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Speaker 1: twenty five. Today's episode is with golf course architect shaper
Speaker 1: extraordinaire yaeger Kovich. Yeager has been on the pod previously
Speaker 1: last fall. He was on in November We talked a
Speaker 1: lot about his career. I recommend listening to that if
Speaker 1: you have not listened to it yet. That gets much
Speaker 1: more into his backstory. Some interesting stuff in those podcasts.
Speaker 1: I think there are two of them actually this episode,
Speaker 1: we just I wanted to get them on to talk
Speaker 1: about Ironom INNK, the site of this week's Women's PGA Championship.
Speaker 1: It is a Donald Ross course in Philadelphia. Yeager was
Speaker 1: on the crew from Hans Design, Gil Hanson Jim Wagner
Speaker 1: who did a wonderful restoration of Ironom Inc. We have
Speaker 1: a video that is premiering on YouTube on Tuesday night
Speaker 1: worth checking out.
Speaker 2: That goes that should be.
Speaker 1: A nice accompaniment to this conversation with some beautiful visuals
Speaker 1: from Aronomy, you know drone footage and Gilhan's commentary on that.
Speaker 1: And one other quick note. If you don't yet, be
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Speaker 1: All you have to do is go over to the
Speaker 1: Frida egg dot com and there is a sign up
Speaker 1: form right there, without further ado, here is Jaeger Kovich.
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a Frida egg,
Speaker 1: Frida egg, Frida egg, Frida egg, Frida, fridagg bride egg, Lie,
Speaker 1: I'm about ready to run off with the So you
Speaker 1: were you were associate a shaper at Aeronomy during the restoration.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I was there most every day working for Gil and
Speaker 4: Jim and they were, you know.
Speaker 3: A big part of it as well.
Speaker 4: They were there doing a lot of the shaping and
Speaker 4: dozing and excavating right alongside. And I was just lucky
Speaker 4: to be there every day helping out as well and
Speaker 4: working with John Goswin, the outstanding superintendent, and you.
Speaker 3: Know, keeping an eye on the contractor as well. It
Speaker 3: was great. It was a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: Now what So when you're in that type of role,
Speaker 1: what what are you doing day to day?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 1: You know, obviously you're you're not, you know, the architect
Speaker 1: in charge, but you're there every day, which you know
Speaker 1: Jim and Gill aren't always there every day, but you
Speaker 1: know they're there a lot.
Speaker 4: But yeah, you know, especially with uh, you know gilbilling
Speaker 4: down the street in Alverne, he got to spend quite
Speaker 4: a bit of extra time there, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 4: You know, getting the sleep in your own bed is
Speaker 4: is pretty neat. Then get the work at a place
Speaker 4: closed this, I mean that was that was pretty awesome.
Speaker 4: So he was, they were, they were around a lot,
Speaker 4: but you know, most every day kind of started with
Speaker 4: going into the shop every morning looking at the aerial
Speaker 4: photographs we had for and plans and everything for each
Speaker 4: of the kind of we were working in generally one
Speaker 4: to three whole sort of increments at a time, just
Speaker 4: the way the sort of construction process works. So you know,
Speaker 4: I'd be going in there and double checking and taking
Speaker 4: photos with the cell phone of like exact clusters of
Speaker 4: bunkers and grass lines and sort of gathering every little
Speaker 4: bit of information in detail we could about whatever holes
Speaker 4: we were working on at the time, and then most
Speaker 4: of the rest of the day would be spent in
Speaker 4: the field in the next veador, bulldozer, or helping with
Speaker 4: checking in on the contractors, setting up the next rounded demo,
Speaker 4: shaping bunkers, painting grass lines, you know, kind of everything.
Speaker 1: So the cluster, the bunker clusters are going to be
Speaker 1: something that is really easy for people to see at
Speaker 1: Aronominka and probably the defining characteristic, I would say the
Speaker 1: golf course. It's probably something that most casual golfers would
Speaker 1: walk away with they like those bunkers.
Speaker 3: Is there bunker city I like to call it. Yes.
Speaker 1: Have you seen any any ross course with that type
Speaker 1: of bunker features before? And if you haven't seen any
Speaker 1: ross courses, are there any other Golden Age courses that
Speaker 1: you'd compare to the you know, sheer amount and style
Speaker 1: of bunkers?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 4: Sure, so yeah, there there are other ross courses that
Speaker 4: have a very sort of similar style. You know. I think,
Speaker 4: you know, one of the interesting things I guess about
Speaker 4: aronom Ink and for some of your audiences that the
Speaker 4: style of bunker that was built and that is seen
Speaker 4: in all the aerial photos is different from what was
Speaker 4: originally drawn in the plans and the field sketches right,
Speaker 4: So there is a difference of what was drawn versus
Speaker 4: what was executed in the field, and a lot of
Speaker 4: that is generally attributed to Ross's associate JB. McGovern who
Speaker 4: lived in the area and did some other work that
Speaker 4: has a very sort of similar style as well.
Speaker 3: So you can see that at Jeffersonville is.
Speaker 4: A publicly accessible course in Philly not too far away
Speaker 4: that has a very similar style. You know, there's little
Speaker 4: bits and pieces of it at a lot of different
Speaker 4: Ross courses. You could see there is a you know,
Speaker 4: it's funny. I discovered about a year or so ago
Speaker 4: that there was a Ross and McGovern ld renovation in
Speaker 4: Philly at a at another course called Cedar Brook, and
Speaker 4: all of a sudden they got they the course was
Speaker 4: transformed formed from big sort of ovular oval shapes into
Speaker 4: these crazy puzzle pieces.
Speaker 3: They almost look like sort.
Speaker 4: Of teeth sometimes with all the little tails and sort
Speaker 4: of moo like shapes, all these little little bits of
Speaker 4: fingers and and a lot of sort of clusters ranging
Speaker 4: from two three five. It seems like, you know, I
Speaker 4: always find you know, what they say with planting trees.
Speaker 4: Sometimes odd numbers work best. So there's there's a few
Speaker 4: right there. I think you probably see some of it
Speaker 4: at Oakwin Hills too, you've spent some time up there.
Speaker 1: Those ones are a little bit bigger, they're they're like
Speaker 1: almost like flashed face. They're much different than it's it's
Speaker 1: interesting that with Ross, And do you think it's because
Speaker 1: of the associates and the fact that he wasn't on
Speaker 1: site as but you know, he worked more like a
Speaker 1: modern architect. Do you think it's that's why we see
Speaker 1: such a variety in styles of bunkers at different Ross courses.
Speaker 3: I think so, you know, I think what's happened a
Speaker 3: lot too, is we've sort of.
Speaker 4: Fantasized a lot about this this like and talked about
Speaker 4: the like the sort of typical sort of Ross style,
Speaker 4: right but you know, as Gil will tell you there,
Speaker 4: there really is no typical Ross style. So that again
Speaker 4: sort of goes to the point like you were talking
Speaker 4: about before, is you know why it's so important to
Speaker 4: have the aerial photos so you can put back like
Speaker 4: exactly what was there. But yes, so you know there's
Speaker 4: no typical Ross turtleback greens like you see at Pinehurst everywhere, right,
Speaker 4: those are those are pretty close to a one off,
Speaker 4: but they're very very unique. You know, the greens you
Speaker 4: see at Aeronomy and are much more sort of flowing,
Speaker 4: sort of potato chip like putting surfaces that you see here.
Speaker 4: You see some similar ones at like Mountain Ridge or
Speaker 4: Worcester Harbor's uh probably Glenn's Falls. I've seen some awesome
Speaker 4: photos of that place, but they don't really look like uh.
Speaker 3: Piner's number two. They're so.
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, the typical thing as something that that
Speaker 4: really gets sort of there's you know, this sort of
Speaker 4: cookie cutter thing is is not really represent representative of
Speaker 4: his full body of work. You know, he worked at
Speaker 4: four hundred different places with various associates. His career transformed, right,
Speaker 4: I mean the the stuff up in Boston, like he
Speaker 4: got off a boat and walk or walked miles to
Speaker 4: his you know, his first jobs. I think you know,
Speaker 4: by the time he was he was living most of
Speaker 4: the time that he was down in Pinehurst and traveling
Speaker 4: the entire country. I mean, he was a much different person.
Speaker 4: And you know, styles and evolve, right, We've seen that
Speaker 4: with just every everybody, Right, the more chances he get
Speaker 4: and the more time he spent on site, and then
Speaker 4: he built an entire business. Right was a guy that
Speaker 4: was making clubs and doing golf courses on the side,
Speaker 4: and he basically was like, you know, the biggest biggest
Speaker 4: name in golf.
Speaker 3: By the time he passed, right, it was the biggest
Speaker 3: price right exactly. That's pretty wild.
Speaker 4: So you know, how could they all be exactly sort
Speaker 4: of the same.
Speaker 3: It's just sort of impossible.
Speaker 4: But that's you know, they're all they have some similarities, right,
Speaker 4: You always see like excellent routings, The routings are really
Speaker 4: really really he was, you know, I think you know,
Speaker 4: that's probably his best or sort of most underrated skill,
Speaker 4: and that's why so many of his courses turned out
Speaker 4: so good. And then the more time you spend and
Speaker 4: the more experts you leave on site to worry about
Speaker 4: the details, the better and the better and the better
Speaker 4: they get from there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that the routing and aronomics stood out to me.
Speaker 1: I thought that it was pretty brilliant because I don't
Speaker 1: think you know, Philly's got these really intense sites that
Speaker 1: have these you know, it's almost like very muscular sites
Speaker 1: like where they have these landforms that just like kind
Speaker 1: of you know, move in and out and they're just
Speaker 1: you know, they're like almost not jagged there. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say they're severe, but they're on the places. Yeah, they're
Speaker 1: on places.
Speaker 4: They're like mix of sort of like this kind of
Speaker 4: farmy feel, and then a lot of them have these
Speaker 4: like super deep creeks that have kind of formed in
Speaker 4: the area, and they kind of all have some of
Speaker 4: more heavy soils. And then there's a handful of with
Speaker 4: these like crazy quarries, and you know, not too far
Speaker 4: are from where a lot of these golf courses is
Speaker 4: Valley Forge, right, and that's where like half the golf
Speaker 4: courses in the the East Coast are buying sand from
Speaker 4: these these hits not too far away. So you know,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of different things going on, and some
Speaker 4: are a little bit more so in farm length than others.
Speaker 4: Others can be a little sort of tighter and more
Speaker 4: neighborhood ye and have more you know, these sort of
Speaker 4: waterways and stuff like that. But it's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I felt like Irono Minks was more on the
Speaker 1: subtle side in terms of compared to most in Philly,
Speaker 1: But I thought he really it's a big property, but
Speaker 1: it's so it's so the golf feels so inpact.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all right, it's huge.
Speaker 4: It's huge enough where you can have all the infrastructure
Speaker 4: needed for a gigantic tournament and it you know, it's
Speaker 4: not it fills the space nicely, right, there's not you know,
Speaker 4: there's there's a decent amount of maintained rough out there,
Speaker 4: but there's a good amount of trees. It's not entirely trueless.
Speaker 4: There's you know, some pretty steep hills. There's there's a
Speaker 4: lot going on. It's not cramped, but it's not just
Speaker 4: fast acres in between the holes either. You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 4: So there was originally planned to be an extra nine holes.
Speaker 4: I don't know if it was a you know, clearly
Speaker 4: it turned out to be a full eighteen hole course,
Speaker 4: but you know, would it have been a twenty seven
Speaker 4: seamless It was numbered like when A it had letters
Speaker 4: associated to the other nine, so maybe sort of a
Speaker 4: sort of a secondary routing.
Speaker 3: But so it's it's huge.
Speaker 4: You know, you could probably recover about five or six
Speaker 4: of those holes off in the woods if you if
Speaker 4: you wanted to someday.
Speaker 2: Are did those holes ever get built?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: There was one hole that mostly at least got completed.
Speaker 4: I don't I've never seen a photo of it with
Speaker 4: grass on it, but I think it would have been
Speaker 4: the ninth hole in that course, which runs right next
Speaker 4: to eighteen on the current golf course, and through the
Speaker 4: short game area there was at least shaped at one point,
Speaker 4: maybe a practice hole or something.
Speaker 1: With you spending so much time on site, what was
Speaker 1: I always think, you know, you pick up more and
Speaker 1: more stuff, and what was like one little thing that
Speaker 1: just wowed you that you might have recognized a few
Speaker 1: months into the project.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think it probably wasn't even a
Speaker 4: few months. It was probably within the first two or
Speaker 4: three holes. I think one of the really cool moments
Speaker 4: was working with Jim Wagner out there, and he was
Speaker 4: really really good at sort of teaching me different ways
Speaker 4: to sort of Vic's. You know, we're rebuilding all of
Speaker 4: the bunkers and restoring them to all the same locations
Speaker 4: that they were originally in and doing a super accurate
Speaker 4: job with that. But you know, I think what makes
Speaker 4: you know, we set some restoration work apart from the
Speaker 4: others is sort of helping things, you know, feel really old, even.
Speaker 3: Though everything.
Speaker 4: Is new, and so he was really good about helping
Speaker 4: me find little details in the shaping about, you know,
Speaker 4: doing things like, you know, we just spent all this time.
Speaker 4: Say you're on a green side bunker removing all years
Speaker 4: and years and years of sand splash. But some of
Speaker 4: the sand splash is what kind of makes you know,
Speaker 4: extra sort of waves and contours and bulges and some
Speaker 4: of the bunkers. So you know, it's kind of it
Speaker 4: makes it look like it's been used, and so you know,
Speaker 4: you can take all the sort of new materials and
Speaker 4: pack it in nice and sort of help it sort
Speaker 4: of get back to that same shape, and then do
Speaker 4: other things like you know, maybe you know, you just
Speaker 4: sort of tell yourself a little bit of a story
Speaker 4: in your mind as you're working. You know, maybe you
Speaker 4: know people have been walking in through these one or
Speaker 4: two little places in the bunkers where you know, it
Speaker 4: kind of seems to make sense wherever you are, and
Speaker 4: then doing things to sort of exaggerate how you know,
Speaker 4: maybe people beat this one or two little channels down
Speaker 4: into sort of the shaping, and you know, little other
Speaker 4: things like like if everybody's hitting out of the same
Speaker 4: one or two places maybe those get a little bit
Speaker 4: higher over time or something like that, and you just
Speaker 4: try to add that last little kind of five or
Speaker 4: ten percent in the detailing. And that's I think what
Speaker 4: sort of takes it from some of that sort of
Speaker 4: even that sort of typical kind of feeling like we
Speaker 4: talked before, to something that's really really really feels all
Speaker 4: kind of as soon as as soon as you can
Speaker 4: given that, you know, you're putting brand new sand, brand
Speaker 4: new sad, doing all sorts of different riders and things
Speaker 4: like that into it. So it's you know, a very
Speaker 4: sort of straight process. You're going from A to B
Speaker 4: in exactly what the photos show you. But if you
Speaker 4: can do some of these other little tricks to help
Speaker 4: it age and be really really efficient, you know, those
Speaker 4: are the types of things you learn working from working
Speaker 4: with Jim especially, he's the best at that.
Speaker 1: I like restorations that try and make it look old
Speaker 1: like I mean, one of the I thought the cool
Speaker 1: things about the wing foot restoration was that they use
Speaker 1: the same grass on the greens, like you didn't get
Speaker 1: brand new grass on the greens. Like it gives it
Speaker 1: a little bit of you know, it's you're restoring it
Speaker 1: and trying to restore it back to nineteen twenty eight
Speaker 1: and an Irono mans case. So you should want it
Speaker 1: to come out of it, out of the restoration and
Speaker 1: look at you know, there are things you can't avoid,
Speaker 1: like obviously like you the same, but.
Speaker 4: Sure, but you know, but even with the sand, if
Speaker 4: you look at the little sort of mounds with sandy
Speaker 4: pits that are on the side.
Speaker 2: Of ten, yeah, is different thing.
Speaker 3: So John Goslin was really good.
Speaker 4: You know, that's not exactly the same bunker stand that's
Speaker 4: in the rest of the bunkers. You know, he really
Speaker 4: spent you know, we we tried to do some things
Speaker 4: over there that would really make it, you know, a
Speaker 4: little bit dirtier, a little bit uh more scruffy. It
Speaker 4: doesn't have all the liners or the drainage or stuff
Speaker 4: like that. It's it's a little bit different. And uh yeah,
Speaker 4: he loves it exactly and he's he's been working on
Speaker 4: the finding the right balance over there for for years.
Speaker 3: He's you know, he's sort of very very sort.
Speaker 4: Of old school with that, and he the tees also
Speaker 4: are something that I think will kind of help it
Speaker 4: feel old, right, You're not going to feel like you're
Speaker 4: playing on you know, five different sets of these perfectly
Speaker 4: squared edge tees, all going highest at the back down
Speaker 4: to you know the member tees and forward and you
Speaker 4: know such and such. They're these super cool, uh free
Speaker 4: form teas. Then that's really as you can see in
Speaker 4: the areas, it looks like there's a second set of greens.
Speaker 3: There, and that's that's. Uh, those are the t's which
Speaker 3: are pretty wild.
Speaker 4: So you know, hopefully I don't know if they're going
Speaker 4: to let your your blimp or you're drone up there
Speaker 4: for some some aerial views this week, but if you'll
Speaker 4: be wondering what those extra extra teas are or extra greens.
Speaker 1: But the freeform t's are like an in vogue thing
Speaker 1: in architecture now. But even in twenty eight that wasn't
Speaker 1: a widely used feature, right, I.
Speaker 4: Think, uh, you know, you didn't really see them. You know,
Speaker 4: most people draw them as rectangles even back then. But
Speaker 4: I think every once in a while, uh, it certainly happened,
Speaker 4: you know, certainly you see more of the like connected
Speaker 4: stuff from my greens into teas where it just was
Speaker 4: a little bit easier.
Speaker 3: To turn stuff back then.
Speaker 4: But you know, there's there's a few in the area too.
Speaker 4: You know, Marian was pretty famous for for some of
Speaker 4: that as well, so you know maybe uh that inspired
Speaker 4: a little bit over aeronomy back then too.
Speaker 3: Who knows what?
Speaker 1: Uh you worked grounds during the BMW a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, didn't you help out?
Speaker 4: I did a ridgewood the two weeks prior, actually, Uh.
Speaker 3: I spent I spent some time with John and the
Speaker 3: guys over there.
Speaker 4: I mostly just bringing them beer for for making all
Speaker 4: the work look good. Uh. You know those those guys
Speaker 4: are you know you don't want me mowing. I'm much
Speaker 4: better with the big yellow stuff. I uh, you know
Speaker 4: you don't want me trying to.
Speaker 3: I'll just mess the stuff up.
Speaker 2: The smaller the machine, the worse you got.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can rate breaking would be good?
Speaker 2: What uh?
Speaker 1: In terms of that that championship, obviously you spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time there, the conditions weren't ideal. What what
Speaker 1: would you be looking for? The weather looks great this
Speaker 1: week with the with the women. What are you particularly
Speaker 1: keen to watch with the women's game? At aeronomy, the.
Speaker 4: Biggest thing is going to be the lower trajectory shots
Speaker 4: that are bouncing into what should be pretty firm greens here.
Speaker 4: We've had pretty good weather, you know, basically through the
Speaker 4: US Open at at Wingfoot, so it you know, we've
Speaker 4: got a couple of little days of rain here or there,
Speaker 4: but nothing super terrible at least since that that big
Speaker 4: tropical storm went through a couples ago that did a
Speaker 4: lot of damage in the area. But I think it's
Speaker 4: going to be the ladies that play the lower shots
Speaker 4: and watching, you know, how they react on the really
Speaker 4: cool sort of potato chip like greens, and how they
Speaker 4: can use some of the slopes to feedballs closer. You know,
Speaker 4: if they put the pin on the back right of
Speaker 4: three or twelve, you can hit it if you know,
Speaker 4: use the central sort of spines on these things and
Speaker 4: feed them to the corners. You know, that's something we
Speaker 4: definitely didn't see when the guys were hitting it. You know,
Speaker 4: three ten carries plugging, cleaning the ball and just hitting
Speaker 4: pitching wedge, you know, to write at it. So hopefully,
Speaker 4: hopefully the course shows off a little bit better like that,
Speaker 4: because that's how you know, it was designed. It was
Speaker 4: designed for the members, and that's it was restored as
Speaker 4: authentic as possible so the members could enjoy that. You know,
Speaker 4: super authentic russ, you know, fast firm, you know of
Speaker 4: course that you know, I can't I can't imagine hitting
Speaker 4: the wedge into fifteen in that semi punch bowl like thing.
Speaker 4: But if some of the you know, ladies are kind
Speaker 4: of more like me hitting a sort of a longer
Speaker 4: iron or something like that in there, you can kind
Speaker 4: of sling it in over the bunker on the right
Speaker 4: and see how far back you can chase it, you know.
Speaker 1: So what are a few other holes you mentioned three
Speaker 1: and twelve, What are a few other holes that you.
Speaker 2: Are your favorites out there?
Speaker 4: The two, seven, and eleven trio kind of all in
Speaker 4: a row over there on probably the most extreme portion
Speaker 4: of the property. It's not really a surprise that Ross
Speaker 4: routed three greens on, you know, the best feature and
Speaker 4: then play the three holes directly right back off of it,
Speaker 4: and he kept coming back to it. So a pretty
Speaker 4: kind of cool Golden Age sort of routing characteristic there.
Speaker 4: And then two's got the really cool sort of skyline
Speaker 4: green effect going. It's a shorter part four with a
Speaker 4: pretty kind of wild green and some massive, massive bunkers
Speaker 4: off the tee, which is certainly a nice Welcome to
Speaker 4: bunker City, as I went to call it. You know,
Speaker 4: seven is not quite as heavily bunkered as most of
Speaker 4: the rest of the holes, but it it's again another
Speaker 4: sort of shorter part for with the fairway just running straight,
Speaker 4: you know, kind of away from you, so you kind
Speaker 4: of have to pick a position and figure out where
Speaker 4: you want to play from and then uh, you kind
Speaker 4: of flick a pitch up onto like a perch perch green.
Speaker 4: It's again sort of hanging on the horizon there.
Speaker 3: Uh. You know, I wouldn't.
Speaker 4: Be a proper Friday egg pot if we didn't tell
Speaker 4: Johnny's got to get back there and cut the cut
Speaker 4: the large trees down behind some of those and clear
Speaker 4: them out a little bit more.
Speaker 1: And I was surprised flying around. I was like, God,
Speaker 1: what are these trees doing here?
Speaker 4: You know, I've been bugging bugging them for you know,
Speaker 4: John guilt for years about that stuff.
Speaker 3: But you know that's why.
Speaker 4: You know, they're the.
Speaker 3: Architect and I was.
Speaker 4: I was just the sort of shaper on that on
Speaker 4: that project, but you know that's how it goes.
Speaker 3: And then eleven, which is you know, right right.
Speaker 4: Again next to those holes, is the hole with the
Speaker 4: most bunkers on the course. It's definitely the most I
Speaker 4: think probably visually appealing. I think most people would agree
Speaker 4: with that. And it's got twenty bunkers on it. It's
Speaker 4: got a very very very severe green where we tried
Speaker 4: to you know, increase two of the you know, pin
Speaker 4: positions on it and the front left and the front
Speaker 4: right actually to try to give them another place or
Speaker 4: two to put the hole. And you know, it's funny,
Speaker 4: it's the most bunkered hole out there. And there's still
Speaker 4: two more missing from the nineteen twenty nine photo that
Speaker 4: we based everything off of, which pretty wild. There was
Speaker 4: another one further up on the hillside behind and on
Speaker 4: the cluster on the right approach there is a fifth,
Speaker 4: but that's right where a sort of cart maintenance path
Speaker 4: is kind of where the so you kind of couldn't
Speaker 4: restore that one and you block out all the access.
Speaker 4: So but you know, we kind of shaped in like
Speaker 4: a kind of ghosty depression in there as well. So, uh,
Speaker 4: it was, it was definitely there, and you just kind
Speaker 4: of have like a little ghost feature for it, if
Speaker 4: you know, every one day when the hover hover mowtors
Speaker 4: and stuff like that, are you know, flying around the
Speaker 4: GPS mowers and you don't need the don't need any
Speaker 4: more car.
Speaker 1: Pass Yeah, that's uh, you probably still need them for
Speaker 1: wet days, fair enough. You always needed the cart paths
Speaker 1: for those for the wet days. Unless you're on sand, well.
Speaker 4: There's no there's no real car pass out there. There's
Speaker 4: there's only little maintenancee trails and some turnarounds and stuff.
Speaker 4: So you know the back to the future version of
Speaker 4: golf course maddance.
Speaker 1: Mate, Yeah, that you hit on a couple of holes
Speaker 1: of like fifteen and seven are so deep.
Speaker 2: I think I compare.
Speaker 1: The the property to like a bathroom sink. I feel
Speaker 1: like you're either pretty neat playing on a counter top
Speaker 1: like along it, or then you're plunging in or coming out.
Speaker 1: But then there are a few holes that play along
Speaker 1: the bowl of the sink which are I mean, like
Speaker 1: seven is a perfect example where like there's no way
Speaker 1: you can get flat lies there. And then I think
Speaker 1: what will be neat with the course playing firmer is
Speaker 1: we're going to actually see the balls propel off the fairway,
Speaker 1: like where if you don't hit if it's canting right
Speaker 1: to left, if you don't hit it on the right
Speaker 1: half of the fairway, You're probably not going to find
Speaker 1: the fairway.
Speaker 3: I hope.
Speaker 4: So you know, the one thing I look to see
Speaker 4: is it's very wide, there's no doubt. So I'll be
Speaker 4: curious to see how many of the fairways the ladies
Speaker 4: do miss, because they are very very very accurate as well.
Speaker 4: So we'll see if the full firmness and you know,
Speaker 4: the full sort of strategy of laying these things on
Speaker 4: the ground and uh, you know, making some money uneven
Speaker 4: lies and a few of these holes along your your
Speaker 4: rim there. Uh, if it works out, you know, they're
Speaker 4: they're not going to miss the fairly on nine, that
Speaker 4: thing is uh super wide. Uh, They're they're probably not,
Speaker 4: you know, so we'll see, you know, I'll be curious
Speaker 4: to see where they how they hit it over six.
Speaker 4: You know, the guys really just annihilated the strategy on
Speaker 4: like a whole like six, carrying it so far over
Speaker 4: the bunkers that you know were once thought like they
Speaker 4: were going to be in play, and they were, you know,
Speaker 4: mostly in afterthoughts. So I'll be curious to see where
Speaker 4: they have the ladies playing from on on a hole
Speaker 4: like that, And if they have to deal with the
Speaker 4: cluster for crossbunkers like I do.
Speaker 1: Yes, the they I think one of the things we
Speaker 1: might see is them being able to play the angles
Speaker 1: because of the width, and then how accurate they are,
Speaker 1: right okay where men men. We don't necessarily see that
Speaker 1: because they you know, they don't need them as much
Speaker 1: at a course that they can just overpower, but be
Speaker 1: you know, they oh, well that that it has it
Speaker 1: going with the driver, I mean they can fit it
Speaker 1: into some tight windows, you.
Speaker 4: Know, right, So we'll see where they hit it on
Speaker 4: thirteen where you know, it's got an interesting sort of
Speaker 4: layup component again with cluster bunkers right in the in
Speaker 4: the kind of general landing zone at least previously conceived.
Speaker 4: And then it's got a pretty wild green that can
Speaker 4: cause probably the most three putts on the course, at
Speaker 4: least if you were looking at shot link data from
Speaker 4: like the old at and t's there, and that's another
Speaker 4: one that's kind of along the rim of the property.
Speaker 3: You know, I what other good ones for those? You know,
Speaker 3: we'll see where they hit it on two as well.
Speaker 4: Do they try to hit it over the bunkers, did
Speaker 4: they play all the way out to the right edge
Speaker 4: and then.
Speaker 2: It could change day to day depending on the pin.
Speaker 3: It was interesting.
Speaker 4: I my understanding was previous to the BMW, it was
Speaker 4: nine was like only reachable for like two guys in
Speaker 4: the tournament. Prior it was like Dustin Johnson and Tiger
Speaker 4: or something like that were like the only two people
Speaker 4: in the field to reach it. But even in the
Speaker 4: after teas went back and back as far as you could.
Speaker 4: And they've kind of cool shared combo teas with seventeen
Speaker 4: over there, which is pretty neat.
Speaker 3: We'll see how they set that one up to.
Speaker 4: But you know, the wadies don't have to go all
Speaker 4: the way back there for nine, there's no doubt. But
Speaker 4: we'll see if it's it's it's reachable in two for them,
Speaker 4: or if it's a full three shot part three going
Speaker 4: up the hill. You know, when Ian Poulter is easily
Speaker 4: getting there in two At the last BMW, it was
Speaker 4: I mean.
Speaker 3: Right, you know, you just put your.
Speaker 4: Hand on We don't know.
Speaker 1: What do you as a young architect, you know, depending
Speaker 1: on what happens with distance, what are you what do
Speaker 1: you think about just everything going on? I mean we're
Speaker 1: ten years from now when you might be designing your
Speaker 1: own courses.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it was certainly interesting to see.
Speaker 4: You know, we thought you were going pretty far back
Speaker 4: for a lot of these holes are about as far
Speaker 4: back as you could on a lot of them, and
Speaker 4: they had a decent number, you know, it was not
Speaker 4: like we didn't know it was coming.
Speaker 3: And they carried them by ten.
Speaker 4: It seemed like overnight and a change from the previous thought. So,
Speaker 4: you know, I do kind of you know, I'm well,
Speaker 4: if you just made them all six thousand yards and
Speaker 4: then it would negate right, Brison could drive everything, but
Speaker 4: it would be with a iron where you know, someone
Speaker 4: like me could even drive it with the drive, you know,
Speaker 4: so I would even out. I don't know, then it
Speaker 4: doesn't it takes the importance off of that stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that, because if you the distance
Speaker 1: gains importance the longer it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the shorter is.
Speaker 1: It's still an advantage, but it's not overwhelming. It's not
Speaker 1: an overwhelming advantage. Yeah, because if.
Speaker 4: I have the guy that can still get at the closest,
Speaker 4: not the furthest sort of.
Speaker 1: The advantage of being fifty yards away versus one hundred
Speaker 1: yards away is much smaller than the advantage of being
Speaker 1: one fifty.
Speaker 2: Versus two hundred.
Speaker 3: Yep, I get it.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, that's that'll be a fun thing
Speaker 1: to watch with with the women. This week too is
Speaker 1: like how far do you push up because you know
Speaker 1: you can't get as much spin on certain shots with these,
Speaker 1: you know, or you get more spinning. It'll be this week's.
Speaker 2: Gonna be a fun watch. I think that's one of
Speaker 2: my favorite.
Speaker 1: My most excited term is when the schedule came out
Speaker 1: this year and then Reed came out. I was just
Speaker 1: happy to playing this week and perfect time we play
Speaker 1: in Philly, way better than if it was in the
Speaker 1: middle of the summer like it was supposed to be.
Speaker 3: Just yeah, it's exciting.
Speaker 4: Maybe you get a little bit of colors in the
Speaker 4: leaves should be nice and firm, and uh, you know
Speaker 4: it's school. They're coming off two ross courses in a row.
Speaker 4: They were just at the Cbu Bay as well.
Speaker 1: It's pretty neat better, better time to play there for
Speaker 1: sure than the middle of summer.
Speaker 4: That's winter golf. I go there in the winter for
Speaker 4: that one. But West Buggy is perfect, No, it's great.
Speaker 4: So you know, they looked like they were playing from
Speaker 4: pretty far back on a fel of those holes, so
Speaker 4: we'll see how you.
Speaker 3: Set it up.
Speaker 1: Are what are your favorite places for winter golf in uh?
Speaker 1: In Atlantic City as a as a Jersey guy.
Speaker 4: That one's up there and that's it's pretty far right.
Speaker 4: That's Atlantic City. Atlantic City Country Club is always up
Speaker 4: there as well. You know that was historically one of
Speaker 4: the great places to play in the winter. You've got
Speaker 4: all sorts of famous characters from golf history that we
Speaker 4: went down there to play. Great Bay is at cool
Speaker 4: Willie Park Junior just even a little bit south of there.
Speaker 4: If he went further up the shore. Sun Eagles is
Speaker 4: that doing hasse that I've mentioned before. That's about an
Speaker 4: hour outside New York City versus two going all the
Speaker 4: way south. There's not too much great public access in
Speaker 4: between them. But there's some cool private clubs too along
Speaker 4: the area as well.
Speaker 3: We got the Waltha.
Speaker 4: Travis's Hollywood is not you know it on the shore
Speaker 4: as well, and that's got two hundred plus bunkers as well.
Speaker 3: If you're looking for another their bunker Bunker City.
Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking of what I asked you about.
Speaker 1: As I was thinking of Hollywood probably would fit the
Speaker 1: fit the bill as a as a bunker city.
Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely. He's got to discount the one with fifty
Speaker 4: seven or whatever. But it's still up there.
Speaker 3: So it's cool.
Speaker 1: See that's like it's like the springfield. There can be
Speaker 1: multiple bunker cities, you know, because there's springfields in all
Speaker 1: these different states. You know, Illinois, Missouri, Massachusetts have springfields.
Speaker 1: You know, there could be a bunch of bunker cities.
Speaker 3: Perfect. I like it, you know it, it stuits it.
Speaker 3: You know, it's amazing.
Speaker 4: There were there were like twenty more bunkers out there
Speaker 4: back in the daya than there are now too.
Speaker 1: So you know, Ravslow in Chicago was a quasi bunker
Speaker 1: city originally, but you know today you wouldn't know it
Speaker 1: because it's been kind of neglected and.
Speaker 3: About whistling straits or.
Speaker 1: I don't think that really counts whistlings. They're half those
Speaker 1: bunkers are just out in space, outer space. You know,
Speaker 1: nobody even knows does waste area count as bunker You know,
Speaker 1: DJ would have to weigh in on that one, right, you.
Speaker 3: Know, I still use the word hazard, so I'm not
Speaker 3: the guy to ask.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, hey, thanks for coming on you got
Speaker 1: anything excited going on in your life? You know, other
Speaker 1: than getting married. You know you're you're taking man now.
Speaker 1: But uh, what you got anything exciting on the workfront.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we have a couple new exciting projects to be
Speaker 4: I'm going to be working on this fall.
Speaker 3: You know. They range from uh a cool new.
Speaker 4: Short game area to uh developing some few new holes
Speaker 4: of of plans uh to do ah, you know, some
Speaker 4: restoration work at Manhattan Woods. Uh uh not too far
Speaker 4: from me here, just north of the George Washington Bridge,
Speaker 4: and then another Donald Ross course as well.
Speaker 2: All right, thanks Jeger.
Speaker 1: Everybody can follow you on Instagram at Proper Golf and
Speaker 1: occasional occasional correspondent on Friday.
Speaker 2: Thanks for writing and everything.
Speaker 1: But we'll have you on again and look forward to
Speaker 1: watching Ironomic this week.
Speaker 3: You got it man.
Speaker 4: Glad you made it down there a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 4: and glad to add a little more here.
Speaker 3: It's great. The chat