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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 5: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Paul, Ay, Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going well. How about you.

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Speaker 3: I'm hanging in there, you know, just trying to juggle

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Speaker 3: multiple balls at the same time.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking about you because you and I,

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes are in a similar position where we're

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Speaker 2: doing multiple things and multiple genres every day, and it

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Speaker 2: burns me out sometimes. I for a long time just

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Speaker 2: wanted to write books, and then for a long time

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to teach. And then I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'll do podcasting and I'll get involved in TV shows.

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Speaker 1: And it can be a lot.

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Speaker 2: Don't you find that all of these different between you

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Speaker 2: with writing books and podcasting and your TV stuff, It

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Speaker 2: just asks different things of you, like almost like different

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Speaker 2: parts of your brain have to get tapped to get

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Speaker 2: these projects done.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're very different in terms of what they ask

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Speaker 3: of me.

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Speaker 4: For sure.

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Speaker 3: Obviously I'm usually in the crime world in terms of

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Speaker 3: what I'm doing, and so I'm bringing that level of experts,

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Speaker 3: piece and experience. But podcasting versus TV, versus books versus

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Speaker 3: public appearances, you know, it's all different. And what I

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Speaker 3: find sometimes is, you know, I can be on the

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Speaker 3: road and I'm needing to be in front of the camera,

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Speaker 3: and that requires me to kind of get into a

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Speaker 3: certain mindset because I you know, for my entire career

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Speaker 3: that wasn't something I did. So it's a new thing.

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Speaker 3: Even though I've been doing it now for several years,

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Speaker 3: it's still a new thing, and there's still a lot

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Speaker 3: of performance anxiety to make sure that I'm comfortable with

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Speaker 3: what I'm putting on camera and what I'm saying. But

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Speaker 3: then to produce content for the podcast, probably even on

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Speaker 3: the same day as having to film something for TV,

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Speaker 3: you know, that's where you feel I could get stretched thin.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: With my first book, Death in the Air, I was

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Speaker 2: so scared because my very first interview on my book

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Speaker 2: tour was with a show called Think, which is a

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Speaker 2: NPR affiliate show, and it's an incredible show. It is

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Speaker 2: an hour and I was talking about my book book

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Speaker 2: and I had never done an interview before, and so

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Speaker 2: I created this.

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Speaker 1: Massive document of like crib notes based on my book.

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Speaker 2: I had spent two or three years reading, writing, and

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Speaker 2: you would think that I would not have to have,

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Speaker 2: you know, a reference sheet, but I really needed it.

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Speaker 2: And I was just petrified during that whole interview, and

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Speaker 2: then it got better and better. But I still have

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Speaker 2: to do bullet points because people will ask me very

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Speaker 2: specific questions about a book and I'll just kind of go, wait,

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Speaker 2: I've been writing another book now. I can't really remember

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Speaker 2: what levels of pollution were in the air in December

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Speaker 2: twelfth of nineteen fifty two. So it could be very stressful.

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Speaker 2: But I think you and I both really like to

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Speaker 2: embrace the chaos. I think you would not have gone

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Speaker 2: into your job and I would not have tackled my jobs.

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Speaker 2: Have we both not felt comfortable juggling a lot of

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Speaker 2: different things, you know, I.

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Speaker 3: Think throughout my entire career, you know, obviously the cold

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Speaker 3: case side was never an actual assignment for me up

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Speaker 3: until the time I transferred from the Sheriff's office of

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Speaker 3: the DA's office. So I was juggling working in a

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Speaker 3: lab or managing a lab and being how is a

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Speaker 3: division commander with a sheriff's office handling a twelve million

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Speaker 3: dollar budget at one point, So I was juggling all

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Speaker 3: of those tasks while still trying to work the cold cases.

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Speaker 3: And so in some ways, you know, having multiple outlets

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Speaker 3: now that I'm retired, it is keeping me on my toes,

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Speaker 3: you know. And there's so many law enforcement individuals that

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Speaker 3: after they retire, they just kind of wither because they've

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Speaker 3: lost that drive. They no longer getting the adrenaline rush,

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Speaker 3: they no longer have that purpose to live from a

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Speaker 3: career standpoint, and.

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Speaker 4: It can take its toll.

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Speaker 3: And so even though it can be exhausting juggling all

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Speaker 3: these various balls that I am and that you are,

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Speaker 3: it is, you know, something that I hope keeps my

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Speaker 3: mind fresh and you know, kind of just keeps giving

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Speaker 3: me a purpose.

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Speaker 2: When I was thinking about describing Paul Holes's mind, I

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Speaker 2: was thinking fresh that's exactly That's exactly what I thought.

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Speaker 2: And I'm glad that we are part of your rotation.

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Speaker 2: I know that you and I talked before we start

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Speaker 2: recording the show about what you're doing and what I'm doing,

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Speaker 2: and you're always involved in some really interesting case and

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Speaker 2: so I'm glad that you are including us in all

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Speaker 2: of your busyness of the day because it's always been

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Speaker 2: a great I feel like I take a break when

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Speaker 2: I talk to you. I feel like I have to think,

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Speaker 2: but in a different way. So this is a nice

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Speaker 2: outlet for me, not a painful one, Kate.

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Speaker 3: I don't look at this as you know I'm taking

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Speaker 3: a break out to work with you.

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Speaker 4: I actually you are part of what my life is now. Yes, yes, okay.

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Speaker 2: So this story that we're about to talk about starts

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Speaker 2: in Ireland but ends up in the Dakota Territory before

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Speaker 2: there's a state. We're straddling a couple of different worlds.

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Speaker 2: But I think you're really going to find the story interesting.

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Speaker 3: Okay, No, I look forward to it. You know that

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Speaker 3: Codas aren't too far away from Colorado.

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Speaker 4: Though I've never been there.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, let's go ahead and set the scene.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with the main character, who is a man

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Speaker 2: named Thomas Egan. I'm not going to tell you who

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Speaker 2: the victim is just yet, but there are a couple

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Speaker 2: of key players.

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Speaker 1: In here that I want you to keep in mind.

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Speaker 2: So Thomas begins from Ireland, and he was born in

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Speaker 2: eighteen thirty five, so we're in the eighteen hundreds. And

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Speaker 2: in eighteen fifty five, when he's about twenty, Thomas flees

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Speaker 2: Ireland like many people did, and went to the United

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Speaker 2: States because of the Great Irish Famine. Ultimately, he settles

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Speaker 2: in Madison, Wisconsin. He is really trying to achieve that

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Speaker 2: American dream and he seemingly gets it.

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Speaker 1: At the very beginning. When he has settled.

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Speaker 2: In Wisconsin, he meets an Irish widow named Mary Hayden Lyons.

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Speaker 2: And Mary had worked the farm land that she had

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Speaker 2: set up with her now deceased husband and take together.

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Speaker 2: Mary and her husband had a five year old little

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Speaker 2: girl named Catherine, and so Catherine becomes Thomas Egan's stepdaughter,

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Speaker 2: and the three of them live in Wisconsin and everything

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Speaker 2: seems to be fine. Thomas and Mary as their marriage

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Speaker 2: goes along have two sons named Sylvester and John, and

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Speaker 2: then in eighteen seventy six, Thomas and Mary leave Wisconsin

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Speaker 2: and they moved to the Dakota Territory, which is about

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Speaker 2: twenty miles northwest of Sioux Falls. They brought their sons along,

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Speaker 2: so Sylvester and John came along, but Catherine, who was

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Speaker 2: about fifteen, decided she wanted to stay with some of

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Speaker 2: Mary's family in Iowa. So the family's a little bit

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Speaker 2: split up, but everybody seems okay with this. So about

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Speaker 2: two years later, Catherine, the daughter, travels to Dakota and

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Speaker 2: she reunites with her stepfather and her mother on the

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Speaker 2: homestead and everybody is living together. And at this point

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Speaker 2: the Egans had another kid named Tommy, and they had

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Speaker 2: made a really flourishing farm where everybody worked on it,

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Speaker 2: including these young boys. Catherine also began to work on it.

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Speaker 2: She was seventeen at this point. So I know we're

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Speaker 2: moving very fast through the Egans life and marriage, but

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Speaker 2: I have to set it up. We have to know,

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Speaker 2: from the outside, this seems like a solid family. You've

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Speaker 2: got an older daughter who's seventeen, and then you've got

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Speaker 2: three young boys.

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Speaker 1: They're a blended family.

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Speaker 2: In November of eighteen seventy nine, shortly after they got

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Speaker 2: to the Dakota Territory, Catherine meets a man named James

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Speaker 2: van Horn and she moves into the house and they

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Speaker 2: end up getting married.

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Speaker 1: And the house is very close.

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Speaker 2: It's on the same trail that led to the Egan

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Speaker 2: farm and this adjoining property.

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Speaker 4: So Catherine is the oldest daughter.

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Speaker 2: She is okay, yeah, So there's three boys, one older daughter,

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Speaker 2: stepchild of Thomas and daughter of Mary. Again, everything seems

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Speaker 2: to be going well. So Catherine has married this man,

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Speaker 2: James van Horn, and then things start to not go

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Speaker 2: well as soon as James and Catherine get married. Catherine

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Speaker 2: is about twenty years old at this point when she

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Speaker 2: gets married. James van Horne does not like Thomas Egan,

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Speaker 2: not one tiny bit, and they disagreed over it sounds

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Speaker 2: like it's called timber claim, which sounds like land to me.

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Speaker 2: And on one occasion there's a big rift that escalated

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Speaker 2: to a point you're gonna find this interesting. Escalated to

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Speaker 2: a point that James actually had to pay a fine

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Speaker 2: for verbally assaulting Thomas. Good lord, if we had that

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Speaker 2: right now, how many people would be poor, so there

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Speaker 2: was a fine for verbally a soda. For impugning someone's character,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a fine for it. So this is

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Speaker 2: a problem. The hostility led to a lot of acrimony

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Speaker 2: between Catherine and the mother and the stepfather. So Thomas

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Speaker 2: and Mary are kind of heartbroken because Catherine seems to

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Speaker 2: be siding with her husband, so we know that this

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Speaker 2: is going to turn into a murder story. We've got

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Speaker 2: three young boys, a older daughter who's twenty, her new

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Speaker 2: husband who seems hot headed because he's willing to risk

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Speaker 2: a fine for verbally assaulting his now new step.

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Speaker 1: Father in law.

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Speaker 2: And then we've got Mary, the wife, who I'm assuming

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Speaker 2: is stuck in the middle of all of this. If

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Speaker 2: you were a betting man, I don't know if you're

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Speaker 2: a betting man, but if you were a betting man,

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Speaker 2: who would you bet would be the victim of this

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Speaker 2: whole menagerie of characters that are in the Dakota territory

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 3: So James and Catherine and then you have Mary and Thomas.

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Speaker 3: So at least leading up to this marriage to James,

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Speaker 3: it sounded like the family was in harmony. Catherine being

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Speaker 3: the daughter of Mary and Thomas. There weren't any issues there.

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Speaker 3: Everybody seemed to be getting along great. Now you bring

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Speaker 3: in this man, James, and he gets into disagreements. It

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Speaker 3: sounds I mean significant disagreement for the time, at least

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Speaker 3: verbally with apparent financial aspects with Thomas. And so right

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Speaker 3: now this is sounding as if there would be acrimony

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Speaker 3: between Thomas and James, and not knowing more, it could

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Speaker 3: go either way.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: James could be looking at taking out Thomas, possibly to

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Speaker 3: secure whatever financial interest is in this Timber claim, or

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Speaker 3: Thomas can be saying, you know what, James is not

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Speaker 3: a good addition to the family, and he is, you know,

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Speaker 3: the paternal aspect comes to head.

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Speaker 4: And he decides yip he needs to go.

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Speaker 2: And you could have these two women who are caught

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Speaker 2: in the middle of it. So we'll see how it

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Speaker 2: all unfolds. We are now up to September twelfth of

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Speaker 2: eighteen eighty and Thomas is trying to prepare for an

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Speaker 2: overnight trip and he's planning to take two of his

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Speaker 2: sons with him. His oldest son, Sylvester, who at this

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Speaker 2: point is eleven almost twelve, is working on Catherine and

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Speaker 2: James's ranch nearby. So he's going to take these two

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Speaker 2: boys with their oxen and they're going to go do

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Speaker 2: an overnight trip to get some wood and hay for

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Speaker 2: the farm, and they were going to come back. Thomas

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Speaker 2: hasn't seen his wife Mary for a while, which would

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Speaker 2: alarm me and would alarm you, but does not alarm Thomas.

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Speaker 2: And it's because they had a very unusual relationship for

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Speaker 2: that time period. Mary would go away for two or

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Speaker 2: three nights at a time because she worked in a

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Speaker 2: nearby town. They had maintained separate ownership over a percentage

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Speaker 2: of their livestock.

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Speaker 1: She was very independent.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of comfortable separation, it seems like,

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Speaker 2: between the two of them. So he did notice that

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Speaker 2: Mary wasn't there, and he was packing up and he

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Speaker 2: Thomas said to the boys, well let's go on and

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Speaker 2: go and you know, Mom will come back at some point.

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Speaker 2: It won't be a problem. And they went on this

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Speaker 2: overnight oxen trip. So you know, again we come back

243
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Speaker 2: to you know, I'm leading up to some problems with Mary.

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Speaker 2: We get to a point for me where I would

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Speaker 2: be alarmed if I hadn't seen a spouse for.

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Speaker 1: A couple of days.

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Speaker 2: But we always talk about we're living in the age

248
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Speaker 2: of cell phones and email and texting and everything else,

249
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Speaker 2: And there was just a big leap of faith in

250
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Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds for a lot of these folks. They

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Speaker 2: just assumed people would show back up at some point.

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Speaker 3: Sure, you know, Mary going away for a block time

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Speaker 3: sounds like it was just a routine aspect in their relationship. Now,

254
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:28,199
Speaker 3: of course, if something happens to Mary, then this separation,

255
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Speaker 3: these periods of time become absolutely critical in terms of assessing, Okay,

256
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Speaker 3: what was she doing when she is separated? Was she

257
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Speaker 3: living a separate life which this time and distance could

258
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Speaker 3: afford her. Is there anything else going on in which

259
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Speaker 3: now whether it be James or Thomas, could be exploiting

260
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Speaker 3: because of this separation. If Mary ends up becoming a victim,

261
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Speaker 3: now you have a situation to where there could be

262
00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:02,679
Speaker 3: a ready excuse for her going missa And now nobody

263
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 3: is really concerned until it gets to be too long.

264
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Speaker 3: But now there's a lot of time that's passed since

265
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Speaker 3: anything bad has happened to Mary, which complicates trying to

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Speaker 3: figure out what.

267
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,280
Speaker 2: Happened right, and that time is difficult when we talk

268
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,840
Speaker 2: about crime in history. If you look at a case

269
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,280
Speaker 2: like the Bloody Benders, the family who killed all sorts

270
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,040
Speaker 2: of people in the Midwest, they would capture people who

271
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,280
Speaker 2: were traveling who weren't expected to be home for months

272
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,560
Speaker 2: and months and months, and then when someone would be alarmed,

273
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,760
Speaker 2: it would take days or weeks to even get to

274
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Speaker 2: the area where their loved one was supposed to be,

275
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Speaker 2: and by that time, who knows what had happened to them.

276
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Speaker 2: There's such a disadvantage to finding out what happened to

277
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Speaker 2: a potential crime victim in the nineteenth century, No.

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Speaker 4: Question, it would be very tough to work.

279
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Speaker 2: So we also haven't talked about Mary and her relationship

280
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Speaker 2: with Thomas or her relationship with the rest of the family,

281
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 2: but we find out a little bit later that there

282
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,600
Speaker 2: were some tough things in their marriage. First, let's talk

283
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,080
Speaker 2: about what ends up happening on this day, Thomas and

284
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 2: the two boys. So, just so I've caught you up,

285
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,440
Speaker 2: the two boys are Tommy who is eight and John

286
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 2: who is eleven, and then we still have Sylvester who

287
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,040
Speaker 2: is twelve ish, and then we have Catherine who's about twenty.

288
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,360
Speaker 2: So he takes John and he takes Tommy and packs

289
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,760
Speaker 2: the lunch and gets on the cart with the oxen

290
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,200
Speaker 2: and goes overnight. And he comes back and they're unloading

291
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,160
Speaker 2: all of their stuff. They're loading everything that they've purchased,

292
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,120
Speaker 2: and Tommy, who is the.

293
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,200
Speaker 1: Eight year old, goes to the cellar to.

294
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Speaker 2: Drop some things off, and Tommy the eight year old,

295
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 2: finds Mary's dead, beaten body in the cellar. Oh okay,

296
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,000
Speaker 2: we thought it could have been the men, but it

297
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Speaker 2: turns out to be Mary, who might have been stuck

298
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Speaker 2: in between these two hot headed men.

299
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Speaker 3: We don't know right and how The question is is

300
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:50,520
Speaker 3: how long has she been dead?

301
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,720
Speaker 2: And therein lies the issue with nineteenth century forensics sometimes,

302
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,520
Speaker 2: and the bigger issue probably is where are we. We're

303
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,920
Speaker 2: not even in a state, We're in territory at this point.

304
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 2: There is a sheriff who can respond, but Thomas's response

305
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,160
Speaker 2: is a little suspect, and we need to talk about that.

306
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,320
Speaker 2: So Tommy sounds the alarm. He comes running upstairs. Thomas

307
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 2: goes down and looks, and I would presume is alarmed.

308
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,280
Speaker 2: We don't have a read on the way he necessarily reacted,

309
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 2: but he carries Mary's body upstairs and then Thomas sent

310
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Speaker 2: one of the boys to go tell the neighbors, including

311
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 2: James Van Horn and Catherine, Thomas's stepdaughter. Thomas is trying

312
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,080
Speaker 2: to figure out what to do next. He's looking down

313
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 2: at his wife's bloody body. We find out it is

314
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 2: a beating. She died from trauma to the head. We

315
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 2: do know what the murder weapon is, but I'm not

316
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,960
Speaker 2: going to tell you just yet. I want to tell

317
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,320
Speaker 2: you a little bit more about the reaction first. So

318
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 2: Thomas is trying to figure out what to do. The

319
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,360
Speaker 2: neighbors who show up say he was in a daze

320
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 2: and he had a neighbor come up to him and say,

321
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,480
Speaker 2: when Thomas said, what do I do? I don't even

322
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 2: know she's bloody. I don't know what to do. He said,

323
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 2: prepare her for burial. So I don't know if this

324
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,720
Speaker 2: is a religious reaction, like this is the next thing

325
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,439
Speaker 2: to do. But the instinct was not to call the

326
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Speaker 2: authorities in this territory.

327
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Speaker 1: It was let's prepare her for burial.

328
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Speaker 2: And this is from a neighbor who doesn't end up

329
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 2: being connected in any way to the case.

330
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Speaker 1: This is not a suspect.

331
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Speaker 4: Wow, how easy it would be to get away with

332
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Speaker 4: homicide in this era.

333
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,920
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe they thought she fell down the stairs

334
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Speaker 2: and bashed her head. That was definitely a possibility.

335
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Speaker 3: Well, you know, and that is something that is very

336
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,360
Speaker 3: common in terms of how family or lay persons when

337
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 3: they walk into a homicide scene, you know, the shock

338
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,440
Speaker 3: of seeing a dead body, and what do they interpret happened?

339
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Speaker 4: People like that.

340
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,960
Speaker 3: Will go to their known world experiences because they don't

341
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,639
Speaker 3: see homicides, they don't see what violence looks like on

342
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,639
Speaker 3: a human body, and so they try to relate what

343
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 3: they're seeing with something that no in the past. And

344
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,360
Speaker 3: so that is a very common reaction. Oh, she fell

345
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Speaker 3: down the stairs, and that must be what it looks

346
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Speaker 3: like when somebody falls down the stairs.

347
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 1: It's not.

348
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,199
Speaker 3: But that's what the lay person, the average person may conclude.

349
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Speaker 3: And I'm thinking about you know, here, you're in a territory.

350
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Speaker 3: You know, you've got a sheriff who probably has very

351
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 3: limited experience dealing with any type of homicide cases and

352
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,959
Speaker 3: zero resources, you know, so how are they going to

353
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 3: start to sort out what happened?

354
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 1: It becomes complicated.

355
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,360
Speaker 2: It's actually a constable, a local constable. What happens before

356
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,919
Speaker 2: is what's fascinating to me. Thomas Egan's son in law,

357
00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,479
Speaker 2: James van Horne, shows up with some other neighbors, and

358
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 2: they show up on the property because they hear what happens.

359
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 2: They're all armed and they hold a gun to Thomas's

360
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 2: head and essentially conduct a citizen's arrest without trying to

361
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 2: figure out what killed this woman to begin with. So,

362
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,480
Speaker 2: you know, there's a bloody cellar, there's no other signs

363
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,920
Speaker 2: of violence except her bashed head, which is.

364
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 1: A sign of violence.

365
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,639
Speaker 2: But I'm not quite sure why they thought so quickly

366
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 2: that this was murder. But James van Horne says he

367
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:31,160
Speaker 2: killed his wife, I know it, and they arrest him.

368
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 3: Now I start getting suspicious about Thomas and Mary's relationship.

369
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 3: You know, is there some past history there to cause

370
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,680
Speaker 3: people to think that Thomas would inflict this level of

371
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,000
Speaker 3: violence on Mary? Secondarily kind of getting back to my

372
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 3: initial thought, how long has she been dead? You know,

373
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 3: because Thomas and his you know, two boys, you know,

374
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,359
Speaker 3: went on a fairly long trip where there are indications

375
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,480
Speaker 3: that Mary could have been dead prior to Thomas leaving,

376
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 3: or was she killed while he's gone. You know, this

377
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,679
Speaker 3: becomes critical to assessing Thomas's role in this case.

378
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 1: They went on an overnight trip.

379
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,639
Speaker 2: The problem with the timeline is that Mary had an

380
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: unpredictable schedule where sometimes Thomas didn't even know, they just

381
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 2: trusted each other. She would go to town and work

382
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 2: a couple of days, spend the night at whatever house

383
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 2: she was at, and then she would come back in.

384
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 1: So his timeline was very fuzzy.

385
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,200
Speaker 2: He said, my boys and I went overnight to pick

386
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 2: up some hay and some wood. We came back, the

387
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 2: boy found her dead in the cellar. I have no

388
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,359
Speaker 2: idea how long she's been there. He hadn't seen her

389
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,200
Speaker 2: for a few days, just in general. So you've got James,

390
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 2: who is very suspicious along with these local men. He

391
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 2: is placing him under arrest. The local constable shows up

392
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,040
Speaker 2: and pretty quickly locates what turns out to be the

393
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 2: murder weapon, which is a Now you're going to have

394
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 2: to put your nineteenth century hat on a hardwood picket pin,

395
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 2: which is a weighty steak used to keep horses the

396
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 2: other livestock from venturing off. And I have a photo

397
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 2: of what it will look like, and it looks like

398
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 2: a hell of a weapon to me, and it sounds

399
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,239
Speaker 2: like I can guarantee you it's a weapon that they

400
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 2: would have had. So this now to me when I

401
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: show you this, because it's something any farm would have,

402
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 2: it has the potential of either being a weapon that

403
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 2: was intentionally brought for use or it was a weapon

404
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 2: that was found as a weapon of opportunity. So this

405
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 2: is a wooden picket and it's fairly large.

406
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I've never seen this looks like a spike

407
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 3: that has a almost a hammer like head on the

408
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 3: opposite end of the point. Now, one of the things

409
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,400
Speaker 3: that I'm having trouble is do you have a sense

410
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 3: of how long this is?

411
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 2: You know, I don't you have to think this is

412
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 2: meant to hold an ox in place. It's got to

413
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 2: be pound into the ground pretty deeply, I would guess,

414
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't you.

415
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 3: I think so this, I mean, obviously this is a

416
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,120
Speaker 3: This would be a devastating weapon in a bludgeoning Both ends,

417
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 3: you know, the spike end has the ability to be

418
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 3: used to puncture a body, and then you have the shaft,

419
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 3: which is a working surface. If this is wielded as

420
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 3: a weapon, and that would leave linear bruising or linear lacerations,

421
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 3: depending on what part of the body is struck, and

422
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 3: then of course we have this hammer like head that

423
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 3: has a circular you know, literally like a circular face

424
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 3: of a hammer on one end and then almost like

425
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 3: a claw on the other end. And these would leave

426
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 3: potentially unique wounds on the victim. So this here now

427
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 3: in the case if they're saying this is actually the

428
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 3: murder weapon, are they finding blood, are.

429
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 4: They finding hair adhering to this weapon?

430
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 3: And then of course does it appear that Mary was

431
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 3: killed in the cellar, where she's beaten in the cellar,

432
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 3: or had she been beaten somewhere else and then placed

433
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 3: in the cellar to be hidden.

434
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 2: Well, let me answer the first question you had, which

435
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: was what was found on the weapon? How do they

436
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 2: know that this was a weapon and not some old

437
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 2: hardwood picket pin that was discarded in the woods. It

438
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: had blood and it had hair on it, And the

439
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: constable just compared the hairstrands to Mary and who else

440
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 2: would it be really and assumed that this was the

441
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,959
Speaker 2: murder weapon. It had been tossed in the cottonwood trees,

442
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: which were just steps from the house. This seems like

443
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: conclusive she had been at least beaten. I don't know

444
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 2: about beaten to death, but at least beaten and the

445
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: blood and the hair was transported onto this weapon, and

446
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: then the weapon was tossed by the killer.

447
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 3: Now do they give any description of the crime scene

448
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 3: when you have a bludgeoning and I'm assuming you know

449
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 3: the fact that there's hair on this weapon. Is that

450
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: you have blows being inflicted to Mary's head after there's

451
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 3: sufficient bleeding, a sufficient cooled blood source.

452
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 4: When there's more blows.

453
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 3: Now you get pretty significant blood spatter from this type

454
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 3: of weapon. This weapon will provide a lot of energy

455
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 3: when it delivers a blow, and so that blood spatter

456
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 3: can be significant and it can go a fair distance.

457
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 3: Is that what is seen in the crime scene? And

458
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 3: you know, of course this increase is the likelihood of

459
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 3: Mary's blood being spattered onto the killer.

460
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting the amount of details in this case.

461
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 2: You know, we don't have it from public record. We're

462
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: gathering it from a lot of different sources, but we

463
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 2: don't have information from the trial. A lot of it

464
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 2: comes from the newspapers. The reporters are saying, this is

465
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 2: what the evidence appears to show.

466
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: There's a lot of blood.

467
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: In the house above the cellar, and the way that

468
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 2: the prosecutor is framing this as he, you know, begins

469
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: to put a case together against Thomas Egan, which who

470
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: else would it be. Has said that it seems like

471
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: they would have gotten into a fight and he beat

472
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: her on the head. There's blood around the kitchen area

473
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 2: up a and there's a trapdoor which was very common

474
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 2: in the kitchen which would open up and allow you

475
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: to drop trash, whatever goods down into the cellar below.

476
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: And that's what it appears like happened. She was killed

477
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: up above and dropped through the trap door below, so

478
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 2: there must be blood up above also and then below

479
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: where it presumably pulled as she lay there for good

480
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: knows how long.

481
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: Sure.

482
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: Now this becomes critical because it's not just Thomas and

483
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 3: Mary living inside this house. If you have a large

484
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: amount of blood in a common area in the house

485
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 3: where the kids can go, now they become important witnesses

486
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 3: in terms of establishing a timeline of when they.

487
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 4: Were in it. I think you said the blood was

488
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 4: in the kitchen area.

489
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the kids, remember, are gone, Nobody is around

490
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 2: when this is happening. Nobody's in the house. The kids

491
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: don't report anything.

492
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 4: Where I'm going is is Okay?

493
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 3: We know Thomas has left, so he's done an overnight trip.

494
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 3: He comes back and little Tommy finds his mom down

495
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 3: in the cellar. So this would necessitate if Thomas is involved,

496
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 3: then Thomas killed Mary prior to this trip, that would

497
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: tend to indicate that the blood in the kitchen was

498
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: deposited prior to them going on the trip.

499
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 4: Now I want to know what the boys saw.

500
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 3: If Thomas is suspect, did these boys and they're of

501
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 3: age in terms of the youngest is eight, so you

502
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: have what twelve eleven and eight if I believe is

503
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: what you said, had they been in that kitchen prior

504
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 3: to leaving on the trip? When did they go into

505
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 3: that kitchen? Were they told not to go into the

506
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 3: kitchen by Thomas? You know, there's so many questions about

507
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 3: these boys as potential witnesses to try to establish when

508
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: was this blood in the kitchen? Could it have been

509
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 3: deposited and they would not have seen it? And that

510
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: opens up the door for Thomas having killed Mary and

511
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: then throwing her body down the chute into the cellar

512
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 3: and keeps his boys away from the kitchen and goes

513
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: and leaves.

514
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: The boys don't have a lot of good information to offer.

515
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 2: They just said we haven't seen our mom for a

516
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: few days. They didn't say they saw blood anywhere. They

517
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 2: did say a couple of key things. He, as you

518
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: can imagine, is arrested and then goes to trial because

519
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 2: number one, she's been murdered on the property. Number two,

520
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: the constable starts asking a lot of questions from family

521
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: and friends, including James, the son in law, and Catherine,

522
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: the stepdaughter, and they find out that Mary and Thomas

523
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: had a hard relationship. One of the boys testifies, The

524
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: oldest son said that Thomas used to quote pound Mary.

525
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 2: He would abuse her and call her all kinds of names,

526
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: and he remembered a time in June that his father

527
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 2: had struck Mary three times and knocked her down. So

528
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: we're learning a little bit more about their marriage, which

529
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like things are going that well.

530
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: This is the oldest boy saying this.

531
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: The twelve year old Thomas is not a good guy. However,

532
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 3: a case still needs to be proven against him. So

533
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 3: that's what I am now wanting to hear, is Okay,

534
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 3: what do they have against Thomas besides just the relationship aspects.

535
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 3: How are they making a case against him.

536
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: They're not making a very good case aside from relationship

537
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: and the question who else would it have been. Obviously

538
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: they can't confirm that this is her blood, this is

539
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 2: her hair. That would have been very limiting in the

540
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds. Thomas says, I wasn't there when this happened.

541
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: But because Catherine testifies, his stepdaughter testifies that she hadn't

542
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: seen her mother for several weeks, So then that expands.

543
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: The timeline even more.

544
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: No one can put her on the farm at a

545
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: certain time, at a certain location. The boys are not

546
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: reporting anything unusual that happened during this time, and so

547
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: they have very little evidence. I'm sure with modern technology,

548
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: of course, but also with just modern thinking and policing,

549
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: they would have gotten more information. But I think that

550
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: they're assuming that this was a crime scene. Thomas is lying,

551
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: and there was not even really enough information to say

552
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: when she died. They didn't use stomach contents. It doesn't

553
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: appear this is still Dakota territory. I mean, again, this

554
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: is very rudimentary. This poor constable trying to put together

555
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: a case. It must have been very stressful.

556
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 4: What time of year was this.

557
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: So this happened on September twelfth of eighteen eighty is

558
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: when Thomas left. I don't know what September and the

559
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 2: Dakotas are like, but not extraordinarily hot and not extraordinarily cold.

560
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm just going to assume, you know, average,

561
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 3: you know, kind of moderate temperatures. Her body's in a

562
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 3: cellar that's going to be cooler than you know, being

563
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 3: up probably on the main level of the house, you know,

564
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: so there could be a kind of a slower rate

565
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 3: of decomposition.

566
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: But obviously, if she.

567
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 3: Had been killed several weeks prior to this Oxen trip,

568
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 3: her body, even in that cellar, is going to be

569
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 3: in a pretty significant state of decomposition, and that's going

570
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 3: to be obvious. The fact that they're not talking about that,

571
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 3: or the insect activity up there on her body, it

572
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 3: would tell me that likely her body was in a

573
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 3: fresher condition, so probably had been killed closer in time

574
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: to the Oxen trip. There's an absolute lack of the

575
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 3: forensic techniques that we could use today. They just didn't

576
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 3: have access to that. But there is just fundamental common

577
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: sense investigative steps that should be taken and Mary going away.

578
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 3: You know, she had a job in a different town.

579
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: Investigators need to be going out there verifying that she

580
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 3: was out there, that she was working, and then when

581
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 3: did she leave to go back home. Is it possible

582
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: that she returned back home when Thomas and the boys

583
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 3: were out on this overnight Oxen trip, if they could

584
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 3: really verify that Oxen trip really happened and Thomas was unavailable,

585
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: Now this is a window of time in which a

586
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 3: different person could have come in and killed Mary. So

587
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: this is just, you know, straight up, you know gumshoe

588
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: detective work that they most certainly could do back in

589
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 3: the eighteen hundreds.

590
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: Well, Thomas said, I have an alibi. I was with

591
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: my two boys when this happened. And the prosecutor said,

592
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 2: as we've been talking about, I'm not convinced that this

593
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 2: happened Thomas, while you were on your trip with your boys.

594
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: You could have sent the boys away. He could have

595
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: sent them away to James's ranch for twelve hours and

596
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 2: cleaned up and then said, Mom, you know we'll be

597
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: gone for a few days. I can tell you right

598
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: now where my mother is. Right now, I know exactly

599
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: where she is. I have hern life three sixty. I

600
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: know where everybody in my family is right now, But

601
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: it was so different then. Even if Mary had disappeared

602
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: for weeks, the boys probably.

603
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: Wouldn't have thought anything of it. It's just such a different.

604
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 3: World, right, But it really still it comes down to

605
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 3: this window of time in terms of determining Thomas's involvement

606
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 3: and the investigations to take a look at all possibilities here.

607
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: You have a dispute with the son in law James

608
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,959
Speaker 3: and Thomas. Is it possible that James set Thomas up

609
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 3: when Thomas left. He's now eliminated his wife's parents and

610
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 3: has this financial interest which now Catherine is likely going

611
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 3: to inherit. There's a financial motive there for James to

612
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 3: be getting involved with this.

613
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about that. See, I do learn things

614
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: from you, Paul. It's rare, but I thank you.

615
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: I'm gonna mark this on my own.

616
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: Mary and Thomas had separate finances, so you're right now,

617
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: it might have all gone to Thomas.

618
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: We don't know.

619
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 2: We don't know if she had a will or any

620
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: of that. They did confirm that Thomas was on this

621
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: Oxen trip with her boys. Let me ask you this

622
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: you saw the weapon, and we know Sylvester stayed home

623
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: the twelve year old. Is it possible that a twelve

624
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: year old could use that weapon if it was heavy enough,

625
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: and he could have done this damage to his own

626
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: mother for whatever reason.

627
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: There's no question a twelve year old boy would have

628
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 3: sufficient strength to yield this weapon to inflict lethal blows.

629
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 3: You know, now, of course it's going to be okay.

630
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 3: What would be the reason? What was their relationship?

631
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: Like?

632
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 3: Does he possess the physical strength to move her body

633
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 3: into the cellar? Chances are yes, would be my guess,

634
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: because I think of myself. I was a boy that

635
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 3: matured pretty fast physically, you know, by the eighth grade.

636
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 4: I'm the same height I am now.

637
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 3: I grew very fast, and I had a fair amount

638
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 3: of strength as a twelve year old boy. So I

639
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 3: probably could have easily accomplished this type of violence on

640
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 3: an adult woman at that age.

641
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 4: But did he you know, that's the question.

642
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: What's the motive?

643
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 2: You're right, we don't work a lot with crimes of

644
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: passion on this show. Most of our crimes feel as

645
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: if they're trying to be sophisticated. Our criminals are trying

646
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: to be sophisticated. On this show, they're often premeditated, so

647
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: crime of passion would surprise me here. Yeah, I just

648
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: want to throw that out there, that that's another possibility

649
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: that you have someone else who was not with Thomas.

650
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 2: If we take Thomas and the two younger boys and

651
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: say they did take that trip this is when.

652
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: She died, who are we left with.

653
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 2: You've got James, You've got I guess Catherine, You've got Sylvester,

654
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: and then you have anonymous offender. There's a host of

655
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: people in the wilderness who could have come out and

656
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: attack this woman. But let me say this, the strength

657
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: we were talking about the strength of a twelve year old boy.

658
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 2: Remember they think this happened in the kitchen. She was

659
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: beaten and then all the person did was open up

660
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: the cellar door and drop her down. So I don't

661
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: know how much dragging would have been involved. And she

662
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 2: was just found right below the cellar door.

663
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: You know, part of assessing the offender's physical attributes to

664
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 3: be able to accomplish this crime, it is taking a

665
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 3: look at the body disposal. If she's dropped down this shute,

666
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: was the height of the shoot from the floor, how

667
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 3: high would the body have to be picked up in

668
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: order for the offender to have gotten her into this

669
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: shoot to drop down.

670
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: Right, Well, let's focus back on Thomas because we're getting

671
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: to the end of this trial and Thomas just says.

672
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: I have an alibi. I didn't do it. You can't

673
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: prove it.

674
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 2: And the defense attorney goes over the evidence, which is, yes,

675
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: they've identified the murder weapon. The fingerprints are either not

676
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: available or they never examined them.

677
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: They can't even confirm it's her hair.

678
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: They're just assuming he has an alibi, but time of

679
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: death is so inaccurate that they don't really know. This

680
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: seems like a circumstantial case. But he sounds like such

681
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: an asshole that it seems like, if she is being

682
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: killed intentionally, this is the person who did it. What

683
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: do you think if you're on a jury, you're one

684
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: of the twelve men on a jury in rural Dakota,

685
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 2: and you're hearing this case about this poor woman who's

686
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 2: found dead in her cellar by her.

687
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: Eight year old son.

688
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 3: I know, obviously, if he is really as abusive as

689
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 3: the sun testified, he's just a piece of shit. Yeah,

690
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: And so as a juror, you know, that is going

691
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 3: to be something that if presented in front of the jury,

692
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 3: they are going to be weighing heavily, you know.

693
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 4: But this is part of the.

694
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 3: Reason why many of these aspects of a defendant's life

695
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 3: are not presented in front of the jury, because they

696
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 3: need to be judged on the facts of the case

697
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 3: and not prior events or something that's going to bias

698
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: the jury. So part of you know, what I would

699
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 3: be evaluating if I were looking at this case, let's

700
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: say from a conviction integrity standpoint, is Okay, what was presented?

701
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 3: Did the prosecutor present very biasing information that probably should

702
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 3: have been excluded and that that unnecessarily influence the jurors

703
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 3: to conviction.

704
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: So you're a not guilty based on lack of evidence.

705
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 3: Right now, I would say, I just don't know, you know,

706
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 3: at least at least with what you've presented me. It's

707
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 3: too open in terms terms of what Thomas's role in

708
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 3: Mary's death was. Bad guys do come around while husbands

709
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: are away and kill women.

710
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 4: That's happens, you know, So I have to take that

711
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 4: into account.

712
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: I can't just assume because Thomas is an abusive husband

713
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 3: that he must absolutely be responsible for this homicide.

714
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: Okay.

715
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 2: So in May of eighteen eighty two, the jury of

716
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: twelve men was convinced that he was guilty, and he

717
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 2: was found guilty, and he was sentenced to death by hanging.

718
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: What was so upsetting to Thomas particularly was Catherine's testimony,

719
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 2: his stepdaughter.

720
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: He felt like he had been good to her.

721
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 2: He didn't get along with her husband, but he felt

722
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: like he always got along with her. And when she

723
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 2: got on the stand on behalf of the prosecution and

724
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: just put in to question the timeline by saying, listen,

725
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: I haven't seen my mom in several weeks.

726
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: I think he did it and they had a hard marriage.

727
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 2: He was very hurt, and he said when the judge said,

728
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 2: do you have anything to say, he said, Judge, I

729
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 2: have nothing against anybody in the court or anybody around

730
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: the country except the van Horns, which are Catherine and James.

731
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: They betrayed me. May the curse of God be upon them.

732
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: This is very nineteenth century, by the way, this kind

733
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: of speech. I can't stand it, sir. The law may

734
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: not reach the van Horns, but the curse of God will.

735
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: And the judge said, you're sentenced to hang. It's an

736
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 2: uncomfortable case for me because we just at this point

737
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 2: don't know enough. But we know that he is going

738
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 2: to go through a very public hanging.

739
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:31,959
Speaker 1: And it was such a big deal.

740
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: It was such a high profile case that the sheriff

741
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: ordered a noose from a Lincoln, Nebraska based company that

742
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: was created specifically for executions. This rope was made of

743
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: a blended silk and hemp. I know this is a weird,

744
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: weird detail for me to tell you, but it arrived

745
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: late and they were not able to test it before

746
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: Thomas Egan's execution in July.

747
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: You can tell this is going to be a big moment.

748
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, That's what I was just thinking, is okay, this

749
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: execution is going to get messy.

750
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: Listen, these are not easy. This was not easy for

751
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 2: them to figure out. There's the jerk up method, there's

752
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 2: a drop down method. There's how big of a weight

753
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 2: you use. I'm saying this in a very detached way,

754
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 2: but I've just written about public hanging so often. It

755
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: feels like everything I've ever written about is.

756
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: When they go wrong. And this went very wrong.

757
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: So nine thirty July thirteen, eighteen eighty two, Thomas Egan

758
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 2: was taken to the gallows. He was forty seven years old,

759
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 2: and he I presume I didn't read this, but I

760
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: presume they put a hood that was very common in

761
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 2: the nineteenth century. They put a hood over him so

762
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: he couldn't see, he could have last words. They put

763
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 2: a noose around his neck and positioned him over ironically,

764
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: a trap door. Five minutes later, they opened the door

765
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: and Thomas fell five and a half feet, but the

766
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: rope snapped and he dropped like a large sack of

767
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 2: sea corn and landed on his feet before falling onto

768
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: his face and stomach because he was opinions. His hands

769
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 2: and feet were opinioned, so he couldn't flail around, and

770
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: he made this blood curdling noise, so he was dropped

771
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 2: and then promptly thrown onto his face. I mean, it's terrible,

772
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: and I'm sure it was terrible for people to view

773
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 2: this kind of thing.

774
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 3: Sure, you know the fact that his body weight, you know,

775
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: it applied enough force to snap this rope, and it

776
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 3: sounds like there was a defect in the rope, but

777
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 3: that's still a significant force to the human neck. It's

778
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 3: entirely possible that his neck was broken at that point,

779
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 3: you know, which would cause up in the cervical are

780
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 3: depending on where in the cervical area it's broken, but

781
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 3: you can most certainly have a complete paralysis, you know,

782
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 3: where he couldn't move, even though you know he's still

783
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 3: uttering making utterances while he's laying there.

784
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: He is in misery, whatever the medical condition he was in.

785
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: They drag him up back on to the stage.

786
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: Four attendants put him back up above the trap door,

787
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 2: and all of the prisoners from inside the jail can

788
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: see it, and they're yelling a condemned man can only

789
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 2: be hanged once. You know, they're saying, stop this, this

790
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: is cruelty. They put a new rope around his neck.

791
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 2: But then somebody, I don't mean to laugh at this,

792
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: but somebody trips the trap door before they got it

793
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 2: on correctly, and he falls again, and it still doesn't

794
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: do it. This is the incredibly difficult thing about public execution.

795
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 2: You just never know what was going to happen. So finally,

796
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: the third attempt works and Thomas Egan is pronounced dead

797
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 2: at nine forty six that morning. It's considered a triumph

798
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: to many people in that area because of what he did,

799
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: because he killed his wife an eighteen ninety nine publication

800
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: called The History of Mine Haha.

801
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you guys if I pronounced that incorrectly. Miniehaha.

802
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: County wrote that while the scene was harrowing, it seemed

803
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 2: but the just retribution for so horrible a crime, so

804
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: a terrible story, a terrible ending.

805
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 1: And this poor.

806
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 2: Wife who died, who seemed to be a good woman,

807
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 2: is murdered and her husband is hanged, and the children

808
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: are left without parents. Catherine takes them and they all

809
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 2: move to Washington State, and the story of the Egans

810
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: vanishes from the late eighteen hundreds and it's just a

811
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: sad story.

812
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, except I'm still skeptical.

813
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 3: I want to know. It's follow the money. How did

814
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 3: Catherine and James benefit from this?

815
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 2: Well, you should be skeptical because the story's not over yet,

816
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: of course. And the story's not over because Thomas Egan

817
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: didn't do it. What we have a deathbed confession.

818
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 4: Oh you've been holding way back on me.

819
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 2: I have, And now we're going to see what you

820
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 2: think about this. So okay, Now let's look at the

821
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: cast of characters. You've got the twelve year old Sylvester,

822
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 2: who you've said has the ability, the physical ability to

823
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 2: beat his mother to death, and we don't know why

824
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: that would happen. You've got James Van Horn, you have

825
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: just the wild guy who comes in from the wilderness

826
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 2: and kills her, and you also have her daughter, Katherine available.

827
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: So right now, from what you know, and I know

828
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 2: you don't have a ton of information, who would you

829
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: think is on the deathbed making a confession.

830
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: This is the longest you've bought without talking.

831
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 3: I think, well, I really lean towards it's either going

832
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 3: to be James or Catherine. I can't say one over

833
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 3: the other at this point without knowing more.

834
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: It was Catherine, Okay.

835
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 3: Daughter came over while dad was with his sons on

836
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 3: the Oxen trip and got into what a dispute with mom?

837
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 2: Yep, you got it. This is decades later. This is

838
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty seven. So he was executed in eighteen eighty two.

839
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: This is a long time, forty five years. Katherine Van

840
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 2: Horne is now living in Seattle. She's sixty five. She's

841
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 2: dying from a stomach obstruction, and in the final days

842
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: of her life she wanted a deathbed confession documented that

843
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 2: she was the one who killed Mary. She said, back

844
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: in South Dakota in the early eighties, which is eighteen eighties,

845
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: I killed my mother. I did not live far from

846
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 2: my mother. One day, when my stepfather and the kids

847
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 2: were away from home, I went to my mother's We quarreled.

848
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 2: I hit her over the head with a picket pen.

849
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: She fell to the floor. I hit her again and again.

850
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 2: Then I realized that she was dead. I was terribly frightened,

851
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: so I opened the trap door of the cellar, shoved

852
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 2: her through the hole, carefully closed the door, and fled.

853
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 2: After I got outside, I noticed the picket pin was

854
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: still in my hand. I threw it away. I looked

855
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 2: cautiously around. No one was in sight. No one would

856
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 2: ever know what I had done. Then I turned and

857
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: ran as fast as I could. No one ever suspected

858
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: of me crime of passion. We don't know what they

859
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: got into a fight about, but that was a surprise

860
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 2: to me.

861
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 3: You know, as I'm listening to the details of the confession,

862
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 3: I'm weighing those details against the crime scene. You know,

863
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 3: I want to hear specific details that would separate, you know,

864
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: her confession, to give me something that I could go to.

865
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 3: Let's say photos to the autopsy, et cetera, and be

866
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 3: able to confirm. Obviously, this went through trial, and she

867
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 3: would have learned a lot about the crime. She had

868
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: not been the killer, but she could probably have learned

869
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 3: everything she confessed to during trial. I'd be looking for

870
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 3: that bit of information that was not presented at trial,

871
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 3: but I could verify through the physical evidence something objective

872
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 3: to say, yes, she truly is the killer.

873
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 4: Now I'm not doubting.

874
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 3: I don't see any motivation for her to confess to

875
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 3: this if she didn't do it right.

876
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: And I want to bring up two points to you

877
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: as I was reading through the research on this that

878
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: made me think. Number One, do you remember who arrested

879
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: him immediately without figuring out was this a fall? Did

880
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: she fall through the trap door accidentally? James Van Horn

881
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: arrested him immediately, Catherine's husband. And I am going to

882
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 2: bring into question whether or not Thomas was actually abusive

883
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 2: toward Mary. And the reason I say that is no

884
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: one else testified that. Number One, it was Sylvester, the

885
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: twelve year old. But Sylvester was with the Van Horns

886
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 2: all the time. Who is not to say that they

887
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 2: did not convince him to testify. We don't know, but

888
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: that is a possibility.

889
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say that's a distinct possibility.

890
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 3: And I would say, what are the primary questions that

891
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 3: I have about Catherine's confession? Is she's indicating it was

892
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 3: in the moment, the heat of the moment, no pre planning,

893
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 3: yet she had this oxen picket pen with her. Was

894
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 3: there actually more intent behind this than what she was

895
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 3: willing to divulge on in her deathbed confession, because she

896
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 3: would look a lot worse if this was something pre planned.

897
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: Right.

898
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 3: And then James, her husband, is the one who is

899
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 3: now in essence, pointing the finger immediately at his father

900
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 3: in law. You know, was this a conspiracy between James

901
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 3: and Catherine?

902
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 4: Again?

903
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 3: I go back to, in this particular instance, the money,

904
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 3: because that appears to have been the primary family dispute

905
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 3: prior to this homicide.

906
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: Yep.

907
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 3: And how did Catherine and James benefit? And I bet

908
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: they benefited pretty significantly.

909
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

910
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 2: And what's interesting is that Catherine had a son named John,

911
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 2: and John was the one who took this confession. He

912
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: chose to not go public with it, so she said

913
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: I did it, and then she died, and rather than

914
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 2: exonerate his grandfather who had been wrongfully executed.

915
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: He chose to sit on it.

916
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 2: That changed when John's kids found out about all of this.

917
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: They're the ones who went public with it. And in

918
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three, South Dakota's governor issued a posthumous pardon

919
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: for Thomas Egan. Finally, and there's a historical marker that

920
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: designates the location where he was hanged.

921
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: What an incredible story, I mean, boy.

922
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, one hundred and thirteen years later, in essence,

923
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 3: Thomas's conviction is thrown out.

924
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 2: Yep, and we see that I don't know anything about Thomas.

925
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 2: We'll never know whether he was truly abusive, but we

926
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: do know that Catherine was a liar. Yeah, and she

927
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 2: covered up something for a long time, and Thomas did

928
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 2: not lie about his alibi. So I don't know what happened,

929
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: but boy, she got away with it. We had this

930
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 2: quote from him where he says, the law may not

931
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 2: reach the Van Horns, but the curse of God will.

932
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: I wonder what happened in Catherine's life to make her

933
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 2: finally do that at the very end of her life,

934
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 2: if that was guilt or or.

935
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 4: What I'm assuming that James had died prior.

936
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: To Catherine, I would believe, so, yes.

937
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, So in essence, you know, at this point, there's

938
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: no harm being done to anybody she cares about by

939
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 3: by giving this confession, right, and in essence, you know,

940
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 3: I'm assuming that they were religious individuals.

941
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 4: And now she's going to go meet her maker.

942
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, she's got her father saying in court

943
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 3: the curse of God on the van horns. Right, so

944
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 3: now she's recognizing, oh, maybe I do need to, you know,

945
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 3: make a confession, just ready for what's going to be

946
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 3: coming after me in the next life.

947
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,280
Speaker 2: We have done cases about this where we know, of course,

948
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: the executions are irreversible. I mean, this is once you've

949
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: executed someone. And I'm not interested in talking about my

950
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: stance or your stance or anybody's stance on the death

951
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: penalty on this show. But I am interested in stories

952
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: like these where you just say, this happens. People are

953
00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,919
Speaker 2: innocent sometimes and this happens. So wo I will say, Paul,

954
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 2: I need a week off after this case. This was

955
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 2: a very hard case, and we thankfully have one week off.

956
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: We're on hiatus next week, so that gives you a

957
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 2: week to think about are there any more suspects.

958
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 4: I think it's open and shut on Catherine.

959
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 2: There you go, there you go. Okay, thank you and

960
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:21,240
Speaker 2: we will see you in two weeks.

961
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 4: Paul, awesome, Kate, thank you very much.

962
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for.

963
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com

964
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 3: slash Buried Bones Sources.

965
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

966
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

967
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

968
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

969
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

970
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

971
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

972
00:50:58,400 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 2: Baried Bones pod.

973
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

974
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

975
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

976
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,280
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

977
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: Cases is also available now