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Speaker 1: Hello, listeners, It's Caitlin and Jamie from the future. Sure,

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Speaker 1: and we're just popping in with a note about this episode,

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Speaker 1: which is that we recorded and released it before Elliott

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Speaker 1: Page came out as a trans man. So if you

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Speaker 1: listen to the episode in the present day, it may

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Speaker 1: sound like we are misgendering Elliott and dead naming them.

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Speaker 1: So that might seem kind of jarring and careless, but again,

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Speaker 1: it's just that we were not to know at the

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Speaker 1: time of this episode's recording. Yeah, that is just something

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Speaker 1: we want to make you aware of.

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Speaker 2: If we don't want to jump scare jump scare you

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Speaker 2: with it. So yeah, because of when this episode was recorded,

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Speaker 2: we are unvirtually using a dead name because we did

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Speaker 2: not yet know. And with that, here's the episode on

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Speaker 2: the Big Podcast.

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Speaker 3: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are

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Speaker 3: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they

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Speaker 3: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing

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Speaker 3: it with the Bechdel cast.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Caitln, Yes, Jamie BA, do you ever think well

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Speaker 2: that we might not be podcasting at all?

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Speaker 1: Are we in a dream?

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Speaker 4: Bra?

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Speaker 2: And then we like look and then you look over,

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Speaker 2: like your shoulder all sexy, and you're like, it's a dream,

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Speaker 2: and then I go, no B. And that's basically the movie. Folks,

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Speaker 2: that's the whole more or less. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: All due respect to Hans Zimmer This like you have

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Speaker 2: to imagine. Christopher Nolan was like, I just want the

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Speaker 2: soundtrack to sound like a large electronic fart because it's

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Speaker 2: so like, it's just it's overwhelming. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast.

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Speaker 1: Yes, this is the Bechdel Cast, in which, well, hello,

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Speaker 1: I'm Caitlin, I'm Jamie, and we examine movies through an

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Speaker 1: intersectional feminist lens with.

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Speaker 2: As little sound effects as possible. We pull from. We

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Speaker 2: use the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion,

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Speaker 2: pulling from a media metric invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel,

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Speaker 2: sometimes referred to as the Bechdel Wallace test, that requires,

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Speaker 2: for our purposes, that two people love a marginalized gender

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Speaker 2: talk about something with each other. They also have to

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Speaker 2: have names, and they talk about something that's other than

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Speaker 2: a sisman for more than two lines of dialogue. I

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Speaker 2: have to be honest, Okay, we're also covering inception today.

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Speaker 2: I was so, I was like, it's probably a no

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Speaker 2: for this one, but I was surprised.

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Speaker 5: But well, yeah, well yeah, I guess it's it's to

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Speaker 5: all of our to all of our listeners who aren't

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Speaker 5: actually listeners, who think we just talk about whether it

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Speaker 5: passes the Bechdel test or not, that's incorrect.

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Speaker 2: But I was pleasantly surprised. I'm like, does Ellen Page

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Speaker 2: talk to Maryan Cotyard at any time?

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Speaker 1: The answer?

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Speaker 2: But then I also have I have that answer, but

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Speaker 2: then I also have a counter argument. That's a whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Oh sure, yeah, same.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about inception today. We are okay, okay, I'm

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Speaker 2: wondering if we hit on the same thing. I'm just

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Speaker 2: like getting a big Jumanji energy from all of this.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, Jumanji, the new one.

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Speaker 1: Wait, in what way? What do you mean in the

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Speaker 1: way that we.

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Speaker 2: Had that discussion about Jack Black and Jumanji, I have

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Speaker 2: sort of a similar feeling about marrying Coatillard an inception.

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Speaker 1: On it, right, because her character is actually, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: a projection.

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Speaker 2: Of a man. Yeah, Like, I don't know if that

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Speaker 2: counts as a female character because he says to her like,

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Speaker 2: you're not you, You're me. So I'm like, okay, it

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Speaker 2: seems like it's been confirmed in text very I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is this is like I was really I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I had to go on a walk.

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Speaker 1: Well also, I mean, and we'll talk about this, but like,

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Speaker 1: how little does he think of his wife? His wife

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Speaker 1: if his projections of her behave the way that she

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Speaker 1: does because she's like the villain of the movie. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about it.

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Speaker 2: She is, Yeah, she's a horror and then at the

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Speaker 2: end he kind of like ret console thing. He's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of really remembering you falsely and exclusively at

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Speaker 2: your worst. So right, that's kind of on me. And

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Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, I would say that that is definitely

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Speaker 2: on you. But don't worry. Ellen Page is there to

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Speaker 2: just constantly be like you're great. Oh. And that's her character,

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Speaker 2: h the redeemer and the projection. This is what we

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Speaker 2: have to work with with inception people. This is what

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Speaker 2: we have to work with. Yes, So what is your

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Speaker 2: experience with inception, Caitlin?

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Speaker 1: I saw it in theaters in twenty ten. I think,

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Speaker 1: like many people quite enjoyed it. It was hailed as

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Speaker 1: being you know, one of the smartest and most profound

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Speaker 1: movies of the decade for a while, and I was

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Speaker 1: admittedly fully on board that ship for quite some time.

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Speaker 1: And then I don't remember exactly when this happened, but

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Speaker 1: I felt like there was some kind of cultural shift

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Speaker 1: where a lot of people were like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: maybe Exception isn't as awesome and as smart as we

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Speaker 1: thought it was. Maybe it's actually kind of silly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And then I also midway through the decade, I

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Speaker 2: feel like there was kind of this mass. I wonder

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Speaker 2: if it was like when it hits streaming or something,

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Speaker 2: but there was kind of, yeah, like a mass, like

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Speaker 2: hold on, I just rewatched Inception for the first time

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Speaker 2: since twenty ten, and it's silly, right.

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Speaker 1: And I also, you know, boarded that ship for a while.

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Speaker 1: But I have then jumped on These are deliberate Titanic references.

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Speaker 1: I have jumped off.

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Speaker 2: Of that ho k.

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Speaker 1: I have jumped off of that door and climbed back

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Speaker 1: onto the sinking Titanic of Inception being a good movie.

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Speaker 1: And I am firmly in that camp again. And when

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Speaker 1: I say that it is extremely pretentious, it is so

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Speaker 1: far up its own ass.

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Speaker 2: But it's like at some point in like I feel

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Speaker 2: like not to movie blame, but at this point, if

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Speaker 2: you're going to a Christopher Nolan moved and leaving like

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Speaker 2: that was so pretentious. It's like, at this point he's

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Speaker 2: made eleven movies. You gotta if you're showing up, you

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Speaker 2: gotta be ready for a pretentious thing to happen. Like

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Speaker 2: It's true, there's no I would argue, there's really no

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Speaker 2: excuse at this point to not know that Christopher Nolan

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Speaker 2: makes some of the most pretentious stuff in the game.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we've been on kind of a similar

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Speaker 2: ish journey with it where I saw it. This movie

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Speaker 2: came out, they I think, I don't know, they're either

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Speaker 2: like the year Yeah, I guess it would be like

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Speaker 2: shortly before I went to college, because imagine going to

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Speaker 2: film school right after this movie came out, like oh,

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Speaker 2: just droves of eighteen year old boys that are just

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Speaker 2: like I'm gonna make my inception and like just I

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Speaker 2: mean students of all genders. But you know, I would

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Speaker 2: I would argue a male heavy group that were just like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, like just just really very into inception.

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Speaker 2: I definitely liked it. I thought it was really smart.

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Speaker 2: I saw it in three D and I got a

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Speaker 2: headache the first time, so then I had to see

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Speaker 2: it a second time in two D and I really

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Speaker 2: liked it that the second time. The first time, I

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Speaker 2: was like, I have a migraine, but I really liked it.

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Speaker 2: And then, similar to you, I saw it kind of

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Speaker 2: midway through the decade after, and then I think I

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Speaker 2: had soured to it because I was in film school

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Speaker 2: when all the eighteen year old boys were really frothing

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Speaker 2: at the mouth regarding Christopher Nolan sure, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: love that. So I think I soured towards it kind

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Speaker 2: of early, but then every and then I realized. And

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Speaker 2: then I think midway through the decade, I'm like, this

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Speaker 2: movie is such a waste of Mary and Cootyard because

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Speaker 2: I saw Levianne Rose, which she won her Oscar for,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, oh my god, she is so talented.

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Speaker 2: How did Christopher Nolan like hire her after she like

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Speaker 2: did a performance like that and then gave her this role.

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Speaker 2: But in any case, rewatching it, I watched it a

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Speaker 2: month ago before we decided we were doing this just

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Speaker 2: for fun, and it's I guess it's it's a variation

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Speaker 2: on a romp. It's a pretentious romp. Yes, I think

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Speaker 2: it's like a very heady romp.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I would agree with that. It's extremely watchable. It

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Speaker 1: is too long for shorts two and a half hours,

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Speaker 1: and that's just offensive. But I I do really appreciate

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Speaker 1: the world building as far as like a script goes.

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Speaker 1: It's a pretty you know, it's potentially confusing the whole

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Speaker 1: dream within a dream, million layers of dreams thing, you know.

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Speaker 1: I I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I also appreciate it, like you can enjoy this. I

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Speaker 2: can say from personal experience, you can enjoy this movie

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Speaker 2: without fully understanding exactly what's going on, yes, and still

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Speaker 2: just be like, Okay, that could have been a plot hole.

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Speaker 2: I could have missed something, but like, well, I guess

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Speaker 2: they're all wearing white now like that. I don't know

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Speaker 2: why that reveal has always made laugh when they cut

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Speaker 2: to like everyone's in the snow and everyone's wearing white,

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Speaker 2: and its just like watching it this time, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I feel like Kanye West's like Property in Wyoming is

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Speaker 2: like this where everyone's just like wearing the same outfit

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Speaker 2: and it's huge and kind of scary. Yeah, but it's

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Speaker 2: just like, I don't know, it's so over the top.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate. I really like the practical effects in this movie.

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Speaker 1: Great practical effects.

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Speaker 2: I love the cast, except for Joseph Gordon Levitt.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I like him.

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Speaker 2: I think I see. I think that what has aged

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Speaker 2: the worst about this movie are it's it's treatment of

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Speaker 2: gender and casting Joseph Gordon Levitt in a large role.

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Speaker 2: I'm just kind of done with him. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what it was that turned me on Joseph Gordon Levitt,

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Speaker 2: but I'm like, he was in everything for five years

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Speaker 2: and then he kind of was like where'd he go?

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Speaker 2: But then I was like, I guess I just haven't

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Speaker 2: been I haven't asked myself that question. But he was

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Speaker 2: in everything. He was in every genre, and he was

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Speaker 2: so chatty, and I was just like, I need a break.

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Speaker 1: I understand that. Yeah. I mean to me, there's there's

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Speaker 1: a lot to like about this movie in terms of

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Speaker 1: pure entertainment value. I'm not watching it because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I want to see strong representation of women because you

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Speaker 1: certainly won't find that no here, But.

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Speaker 2: But I do I love that. Do you remember what

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Speaker 2: a big deal it was that Ellen Page was in

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Speaker 2: this movie. This was like kind of Ellen Page's like

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Speaker 2: cinematic glow up, like she'd never been in like a

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Speaker 2: gigantic movie like this before. I remember being really excited

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Speaker 2: about that.

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Speaker 1: Right because this was post Juno, Right. But Juna wasn't

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Speaker 1: like a huge blockbuster hit kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Right, she She was kind of an indie darling for

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Speaker 2: a long time, and then this was kind of her

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Speaker 2: and I guess kind of for Mary and KOTR two

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Speaker 2: in terms of like big American movies, right, this was

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Speaker 2: her like huge spotlight too, So that's at least good. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't I'm reaching, but I still enjoy watching it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: even when I had kind of soured on it, I

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Speaker 2: still enjoyed watching it, I have to admit so. And

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Speaker 2: I honestly I like, Okay, just to quickly address right

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Speaker 2: at the top, all of the ichy news items being

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Speaker 2: bandied about about Christopher Nolan just about the way he

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Speaker 2: treats his workers sounds absolutely atrocious. Did you see that

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Speaker 2: news item that was like Christopher Nolan tells his employees

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Speaker 2: they're not allowed to sit down for thirteen hours, And

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Speaker 2: you're like, well, that's certainly uneth right, like he has

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Speaker 2: a and I feel like this kind of even before

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Speaker 2: we talk about the movie, this is such a problem

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Speaker 2: with I would say, largely male outeur directors, where while

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Speaker 2: it is genuinely cool and amazing, like we were just saying,

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Speaker 2: to kind of see a person with a vision that

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Speaker 2: has carte blanche in terms of money, like that very

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Speaker 2: rarely happens, but when it does, it always happens to

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Speaker 2: white men. But like yep, in any case. But the

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Speaker 2: fact that on top of that, it's just like every

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Speaker 2: with little exception, like all the stories you hear about

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Speaker 2: these types of directors, they're just ego tripping, you know,

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Speaker 2: over their own ego dick or whatever, Like it's just it.

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Speaker 2: It is really frustrating to hear. And also the fact

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Speaker 2: that he was so he was like, we have to

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Speaker 2: release Tenet in the middle of a pandemic. I don't care.

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Speaker 2: I have no regard for human life, which you already

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Speaker 2: made clear by the fact that his employees aren't allowed

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Speaker 2: to sit down, which is unethical, which is ablest, which

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Speaker 2: is on and on and on big systemic issues with

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Speaker 2: the film industry. So we're not I think we've made

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Speaker 2: this clear in our dark Night episode is well, we

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Speaker 2: are not vouching for Christopher Nolan. He sounds like a

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Speaker 2: complete asshole, right, I just and and it, and I'm

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Speaker 2: just like, God, damn it, why are the movies fun?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's very frustrating. His movies are very I'm excited.

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Speaker 2: To see Tenant, so am I see it? I pissed off.

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Speaker 2: I'm so annoyed. I'm like, oh, I love John David Washington,

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Speaker 2: and I want to see Kenneth Bronna play a Russian villain, Like,

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Speaker 2: oh my ah, yeah, yeah, it sounds fun.

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Speaker 1: I'll see it.

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Speaker 2: I just it pisses me off. It's like you hate

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Speaker 2: to see it, but then also in your heart of heart,

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Speaker 2: you kind of love to see it. And I really

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Speaker 2: hope that Warner Brothers starts to force him to treat

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Speaker 2: his employees ethically. You know, Yes, I have infinite trust

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Speaker 2: of a large corporation like Warner Brothers. I'm sure they'll

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Speaker 2: do the right thing. Oh, of course, one when haven't

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Speaker 2: they don't. Yeah, don't check the receipts on that one.

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Speaker 2: In any case, Fuck Christopher Nolan. But unfortunately we enjoy

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Speaker 2: watching his movies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, his sensibilities are like extremely in my wheelhouse because

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Speaker 1: he's usually doing yuh. I mean this movie is a

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Speaker 1: like action sci fi heist movie, which is like extremely

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Speaker 1: like up my Alley.

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Speaker 2: I was reading about and I was just like, oh,

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Speaker 2: because I mean, I feel like he has criticized pretty

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Speaker 2: frequently for like how sometimes people think his movie the

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Speaker 2: themes of his movies are like a bit too similar.

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Speaker 2: And I think that the way he treats gender in

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Speaker 2: his movies, there's a lot of overlapping problems, just a

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Speaker 2: real fixation on advancing the plot by killing off sis

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Speaker 2: white women. Yes, but in any case, well, I don't

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Speaker 2: even remember what point I was arriving at. I just

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Speaker 2: got mad at him again. I feel like I feel

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Speaker 2: like a lot of people were not alone in having

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Speaker 2: a complicated relationship with the works of Christopher Nolan. Sure,

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Speaker 2: and I wonder if it's generational. I want I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be surprised if the generation after us is sort of

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Speaker 2: not in the way that we're like, oh, fuck Stanley Kubrick.

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Speaker 2: We have no sentimental attachment to him. Where I feel

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Speaker 2: like it's possible that some of our attachment to Christopher

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Speaker 2: Nolan is sentimental.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that could be nostalgia is a real emotion,

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Speaker 1: as it turns.

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Speaker 2: Out, Yeah, god damn it.

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Speaker 1: Well should I try to recap this movie?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I have fun, I'll yeah, I'll yeah.

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Speaker 1: Please do the sound effects.

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Speaker 2: I'll be the top. H did you used to have

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Speaker 2: I Okay, I this is really embarrassing. But I don't know,

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Speaker 2: especially right after I watch a movie, I'm really easily

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Speaker 2: like taken in by it. Sure, because it turns out

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Speaker 2: media is influential to your life. But I did, like

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Speaker 2: for like a week, just a week, but I did

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Speaker 2: like carry around a little totem with me for like

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Speaker 2: a week after I saw this movie. I'm like, I

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Speaker 2: had is that horrible? That's really embarrassing, only because I

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Speaker 2: would never expect you to do something like that, especially

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Speaker 2: for a movie like Inception. I carried around dice for

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Speaker 2: a week. I carried on It was Ellen Page that

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Speaker 2: had the dice. I had dice. I'm like, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: should carry out dice.

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Speaker 1: It was uh, it was Joseph Gordon Lovett.

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Speaker 2: Well that makes sense because when this movie came out,

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Speaker 2: I was so I was like, Joseph Gordon Levitt, genius, sexy, sensitive.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember he used to have that website called

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Speaker 2: hit Record. Joe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I had like the DVDs of that me too.

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Speaker 2: I was just I don't know, Joseph Gordon Levity. I

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Speaker 2: think it's I'm probably a wonderful person, but like he's

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Speaker 2: just so corny. I don't know. Anyways, I carried around

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Speaker 2: the dice and that's on me.

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Speaker 1: That's incredible. I didn't do that. But as you recall,

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Speaker 1: I used to I, well, I still have the ring

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Speaker 1: from Lord of the Rings on a necklace that I

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Speaker 1: only ever wore as I when I was cause playing

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Speaker 1: as Frodo, which I did do multiple times.

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Speaker 2: One of the most iconic pictures of you of all time,

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Speaker 2: because you're selling it and you're so.

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Speaker 1: Happy I'm fully in character. Yes, thank you so much. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so the recap of Inception. Okay, this is a two

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Speaker 1: and a half hour movie and the plot is very complicated,

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Speaker 1: so I did my best to simplify it as much

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Speaker 1: as possible. There's parts that I kind of gloss over

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Speaker 1: a lot. So if you really want to know what

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Speaker 1: the movie's about, just watch it. But here we go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on Amazon on Prime if you're you know,

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Speaker 2: also in Jeff Bezos his pocket because no ethical consumption.

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Speaker 2: It's there indeed.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we open on Leonardo DiCaprio in the water,

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Speaker 1: and we're like, what is this the end of Titanic?

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Speaker 2: I have found Okay, this is a really early point

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Speaker 2: to interrupt. But I I had a thought and when

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Speaker 2: I consulted the one other person I've seen in the

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Speaker 2: past six months, Isaac, I was like, I feel like

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Speaker 2: Leonardo DiCaprio in his career is very often on the

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Speaker 2: beach or in a body of water, fully clothed. It

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Speaker 2: happens a lot, a lot.

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Speaker 1: He's well, he's literally in a movie called The Beach.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like, I don't I don't.

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Speaker 2: Know, We're just closed for a lot of the movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I feel like he's.

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Speaker 2: Fully clothed in the water. In Titanic, he is in

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Speaker 2: a body of water at some point during a shutter

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Speaker 2: island clothed, clothed in the water. An inception. What is

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Speaker 2: it with this guy and being clothed in the water.

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Speaker 2: Just a fun movie trend.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I'll keep my eye on that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone in the comments, shout out your favorite Leonardo

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Speaker 2: DiCaprio clothed in a body of water. I guess in

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Speaker 2: The Revenant, he's clothed in the snow, and also The

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Speaker 2: Great Godsby dies in the pool fully clothed. He's clothed

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Speaker 2: in water all the time. Okay, it's a trope, a

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Speaker 2: trope specific to one actor that has no implications of anything.

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Speaker 2: Unlike most tropes, this trump is meaningless and I don't

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Speaker 2: know why it is so.

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Speaker 1: Or does it have meaning? Jamie Will you just have

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Speaker 1: to discover the meaning?

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Speaker 2: Is he in the water in Gilbert Grape? I'm just like,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's every he is water?

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Speaker 1: Well, he's not clothed, but in He's there's a scene

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Speaker 1: where he gets left in the tub overnight and he's

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Speaker 1: and he's really cold, but he's naked.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I guess that's an out.

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Speaker 1: So does it count.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's maybe someone saw that movie and they're like,

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Speaker 2: but what if he was fully clothed, and then that

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Speaker 2: it's just the rest of his career. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's in his contract. He's like, in every movie

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Speaker 1: I'm in, you are contractually obligated to write a scene

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Speaker 1: in which I am in. What Because there's another scene

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Speaker 1: where he gets dunked in the tub in inception, and

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Speaker 1: he is fully closed, fully closed in the beginning.

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Speaker 2: It's not just like, oh, a T shirt and shorts.

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Speaker 2: It's like he has like layers on in all of

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Speaker 2: these movies. He's like fully dulled up, fully clothed. Underwater

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Speaker 2: happens to him constantly. I couldn't stop thinking about it. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's all I had to say. Does he go into

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Speaker 2: a body of water in Wolf of Wall Street?

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Speaker 1: I have to imagine, Well, he's on a yacht at

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Speaker 1: one point. Yeah, it's just probably swimming pools.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna try to make a remember, I'm gonna try

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Speaker 2: to make a gallery for our instagram of well, you know,

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Speaker 2: the DiCaprio underwater in clothes. It's just sy is.

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Speaker 1: He in water in like Gangs of New York.

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Speaker 2: Well, I still haven't seen that. I know.

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Speaker 1: People love it. It's a slog. I'll tell you what, really.

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Speaker 2: Oh I thought it was a wroth. I was wrong.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm thinking of catch me if you can.

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Speaker 2: People love catch me if you can?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I do like can catch me if you

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Speaker 1: can is a romp.

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Speaker 2: Because you go on underwater in that one.

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Speaker 1: You know what, I would not be surprised at all.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember if he does or not, but it

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Speaker 1: seems very possible in that movie.

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Speaker 2: This is mind blowing to me. This is I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'll source some images, post it to our Instagram be

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Speaker 2: like any any film critics, have something to weigh in

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Speaker 2: with here, it's I feel like the other underwater trope

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Speaker 2: is like a white girl in a teen movie going

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Speaker 2: underwater in a pool to a flecked on her changing life,

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Speaker 2: which is a more gendered trope with implications, whereas this

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Speaker 2: is just chaos. I don't know why it happens.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think we should start a new podcast about it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I agree, it's.

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Speaker 1: beIN Off Okay, so okay, Lee Leo. His character's name

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Speaker 1: is Cobb. He is in the business of extracting information

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Speaker 1: from people's minds yep, by way of infiltrating their dreams.

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Speaker 1: So he and Arthur that's Joseph Gordon Lovitt are trying

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Speaker 1: to extract something from mister Sido, whose name is also

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Speaker 1: pronounced mister Sato sometimes, so I don't know which one

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Speaker 1: it is because the characters say it differently.

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Speaker 2: There's no continuity. The character never corrects. We just don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's annoying.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and he is played by Ken Watanabe.

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Speaker 2: And Icon character actor love him.

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Speaker 1: Yes. Same. So they're trying to extract something from him

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Speaker 1: and they are inside of his dream in the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the movie. Also in this dream is Mal played

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Speaker 1: by Marion Cotillard.

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Speaker 2: Which did you did you learn that that French? Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is like peek Christopher Nolan, But Mal is French

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Speaker 2: for bad or evil? If you want to finish how

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Speaker 2: simplistically Christopher Nolan views gender, He's like, okay, woman, women, women, women, bad,

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Speaker 2: I'm getting bad, I'm getting bad. Okay, we can't just

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Speaker 2: name her bad. I guess we'll have to make it

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Speaker 2: French like yike.

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Speaker 1: Yes. So Mal is Cobbs, his wife, and she has

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Speaker 1: a habit of popping up in dreams throughout the movie,

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Speaker 1: and we will later find out why exactly. So it

432
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: turns out that mister Sido knows that he's asleep and

433
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: that they're all in his dream. But wait a minute,

434
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: they're still in a dream. They're in a dream within

435
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: a dream, and now he's impressed and they all wake

436
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: up from the various levels of this opening dream and

437
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: Saido is like, Okay, I want you to do an inception.

438
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: Rather than extracting something from someone's mind, he wants an

439
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: idea to be planted in someone else's mind, and Arthur's like,

440
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: that's not possible, but Cobb is like, actually it is,

441
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: but it's really hard.

442
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 2: Fortunately, mister DiCaprio, mister clothe underwater himself has the goods.

443
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: Yes, so he's like, it's possible. It's really hard. You

444
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: just have to go really deep into a person's mind.

445
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: And he's reluctant to do it, but Saido is like,

446
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: if you do this for me, I will make it

447
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: so you can return to the US, because Cobb has

448
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: two young children who he can't go home to. But

449
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: we also don't know why yet exactly. So the idea

450
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 1: that Sido wants planted is in the mind of the

451
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: son of Sido's main competitor. He owns some kind of

452
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 1: energy conglomeratet.

453
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: It's all vaguely evil.

454
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Sido wants the son to walk away from

455
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: his inheritance to break up the empire. And I don't

456
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: know if that's because he's basically trying to avoid his

457
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: competitor from establishing a monopoly. And I'm like, okay, well,

458
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: that's good, like monopoly shouldn't exist, but I feel like

459
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: it's because he wants to have the monopoly instead.

460
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of my question is as I

461
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: was at first, I'm like, oh, this is there's a

462
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 2: really fun, like leftist way to look at this. But

463
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: then the more I thought about it, I'm like, actually,

464
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: I don't think that that is true. It seems like

465
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: the reason they want the monopoly broken up are also

466
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: capitalistic and pretty selfish. Uh huh, so zero out of

467
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: ten on that end, Yeah, because I was like, oh,

468
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 2: I forgot this kind of angle of how do you

469
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: is it silly and Murphy? I think it's Killian Killian Murphy,

470
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: but I'm not sure who has beautiful eyes. I think

471
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: every time I see this movie like wow. And then

472
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: also his whole thing is ultimately movies are about fathers

473
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: and sons, which is just like, all right, I guess

474
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: we're doing this again, right in any case, Yeah, I

475
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: was thinking about that, and I don't think it's actually

476
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of like they're sort of doing

477
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: the right thing, but it's not for the right reasons.

478
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: So confusing, not enough information, But what seems to be

479
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: there is not good. Okay. So now Cobb and Arthur

480
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: have to find a new architect, basically someone who creates

481
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: the worlds of the dreams that they go into. So

482
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: they recruit Arianne, which is Ellen Page's character, and they

483
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: show her the Ropes, and we learn that time and

484
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: dream world moves more quickly or more slowly. I don't Basically,

485
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: five minutes in the real world gets you one hour

486
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: in dream world, right, And then we also learn about totems,

487
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: which are the little objects that help these people distinguish

488
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: dreams from reality. They recruit Emes aka Tom Hardy to

489
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: be a forger basically someone who impersonates other people within dreams.

490
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: And then they also recruit a chemist named Yusuf to

491
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: create sedatives to keep people asleep and let them go

492
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: deep enough.

493
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: Who is the scientist from Avatar?

494
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: Is he? I don't remember?

495
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: Yes? Okay, yes, I went deep down the rabbit hole

496
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: because I'm like, I like this character, director, where have

497
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 2: I seen him before? And I'm like Avatar? And then

498
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 2: it was like, what has he done since inception? Literally Avatars?

499
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: So I think he's just been like trapped in New

500
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: Zealand for ten years? Yeah, because Avatar.

501
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: Well, James Cameron will do that. Yeah, So his participation

502
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: in the story is necessary because they need these powerful

503
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: sedatives because for inception, you need to go down, like

504
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: Cobb is like, we have to go down three levels

505
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: a dream within a dream within a dream. We also

506
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: learn that mal is actually dead, and.

507
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: We're like, well, it's the Christopher Nolan movie. I guess

508
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: that stands to reason.

509
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: That tracks so whenever we see her in any dreams,

510
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: she is just Cobb's projection of her. And we find

511
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: out the reason that he can't go home and see

512
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: his kids is that people think that Cobb killed her.

513
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: So they start planning the infiltration. There's this the kick

514
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: that they have to synchronize.

515
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: I'm sing something the kick right, And they.

516
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: Figure out if they get stuck in the third level

517
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: of the dream, it might be like ten or more

518
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: years that they're trapped, so they have to like make

519
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: sure that that doesn't happen. And the time comes to

520
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: sneak into kill Murphy's dream. His name is mister Fisher.

521
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: They're on a long flight from Sydney to la That's

522
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: when they go in. They hack into his brain.

523
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: But there's not a Matthew Lillard to be found.

524
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: Where is Matthew Lillard in Hackers in this movie? Missed opportunity.

525
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: So they get into the first level of the dream.

526
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: They have a rough start, Cobb's subconscious projections keep interfering,

527
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: Sido gets shot. You know, they're trying to get a

528
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: combination from Fisher. All this stuff I'm going to kind

529
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: of gloss over. They get into the next level the

530
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: dream within a dream, Cobb tells Fisher that he's like,

531
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: by the way, you're in a dream spoiler, and he

532
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: convinces him that Fisher's uncle Peter is conspiring against him,

533
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: and convinces Fisher to go into the next level of

534
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: the dream with them, which ends up being this kind

535
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: of remote fortress in the snowy mountains.

536
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: Right, this is like the everyone is wearing matching outfits

537
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: and has a machine gun. Question mark, Right, yeah, you're

538
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: just like, all right, I guess we're here.

539
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: Sure, chaos is happening all around them and in on

540
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: the other levels of the dream. In the third level,

541
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: just as Fisher is about to open a safe, which

542
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: will effectively be the moment of inception, mal comes in

543
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: and shoots Fisher, which means that Cobb and Ariadne Ariadney

544
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: have to is that how you say your name?

545
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: No idea again, I think different characters say it differently.

546
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because like at one point, Michael Kine's

547
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: like Ariadney except in a British accent.

548
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: Right, And you're like, is it just because he's British?

549
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, not sure. I'm like, stop choosing these

550
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,239
Speaker 2: names if you're not going to tell your actors how

551
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: to pronounce them, right, Christopher Nolan, it's like, literally, stat

552
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: like you've made five hundred movies, tell your cast how

553
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 2: to pronounce the name.

554
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: Yep, oh, well shouldn't be that hard and yet okay,

555
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: So she and Cobb have to go down to yet

556
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: another layer of the dream I think, so that they

557
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: can keep going and get the job done. So now

558
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: that they're in like the fourth layer of dream world,

559
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: and when they're down there, Cobb reveals that it was

560
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: him who incepted mal with the idea that maybe reality

561
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: isn't reality, and that's why she killed herself, because that's

562
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: something we learn happened. But now he's finally able to

563
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: let go of the guilt, and he stays behind to

564
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: find Sido, who has died in dream world and will

565
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: be stuck in limbo, so Cob finds him, which is

566
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: the scene that the movie opens on, and then everyone

567
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: you know wakes up from the various levels of the dream.

568
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: We get back to reality on the plane, Fisher has

569
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: been successfully incepted, and then everyone gives each other a

570
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: meaningful look.

571
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: It really oh my god. The Hans Zimmer is blasting that.

572
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: Everyone's just like, we did it. We did it. We

573
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: did it. We did it, we did it, we did it.

574
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: Ellen Page is like I forgive you, and you're like why.

575
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: Right Then Cobb returned home to see his children, but

576
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: the ending is left ambiguous because of the spinning top.

577
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: We don't know if he's in a dream or the

578
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: real world. And it's like, Christopher Nolan, just let us

579
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: see the top fall over, you coward.

580
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: That's no, I think that. That's like, I was like,

581
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: that's pretty cool. That is never not the coolest choice

582
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: to me. I'm like, I hate no. I hate it

583
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,719
Speaker 2: because your team rose went to sleep and it's like,

584
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: you know, I like that. They don't tell you and

585
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: it's a little wobbly and you're like oh oh oh, like,

586
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: oh my god, it's fun. You can argue about it

587
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: with your friends on the way home. It's a movie

588
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,479
Speaker 2: fun whatever. Like what am I just saying?

589
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, why are you trying to die on

590
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: this hill?

591
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 2: No idea? I retract dying on this hill.

592
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come

593
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: right back to discuss.

594
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 2: Oh, Christopher Nolan, where do we? I mean, Okay, I

595
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 2: have a really quick rundown. I'm trying to I'm struggling

596
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: to remember exactly how much of this talk we have

597
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: sort of had to an extent in our Dark Night episode,

598
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: but I just wanted to give a quick rundown of

599
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: I feel like it is semi common knowledge among movie

600
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: lovers ficionados, if you will, that Christopher Nolan tends to

601
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: kill off female characters fridging we call it killing off

602
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: a female character, usually the significant other of the main

603
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: male protagonists, in order to advance the plot in a

604
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: rather lazy sexist way. I think Christopher Nolan is one

605
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: of the foremost offenders of this trope in modern movies.

606
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: I will at very least say that it appears that

607
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 2: he has at least I mean it took him a

608
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: long time, but it seems like someone has brought this

609
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 2: to his attention at some point, because we have at

610
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: this as of this recording, we have not seen tenet.

611
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: But it seems like at least in his past two movies,

612
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 2: he has not fridged female characters. An Interstellar, I don't

613
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 2: believe it happens. And then there's like a dead there's

614
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 2: a dead wife, but her death is an integral to

615
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 2: the plot. And then what Dunkirk aka Boy Island has

616
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: zero women? So I think he kind of gets off

617
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: on a technicality by not including women at all, right,

618
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: But just a quick rundown of how this very and

619
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: I think it ties into a lot of how much

620
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan pulls from film noir and especially in this

621
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 2: movie the fem fetal tropes. Oh yeah, that he is

622
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 2: referencing without building on at all. But how dead hot

623
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: cis white hetero woman factors into his plots. It's remarkable. Okay,

624
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: So apparently his first feature, which I've never seen, called

625
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: following has a beautiful dead girl is the twist at

626
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: the end. There's a twist at the end, spoiler, and

627
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 2: it's a dead white girl. Okay, momenta, Okay, So I'm

628
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 2: pulling here from a blog post from overthinking it dot Com,

629
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: where they very succinctly put this so Memento. A man

630
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: with amnesia is obsessed with finding the killer of his

631
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 2: beautiful wife. Yes insomnia. A detective plays a cat and

632
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 2: mouse game with the killer of a beautiful young girl.

633
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: The Prestige. A magician engages in a bitter rivalry with

634
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: a former friend he blames for the death of his

635
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 2: beautiful wife. The Dark Knight. The lives of a masked

636
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 2: vigilante and a district attorney are shattered when the beautiful

637
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 2: woman they both love is killed. Inception. A dream thief

638
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: struggles with the crushing guilt of his wife taking her

639
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: own life. And that gets us up to so at

640
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: this point, like this is like sixth or seventh time

641
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: that Christopher Nolan has done this exact thing. Yes, I

642
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: am all for a director, Like I don't really have

643
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 2: an issue with Like I appreciate that Christopher Nolan seems

644
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 2: to be really interested in the concept of time and

645
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: time manipulation. That's his thing, not a problem. But he

646
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: dismisses female characters the same way every time. It's like,

647
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: not just insensitive, it's also stunningly lazy.

648
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: It's like get some new material, bro, like write a

649
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: new premise.

650
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 2: Seriously, if I was Chris, I know Christopher Nolan's his wife,

651
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: Emma Thomas, is a producer on I think maybe every

652
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 2: single one of his movies. If I were her, I

653
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: would just be so nervous. I'm just like, my husband

654
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: seems really like fixated on a wife being dead in

655
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 2: order to move on with their life. Like, yeah, what

656
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 2: is he trying to tell me? Also, this is his

657
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 2: brother writes some of the movies too, So Jonathan Nolan

658
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: is also at fault here, sure, yes, for being obsessed

659
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: with dead white ladies. I just think it's it's just

660
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: so strange. And this movie, I think is This and

661
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: Memento for Me are tied with them for the most

662
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: egregious examples of this.

663
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: But then the p Yeah, and we did talk quite

664
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: a bit about Fridging in the Dark Night episode because

665
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: the character whose name escapes me, oh no, Rachel Dawes,

666
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: she gets Fridged.

667
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 2: Or Maggie Jellenhall at death Bridge. But Katie Holmes at

668
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 2: other points in her life.

669
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: Right, she gets violence is you know, people are violent

670
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: toward her three different times in that movie. If I'm

671
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: remembering correctly, the final time being when she dies. So yeah,

672
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: there's there's constant fridging, all.

673
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: To advance the plot of Christian Bale and famously I Frankenstein.

674
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 2: I mean, go to the Matreon, but here everything the

675
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 2: whole teapot was spilled on Frankenstein.

676
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not seeing the thread. How does why Frankenstein connect.

677
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: Aaron Eckhart.

678
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: Right, because he plays Harvey Dent in Okay, I get

679
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: it now.

680
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 2: But then he later plays mister mister Adam Frankenstein. It

681
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: sounds so ridiculous to say out loud Adam Frankenstein, but

682
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 2: that's the character's name.

683
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: But that's the only ridiculous thing about the movie.

684
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: Otherwise everything else makes total sense. But yeah, I and

685
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of these Christopher Nolan movies I

686
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 2: enjoy in a macro sense, but it is kind of

687
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: stunning how the same thing happens over and over and over.

688
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 2: And I think that especially how mal Mal's character, I'll

689
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: just call her bad. How Bad's character is treated in

690
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 2: this movie is very almost beat for beat, pretty similar

691
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: to how the oh I'm not remember the character's name,

692
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: but his wife in The Prestigious treated right. It's like

693
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 2: she loses touch, she doesn't know what's real and what

694
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 2: is and ends up taking her own life. And then

695
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: men argue for an hour, and you're just like, why

696
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: is this a thing?

697
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: Wait? What I remember from that? I need to rewatch

698
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: the Prestige. But the main thing I remember from that

699
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: movie is a woman dying in the very beginning in

700
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: that sort of like initiating that rivalry. Does another woman die?

701
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: No, I'm referring to that woman, but she comes back

702
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: through flashbacks and stuff like that.

703
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: That's okay, got it, gotta got it.

704
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's I believe it's Piper Perabau, who

705
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: is the the his wife?

706
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: Okay, got it?

707
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: In that movie?

708
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: Any bottom line, Yes, Christopher Nolan has a terrible track

709
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: record when it comes to including women in his movie.

710
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: He has a real fixation on a woman has to

711
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: be fridged and more specifically, die in a movie to

712
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: characterize my male protagonist.

713
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: Violently, die violently, especially like Memento and Insomnia. The whole

714
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 2: point of the movie doesn't happen unless a woman is

715
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: killed violently. Like it's really frustrating. I came across this

716
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: very helpful paper by I believe a Swedish writer whose

717
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 2: name I'm going to butcher and I apologize, it's Spherear Sigfusen.

718
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: I'll link it. I apologize I almost certainly got that wrong.

719
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 2: But they wrote a paper called Noir Guilt Complex the

720
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 2: death of women as a catalyst for character development and

721
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 2: plot in the films of Christopher Nolan, And basically, I

722
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: mean a lot of it is stuff we're going to

723
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 2: be discussing anyways. But I did think it was interesting

724
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: and I had never quite made this connection very explicitly

725
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: before of how dependent Christopher Nolan is on film noir

726
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 2: tropes in order for his movie to work, and how

727
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 2: I think like it's been regarded as like, oh, you know,

728
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan is updating film noir, when it's like, you know,

729
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,439
Speaker 2: maybe he is esthetically and effects wise, but in its

730
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: treatment of women, I would argue it's like even more

731
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 2: regressive than your average film noir, where you have obviously,

732
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 2: you have your your fem fetal who I think Mal

733
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 2: falls into that very cleanly, down to her haircut. For

734
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 2: some reason, she looks like it's a film noir movie

735
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: even though it's twenty ten, and everyone else looks like

736
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 2: it's twenty ten. But whatever, right, but she she falls

737
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 2: very cleanly into that. But at least in most film noirs,

738
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: which we have yet to cover on the show. But

739
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: just what I mean, I've seen some of them. I'm

740
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: not a huge fan. But at least part of what

741
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: distinguished a fem fetal is she is always, you know,

742
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 2: connected to the mystery, and she's often manipul There's definitely

743
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: a lot of negative tropes in there. But at very

744
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: least part of what makes a femme fatal interesting is

745
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 2: that they have agency that at that time it was

746
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 2: unusual for a female character to have, right, And I

747
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: feel like Christopher Nolan presents you with the esthetics and

748
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 2: some of the hallmarks of a femme fatal, but then

749
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: generally strips her of agency entirely. So in some ways

750
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 2: it's like even worse.

751
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, right, Oh yeah, Well, let me tell

752
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: you a little something that Christopher Nolan himself said in

753
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: an interview with Wired in twenty ten, shortly after the

754
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 1: movie came out, because he was asked about his like

755
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: noir references in his movies and particularly in Inception, and

756
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: he said, quote, the key noir reference is the character

757
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 1: mal It was very important to me that she come

758
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: across as a classic femme fatal. So he is literally

759
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 1: identifying her as such. That was extremely deliberate on his part.

760
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: M hmm. Okay, back to the quote. The rest of

761
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: the quote is the character in her relationship to Cobb's

762
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: Psyche is the literal manifestation of what the femme fatale

763
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: always meant in film noir, the neuroses of the protagonist,

764
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 1: his fear of how little he knows about the woman

765
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: he's fallen in love with, that kind of thing. End quote.

766
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 2: So see, I feel like, I mean, you know, everyone

767
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 2: is free to interpret anything anyway they like, but that

768
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 2: seems like a pretty unsophisticated interpretation of what a femme

769
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: fatal is supposed to. Like. I feel like he's kind

770
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: of telling on himself there a little bit, because to me,

771
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: that's never been to me what a femme fatale is

772
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 2: as a manifestation of the male protagonist insecurity. It's like,

773
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: I think that's how Christopher Nolan's fem fetals present mm hmm.

774
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: But I don't think that that's I mean, for me,

775
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 2: I always viewed the fem fatale in terms of like

776
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 2: the negative stereotypes associated with them of being like the

777
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 2: threat of a woman who is sexually empowered and has agency,

778
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 2: and that this presents a danger to the protagonist, and

779
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 2: like it falls into the you know, stereotype that women

780
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: are always trying to deceive you and you can't trust women.

781
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: When they say yes they mean no, when they say no,

782
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 2: they mean yes. And to me, that was where those

783
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 2: tropes lie. So the fact that he interprets fem fatals

784
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 2: that way is also like kind of I don't know

785
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:27,879
Speaker 2: telling to me, I.

786
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: Guess, yeah, I don't And maybe that's just like the

787
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: way he thinks he's updating, But no, he says, like

788
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: this is a very classic femme fatale. So yeah, I

789
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what to make of this, aside from

790
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: he extremely intentionally wrote Mal as a fem fatale, which

791
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: in itself is sort of confusing to me because, as

792
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: we already hinted at, the character that we see on

793
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: screen as Mal is in some cases in flashback, she

794
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: is a real person and alive in the context of

795
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: that flashback, but most of the time we see her,

796
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: she is a projection of Cobbs subconscious, right, So she's

797
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: not even real. She's just his guilt ridden version of her,

798
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: buried deep in his subcondion, which.

799
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: Is also in text explicit too, like they say that

800
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: by the end, which brings me to I mean, we

801
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 2: were sort of referencing this at the beginning. But even

802
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 2: though there is an exchange in this movie that on

803
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 2: its surface may appear to pass the Bechdel test, I

804
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 2: feel like, with the exception of a few flashback lines,

805
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: most of the time we hear Mall speak, she's speaking

806
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: through Cobb's subconscious And so I don't think that really

807
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,720
Speaker 2: qualifies as a female protagonist because it's made explicitly clear

808
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: intacts that she is a manifestation of his, which is like,

809
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 2: I mean, could you have less agency? No right, you're

810
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 2: being repeatedly murdered, but you're also just a projection of

811
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 2: your husband. But we get to see her die violently

812
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 2: several times, don't worry.

813
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 1: Yep, yes we do. Does it pass the Bechdel test

814
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: when Ariodney kills her in the end, And does it

815
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: pass the Bechdel test when she stabs Ariodney towards the

816
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: beginning of the movie. Women are killing each other more

817
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: than you'd expect.

818
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 2: At least her being a manifestation of like Emo Cobb

819
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 2: like at least justifies how overwrought Mary and Courtyard's dialogue is.

820
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: And she's like a fabulous actor and she I mean,

821
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,439
Speaker 2: I really liked her in the movie when it first

822
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 2: came out. I was like, Wow, she's so cool. She's

823
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 2: so like compelling in the way that fem fe tel

824
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: characters can be. And she's really talented. But like on paper,

825
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 2: my god, where she's like circling ellen Page like a hawk,

826
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 2: and it's just like have you ever been a lover?

827
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 2: And you're like, oh my god. And if you think

828
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: that that's actually like if you think about it, and

829
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 2: you're like, that's actually Leonardo DiCaprio subconsciously asking her that

830
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: you like leave ellen Page alone.

831
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: Right, And on top of that those lines that are

832
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: being delivered by his subconsciousness version of mal she's just

833
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: quoting stuff he has said, like earlier in their life

834
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: to Ariadne, So she's like not even saying her own words.

835
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: She's just like quoting Cobb's character.

836
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 4: So like, yeah, and the and even like the physical implications,

837
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 4: and I know that the story is not intended to

838
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 4: be read this one to one, but it's for the

839
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 4: sake of argument.

840
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: I just I really it didn't sit well with me

841
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 2: on this viewing that it is like a victory every

842
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: time Leonardo DiCaprio shoots his wife and kills her, like

843
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: in this movie, brutalizing a woman means a really good

844
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: thing and progress for our protagonist. That he is able

845
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 2: to shoot his wife with a machine gun. That's good,

846
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 2: that's progress. We like that. Like, it's just I don't know,

847
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: it's just kind of I know that it's not that

848
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 2: one to one, and you know, if you're watching the movie,

849
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: you understand, but it is just on the surface is

850
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 2: kind of ugly. I don't like it.

851
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: Well, it's so weird because one of my big things

852
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: with this movie is that a lot of the complications

853
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:34,439
Speaker 1: that arise in the story could have been eliminated if

854
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: Cobb just like went to therapy, because so many of

855
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: the obstacles are mall showing up and like trying to

856
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: interfere or sabotage their mission. And it's because he has

857
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: so much guilt about the circumstances surrounding her death, and

858
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: he's like buried all of this guilt in his subconscious

859
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: So these projections of her based on all this guilt

860
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: he is feeling keep popping up and ruining everything and

861
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: like messing with their whole operation. And it's just like,

862
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: if you just go to therapy, go to therapy and work.

863
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 2: This shit out therapy, if Ellen Page will just do

864
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: it for free.

865
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: Like oh that, yeah, I have a whole I have

866
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 1: a whole spiel about that.

867
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 2: But before we get to Ellen Page, I also wanted

868
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: to just quickly like the way that and I honestly like,

869
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 2: I don't have a direct fix for this, given how

870
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 2: rooted this movie is in the brain and the subconscious.

871
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 2: But the way that Maul's what manifests mental illness mm hmm,

872
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: that leads to her taking her own life. It just

873
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 2: is very I think under thought and pretty sexist in

874
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 2: the way that it's presented to the viewer, where you know,

875
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 2: you are told by Leonardo DiCaprio like, well, I implanted this

876
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: sick thought in her brain and that blossomed into and

877
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 2: on and on, and you're, you know, it's like he's

878
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 2: towing a line there. Okay, let's see where this goes.

879
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,839
Speaker 2: And and the way that it manifests I just I

880
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 2: didn't really care for it all where you know, it

881
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 2: did lead to her becoming deeply paranoid about what is

882
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 2: you know, what is real and what isn't. That's inherent

883
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 2: to the story. But when it comes down to we

884
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 2: see her take her own life without knowing you know

885
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 2: that her husband is the one who has, you know,

886
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 2: basically forced this circumstance on her. And on top of

887
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 2: that that she did. I think this is like a

888
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 2: combination of handling mental illness very poorly, badly interpreting what

889
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: a fem fe tale is, and just good old fashioned

890
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 2: sexism where he had, like Christopher Nolan has Mary and

891
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: Courtyard's character say well, I've basically framed you for being

892
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 2: a horrible person, so you also have to take your

893
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 2: own life with me, and I've kind of like it

894
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 2: just makes her seem so devious. And the specific mention

895
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 2: of I've had myself quote unquote declared saying by three

896
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: different doctors and vagueness of that, I thought was very troubling.

897
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I mean, it's like I feel like,

898
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 2: you know, if Christopher Nolan is going to root a

899
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 2: movie in the brain and in the dark recesses of

900
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 2: the brain, and what are the consequences of exploring that

901
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 2: you have to do your homework and like deal with

902
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 2: that responsibly, Like that's literally what the movie is. But

903
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 2: then when you actually get down to the specifics and this,

904
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 2: you know, this criticism exists on many levels of this movie.

905
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: You're like, huh, but this, but this is I think,

906
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 2: like a genuinely harmful one of just kind of casually

907
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 2: being like, I don't know, defining reality, implying that women

908
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 2: are more susceptible. I mean, it's just I don't know.

909
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 2: I just didn't like it. I yet it was handled

910
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 2: very unresponsibly, irresponsibly, My god, I.

911
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 1: Have a whole thing about this where sure, we've talked

912
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: about the idea of a woman being a bitchy obstacle

913
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: for a male character to deal with quite a bit.

914
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: I think there's a variation on this trope, and I

915
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: think it ties somewhat into the fem fatale conversation. But

916
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: I think there's a slightly there's a different version of it,

917
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: because if you do look at some like really well

918
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: written film noir, you do see femme fatale characters who

919
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: are nuanced and interesting fully characterized like have and not

920
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: in every case, but There are definitely case studies you

921
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: can do of certain fem fatale characters who are like

922
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: really interesting, compelling characters. If you take like the husk

923
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 1: of that, you get what I'm about to talk about,

924
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 1: which is again this variation on the bitchy oppos I

925
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what to call it, because, as we've

926
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: talked about recently, we're doing our best to really eliminate

927
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: words from our vocabulary that have any disparaging or negative

928
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: connotations surrounding mental illness. So I was inclined originally to

929
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: call it like a crazy obstacle, but I don't want

930
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: to use that word anymore. So I'm trying to figure

931
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 1: out exactly how to best characterize this. But basically the.

932
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 2: Idea group effort, we got this right.

933
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: The idea is a woman will be depicted as having

934
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: behavior that is erratic or unstable or irrational or obsessive,

935
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: and that behavior becomes a major obstacle for other characters,

936
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: particularly the male protagonist. We see this in movies such

937
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 1: as Glenn Closest character in Fatal Attraction. This is a

938
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: huge one. We see it in Kathy Bates' character in Misery,

939
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: even like Wayne's ex girlfriend in Wayne's World. You see

940
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: it in Andrew Garfield's character's girlfriend in the Social Network.

941
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: This is the whole plot of my super ex girlfriend.

942
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: This is uh Isla Fisher's character in Wedding Crashers.

943
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 2: So it is so I mean, so pervasive that and

944
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,760
Speaker 2: I think that, I mean, this goes to a lot

945
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 2: of tropes that go I mean, even hearing that list

946
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 2: like sends me kind of back to like research I

947
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: did on mensa in just terms of like how it's

948
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 2: a generally accepted thing for for a very long time

949
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 2: and still by many people now that the brain of

950
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 2: a woman or just a not a cis male, is

951
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 2: weaker and more fragile and more, which is stigmatizing to everybody. Yeah,

952
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,720
Speaker 2: because I feel like it also reinforces this hyper masculinity

953
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 2: of like I'm a boy, my brain is stronger. I

954
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,919
Speaker 2: couldn't you know, I couldn't possibly need therapy, I can

955
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 2: possibly need to seek out help because I have a

956
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 2: strong brain. And just I mean the implications that this

957
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 2: go on and on and on. But yeah, there is

958
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 2: like this very common perception that you know, women are

959
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 2: not I don't know that. Yeah, Like there I think

960
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 2: that it's been often labeled as women are inclined towards hysteria.

961
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 2: It's stated explicitly in many cases, and I think that

962
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 2: it's stated not quite as explicitly in this movie, but

963
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 2: it's heavily implied. And yeah, I mean it's incredibly frustrating,

964
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 2: and it's still you know, in movies to this day.

965
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 2: This was ten years ago, and it's.

966
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: Weird because, like so this is kind of a different

967
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: circumstance than a lot of those other movies I listed,

968
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: because in this case, mal being this obsessive, unstable person

969
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: is well, okay, part of it is what she becomes

970
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: after having been incepted and effectively gasline it, because what

971
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: is inception besides it being like gaslighting someone.

972
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 2: On a like you know, a chemical level.

973
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: Right, So, after after he incepts her and makes her

974
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: question her own reality to the point that she dies

975
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: by suicide. So there's that factor. But then also a

976
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 1: lot of what we see of her on screen again

977
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: is his projections of her, and she is again very meddlesome.

978
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: She's showing up to sabotage their mission all the time,

979
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: and in that way, she becomes this obstacle who is

980
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: again characterized as being irrational, unstable, et cetera. But like

981
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 1: that's his version of her, so like which we learn.

982
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 2: At the very end. But I feel like at that

983
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 2: point the damage has kind of already been done and

984
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 2: it's well, it is an interesting twist, I guess, Like

985
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 2: I remember when I first saw the movie, when you

986
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 2: find out what the real circumstance of like her death was,

987
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, this okay, but but it's just not handled.

988
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 2: It's handled so I think strangely, and I think it

989
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 2: is a lot of what it is is she's treated

990
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 2: so poorly and kind of so inconsistently because it's just like,

991
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 2: that's not who the writer's concern is. The writer is

992
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 2: concerned with basically absolving Leonardo DiCaprio from as much guilt

993
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 2: as they possibly can before the movie is over. And

994
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 2: that is I think a huge reason why Ellen Page

995
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 2: is involved so heavily. There's elements of her character that

996
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 2: I like, but her you know, huge task here, I

997
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 2: think is to take on, you know, Cobb's emotional baggage

998
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 2: and absolve him of guilt. Yeah, that is basically her

999
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 2: plot function, and and it's just I don't know, it

1000
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 2: seems like the plot is designed to examine his guilt,

1001
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 2: explain why he's feeling that guilt, and then say, actually,

1002
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 2: we forgive him.

1003
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 1: It's fine, right, because like there should be more stories

1004
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: about men dealing with their feelings and acknowledging that they

1005
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: have feelings and coping with them in healthy ways. Like

1006
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: there are not stories about that very much. Not that

1007
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: this is a story about that either, because he does

1008
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: not deal with his feelings in a healthy way.

1009
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 2: No, he just waits for someone to tell him to

1010
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 2: not deal with it, and then he doesn't like, well,

1011
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, I don't know. I guess in

1012
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 2: that last scene, I will say this is embarrassing also,

1013
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 2: But like that last scene with him and mau it

1014
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 2: still gets me a little bit when she's you know,

1015
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 2: they did grow old together. That's very sweet that part.

1016
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 2: You're like, okay, fine, you got me for a second there,

1017
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 2: But but it's like it's just so it, you know,

1018
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 2: even that moment is designed to absolve him of the

1019
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 2: consequences of his actions. The fact that he did a

1020
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 2: bunch of sweet, nice things in the dream world before

1021
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 2: gaslighting his wife and causing this personal catastrophe and taking

1022
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 2: her life from her. The fact that they grew all

1023
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: together in the dream world is supposed to make that okay,

1024
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 2: And and the movie just kind of runs with that.

1025
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he should feel guilty.

1026
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 2: He should feel I don't know why everyone's like, don't

1027
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 2: feel guilty. It's like, yeah, go to therapy, feel guilty.

1028
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 2: Probably go into a different line of work like that.

1029
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 2: These are these are the things I see. It's like,

1030
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 2: be a father to your children. Huh, get a different job,

1031
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: like just come.

1032
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: On, become a real like an architect who just designs

1033
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: buildings in the real world. Like stop it feel.

1034
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 2: Like Joseph Gordon Levit in five Hundred Days of Summer God,

1035
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 2: because Okay, I honestly, I kept getting confused because I

1036
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 2: know that everyone in that I couldn't tell you who's

1037
01:01:57,640 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 2: doing what in the in the tea, the dream tea,

1038
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 2: and they're like, I'm the architect, I'm the PA, I

1039
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 2: do the lights, or like whatever the fuck they're doing.

1040
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 1: The inception squad, they're all they all each have their

1041
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: little job.

1042
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 2: Ye squad. But I kept thinking that Joseph Gordon Levitt

1043
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: was the architect because he's an architect in five Hundred

1044
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 2: Days of Summer. But he's not he's like the gaffer

1045
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 2: of dreams. I don't know what he does.

1046
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 1: His job is never given a name, because you have

1047
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: Ariadney is the She's the architect. Eames aka Tom Hardy

1048
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 1: is the forger. We've got the chemist and Yusuf. But

1049
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 1: we don't know what Joseph Gordon Levitt's character is, what

1050
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: his job title.

1051
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 2: Is supposed to be, like cute and around he I

1052
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't I like need to get past

1053
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 2: by Joseph Gordon Levitt, Like I just find him bothers them.

1054
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 2: But it's fine. He's not a bad person and that

1055
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 2: doesn't happen enough so.

1056
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: That we know, of Gosh, they still care before you

1057
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 1: drag me check the date that this was really.

1058
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 2: Right.

1059
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: God, But I guess where I land on Mal's character

1060
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: is that like the way she behaves is not her

1061
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 1: fault because Cobbs gas lit her into this warped version

1062
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: of reality. And then the rest of the time we

1063
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: see her is his perception of her. And again he

1064
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 1: barely thinks very little of her.

1065
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 2: If he just and then at the end he kind

1066
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 2: of like self owns himself by being like yeah, obviously

1067
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 2: or nothing like this, And you know, I guess I'm

1068
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 2: just a little better. But but then it sounds like

1069
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 2: he's like calling, he's insulting her. It just sucks like

1070
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 2: every like it's a personal victory when he's cruel to her,

1071
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 2: and it's a personal victory when he murders her because

1072
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 2: she is his guilt. Right, find a better metaphor for that, Like, oh,

1073
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 2: don't keep killing Mary in Courtyard, she's she's so talented. Yeah,

1074
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 2: I found that whole thing. Really, this is just a

1075
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 2: plot issue. Why wouldn't he just tell her he incepted

1076
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 2: her when she's on the ledge? Feel like that might

1077
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 2: do it? Right?

1078
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 1: There are many plot holes in this movie, and I

1079
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:21,360
Speaker 1: don't even know what they all are because it's so complicated.

1080
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 2: I'm not paying enough attention.

1081
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 1: But I know that they're there. I just don't know

1082
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 1: what they are. But like, right, what is Why wouldn't

1083
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 1: he just because she's not real? What are the what

1084
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: would be the consequences if he told her that sooner?

1085
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 1: Because him got worst a divorce? Right in dream world

1086
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 1: even or in the real world? Like why doesn't he

1087
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:47,880
Speaker 1: just tell her at any point in the movie prior

1088
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 1: to the end, Like there's no I don't understand what

1089
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: the disadvantage of revealing this sooner would have been, and

1090
01:04:54,240 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: I understand story and whatever. But yeah, so it's like right,

1091
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: so like in storytelling, the character arc doesn't happen until

1092
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 1: the like the full arc doesn't come all the way around.

1093
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: He won't change or grow until the end. But like

1094
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: what just oh it goes back to like find a

1095
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: better way to deal and like again, a man dealing

1096
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 1: with grief, Like that's an interesting story. Like men are

1097
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: so conditioned to be emotionally closed off and to like

1098
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 1: not acknowledge or feel their feelings, and like so a

1099
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: story that explores that is worthwhile. But even like in this,

1100
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: he just doesn't. He doesn't deal with his grief in

1101
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 1: a healthy way at all. He's just he's so he's

1102
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: just keeps well, I mean it's coming and.

1103
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 2: His characters grow too much. Then Christopher Nolan might have

1104
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 2: to do that, and that's clearly like not something that

1105
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 2: is on the table. So I don't know. And again

1106
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 2: it's like when we talk when we talk about Christopher Nolan,

1107
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 2: I guess I'm also including I mean not in Inception.

1108
01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 2: Jonathan Nolan didn't write Inception, Christopher did he? But Jonathan

1109
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 2: Nolan is very present in the perpetuation of this in

1110
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 2: the Nolan Expanded Universe.

1111
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: Sure whatever, So like, I guess my point, we're like,

1112
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 1: kind of what I'm trying to figure out here is

1113
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 1: mal The way we see her behaving in the movie

1114
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 1: is really not her fault because the gaslighting and her

1115
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:27,439
Speaker 1: being a projection of his subconscious when we do see her.

1116
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 1: But even so, the movie frames her as the villain

1117
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: who we are not supposed to identify with or we

1118
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 1: are not, like she's just there to further characterize Cob,

1119
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: So we as the audience are meant to see her

1120
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 1: as an obstacle, as a complication. I think there's part

1121
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: of it where like we are supposed to be like,

1122
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: oh no, we especially at the end when she's like

1123
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 1: when she finally learns because he finally tells her that it.

1124
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 2: Was him and gave her the agent that him. Isn't

1125
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 2: he just telling himself, like he's the truth to himself,

1126
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 2: because like she's dead, You're like you're making amends with

1127
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 2: you You're subconscious you're not even making amends with your

1128
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 2: wife because it was your fault that she died.

1129
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: Which is an important part of like growth of like

1130
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: admitting something to yourself and acknowledging that you have a problem.

1131
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:20,680
Speaker 1: That is literally step one of the process.

1132
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 2: But I feel like it's framed like he's making amends

1133
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 2: with which is so weird because in the previous moment

1134
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 2: he's like, I know that you're not you. I know

1135
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 2: that you're a part of me. But then it sort

1136
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 2: of evolves into my read And maybe I'm just like

1137
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 2: an unsophisticated viewer, but like when I was first watching

1138
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 2: this movie, I thought the movie was very clearly saying like, oh,

1139
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 2: and isn't this nice. He made amends with his wife

1140
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 2: and he apologized to her. But it's like, if you

1141
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 2: think about that for even point oh one seconds, he's

1142
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 2: not she's dead. It's done. I just ugh, messy, messy,

1143
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:00,160
Speaker 2: messy Chris.

1144
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 1: In the real world, after they have woken up from

1145
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: that like fifty years long dream where they grow all

1146
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:10,240
Speaker 1: together and build a whole world together, he knows that

1147
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 1: there's something the matter because one because he incepted her

1148
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 1: and two because he's done right says like, yeah, she

1149
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 1: wasn't the same. I could tell something was wrong. Then

1150
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:25,759
Speaker 1: like make sure she gets help, like go to couples

1151
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: counseling together.

1152
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 2: I don't like to do somebody but his but I

1153
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 2: but I feel like they dodged that by being like, well,

1154
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 2: we can't tell people about the whole dream thing or

1155
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 2: or or, which is like okay, but nuh. Also, I

1156
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:41,760
Speaker 2: thought this is like the Moo's minor character to the

1157
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 2: point where you don't even see her. But they made

1158
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 2: Grandma seem also like a very cruel bad character that

1159
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 2: was like you can't, I don't want you to talk

1160
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:52,600
Speaker 2: to later, and I'm like, uh, look at what she

1161
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 2: has to work with here, Like she thinks that you

1162
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 2: murdered her daughter, which basically you did, so stop being

1163
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 2: such a baby. Of course she doesn't like you. There's

1164
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,879
Speaker 2: so I wouldn't If I was the grandma in that situation,

1165
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 2: I would be like, these kids are being raised by me,

1166
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 2: bye bye. Like Leonardo DiCaprio doesn't get with in I

1167
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 2: also don't fully understand why he gets to be with

1168
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:19,680
Speaker 2: his kids at the end, but I think that that

1169
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 2: was because I always stopped listening. By the end of

1170
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 2: this movie, I'm sure it's justified. But this, okay, so

1171
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:27,799
Speaker 2: this kind of do you have anything else on? Mal?

1172
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 1: I guess the last thing I wanted to say, and

1173
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit of repetition of what we've

1174
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: already said. But this is coming at it more from

1175
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 1: like a screenwriting point of view, not that I have

1176
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: a master's degree or anything, because I would hate to

1177
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 1: bring that up.

1178
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 2: Oh. Also I thought Ellen Paige in this, I was like, Wow,

1179
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 2: gradical visibility. Caitlyn's going to be thrilled.

1180
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. I did appreciate that. Anyways, So the like, okay,

1181
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 1: so a movie generally has an external struggle and an

1182
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 1: internal struggle. Here's just many mini screenwriting lesson for all

1183
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:05,040
Speaker 1: of our listeners out there. The external struggle is more

1184
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: or less the outward plot of the movie. So Inception,

1185
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 1: the external struggle is the Inception squad trying to accept

1186
01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: Killian Murphy. The internal struggle of a movie is whatever

1187
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:22,240
Speaker 1: emotional struggle that the protagonist is dealing with which exists

1188
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:27,240
Speaker 1: alongside the external struggle. So in this movie, the internal

1189
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 1: struggle is Cobb dealing with the guilt and regret and

1190
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 1: memories and all that stuff surrounding his wife Mall, which

1191
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:37,759
Speaker 1: I feel like is such a and we've talked about

1192
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 1: this a lot in different episodes of a female character

1193
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 1: whose only function in the story is to be a

1194
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: male character's internal struggle as a way to like further

1195
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 1: characterize the male protagonist, Like she doesn't have any of

1196
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: her own agency or interiority or anything like that. And

1197
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:01,439
Speaker 1: this was like such a I'm example.

1198
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 2: I mean, this is egregious, like an egregious example of

1199
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:11,360
Speaker 2: like very I mean, you couldn't more intentionally take agency

1200
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 2: away from a female character than to make her a

1201
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:19,160
Speaker 2: projection of the male protagonist. Like that's just above and beyond.

1202
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:26,400
Speaker 1: It's comical almost, It's like it's funny, how ridiculous it is.

1203
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, that was That was the last thing really

1204
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:32,560
Speaker 1: that I had on mall.

1205
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 2: Justice for Mary and Cotyard. She's wonderful. Why would you

1206
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:37,840
Speaker 2: do this to her?

1207
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 1: I know, let's take a quick break and then we'll

1208
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 1: come right back and we're back.

1209
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 2: Let's talk Ariadne woo. So I mean, first of all,

1210
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:58,559
Speaker 2: goes with that saying Ellen Page queer icon love her.

1211
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 2: Oh yes, big fan another egregiously named Christopher Nolan character.

1212
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:10,559
Speaker 2: I learned that Ariadne is a mythical reference. Yes, but

1213
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 2: it basically translates to it it's it's a redeemer. Literally

1214
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 2: the Redeemer, Ariadne the Redeemer, and boy does he have

1215
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 2: some follow through on that one that is pretty explicitly

1216
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 2: her purpose in the plot, as we referenced multiple times, Yes,

1217
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 2: there are, I think. Okay, So in that same paper

1218
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 2: I was referencing earlier about film nor our guilt complex, Yeah,

1219
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:40,760
Speaker 2: I sort of agree with the writer in saying that

1220
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 2: Ariadne is kind of an outlier in the Christopher Nolan

1221
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 2: film canon in that, at least on the surface, there's

1222
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:53,679
Speaker 2: a lot of things that Ariadne like has that Christopher

1223
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 2: Nolan would usually only afford to a male character, such

1224
01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 2: as she doesn't die.

1225
01:12:59,600 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 1: This is.

1226
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:04,640
Speaker 2: Such as we know what her job is, and she

1227
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 2: is not defined by being someone's romantic partner or by

1228
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:12,080
Speaker 2: being a mother. It truly is like the most bare

1229
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:15,759
Speaker 2: minimum shit possible. But it's worth saying that this character.

1230
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,880
Speaker 2: And then I guess I haven't seen Insomnia in so long,

1231
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 2: but I guess that there is a character in Insomnia

1232
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:26,280
Speaker 2: who has a similar position of just like extended the

1233
01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:31,560
Speaker 2: basic courtesy of not being a murdered wife.

1234
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 1: Imagine that I.

1235
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:35,599
Speaker 2: Would still, I mean, and we'll talk about like, I

1236
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 2: don't think Ariana is in any way a developed character,

1237
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:44,559
Speaker 2: and she doesn't have as much agency as she should,

1238
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 2: and her storyline is so chained to Leonardo DiCaprio's progress

1239
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 2: as a character. And I think that she is very

1240
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,640
Speaker 2: much I think it is somewhat some. I mean, I

1241
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 2: think it's pretty gender that she is brought in as

1242
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 2: kind of the person to take on his emotional baggage

1243
01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 2: and absolve him of this guilt. Right, that's all very true.

1244
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 2: But we know what her job is, we know what

1245
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:11,680
Speaker 2: her interest is. She isn't brutally murdered. I hate that

1246
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 2: we have to like grasp for these straws, but there

1247
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 2: it is.

1248
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:20,719
Speaker 1: Yes, what struck me very very initially before we even

1249
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 1: before I even like started prepping for this episode or

1250
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 1: anything like that, just kind of thinking back on the movie,

1251
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:31,439
Speaker 1: remembering having seen it in the past, was that she

1252
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:35,479
Speaker 1: is a character who is new to this world of

1253
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:39,200
Speaker 1: infiltrating people's dreams. And one of the functions of her

1254
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:42,880
Speaker 1: character within just the context of the movie is that

1255
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:47,320
Speaker 1: she is a conduit by which the audience receives information

1256
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:49,960
Speaker 1: and exposition about.

1257
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 2: She's your the world.

1258
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:53,879
Speaker 1: She's perhaps the avatar.

1259
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 2: She's your avatar.

1260
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:58,920
Speaker 1: And this is obviously not an uncommon function for a character.

1261
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 1: But but I feel like the optics of one of

1262
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:07,240
Speaker 1: only two female characters in the movie and the only

1263
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: female character on the inception squad not knowing anything and

1264
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: having to be taught everything, like having to have men

1265
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:20,599
Speaker 1: tell her all the stuff that I have mixed feelings

1266
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:22,160
Speaker 1: about it, because on one hand.

1267
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:22,680
Speaker 2: I hate it.

1268
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:25,760
Speaker 1: You do get to see you do get to see

1269
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: how smart she is, how quickly she's able to learn

1270
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 1: and piece things together and like create mazes and complex architecture,

1271
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 1: But it also means that you do have to see

1272
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,920
Speaker 1: a lot of men explaining everything to her, and it

1273
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:40,920
Speaker 1: means that all of the men on the team are

1274
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 1: way more seasoned.

1275
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:44,559
Speaker 2: And experienced exactly than her.

1276
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:46,120
Speaker 1: Even like even.

1277
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:50,719
Speaker 2: Killy and Murphy, who's not even who's being gaslighted, knows

1278
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:51,839
Speaker 2: more than she does.

1279
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:54,840
Speaker 1: Right, he knows more about inception and like extraction than

1280
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 1: she does.

1281
01:15:55,520 --> 01:16:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, even removing gender from the discussion.

1282
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:04,800
Speaker 2: I just always find this to be very obnoxious to

1283
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:07,679
Speaker 2: have to sit through that, you know, because it's literally

1284
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 2: just like, what is the first rule of writing show

1285
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 2: don't tell? But this is just like, yeah, I mean,

1286
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:16,679
Speaker 2: I have this same issue with Harry Potter where it's

1287
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 2: like the whole first movie is just like Harry Potter's like,

1288
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:22,760
Speaker 2: what's this? And then an adult is like, well it's

1289
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 2: that and he's like, oh interesting, and like that is

1290
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:30,879
Speaker 2: the whole movie. I just I don't know it happens

1291
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 2: in Avatar. But also it's the title, so whatever, he's like,

1292
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 2: what's this.

1293
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 1: Well, in a lot of movies with like heavy world building,

1294
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 1: you do need sure to be explained the rule. The

1295
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:46,120
Speaker 1: audience needs to understand the rules of the world, so

1296
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:49,679
Speaker 1: you know, you usually have to have a character act

1297
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:55,280
Speaker 1: as like the proxyed Avatar by which that information gets

1298
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 1: explained to us. So I don't necessarily even have a problem.

1299
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:00,719
Speaker 1: I don't have a problem to that is just a concept.

1300
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 1: But for it to be like the one woman on

1301
01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 1: the team, yeah, is the one who doesn't know anything

1302
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:08,400
Speaker 1: and has to be told of because like, why couldn't

1303
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:12,160
Speaker 1: there have just been another woman in the squad maybe

1304
01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 1: she's the chemist or why couldn't and we'd have a

1305
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 1: woman in stem Yeah, why couldn't like.

1306
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 2: Joseph Gordon Levitt have been the newbie? Like why did

1307
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:22,400
Speaker 2: it have to be a female character, especially with and

1308
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 2: again it's like like you were kind of just saying like,

1309
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:27,559
Speaker 2: if we had more women in the story, this would

1310
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 2: be less of a problem because there would be more

1311
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 2: women in the story. There is only like really one

1312
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:36,840
Speaker 2: and a half women in the story because mal is

1313
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 2: only mau some insteads so right, So it's like, yeah,

1314
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 2: the fact that I got really frustrated. I kept like

1315
01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:46,720
Speaker 2: pausing the movie and like stomping around and being like,

1316
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 2: I'm elm page, what's this, what's this?

1317
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:49,640
Speaker 1: What's this?

1318
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 2: What's this? I forgive you? What's this? Because that's just

1319
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 2: like she forgives them for stuff that she doesn't need

1320
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 2: to and then she's like what's this And it's frustrated

1321
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:03,639
Speaker 2: because we are given Like I don't know, I feel

1322
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:06,679
Speaker 2: like this is a weird phase of Christopher Nolan slowly

1323
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 2: realizing that he keeps doing this, and so I mean,

1324
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:13,720
Speaker 2: I'm this is conjecture, but maybe this is like the

1325
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:16,839
Speaker 2: point in Christopher Nolan's career where he's like, okay, okay, okay,

1326
01:18:17,240 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 2: so I keep killing wives. What if I did that

1327
01:18:21,080 --> 01:18:23,679
Speaker 2: and there was a second woman? Like I think he's

1328
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:27,280
Speaker 2: just kind of messing around with the formula and being like,

1329
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 2: maybe they won't see this if I put this over here,

1330
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 2: you know, he's like the prestige, but but it doesn't work.

1331
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:38,680
Speaker 2: And it's really I like that at least, I mean,

1332
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:41,439
Speaker 2: it's just I always find it really frustrating when you're

1333
01:18:41,479 --> 01:18:46,120
Speaker 2: given the infrastructure speaking as an architect, speaking as a

1334
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:50,840
Speaker 2: guy from five hundred Days of Summer, you have the

1335
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 2: you're being given the like the bones of a character

1336
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 2: that could be really interesting. We know at least some

1337
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:00,400
Speaker 2: things about her. We know that she is good at

1338
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 2: what she does. We know that she's a fast learner,

1339
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,760
Speaker 2: we know that she's interested in all this stuff. But

1340
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:09,000
Speaker 2: then it just kind of like goes nowhere. They only

1341
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:11,240
Speaker 2: characterize her as far as they need to in order

1342
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:14,559
Speaker 2: for her to engage with Leonardo DiCaprio on his terms.

1343
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:18,360
Speaker 2: And most of her agency I do think she has.

1344
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 2: I mean, she certainly has more agency than mal who

1345
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:25,559
Speaker 2: has nothing where like she does, you know, choose to

1346
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:29,160
Speaker 2: kind of she wants to know what is Cobb's deal.

1347
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 2: She is like actively pursuing answers there, but it's about

1348
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:37,599
Speaker 2: but it's just about him, Like all of her agency

1349
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:39,880
Speaker 2: is directly connected to learning more about him.

1350
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:43,120
Speaker 1: The one time that it deviates from that as far

1351
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:45,639
Speaker 1: as I could tell. Maybe there were other small moments,

1352
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:49,760
Speaker 1: but if they were, I didn't even notice where. Toward

1353
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 1: the very end, it seems like they have failed because

1354
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:57,120
Speaker 1: mal came in and killed Killian Murphy. So it's like, well,

1355
01:19:57,240 --> 01:19:57,760
Speaker 1: that was it.

1356
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:00,320
Speaker 2: Then, I don't know why I always feel so bad

1357
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:02,160
Speaker 2: for Killy and Murphy in that moment where I'm like,

1358
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:05,080
Speaker 2: he does not know what's going on. He's like, where

1359
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:08,559
Speaker 2: am I? And then he just's like really suddenly murdered

1360
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:13,360
Speaker 2: by Mary and courtyard. And it's kind of funny because

1361
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:15,960
Speaker 2: Ellen Page is like, don't let her kill Kelly and Murphy.

1362
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:19,160
Speaker 2: He's so confused, and Leonardo DiCaprio is like, I don't know,

1363
01:20:19,280 --> 01:20:21,400
Speaker 2: maybe I'll let her do it, and then she does it.

1364
01:20:21,439 --> 01:20:26,759
Speaker 2: I don't know. I always laugh and any guy.

1365
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:33,400
Speaker 1: In any case, it is Arid's idea to go into

1366
01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:36,200
Speaker 1: the next level, go into a deeper level so that

1367
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:39,599
Speaker 1: they can keep going and succeed in incepting Fisher.

1368
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:43,280
Speaker 2: That's true. That's true. I had I hadn't. Yeah, we'll

1369
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:45,439
Speaker 2: give her credit for that. That's smart, and that's and

1370
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:49,200
Speaker 2: it's only because she had that outsider's perspective too, right,

1371
01:20:49,280 --> 01:20:50,439
Speaker 2: So that's fair.

1372
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:53,479
Speaker 1: I appreciate that, but that was kind of the only

1373
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:57,519
Speaker 1: moment where she's really given any agency that impacts the

1374
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 1: narrative in a way that is not directly tied to

1375
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:02,679
Speaker 1: Cob and his like guilt.

1376
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:06,000
Speaker 2: Also, I didn't like the moment where it's kind of

1377
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 2: I mean, this is nitpicky, but there's a moment where

1378
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 2: kind of like DiCaprio implies that she's a real one

1379
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:16,519
Speaker 2: for not assuming that he killed his wife. Like he's like,

1380
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,080
Speaker 2: you're not like the other girls. You didn't assume that

1381
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:22,040
Speaker 2: I murdered my wife. Like, I just thought that was

1382
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:26,719
Speaker 2: a really annoying Dialogue edition where he's like, yeah, everyone

1383
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:29,400
Speaker 2: thinks I killed my wife. What the hell? And then

1384
01:21:29,640 --> 01:21:31,960
Speaker 2: she doesn't really say anything for a second, and he's like, yeah,

1385
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:34,719
Speaker 2: thanks for not assuming I killed my wife. That's a first.

1386
01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:37,479
Speaker 2: And you're like, she's just like, you did kill your wife.

1387
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 1: She's like, go to therapy, bro, what are you talking.

1388
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:43,640
Speaker 2: DiCaprio's whole thing is I didn't kill my wife, but

1389
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:46,520
Speaker 2: like he absolutely did kill this what one hundred.

1390
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:51,519
Speaker 1: Percent indirected though it may have been, he is he

1391
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:54,000
Speaker 1: is one million percent responsible for her death.

1392
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:58,519
Speaker 2: In a court of law culpable, Yeah, culpable, he did it.

1393
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:02,719
Speaker 2: I would not yeah, let him have his children back. Sorry,

1394
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:03,839
Speaker 2: I just wouldn't.

1395
01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:05,599
Speaker 1: They are not safe with him.

1396
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 2: Those kids, Okay, those kids imagine being older and then

1397
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:11,920
Speaker 2: like finding that out. I would have been like I

1398
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:14,160
Speaker 2: wish they had left me with Grandma.

1399
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 1: Like right, this is bullshit seriously.

1400
01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:21,599
Speaker 2: Also, oh wait, okay, sorry, one more annoying aside. Can

1401
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:24,640
Speaker 2: you imagine I wonder okay, what's your opinion on this,

1402
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:27,280
Speaker 2: because not all of the effects in this movie have

1403
01:22:27,439 --> 01:22:30,800
Speaker 2: aged super well it's been ten years. Some moments you're

1404
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:33,960
Speaker 2: just like, oh, that's a computer. But the okay, the

1405
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:38,280
Speaker 2: kids running away, are they like photoshopped in running away?

1406
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:43,600
Speaker 2: Or did they like shuttle these kids all around Burbank

1407
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 2: for weeks to just run away.

1408
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 1: I would imagine that they green screened that. So they

1409
01:22:52,920 --> 01:22:54,719
Speaker 1: just put the kids in front of a green screen,

1410
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:58,240
Speaker 1: showed them running away, and then just like imposed that

1411
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:00,639
Speaker 1: image of them. Because you see that, I'm like, that's

1412
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:04,040
Speaker 1: really basically every scene in the movie except for like

1413
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:08,120
Speaker 1: the snow, like the blizzard fucking world.

1414
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:11,920
Speaker 2: Not green screen. That is so much work for those

1415
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 2: poor kids that aren't even allowed to show their faces

1416
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:18,479
Speaker 2: until the end of the movie as a plot point.

1417
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:20,640
Speaker 2: I also couldn't see like what he was like, I

1418
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:22,599
Speaker 2: can't look at my children's face. I'm like, just go

1419
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:23,320
Speaker 2: to therapy.

1420
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:26,880
Speaker 1: Ugh, my guy.

1421
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:29,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, I wouldn't give him his kids back.

1422
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 2: I don't think he should have gotten his kids back. Sorry,

1423
01:23:31,479 --> 01:23:33,759
Speaker 2: no career change, honey.

1424
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:37,639
Speaker 1: A couple other things I wanted to say about Ellen

1425
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,680
Speaker 1: Page's character. This is an action movie. There's a lot

1426
01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:42,599
Speaker 1: of action. There's a lot of fighting, there's a lot

1427
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:45,720
Speaker 1: of chase sequences. But she does not get to participate

1428
01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:50,439
Speaker 1: in any of that. And it's like, well, you could argue, okay,

1429
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 1: well she's not a trained fighter, she doesn't have any

1430
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:55,559
Speaker 1: of that training. But even so, again the optics of

1431
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:57,600
Speaker 1: like having your one female character not be able to

1432
01:23:57,640 --> 01:24:00,280
Speaker 1: participate in any of the fighting except for that, except

1433
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:01,800
Speaker 1: for the scene at the very end when she does

1434
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:04,960
Speaker 1: pick up the gun and shoot mal but other than that,

1435
01:24:05,160 --> 01:24:06,719
Speaker 1: like she's which.

1436
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:08,400
Speaker 2: Does pass the Bexel test, Yes.

1437
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:12,200
Speaker 1: Yes it does. When a woman shoots another woman, it

1438
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:17,200
Speaker 1: passes the Bechdel test. No, but well, bullets are men,

1439
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:21,160
Speaker 1: so I think I think maybe not wow phallic?

1440
01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:25,640
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, no, I agree. I mean the fact that like,

1441
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:29,200
Speaker 2: and this is like, I mean, we're really like getting

1442
01:24:29,439 --> 01:24:31,960
Speaker 2: into it here, but I feel like that's what Christopher

1443
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:35,320
Speaker 2: Nola does, so it's fine we can too. But the

1444
01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:38,240
Speaker 2: fact that, like the only woman in the movie who's

1445
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:40,479
Speaker 2: allowed to do combat is a projection of a man,

1446
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 2: is my god, my god, like because it's not like

1447
01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:49,559
Speaker 2: regular like mal when she's herself and she is like

1448
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 2: prior to her death, she doesn't fight. It's only when

1449
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 2: she is in the dream world as Leonardo DiCaprio's hyper

1450
01:24:57,080 --> 01:25:01,479
Speaker 2: mask projection that she is a skin killer, you know,

1451
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:04,520
Speaker 2: Like it's just like, yes, I'm so, I'm so annoyed

1452
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:08,800
Speaker 2: by by all of us, I think, I mean, yeah,

1453
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:12,559
Speaker 2: I mean, Ellen Page also deserves better than this part. Also,

1454
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 2: there was like, okay, genuinely I can never get a

1455
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:20,080
Speaker 2: read on, like are they trying to like push some

1456
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:24,320
Speaker 2: sort of like subtle love story with Joseph Gordon Levitt

1457
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:27,519
Speaker 2: and Ellen Page in this Because if so, I don't,

1458
01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:30,000
Speaker 2: like I've never been less compelled by anything in my

1459
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:33,439
Speaker 2: entire life. But they keep putting them together and like

1460
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 2: saying cute things to each other. I'm like, am I

1461
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:38,280
Speaker 2: supposed to like want more? Of this because I just like,

1462
01:25:38,920 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 2: I just don't I.

1463
01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:44,799
Speaker 1: Never thought that. The only thing to me that would

1464
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:47,760
Speaker 1: indicate that a little bit is that scene where they're

1465
01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:49,719
Speaker 1: I think they're in like the second level of the dream.

1466
01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:54,559
Speaker 1: Cobb has just told Killian Murphy this thing, and they're

1467
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 1: in like the lobby of a hotel or something, I think,

1468
01:25:57,040 --> 01:26:00,799
Speaker 1: and Killian Murphy has just learned that he is currently

1469
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 1: in a dream, so like now his projections of his

1470
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 1: subconscious are like basically trying to figure out who who's

1471
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,439
Speaker 1: the dreamer or like who are the outsiders? So they

1472
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:15,439
Speaker 1: all look at Ellen Page and Joseph Gordon Lovett and

1473
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:20,080
Speaker 1: He's like, oh no, here, maybe it'll distract them if

1474
01:26:20,120 --> 01:26:22,160
Speaker 1: we kiss each other, give me a kiss.

1475
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 2: I feel like that is like a I don't know,

1476
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:27,519
Speaker 2: I thought that. And the only reason that I'm kind

1477
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:29,880
Speaker 2: of willing to go with like I think that we

1478
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:34,080
Speaker 2: were supposed to like want that is because Christopher Nolan

1479
01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:38,840
Speaker 2: is so profoundly unskilled at writing anything like romantic that

1480
01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 2: isn't traumatic. Like he can't just write people that have

1481
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:44,000
Speaker 2: a crush on each other. It's just not what he does.

1482
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:48,160
Speaker 2: I think we were supposed to be into that it's

1483
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:51,559
Speaker 2: either way. It's like if so, that's even more insulting

1484
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:53,439
Speaker 2: to Ariadne to think that you need to like try

1485
01:26:53,479 --> 01:26:57,200
Speaker 2: to like force a love interest on top of all

1486
01:26:57,240 --> 01:27:00,200
Speaker 2: the you know, disservices she's that are being done. But

1487
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:02,960
Speaker 2: it barely reads because she and Joseph Gordon Lovett just

1488
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:07,320
Speaker 2: like couldn't have less chemistry. It's given like two seconds

1489
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:07,839
Speaker 2: of attention.

1490
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:10,840
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, kind of I can maybe see that, but

1491
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:13,160
Speaker 1: it also it never occurred to me that they were

1492
01:27:13,200 --> 01:27:16,639
Speaker 1: trying to like push a little like romance between them.

1493
01:27:16,760 --> 01:27:21,240
Speaker 1: If anything, I thought that Joseph Gordon Lovitt and Tom

1494
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:25,080
Speaker 1: Hardy were like flirting. They were like nagging each other

1495
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:26,720
Speaker 1: a lot. But I'm like, you guys are flirting and

1496
01:27:26,760 --> 01:27:30,040
Speaker 1: you should just fucking kiss already, like just make it out.

1497
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 2: And I like want that, And I feel like that

1498
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,799
Speaker 2: was all performance, Like that was like the way they performed.

1499
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:39,040
Speaker 2: It was like you're like, Okay, I like this more.

1500
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:42,160
Speaker 2: I like this way. Mmm, this is good. Chris. Ever, no,

1501
01:27:42,240 --> 01:27:44,559
Speaker 2: I mean this kind of brings me to It's not

1502
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:47,519
Speaker 2: a point that I don't know I was. I was

1503
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:51,240
Speaker 2: thinking about it because subtle plug, I guess, But like

1504
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:55,320
Speaker 2: I have been watching Maggie may Fish's Friend of the Cast,

1505
01:27:55,960 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 2: her YouTube series on the works of Zack Snyder and

1506
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:04,280
Speaker 2: how Zack Snyder and I think Christopher Nolan falls into

1507
01:28:04,280 --> 01:28:07,760
Speaker 2: this exact same thing, and I've seen this criticism of him. Coincidentally,

1508
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:11,639
Speaker 2: they also have done Batman's whatever. But like Christopher Nolan

1509
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:19,600
Speaker 2: is a profoundly sexless director, Like his work features couples

1510
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:23,640
Speaker 2: but only at the worst moment of their entire lives.

1511
01:28:24,400 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 2: And it's just like for all of the heteronormative couples

1512
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:32,320
Speaker 2: you see in his movies over and over and over,

1513
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:38,120
Speaker 2: it's profoundly there's no intimacy in it. Really that isn't

1514
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:42,479
Speaker 2: rooted in trauma. And Zack Snyder's film canon is really

1515
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 2: similar to the point where it's definitely not in this movie.

1516
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:48,960
Speaker 2: But I think that each of them have each done

1517
01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:52,280
Speaker 2: one sex scene. I know Zack Snyder's was Watchman and

1518
01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:56,320
Speaker 2: it's so hard to watch, but like, just it's very

1519
01:28:56,360 --> 01:29:00,000
Speaker 2: bizarre like these and they both did sexless Batman movie

1520
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:04,040
Speaker 2: that are rooted in you know, mommy girlfriend, trauma. It's like,

1521
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:07,160
Speaker 2: just let a woman direct something, please, for the love

1522
01:29:07,200 --> 01:29:10,880
Speaker 2: of God, It's just so strange. That's just more of

1523
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:17,080
Speaker 2: an observation. It's I don't know, just the most traumatic

1524
01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:21,400
Speaker 2: moments of a relationship are all that gets the worst,

1525
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:23,719
Speaker 2: which is why it's like they if he was trying

1526
01:29:23,720 --> 01:29:25,599
Speaker 2: to write in a cute moment that sort of hit

1527
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:28,639
Speaker 2: the cutting room floor for two other characters, it falls

1528
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:31,599
Speaker 2: completely felt flat, and it's confusing because you're like, Christopher

1529
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:34,760
Speaker 2: Nolan can't do something that's just like kind of cute.

1530
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:38,360
Speaker 1: He does not have the skills. Well, kind of going

1531
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 1: back to Ariadne, where in my list of like very

1532
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:47,280
Speaker 1: bare minimum things this movie does that are like I

1533
01:29:47,280 --> 01:29:50,800
Speaker 1: guess not negative and its like representation of women, but

1534
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:54,360
Speaker 1: like again bare minimum or like neutral I wrote down

1535
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:58,759
Speaker 1: in my notes. Well, at least Ellen Page's character isn't

1536
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:02,320
Speaker 1: poised as the romantic interest for any of the men,

1537
01:30:02,439 --> 01:30:05,479
Speaker 1: because again I did not interpret like the movie attempting

1538
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:09,240
Speaker 1: to push her and Joseph Gordnon Levett together at all.

1539
01:30:09,280 --> 01:30:12,320
Speaker 2: Curious about what our listeners think, because yeah, I've heard

1540
01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:15,559
Speaker 2: differing opinions on that where I don't know, I texted.

1541
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:19,600
Speaker 2: I texted people about it because I'm like, am I

1542
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:23,280
Speaker 2: totally misreading this? Or and then some people were like, no,

1543
01:30:23,320 --> 01:30:24,720
Speaker 2: I thought I was supposed to think that, and then

1544
01:30:24,800 --> 01:30:28,200
Speaker 2: other people were like never picked up on it. I

1545
01:30:28,240 --> 01:30:30,880
Speaker 2: wonder I would be curious if there is like if

1546
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 2: previous drafts of this movie were kind of pushing it,

1547
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:37,680
Speaker 2: because it seems like what we have might possibly be

1548
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:40,759
Speaker 2: remnants of something else. That's my theory.

1549
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:45,680
Speaker 1: I downloaded this script, Brag, and while I did not

1550
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:48,280
Speaker 1: read it because it is eight thousand pages long, no

1551
01:30:48,760 --> 01:30:55,040
Speaker 1: thank you, I did do like control f to find

1552
01:30:55,040 --> 01:30:58,280
Speaker 1: if the word kiss appears in the script, because I

1553
01:30:58,280 --> 01:31:00,600
Speaker 1: wanted to see if that scene where he where like

1554
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:03,000
Speaker 1: Joseph Gordon love It's like give me a kiss quick,

1555
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:05,799
Speaker 1: it'll distract them or whatever, if that is in the script,

1556
01:31:05,840 --> 01:31:08,160
Speaker 1: and it does not appear to be. I read that

1557
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:11,320
Speaker 1: scene and that's not even in the script. So that

1558
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:14,200
Speaker 1: either just got thrown in on that day of shooting

1559
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:16,920
Speaker 1: or something, or you know.

1560
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:18,280
Speaker 2: Like the Red Mystery.

1561
01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:21,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think I think maybe it's just that

1562
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:24,240
Speaker 1: like that got wedged in at the last moment.

1563
01:31:24,280 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 2: We're just like Christopher put in something, put in something flirty,

1564
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:31,880
Speaker 2: like this is the least flirty movie I've ever seen, Christopher,

1565
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:36,120
Speaker 2: and then he's like, make someone kiss it. I don't

1566
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:36,960
Speaker 2: know how a joke.

1567
01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:41,280
Speaker 1: It's like, women won't want to see this movie unless

1568
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:43,839
Speaker 1: there's a kiss in it, so throw in a kiss.

1569
01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:46,600
Speaker 1: God damn it, Chris.

1570
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 2: Your movies aren't flirty enough. And he's like, oh rats,

1571
01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:53,479
Speaker 2: Like it's just I mean, no one's coming to Christopher

1572
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:56,760
Speaker 2: Nolan for like even a compelling love story, like just

1573
01:31:57,080 --> 01:31:59,200
Speaker 2: it's just not why we show up for him. We

1574
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:03,160
Speaker 2: keep showing up because of Hans Zimmer.

1575
01:32:03,320 --> 01:32:10,479
Speaker 1: Possibly the other bare minimum thing I wrote down as

1576
01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:14,560
Speaker 1: it pertains to Ellen Page's character, which is more syllables

1577
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:18,360
Speaker 1: than Ariadne. But I don't, I can't. I keep not

1578
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:20,800
Speaker 1: being able to say that name, Ariadne.

1579
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:24,120
Speaker 2: I mean, it's an unusual name, and it's also it

1580
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:30,280
Speaker 2: is so like Maul and Ariadne are so freshman year

1581
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:37,280
Speaker 2: in film school name choices. It kills me. So yeah.

1582
01:32:38,439 --> 01:32:41,760
Speaker 1: But anyway, the other like bare minimum thing is at

1583
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:47,800
Speaker 1: least the male characters around her notice and acknowledge that

1584
01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:50,920
Speaker 1: she does a good job. Yes, there's a few different

1585
01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 1: lines of dialogue that I wrote down where Cobb says

1586
01:32:54,080 --> 01:32:56,880
Speaker 1: to Arthur, he says, I've never seen someone pick it

1587
01:32:56,960 --> 01:33:01,280
Speaker 1: up so fast about Ellen Page. At one point Cobb says,

1588
01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:06,360
Speaker 1: kind of apropos of nothing. He's just like a terrific work.

1589
01:33:06,400 --> 01:33:10,240
Speaker 1: By the way, Yeah that is nice. And then right

1590
01:33:10,240 --> 01:33:13,920
Speaker 1: before she gets recruited Michael Caine, Cobb says like I

1591
01:33:14,040 --> 01:33:17,320
Speaker 1: need someone who's as good as Cob is, like I

1592
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 1: need someone who's as good as I was, And Michael

1593
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:21,959
Speaker 1: Kaine's like, I have someone even.

1594
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:29,160
Speaker 2: Better or I have someone better. Quick recommendation. If you

1595
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:35,439
Speaker 2: haven't ever seen Michael Caine's acting lesson tape from the eighties.

1596
01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:37,599
Speaker 1: On you the blink, the don't blink you never blink?

1597
01:33:37,720 --> 01:33:42,880
Speaker 2: Doink? There it is like very funny and also like

1598
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:46,280
Speaker 2: low key, kind of helpful. I and now every time

1599
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:49,920
Speaker 2: I'm on camera, I'm like, blink with intention, Jamie you

1600
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:52,840
Speaker 2: you heard the man wow, blink with intention. And so

1601
01:33:52,880 --> 01:33:55,160
Speaker 2: whenever Michael Kaine blinks, it's at a moment where his

1602
01:33:55,280 --> 01:33:59,880
Speaker 2: character is feeling vulnerable. Always I always notice, imagine that

1603
01:34:00,160 --> 01:34:01,919
Speaker 2: in this movie for fourteen seconds.

1604
01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:04,160
Speaker 1: Yes, and too bad. He loves Brexit.

1605
01:34:04,240 --> 01:34:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah so whoopsies, he loves Brexit. He hates blinking, and

1606
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:14,519
Speaker 2: that's just this unfortunate truth. But yeah, no, I agree.

1607
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 2: I was a little leery on the I've never seen

1608
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:20,720
Speaker 2: someone pick it up so fast, because I that like,

1609
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:23,880
Speaker 2: it didn't cross the line, fortunately, but sometimes I worry

1610
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:27,840
Speaker 2: about like kind of like when a woman joins the

1611
01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:30,919
Speaker 2: squad and they're like, wait a second, she can do something.

1612
01:34:31,120 --> 01:34:33,599
Speaker 2: I'm shocked, but it did, but it kind of stayed

1613
01:34:33,640 --> 01:34:35,519
Speaker 2: on the other side of the line of like they

1614
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:38,519
Speaker 2: were genuinely impressed that anyone could pick this up so quickly.

1615
01:34:38,960 --> 01:34:41,400
Speaker 2: They appreciated her work, and then when she made the

1616
01:34:41,439 --> 01:34:44,799
Speaker 2: suggestion to go down deeper, they take that suggestion seriously

1617
01:34:44,880 --> 01:34:46,679
Speaker 2: and they take it on and no one else takes

1618
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:49,160
Speaker 2: credit for it, and just like yeah, yeah, like she

1619
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:54,920
Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan is such a strange writer where I'm like,

1620
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 2: did he just treat like He's just like, oh, just

1621
01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:01,439
Speaker 2: treat this character with the you would treat a male character.

1622
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:03,439
Speaker 2: But then no, because she has to do the emotional

1623
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:05,720
Speaker 2: baggage stuff. I don't know. I don't know.

1624
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:09,439
Speaker 1: I have a couple other things that are not at

1625
01:35:09,439 --> 01:35:12,200
Speaker 1: all gender specific but that I thought were very funny.

1626
01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:13,840
Speaker 2: Go for it.

1627
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:19,000
Speaker 1: This movie only works under the assumption that the idea

1628
01:35:19,040 --> 01:35:21,559
Speaker 1: that you have during a dream. If you have a

1629
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:24,599
Speaker 1: dream and you come up with an idea of an

1630
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:28,240
Speaker 1: idea happens in your dream, that that idea will stick

1631
01:35:28,280 --> 01:35:32,519
Speaker 1: with you under any circumstance, and it might change everything

1632
01:35:32,560 --> 01:35:35,400
Speaker 1: about who you are as a person. Because, like was

1633
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:37,519
Speaker 1: watching this movie, I was like, this would be like

1634
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:42,080
Speaker 1: if I woke up from a dream where in the

1635
01:35:42,160 --> 01:35:47,360
Speaker 1: dream I started a podcast about the movie Inception, and

1636
01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:49,639
Speaker 1: then I wake up and I'm like, oh my gosh,

1637
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:52,200
Speaker 1: I have to start a podcast about the movie Inception.

1638
01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:54,200
Speaker 1: I you know, I had a dream about that, so

1639
01:35:54,240 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 1: I guess I have to do it, Like.

1640
01:35:57,479 --> 01:36:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, you are just behold into every lark

1641
01:36:01,040 --> 01:36:05,400
Speaker 2: that you're subconscious, like imagine the most bizarre dreams you've

1642
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 2: ever had, and then being like, well I guess, then,

1643
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:10,960
Speaker 2: well I guess I have to do it. Like I

1644
01:36:11,040 --> 01:36:14,599
Speaker 2: used to have this really scary recurring dream about Bob

1645
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:17,760
Speaker 2: Saggat on a trampoline where he would be like, get

1646
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:21,000
Speaker 2: on the trampoline, Get on the trampoline. Like it was

1647
01:36:21,120 --> 01:36:23,200
Speaker 2: just a recurring dream I have when I was a kid,

1648
01:36:23,280 --> 01:36:25,280
Speaker 2: when they used to be re airing a lot of

1649
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:30,040
Speaker 2: reruns of Full House on ABC Family, but it would

1650
01:36:30,080 --> 01:36:32,680
Speaker 2: just be Bob Saggot on a trampoline in my backyard.

1651
01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:34,840
Speaker 2: We didn't even have a trampoline, but he was like,

1652
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:37,080
Speaker 2: get on the trampoline, Get on the trampoline. And I

1653
01:36:37,120 --> 01:36:39,280
Speaker 2: would always be like if something if I get on

1654
01:36:39,280 --> 01:36:42,600
Speaker 2: this trampoline, something horrible's gonna happen. It's like if I

1655
01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:44,439
Speaker 2: woke up and I was like, I have to get

1656
01:36:44,479 --> 01:36:46,800
Speaker 2: a trampoline and I need to get Bob Saggott to

1657
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:50,439
Speaker 2: your stat and investigate this.

1658
01:36:50,880 --> 01:36:53,479
Speaker 1: I mean, now is as good a time as any

1659
01:36:53,520 --> 01:36:56,520
Speaker 1: to announce that I am going to start a podcast

1660
01:36:56,720 --> 01:36:58,760
Speaker 1: about the movie Inception I had a dream about. I

1661
01:36:58,840 --> 01:36:59,360
Speaker 1: have to do it.

1662
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:04,400
Speaker 2: I am literally Bob Saggett is on a Spirit Airlines

1663
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:08,759
Speaker 2: flight here right now to find out what was going

1664
01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:10,720
Speaker 2: on there. And that I mean, it's like, I know,

1665
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:13,040
Speaker 2: I know that dreams can be very profound, but the

1666
01:37:13,080 --> 01:37:19,400
Speaker 2: assumption that all dreams are profound is ridiculous and very funny.

1667
01:37:20,000 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 2: That's also, okay. A quick thing I had was that

1668
01:37:23,600 --> 01:37:29,719
Speaker 2: like the Killian Murphy thing, the whole the corny levels

1669
01:37:29,840 --> 01:37:34,280
Speaker 2: of him holding his his like evil dad's hand and

1670
01:37:34,320 --> 01:37:36,760
Speaker 2: he's the evil son, and the dad is like, I

1671
01:37:36,800 --> 01:37:40,040
Speaker 2: wish you just were a different evil than me, and

1672
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:43,559
Speaker 2: he's like he's just like Rich boy crying. You're just

1673
01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:46,759
Speaker 2: like I felt it the first time I watched the movie.

1674
01:37:46,880 --> 01:37:50,599
Speaker 2: I feel it now. I'm like, I could not care

1675
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:55,800
Speaker 2: less about whatever is happening here with the billionaires. And

1676
01:37:55,840 --> 01:37:59,000
Speaker 2: they're like, how do we approach an oil fortue? You're like,

1677
01:37:59,160 --> 01:38:04,400
Speaker 2: I don't care? Who is this character? Like, oh my god?

1678
01:38:04,479 --> 01:38:07,240
Speaker 2: Could we just like let Ellen Page do something else?

1679
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:13,200
Speaker 1: Like uh yeah, Well. One of my other things exactly

1680
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:15,920
Speaker 1: it's in every movie, is it turns out well. One

1681
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:19,360
Speaker 1: of the other things I wrote down was inception is

1682
01:38:19,439 --> 01:38:23,360
Speaker 1: what like uber rich people do with their money to

1683
01:38:23,400 --> 01:38:28,479
Speaker 1: get richer, because like Sido buys an airline so that

1684
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:31,880
Speaker 1: they can incept Killian Murphy like, why not just use

1685
01:38:31,920 --> 01:38:33,960
Speaker 1: the joke? And yeah, He's like, huhu, it would be

1686
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:35,360
Speaker 1: I just thought it would be cleaner if I just

1687
01:38:35,400 --> 01:38:38,160
Speaker 1: bought the whole airline, which, by the way, I hope

1688
01:38:38,240 --> 01:38:39,760
Speaker 1: that flight attendant.

1689
01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:41,600
Speaker 2: They said that they bought her. First of all. They

1690
01:38:41,600 --> 01:38:43,559
Speaker 2: said we had to buy a flight attendant, as if

1691
01:38:43,720 --> 01:38:45,880
Speaker 2: it was just like something people do.

1692
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:50,200
Speaker 1: It's like, I hope they paid her. Well, I like

1693
01:38:50,479 --> 01:38:54,080
Speaker 1: why wouldn't Why would they? Like now she has dirt

1694
01:38:54,160 --> 01:38:57,760
Speaker 1: on you guys, Like why wouldn't you just have one of.

1695
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 2: The other She saw that story to variety right. Also,

1696
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:04,519
Speaker 2: they live in la I don't know why I found

1697
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:06,960
Speaker 2: that detail to be obnoxious, But at the end they're like,

1698
01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:10,880
Speaker 2: you're about to land in La Baby, Like I'm like

1699
01:39:11,160 --> 01:39:14,320
Speaker 2: Leona DiCaprio's is like landing at his house, like what

1700
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:16,160
Speaker 2: are you what?

1701
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:19,760
Speaker 1: And then he's like, got off the plane at lax

1702
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:21,040
Speaker 1: and with a dream.

1703
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:26,360
Speaker 2: And a color. Welcome to the land of famouscess. Is

1704
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:29,479
Speaker 2: he gonna fit in? We don't know?

1705
01:39:32,439 --> 01:39:35,360
Speaker 1: Something something about Stiletto's.

1706
01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:37,760
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's like every school dance I ever

1707
01:39:37,840 --> 01:39:40,799
Speaker 2: went to that song when you play it like volume

1708
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:49,880
Speaker 2: deafening at some point, the butterfly flu that's like Leader

1709
01:39:50,000 --> 01:39:52,920
Speaker 2: DiCaprio reunated with his children, nodding his head like yeah,

1710
01:39:53,080 --> 01:40:06,960
Speaker 2: moving his hips like yeah.

1711
01:40:00,560 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm sweating so much. Okay, So Sido he buys the airline,

1712
01:40:06,160 --> 01:40:09,680
Speaker 1: and it's like, why not just use that money to

1713
01:40:09,840 --> 01:40:14,320
Speaker 1: like bribe Fisher or buy him out of the company,

1714
01:40:14,439 --> 01:40:17,040
Speaker 1: or buy some stock in his company, do something like

1715
01:40:17,280 --> 01:40:20,719
Speaker 1: why are you going through all the someone of doing

1716
01:40:20,760 --> 01:40:23,200
Speaker 1: something that does not sound like it would work at all.

1717
01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 1: Inception does not sound like a thing that would work

1718
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:30,599
Speaker 1: even a little bit, But the movie's so hell bunt

1719
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:33,440
Speaker 1: on convincing you that it is like the most effective.

1720
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:38,040
Speaker 1: Like there's like an idea is the most effective parasite ever.

1721
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:40,880
Speaker 1: Like it's just you can't kill an idea.

1722
01:40:40,880 --> 01:40:44,120
Speaker 2: You have to admit. That's just like Christopher Nolan fully

1723
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:48,720
Speaker 2: jerking himself off, like being like ideas are I mean,

1724
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:52,240
Speaker 2: I see what he's saying, and I understand the reality

1725
01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:55,640
Speaker 2: under it of like a an idea can be very pervasive.

1726
01:40:55,640 --> 01:40:59,080
Speaker 2: But I feel like he's being like the Dark Night

1727
01:40:59,479 --> 01:41:04,720
Speaker 2: changed your life, right, Like I just I don't know,

1728
01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:09,400
Speaker 2: it's it's all, it's all annoying. I really enjoy watching

1729
01:41:09,400 --> 01:41:11,920
Speaker 2: this movie, but it's also so annoying. It's such a

1730
01:41:11,920 --> 01:41:14,280
Speaker 2: weird that's such a Christopher Nolan thing where you're like

1731
01:41:14,600 --> 01:41:18,400
Speaker 2: I'm having a great time, I'm deeply annoyed. I'm like,

1732
01:41:18,439 --> 01:41:21,440
Speaker 2: how dare you make me enjoy this movie.

1733
01:41:21,760 --> 01:41:25,840
Speaker 1: I also think that at the end, when after Killian

1734
01:41:25,920 --> 01:41:29,639
Speaker 1: Murphy has been incepted and he decides to like break

1735
01:41:29,720 --> 01:41:33,160
Speaker 1: up this multi billion dollar empire, I like to think

1736
01:41:33,200 --> 01:41:36,800
Speaker 1: that he just like starts an Etsy store selling his

1737
01:41:36,880 --> 01:41:41,360
Speaker 1: like cross stitches or something, like that, Oh, I know.

1738
01:41:41,400 --> 01:41:45,479
Speaker 2: Like what happens to these people afterwards? Like I don't.

1739
01:41:45,520 --> 01:41:47,320
Speaker 2: I mean, if I were Ellen Page, I would just

1740
01:41:47,360 --> 01:41:49,800
Speaker 2: I'm like, I have no allegiance to these people. I'm

1741
01:41:49,800 --> 01:41:51,799
Speaker 2: gonna just write a tell all, sell it to random

1742
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:55,559
Speaker 2: House for a million billion dollars. Like see you, this

1743
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:58,040
Speaker 2: guy killed his wife. Everyone's saying he killed his wife,

1744
01:41:58,080 --> 01:42:02,960
Speaker 2: and guess what, it's true, like he fully did. This

1745
01:42:03,040 --> 01:42:06,320
Speaker 2: movie is weird, but it's fun. I also appreciate. I

1746
01:42:06,320 --> 01:42:09,639
Speaker 2: mean again, it's like I think that with white male

1747
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:15,400
Speaker 2: o tour culture, the negatives outweigh the positives. But to

1748
01:42:15,479 --> 01:42:18,640
Speaker 2: give Christopher Nolan the smallest bit of credit, I appreciate

1749
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:21,799
Speaker 2: that there was not a sequel to this movie because

1750
01:42:21,840 --> 01:42:25,920
Speaker 2: I know people wanted it, and I can't imagine something

1751
01:42:25,960 --> 01:42:28,400
Speaker 2: more exhausting than a sequel to Inception. I'm like, I

1752
01:42:28,439 --> 01:42:31,360
Speaker 2: don't want a single, I don't want another detail about this.

1753
01:42:32,080 --> 01:42:36,919
Speaker 2: Let's just bury it. We're done. I am curious about Tenant.

1754
01:42:37,280 --> 01:42:40,400
Speaker 2: I want to see John David Washington and Robert Pattinson together.

1755
01:42:41,120 --> 01:42:44,200
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I hate that I want that, but

1756
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:48,040
Speaker 2: I do want that. I do I do we fully

1757
01:42:48,160 --> 01:42:50,920
Speaker 2: recognize the At what cost? Of this movie as such

1758
01:42:50,960 --> 01:42:53,200
Speaker 2: an all time high. The fact that Christopher Nolan was

1759
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:59,160
Speaker 2: pushing and seemed like, imagine taking a global pandemic this personally,

1760
01:42:59,840 --> 01:43:06,040
Speaker 2: Like it's just absurd. That said, I really hope And

1761
01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:08,680
Speaker 2: the whole time, I'm like, I just like would love

1762
01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:10,680
Speaker 2: to see this movie at a drive in, Like this

1763
01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:13,960
Speaker 2: would be a great drive in movie. I would happily

1764
01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:15,720
Speaker 2: see this movie at a drive in. Can't we just

1765
01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:20,640
Speaker 2: do that? I don't know? Yeah, Like how deeply selfish

1766
01:43:20,680 --> 01:43:23,880
Speaker 2: and like just uncaring do you have to be to

1767
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:27,000
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, someone might die to see Tenant? Like

1768
01:43:28,240 --> 01:43:32,840
Speaker 2: what are you doing with your life? Don't see Tenant

1769
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:35,760
Speaker 2: in theaters? See it safe? Please and let us know

1770
01:43:35,800 --> 01:43:38,040
Speaker 2: what you think, because it's been getting pretty good reviews.

1771
01:43:39,120 --> 01:43:40,960
Speaker 1: I mean, he makes good movies.

1772
01:43:41,200 --> 01:43:46,559
Speaker 2: Unfortunately he's like it's a Tenant, it's a palindrome. I'm like,

1773
01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:48,519
Speaker 2: I get it, I get it.

1774
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:51,000
Speaker 1: He's so he's a genius.

1775
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:55,160
Speaker 2: He really, I mean is not, but like he he

1776
01:43:55,200 --> 01:43:58,000
Speaker 2: wants you to think, right, No, it's like he's really

1777
01:43:58,080 --> 01:44:00,479
Speaker 2: just like some of his movies feel like he's screaming

1778
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:07,360
Speaker 2: that he's a genius, like into your mouth, like he's

1779
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:11,479
Speaker 2: I will I mean, perhaps to Hans Zimber on this score.

1780
01:44:11,560 --> 01:44:14,519
Speaker 2: It is an iconic score. And we have we have,

1781
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:20,200
Speaker 2: we culturally have not escaped this farting noise in movies

1782
01:44:20,240 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 2: to this day. Ever since Inception came out, the fart

1783
01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:27,519
Speaker 2: noise is now cannon and we can't get rid of it.

1784
01:44:27,680 --> 01:44:32,800
Speaker 1: So it's as ubiquitous as Leonardo DiCaprio being clothed in

1785
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:33,799
Speaker 1: bodies of water.

1786
01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:38,280
Speaker 2: What is going on? I just men need to stop,

1787
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:44,240
Speaker 2: they need to stop. I will I will again just

1788
01:44:44,400 --> 01:44:48,719
Speaker 2: give a shout out to Emma Thomas, who is Christopher

1789
01:44:48,720 --> 01:44:51,719
Speaker 2: Nolan's spouse but also has produced all of his movies.

1790
01:44:51,720 --> 01:44:55,559
Speaker 2: And I would say, well, actually I wouldn't say, wow,

1791
01:44:55,600 --> 01:44:58,280
Speaker 2: I give credit to a man right now. It's ruining

1792
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:02,120
Speaker 2: my life. But I reas listened to friend of the

1793
01:45:02,160 --> 01:45:06,920
Speaker 2: Cast Krarina Longworth's season of You Must Remember This about

1794
01:45:07,240 --> 01:45:10,640
Speaker 2: Polly Platt, which I highly recommend to our listeners. It

1795
01:45:10,840 --> 01:45:14,600
Speaker 2: is all about poly Platt is like this iconic producer

1796
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:20,920
Speaker 2: who her skills were repeatedly discredited and buried because she

1797
01:45:21,160 --> 01:45:24,599
Speaker 2: was always working for men. And so it is kind

1798
01:45:24,600 --> 01:45:28,280
Speaker 2: of this incredible investigation of her life that just reveals

1799
01:45:28,320 --> 01:45:31,559
Speaker 2: exactly how much she did, and she was married for

1800
01:45:31,600 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 2: a while to Peter Bugdanovich, and like how much credit

1801
01:45:35,240 --> 01:45:38,040
Speaker 2: he took from her and all of his good movies

1802
01:45:38,080 --> 01:45:41,599
Speaker 2: were with her, So what does that tell you? Et cetera. Yeah,

1803
01:45:41,640 --> 01:45:44,120
Speaker 2: and Isaac brought up as we were watching this, He's like, Oh,

1804
01:45:44,120 --> 01:45:47,320
Speaker 2: I wonder if like Emma Thomas is potentially a similar

1805
01:45:47,680 --> 01:45:51,679
Speaker 2: Polly Platt story because she's pretty exclusively produced Christopher Nolan movies.

1806
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:55,360
Speaker 2: But we don't really hear her spoken about much. It's

1807
01:45:55,400 --> 01:45:58,760
Speaker 2: not a name that is like brought up. I mean,

1808
01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:02,040
Speaker 2: given how much she's done and how many billions of

1809
01:46:02,080 --> 01:46:06,280
Speaker 2: dollars movies she's produced have generated, I'd like to know

1810
01:46:06,400 --> 01:46:09,880
Speaker 2: more about her. I'm curious. And also being married to

1811
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:12,880
Speaker 2: Christopher Nolan sounds terrible, like I don't but maybe it isn't.

1812
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:13,320
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1813
01:46:13,439 --> 01:46:15,200
Speaker 1: He seems to want you to die.

1814
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:19,479
Speaker 2: He seems to want to kill you. Let's hear more

1815
01:46:19,520 --> 01:46:21,800
Speaker 2: about No, but I am very curious. I want to

1816
01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:25,280
Speaker 2: like give her her due she has. I mean, yeah,

1817
01:46:25,320 --> 01:46:28,000
Speaker 2: she's produced quite literally all of it, and a few

1818
01:46:28,080 --> 01:46:30,680
Speaker 2: non Christopher Nolan movies, but for the most part they

1819
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:35,599
Speaker 2: seem to work together. Yeah, in any case shout out

1820
01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:40,479
Speaker 2: to her, this is I wouldn't say it's a diverse cast.

1821
01:46:40,520 --> 01:46:44,799
Speaker 2: I think that, like, there are non white important cast members,

1822
01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:46,800
Speaker 2: but for the most part, they are relegated to the

1823
01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:51,120
Speaker 2: sidelines with I guess the exception of Ken Wantonabe, who

1824
01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:56,160
Speaker 2: I think he does such an iconic Oh. I just

1825
01:46:56,200 --> 01:46:58,519
Speaker 2: love how he delivers a line where I forget what

1826
01:46:58,600 --> 01:47:00,240
Speaker 2: line it is, but there's like one line where he

1827
01:47:00,280 --> 01:47:02,720
Speaker 2: also like he's on the floor and he has to

1828
01:47:02,760 --> 01:47:06,679
Speaker 2: turn over his shoulder and he's like, this is a dream,

1829
01:47:06,840 --> 01:47:07,160
Speaker 2: isn't it.

1830
01:47:07,280 --> 01:47:09,360
Speaker 1: Or it's like it's just so because he's on the

1831
01:47:09,479 --> 01:47:12,920
Speaker 1: rug and he's like, my face is in polyester right now,

1832
01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:13,799
Speaker 1: not wool.

1833
01:47:13,920 --> 01:47:17,680
Speaker 2: There's a whole monologue about a rug and it's so

1834
01:47:18,800 --> 01:47:21,400
Speaker 2: it's so goofy, but he is great. I mean, that's

1835
01:47:21,400 --> 01:47:24,000
Speaker 2: a this is I mean, and the extended Nolan universe

1836
01:47:24,080 --> 01:47:29,080
Speaker 2: is a very very heteronormative white universe, and this is

1837
01:47:29,360 --> 01:47:33,320
Speaker 2: certainly no exception to that. And this is something that

1838
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:36,760
Speaker 2: we have an ongoing conversation about on this show is

1839
01:47:37,400 --> 01:47:41,920
Speaker 2: that otur culture in general is so white dominated and

1840
01:47:42,000 --> 01:47:46,640
Speaker 2: so male dominated, and Christopher Nolan has perpetuated that in

1841
01:47:47,160 --> 01:47:50,040
Speaker 2: or and is complicit and that in many ways down

1842
01:47:50,120 --> 01:47:52,040
Speaker 2: to I don't know, I mean, I would I would

1843
01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:54,679
Speaker 2: recommend that that people check out that Polyplat mini series

1844
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:58,479
Speaker 2: because they're really I mean, we all know that women

1845
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:02,200
Speaker 2: and people of color are constantly erased from the narratives

1846
01:48:02,320 --> 01:48:06,600
Speaker 2: of I mean of quite literally everything but pertaining to

1847
01:48:06,640 --> 01:48:09,479
Speaker 2: our show, to to movies, and just like hearing the

1848
01:48:09,520 --> 01:48:12,960
Speaker 2: details of that and just like the psychological trauma that

1849
01:48:13,080 --> 01:48:18,120
Speaker 2: comes with that from being repeatedly erased and discredited. It's

1850
01:48:18,160 --> 01:48:23,400
Speaker 2: a wonderful series, and we're gonna see Tenant, but we

1851
01:48:23,439 --> 01:48:28,360
Speaker 2: don't have to, Like, we don't have to. I'm really

1852
01:48:28,400 --> 01:48:30,280
Speaker 2: struggling with how much I want to see Tenant. It

1853
01:48:30,280 --> 01:48:31,759
Speaker 2: makes me feel bad.

1854
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:32,719
Speaker 1: Same.

1855
01:48:32,920 --> 01:48:33,080
Speaker 2: Ah.

1856
01:48:34,120 --> 01:48:38,320
Speaker 1: Well, well, we've had a discussion already a bit about

1857
01:48:38,479 --> 01:48:41,200
Speaker 1: whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test. I

1858
01:48:41,200 --> 01:48:43,040
Speaker 1: think if you were I'm gonna say no, if you

1859
01:48:43,040 --> 01:48:47,000
Speaker 1: were just looking at it on on paper, you could

1860
01:48:47,080 --> 01:48:50,320
Speaker 1: argue that it technically passes because there is that small

1861
01:48:50,360 --> 01:48:54,960
Speaker 1: interaction between Mal and Ariadne, where like Mal's like, what

1862
01:48:55,000 --> 01:48:57,720
Speaker 1: are you doing here? My name is I know who

1863
01:48:57,760 --> 01:48:59,679
Speaker 1: you are. What are you doing here? I'm just trying

1864
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:01,080
Speaker 1: to under stand, bub blah blah, and that goes on

1865
01:49:01,120 --> 01:49:04,439
Speaker 1: for a little while. But it is, like you said, but.

1866
01:49:04,400 --> 01:49:05,760
Speaker 2: It's projection, mall.

1867
01:49:06,080 --> 01:49:09,600
Speaker 1: It's projection, mall. So she's not even real for the

1868
01:49:09,600 --> 01:49:12,880
Speaker 1: rest of that scene, she's like quoting stuff that Cobb

1869
01:49:13,000 --> 01:49:17,320
Speaker 1: had told her. I would say, considering the context of

1870
01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:20,439
Speaker 1: this exchange, I would give it a no. I think again,

1871
01:49:20,479 --> 01:49:23,560
Speaker 1: it's like a technical pass. But yeah, factoring in the context,

1872
01:49:24,080 --> 01:49:25,280
Speaker 1: not a pass anymore.

1873
01:49:26,240 --> 01:49:28,600
Speaker 2: I'm a hard No. I think this is a galaxy.

1874
01:49:28,680 --> 01:49:31,240
Speaker 2: This is like Christopher Nolan, not that I think he

1875
01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:34,439
Speaker 2: knows what the Bechdel test is. I would be shocked,

1876
01:49:34,600 --> 01:49:38,400
Speaker 2: but I mean, prove me wrong, I guess. But yeah, no,

1877
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:42,840
Speaker 2: I think that he I mean no, I'm he does

1878
01:49:42,880 --> 01:49:45,760
Speaker 2: not deserve to get away on a technicality here mm hmm.

1879
01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:50,400
Speaker 2: It's a no, ye're for me? And how okay, let's go.

1880
01:49:50,439 --> 01:49:53,160
Speaker 2: Let's go to the nipples. Nipples scale wow? Wow?

1881
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, so zero to five nipples based on how it

1882
01:49:56,760 --> 01:50:00,160
Speaker 1: represents women's slash, how does it fare from an her

1883
01:50:00,200 --> 01:50:04,240
Speaker 1: sexual feminist point of view? I'll give this I guess one,

1884
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:06,560
Speaker 1: maybe a half even.

1885
01:50:06,680 --> 01:50:07,679
Speaker 2: I was gonna go half.

1886
01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:11,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean there are there's a few very

1887
01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:15,400
Speaker 1: like bare minimum things to like about the way Ariadni

1888
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:18,800
Speaker 1: is characterized, and that she's smart and capable and we

1889
01:50:18,880 --> 01:50:22,840
Speaker 1: know what her job is and her team members appreciate

1890
01:50:22,880 --> 01:50:26,320
Speaker 1: her and never call into question her skills or abilities

1891
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:29,799
Speaker 1: or anything like that. But again that's extremely bare minimum stuff.

1892
01:50:30,160 --> 01:50:35,200
Speaker 1: And most of the time she is doing Cobb's emotional

1893
01:50:35,280 --> 01:50:38,160
Speaker 1: labor for him, and she's being like, you need to.

1894
01:50:38,320 --> 01:50:41,280
Speaker 2: I'm just absolving him for things at random, for things

1895
01:50:41,280 --> 01:50:42,960
Speaker 2: he doesn't deserve to be absolved for.

1896
01:50:43,240 --> 01:50:46,720
Speaker 1: Because plot, I mean, the fact that she picks up

1897
01:50:46,760 --> 01:50:49,599
Speaker 1: on what he's going through, I think is also an

1898
01:50:49,680 --> 01:50:54,200
Speaker 1: extremely gendered thing. It's not necessarily a negative trope.

1899
01:50:53,960 --> 01:50:57,080
Speaker 2: But like right, but it's rooted in something right because.

1900
01:50:56,880 --> 01:50:59,080
Speaker 1: Like the one woman on the team is the one

1901
01:50:59,080 --> 01:51:02,360
Speaker 1: who's able to see that, like, hey, baby, the Cob

1902
01:51:02,439 --> 01:51:05,760
Speaker 1: is being tormented by guilt, and it's like it's like,

1903
01:51:06,080 --> 01:51:09,439
Speaker 1: come on, dude, like you there are other people around you,

1904
01:51:09,960 --> 01:51:13,120
Speaker 1: Like don't you notice that your friend is like going

1905
01:51:13,200 --> 01:51:18,799
Speaker 1: through something like you know that his wife, his wife died,

1906
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:22,200
Speaker 1: Like it's just baffling to me that it's like, well,

1907
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:24,519
Speaker 1: but of course the woman is the one to figure

1908
01:51:24,560 --> 01:51:26,280
Speaker 1: it out anyway.

1909
01:51:26,120 --> 01:51:28,840
Speaker 2: Right, like it is. In fact, that's that's negative for

1910
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:32,040
Speaker 2: everybody too, because it also just implies that the people

1911
01:51:32,120 --> 01:51:35,640
Speaker 2: that Cob is with every day seem to have no

1912
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:38,839
Speaker 2: idea that he's under this intense psychological torture.

1913
01:51:39,320 --> 01:51:44,120
Speaker 1: Yuseff is like administering the sedatives and stuff to enable

1914
01:51:44,200 --> 01:51:47,759
Speaker 1: him to go under on his own time, right to

1915
01:51:47,760 --> 01:51:50,200
Speaker 1: like be with his wife in dream world, Like how

1916
01:51:50,240 --> 01:51:51,840
Speaker 1: does he not know what's going on?

1917
01:51:52,439 --> 01:51:56,840
Speaker 2: Logically he should be the one to know, I think, right, Like,

1918
01:51:57,000 --> 01:51:59,400
Speaker 2: logically he would be the person to pick up on this,

1919
01:52:00,160 --> 01:52:04,519
Speaker 2: the closest access to Leo DiCaprio's actual brain chemistry. But

1920
01:52:05,120 --> 01:52:07,800
Speaker 2: he's busy. He's an avatar, so I don't know.

1921
01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:15,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, there there's some positives and negatives about Ariadne.

1922
01:52:15,880 --> 01:52:19,440
Speaker 1: And then when it comes to mal like woof, it's

1923
01:52:19,479 --> 01:52:20,320
Speaker 1: but again it's like.

1924
01:52:20,400 --> 01:52:22,880
Speaker 2: I think, like the worst of the worst in terms

1925
01:52:22,920 --> 01:52:25,960
Speaker 2: of Christopher Nolan's gender problems.

1926
01:52:25,640 --> 01:52:28,160
Speaker 1: For sure, And it's like, again, if you think about

1927
01:52:28,160 --> 01:52:31,280
Speaker 1: it for two seconds, you realize that all of her behavior,

1928
01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:34,640
Speaker 1: which is being framed by the movie as as like

1929
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:38,880
Speaker 1: villainous and and sabotaging.

1930
01:52:38,160 --> 01:52:42,320
Speaker 2: And bad mall, it's mall A bit mall, Yeah.

1931
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:45,439
Speaker 1: MOI Mal, if you think about it for two seconds,

1932
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:47,760
Speaker 1: you realize, like, well, none of what she's doing is

1933
01:52:47,760 --> 01:52:50,200
Speaker 1: her fault. She was gas lit and then everything else

1934
01:52:50,280 --> 01:52:53,760
Speaker 1: is a projection, So like, we can't blame her for

1935
01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:56,840
Speaker 1: what she's doing. But the movie very very very much

1936
01:52:56,880 --> 01:53:01,200
Speaker 1: wants you to blame her for what she's doing. So

1937
01:53:02,080 --> 01:53:05,599
Speaker 1: it's not good one half nipple. I guess I'll give

1938
01:53:05,640 --> 01:53:08,200
Speaker 1: it to mal because she deserves I'll give it to

1939
01:53:09,120 --> 01:53:11,599
Speaker 1: Marion Cotillard because she deserves better.

1940
01:53:12,200 --> 01:53:16,880
Speaker 2: Yeah she does. She's I just I can't recommend her

1941
01:53:16,920 --> 01:53:20,000
Speaker 2: work enough. I really like her. Same with Ellen Page.

1942
01:53:20,040 --> 01:53:22,000
Speaker 1: God damn it, I love Alan Page.

1943
01:53:22,280 --> 01:53:23,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'll give it a half as well for

1944
01:53:24,040 --> 01:53:27,280
Speaker 2: at least the outlined sketch of a good female character

1945
01:53:27,360 --> 01:53:29,479
Speaker 2: that was not followed through on, and also for not

1946
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:33,800
Speaker 2: murdering her. I really you couldn't ask for less. I

1947
01:53:33,840 --> 01:53:36,519
Speaker 2: will say that this is I mean again, it's like

1948
01:53:36,640 --> 01:53:38,120
Speaker 2: you don't want to hand it to it. But in

1949
01:53:38,160 --> 01:53:41,599
Speaker 2: the context of Christopher and Nolan's career, the fact that

1950
01:53:41,640 --> 01:53:45,200
Speaker 2: Ariane is not brutally murdered is somehow progressed for him,

1951
01:53:46,200 --> 01:53:49,720
Speaker 2: and ugh, what I feel so grut, but like, and

1952
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:53,080
Speaker 2: this does seem to put him on some track to

1953
01:53:53,960 --> 01:53:58,760
Speaker 2: treating his his female characters in ensuing movies, starting with

1954
01:53:58,880 --> 01:54:02,639
Speaker 2: The Dark Knight where he's kind of trying to have

1955
01:54:02,840 --> 01:54:05,599
Speaker 2: Catwoman be empowered and it doesn't work, but it's an attempt,

1956
01:54:05,680 --> 01:54:09,080
Speaker 2: and like, I feel like Inception is kind of an

1957
01:54:09,080 --> 01:54:12,360
Speaker 2: inflection point for him in terms of like making an

1958
01:54:12,360 --> 01:54:15,160
Speaker 2: effort or at least recognizing that he cannot continue to

1959
01:54:15,200 --> 01:54:18,800
Speaker 2: treat his female characters like this. Maybe Tenant will blow

1960
01:54:18,880 --> 01:54:21,519
Speaker 2: up this theory, but it seems like at least around

1961
01:54:21,560 --> 01:54:23,720
Speaker 2: this time, he starts to realize that, like, people are

1962
01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:26,240
Speaker 2: not gonna stop giving you shit for this. You have

1963
01:54:26,320 --> 01:54:28,519
Speaker 2: to find a more compell You need to just like

1964
01:54:28,520 --> 01:54:31,840
Speaker 2: simply take women seriously. Imagine your wife has produced every

1965
01:54:31,840 --> 01:54:35,440
Speaker 2: single movie, like right, how it's It's a bird. So

1966
01:54:36,360 --> 01:54:40,560
Speaker 2: this is I I like, you know, white male a

1967
01:54:40,680 --> 01:54:44,920
Speaker 2: tour culture is very frustrating, and I want to see Tenant.

1968
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:49,000
Speaker 1: So in conclusion, we're going to see Tenant.

1969
01:54:49,960 --> 01:54:53,680
Speaker 2: In conclusion, we're gonna see Tenant, and honestly probably will

1970
01:54:53,720 --> 01:54:55,080
Speaker 2: like it seems like people like it.

1971
01:54:55,200 --> 01:54:57,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm prepared to look.

1972
01:54:57,240 --> 01:55:01,240
Speaker 2: God damn it. In conclusion, God damn it all to hell.

1973
01:55:01,440 --> 01:55:02,560
Speaker 2: To quote Titan.

1974
01:55:04,600 --> 01:55:07,480
Speaker 1: H, I'll be goddamned.

1975
01:55:07,640 --> 01:55:09,320
Speaker 2: I think that's all I have to say. I don't know.

1976
01:55:09,640 --> 01:55:12,720
Speaker 2: I'm so frustrated with myself. I'm like, I want to

1977
01:55:12,760 --> 01:55:16,440
Speaker 2: say Tenant like stop, don't look.

1978
01:55:16,880 --> 01:55:22,520
Speaker 1: We contain multitudes. We are multi dimensional female characters in

1979
01:55:22,600 --> 01:55:27,200
Speaker 1: our own movies, in our own dreams. What if this

1980
01:55:27,240 --> 01:55:29,640
Speaker 1: whole episode was a dream the whole time and we

1981
01:55:29,720 --> 01:55:31,640
Speaker 1: wake up and we're like, fuck, we didn't even actually

1982
01:55:31,720 --> 01:55:32,800
Speaker 1: record anything.

1983
01:55:39,160 --> 01:55:42,760
Speaker 2: Uh So, you know, goddamn it all to hell, and

1984
01:55:43,920 --> 01:55:46,320
Speaker 2: we love you. This has been the episode we Also,

1985
01:55:46,320 --> 01:55:48,240
Speaker 2: you'll notice there wasn't a guest on this episode. It's

1986
01:55:48,320 --> 01:55:52,760
Speaker 2: just just the two of us because I'm still trapped

1987
01:55:52,760 --> 01:55:55,800
Speaker 2: in Wisconsin and we both felt guilty that we liked inception.

1988
01:55:56,840 --> 01:56:01,120
Speaker 2: So in conclusion, you can follow us on all the

1989
01:56:01,160 --> 01:56:04,320
Speaker 2: social media platforms. You can follow us on Twitter at

1990
01:56:04,320 --> 01:56:09,240
Speaker 2: bexel Cast, Instagram at bexel Cast, subscribe tour Patreon aka Matreon,

1991
01:56:09,640 --> 01:56:12,720
Speaker 2: where we will be doing get another exciting month of

1992
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:14,840
Speaker 2: I think we're going to be doing another Llen Page

1993
01:56:14,880 --> 01:56:15,760
Speaker 2: classic this month.

1994
01:56:15,840 --> 01:56:21,520
Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah, so yeah. I pitched Sport Timber Sport timber,

1995
01:56:21,680 --> 01:56:26,160
Speaker 1: which is which we're gonna cover, whip it and stick

1996
01:56:26,200 --> 01:56:29,280
Speaker 1: it because all movies about.

1997
01:56:29,520 --> 01:56:31,040
Speaker 2: I'm calling it it's timber.

1998
01:56:31,200 --> 01:56:34,720
Speaker 1: It's timber because all movies about women's sports have to

1999
01:56:34,760 --> 01:56:36,040
Speaker 1: have it in the title.

2000
01:56:36,240 --> 01:56:40,360
Speaker 2: It's another baffling. It's a trope that's neither here nor there,

2001
01:56:40,480 --> 01:56:45,160
Speaker 2: much like Leonardo DiCaprio underwatering clothes. It's neither here nor there,

2002
01:56:45,200 --> 01:56:46,600
Speaker 2: but it's the thing for some reason.

2003
01:56:47,040 --> 01:56:48,040
Speaker 1: Yeah true.

2004
01:56:48,320 --> 01:56:50,880
Speaker 2: So anyways, you know, head over to the Matreon for that.

2005
01:56:51,440 --> 01:56:53,920
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. You can go to tea public dot com

2006
01:56:53,960 --> 01:56:59,320
Speaker 1: slash the Bechdel Cast for our merch and uh, you know,

2007
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:01,480
Speaker 1: give us a little rate and review. Why don't you

2008
01:57:01,680 --> 01:57:04,480
Speaker 1: on you know, Apple Podcasts or wherever you find your

2009
01:57:04,520 --> 01:57:08,640
Speaker 1: podcast and otherwise, just be really careful that you don't

2010
01:57:08,680 --> 01:57:12,440
Speaker 1: get incepted because obviously it's going to change your entire life,

2011
01:57:12,480 --> 01:57:15,200
Speaker 1: because the ideas that you have in dreams will change

2012
01:57:15,200 --> 01:57:15,959
Speaker 1: you forever.

2013
01:57:17,840 --> 01:57:24,840
Speaker 2: I was like to conclude, rah rah, like, uh, you know,

2014
01:57:25,240 --> 01:57:27,200
Speaker 2: I hope you're hope you're doing well, take care of yourself,

2015
01:57:27,320 --> 01:57:30,960
Speaker 2: help other people, yes, and and you know, at least

2016
01:57:31,000 --> 01:57:33,240
Speaker 2: feel a little bit bad when you watch Tenant.

2017
01:57:33,360 --> 01:57:33,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2018
01:57:34,560 --> 01:57:34,840
Speaker 3: Bye,