1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question. 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: What's the most valuable commodity in the world today? Oil, gold, 3 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: natural gas, crypto, Nope. According to author and MSNBC anchor 4 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: Chris Hayes, it's actually attention. Everyone wants it, and the 5 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: NonStop competition to get ours is making us less productive 6 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: and in some cases, downright miserable. Chris has a new 7 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: book out. It's called The Sirens Call. He'll explain the 8 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: title in a moment, but here's a tease. Chris says 9 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: that these days, the sirens that tempted Odysseus are now 10 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: living in our pockets in the form of smartphones, always 11 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: trying to get our attention and make us lose focus. 12 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: Chris explores how technology has changed our lives, rewired our brains, 13 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: and impacted modern politics. Who's able to get our attention, 14 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: even if it's negative attention seems to be winning the day. 15 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: All of this has left us with less time for 16 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: deep thinking and real connection, which are fundamental human needs. 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: And I'm telling you this just as I'm fighting the 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: urge to check the notification on my phone. So here's 19 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: Chris Hayes to the rescue. Hey, Chris, it's great to 20 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: be here. Nice to have you my first guest in 21 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: our news studio. 22 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: This is very exciting. 23 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: We even got flowers. 24 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: They're beautiful. I love irises. 25 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: Good good, Well, welcome, and I'm really excited to talk 26 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: to you about this new book you've written, called The 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: Sirens Call. We'll talk about the title in a minute. 28 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: But how did a book about attention get your attention? 29 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: I think the first place to start is my work life, 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: which is hosting a television show, which I've been doing 31 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: for over a decade, and the many hours I put 32 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: into doing that, and I think this is something that 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: you can very much relate to that. A lot of 34 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: what that work is is thinking about the audience's attention, 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: what will grab it, what will hold it. You get 36 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: feedback all the time about whether you're doing a good 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: or bad job. There were some years there in the 38 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 2: beginning where I got some pretty bad feedback. 39 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: Really, what was the meanest thing that was said about 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: you or to you? 41 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: Oh? Well that I mean, people said mean things. But 42 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: there were periods of the show was not rating particularly well, 43 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: and that just kind of everyone knows that when that's happening, 44 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 2: you know it it's like getting a grade that you're 45 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: wearing on your forehead all day. And in the craft 46 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: of being a TV host, I've had to think a 47 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: lot about what does get people's attention, like how do 48 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: I solve for this problem? And I think the craft 49 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: of that led me to start thinking very seriously about 50 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 2: how important attention was. I mean, one of the things 51 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 2: that strikes me is certain kind of deaths get more 52 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 2: attention than others. If they're particularly spectacular or gruesome, they 53 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 2: might attract attention and that might lead to all kinds 54 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: of political and policy changes, whereas those that might be 55 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: less visible don't attract that same level of effort or 56 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 2: policy discussion. And so as I was thinking about this, 57 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 2: it came to be clear to me that attention was 58 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 2: this very powerful resource. And then there was also the 59 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: part of me that is a creature of the Internet, 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 2: an extremely online person since I've been twelve or thirteen 61 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: or fourteen years old, who spends a lot of time online, 62 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: and between the work life and that part of my life, 63 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: it just became clearer and clearer to me, and particularly 64 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: covering Donald Trump, that attention is kind of the defining 65 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: resource of our age. It's the thing that more and 66 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: more people, institutions, companies are chasing. When you have it 67 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: in the aggregate, you have a very valuable thing. There's 68 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: a sense in which it's being taken from us often, 69 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: and that doesn't feel good. And that started me on 70 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: the path of writing the book. 71 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: The title is called The Sirens Call, and it's based 72 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: on the Odyssey, And I want to be honest with you, 73 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: your book made me feel very stupid, Chris, But it 74 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: was that your goal. How did the sirens tempt Odysseus 75 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: and help us all remember? And why this particular title 76 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: seems so apt. 77 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 2: It's an amazing portion of the Odyssey, uh, in which 78 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: Odysseus has just been on the island with Circe. She's 79 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: a sort of goddess witch, and she says, hey, heads up, 80 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 2: before you leave a warning. You're going to come to 81 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: these sirens and if you they're very dangerous they will 82 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: warrible you to death. 83 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: And women they're not like ambulances exactly. 84 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: They're women who sing this song that is so irresistible. 85 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: It will pull a ship to the rocks and you'll 86 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: crash and you'll die. And she says, you'll never see 87 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: home again. If you listen to them. But she gives 88 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: them a plan to sort of have his cake and 89 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: eat it too, because she knows this has never said 90 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: explicitly he wants to hear them. So what she says is, look, 91 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: stuff wax in the ears of your men, and then 92 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 2: bind yourself to the mass to your own ship so 93 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: that you can hear the sirens. But then when they 94 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: try to tempt you to go towards them, your men 95 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 2: will ignore you. And sure enough we have Odysseus bound 96 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: to the mast, and he starts to hear the sirens call, 97 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 2: and he's like gesturing frantically to his men, like go 98 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 2: towards that, and they just ignore him, as they've been 99 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 2: instructed to, and the wax is stuffed in their ears, 100 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 2: and they sail safely past. And that image is a 101 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: very potent one in the Western canon, and I think 102 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: it represents the Freudian war between ego and ID, you know, 103 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: temptation and self discipline. 104 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: But in this case, the sirens are our digital device. 105 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: Almost literally, yes they are. It is the sound of 106 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: the notification, It is the buzzing of the. 107 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: Phone, and the constant, never ending temptation. 108 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 2: Temptation and entreaties and seduction, the constant portal of delights 109 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: that sits here pulsing on my pocket like Gollum's ring. 110 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: Right, it sounded pretty dirty. 111 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: Well, it's funny you say that, because the Sirens always 112 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 2: have this kind of you know, uh, aspect of sexual lore. 113 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: And when we think about the Internet, you know, there's 114 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: this entire category that we have, even before the Internet, 115 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: for things that attract our attention that we think are 116 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: morally dubious, So like the words like lurid and prurient, obscene, tabloid, Right, 117 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: there's this entire category of things where it's like, we 118 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 2: know they pull out our attention, we don't think they should. 119 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: And in some ways, the more competitive our attention markets get, 120 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 2: the more they go towards that aspect. 121 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: The Sirens call, I'm a generation older than you are, 122 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: and I have been keenly aware of the role that 123 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: the Internet and technology has played not only in the 124 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: media landscape, but really how we spend our lives. And 125 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: it's almost like the frog in the slowly boiling water. 126 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I felt it, I saw it, I witnessed it. 127 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: I was aware of it in a way that I 128 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: felt like a lot of society was a bit asleep 129 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: at the switch as this was transforming our lives. And 130 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm curious because I started my career before the internet 131 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: burst onto the scene and your generation younger, and I'm 132 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: curious how you have seen the digital world impact your career. 133 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: Well, in terms of my career, I mean, the most 134 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: obvious part of it is simply that the sheer amount 135 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: of things to watch has expanded most infinitely. I mean 136 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: when I started, I started my primetime show in twenty thirteen. 137 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: I remember we had the show creator for House of 138 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: Cards on the show, Bo Willemon, and at the time, 139 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: the conceit of the segment was Netflix is gonna make 140 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: its own show. How about that? Ain't that a kick? Yeah, 141 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: here's bau Willhemon. They're going to do an original show. 142 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: So even the idea of streaming didn't exist then. And 143 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 2: the way that we tended to think about competition, and 144 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 2: I'm sure this was the case of the Today Show, 145 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 2: Right is the other morning shows? What are the other 146 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 2: cable news shows on at my hour? And that's fair 147 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: enough that matters for. 148 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: And I also thought about NPR, local radio, sound newspapers. 149 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: How are people getting their information? But it was a 150 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: very finite sind choices. 151 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and now is it is not hyperbolic 152 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: at all. It is a true statement to say that 153 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: in every instant that you are trying to keep someone's attention, 154 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: you are competing against every single piece of content ever 155 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: generated by humans, basically anywhere in the language of the 156 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: people that you're appealing to. I mean, there was, you 157 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: know people. My kid, my six year old, will occasionally 158 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: just start watching some discontinued sitcoms from the mid Auts 159 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: because it's on Disney. I guess I'm like, I didn't 160 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: even know this show existed. She's super into it, and 161 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: it's cool at some level. It has a different life, right, Right, 162 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: But at every instant you're competing for attention, the library 163 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: you're competing with has just become so enormous. 164 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: And I think they call it the paradox of choice, 165 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: to say. 166 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 2: Because it's paralyzing at some level, Right, what do I 167 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: want to watch? I don't know. 168 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: It's so many, too many choices, yes. 169 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 2: And that's partly what the algorithm solves for. But the 170 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: algorithm comes with its own problems, right, And then you 171 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: also get in this very strange situation this is something 172 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: that's really changed. It's very interesting. It used to be 173 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 2: the case in linear cable television that, again when I 174 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: started a decade ago or more, you would see in 175 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 2: the minute by minutes of Nielsen, you would see the 176 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: numbers go down during commercial break because people don't want 177 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 2: to watch commercials and they want to switch to another network. 178 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 2: Now that doesn't happen. The reason is because people are 179 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: just like, go to their phone, right, oh, and then 180 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: you come back on. They don't even switch anymore. 181 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: And it's also interesting. Now cable news will say we'll 182 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: be back and they'll have a countdown. 183 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 2: Clock, or they'll put the commercial with the image that's 184 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 2: now our innovation. They'll do sports ring met more like 185 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: on thirty second timeouts. 186 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: They do that, right, so stand by, we're going to 187 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: be here, and you can actually count down till we're back, 188 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: which I think is so interesting that didn't exist when 189 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: I was on television, and I. 190 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: Think it's it all speaks to the fact that there's 191 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: this kind of jumpiness to our attention that is both 192 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 2: born of some deep things about our psychologies and the 193 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: way that our brains work, and also something that has 194 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: been cultivated in us through the technologies. Right, the shorter 195 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: and shorter your attention span is, or the more interruptions 196 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: you're dealing with, The more acclimated you get to interruption, 197 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 2: the more that you feel that things that develop slowly 198 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 2: or move slowly or boring. Right, So there's this relationship 199 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: between supply and demand, between what our desires are and 200 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 2: what we're craving. 201 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a 202 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and 203 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, 204 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. You know, 205 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: I did a national geographic documentary series and one of 206 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: them was focused on our addiction to our digital devices. 207 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: And I spoke to a lot of scientists and this 208 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: constant interruption, this constant jumpiness, as you say, prohibits us 209 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: from being thinking deeply. It takes about twenty minutes to 210 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: get in a fully concentrated state to really focus, to 211 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: really activate that, you know, our deep thinking ability, and 212 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: the constant interruption is precluding us from doing that, which 213 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: makes you wonder, like, how are people going to think 214 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: deeply if they're constantly interrupted? 215 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: And this is a I mean, this is a problem 216 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: for anyone that wants to think deeply. I mean for 217 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 2: me writing the book. One of the great things about 218 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: writing the book is that, like Odysseus binding himself to 219 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: the mast, I signed a contract to deliver a book 220 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: and I had to do it, and that forced me 221 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: to focus, and it forced me to create. When I'm writing, 222 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: I need two hours. Two hours is the block for 223 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 2: me of a writing session, because there's some there's some 224 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 2: time to sort of move through that first twenty minutes 225 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: of focus. There's some time inside that zone of focus 226 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: where your attention has really locked in, and there's some 227 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: time sort of coming back out of it and figuring 228 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 2: out ways to train our own attention away from a 229 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: craving for constant interruption. 230 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: Did you keep your phone out of the room. 231 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: I've come up with a whole bunch of weird things 232 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 2: that I've done through the years. I would have the 233 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: phone in the room, but I wouldn't look at it. 234 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: I would set a timer, though, So the way I 235 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 2: do a writing session is for twenty five minute blocks 236 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 2: of writing with a five minute break where I can 237 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: check the phone or I can check the internet. And 238 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: that kind of gets me, it's like not too much interruption, 239 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: but it's structured enough. 240 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: But if you can see your phone, do you know 241 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: that very act of being able to change it. Yeah, yes, 242 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: actually prevents you from focusing. 243 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: The key thing too. And this is something that I 244 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 2: think we see a lot is and I actually think 245 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 2: younger people are better. This is actually proactively managing interruption 246 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 2: so you can select your phone so it doesn't do 247 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: any notifications, which is one thing. 248 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: Like MYNC can also make it black and white, which 249 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: makes it less appealing. 250 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 2: Yes, And I think we're going to see more and 251 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: more people opting in these directions. There's people selling dumb 252 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: phones that have been starting to be very successful. There's 253 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: people selling pouches. There's all kinds of ways that people 254 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: are in their own way, attempting to sort of solve 255 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: this problem. The problem fundamentally is I want to think deeply. 256 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: I want to regain some willful discretion and control over 257 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: where I flash my spotlight of thought. I don't want 258 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: it yank hither and yeah on. And I want to 259 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: regain some comfort of being alone with my own thoughts. 260 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 2: That to me is the profound human question at the 261 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: core of this. 262 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting that you write about boredom 263 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: and that this is that we're afraid of boredom. And 264 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: I've written and done a lot of stuff about this 265 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: as well, about busyness being kind of a badge of 266 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: honor in our culture. But I don't think it's not 267 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: wanting to be bored. I think it's not having the 268 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: opportunity to be bored, because we always have something that 269 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: will allow us to divert our attention if we land 270 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: and we're driving. And I've often told my friends is 271 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: sometimes I go to a new city, I'm so busy 272 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: looking at my phone, i don't even notice where I am, 273 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: or the buildings or the sites, or the sounds or 274 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: the scenes of a new place. And I get to 275 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: my hotel and I'm like, where am I? 276 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: Where am I at? 277 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: And why am I here? As Admiral Stockdale said, but 278 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's just such an attention suck. So I 279 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: almost feel like it's not that we're afraid to be bored. 280 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: We just there aren't moments of boredom that present themselves. 281 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 2: I think it's both, but I think those relate to 282 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: each other. I mean I think that I mean, I'll 283 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: speak for myself that I am afraid of being bored. 284 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: I mean, I remember being bored in childhood. Remember like 285 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: reading the back of a cereal box, right, you know, 286 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: over and over because it's the thing there and you 287 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: want your You're craving something to put your attention on. 288 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: And I think part of the reason we associate boredom 289 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: with childhood is because. 290 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: We didn't have phones. 291 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: We didn't have phones. But the other thing is, as 292 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 2: soon as you get old enough, you just cut it 293 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: out of your life. 294 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: I remember telling my mom I'm bored in the summer, 295 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: and she said, read a book. 296 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I mean kids complaining about boredom. I mean 297 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 2: the thing that I've caught myself doing, which is very funny. 298 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: As your kid comes up to you and they're like, 299 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: I'm bored, and you say, I don't have to tell you, man, 300 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: like can I screen time? No, go read a book 301 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: something else. And then as soon as you say that, 302 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: you go back to your phone. Right, You're like, you 303 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: got to figure it out, that's true. It's like, oh 304 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 2: what am I doing here? And sometimes they'll call you 305 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 2: out on it. Right. So I think that you know 306 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: that feeling if you go into a coffee shop, you 307 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: left your phone in the car and you start that 308 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: like you have the instinct you're like, ah, I gotta 309 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 2: sit with my thoughts for four minutes. I think that 310 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: the less that we have that the more the scarier 311 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: it seems to be without it. And we kind of 312 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 2: thoughtlessly run on this treadmill of the constant input because 313 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: that's what we get habituated and comfortable with. And I 314 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: think the work of sitting alone with our own thoughts 315 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: which is which is work that stems all the way 316 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: back to the Buddha sitting underneath the Banyan tree, and 317 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: Pascal writing in the seventeenth century and his Christian apologetics 318 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 2: about penses and careker guard, and you know, spiritual traditions 319 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 2: like that's the stuff of being a human, is that 320 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 2: you got to sit with your own mind. And sometimes 321 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 2: the mind can be a scary place, a feral beast. 322 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: But it also can be a very fertile place because 323 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: your hipocampus is the part of your brain that's responsible 324 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: for creative thinking, and it can only ignite when you're 325 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: not distracted. And that's why you have so many good 326 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: ideas or these epiphanies in the shower. The shower, yes, 327 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: and so that's an argument for daydreaming, for just thinking, 328 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: for not having constantly, you know, all these things around 329 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: you to distract you. So you know, along with this 330 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 1: idea of deep concentration, it does make you think how 331 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: much of our creative selves, our deep thinking selves, are 332 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: being sacrificed in our current culture. 333 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 2: I think there's an enormous loss of that creative impulse 334 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: because that time is so often interrupted. And one of 335 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: the things I've said to people, you know the extent, 336 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 2: there's some like what do I do take away? The 337 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 2: most concrete for me is spend twenty minutes every day 338 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: alone with your thoughts. And for me, that's a walk 339 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 2: where I'm not listening to a podcast or not why 340 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: I'm just walking, And sometimes that can be longer you 341 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 2: start to push it out. I'll do an hour walk 342 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: the loop of the park with my dog. And it 343 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 2: is amazing how pleasurable that state is when you get 344 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: into it, of daydreaming, of letting your thoughts kind of wander, 345 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 2: of letting creative thoughts bubble up, and how rare it 346 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 2: has become to have. 347 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: It, and therapeutic it is I think for your overall health. 348 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: I think it was Jennifer Aniston. I can't remember a 349 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: great philosopher named Jennifer Aniston said you shouldn't you shouldn't 350 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: have your phone, and I have found this to be 351 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: the case for me. It is also an enormous time suck. 352 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: You know, I can spend an extra hour in bed 353 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: reading stuff. Now it's worthwhile stuff. It's articles from very 354 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: you know, respective publications or The Atlantic or The New 355 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: Yorker or The Times or a whole host of really 356 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: smart people writing great things, and I feel enriched. But 357 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, if I didn't have that phone, I wouldn't 358 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: grab it and spend sometimes an hour and a half reading. 359 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: So you have to kind of figure out how you're 360 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: going to spend your time. 361 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 2: Well and think about the imperatives on the other side 362 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: of this. Right, So, if like the people that want 363 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: to capture your attention, which is a wide array of 364 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 2: entities and particularly the platforms that are some of the 365 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 2: most powerful and profitable companies in America, right at a 366 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: certain point, they have to start, like you need growth. 367 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 2: And for a while, when for instance, the smartphone was introduced, 368 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 2: there was this growth. Every year more and more people 369 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: got up, but then it levels off and then you 370 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: look to international markets and that levels off too, and 371 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: then a certain point, well you need to find more growth. 372 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 2: And what is it. Well, there's a fixed amount of 373 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: people with a fixed amount of waking hours. Well you 374 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: can start to eat into sleep. Well, there's a fixed 375 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 2: amount of adults with a fixed amount of waking hours. 376 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: Well you can start going for children. There's you can 377 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: only watch one thing at a time. Well, maybe get 378 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: people to start watching two or three things at a time. Right, 379 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: So there's all these places the growth imperative starts to 380 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 2: push against these limits, like sleeping in fact, a really 381 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: upsetting thing that has happened to me, And I doubt 382 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: this has ever happened to you. I don't know if 383 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: you're like, have ever had a TikTok habit? 384 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: Instagram reels, cooking videos? That's my vice? 385 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 2: Okay, that's your vice. TikTok has something in the algorithm 386 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 2: where if you look too long at it, a person 387 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: pops up to be like, hey, buddy, like you you've 388 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 2: kind of been looking for a long time, maybe take 389 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 2: a break. It's like your drug dealer cutting you off. 390 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: It's super upsetting. 391 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: No, that's awesome that they do. It works against their 392 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: business model. 393 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: Yes, and I wonder the origin of this person who 394 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 2: comes in. But hitting that point on a TikTok jack 395 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 2: is an upsetting moment. It's like one point thirty in 396 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: the morning and you're like, the device is telling you 397 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: to log off. 398 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: You must be full of shame when that happened. 399 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 2: The Chinese government is like, buddy, your brain is cooked, 400 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: please put it down. 401 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: I'm curious when you said your show wasn't doing well, 402 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: it made you think about how to capture people's attention. 403 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: And was that fighting with what you thought people needed 404 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: to know and hear and more importantly understand, versus how 405 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: they would stick with you and watch your whole show 406 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: or more minutes than they normally would. And what kind 407 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: of Fostian deal did you have to make? 408 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: That is the central conundrum. I mean, as I write 409 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: in the book, attention is not a moral faculty. There's 410 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 2: a great line from Walter Lippman when he's writing about 411 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 2: this in the twenties. He's writing about the aftermath of 412 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 2: World War One and the Treaty of Versaillese. He says, 413 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 2: the American public has a great deal of interest in 414 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 2: the outcome of these negotiations. But they're not interested in it, 415 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: Like it's going to matter a ton to the US, 416 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 2: but like no one really cares. And this is the 417 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: central conundrum of being a journalist. I think, in this environment, 418 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 2: in any environment, honestly, but in that. 419 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: Particularly, it's like on steroids. 420 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: Now. It's this balance. You know, you have these twin imperatives. 421 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: I have to keep people's attention and hold it, and 422 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 2: I have to deliver information and a set of stories 423 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 2: about the world that are true and I think important 424 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 2: and urgent to the project of self governance. Sometimes those 425 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: are in competition. Sometimes they line up, you know. The 426 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 2: California wildfires are a great example where they both compel 427 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: your attention the visuals and the drama of the tragedy, 428 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: and also it's a really important story. So sometimes you 429 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 2: get them both right. Sadly, Sadly, sometimes you're fighting these 430 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: twin imperatives. And part of the craft that you develop 431 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 2: over time, that I've tried to develop is getting better 432 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: and better at figuring out how to tell stories and 433 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: move the audience from point A to point B through 434 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: your ability, through your skills to get to talk about 435 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 2: the things you think are important and still bring people 436 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: along that's hard. It's really hard. I mean it's the 437 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 2: it's really hard, and I don't I've gotten better at it, 438 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 2: but I still fail at it all the time. 439 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: And plus people don't necessarily want to stick around to 440 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: connect A B and C. Right, So I think its 441 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: those people who watch your show probably do. 442 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: At some level. I think we have the audience segmentation, 443 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: which can be bad in certain ways, can also self 444 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 2: select for people that are you know, at this point. 445 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: One of the things that I like about my job 446 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 2: and the relationship I have visa visa sort of these 447 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 2: attentional questions, is I'm not just popping into a feed 448 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 2: into someone's algorithm. We feed to try to grab their 449 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 2: attention for a few seconds. They've never seen me. Right, 450 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: by and large, there's a relationship that has been built 451 00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 2: up with the viewer. And that relationship is actually important 452 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 2: because what the relationship means is that, in the same 453 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: way that my relationship to the New Yorker is such 454 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: that I have a relationship with the publication. And so 455 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: if it lands in my house and I pick it up, 456 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 2: and I go through the table contents and there's a 457 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 2: profile of the conductor of the Bavarian orchestra, and I'm like, 458 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 2: I'm not that interested in it, but okay, I'll see 459 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 2: what you got because I know. And then I'm like, 460 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 2: oh wow, this is this guy's fascinating right that that 461 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 2: little friction you might feel is overcome by the pre 462 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 2: existing relationship that you have. There's some of that in 463 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 2: the relationship I have the audience right that they that 464 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: they're willing to trust me to guide them, such that 465 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 2: if we're starting to do something that left to your 466 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 2: own devices, maybe you wouldn't find that interesting. You sick 467 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 2: with it? 468 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: I mean trust we could. You should write your next 469 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: book on trust. 470 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: I actually have thought about precisely that. 471 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: Because funnily enough, that is the big another huge crisis 472 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: in our culture. 473 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: And they're related. I think trust requires depth of connection 474 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 2: and the building of a relationship over time, and I 475 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,479 Speaker 2: think often the attentional atmosphere we exist in cuts against that. 476 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 2: You can argue on the other side that actually people 477 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: do have trust relationships that have grown very deep. There 478 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 2: are people that trust Alex Jones to tell them the truth, 479 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: and there are people that you know, don't trust me, right, 480 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 2: But I think one of the central elements in our 481 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: current condition is just that we're becoming a more and 482 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: more low trust society, and it's very hard to run 483 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 2: a low trust democracy. 484 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: What are we going to do? I don't know, Dude, 485 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: I've never been called dude. I like it. 486 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a lot of there's a 487 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 2: lot of peril. You know, it's a moment or great peril. 488 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 2: I do think I do have a very central belief 489 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 2: in people, and in the American people. I do think 490 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 2: collective publics can manifest both really awful tendencies and truly 491 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 2: noble ones. I think some of the stuff you've seen 492 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 2: in Los Angeles in the aftermath of wildfires is completely incredible. 493 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: It is amazing how much people will self organize and 494 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: act cooperatively and selflessly with urgency in those moments. I'm 495 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 2: just seeing so many people and we're all just one 496 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 2: degree removed, I think, from that disaster in many respects, 497 00:27:53,640 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 2: and just seeing so many beautiful stories of mutual aid, cooperation. 498 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 2: And I do think like our politics and our media 499 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: environments and our cultures can cultivate different impulses collectively in US, 500 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: and I think we've been going through a period with 501 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: some of our worst impulses are being cultivated. But I 502 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,239 Speaker 2: also don't think that means that like those impulses are 503 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: the true ones and the other ones are false. I 504 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: think it's a question of our situation. 505 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: You're more optimistic than I am, because I think that 506 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't fit the business model to try to come 507 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: together and to spotlight our better angels. It is more 508 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: beneficial to antagonize and enrage and divide. 509 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 2: And I think this goes back to something that's like 510 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: deep and inescapable about our evolutionary wiring, which is attention 511 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 2: as a faculty has negativity bias. And there's an obvious 512 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: reason for that. You know, if you're sitting there and 513 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 2: there's like a pretty flower here, and there's a predator 514 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 2: over there, that's going to get your attention to the predator. 515 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: The pretty flower you may or may not linger on. 516 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 2: And so so. 517 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: We're hardwired to basically be attracted to danger or negativity reactivity. 518 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 2: Threat. Yeah, particularly threat, I mean threat is really the ultimate. 519 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: I mean, the sound of a gunshot is going to 520 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 2: get your attention in a crowded street. And so that 521 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 2: negativity bias, when you put it in the context of 522 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 2: these enormous competitive second to second competitive attention markets you 523 00:29:49,040 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 2: are going to trend towards negativity. 524 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that, because I know you believe 525 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump has been able to marshal this attention 526 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: dilemma or you know, take advantage of the so called 527 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: attention economy in a much more effective way. And can 528 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: you explain how he's able to do that? 529 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: I think there's basically one simple trick he's figured out. 530 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 2: Most politicians only want attention if it's positive attention. Most 531 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 2: people are like that. I'm like that. I don't want 532 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: people to pay attention to me and be mad at me, 533 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 2: or mean, I don't ask you with you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 534 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 2: I'm with you. And most politicians, for perfectly rational reasons, 535 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 2: also want that because they see their job as to 536 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 2: be popular and liked and to win majorities and to 537 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: persuade people. Trump's big insight, which is born of something 538 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 2: deep in. 539 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: Him, well he you know it comes down to all 540 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: press is good press. 541 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 2: Right, It's exactly that. Basically, negative attention, particularly if attention 542 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: is all that matters. Negative attention is almost as good 543 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 2: as plausitive attention, maybe as good. The old pt Bartum quote, right, 544 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 2: as long as you spell my name correctly, ma'am. When 545 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 2: she a reporter says she's writing a negative piece, he goes, 546 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: go with me, just spell the name correctly. All press 547 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: is good press. And I think there's two levels at 548 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 2: which he's been able to marshal this that are important. 549 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: One is has to do with the fact that attention 550 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: is more important than ever and so fractured that just 551 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 2: getting it itself has a value, not as even just 552 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: a means to another end. But I also think it's 553 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 2: a hard thing to fake personally, and by that I 554 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 2: mean other politicians have tried to do what Trump does, 555 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: which is to be outrageous and polarizing, and it hasn't 556 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: worked for them the same way. 557 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: When you look at Carrie Lake, she's the perfect example. 558 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 2: Like she had two winnable in that state. The first 559 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 2: one she nearirely lost, the second one she lost by more. 560 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,479 Speaker 2: She has tried to do it. She's also like a 561 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: former broadcaster. 562 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's talent TV news anchor and Arizona who ran 563 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: for office twice lost and now she's had the Voice 564 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: of America. 565 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 2: Yes, but she's been rewarded for her But. 566 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: You're right, but why couldn't she do the same thing. 567 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: Is he's a singularly talented individual in being able to 568 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,479 Speaker 1: do what he does. Do you see anyone who comes close. 569 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: The only one now is Elon Musk, who I think 570 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: is doing the same thing. And I think the reason 571 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 2: that Elon Musk is doing is similar to Trump. It's 572 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: not that he's bought the platform and he's the world's 573 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 2: wealthiest man, although that helps. It's just at some deep 574 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 2: psychological level, their relationship to negative attention is is different 575 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 2: than yours or mind. And I just think it's not fakeable, 576 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. I could try. I could 577 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: take this book and study it. I could go run 578 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: for office and try to be mayor of New York 579 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 2: City and be like, you know what, I've learned this lesson. 580 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to be the polarizing shock jock of mayoral 581 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 2: candidates who gets negative attention because I've written this book 582 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 2: and it'll be my manual. It wouldn't work. I just 583 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: wouldn't at some deep level. Wouldn't work because I don't 584 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: want people to be mad at me, not like me. 585 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 2: It would bum me out too much, and I could 586 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: try to force myself to fake it. But I think 587 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 2: that like it selects for some deep psychological attributes. 588 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: Right, And I think of Alex Jones, I think he's 589 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: probably close to agreed Donald Trump in his ability to 590 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: get attention. 591 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: Kanye is another one. 592 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and in a negative way. You call this trolling politics. Yeah, 593 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? Exactly? 594 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 2: Trolling is a term that goes back to almost the 595 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 2: earliest moments of the Internet, when there were message boards 596 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,719 Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies. These are mostly academics and computer 597 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 2: scientists talking as message boards, and basically the insight of 598 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: trolling is that it's easier to get negative attention the 599 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 2: positive attention, like if you walk up to someone, if 600 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 2: you walk into a subway, can't start screaming at people 601 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: like you will get their attention, probably not going to 602 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: like you very much. And that same insight started to 603 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 2: manifest itself on social networks and bulletin boards and where 604 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: people were interacting, certain people had to zeal for getting attention. 605 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: They figured out the quickest way is just like, be 606 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 2: a kind of obnoxious jerk, and people will pay attention 607 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 2: to you, often to fight with you. And now that 608 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 2: conflict itself draws more attention, so then you're you're constantly 609 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 2: getting it and then you're creating a dilemma for people 610 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 2: that know you're trying to get a rise out of them, 611 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 2: but they don't want to let it go. This form 612 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 2: of Internet behavior called trolling, which sort of goes back 613 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 2: to trawling for fish, right, you put a lure and 614 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 2: you drag it, and the fish gets distracted and goes 615 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: after it has now become a huge part of our politics. 616 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 2: So trolling politics that you see. Marjorie Tailer Green is 617 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: a great exams. She's like a classic troll, right, She 618 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 2: just constantly courts negative attention. But she's one of four 619 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five members of Congress, and I know 620 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 2: her name, and you know our name, and probably some 621 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 2: of the listeners know her name more than they know 622 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 2: hundreds of others of members of Congress who do not 623 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 2: court that negative attention. So she has been successful in 624 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: that respect, and that is increasingly the model for modern politics, 625 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 2: particularly I think on the right Republican Party, because it 626 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 2: stems from Trump's you know insights. 627 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the Democrats because they seem to 628 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: be a very different kettle of fish in terms of 629 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: how they interact with the media publicly, the kind of 630 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: attention they get and you say, it's because they are 631 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: very risk averse. Yeah, they don't want negative attention. They 632 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: don't and what's wrong with that? 633 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 2: You know, it's a totally natural in some ways. What's 634 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 2: interesting about this is, at the same time Trump has 635 00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: been very successful. If you look at other Racesublicans have 636 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: lost a ton of winnable races by nominating candidates who 637 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 2: courted too much negative attention. The voters are like, I 638 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 2: don't like that person. I mean, we just had a 639 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 2: race in North Carolina, which is a great example. Lieutenant 640 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 2: governor there Mark Robinson lost by thirteen points. Now, he's 641 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 2: kind of an outrageous guy, kind of a troll, says 642 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 2: all sorts of controversial things. 643 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: He's the one that was on Nude Africa, yeah, and 644 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: also Africa, right, and likes watching. I mean, got caught 645 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: on all these weird porn sites. Isn't that the same guy? 646 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,359 Speaker 2: Yes, he was on a he had a user name 647 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 2: that he denies was him on a porn message board 648 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 2: called Nude Africa, where he declared himself a black Nazi. Right. 649 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: He had all sorts of other strange predilections that we 650 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to go into. 651 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 2: Some strange predilections that he confessed to on Nude Africa. 652 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 2: But even before that, he said things in public all 653 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 2: the time some people need killing, for instance, that were 654 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,760 Speaker 2: very controversial and he did not do well. Like Josh Stein, 655 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 2: who's now the governor North Carolina, ran a low attention 656 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 2: I'm a likable dude race and at works. So the 657 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 2: Democrats instinct to avoid negative attention has worked for them 658 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 2: in some places. It's it's won them races at the 659 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 2: lower level. At the top of American politics, I think 660 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: what we've learned attention is so important that if you're 661 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 2: constantly making the choice to avoid the possibility of negative attention, 662 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 2: even if it means people are paying no attention to you, 663 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 2: you are making a poor trade. And that's something that 664 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,720 Speaker 2: national Democrats keep doing, and I think they are suffering 665 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 2: for us. 666 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: So what are you saying. If you had to advise them, 667 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: you would say, get out there. More so, even if 668 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: you say something stupid, you have to get out there. 669 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: But what if the stupid comment is the thing that 670 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: everybody focuses on, how do you get get part of 671 00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: the solution. 672 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 2: Part of the solution is to go say something next 673 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 2: day too. There is a real problem. If you do 674 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 2: fewer interviews, a gaff something you say is going to 675 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 2: be magnified if you're doing interviews all the time. Jadvancyd 676 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 2: interviews a ton. He said a ton of stuff that 677 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 2: attracted negative attention. It was washed out by the next day. 678 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 2: I think politicians should write their own social media posts. 679 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 2: I think they should go on Instagram Live. I think 680 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 2: they should go on podcasts. I think they should talk 681 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 2: to people. I think they should not be afraid of 682 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 2: saying stuff. I think if you say something wrong, just 683 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 2: say something else next, or say I should have phrased 684 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 2: that differently. But again, even that is dicey because part 685 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 2: of the key to excelling in this area is never apologized, 686 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 2: never look back, just keep saying stuff. But I think 687 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 2: generally the idea of being authentic, speaking to people and 688 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,720 Speaker 2: speaking a lot. Here's one thing I think is really important. 689 00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,839 Speaker 2: I think people have gotten more forgiving about gaffs. Gaffs 690 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 2: partly because everyone's saying stuff publicly all the time through 691 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 2: social media, and more and more people have the first 692 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 2: person experience of saying something that you wish you could 693 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,399 Speaker 2: take back or didn't quite get across what you wanted 694 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 2: to say right, And I think that's part of what 695 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 2: we've seen happen where things that used to be disqualifying 696 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 2: we would say that would be an enormous scandal don't 697 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 2: mean anything anymore. And I think it's partly because everyone's 698 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 2: generating content. Everyone's had the experience of like saying something 699 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 2: someone took out of context, and so people are much 700 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 2: more forgiving. And I think that means you should just 701 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 2: talk more, like go communicate to people. 702 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: Do you think that that is what hurt Kamala Harris, 703 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: that she was a there were questions about her authenticity 704 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: and she was so risk averse when it came to 705 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: doing interviews for quite a while during the campaign. 706 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 2: I think it was a contributing factor. I mean, I 707 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 2: think I think the data bear out that she actually 708 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: ran quite a good campaign. And it's notable to me 709 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 2: that the gap between her and Trump was the narrowest 710 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 2: in the swing states, which is where they were actually campaigning, 711 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 2: and much wider in the states where they didn't campaign, 712 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 2: which speaks to the fact that it was actually a 713 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 2: pretty effective campaign and she was a pretty effective candidate. 714 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 2: The environment was pretty tough. You see this in New 715 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 2: Jersey and New York and California, where the swings were 716 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 2: much bigger than the swings that happened in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. 717 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 2: That said, I think it was a enormous tactical mistake 718 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,320 Speaker 2: to approach the media and communications with that kind of 719 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 2: risk aversion and not talk to people more and more 720 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 2: in a more free, willing fashion. 721 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 1: How are you going to cover Trump this go round differently, Chris, 722 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: because that's something that I've been wrestling with same. You know, 723 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,839 Speaker 1: people say they don't want to know, but my job 724 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: is to tell them what's happening. And if it's fact 725 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: based reporting, then to pro MAGA people it seems biased. 726 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: And it's a real conundrum and sometimes you just have 727 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: to say, to hell with it. I'm just going to 728 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: do the best I can. But it's tricky, it's really hard. 729 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 2: I don't think i've it's still an unsolved problem even 730 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 2: these ten years in. I've got a few guiding principles 731 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 2: that I've been thinking about, some of which I've thought 732 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 2: of before, some of which have become a sharper focus 733 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 2: this time around. The first is modulation is key. If 734 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,839 Speaker 2: you turn the volume on your stereo up to ten 735 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 2: and you leave it there, it starts to sound like five, right, 736 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 2: and then you can't ever turn it up past ten, 737 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,320 Speaker 2: So you have to modulate. And that was really important 738 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 2: the first term. It's important here not everything is of 739 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 2: equal urgency or danger. Right. 740 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: That's what a lot of people are writing about that 741 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 1: it can't be a five alarm flyer every time he 742 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: does something that you have to be much more selective 743 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: about the things you shine your spotlight on. I think 744 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: that's part of their strategy, is to flood the zone 745 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: with so many things overwhelm, right, you don't quite know 746 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,760 Speaker 1: what to really dive deeply into. 747 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 2: So that relates to the second principle, which I think 748 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 2: is focus is power, and that falls out of a 749 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 2: lot of the things I'm writing about in the book, 750 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 2: and that be intentional and volitional about your focus. So 751 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 2: like tonight I'm going to do we're doing the pardons 752 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 2: again for the second day in a row. Now, could 753 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 2: have just he did a lot of other stuff in 754 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 2: the last twenty four hours that could pull us off 755 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 2: the pardons, But I'm doing the pardons again because I 756 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 2: think these partons are really important, an abomination truly, and 757 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 2: I want to stick with it, so focus is power. 758 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 2: The third thing, it's very tempting, not just around Trump 759 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 2: and the media, to start with the story and work 760 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 2: backwards to the facts. And by that I mean when 761 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 2: he signs in an executive order, it plays some narrative 762 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 2: role like Donald Trump is going to do X, and 763 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 2: I think it's really important to start with the facts 764 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 2: and work to the story. And what I mean by 765 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 2: that is to actually read the executive order, understand what 766 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 2: it means, talk to subject matter experts in that area 767 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 2: of law. Is this actually going to tangibly affect people? 768 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 2: Is this essentially a press release? Understanding what's happening as 769 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,280 Speaker 2: the first thing to build your foundation on. It sounds obvious, 770 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 2: but it's because things happen so fast, and because he 771 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,959 Speaker 2: does so much. You can get trapped in covering him 772 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,319 Speaker 2: because the actions play some narrative role, but you don't 773 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 2: actually have a handle of what's being done. And that 774 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 2: to me is really important, like always always drill down 775 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 2: the details. 776 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 1: Will you report on things that you think are positive? 777 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:57,240 Speaker 2: Oh? Sure? 778 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: I mean, can you think of anything thing that would 779 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: fall into that category? 780 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 2: The first term I can like George W. Bush and 781 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,800 Speaker 2: pepfar which was the AIDS funding that the federal government 782 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 2: promulgated under George W. Bush and led to literally millions 783 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 2: of people getting AIDS drugs and saving their lives. Operation 784 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,959 Speaker 2: Warp Speed was by far the greatest thing that Trump 785 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 2: administration did. That was the program where they essentially guaranteed 786 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 2: federal purchase of a COVID vaccine, thereby incentivizing rapid research 787 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 2: and deployment and helping get a vaccine to market in 788 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 2: an incredibly fast period of time that saved hundreds of 789 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 2: thousands of lives, millions of lives. Like Operation Warps Feed 790 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,759 Speaker 2: was great, If he does something like Operation Warp Speed again, 791 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 2: I'll be like, that's great. 792 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,440 Speaker 1: What about his condemnation of the vaccine now. 793 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 2: It's deeply sick. One of the most dispiriting realities we 794 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 2: find ourselves in, particularly as we're watching bird flu percolate, 795 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,880 Speaker 2: is that we're in a worse position to deal with 796 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,479 Speaker 2: the pandemic now than we were before COVID, largely due 797 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 2: to the insidiousness with which opposition of vaccination vaccines. More broadly, 798 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:23,320 Speaker 2: vaccine skepticism has captured one of the two political coalitionions, 799 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,800 Speaker 2: and Donald Trump has been part of that. He tried 800 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 2: to fight it. In the beginning, there's these really interesting 801 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,280 Speaker 2: moments in his public appearances where he'd talk about the vaccine, 802 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,760 Speaker 2: people would boo, right, But in the end, he'll always 803 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,239 Speaker 2: choose the mob. He'll always choose the crowd. And so 804 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 2: now he's basically positioned himself as anti vax even though 805 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 2: the greatest achievement of his presidency the first time around 806 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,280 Speaker 2: was a vaccine development. 807 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,840 Speaker 1: Before we go, I want to ask you about some 808 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,200 Speaker 1: of these cabinet selections. What about OURFK Junior. 809 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 2: Our f K Junior is more more responsible for the 810 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 2: mass turning away from vaccination than almost any other public figure, 811 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 2: and that has had consequences that add up to tens 812 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,280 Speaker 2: and hundreds of thousands of deaths that shouldn't have happened. 813 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 2: The fact that he petitioned the FDA to rescind its 814 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,880 Speaker 2: approval of the COVID vaccines, as that very same vaccine, 815 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 2: which is the crowning achievement of the first Trump presidency, 816 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 2: the best thing Donald Trump did, and the fact that 817 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,440 Speaker 2: it's saved globally in its first year, according to our 818 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 2: best estimates, around twenty five million lives. It is despicable 819 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 2: to me that this individual will be put in charge 820 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 2: of the nation's health system. I know, I don't want 821 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 2: to end not real modulated on those you know, fine, 822 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 2: Doug Bergham an Interior Marco Rubio, Secretary of State. I mean, 823 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 2: there's a whole bunch where like, sure, go to town. Do 824 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 2: you get to Doug Bergham? Great? Cool? 825 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,040 Speaker 1: You know, like leez Elden is EPA. 826 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 2: Fine. Make Lee's Elden your EPA guy. Good for you, 827 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,279 Speaker 2: you know, make the you know, make the fracking dude 828 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,880 Speaker 2: the head of department Energy. Okay, that's your you know, fine. 829 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: You do you do you before we go, I don't 830 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,840 Speaker 1: want to end on such a down note. And in fact, 831 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 1: you talk about the fact that we live in a 832 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 1: doom obsessed time, which I think is completely accurate, and 833 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: you think a lot about the concept of the opposite 834 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: of doom, and gosh, I don't know, most people I 835 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:43,359 Speaker 1: know are feeling pretty down these days and dispirited. And 836 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 1: whether it's my twenty nine year old daughter or people 837 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: I've known since college, not all of them, by the way, 838 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: but many of them. So what is the antidote for 839 00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:01,799 Speaker 1: a doom obsessed culture? And how can people see light 840 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 1: at the end of what the many view as a 841 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:05,240 Speaker 1: very dark tunnel. 842 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 2: I think one the most important antidotes community to be 843 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 2: in fellowship with people, to be in relationships with people, 844 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:22,400 Speaker 2: talking to people, sharing things with people. Isolation is bad 845 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:29,080 Speaker 2: and pushes us towards doom. I think allowing ourselves the 846 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 2: space to think about the world we want what that 847 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 2: would look like if we weren't in the world we 848 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,839 Speaker 2: are in now is an exercise that we don't do 849 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,720 Speaker 2: anymore of what we should do more of magic, wond 850 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,000 Speaker 2: blank slate. You're the king of the world. What do 851 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 2: you want the world to look like? What do you 852 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:48,880 Speaker 2: want things to be like? 853 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 1: I think it's also focusing on controlling things that you 854 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,480 Speaker 1: can control. Like you were saying earlier, Chris, you can't 855 00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:02,080 Speaker 1: really impact the macrocosmic reasons that ratings are and it's 856 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:06,640 Speaker 1: really not because of anything you're doing. But conversely, I 857 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 1: think we can do positive things and it may not 858 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:16,120 Speaker 1: change the bigger picture, but it'll change our lives absolutely. 859 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,200 Speaker 2: And focusing on things you can control and things you 860 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 2: can do is the other part of this as well. 861 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 2: Don't let yourself get overwhelmed. And the last thing I'll say, 862 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 2: and I think this is actually really important. I find 863 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 2: for myself reading history so useful and encouraging. People have 864 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 2: faced unbelievable odds and done incredible things in the face 865 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 2: of those odds time and time and time and time again. 866 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 2: There's lots of tragedies throughout history, obviously, but there's also 867 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 2: just incredible stories of endurance and persistence and overcoming and 868 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,240 Speaker 2: going back to the those stories and understanding how fraught 869 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,799 Speaker 2: things looked at certain times and how little we know 870 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 2: about what the future will bring. That actually I find 871 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:09,640 Speaker 2: really really comforting. 872 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,880 Speaker 1: What's the most important thing you learned writing this? 873 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,200 Speaker 2: I think the most important thing I learned is that 874 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:26,480 Speaker 2: whatever our technological circumstances and the particulars of this historical moment, 875 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 2: that there are certain features of the human experience that endure. 876 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 2: And there's something truly sublime about the fact that we 877 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 2: are linked in a chain with all the other humans 878 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 2: that came before us, wrestling with their own minds, trying 879 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,160 Speaker 2: to find solace and comfort and answer big questions about 880 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,200 Speaker 2: the world, and that there's something really beautiful about the 881 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:03,839 Speaker 2: continuity of that. That you can read ancient texts that 882 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,879 Speaker 2: speak to some of the things that we think are 883 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 2: very modern and very contemporary, and that we're all linked 884 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 2: together going back thousands and thousands of years. I find 885 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,600 Speaker 2: that really profound and it's really stuck with me. 886 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: The book is called The Sirens Call, How Attention Became 887 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,400 Speaker 1: the World's Most Endangered resource, And I think my takeaway 888 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: is that we have a choice. You know, people may 889 00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:35,960 Speaker 1: be trying to get our attention, they may be trying 890 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,799 Speaker 1: to figure that out, but ultimately it's up to us, 891 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,720 Speaker 1: and we have free will, and whether the Democrats figure 892 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: it out or Donald Trump keeps doing what he's doing, 893 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 1: we have the power to decide where our attention goes. 894 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,360 Speaker 1: I agree, Chris, this was fun. 895 00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:57,520 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it. 896 00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:08,600 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you 897 00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,359 Speaker 1: have a question for me, a subject you want us 898 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,920 Speaker 1: to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about 899 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,680 Speaker 1: how you navigate this crazy world, reach out send me 900 00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,680 Speaker 1: a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. 901 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,320 Speaker 1: Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. 902 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,360 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. 903 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,920 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are 904 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:39,680 Speaker 1: Adriana Fazzio. And Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. 905 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up 906 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,800 Speaker 1: for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description 907 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,760 Speaker 1: in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. 908 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,440 Speaker 1: You can also find me on Instagram and all my 909 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:58,239 Speaker 1: social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 910 00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:02,480 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app app podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 911 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,400 Speaker 1: favorite shows,