1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 1: On this episode of Its World. On Thursday, June twenty ninth, 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court ruled in two cases brought by students 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: for Farir Admissions, Inc. The cases were Students for Fair Admissions, Inc. 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: Versus the University of North Carolina and Students for Farir 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: Admissions Inc. Versus the President and Fellow of Harvard College. 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: In the Supreme Court syllabus for the case, they say, quote, 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: both Harvard and UNC employ a highly selective admissions process 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: to make their decisions. Admission to each school can depend 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: on the student's grades, recommendation letters, or extra curricular involvement. 10 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: It can also depend on their race. The question presented 11 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: is whether the admission systems used by Harvard College and 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: un C are lawful under the equal Protection clause of 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: the Fourteenth Amendment end quote. In a six to three ruling, 14 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court banned race conscious college admission. My guest 15 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: today has a new book out, When Race Trump's Merit, 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: and it couldn't be time later. So I'm really pleased 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: to welcome my guest, a brilliant academic and a student 18 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: of America, Heather McDonald. She is the Thomas W. Smith 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, a contributing editor, a city journal, 20 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: and a New York Times bestselling author. Heather, Welcome and 21 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me on this world, Oh. 22 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: Speaker Gingrich, this is such a pleasure. Thank you for 23 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: your service to the country and for continuing in your 24 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 2: crusade for truth and some sanity in the American Republic. 25 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: It's interesting the timing you have here, I say this 26 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: is a fellow author could not be better. I gather 27 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: you began writing when race Trump's merit, long before these 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: cases appeared in front of the Supreme Court. What prompted 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: you to write this particular book. 30 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: A combination of sorrow and rage, Speaker Gingrich. Sorrow that 31 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: the things that I love the most, which is the 32 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: highest accomplishments of Western civilization, whether it's classical music, art, rationality, 33 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: or the scientific method, are being torn down in the 34 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: name of a lie, which is that everything about the West, 35 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: including the United States, is fundamentally racist and should be 36 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: destroyed and replaced with something far uglier, far more mediocre, 37 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: far more petty. And rage that the people who should 38 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 2: be curating the extraordinary traditions that is their obligation and 39 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 2: their privilege to pass on to future generations have turned 40 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: on their own legacy in order to qualify themselves as 41 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: many members of the woke elite. They are teaching young 42 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: children to hate the legacy of Western civilization. Whether that 43 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: legacy is the great accomplishments of constitutional government and the 44 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: rule of law, whether that legacy is the great accomplishments 45 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 2: of Beethoven, Bach and Schubert and Mozart, whether it's the 46 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: accomplishments of medicine, of the scientific method. They are cowards 47 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: and they deserve nothing but contempt. 48 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: Like you, I've used to teaching college and I have 49 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: an academic background. What do you think happened? What went wrong? 50 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 3: Boy? 51 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: There's so many currents that go into this, but I'll 52 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: tell you Newton My favorite is that in the nineteen fifties, 53 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 2: the United States created something that was unique in human history, 54 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: which is a youth culture. We had become so fabulously 55 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: successful with capitalism that we had so much monies lashing 56 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: around that for the first time in human history, adolescents, 57 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: some of the most idiotic individuals on the planet, who 58 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: are self engrossed, ignorant, had their own independent source of 59 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: spending power conferred upon them by their parents and so 60 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: corporations sensing a whole new market here and a whole 61 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: new way to make money, were conspiring and creating a 62 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: youth culture, whether it's the music, the magazines, the TV shows, 63 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: the movies. And at the same time we put adolescents 64 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 2: at the top of sort of the pinnacle of respect. 65 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: So we had in the nineteen sixties flower Power, the 66 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: whole counter cultural revolution. You had these idiot students turning 67 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: on UC Berkeley, turning on Cornell, turning on Columbia University, 68 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 2: claiming that they knew better than their professors, and the 69 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: professors were cowards. They backed down. They refused at that 70 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: moment to say shut up, go and study for your 71 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 2: chemistry exam, or go and study for your history exam. 72 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 3: Instead they cowered. 73 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 2: You had the black militants showing up in President's administration office. 74 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 3: With guns, with machine guns, and. 75 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 2: Of course America was starting at that point its long 76 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: tragic capitulation to race guilt, and so rather than taking 77 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 2: out these black activist militants at gunpoint, they were again 78 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: catered to, viewed as heroes. We had black studies departments, 79 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: and from then on nothing about the university was in 80 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: accord with what should be its founding principle, which is 81 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: to pass on our inheritance to young people to have 82 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 2: an open mind towards oppositional points of view and debate. 83 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: And instead, the university was taken over by the students. 84 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: The faculty eventually joined the students in their own oppositional mindset, 85 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: and the poisonous ideology of academia then spread throughout the 86 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: country into corporations and that's where we stand today. 87 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: And as part of that process, we went from a 88 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: anti black segregationist racism to what is now a pro 89 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: black racism. It's a phenomenal transition, and in a sense, 90 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: it seems to me that the Supreme Court case is 91 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: one of the places where the system starts to really 92 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: come to grips with itself and that this is a 93 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: real shock. What was your response to the two Supreme 94 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: Court decisions on affirmative action. 95 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I just want to support what 96 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: you just said, Newt, because it's extremely important. We went 97 00:06:54,720 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: from a regime of indisputable white privilege, of indisputable apartheid 98 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: and white supremacy. The American people treated blacks with gratuitous 99 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 2: contempt and hostility for centuries. We lived in overt contradiction 100 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: to our founding ideals. It is heartbreaking to read that history, 101 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: and I think frankly conservative histories don't do enough to 102 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: acknowledge that fact. I can both say that, I can 103 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: both say that America did tragically and really just in 104 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: a completely callous way, violate its ideals. And I can 105 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: also say that the reality today is not white privilege, 106 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 2: it is black privilege in every single mainstream institution. There 107 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: is not a single mainstream institution, whether it's a law firm, 108 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: an Alzheimer's research lab, a big tech firm, a university, 109 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 2: an elementary school that is not twisting itself into knots 110 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: to hire and promote as many blacks as possible. And 111 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: I'm going to go further newt and I'm going to 112 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: say that if your listeners have children or grandchildren who 113 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: are straight white males, it's basically over for them. They 114 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: are at the bottom of the heap as far as 115 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: getting considered for jobs or for promotions. We have institutions 116 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: that are engaged in explicit white culling, that congratulate themselves 117 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 2: on bringing down their proportion of whites, whether it's in 118 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: a student body, a faculty body, whether it's docents working 119 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: for the Art Institute of Chicago that canceled its entire 120 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: free educational process, which is given by something called docins, 121 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: which are volunteer student educators. It canceled its entire docent 122 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: program because they were white. So we're engaged in explicit 123 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: white culling. And to say that we have white privileged 124 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: today is completely fanciful, and yet the race activists continue 125 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: to get away with it. The Supreme Court decisions were 126 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 2: a step in the right direction. I was glad for them. 127 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: I wish I can say I was unqualifiedly glad for them. 128 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: I worry that the extent of perniciousness on the part 129 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 2: of these universities, their self love, their belief that they 130 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: are superior to every other American institution as such that 131 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: they will take up Chief Justice John roberts invitation to 132 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: use race as part of the already existing holistic admissions process. 133 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 2: They're going to run with it. So they are not 134 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: going to go to color blind admissions, you could be 135 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: sure of that. Nevertheless, it was a very welcome step 136 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 2: in the right direction. And you know what I think 137 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: is fundamental about this moment, Speaker Gingrich, is that we 138 00:09:54,240 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: have allowed students, their advisors, the activists who are in 139 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 2: a codependent relationship with them, the diversity, equity and inclusion 140 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: bureaucrats who engage in these little theatrical demonstrations of victimhood, 141 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: to equate two things that are quite different. They equate 142 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: a black student not being admitted to a school because 143 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: his test scores are too low with a black student 144 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: not being admitted to a school because his skin color 145 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: is the wrong color. We are never, ever today in 146 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: the second condition. In fact, black students are being admitted 147 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 2: to schools across the land with test scores that would 148 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: be automatically disqualifying if presented by whites and Asians. If ever, 149 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: they were not to get in because their test scores 150 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: are too low. We're saying that is racist, that that 151 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: is per se racist. 152 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: It is not. 153 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 2: We have decided that using meritocratic standards is now the 154 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 2: equivalent of being racist. And that's what my book is about, 155 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: which is the way the left is working today, the 156 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 2: way it is managing to tear down every institution of 157 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 2: Western civilization, is to say that any meritocratic or behavioral 158 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: standard that has a negative disparate impact on blacks is 159 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: per se racist and must come down, and that's how 160 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 2: we're committing suicide. 161 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to say, in terms of educating doctors, 162 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: are for that matter, educating engineers or airline pilots. If 163 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: in fact merit ceases to be the standard, you're president 164 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: going to have disasters. 165 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 2: We are absolutely moving towards disaster. And I shake my 166 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: head at how oblivious a lot of the American public 167 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 2: seems to be about the importance of meritocratic standards. The 168 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: medical issue should be the thing that is closest to home. 169 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: Medical schools are again admitting black college with MCAT scores. 170 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: The MCATs are the standardized admission tests for medical schools. 171 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 2: They're called the Medical College Admissions Test. They're the equivalent 172 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: at the medical school level of the SATs. Medical schools 173 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 2: admit black students with MCAT scores that would be automatically 174 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 2: disqualifying if presented by a white and Asian student. They 175 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: are that low, they admit them, and guess what happens. 176 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: They don't do well in their classes because they are 177 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: in an academic environment for which they are not competitively qualified. 178 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: So what are we doing now? We are lowering the 179 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: standards for qualifying doctors so that we can make sure 180 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 2: that more black medical students can pass. We went from 181 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: a graded system for the first step of the medical 182 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: licensing exam to a pass fail basis, so that residencies 183 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: can't know who the best medical students are. The pressure 184 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 2: is on to change step two of the medical licensing exam. 185 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: We have already eliminated the academic standard for the medical 186 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: School Honor Society to make it more community based. The 187 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: pressure is on. The pressure is on. The pressure is 188 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: on on medical school faculties to hire blacks. The pressure 189 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: is on on hospitals to hire blacks. Of course, they 190 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: should hire qualified blacks. There is no racism, and there 191 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: should be none, but there is none. It is going 192 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: to matter. And the only study that I've been able 193 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: to track down about this new somebody told me that 194 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: there was a health economist at Harvard University who did 195 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 2: a very very sophisticated study of trying to randomize people 196 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: that had heart attacks driving on the highways going into 197 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: hospitals with their heart coronary problem, and to correlate that 198 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 2: with minority doctors. I can tell you this not The 199 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 2: results were apparently so explosive that this health economist decided 200 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 2: he could not publish his rescius, and ever since then 201 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: this has been a topic so taboo that nobody dares 202 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: to touch it. 203 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: It seems to me that the group that's actually the 204 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: most hurt by this are Asian Americans, because they have 205 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: strong family backgrounds and strong commitment to education, and therefore 206 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: they're the most likely to overperform if merit actually matters. 207 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: It's hilarious the Asians have to squeeze through a smaller 208 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 2: and smaller eye of the needle every year because they 209 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: are being excluded from colleges in order to set aside 210 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: admission slots for blacks. The posture of the plaintiff's case 211 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: at Harvard was they thought it was very clever. They 212 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: were going to move the usual analysis of affirmative action 213 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: college admissions cases from looking at blacks versus whites, and 214 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 2: they actually made it for whites against Asians. Curiously enough, 215 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: and at the trial court there was a whole lot 216 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: of emphasis on how Harvard distributed its personal ratings to Asians, 217 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 2: and the plaintiff's lawyer, Edward Blumm, made the case that 218 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 2: Asians were in the same situation as Jews at Harvard. 219 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: In the first half of the twentieth century that there 220 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 2: was rampant anti Asian sentiment the way there was anti semitism. 221 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: I actually very much disagreed with that analysis, Newt. There 222 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 2: was real anti semitism, not just at Harvard but across 223 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 2: all the IVY leagues, and that's why Jews were being excluded. 224 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: There's really not anti Chinese or anti Japanese or Korean 225 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: sentiment today. The only reason that Asians are being kept 226 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: out is simply to make room for blacks, and so 227 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: it is a zero sum game. But here's the thing 228 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: that I find just hilarious Newt. The Asians keep upping 229 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: their game. You know, they're whoopen everybody's ass out there, 230 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: and so Harvard will, well, sorry, you know, by now 231 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: you need to have beyond perfect SAT scores, beyond perfect aps, 232 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: and the Asians just say, okay, we'll do it. And 233 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: meanwhile everybody else is sort of slashing along. So yes, 234 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 2: they are the ones that are most screwed. The lawsuit 235 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 2: was in their name. I hope that they get even 236 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: more politically active. This goes for reparations as well. It's 237 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: just insane that the Asians in San Francisco should be 238 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: asked to pay five hundred thousand dollars a household or 239 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: whatever it is for reparations for blacks. Unfortunately, Asians are 240 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: rather passive politically, and they want to be members of 241 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 2: the elite, and being a member of the elite in 242 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: the United States means being a member of the Democratic Party. 243 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: And we'll hope that more Asians, as smart as they are, 244 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 2: become a little smarter politically and realize that their future 245 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: lies in the Republican part and its commitment to color 246 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 2: blind meritocracy. 247 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: You mentioned reparations, the notion that if any reparations are 248 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: going to be paid anywhere, they should start with reparations 249 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: for the families who lost loved ones in the Union 250 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: Army and the Civil War who actually died trying to 251 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: free the slaves. 252 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 2: And you know, I have to say, I've been on 253 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: a black history reading tour on Audible and it has 254 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 2: shaken me to my core with regards to the ubiquity 255 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 2: of cruelty towards blacks. The other thing that does come out, 256 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 2: though newt is exactly what you're talking about, that there 257 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 2: were voice is throughout American history that were utterly courageous, eloquent, 258 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: and noble in their opposition to the slavery regime and 259 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: subsequently to Jim Crow. And they do deserve our gratitude 260 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 2: and our recognition. And here's another possible alternative reparation scheme, 261 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: and this is a little bit more mischievous than yours 262 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: newt which is, how about reparations for whites. I mean, 263 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: I don't even know if I dare say this, but 264 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 2: how about counting what we have spent on the consequences 265 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: of black inner city dysfunction. And I'm thinking here of 266 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 2: medical hospital emergency room costs treating gunshot victims because of 267 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 2: this epidemic of drive by shootings that is going on 268 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 2: every single day in the black community, where you have 269 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: dozens of Blacks being mowed down in homicide every single day. 270 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 2: That is more than all white and Hispanic homicide victims combined, 271 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 2: even though Blacks are only thirteen percent of the nation's population. 272 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 2: They're gunning down young children in these barbaric drive by shootings, 273 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: and everybody is paying the costs through the emergency room care, 274 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: the policing, the efforts at closing the academic skills gap 275 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: through transfer payments in school education. So we should also 276 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 2: at least do a tally of what the country has 277 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: been spending to try to close the skills gap, to 278 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 2: try to close the crime gap and reach a endpoint 279 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: of equal outcomes. But at this point, my conclusion, Newt, 280 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, is that the change has to come from within. 281 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: There is not a heck of a lot more that 282 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: the external culture can do. The culture has to change 283 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: from within. 284 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: It's amazing how numb we have become to violence. Back 285 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, the Saint Valentine's Day massacre in 286 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: Chicago killed seven people, and it was a nationwide shocking 287 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: event because though it seemed like such a huge number, 288 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: nowadays we have some weekends where seven people in Chicago 289 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: or San Francisco, or New York or Philadelphia is just 290 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: a weekend as usual. I really is a sobering reminder 291 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: of how much the system has decayed. I have to 292 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: ask you one thing about the decisions, because I'm very puzzled. 293 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: What is your take on the way in which Chief 294 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: Justice John Roberts is continually sort of meandering back and 295 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: forth trying to find some way to be clever. 296 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 3: What example do you have of that, First. 297 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: Of all, the way in which he worked out that 298 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: Obamacare was illegal, but it wasn't really illegal. The convolutedness 299 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: of that decision startled me. A good example is the 300 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: one that you mentioned in terms of these is where 301 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: he goes out of his way to say, now, of course, 302 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: if you'd like to put in your letter describing your 303 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: personal experiences, that certainly would be appropriate. Just basically opening 304 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,479 Speaker 1: the door and saying to the Harvards of the world, 305 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: here is the clever way to continue to be able 306 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: to ensure they're allowing people to come in who fit 307 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: your ideological hole. 308 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 2: Well, I'm so glad you agree with me in my 309 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: reaction to that, and I'm going to play devil's advocate. 310 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 2: I've had a recent exchange via email with somebody who 311 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: i'm highly highly respect, John McGinnis, who's a professor at 312 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: Northwestern Law School, and he defended what I see as 313 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 2: just a massive loophole of saying, of course, you can 314 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 2: look at the college admission to essay, and his claim 315 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 2: was Roberts could have said nothing other than that because 316 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 2: he can't prevent students from writing about that in their 317 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: admissions essay, and so he had to acknowledge reality. I 318 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 2: guess he thought it would be too far to say, well, 319 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: you can't even talk about race and your admissions essay. 320 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 2: So I'm just going to put in an argument out 321 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: there in defense of Roberts to your broader question speaker 322 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 2: Gingrich about what to make of Roberts with his efforts 323 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 2: at seemingly reaching out to the other side. I just 324 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,959 Speaker 2: think he's one of those men who does believe in 325 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 2: trying to be a peace broker between the two sides 326 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 2: and is not inflamed with a sense of anger at 327 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: what's happening on the left, whether he doesn't see it, 328 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 2: whether he does not have the temperament to feel like 329 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 2: this is the end of the world, which is what 330 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 2: I feel, or whether he just feels like the best 331 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 2: way out of our current conundrum is to try and 332 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: keep as many allies on the other side as possible, 333 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 2: and I think maybe we should be grateful for that. 334 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 2: I am so troubled by the fact that we are 335 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 2: lost now any semblance of naivete about judicial reasoning, sort 336 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 2: of the legal realist. We are all legal realists now. 337 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: They said that it's a fiction to believe in neutral adjudication, 338 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 2: that they were very interested in judges' backgrounds in their 339 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 2: possible economic interests, and so now our Supreme Court and 340 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 2: judicial nomination process is overtly political, and that's a sad. 341 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 3: Thing, you know. It would be nice to believe that. 342 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 2: We can hope for a situation where politics don't matter 343 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: and decision making. Roberts may be trying to maintain that 344 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: fiction a little bit. I respect also the firebrands on 345 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: the Court who are saying, no, I have my vision 346 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 2: of how to read the Constitution. I agree with that 347 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: vision myself personally, and I'm not going to compromise. I'm 348 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 2: glad I'm not in a position of powered I have 349 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 2: to decide between those two philosophies. I'm sort of on 350 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 2: the outside taking my potshots. 351 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: I mean, you did have so one of the most 352 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: famous examples of believing firmly on your side with being 353 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: able to be friendly the whole process by which Justice 354 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: Scalia was able to consistently have personal relationships with people 355 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,719 Speaker 1: with whom he had profound and unbridgable differences. 356 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 2: And that is so admirable. And I've experienced that in 357 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 2: my own life. Speaker Gingrich with the generational change, I 358 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 2: clerked for a very very left wing judge on the 359 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 2: Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in California, Stephen Reinhardt. He 360 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: was viewed as probably the most left wing judge in 361 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 2: the country. He viewed it as a badge of honor 362 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 2: that he was so routinely reversed at the Supreme Court level. 363 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 2: And he publicly called me the clerk who went bad, 364 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: because when I worked for him, I was liberal by default. 365 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: I was not a raging liberal, but unwittingly, unthinkingly absorbed 366 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 2: all of the assumptions of elite coastal culture. And then 367 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: as I started doing empirical work on the grounds, doing 368 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: street reporting in the Giuliana years as mayor in New 369 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 2: York City and actually looking first hand at the products 370 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: of the Great Society, I became a conservative through the 371 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: hard facts of seeing the consequences, not through any pre 372 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 2: existing theoretical position. So rein Hart knew that I had 373 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: gone to the right, and I was the only one 374 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 2: that he lost. But we used to meet at Union 375 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 2: Station in downtown Los Angeles for lunch. I would take 376 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: the train up from Irvine, California. He would come from 377 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 2: three point twelve North Spring Street. We would have lunch 378 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 2: at Tracks and he would needle me with a twinkle 379 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 2: in his eye about my right Wingerrie, and he would 380 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 2: make his usual defense about why we need lots of racial, ongoing, inevitable, 381 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 2: indefinite racial preferences for blacks, because he was a classic 382 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: Jewish liberal that felt a paternalistic responsibility towards blacks. 383 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 3: And every time we saw. 384 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: Each other, huge hug, and it was just a tragedy 385 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: when he died. I contrast that to a professor I 386 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: had at the Stanford Law School, a criminal law professor. 387 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 2: We bonded when I was there over the fact that 388 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: we both came out of a literary background. He had 389 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 2: taught literature. I aspired to be a literature professor, and 390 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: he was a mentor of mine. He was the one 391 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 2: that actually got me my clerkship with Reinhart when I 392 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: started writing. At one point he sent me an email 393 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 2: after I'd written I have to say a magnum opus 394 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: on rebutting the charge that the criminal justice system is racist. 395 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 2: He wrote me an email comparing me to Rush Limba, 396 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: which for him could not be a bigger insult. Guarden, 397 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 2: of course, is a badge of honor, but this was 398 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 2: the worst thing he could say to put me down 399 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: I then proposed that we would have lunch. I was 400 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 2: speaking in Palo Alto. I said, well, why don't we 401 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: have lunch. I did not hear from him for weeks, 402 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: if not several months, and I sent another prodding email 403 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 2: and he finally said, I really don't know what we 404 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 2: would say to each other. He was so petty, so 405 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 2: narrow minded, that he would not even sit down with 406 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 2: me to have lunch. I couldn't care less. It's not 407 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 2: as if I took this personally, but he's basically my generation. 408 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: This just shows the change of atmosphere that is coming 409 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: from the left that they so demonized any voice on 410 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 2: the right that they're not even willing to break bread 411 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: with that person. 412 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: The rise of Trump has made it even more intense, 413 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: with families that have a hard time getting together for 414 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving because they are so deeply split in that sense. 415 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: I think you're sort of seeing a pressure cooker building 416 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: because the difference in the two directions is so extraordinary. Now. 417 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: We saw some of this in the late sixties early seventies, 418 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: and Pearl White wrote about it and is making the 419 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: President series. People forget we had twenty five hundred bombings 420 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: in the late sixties, and we had the Black Panthers 421 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,479 Speaker 1: openly campaigning to assassinate police, and we had a million 422 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: people march on the Pentagon. I mean, we went through 423 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: a wave that then ultimately crested and sort of disappeared 424 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: into the universities where metastasized. We've been here before. You'd 425 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: mentioned in passing about Giuliani, and one of the things 426 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by. I had a very good friend who's 427 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: I think, very open minded liberal, who had written that 428 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: we really need to figure out how we could dramatically 429 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: reduce the crime rate and the violence and all that. 430 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: And I wrote him in back and I said, you know, 431 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: this is not a theoretical issue that between julian A, 432 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: Chief Bratton and Bloomberg, New York crime dropped so radically 433 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: that by the end of Bloomberg's second term, Staten Island 434 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: was the safest six hundred thousand person city. You took 435 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: it as a city, it was the safest city in 436 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: the United States by an enormous margin, and the rest 437 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: of New York was remarkably safe. But it involves a 438 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: series of policies which the left hates so much that 439 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: they prefer carjackings and killings and muggings and what have you. 440 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: And it just strikes me that this unwillingness to learn 441 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: from reality because ideologically the things that work are precisely 442 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: what the left is opposed to. It is a significant 443 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: part of our current problem. 444 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 3: Well, you could not be more right. 445 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: We have completely effaced the miracle of New York City 446 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: bringing crime down, homicides down from their high of twenty. 447 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 3: Two hundred and forty five a year. 448 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 2: Whoever is really good at math can do the per 449 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 2: day homicides that we were experiencing down to about three 450 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 2: hundred homicides a year. Nobody within the criminal justice system 451 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: saw this coming. In fact, the FBI and its uniform 452 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 2: crime reports would publish an annual disclaimer saying, well, of 453 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 2: course we know that the police cannot do really anything 454 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 2: about crime. This is a social problem that will not 455 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 2: be solved until we solve racism and poverty and income inequality. Well, 456 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 2: Brat improved that wrong. The police can solve this by 457 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 2: enforcing the law. It's the same with the vagrancy problem. 458 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 2: It is absolutely a policy made and made problem that 459 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: results from refusing to handle street vagrancy the way generations 460 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 2: handled it in the past, which is to say, sorry, 461 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: you are not allowed to colonize public spaces period. Move along, 462 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: and especially today when we have endless services housing available, 463 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: there is no excuse for allowing anybody to sit down 464 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: on that sidewalk, to defecate, to shoot up, to make 465 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 2: that sidewalk his own. He should be moved along. But 466 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: I would add one thing new. You engaged in the 467 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 2: typical conservative swerve from what really is the problem with 468 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: our law enforcement system today, and you have graciously left 469 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: out the real key factor, which is race. It is 470 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: not enough conservatives on Fox News and the New York 471 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: Post go around. You know, I can tell you this, 472 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 2: if conservatives stop caring about black lives, nobody will. Conservatives 473 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 2: are the only ones that talk about the crime increase, 474 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 2: the only ones who talk about the blacks who are 475 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 2: taken by these insane drive by shootings. But what they 476 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: will not say is the reason for this bizarre situation 477 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 2: in American law enforcement today where you have prosecutors across 478 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 2: the country refusing to prosecute essential laws that are essential 479 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: to public order, whether it's trespassed, turnstile jumping, disorderly conduct, 480 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: resisting arrest, low level gun crimes, low level drug crimes. 481 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: They're saying, Nope, we don't want to see these crimes 482 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 2: in our courtroom. We're not going to do anything about it. 483 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: Police chiefs are saying, I don't want to do traffic stops. 484 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 2: The only reason that these laws are not being enforced 485 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 2: is because they have a disparate impact on blacks. 486 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 3: That's it. If they did not have a. 487 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 2: Disparate impact on blacks, we would be enforcing the hell 488 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: out of them. We would be saying, I'm going to 489 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 2: row these criminals in jail and throw away the key. 490 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 3: But because they have. 491 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: A disparate impact on blacks, we have decided we would 492 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: rather not enforce the law at all than enforce it 493 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 2: and put more black criminals in prison. And so that's 494 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 2: where we are today. And unless we can say without 495 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: apology that enforcing the law is not racist, that these 496 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 2: laws are colorblind, they are constitutional, the police are not racist. 497 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 2: The problem is the underlying behavior, not the laws, we 498 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 2: are not going to get our streets back. 499 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: The only variation I would make on that analysis is 500 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: I think we have to start by the human cost 501 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: in the black community. If you took the crime rate 502 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: when Bloomberg left, you could literally calculate how many African 503 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: Americans in New York have been either killed, beaten up, 504 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: or had their car stolen or whatever because of the 505 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: failure to enforce the law. And you could actually make 506 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: it a pro black safety issue, but that would require 507 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: fighting your way through all the people whose entire investment 508 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: is on the other side. And I would say that 509 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: one of the great failures, whether talk about conservatives or 510 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: anybody who wants to have an open conversation about getting 511 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: to a system that will work, should start with the 512 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: human cost of not getting there. How many five year 513 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: olds and under are killed and drive by shootings by 514 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: people who already had a record and shouldn't have been 515 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: on the street. 516 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: Of course, you're right, with all due respect, people like 517 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 2: myself have been making that argument for decades. I mean, 518 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 2: I've done that calculation. You can say in New York 519 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 2: City alone, one city alone, tens of thousands of minority 520 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 2: males were not killed who would have been killed had 521 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 2: homicide rates remained at their nineteen nineties level. I speak 522 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 2: all the time about the black toddlers who have been 523 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: gunned down in their beds and their front yards at 524 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,240 Speaker 2: birthday parties, in their parents' car at public parks, gunned down, 525 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 2: either killed immediately, made brain dead, paralyzed for life. I 526 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 2: have said, why don't we say their names? We say 527 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: the names of the thugs, George Floyd, Michael Brown, Daunte Wright. 528 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 2: Nobody is saying the names of Jocelyn Adams, for example, 529 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 2: the eleven year old girl who was gunned down in 530 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: her father gang banging car while they were sitting at McDonald's. 531 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 2: There are dozens, dozens of these black children, and nobody 532 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 2: cares about them. That the Black Lives Matter activists don't 533 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 2: give a damn about black victims until their lives are 534 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 2: taken by a cop. So, with all due respect, note 535 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 2: this is not a new strategy, and it is one 536 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: that conservatives have tried. They do harp on the black victims, 537 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 2: and it doesn't work, And so I would say at 538 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 2: some point one needs to expand the discourse and actually 539 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 2: confront the lie head on. 540 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 1: Why do you think it doesn't work? What is it 541 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 1: you think that happens in the mind of the listener 542 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: that enables them to just shrug it off. 543 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 3: I think the commitment to. 544 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 2: Black victimology that presupposes that the oppressor is white, not 545 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 2: a black criminal, because the real Black victims today are 546 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 2: those who are killed. Let's just give a sense of 547 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 2: the scope of black victimization nude, if I can throw 548 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 2: some numbers out here. After the George Floyd race riots, 549 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 2: black juveniles seventeen and younger were shot at a rate 550 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 2: one hundred times that of white juveniles one hundred times. 551 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 2: Blacks between the ages of ten and twenty four are 552 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 2: killed in gun homicide at twenty five times the rate 553 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 2: of whites. They are being shot and killed exclusively, virtually 554 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 2: exclusively by other blacks, not by the police, and not 555 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: by whites. So it is an astronomical rate of victimization 556 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 2: by street violence compared to anything that the rest of 557 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 2: the population experiences. But we don't want to talk about 558 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: that because we are terrified of inner city black cultural 559 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 2: pathology and we're terrified that it might not go away. 560 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: And if you talk about black victims and you're honest, 561 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 2: you will have to say that the people that are 562 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 2: killing them are other blacks, black criminals, and nobody wants 563 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 2: to confront that. 564 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: That may require a huge fight. 565 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,240 Speaker 2: It will absolutely will, and it's going to take people 566 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: saying I'm not scared that you're going to call me 567 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 2: a racist, I don't give a damn. My fealty is 568 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 2: towards the truth. It is not towards your politically correct 569 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 2: promides that are destroying American cities, that are destroying American education. 570 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 2: I do not care what you call me, Heather. 571 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: I really want to thank you for joining me and say, 572 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: right up front, we're going to schedule sometime in the 573 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: not too distant future a follow on conversation specifically focused 574 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: on crime and the human cost of our current policies. 575 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: But at the present time, your new book, When Race 576 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,400 Speaker 1: Trump's Merit is very timely fascinating. We're going to have 577 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: it on our show page and encourage all of our 578 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: listeners to get a copy of your book and tell 579 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: their friends about it. I'm very grateful you'd spend this 580 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: kind of time talking with me. 581 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 2: It's been a great conversation. Thank you so much for 582 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 2: your wisdom and for your probing questions. It's been absolutely 583 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 2: stretching my own mind. 584 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:07,479 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. 585 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Heather MacDonald. You can get 586 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: a link to buy her new book, When Race Trump's 587 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: Merit on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld 588 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: is produced by Gingrish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 589 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: producer is Guarnsey Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 590 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 591 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,400 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingrish three sixty. If 592 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 593 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 594 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 595 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 596 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at gingrishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 597 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.