WEBVTT - Sal Khan on AI for the Classroom 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:09.120 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to Bloomberg 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:13.680 Business Week with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.360 Carol, we got our report card and it's not good. 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:16.880 All right. 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.560 Us fourth and eighth grade students are struggling with reading comprehension, 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.759 with last year's nationwide testing showing the worst results in 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:24.760 more than two decades. 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:26.520 It kind of blows my mind because I know how 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:27.880 much money is spent on education. 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.960 Yeah. So this is the congressionally mandated assessment in twenty 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.960 twenty four. The results were released yesterday by the National 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.880 Assessment of Educational Progress na EP. Curious what sal Con 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:40.320 has to say about this. He's the founder and CEO 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.320 of con Academy. It's the nonprofit that provides free lessons 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.400 in math and history, economics, computer programming, and more. He's 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.519 back with us from Mountain View, California. So always good 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:51.440 to chat with you. How are you. 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:53.920 I'm doing well, Thanks for having me. 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:56.360 Did this reading score surprise you? 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:05.120 Unfortunate? Unfortunately not. You know, we've and the Nate folks 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.760 made this clear also in their report. I think we 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:13.039 still have the effects of the pandemic nationwide, The scores nationally, 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.640 both in math and reading, both in fourth and eighth grade, 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.600 still haven't recovered from the twenty nineteen level. This is 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.520 true in almost every state as well. And it's you know, 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.320 we had big gaps then a lot of kids kind 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:27.839 of fell off the rails then and haven't fully gotten 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:30.880 back on. And then there's just a lot of you know, 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.280 complexity in serving different groups of students and demographic mix etc. 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:37.720 That probably has made it even harder. You know. 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:42.560 What's worrying too is that I think some would say 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:48.480 it's the pandemic, yes, but we've had problems with our 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.040 education system right across the country for a while here, 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:54.920 and it feels like the gaps are widening. I mean, 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.200 I want to ask you, I am curious, sal because 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.720 you've been in you know, this world for a long time. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:02.800 What's happening with American education? 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:06.080 You know? 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.239 Unfortunately it's kind of a tale of two cities is 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:13.760 the right metaphor here? And the NAPE scores validated that 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.440 the higher performing students actually started to pull further and 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.520 further ahead. And a lot of times when you look 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:20.519 at some of these PISA rankings, when we compare ourselves 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.079 to other countries, et cetera. If you were to separate 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.720 some of the higher performing, wealthier schools and the suburbs, 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.960 et cetera, they actually can compete with anyone in the world, 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:31.920 actually do better than anyone in the world. But I 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:37.360 think you have other large chunks of America where they're 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.360 really really lagging. And these NAPE scores only only validated 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:42.960 you had a third of eighth graders didn't even have 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.120 basic reading comprehension. I just visited a school yesterday out 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:51.959 here in northern California, and I met two English language 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.360 learners who, you know, not only are they, you know, 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.119 obviously can't speak English, but they haven't gone to school before, 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.520 they haven't read before, or they can't read it all, 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.840 even in their native language. So I think when you, 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.840 I think those types of difficulties are some of what 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.360 you're seeing here on top of on top of the pandemic. 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.760 And unfortunately I don't I don't think just doing more 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:15.519 of the same is actually the solution here. This is 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.640 something that we've always talked about at Kin Academy, is 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.959 how do we personalize education more? You know? And I 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:22.440 saw that teacher that that same teacher that had these 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.440 two students who couldn't read, who are fifth graders, also 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.560 had some students who are ready for ninth grade math. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.240 So they had a huge spread in that same classroom, 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.080 and you can't just do one thing for all of 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.240 those thirty students. And that's where we think technology can 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.160 help that teacher address the needs of each each individual student. 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.920 You know, the President has has cited how the US 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:48.200 lags behind other Western nations despite federal spending on students, 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.920 and you know, he is looking to potentially dismantle the 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:57.560 Department of Education. Do you think that would be helpful? 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.800 You know, we'll need to see how it all evolves. 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.080 A lot of folks have been asking me this, even 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.160 in our own team. We work obviously with a lot 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.240 of school districts. The Department of Education does a lot 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.760 of things, but they aren't a major major funder of schools. 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.360 Depending on what year you look at and what schools, 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.560 anywhere between three and ten percent of funding in a 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.800 given year comes from the federal Department of Education, and 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.720 it tends to be tied to certain programs, so some 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.200 of those might suffer. Some of those are there by law. 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.039 One of our board members is a former Under Secretary 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.080 of Education, and he was explaining to me yesterday a 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.800 day before yesterday at our board meeting, that there are 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:39.520 certain things in there that are just part of law 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.640 that even if the Department of Education were dismantled, someone 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:44.440 else would have to take it over the Department of 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.480 the Treasury, Department or Health and Human Services, etc. So 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.800 it's too early to tell exactly what the implications are, 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:55.000 but most of education spending and policy actually does happen 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:56.039 at the state and local level. 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.080 Yeah, so this is where you think about like state taxes, right, 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.839 or city taxes and so on and so forth that 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.839 really are the determining factor. How can AI help with 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:07.760 all of this? This is something you guys are certainly 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.760 in the middle of and improve the gaps that we 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.800 see within education across the United States. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.000 Yeah, this is something that we're definitely leaning into. And 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.279 it's very easy to get enamored with technology, but I 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.360 remind everyone this isn't about the technology. It's about the 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.840 core problem you're trying to solve. And the problem we're 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:26.680 trying to solve is the one we started talking about. 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.000 Is you have a teacher in a classroom before the pandemic, 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.960 Your average teacher had three grade levels in the same classroom. 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.320 They're all fifth graders, but some are operating in a 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.080 second or third grade level. Some of them are ready 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.160 to operate at a sixth or seventh grade level. It's 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:40.599 gotten worse since the pandemic, as we just talked about. 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:42.800 So if you're a teacher, how do you address all 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:43.920 of those needs? How do you make sure some of 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.400 the kids aren't bored and all some of the kids 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.640 aren't lost. And so the opportunity is, well, what if 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.640 you could personalize? In world class education has always looked 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.000 like one to one. I always point out Alexander the 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.000 Great had Aristotle as his personal tutor. We couldn't afford 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.400 to give every student that. But what kind academy has 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.679 been trying to do over the last fifteen twenty years 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.160 is well, maybe we could approximate elements of that with 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.560 on demand video, with software and now generative AI. I 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:08.920 write a lot about it in my book Brave New Words. 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.200 We think generative AI. It's it's not going to do everything, 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.600 it's not on a silver bullet, but over time it's 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:16.240 going to get better and better at being able to 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:18.839 provide even more personalized support, not just for students, but 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.240 also also for teachers with things like lesson plans and 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:23.080 grading papers and writing progress reports. 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.560 Sally had you on back in May when Brave New 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.719 Words came out how AI will revolutionize education and why 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:31.960 that's a good thing. I spoke to someone yesterday who 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.080 talked about the pace of development when it comes to 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.480 AI is just unbelievable. Like he says, the world changes 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.680 every few months as a result of this technology. How 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:43.240 much has it changed since he wrote the book. 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:46.400 Yeah, it was actually one of my fears when I 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.200 was writing the book, write a book by AI will 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:50.719 to be outdated of the day it comes out. Luckily, 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:52.440 I still think it's pretty you know. I tried to 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:56.039 make it pretty general, and even a year ago when 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:57.880 when you know, I was finishing up the writing, it 0:06:57.880 --> 0:06:59.680 was pretty clear how fast this was moving, so I 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:01.599 tried to make a little bit more evergreen. But yeah, 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.360 it's been mind blowingly fast. Not even every few months, 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.960 I would say, sometimes on a daily basis. Things are 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.200 things are evolving a lot of what I challenge the 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.000 con Academy team is what can we uniquely do as 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.120 a nonprofit that other people aren't going to have the 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.680 horizon or the motivation to work on and what are 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.160 we going to do that's really AI proof And we 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:20.840 think a lot of it is how do we connect 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.280 humans together? Maybe using AI, but how do we for 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:25.960 more human connections? Maybe? How do how do people create 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:29.360 proof that they know something credentially once again, how do 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.880 you how do you make sure it's pedagogically sound as 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.080 opposed to just you know, throwing an AI in front 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.080 of people. But yes, it is definitely something my head 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.360 haspens almost on a daily basis. But you know, everyone 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:41.000 feels that way. 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.360 You know, it's funny. Forgive me for doing this, but 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.240 I guess because it's been front and center. You know, 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.880 we're talking AI, and we've been watching what's been going 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:52.160 on in the US government, and The Washington Post had 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:58.520 said today reported representatives from Elon Musk's Dose service have 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:02.000 fed sensitive data from across the Education Department into AI 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.560 software to look into the agency's programs and spending. According 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:10.600 to people familiar, AI being used to investigate where there's 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:16.920 personal data possibly accessed. You are in this world? Is 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.680 that something we should be concerned about, whether it's Department 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.440 of Education or the Treasury department. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.160 Well, you know, I don't I'm not an expert on 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:31.360 exactly what has happened. But yes, anytime we're talking about data, 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.160 data related to education in particular, you have to be 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.319 super cautious about how it's being used, especially if it's 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.640 potentially student data. This is something where as we take 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:41.440 this very seriously as a nonprofit, and when we go 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.840 work with school districts we point out like not every 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:45.880 for profit company has the same incentives that we do. 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.440 You have to be very cautious here on how you 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.440 use it. Now if it's all on the up and up, 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:55.360 and I don't know, I don't know what the fine 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.880 print is on this data. You know, there could be 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.319 uses of AI where you can use it to make 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.320 sense of large amounts of information that otherwise, of you know, 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.600 an individual human being would never be able to sift through. 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.560 But yeah, I don't know the details of how they're 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:08.960 using it. 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:09.760 No, that's fair. 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:09.960 Hey. 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.200 One other news thing that obviously we've been obsessed about 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.760 the last couple of weeks Deep Seek, you know, and 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:19.000 the prospect of AI maybe being less expensive to do 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.120 and the models to be able to do. When I 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.400 think about education, might that make it even more accessible 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:29.080 for students around the globe. 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.520 Yeah, I mean I thought it was great news from 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.200 our point of view. The costs have already come down 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.120 even before deep Seek by a factor of ten, and 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:39.360 so I expected that to continue. And then deep Seek 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:41.000 and some of their techniques I think is only going 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:43.480 to accelerate it. But you know, I also point out 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.400 there's an unending amount of things that we can use 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:49.640 AI for. You know, basic chat bots are going to 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.520 become close to free, very cheap. But now if the 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.760 compute or if the if the applications use less compute 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:58.760 and the compute gets cheaper, we're going to be able 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.920 to do more real time, more audio, more visual things. 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.080 And yes, in education in other places, I think that's 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.040 that's only a win for the application developers. 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.599 What's the balance of technology in the classroom. It's a 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:10.840 discussion that we had with you last time, but it 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.960 seems like it's only becoming more and more of a thing. 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.679 How do you use technology as a tool but not 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:17.480 as a distraction. 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.480 Yeah, and we have a school out here in Northern 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:23.640 California's where my kids go to school, con Lab School. 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:25.480 And you know, if you were to visit the school. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.760 People say, oh, so sociocon Academy must be technology all 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.040 the time. No, you'd actually see more human to human 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.120 interaction than you would see I think at almost any 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:34.680 other school. And I think it's all about I would 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.800 say maybe depending on the age as you get older, 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.280 middle school, high school, college, you could get up to 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.679 thirty forty fifty percent leveraging technology. You're going to code, 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:45.600 you're going to write a paper, you're going to edit video, 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:48.760 you're going to do personalized practice on con academy to 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:50.720 fill in your gaps. And then what that does is 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:52.760 that liberates the class time so that you don't have 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:54.679 to give the lectures anymore. You don't have a bunch 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.000 of kids with their fingers on their lips just passively listening. 0:10:57.160 --> 0:10:59.040 You can have the kids work on harder problems. Can 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.040 they could do simulations, they can do games, and that's 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:02.880 what we try to do. And you know, I always 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.040 point out even without technology, you can have very dehumanizing classrooms, 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:07.800 but if you use technology, well you could have very 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:08.960 humanizing classrooms. 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:09.240 Yeah. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:09.480 Right. 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.160 You just think about kind of where it could go, 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.240 and especially the idea of personalization in terms of teaching 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.600 could be really a cool thing, so com Thank you 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:18.719 so much. I always appreciate the time you give us. 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.920 He is founder and chief executive officer of con Academy, 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.480 joining us from Mountain View, California. You know the other 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:26.240 thing I think about with teaching and AI is I 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.600 just think about if you're I was a pretty shy 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.280 kid and hard to believe, but like might be afraid 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.880 to like offer up an answer or something because you 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:36.320 think it's silly. But maybe if you're working with an 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:40.920 AI teacher or ta oh, like just think about what 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:42.120 you can maybe get out of that. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.480 I think d Lingo said that they have these AI 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.600 educators rather than live people because they find that people 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:51.800 who are learning languages want to interact with that tech. 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.280 Yeah, that makes complete sat on because you feel embarrassed 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.680 about like your pronunciations or something. All right, everybody, we 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:02.200 are continuing here on Bloomberg. This is Business. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:06.319 Week, Carol. The White House received more than seventy four 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.160 hundred requests for credentials one day after saying it would 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.559 open press briefings for content creators, influencers, and podcasters. 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:12.960 A lot. 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.160 Social media influencers are becoming a primary source of news 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.640 for many Americans. Nearly forty percent of young adults under 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.440 thirty rely on influencers to stay updated on current events 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:25.920 and politics. This is according to the Pew Research Center. 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.480 Opening its press conferences to non traditional news sources allows 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.800 influencers to directly question administration officials. 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.960 Yeah, it's really kind of interesting these development. Emily Ward 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.720 and Jess Hunishen are the co founders of the influencer 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.920 talent management and brand partnerships agencies called Shine Ventures. Emily 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:46.960 joining us from Toronto, Jess joins us from La. Great 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.320 to be talking with both of you again before we 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.880 get going, though, Jess, I do want to reach out 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:57.120 to you. You're in LA. We spent several weeks continue 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:58.720 to cover the fires. 0:12:59.240 --> 0:12:59.840 How are you. 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:04.000 I hope you were okay those around you, your community. 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:08.640 Yeah, so I'm just in West Hollywood, so no immediate 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.120 damage here. But it certainly is true what they say 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:12.800 that everyone knows someone who. 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.360 Was very, very personally affected. 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:17.640 So we have a lot of those people kind of 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.360 just like in our Shine work network in my personal network. 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.880 And yeah, it's been a tough start to the year here, 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.520 that's for sure. But I think the best thing that 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.040 can ever come out of this is you know, it 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.920 shows how much community can can come together in a 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:33.800 time of crisis. 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.679 So yeah, yeah, it is nice to see all the 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.280 rallying and you're so right about so much coming at 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.160 everybody across the nation. We obviously have been following so 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:44.959 much coming out of DC, and we kind of want 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:49.599 to start there. Tim was mentioning about social media influencers 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.320 becoming a primary source of news for so many Americans 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:54.959 and how the White House press room and has opened 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.320 it up to non traditional news sources. What does that 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:05.240 mean from yoursfective, You guys understand the influencer community and economy, 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:08.120 and let me start with you in terms of what 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.960 that means coming from the White House and just you 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.800 know how influential they are on maybe softer topics, but 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.880 also more important topics as well. 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.280 I think it's incredibly interesting and it reminds me of, 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.360 you know, ten years ago when we started Shine Talent 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.040 Group out of Canada, and at that time there was 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:32.560 really a big shift within the media marketplace. A lot 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.440 of lifestyle publications had shut down and pr agencies were 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.640 looking for other sources to kind of get the news out, 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.760 so they started to lean on bloggers, bloggers who weren't 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.600 hired by my media houses, and everybody had to figure 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.840 out this exchange of how these people be compensated for 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.520 their time. But it reminds me of that moment because 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:57.200 at that time bloggers started to be taken very seriously 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.680 in terms of how they could be communicating to consumers, 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.200 and where they used to be more of like a 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.560 B list kind of invite to PR events, brand events, 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.080 they started to become quite primary at that time. So 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:10.240 it's very similar. 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:16.640 Do you just advise your clients to stay away from politics, 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.440 not way in on these issues, or do you tell 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:20.320 them to be themselves? 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.560 Definitely don't advise to stay away from it. I think 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:30.320 it's really important for influences and brands alike to kind 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.120 of show like, this is what my morals are, this 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.400 is what I'm aligned with, this is potentially who I'm 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:36.120 voting for. 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:37.320 We saw a lot of that. 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.040 Around the election, and we certainly certainly didn't ask our 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:42.760 talent to shy away from it. 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.560 I got to tell you, I'm surprised Jess to hear 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.240 that about brands, because it seems like we saw a 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.960 lot of that back in twenty twenty and now they 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.960 want to they want nothing to do with politics because 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:56.000 of so much pushback. 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:58.120 Yeah, I think. 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.840 There's been a bit of a mixed result on that. 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:02.800 I've seen a lot of friends that I see online 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.840 who have you know, kind of made their stances very 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.840 well known and what they believe in and what they support, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:14.320 especially when it comes to maybe it's not party specific, 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:19.840 but it is very strong on certain subject matter, which 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:23.240 you know, climate change, reproductive rights, things like that that 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.880 brands are like, this is where we stand and we're 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:27.040 not going to shy away from that. 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:28.720 One of the things we want to ask too is 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:33.280 you guys have been you know, expanding and you acquired 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.800 Spark Talent Group, and so you have some great a 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:38.600 great vantage point in terms of what you are seeing 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.800 in terms of the influencers and the growth of it. 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:42.600 So let me maybe ask both of you, and just 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:44.360 let me start with you. I mean, what is it 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.520 that's going on? How much growth are you seeing and 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:50.240 more and more people come into the influencer space, and 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.720 how is it evolving? It's not new, right, It's now 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.840 been around for a little while, but how is it 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.360 evolving as kind of something that either you know works 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.080 for a company or mission or so on. 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.879 Well, I think, you know, we're seeing just more and 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:09.320 more brands lean heavily and kind of expand their marketing 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:11.880 budget to have influencer marketing be a. 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:13.200 Larger piece of the pie. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.159 We keep hearing that this is going to be a 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:21.240 five million, sorry, five hundred billion dollar industry by I 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:23.359 think it's the end of next year, which is which 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:26.480 is wild. I feel like this industry kind of had 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.560 a very grassroots movement about it, So it's it's very 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:31.800 cool to see how much it's grown. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.560 Emily come on in on it too, in your perspective, 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:36.600 as you guys have been in it, you know now 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.960 for several years. You said, you started your firm ten 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:45.160 years ago. You know how the how influencers as you know, 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:49.880 a medium a mean, you know, is evolving and growing. 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.240 Well, what I think it's standing truely for me right 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.399 now is the fact that it doesn't seem to be 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:00.400 platform specific, and that kind of brings you know, thenversation 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.520 around the TikTok ban and what kind of impact that 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.800 was going to be having, like on the industry as 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:11.000 a whole, and where I think back, you know, ten 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.080 years ago, five years ago, it was very reliant on 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.159 certain platforms that existed, and I feel like now like 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:22.359 the influencers, the creators themselves have diversified across like multiple platforms. 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:24.359 We've seen the ones who have invested in this in 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:28.720 terms of, you know, a career and it doesn't matter 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.719 so much in terms of what platform it is that 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.840 they have this they have this followership that would move 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.920 along with them. So that's that's a really big change. 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.359 So a ban of TikTok then, Emily wouldn't necessarily be, 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.560 you know, the end for these influencers. They'll just move 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:46.639 to a different platform. 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:51.040 It certainly would would would cause impact. It's not to 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.920 say that it wouldn't have any impact, but I think 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.879 the truth is is that there would be another platform 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.560 that ether pops up or content would go back to 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.280 another primary platform. So in terms of advice that we 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.720 gave our talent during this time was to make sure 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:12.639 that they were diversifying their content amongst many platforms that 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.880 they had both social platforms and owned platforms as well, 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.400 like newsletters, their own websites that they could invest time 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.080 and invest distribution in. 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:24.440 And like we. 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.160 Saw with the rise of Tiktokic over over covid. When 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.359