WEBVTT - Chris Hayes on the Epic Battle for Our Attention 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.560 Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question. 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:16.280 What's the most valuable commodity in the world today? Oil, gold, 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:22.440 natural gas, crypto, Nope. According to author and MSNBC anchor 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:28.040 Chris Hayes, it's actually attention. Everyone wants it, and the 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:32.400 NonStop competition to get ours is making us less productive 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.440 and in some cases, downright miserable. Chris has a new 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.640 book out. It's called The Sirens Call. He'll explain the 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.000 title in a moment, but here's a tease. Chris says 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.960 that these days, the sirens that tempted Odysseus are now 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:51.040 living in our pockets in the form of smartphones, always 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.200 trying to get our attention and make us lose focus. 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:59.760 Chris explores how technology has changed our lives, rewired our brains, 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.280 and impacted modern politics. Who's able to get our attention, 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.720 even if it's negative attention seems to be winning the day. 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.039 All of this has left us with less time for 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:16.679 deep thinking and real connection, which are fundamental human needs. 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.000 And I'm telling you this just as I'm fighting the 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.960 urge to check the notification on my phone. So here's 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:30.120 Chris Hayes to the rescue. Hey, Chris, it's great to 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.840 be here. Nice to have you my first guest in 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:33.679 our news studio. 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:34.640 This is very exciting. 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:35.520 We even got flowers. 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:37.000 They're beautiful. I love irises. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:41.080 Good good, Well, welcome, and I'm really excited to talk 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:43.720 to you about this new book you've written, called The 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.240 Sirens Call. We'll talk about the title in a minute. 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.600 But how did a book about attention get your attention? 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.840 I think the first place to start is my work life, 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:57.880 which is hosting a television show, which I've been doing 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.160 for over a decade, and the many hours I put 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:03.320 into doing that, and I think this is something that 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.600 you can very much relate to that. A lot of 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.880 what that work is is thinking about the audience's attention, 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.160 what will grab it, what will hold it. You get 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.320 feedback all the time about whether you're doing a good 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.000 or bad job. There were some years there in the 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.079 beginning where I got some pretty bad feedback. 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.600 Really, what was the meanest thing that was said about 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:24.240 you or to you? 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.760 Oh? Well that I mean, people said mean things. But 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.040 there were periods of the show was not rating particularly well, 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.280 and that just kind of everyone knows that when that's happening, 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:37.800 you know it it's like getting a grade that you're 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:43.160 wearing on your forehead all day. And in the craft 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:47.440 of being a TV host, I've had to think a 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:51.560 lot about what does get people's attention, like how do 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.160 I solve for this problem? And I think the craft 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:56.400 of that led me to start thinking very seriously about 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:58.640 how important attention was. I mean, one of the things 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:03.240 that strikes me is certain kind of deaths get more 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:09.200 attention than others. If they're particularly spectacular or gruesome, they 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.920 might attract attention and that might lead to all kinds 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.720 of political and policy changes, whereas those that might be 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:20.880 less visible don't attract that same level of effort or 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.360 policy discussion. And so as I was thinking about this, 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.359 it came to be clear to me that attention was 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.679 this very powerful resource. And then there was also the 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:31.720 part of me that is a creature of the Internet, 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.359 an extremely online person since I've been twelve or thirteen 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.600 or fourteen years old, who spends a lot of time online, 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.320 and between the work life and that part of my life, 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.120 it just became clearer and clearer to me, and particularly 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.560 covering Donald Trump, that attention is kind of the defining 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.800 resource of our age. It's the thing that more and 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:56.560 more people, institutions, companies are chasing. When you have it 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.760 in the aggregate, you have a very valuable thing. There's 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.320 a sense in which it's being taken from us often, 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.600 and that doesn't feel good. And that started me on 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:06.680 the path of writing the book. 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:09.920 The title is called The Sirens Call, and it's based 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:11.960 on the Odyssey, And I want to be honest with you, 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:19.159 your book made me feel very stupid, Chris, But it 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:23.000 was that your goal. How did the sirens tempt Odysseus 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:27.120 and help us all remember? And why this particular title 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:28.240 seems so apt. 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:33.279 It's an amazing portion of the Odyssey, uh, in which 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.920 Odysseus has just been on the island with Circe. She's 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:39.000 a sort of goddess witch, and she says, hey, heads up, 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.039 before you leave a warning. You're going to come to 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:46.640 these sirens and if you they're very dangerous they will 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:47.800 warrible you to death. 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:52.360 And women they're not like ambulances exactly. 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.640 They're women who sing this song that is so irresistible. 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.000 It will pull a ship to the rocks and you'll 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.880 crash and you'll die. And she says, you'll never see 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.520 home again. If you listen to them. But she gives 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.039 them a plan to sort of have his cake and 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.040 eat it too, because she knows this has never said 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.880 explicitly he wants to hear them. So what she says is, look, 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.560 stuff wax in the ears of your men, and then 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.400 bind yourself to the mass to your own ship so 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.400 that you can hear the sirens. But then when they 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.880 try to tempt you to go towards them, your men 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:25.280 will ignore you. And sure enough we have Odysseus bound 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.960 to the mast, and he starts to hear the sirens call, 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.039 and he's like gesturing frantically to his men, like go 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.479 towards that, and they just ignore him, as they've been 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:35.719 instructed to, and the wax is stuffed in their ears, 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.600 and they sail safely past. And that image is a 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.000 very potent one in the Western canon, and I think 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:45.320 it represents the Freudian war between ego and ID, you know, 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.000 temptation and self discipline. 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.720 But in this case, the sirens are our digital device. 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.800 Almost literally, yes they are. It is the sound of 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.120 the notification, It is the buzzing of the. 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:03.039 Phone, and the constant, never ending temptation. 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:07.600 Temptation and entreaties and seduction, the constant portal of delights 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.880 that sits here pulsing on my pocket like Gollum's ring. 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:12.280 Right, it sounded pretty dirty. 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.640 Well, it's funny you say that, because the Sirens always 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.719 have this kind of you know, uh, aspect of sexual lore. 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.400 And when we think about the Internet, you know, there's 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.080 this entire category that we have, even before the Internet, 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.760 for things that attract our attention that we think are 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:39.840 morally dubious, So like the words like lurid and prurient, obscene, tabloid, Right, 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.760 there's this entire category of things where it's like, we 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.600 know they pull out our attention, we don't think they should. 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.400 And in some ways, the more competitive our attention markets get, 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:52.719 the more they go towards that aspect. 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.880 The Sirens call, I'm a generation older than you are, 0:06:55.920 --> 0:07:01.120 and I have been keenly aware of the role that 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:06.880 the Internet and technology has played not only in the 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:11.200 media landscape, but really how we spend our lives. And 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:16.400 it's almost like the frog in the slowly boiling water. 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.720 I mean, I felt it, I saw it, I witnessed it. 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.320 I was aware of it in a way that I 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:26.920 felt like a lot of society was a bit asleep 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:30.920 at the switch as this was transforming our lives. And 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:35.880 I'm curious because I started my career before the internet 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.000 burst onto the scene and your generation younger, and I'm 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:46.600 curious how you have seen the digital world impact your career. 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:49.960 Well, in terms of my career, I mean, the most 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:56.000 obvious part of it is simply that the sheer amount 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:01.800 of things to watch has expanded most infinitely. I mean 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.800 when I started, I started my primetime show in twenty thirteen. 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.200 I remember we had the show creator for House of 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.960 Cards on the show, Bo Willemon, and at the time, 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.600 the conceit of the segment was Netflix is gonna make 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.600 its own show. How about that? Ain't that a kick? Yeah, 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:20.960 here's bau Willhemon. They're going to do an original show. 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.640 So even the idea of streaming didn't exist then. And 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.880 the way that we tended to think about competition, and 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:30.560 I'm sure this was the case of the Today Show, 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.680 Right is the other morning shows? What are the other 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.040 cable news shows on at my hour? And that's fair 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:37.360 enough that matters for. 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.400 And I also thought about NPR, local radio, sound newspapers. 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.720 How are people getting their information? But it was a 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.560 very finite sind choices. 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.200 That's exactly right, and now is it is not hyperbolic 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.280 at all. It is a true statement to say that 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.120 in every instant that you are trying to keep someone's attention, 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.400 you are competing against every single piece of content ever 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.880 generated by humans, basically anywhere in the language of the 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:09.120 people that you're appealing to. I mean, there was, you 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.920 know people. My kid, my six year old, will occasionally 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.720 just start watching some discontinued sitcoms from the mid Auts 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.600 because it's on Disney. I guess I'm like, I didn't 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.000 even know this show existed. She's super into it, and 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.800 it's cool at some level. It has a different life, right, Right, 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.840 But at every instant you're competing for attention, the library 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:36.240 you're competing with has just become so enormous. 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.600 And I think they call it the paradox of choice, 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:39.360 to say. 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.120 Because it's paralyzing at some level, Right, what do I 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:43.160 want to watch? I don't know. 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.880 It's so many, too many choices, yes. 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.120 And that's partly what the algorithm solves for. But the 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.720 algorithm comes with its own problems, right, And then you 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:53.800 also get in this very strange situation this is something 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.760 that's really changed. It's very interesting. It used to be 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:01.440 the case in linear cable television that, again when I 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.840 started a decade ago or more, you would see in 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:06.920 the minute by minutes of Nielsen, you would see the 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.240 numbers go down during commercial break because people don't want 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.600 to watch commercials and they want to switch to another network. 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.720 Now that doesn't happen. The reason is because people are 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:19.880 just like, go to their phone, right, oh, and then 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.000 you come back on. They don't even switch anymore. 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.160 And it's also interesting. Now cable news will say we'll 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.200 be back and they'll have a countdown. 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.439 Clock, or they'll put the commercial with the image that's 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.680 now our innovation. They'll do sports ring met more like 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:34.000 on thirty second timeouts. 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.719 They do that, right, so stand by, we're going to 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.480 be here, and you can actually count down till we're back, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.679 which I think is so interesting that didn't exist when 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:44.520 I was on television, and I. 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:46.880 Think it's it all speaks to the fact that there's 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.120 this kind of jumpiness to our attention that is both 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.079 born of some deep things about our psychologies and the 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.640 way that our brains work, and also something that has 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:01.560 been cultivated in us through the technologies. Right, the shorter 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.240 and shorter your attention span is, or the more interruptions 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.360 you're dealing with, The more acclimated you get to interruption, 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.200 the more that you feel that things that develop slowly 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.800 or move slowly or boring. Right, So there's this relationship 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.280 between supply and demand, between what our desires are and 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:19.199 what we're craving. 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:29.560 If you want to get smarter every morning with a 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.840 breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.240 wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:48.520 Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. You know, 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:53.360 I did a national geographic documentary series and one of 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:57.959 them was focused on our addiction to our digital devices. 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.600 And I spoke to a lot of scientists and this 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:07.839 constant interruption, this constant jumpiness, as you say, prohibits us 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:12.080 from being thinking deeply. It takes about twenty minutes to 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:16.200 get in a fully concentrated state to really focus, to 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:22.200 really activate that, you know, our deep thinking ability, and 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:26.640 the constant interruption is precluding us from doing that, which 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.720 makes you wonder, like, how are people going to think 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:31.920 deeply if they're constantly interrupted? 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:33.920 And this is a I mean, this is a problem 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.280 for anyone that wants to think deeply. I mean for 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.200 me writing the book. One of the great things about 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.040 writing the book is that, like Odysseus binding himself to 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:44.000 the mast, I signed a contract to deliver a book 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:45.480 and I had to do it, and that forced me 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.960 to focus, and it forced me to create. When I'm writing, 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.840 I need two hours. Two hours is the block for 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:56.400 me of a writing session, because there's some there's some 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:58.559 time to sort of move through that first twenty minutes 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.520 of focus. There's some time inside that zone of focus 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.640 where your attention has really locked in, and there's some 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:10.360 time sort of coming back out of it and figuring 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.960 out ways to train our own attention away from a 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:15.360 craving for constant interruption. 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:17.320 Did you keep your phone out of the room. 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.120 I've come up with a whole bunch of weird things 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.720 that I've done through the years. I would have the 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:25.280 phone in the room, but I wouldn't look at it. 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.400 I would set a timer, though, So the way I 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.679 do a writing session is for twenty five minute blocks 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.319 of writing with a five minute break where I can 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.240 check the phone or I can check the internet. And 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.120 that kind of gets me, it's like not too much interruption, 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:42.160 but it's structured enough. 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:44.040 But if you can see your phone, do you know 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.520 that very act of being able to change it. Yeah, yes, 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.720 actually prevents you from focusing. 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.400 The key thing too. And this is something that I 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.080 think we see a lot is and I actually think 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.319 younger people are better. This is actually proactively managing interruption 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.240 so you can select your phone so it doesn't do 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:04.160 any notifications, which is one thing. 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.160 Like MYNC can also make it black and white, which 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:07.480 makes it less appealing. 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.800 Yes, And I think we're going to see more and 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.840 more people opting in these directions. There's people selling dumb 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.880 phones that have been starting to be very successful. There's 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:20.200 people selling pouches. There's all kinds of ways that people 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.600 are in their own way, attempting to sort of solve 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.360 this problem. The problem fundamentally is I want to think deeply. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:31.400 I want to regain some willful discretion and control over 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:37.160 where I flash my spotlight of thought. I don't want 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:41.680 it yank hither and yeah on. And I want to 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.920 regain some comfort of being alone with my own thoughts. 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.880 That to me is the profound human question at the 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:47.240 core of this. 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:52.000 I thought it was interesting that you write about boredom 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.240 and that this is that we're afraid of boredom. And 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.440 I've written and done a lot of stuff about this 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:03.560 as well, about busyness being kind of a badge of 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.880 honor in our culture. But I don't think it's not 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.560 wanting to be bored. I think it's not having the 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:15.680 opportunity to be bored, because we always have something that 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.520 will allow us to divert our attention if we land 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.760 and we're driving. And I've often told my friends is 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.200 sometimes I go to a new city, I'm so busy 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.440 looking at my phone, i don't even notice where I am, 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.720 or the buildings or the sites, or the sounds or 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.840 the scenes of a new place. And I get to 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.080 my hotel and I'm like, where am I? 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:39.720 Where am I at? 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.120 And why am I here? As Admiral Stockdale said, but 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:47.520 you know, it's just such an attention suck. So I 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.000 almost feel like it's not that we're afraid to be bored. 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:53.480 We just there aren't moments of boredom that present themselves. 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:55.480 I think it's both, but I think those relate to 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.880 each other. I mean I think that I mean, I'll 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:02.080 speak for myself that I am afraid of being bored. 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.640 I mean, I remember being bored in childhood. Remember like 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.840 reading the back of a cereal box, right, you know, 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.200 over and over because it's the thing there and you 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.880 want your You're craving something to put your attention on. 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:17.400 And I think part of the reason we associate boredom 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:18.880 with childhood is because. 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:21.040 We didn't have phones. 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:22.880 We didn't have phones. But the other thing is, as 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:24.440 soon as you get old enough, you just cut it 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:25.080 out of your life. 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.760 I remember telling my mom I'm bored in the summer, 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:30.560 and she said, read a book. 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.720 Yeah. Yeah. I mean kids complaining about boredom. I mean 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.040 the thing that I've caught myself doing, which is very funny. 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.160 As your kid comes up to you and they're like, 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.960 I'm bored, and you say, I don't have to tell you, man, 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:45.080 like can I screen time? No, go read a book 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.120 something else. And then as soon as you say that, 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.040 you go back to your phone. Right, You're like, you 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:55.320 got to figure it out, that's true. It's like, oh 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:57.000 what am I doing here? And sometimes they'll call you 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:00.320 out on it. Right. So I think that you know 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.080 that feeling if you go into a coffee shop, you 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.760 left your phone in the car and you start that 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.520 like you have the instinct you're like, ah, I gotta 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.679 sit with my thoughts for four minutes. I think that 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.080 the less that we have that the more the scarier 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.800 it seems to be without it. And we kind of 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:21.800 thoughtlessly run on this treadmill of the constant input because 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.639 that's what we get habituated and comfortable with. And I 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.000 think the work of sitting alone with our own thoughts 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.080 which is which is work that stems all the way 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:34.680 back to the Buddha sitting underneath the Banyan tree, and 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.359 Pascal writing in the seventeenth century and his Christian apologetics 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:42.200 about penses and careker guard, and you know, spiritual traditions 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.000 like that's the stuff of being a human, is that 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.360 you got to sit with your own mind. And sometimes 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.119 the mind can be a scary place, a feral beast. 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.840 But it also can be a very fertile place because 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:58.280 your hipocampus is the part of your brain that's responsible 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:02.200 for creative thinking, and it can only ignite when you're 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.640 not distracted. And that's why you have so many good 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:09.480 ideas or these epiphanies in the shower. The shower, yes, 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:15.200 and so that's an argument for daydreaming, for just thinking, 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:20.080 for not having constantly, you know, all these things around 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.800 you to distract you. So you know, along with this 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:28.120 idea of deep concentration, it does make you think how 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:32.840 much of our creative selves, our deep thinking selves, are 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.160 being sacrificed in our current culture. 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:40.360 I think there's an enormous loss of that creative impulse 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.840 because that time is so often interrupted. And one of 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.720 the things I've said to people, you know the extent, 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.119 there's some like what do I do take away? The 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.600 most concrete for me is spend twenty minutes every day 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.119 alone with your thoughts. And for me, that's a walk 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.240 where I'm not listening to a podcast or not why 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:02.159 I'm just walking, And sometimes that can be longer you 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:06.119 start to push it out. I'll do an hour walk 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:10.960 the loop of the park with my dog. And it 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.800 is amazing how pleasurable that state is when you get 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:17.000 into it, of daydreaming, of letting your thoughts kind of wander, 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.720 of letting creative thoughts bubble up, and how rare it 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:21.919 has become to have. 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:25.280 It, and therapeutic it is I think for your overall health. 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.040 I think it was Jennifer Aniston. I can't remember a 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:32.760 great philosopher named Jennifer Aniston said you shouldn't you shouldn't 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:34.679 have your phone, and I have found this to be 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.320 the case for me. It is also an enormous time suck. 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.639 You know, I can spend an extra hour in bed 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:46.040 reading stuff. Now it's worthwhile stuff. It's articles from very 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.760 you know, respective publications or The Atlantic or The New 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:53.080 Yorker or The Times or a whole host of really 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.439 smart people writing great things, and I feel enriched. But 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.040 you know, if I didn't have that phone, I wouldn't 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.880 grab it and spend sometimes an hour and a half reading. 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:08.480 So you have to kind of figure out how you're 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.000 going to spend your time. 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:11.880 Well and think about the imperatives on the other side 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.600 of this. Right, So, if like the people that want 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.960 to capture your attention, which is a wide array of 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.359 entities and particularly the platforms that are some of the 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:25.720 most powerful and profitable companies in America, right at a 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.240 certain point, they have to start, like you need growth. 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.040 And for a while, when for instance, the smartphone was introduced, 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:33.640 there was this growth. Every year more and more people 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:35.600 got up, but then it levels off and then you 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:37.720 look to international markets and that levels off too, and 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.480 then a certain point, well you need to find more growth. 0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:43.639 And what is it. Well, there's a fixed amount of 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:45.560 people with a fixed amount of waking hours. Well you 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.359 can start to eat into sleep. Well, there's a fixed 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:50.200 amount of adults with a fixed amount of waking hours. 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.200 Well you can start going for children. There's you can 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.600 only watch one thing at a time. Well, maybe get 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:58.480 people to start watching two or three things at a time. Right, 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.359 So there's all these places the growth imperative starts to 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.640 push against these limits, like sleeping in fact, a really 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:07.480 upsetting thing that has happened to me, And I doubt 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:08.600 this has ever happened to you. I don't know if 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:11.840 you're like, have ever had a TikTok habit? 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:16.720 Instagram reels, cooking videos? That's my vice? 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.560 Okay, that's your vice. TikTok has something in the algorithm 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.760 where if you look too long at it, a person 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.520 pops up to be like, hey, buddy, like you you've 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:29.360 kind of been looking for a long time, maybe take 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:31.400 a break. It's like your drug dealer cutting you off. 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:33.000 It's super upsetting. 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.840 No, that's awesome that they do. It works against their 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:37.639 business model. 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.600 Yes, and I wonder the origin of this person who 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.400 comes in. But hitting that point on a TikTok jack 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:47.920 is an upsetting moment. It's like one point thirty in 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.639 the morning and you're like, the device is telling you 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:51.320 to log off. 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:53.320 You must be full of shame when that happened. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.920 The Chinese government is like, buddy, your brain is cooked, 0:21:57.320 --> 0:21:58.480 please put it down. 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:01.680