578
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: a Darwinian power struggle basically between these siblings for affection

579
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: from their parents. So again, if you're first born, you're

580
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: gonna basically act as a surrogate parent to your younger siblings.

581
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: Not because you have some great desire to teach those kids,

582
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: but you're looking at mom and dad and saying, like,

583
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: see how much I'm helping, Like I'm helping be like

584
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: little mommy or little Daddy. It's why they respect authority,

585
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: it's why they're conscientious, and it's why they identify more

586
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: with parents. The younger kids they and again this says

587
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: lacks of physical strength. I guess presumably just because they're

588
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: younger in that snapshot in time, which we'll get to

589
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: don't spoil in, Chuck, but they have what he called

590
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: low power strategies. So still had strategies as far as

591
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: this power struggle, in the family, but more like, hey,

592
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: let me use humor or social intelligence to get their

593
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: affection instead of you know, like physical things.

594
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: They were the kids that were more likely to spend

595
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: their allowance on a bow tie that spins.

596
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: Do you ever have one of those?

597
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: No? I never did. I added like a little clip

598
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: on bow tie for Easter if I remember correctly.

599
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a thing. I know a couple of bow

600
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: tie guys.

601
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: I learned how to tie a bow tie for mine

602
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: and Yumi's wedding.

603
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: Actually, so you were one then yes? Are you like, nah,

604
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: just practice? Yeah. I can't pull off a bow tie.

605
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: It's not a good look for me.

606
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'd like to see that. Let me be

607
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: the judge of that. Okay, all right, okay, well you

608
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: tie it for me. I yes, I will. I know

609
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: how to. I'm a little rusty, but I can get

610
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: it back.

611
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you got to stand behind me and

612
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: wrap your arms around me and do it that way.

613
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: Of course, if you do it in front, it's like

614
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: it's weird.

615
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: And then afterwards we'll do that funny thing where it

616
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: looks like you have four arms and I'm hiding behind you,

617
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: and we'll do all sorts of weird stuff.

618
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: And then after that, I'll get behind you and teach

619
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: you how to swing a golf club.

620
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough, it's all in the.

621
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: Hips, all right. So from that power dynamic to wrap

622
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: it up and that power struggle, we also have the

623
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: middle children. And these are the ones again because you're

624
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: in the middle, you're more likely to cooperate, you're more

625
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: into diplomacy, and you're probably mediating fights between the oldest

626
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: and the youngest, which did not track in my family.

627
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: My sister and my brother and I didn't fight a lot,

628
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: but if there was sibling fighting going on, it was

629
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 1: usually me and my brother because we were closer in age.

630
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: My sister was six when I was born, so I

631
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: was her little baby boy, and so she and I

632
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: never had a lot of fights and stuff, gotcha.

633
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: So one of the other things that Soulo we spent

634
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: his time on was he basically did the same thing

635
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: Francis Galton did. He profiled a bunch of different people

636
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 2: to kind of support his point. I read that he

637
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: he basically created a database of sixty five hundred and

638
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: sixty six historical people who were meaning they were all dead,

639
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: who were involved in one hundred and twenty one different

640
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: political and scientific upheavals from the scientific or sorry, from

641
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: the French Revolution, Protestant Reformation, Darwin's theory of natural selection.

642
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: And then he looked at a bunch of different factors,

643
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 2: but one of those factors was birth order. And what

644
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: he found was I saw an interview with him. He

645
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 2: said that, yeah, there's a bunch of different stuff that

646
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: influence our personality, our behavior. I think he controlled for

647
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty six different ones like age, religion, class, education,

648
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 2: and he said, yes, some of those things influence our personality,

649
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: but he said nothing packs the wallop of birth order.

650
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: He basically said, it's birth order everybody.

651
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And.

652
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: He gave some examples.

653
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: Right, well, yeah, I mean if you look if he

654
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: did sort of the same thing that others have done,

655
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: which is to point at famous people in history and say, well, see,

656
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: look at this person. They were the first born and

657
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: they did this. Look at King David, right, look at

658
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: King David. In this case, he said, look at Mussolini

659
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: and look at Stalin. I believe Stalin was not the firstborn,

660
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 1: but his siblings died in infancy, so he was sort

661
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: of de facto firstborn.

662
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, they call it the psychological firstborn. That's the emphasis

663
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: they put on it.

664
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. So he said, look at these people, they were

665
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: firstborns and they were monsters. And look at Marx and

666
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: Darwin and Gandhi and they were all later borns. And

667
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: you know, when you start breaking it down, though, and

668
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: you say, oh, what about like Isaac Newton or Einstein?

669
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: That goes against your idea because both of those guys

670
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: were firstborns, and it went against the common thinking that

671
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: the later borns were going to be the ones to

672
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: come up with these revolutionary thoughts.

673
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

674
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: And he said, oh yeah, but you know what, the

675
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: people that supported them were two to ten times more

676
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: likely to be later born's.

677
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 2: Right. So he did the opposite in those two cases

678
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: when he pointed to something like he said, Lincoln was

679
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: a second child and he had the revolutionary thinking of

680
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: ending slavery. Yeah, and that's an example of basically being reductivist,

681
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: Like he boiled down these huge historical machinations down to

682
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 2: one individual to point to prove his point. Right, Yeah,

683
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: Lincoln and in slavery and he was a second born.

684
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 2: And then he does the opposite with examples that don't

685
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 2: fit like you said. Einstein and Newton, well they were

686
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: first born, but their supporters were two to ten times

687
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: more likely to be later born. So now he takes

688
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: it from the individual and boils it back out to

689
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: a bunch of different people having to do with these

690
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: revolutions and thinking. It's pretty emblematic from what I've read

691
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 2: of his argument.

692
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love Dave rus who put this together.

693
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: He inserts little jokes here and there just for us,

694
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: but sometimes we like to bring them out on the show.

695
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 1: He wrote that ten times more likely and then put whatever,

696
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: pal right, it's good stuff.

697
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Born to Rebel was a rebel. I've been

698
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: wanting to say that the whole time. Okay, it should

699
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: be elll e really if you think about it. But okay,

700
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 2: so it became, I think when a bestseller. It was

701
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: a really popular book despite being pretty scientific. I think

702
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 2: half of it was scientific annotations and bibliography. But I

703
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: believe he wrote it in like a way that you know,

704
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: the average person could could digest, and it really made

705
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: waves because again he comes along thirteen years after psychology

706
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 2: was like, okay, great, that's done. Birth order has nothing

707
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: to do with anything. He said, Nope, it's the most

708
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: important driver of personality everybody. So he was widely criticized

709
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: for it, including by another controversial thinker in psychology, Judith

710
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: rich Harris. And she was controversial, like I said, because

711
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: she was kind of tangential to the field. She was

712
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 2: kicked out of Harvard during while she was working on

713
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: her doctorate, and later on was awarded with a prestigious

714
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 2: award that was named after the director of the psychology

715
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: department who kicked her out, So she came full circle.

716
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 2: But she was kind of considered like an outside thinker.

717
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 2: But her whole jam was actually parents have like the

718
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 2: least influence on kids' genes and peers that really shape

719
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: people's individual personalities. And she basically said, no, Soloway is

720
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 2: just totally full of it and this doesn't hold water

721
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 2: at all.

722
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she had her own sick burns. Yeah, that

723
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: I think was sicker than the earliest sickburn she said.

724
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: Quote it is never surprising when the originator of a

725
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: theory produces evidence that supports the theory. The real test

726
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: of the theory is whether other people, working independently of

727
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: the originator of the theory produce evidence that supports it

728
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: pretty good burn.

729
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 2: It is a great burn. So I say we take

730
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: our second break, because that basically puts sol Away away

731
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: for now. This is ninety six, and he got shouted

732
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 2: down typically, but his work definitely brought it back into

733
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 2: the popular mainstream, which is why still today you see

734
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: like parenting sites and psychology sites like referring to the

735
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 2: stuff as if it's true and real. So but yeah,

736
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 2: I say we move on, and we use an ad

737
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 2: break as a transition for that.

738
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 1: Let's do it and shot shot.

739
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: Okay, So slow Away really roughle a lot of feathers,

740
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 2: And it took another decade or two before people finally

741
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: like got around to conducting about as legitimate a meta

742
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: analysis of the previous studies that you could possibly do,

743
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: or they compiled their own studies based on really large

744
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 2: sample sizes. Because if birth order is a thing, and

745
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: birth order applies to everybody, including only children, then if

746
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 2: you get a bunch of people together, birth order is

747
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: going to show up in some way, shape or form,

748
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: because it's there among everybody. It's not like some people

749
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: have some sort of birth order. Everybody who's ever born

750
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: has some sort of ranking, even only children. And yet

751
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 2: when you look at really good data using really good methodology,

752
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: it just does not come to the surface.

753
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: That's right. This one was very large in twenty fifteen.

754
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: It looked at data from three hundred and seventy seven

755
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: thousand high school students in the United States. Then there

756
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: was another study in the same year that analyzed data

757
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: from about twenty thousand students in Europe and Germany in

758
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: the US as well and UK. And there were a

759
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: couple of psychologists, Rodika Damien and Brent W. Roberts from

760
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: the Fighting Aliini of the University of Illinois. I'm not

761
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: sure what an Aliini is.

762
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: It's an Illinoianite, is it all right?

763
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: And that sounds about right? Okay, But they fight, I

764
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: know that, right, They're always fun. But they they isolated

765
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: that they tried to do, you know, controls for everything

766
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 1: as well, and they looked at everything, which included of course,

767
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: birth order and then you know, the sex of the

768
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: of the kid, and the number of siblings, size, socio

769
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 1: economics of it all, and all this stuff. And they

770
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: basically said, this is the largest study that we've ever done,

771
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: the most sophisticated of its kind, and there is little

772
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: to no functional relation between birth order and personality like

773
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: full stop.

774
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, full stop is right. And those same psychologists,

775
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: Damien and Roberts, they wrote something they wrote basically like

776
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 2: an editorial in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences,

777
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: which also published their study of the three hundred and

778
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 2: seventy seven thousand high school students. That is such a

779
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 2: huge sample size, and they basically said in this editorial letter,

780
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: here are all the problems from the previous study. There's

781
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: just flaws galore. And they basically divided the types of

782
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 2: studies for examining birth order into two different categories. There

783
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 2: was the between family study design and the within family

784
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 2: study design. And the between family study design said it

785
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 2: just looked at a bunch of people who weren't related

786
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: and then pulled them about their birth order and then

787
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 2: looked at their individual personality traits. Within family design looked

788
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: at the actual members of a single family or multiple

789
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: single families, and then examined the personality traits based on

790
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: their birth order in relation to the other members of

791
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: their family, their sibship.

792
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seemed to hold a lot more water

793
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 1: when you just looked at the family designs within a

794
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: family and not between a bunch of these different families.

795
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: Like this is when it started to make sense a

796
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: little more for me. But at the same time, like,

797
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: I don't feel it's too horoscopy to see that there's

798
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: a lot of correlation between some of these traits, right,

799
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: but the science doesn't hold up then it's just anecdotal basically.

800
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: Well, what they were saying was so like, if you're

801
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: looking at a between family design, you're not taking into

802
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 2: account typically the number of siblings total. You're just taking

803
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: account the birth order. And that they're saying that if

804
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: you look at something like the number of firstborns versus

805
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: later borns, there's more later borns than firstborn so there's

806
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: only one firstborn in a family, but there can be

807
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 2: multiple later borns, right, And that firstborns typically are smarter,

808
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: they have a higher IQ. That will get to in

809
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 2: a second is actually true, and that a lot of

810
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 2: it has to do with them coming from families of

811
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: high socioeconomic status, and that that's not controlled for. If

812
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: you don't control for the SIB ship size, then your

813
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: methodology is just crud. That was just one of multiple

814
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 2: problems they had with it.

815
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you're the what if you're from a

816
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: large Catholic family of like eight kids and you're seven,

817
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: six eight or five of eight, Like, does all this

818
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: stuff just go out the door at that point?

819
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: If birth order is is true, then no, it wouldn't

820
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 2: like there you would have multiples in the middle, like

821
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 2: sharing similar traits. I would guess, right, But that's not

822
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: the case. And then they did another little victory lap

823
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 2: and they basically said, oh, there's a couple of other

824
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: things that are sacred cows in the field of birth

825
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 2: order and personality. One is that it's it's it differs

826
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 2: by gender, that birth order personality traits show up way

827
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 2: more in males than females. And they were like, no,

828
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: that's not true at all. We study that as part

829
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: of this meta analysis. Nope, it's not correct. The other

830
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: one is that, okay, birth order really starts to get

831
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 2: diluted when you look at the full range of siblings

832
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: in a family, especially if there's you know, a decade

833
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 2: or more in between the oldest and the youngest, because

834
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 2: really birth order only shows up between siblings that are

835
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: separated by no more than five years. So it gets

836
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 2: I louted if you'l like at the whole thing, and

837
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: they said, nope, we shrunk everything down to just five

838
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 2: year gaps between siblings tops, and it still did not

839
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 2: show up. So they just absolutely trounced down the theory

840
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: in every single way they could, using the best data

841
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 2: in the best methodology, and they said, guys, it just

842
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: it's not real. Can we please stop talking about this?

843
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and someone else is going to come along because

844
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: people can't stop talking about and researching berth On.

845
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 2: It's true, Yeah, if we look for it.

846
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: It really is. Because as I was doing this, I

847
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: was sort of into thinking about if I felt this

848
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: is true or not, or what about my family? And

849
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: then I was like, who cares? H And that's I

850
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: guess why. It's pop psychology to a certain degree. I mean,

851
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: these findings are sort of interesting, I guess, But what's

852
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: the end game as far as what are we really learning,

853
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: as far as like what makes it us better families

854
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 1: or better as a as a human race? Like probably nothing.

855
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 2: Well to me, it's an example of that that trait

856
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: of twentieth century science that's like a compulsion to find

857
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 2: the one reason that something happens, and this is a

858
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 2: great example of that. But it's also again I think

859
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: it's because we're all like confronted one way or another

860
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: with birth order and made our own observation. So it's

861
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: it's just kind of almost a folk psychology, you know.

862
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. So we were going to talk about

863
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: IQ because it is true that when you look at

864
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: the data in the numbers that firstborn's score highest on

865
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 1: IQ tests. It's not a lot. What I found was

866
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: like a point, so it's not some huge difference on average.

867
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: I don't think it's not a shameful difference.

868
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: It's not a shameful difference, but it was there, and

869
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: there's a guide that has a really interesting take on

870
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: all this. As his name was James, I don't know

871
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: how you would say it. Junk is the only way

872
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: I can say it.

873
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what people call him in the bars, probably.

874
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,240
Speaker 1: Z A j O N c ze yunk oh XEONK.

875
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: I'm going with James ze yunk, right, and the whole

876
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 2: the whole name flows like teeny others. James Zyunk is.

877
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: The youngster yea. So uh he he looked at SAT scores.

878
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: I found this pretty interesting. Actually, he started in nineteen

879
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: sixty seven, when there was a big drop in verbal

880
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 1: SAT scores that went on for about ten years, and

881
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 1: of course people at the time were saying, oh, it's

882
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,800
Speaker 1: because of this, it's because of that, it's because these children.

883
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: These days, our society is just going down the drain.

884
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: People are getting dumber. But later than that, about ten

885
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 1: years later, in seventy six, he said, here's what I predict.

886
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: SAT scores are going to continue to go down for

887
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: about four more years, and then in nineteen eighty they're

888
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: going to start to go up again. And this is why, everybody,

889
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: because there was a baby boom in our and there

890
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: were a lot of firstborn children because of that baby

891
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: boom that were born in nineteen forty nine, so that

892
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: means they would be taking the SAT in about nineteen

893
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: sixty seven. That's when scores peaked because firstborns, as we

894
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,760
Speaker 1: all know, are smarter. And then as each successive child

895
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: is born from sixty seven on, they're not going to

896
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: be as smart, and so these SAT scores are going

897
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: to go down. But once we hit nineteen eighty, at

898
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: all resets, because that baby boom stopped in sixty two,

899
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: and if you were born in sixty two, you're going

900
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: to take the SAT in nineteen eighty, So these scores

901
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,919
Speaker 1: are going to go back up, and they did.

902
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, because between nineteen forty nine and nineteen sixty two

903
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 2: there was it was much likelier that you were a

904
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 2: second born than a first born compared to the beginning

905
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: of the baby boom. So he basically just dropped the

906
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 2: mic right there because it turned out that that's exactly

907
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 2: what happened, Like his prediction came true. And what he

908
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 2: showed was like, yep, birth order has to do with IQ.

909
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 2: It's just as simple as that. It was later followed

910
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 2: up or supported by a study from the Netherlands of

911
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: four hundred thousand military recruits. They found the same thing

912
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 2: with IQ score. And remember the SAT test used to

913
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 2: test your IQ. And so what did I come up with? Zionk? Yeah, sure,

914
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 2: James Zionk. He had a pretty neat theory or an

915
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 2: explanation or hypothesis of why that would be true. And

916
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: he said that it was based on what we talked

917
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: about earlier, that if you're an older sibling, even like

918
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 2: a second born sibling, as long as you're not the baby,

919
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 2: you have the ability or you have the opportunity I

920
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: mean to teach somebody else and to teach stuff. You

921
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: have to know stuff. You have to be paying attention,

922
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 2: you have to be aware, you have to be absorbing information,

923
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 2: and that you have less and less of an opportunity

924
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 2: to teach as more and more kids are born, because

925
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: you're sharing that function with other second or later born kids,

926
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 2: and then if you're the baby, you have no opportunity

927
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: to teach. So you're just the dumbest of the bunch essentially,

928
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 2: at least as far as Xiank's theory went, and again

929
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 2: it's backed up by SAT and IQ scores. But thankfully

930
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: you're saying that it's not that ridiculous of a difference

931
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 2: between firstborn and last born.

932
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that teaching function carries a little weight.

933
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: Definitely, it makes sense at least.

934
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. A lot of this makes it.

935
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: But if there was any warning from this entire episode,

936
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,720
Speaker 2: it's that just because it makes sense doesn't mean it's correct.

937
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: Exactly, because we mentioned this a few times, put that

938
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: pin in it, We're going to take that pin out

939
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: because a very sort of keen thing to be aware

940
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: of with all of this is when they do these studies,

941
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 1: you are looking at a point in time, a snapshot

942
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,399
Speaker 1: in time of when someone does this study, it might

943
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: be when the siblings are eighteen, fourteen, and nine. You

944
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: do that same study with that same family when you

945
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: know ten years later, and they might you might get

946
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: wildly different results on who these people are and what

947
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: their personality is like. So it's you know, you really

948
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,479
Speaker 1: have there's so many things to account for. I don't

949
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 1: know that you can draw some sweet conclusion, like everyone

950
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: keeps desperately trying to do right.

951
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it makes sense too, because I mean it's

952
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 2: called the perfect age compound if you're looking at just

953
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 2: a snapshot in time. Of course, the eighteen year old

954
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 2: oldest born is going to be more conscientious than the

955
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 2: nine year old baby of the family. That's just how

956
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: it works. That has to do with growing up right,

957
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 2: not where you were born, in your sibship, your position.

958
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: And then also, of course the nine year old's going

959
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 2: to be more likely to wander off into the woods

960
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 2: and have fun with their friends than the eighteen year old.

961
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 2: That's just part of being young. So that definitely explains

962
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 2: it quite a bit to me if you ask me.

963
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think where I end up is like

964
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: I think there is a lot to birth order and

965
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: I think it's bound to have an effect on who

966
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: you turn out to be, along with a lot of

967
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: other factors in your life. But I think it's one

968
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: of them.

969
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 2: Okay, well there you go. Well Chuck said he thinks

970
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 2: it's one of them, which of course triggers listener me.

971
00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to call this a follow up on France's Kelsey,

972
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: which I thought was pretty cool. We did a shorty

973
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: recently on Francis Kelsey, one of the heroes of the FDA,

974
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: and we got a letter from Katie entitled, my sister's

975
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: hero was Francis Kelly. Dearest Josh, Chuck, Jerry, and Dave's spirit.

976
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: David appreciates that. Thank you. You guys have no idea

977
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 1: how thrilled I was to listen to today's short stuff

978
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: about Francis Kelsey. This woman is my sister Sarah's hero.

979
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: Like Sarah put a portrait of doctor Kelsey in her

980
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: child's nursery. Hero, my sister Sarah has been telling us

981
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: for years about the important contribution that Kelsey made to

982
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: public health and women's health as a whole, but specifically

983
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: to maternal, infant, child, and adolescent health. And that sounds

984
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 1: after I read this, I was like, oh man, I

985
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: wish we could have done a full thing on Francis Kelsey.

986
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: Sarah works tirelessly in adolescent sexual health despite all the

987
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 1: fire public health has been under for the past few years.

988
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 1: Her devotion to protecting the health of teens, regardless of

989
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: their gender, sexual orientation, or citizen status makes me proud

990
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,720
Speaker 1: to be her sister. I'm so happy at Public Servant

991
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: was highlighted on your show. Thanks from the bottom of

992
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: my heart for sharing the story so more will know

993
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 1: about doctor Kelsey's works. From a long time listener, Katie. Katie,

994
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: this is great and Sarah love that you're doing this

995
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: good work. It's amazing and I'm curious about your birth

996
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: order now.

997
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 2: Very nice. That was a great email, Katie. That was

998
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: a very sweet thing to send us, So thank you

999
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 2: for it. And hats off to YouTube Sarah. Like Chuck said,

1000
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 2: and if you want to look up to your older

1001
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: sibling or younger sibling or whatever, we'd love to hear that.

1002
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 2: You can send it to us in an email to

1003
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,280
Speaker 2: Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

1004
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

1005
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 3: more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

1006
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.