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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discuss the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Ella m Hoff has fired back

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Speaker 1: on JD Vance's accusations about Kamala being a child less

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Speaker 1: cat lady. We have such a great show for you today.

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Speaker 1: Sky Perryman, president of Democracy Forward, stops by to talk

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Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five. Then we'll talk to North Carolina

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Speaker 1: State Supreme Court Justice Alison Riggs about her critical race

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Speaker 1: in a potential swing state. But first, we have the

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Speaker 1: hosts of the weekend Saturdays and Sundays at eight am

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Speaker 1: on MSNBC, Simone Sanders and Michael Steele. As well. MSNBC

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Speaker 1: will host MSNBC Live Democracy twenty twenty four, an inaugural

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Speaker 1: audience focused event featuring more than a dozen of the

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Speaker 1: most well known MSNBC hosts and more. The day long

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Speaker 1: event will take place on Saturday, September seventh at bam

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn Academy of Music. Tickets are on sale at msnbc

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Speaker 1: dot com. Backslash Democracy twenty twenty four. Welcome to Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townson.

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Speaker 2: Yy Hey, hey, hey, hey, let's go on, Molly.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to have you both because I really like

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Speaker 1: both of you and think you're both hilarious. More importantly

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Speaker 1: and very very smart. But she has been the candidate

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Speaker 1: for four days.

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Speaker 3: It's crazy. But you know, man, Michael thought about this.

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Speaker 3: I think that this is a legitimate honeymoon period. And

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Speaker 3: if this is the honeymoon period, Hai, right away, there

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Speaker 3: is going to be a turn that happens.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, this has been a remarkable four days.

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Speaker 3: And frankly, it is a testament to it wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: gone like this and the vice by and the president

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Speaker 3: not have had the good governing relationship, the good working relationship,

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Speaker 3: the actual friendship, because Joe Biden could have thought, I'm

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Speaker 3: getting out of this race and he ain't said nothing else,

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Speaker 3: but he said, I'm getting out of this race.

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Speaker 4: And also it's her.

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Speaker 3: And she has been one of the most loyal defenders

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Speaker 3: to the president throughout this entire process and also just

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Speaker 3: continuing to prosecute the case against Trump while everything was

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Speaker 3: unfolding over the last month. So this seamless transition, if

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Speaker 3: you will, is a testament to a lot of work

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Speaker 3: that happened up until this point.

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Speaker 2: It's also a testament to overcoming what I consider to

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Speaker 2: be incredibly politically stupid play by Democrats who allowed this

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Speaker 2: to even get to the point that it did. The

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Speaker 2: reality for a lot of folks was the writing here,

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Speaker 2: Molly in large measure has been.

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Speaker 5: On the wall for a while.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that, and again it goes to something

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Speaker 2: that I don't even think Democrats really appreciate about the

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Speaker 2: man they had in front of them in Joe Biden,

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Speaker 2: is that he, to the most point fixed this. And

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Speaker 2: because as she just said, it could have been a

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Speaker 2: lot more difficult, in fact worse if he just said, Hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going anywhere period. I am the current president

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Speaker 2: and I will remain such until January twentieth next year.

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Speaker 2: If I'm not re elected or b I'm standing down,

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Speaker 2: y'all have fun.

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Speaker 5: See you on the other side. And he didn't.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that he didn't speaks volumes about how

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Speaker 2: he cares about the outcome and recognizes the historic moment,

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Speaker 2: not in terms of elevating someone like the vice president,

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Speaker 2: but the historic moment for the country as we're about

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Speaker 2: to move into our two hundred and fiftieth year in

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Speaker 2: a couple of years, to know that we could be

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Speaker 2: at that hour in authoritarian state, that we could have

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Speaker 2: sitting in the White House, someone with unfettered power given

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Speaker 2: to him by an unchained Supreme Court. And I think

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Speaker 2: that a lot of folks lose sight of the found

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Speaker 2: importance that I think history is going to reflect Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden is to this moment and the role that he's

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Speaker 2: played to keeping the ship of state steady. So simone's

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Speaker 2: real important political point. This honeymoon is great, and all

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Speaker 2: the stars are in the eyes and the love is

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Speaker 2: in the air and everybody's holding.

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Speaker 5: The hands, And that's not how this is going to finish. Necessarily.

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Speaker 2: You're going to have a lot of hard work ahead

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Speaker 2: of you because the folks on my side are prepared,

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Speaker 2: as we've already seen, to play not just the misogyny card,

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Speaker 2: but the race card. And it's going to be a

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Speaker 2: very very challenging race that it's going to be less

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Speaker 2: about issues and more about Trump doing the maga thing

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Speaker 2: with the poison that they want to spread.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, But I'm wondering when we talk about

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Speaker 1: what Biden has done here with the Vice president, which

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Speaker 1: I think is really meaningful and important, is that the

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Speaker 1: people I've talked to in the campaign, because people in

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Speaker 1: the White House don't want to violate Hatch all say

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Speaker 1: that the message from Biden was if you love me,

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Speaker 1: make her president.

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Speaker 4: And I am not surprised.

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Speaker 3: Let's just back up and remember, you know, Joe Biden,

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Speaker 3: I remember doing the whole running made search, if you will,

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Speaker 3: doing twenty twenty because I worked on the Biden campaign

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Speaker 3: then I was the advisor to the then candidate Biden,

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Speaker 3: and there are all these people pontificating and speculating about

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Speaker 3: what he was going to do, who he was going

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Speaker 3: to pick. He himself made the commitment that he was

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Speaker 3: going to select a woman as his running mate, but

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Speaker 3: which woman was the question. And when he settled on

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Speaker 3: then Senator Harris now Vice President Harris, one of the

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Speaker 3: things he said after the fact was the most important

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Speaker 3: thing to me is someone that.

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Speaker 4: Is ready on day one.

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Speaker 3: And Joe Biden has never wavered from that. And on

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Speaker 3: top of that, they have a good relationship and they

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Speaker 3: like each other. When he called into the Wilmington champaign

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Speaker 3: headquarters meeting, I guess it was earlier this week, and

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Speaker 3: then the Vice President was speaking and she's like, we

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Speaker 3: just love the bide we love Joe and Jill, and

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Speaker 3: he's like, well, I love you too, kid, I'm watching you.

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Speaker 3: First of all, someone let people know the president is

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Speaker 3: still on the line. But that's quitnes with Joe Biden. Okay,

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Speaker 3: just jumping in and saying I love you, kid. Like

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden really loves her. He loves his country, but

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Speaker 3: he loves her. And I think he appreciates just the

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Speaker 3: kind of vice president that he has been to her,

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Speaker 3: to him because he knows the job. He himself did

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Speaker 3: it for Barack Obama for eight years. Joe Biden is

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Speaker 3: a good person. And because he's a good person, He's

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Speaker 3: a smart politician, but a good person that values people

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Speaker 3: in relationship. Of course, he made the case he could

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Speaker 3: just say, oh, it's her and then not do any

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Speaker 3: work on her behalf, but he is going to him.

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Speaker 3: He himself said do the work because he really wants

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Speaker 3: it to be her. And Donald Trumps was on the

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Speaker 3: other side of this. Okay, Authoritarianism is real. Dictator on

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Speaker 3: day one is real. This is not a game.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a very very important part of all

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Speaker 2: of this for Joe Biden is understanding not just the

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Speaker 2: historic moment of having someone like Kama ready on day one,

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Speaker 2: but also understanding the importance to the country of having

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Speaker 2: someone like her ready on day one, and why the

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Speaker 2: threat coming from the other side is real and important.

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Speaker 2: Would Joe Biden like at this point to be seven

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Speaker 2: years eight years younger, Yeah, would you know things be

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Speaker 2: different if age had not caught up with him even

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Speaker 2: at eighty one. Absolutely. We know a lot of folks

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Speaker 2: in their eighties who are are very much you know,

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Speaker 2: still yeah, still doing their thing exactly. But that's a

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Speaker 2: very hard realization to come to in politics. We've all seen,

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Speaker 2: and I know Simone has worked with as I have

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Speaker 2: over the years, the politician who just doesn't know when

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Speaker 2: the light has gone out and they're the only one

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Speaker 2: standing on the stage because everyone's left the room, right,

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Speaker 2: They're still reliving a period that's long gone. And the

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Speaker 2: hardest thing for Joe was coming to that truth, I think,

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Speaker 2: and part of that process over the last four weeks,

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Speaker 2: what I was saying to some of the Democrats that

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Speaker 2: I know was, if you know anything about this man,

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Speaker 2: give him the space to do this on his terms,

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Speaker 2: because the more you try to browbeat him out the

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Speaker 2: door that irish in him stands up, it becomes harder

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Speaker 2: for him to let go. And I think they finally

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Speaker 2: caught that at the end and let him figure out

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Speaker 2: how he wanted to have this conversation with the country.

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Speaker 2: And I think what we witnessed in his address to

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Speaker 2: the nation from the Old Office was Joe Biden's recognition

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Speaker 2: on his terms and having that conversation with the country

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Speaker 2: on his terms.

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Speaker 5: And so I appreciate the man for that.

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Speaker 2: You know, he, for me affirmed all the reasons why

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Speaker 2: I did what I did in twenty twenty by not

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Speaker 2: only saying I was voting for Joe Biden, but publicly

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Speaker 2: endorsing him as the former chairman of the Republican National

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Speaker 2: Committee and as a Republican in this still to this day.

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Speaker 5: Saying I've voted for Joe Biden.

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Speaker 2: So in that Oval Office speech, policy, you know, differences aside,

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Speaker 2: all of that aside, he affirmed for me why I took.

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Speaker 5: That leap of faith in him. And I hope the

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Speaker 5: country saw that and heard that in that speech, why

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Speaker 5: they took that.

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Speaker 2: He honored that leap of faith that they took, you know,

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Speaker 2: with him in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Joe Biden demonstrated he's the many that cann be trusted.

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Speaker 3: People have been talking about the president as though he

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Speaker 3: is getting on a plane and flying away to his

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Speaker 3: beach house and never commits the man is bill president

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Speaker 3: until January twenty and twenty twenty five. He is just

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Speaker 3: no longer a candidate. And in his Oval Office address

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Speaker 3: when I also heard him say it, I am still

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Speaker 3: here and I still have work to do. And frankly,

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Speaker 3: there are additional commitments and promises that Joe Biden made

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Speaker 3: the American people that he has not yet made good on.

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Speaker 3: We should all hold him accountable on that because he

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Speaker 3: does still have again January twenty twenty five, until everything

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Speaker 3: is said and done. So I just, you know, I

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Speaker 3: just please people trying to bear Joe Biden a lot

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Speaker 3: of people.

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Speaker 4: I'm here.

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Speaker 3: I'm here, and I'll read the poll reports because you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm a nerd, and.

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Speaker 4: You know, he used to be my job to be like, oh,

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Speaker 4: what they put the poll report? Did they get that

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Speaker 4: in there?

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Speaker 3: They missed in the color so and reading the poor

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Speaker 3: reports yesterday from the day of the Oval Office address

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Speaker 3: from the folks who were traveling with the Vice president,

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Speaker 3: there was much made about Oh, she didn't stop to

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Speaker 3: speak on the tarmac. She didn't answer this out of

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Speaker 3: question the day of the oble office address that was

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Speaker 3: about Joe Biden, and so she shouldn't have been answering

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Speaker 3: questions and to check with the press on the tarmac.

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Speaker 3: But she knows that because again he has been in

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Speaker 3: there with Joe Biden for almost four years doing this work.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I've been really impressed with too,

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Speaker 1: is that to be the person who takes over, there's

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Speaker 1: sometimes there's a sense that that person was angling for it,

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Speaker 1: and you got none of that. You got none of that.

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Speaker 1: You saw that she was his staunchest ally and supporter

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Speaker 1: and so loyal to him, which I think is something

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Speaker 1: that voters will appreciate because we all have had elderly

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Speaker 1: parents and.

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Speaker 4: We trust black women, I like to say.

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Speaker 3: But also, let's just you know, right wing conservative media

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Speaker 3: has made this out to be that something is wrong

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Speaker 3: with Joe Biden, that the president is actually thick and

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Speaker 3: he's having a health care crisis and there's been a

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Speaker 3: cover up. And that is also why I think his

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Speaker 3: allal office address was important because it was him direct

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Speaker 3: to camera in prime time that all of the networks

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Speaker 3: took it so that people can see him for themselves,

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Speaker 3: and the right wing conservative media atta change. I won't

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Speaker 3: even say conservative because it is it's straight up right wing, okay,

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Speaker 3: and it's jam and it ain't even conservative anymore. It

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Speaker 3: hadn't been a sustained attack on both the president and

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Speaker 3: the vice president since before they even took office, and

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Speaker 3: so when the honeymoon period subsided a little bit for demic,

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Speaker 3: they don't need to they don't need to pop up

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Speaker 3: and pay attention. I don't think the people have been

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Speaker 3: working for the vice president and the vice president herself

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Speaker 3: are new to this phenomenon, because it's been something she's

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Speaker 3: been confronting for a while.

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Speaker 4: But to be very very clear.

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Speaker 3: I mean I've already I've been reading articles and I've

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Speaker 3: been listening to some analytical reporters who've been talking about

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Speaker 3: what they perceive as the vice president's policy and what

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Speaker 3: they perceive is how she has operated over the last

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Speaker 3: four years. And I was kind of like, Oh, somebody

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Speaker 3: need to frame these people up planning, because they all

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Speaker 3: got it right.

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Speaker 1: Are you guys surprised at how much the right has

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Speaker 1: been able to work the refs in the mainstream media

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Speaker 1: and how they've been able to sort of set the conversation.

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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking even back to that debate, where so

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Speaker 1: many of the convers so many of the questions had

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Speaker 1: a right wing framing that I don't even know that

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Speaker 1: the reporters, that the journalists even knew that they were

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Speaker 1: taking the right wing framing.

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Speaker 5: I'm not surprised by it.

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Speaker 2: I think there has been for quite some time now,

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Speaker 2: and I just wish the media is just honest about it.

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Speaker 5: To be honest.

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Speaker 2: You know New York Times that there's a symbiosis between

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Speaker 2: them and Donald Trump, that they feed off of each other.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump, little reported but definitely noted by me and

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Speaker 2: others when he finally left Washington and twenty twenty one noted,

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Speaker 2: You're going to miss me because you need me as

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Speaker 2: much as I need you.

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Speaker 5: And that was a very honest assessment.

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Speaker 2: Between Trump and the fake news that he loved so much,

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Speaker 2: the fake news that he fed and gave access to

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Speaker 2: and lulled them into thinking that they had some type

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Speaker 2: of special connection and arrangement that nobody else did. And

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Speaker 2: we've seen books written as a consequence of that relationship,

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Speaker 2: and I think it has in many respects sort of

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Speaker 2: lered some of the reporting that we've not just some,

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Speaker 2: but an important part of the report that we've seen.

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Speaker 2: To your point, Molly, about how these things are framed,

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Speaker 2: the fact that after that debate, Yes, everybody saw what

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Speaker 2: we saw her when we heard god awful debate by

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden, got it.

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Speaker 5: But did you know that there was someone else on

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Speaker 5: the stage too, and yet that was not covered that

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Speaker 5: the fact that the former president was standing there a

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Speaker 5: line from the very first moment he opened his mouth

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Speaker 5: and reaffirming and layering up again narratives that we all

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Speaker 5: know were debunked and were not true. The election was

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Speaker 5: not stolen.

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Speaker 2: You were charged and convicted because you committed crimes, not

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Speaker 2: because of anything the Biden Justice Department. Did your dance

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Speaker 2: with the law begained before there was a Biden administration.

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Speaker 2: In fact, a lot of it occurred under your own

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Speaker 2: Justice department. Those points weren't pushed back. Even if Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden didn't have the capacity in those moments to fact

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Speaker 2: check Donald Trump, you would have thought that the moderators would,

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Speaker 2: or at least narratively after the fact, that that would

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Speaker 2: be part of the storyline. So yeah, there's some real

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Speaker 2: issues in my view that still linger and exist here

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Speaker 2: with the way Trump is covered. And it wasn't until honestly,

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Speaker 2: just a browbeating by the public after the debate that

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Speaker 2: you know, you had out some institutional newspapers and online

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Speaker 2: services actually start reporting on the other half of that debate.

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Speaker 2: It's an ongoing concern and you know it's going to

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Speaker 2: be important to sort of watch it. But because I

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Speaker 2: think the media is in love as much with Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump as he is with them.

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Speaker 1: Bold statement, but I think very true. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: to us just for a minute, Simone and then Michael

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Speaker 1: about what it looks like coming out of that convention.

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Speaker 1: Did the Republicans just completely squad under a four days

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Speaker 1: a mainstream media. It strains me that they have, and

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Speaker 1: it delights me.

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Speaker 4: Well, well did they?

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Speaker 3: I mean, let's just be honest, Okay, going into that

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Speaker 3: convention after a you know, a very real assassination attempt

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Speaker 3: against the former president on in life, they were riding

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Speaker 3: high with the media narrative. Everyone was being very judicious

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Speaker 3: and deferential. I feel like, and I do mean when

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Speaker 3: I say everyone, I'm panning with broad strug brush on purpose.

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Speaker 3: Most people except not the weekend, honey, But weren't we

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Speaker 3: weren't even on TV that Sunday.

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Speaker 4: So you deal with that what you will and love

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Speaker 4: what is it that convention? Everybody's talking about this.

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Speaker 3: He told Donald Trump was gonna have nothing to back

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Speaker 3: up that there was going to be a new tone.

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Speaker 4: Nothing.

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Speaker 3: He selects JD. Vans and they're like, yes, the tone

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Speaker 3: is changing again. Where are the facts and the evidence?

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Speaker 3: Where are the receipt you know, as I harken back

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Speaker 3: to the real haz wide of Salt Lake City, you know,

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Speaker 3: timeline receipt and where the evidence? Honey, There was no

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Speaker 3: evidence that's for any of this myth. It was just

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Speaker 3: you know what people in Donald Trump's or what we're saying.

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Speaker 3: He wouldn't even talk to any actual reporter. It's not

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Speaker 3: like he made himself available, right, But all of a

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Speaker 3: sudden he calling up the Washington Examiner and his favorite,

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Speaker 3: you know, right wing outlet. So I would just think

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Speaker 3: that they did benefit from the median narrative. Everyone played

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Speaker 3: all their things, you know, Eric Trump was making the rounds,

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Speaker 3: do any softball interviews.

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Speaker 4: It was insane.

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Speaker 3: And then Thursday night came and Donald Trump got up

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Speaker 3: on that stage. And for fifteen minutes told us a

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Speaker 3: story recounted his version that he said he would never

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Speaker 3: tell again, but I have since heard it multiple times

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Speaker 3: about the assassination attempt. And then boom turned to George

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Speaker 3: trunk Rally the switch flip, and everybody was like, oh my,

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Speaker 3: oh my goodness, oh my goodness, this did Donald tarm

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Speaker 3: he ate ames when y'all don't figure it out.

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Speaker 4: Michael Thoughts simone nailed it.

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Speaker 2: I always marveled that it goes back to the point

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Speaker 2: I was just making. You had folks in the media

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Speaker 2: pushing this bs that Donald Trump was going to change.

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Speaker 2: Oh after the assassination. You know, he looked so serene

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Speaker 2: sitting there in the hall, and it looks you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, would you guys stop smoking whatever they're selling

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Speaker 2: you please? Do you know who you're talking about? You're

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Speaker 2: being punked. This is all part of the reality TV

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Speaker 2: programming that he has done from the very beginning. There

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Speaker 2: is nothing about Donald Trump that has changed. And in fact,

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Speaker 2: on our airs, and I think it was during Katie

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Speaker 2: Tur's hour, there was someone who had a conversation with

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump that Sunday after the shooting, and they asked

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Speaker 2: him what's different about Trump? And and and he went

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Speaker 2: only said, well, I asked Trump, you know that this

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Speaker 2: changed the way you look at things? You know, did

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Speaker 2: you have that moment where you realize your you know,

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Speaker 2: your life flashes before your eyes? And it basically said,

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Speaker 2: Trump was like, no, why would there be any other

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Speaker 2: answer from a narcissist, Why would there be any other

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Speaker 2: answer from a megalomaniac. Why would you expect him to

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Speaker 2: be introspective?

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Speaker 5: They're not. That's it's just not.

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Speaker 2: A tool that they have in their box and their

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Speaker 2: you know, makeup of who they are, because no, I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is who I am, So I expect to survive

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Speaker 2: these things, this whole thing about you know, showing images

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Speaker 2: of Donald trumple in his needs, the sort of AI

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Speaker 2: generated images of Donald Trump on his knees saying a prayer.

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Speaker 5: This is the man who held the Bible upside down

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Speaker 5: for God's sake.

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Speaker 3: Come on, it'stop that well hold selling his own Bible

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Speaker 3: and will though, what'sn't that it.

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Speaker 2: Made his own Bible, so you know, tells you what

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Speaker 2: he thinks about God.

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Speaker 4: All right, I love you both.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate you both. I think this is so important.

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Speaker 1: Also everyone should watch the weekend because you guys are amazing,

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Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 4: Yes, thank you.

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Speaker 3: We appreciate when you come on watch the weekend, and

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Speaker 3: they should buy our ticket. Yeah, not to the weekend, yes,

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Speaker 3: right now, that's free for today, for today, for now, okay,

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Speaker 3: but we are all getting together on September seventh for

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Speaker 3: an MSNBC live event all about democracy Unpacking twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: four obviously has gotten crazy. Who knows what is going

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Speaker 3: to be by September seven, but Michael and I will

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Speaker 3: be there, Alisia will be there. All your favorites from MSNBC, Lawrence, Rachel, Joy,

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Speaker 3: Focking here, everybody, everybody, Alex, everybody will be there. So

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Speaker 3: I'll get your tickets on Summer seventh in Parson in

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Speaker 3: New York. I think it's in Brooklyn actually, so join us.

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Speaker 1: Thanks you, guys, thank you, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 5: Molly.

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Speaker 1: Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five and how

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Speaker 1: awful Trump's second term could be? Well, so are we,

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Speaker 1: which is why we teamed with iHeart to make a

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Speaker 1: limited series with the experts on what a disaster Project

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five would be for America's future. Right now.

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Speaker 1: The first four episodes, with the final episode coming next week,

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Speaker 1: are available by looking up Molly John Fast Project twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five on YouTube. If you are thinking you are

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Speaker 1: more of a podcast person and not a YouTuber, you

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00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 1: can hit play when you get to the video, put

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Speaker 1: the phone on lockscreen and it will play back. New

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Speaker 1: episodes are dropping in the next week as well. We

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Speaker 1: need to educate America on what Trump's second term would

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Speaker 1: do to this country. Please watch and help us spread

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Speaker 1: the word. Sky Perriman is the president of Democracy Forward.

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Speaker 1: Welcome too, Fast Politics.

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Speaker 4: Sky Well. It's good to be here.

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Speaker 1: So I want to talk to you about all the

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Speaker 1: sort of legal stuff that you guys are working on

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Speaker 1: or whatever you can talk about. First, tell us about

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Speaker 1: your organization.

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Speaker 4: Great well. Democracy Forward is an organization. We work across

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Speaker 4: the country. We're an organization of lawyers, and we also

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Speaker 4: have policy folks and communicators because sometimes lawyers have to

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Speaker 4: have people help them communicate. As we know, and we

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Speaker 4: we were started in the wake of the twenty sixteen

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Speaker 4: election when it became clear that we were in an

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Speaker 4: unfortunate new era of American life where the fight for

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Speaker 4: democracy was not just about whether we were going to

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Speaker 4: be able to push forward and tour to more inclusive society,

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Speaker 4: but was actually whether we were going to be able

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Speaker 4: to hang on to some of the hard fought gains

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Speaker 4: given what we saw in the first months of the

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Speaker 4: last Trump administration. And so our team got together. We

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Speaker 4: went many of us for lawyers in corporate practice or

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Speaker 4: in senior government roles, and we came together to bring

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Speaker 4: cases on behalf of people and communities throughout the country

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Speaker 4: that were being harmed by unlawful and harmful policies in

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Speaker 4: the Trump era. We've evolved our mission. We do a

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Speaker 4: lot more than that now. What we learned was that

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Speaker 4: the maga extreme trump Ism that we saw in the

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Speaker 4: last administration wasn't really just about one person, but it

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Speaker 4: was also about a highly coordinated, highly funded network of

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Speaker 4: extreme legal organizations that for many years and even decades,

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Speaker 4: have been working to seek to move our country backwards,

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Speaker 4: to take away their right to abortion, to take to

441
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 4: make it harder for people to vote, to make it

442
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 4: harder for people to thrive. And so over the past

443
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 4: few years we've been expanding our work in order to

444
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 4: counter that extremism and to really represent in courts and

445
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 4: in communities throughout the country. What we know the vast

446
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 4: majority of people in this country want, which is a

447
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 4: society where all of us can be included and where

448
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 4: we can all thrive.

449
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 1: There's a lot of steps that keeps me up at night,

450
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 1: But the newest thing that keeps me up in a

451
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: night in American democracy is the ways in which the

452
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: right is trying to make it harder for people to

453
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: vote in this election cycle and the weird legal challenges

454
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: they're making about certifying elections. Can you talk to us

455
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: about that and is there anything that can be done?

456
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 4: Look, I mean, this is when you're a part of

457
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 4: an extreme movement that doesn't represent the majority of people,

458
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 4: and certainly doesn't represent the vast majority of people, which

459
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 4: is what the far right in America is. It's a

460
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 4: very small sort of percentage of the population. You have

461
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 4: to do things to move your agenda forward, which is

462
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 4: why they resort to anti democratic behaviors, to election denihalism,

463
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 4: to intimidation, to seeking to deprive people from hope. We

464
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 4: know that these efforts are unlawful. The Supreme Court has

465
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 4: said that with respect and rejected some of the basis

466
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 4: legal theories. Courts across the country are constantly ruling in

467
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 4: favor of voting rights, although there have been major setbacks

468
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 4: because of that same far right legal movement. And so

469
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 4: I think that we want to just encourage folks to vote,

470
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 4: but also to have a plan. And then we know

471
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 4: that there are so many lawyers and advocates that will

472
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 4: bring in order to protect our democracy. So like we

473
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 4: work on like all kinds of issues, we don't typically

474
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 4: do direct voting stuff.

475
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: Tell us about some of the stuff you guys do.

476
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 4: One of the things that's incredibly concerning is that we

477
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 4: see extremism that maybe people a few years ago thought

478
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 4: was research for one person or a particular moment in time.

479
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 4: We're seeing that see in communities across the country. Our

480
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 4: team is on the front lines in places like Arkansas

481
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 4: having to sue and by the way, we have won

482
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 4: so far to keep librarians from being penalized with criminal

483
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 4: penalties as a result of laws, very extreme laws that

484
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 4: have been passed that Governor of Sarah Huckabee Sanders has signed.

485
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 4: We are in court in Alabama having to challenge censorship efforts.

486
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 4: We've had to go to court in Ohio to try

487
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 4: to keep the public education system from being taken over

488
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 4: by the governor's office against sort of elected the elected

489
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 4: state Board of Education. And so I think like one

490
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 4: of the things that is important for people to understand

491
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 4: in this moment is that the fight for democracy is

492
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 4: certainly about the right to vote and the fight for voting,

493
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 4: but it is about so much more than that. I

494
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 4: think Dobbs showed that to people. I mean, we are

495
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 4: in communities across the country seeking having to represent doctors

496
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 4: who just want to provide emergency abortion care to their

497
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 4: patients and are being prevented from doing that because of

498
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 4: far right ags and because of this coalition of far

499
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 4: right organizations, the same ones that are behind Project twenty

500
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 4: twenty five, which is getting good attention thanks to you

501
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 4: and many others, but they're behind so many efforts. And

502
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 4: so I really think this is a moment and what

503
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 4: we see in our work where people have to decide

504
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 4: what they are going to do in this moment for

505
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 4: our country and for our democracy. And there is work

506
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 4: we all need to do to just reject extremism as

507
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 4: it appears in our everyday lives.

508
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what that extremism looks like. In

509
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: the court. So I did a big thing. I talked

510
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: to Dave Atgers about his book being banned and in

511
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: South Dakota. What was interesting about that story was it

512
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 1: was this sort of astro turf protest, right like, the

513
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: people of South Dakota don't want these books removed. It's

514
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 1: this website, it's this group that is a sort of

515
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 1: offshoot of Moms for Liberty. So legally, what are you

516
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: seeing that's like that?

517
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 4: Well, look, we've seen that actually even in the pandemic.

518
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 4: Let me just start with that, because it's the censorship

519
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 4: efforts that you're seeing across the country, this extremism. We

520
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 4: thought even in the pandemic, with communities where there were

521
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,719
Speaker 4: all of a sudden uprisings over people needing, you know,

522
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 4: over children wearing masks in school, are making schools safe

523
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 4: against COVID nineteen, And what we started finding we represented

524
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 4: pediatricians in a lot of these cases, and what we

525
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 4: started finding was that these were not sort of organic

526
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 4: movements that were happening across the country. They were, as

527
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 4: you just said, these seated movements where special intrist organizations

528
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 4: would burrow in a community and seek to polarize people.

529
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 4: We see that right now with city ordinances in states

530
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 4: like Texas and New Mexico and Ohio and Nebraska, where

531
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 4: lawyers and kind of right wing legal and other political

532
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 4: figures like Jonathan Mitchell. He's the lawyer that was behind

533
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 4: SB eight, the aiding and a betting law on abortion

534
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 4: in Texas. He he represented, you know, he was at

535
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,959
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court this last term. And you know, what

536
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,239
Speaker 4: we see is like all of a sudden, communities are

537
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 4: starting to consider city ordinances that are incredibly streamed that

538
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 4: ban abortion or even ban people from helping their neighbors.

539
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 4: And we started looking at though we requested public records,

540
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 4: what we saw was a paper trail in all of

541
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 4: these communities with these common actors, right, people that are

542
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 4: not from the community, that come into these towns and

543
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 4: try to polarize people in order to push an agenda.

544
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 4: And so, I mean, we do see that. You see

545
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 4: it in the censorship space, We certainly see it in

546
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 4: the abortion space. We know we've seen it in the

547
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 4: voting space. And I think that one of the things

548
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 4: that's significant about this is when we look at our

549
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 4: overall democracy. You and I talked about this, you know,

550
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 4: I think when we saw each other, but in twenty

551
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 4: twenty one, the United States was added to the list

552
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 4: of global backsliding democracies. And I just want to say that,

553
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 4: and hopefully, you know, lots of people don't realize that,

554
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 4: but in twenty twenty one, after January sixth, the United

555
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 4: States was put on a list of global backsliding democracies.

556
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 4: And what we know about democracies that are in backslide

557
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: are that there are these efforts to polarize people. People

558
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 4: are not actually as polarized as you know, we are

559
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 4: led to believe, but there are you know, far right

560
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 4: efforts in this country and these political efforts to make.

561
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: Them seem more polarized exactly.

562
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 4: And the question is why would you do that, Well,

563
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 4: if you represent a vision and a view for the

564
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 4: country that only a small minority of people believe in,

565
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 4: because you're against everybody that makes up the country. You know,

566
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 4: you don't like immigrants, you don't like people of color,

567
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 4: you don't like women, you don't like librarians, you don't

568
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 4: like teachers, you think the media is out to get you,

569
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 4: I mean whatever, you know, vilification of the American identity

570
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 4: in many ways, that these are the extreme actors in body.

571
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 4: You have to convince people that they're polarized because how

572
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 4: are you going to try to get more power than

573
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 4: you really should have? And so that's what that's what

574
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 4: we're seeing it. It's really concerning. I followed your work

575
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 4: and conversations with folks about it, and what we want

576
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 4: people to do is to understand that, like in this moment,

577
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 4: we all have a voice, and that's what we do

578
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 4: every day as we represent people in courts and in community.

579
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 4: It's making sure that people are making their voices heard,

580
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 4: that they you know, this extremism is not what it

581
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 4: means to be an American and it's not in line

582
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 4: with the vast majority of what the American people believe, right.

583
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: I Mean, that's the thing that is so strinking, is

584
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: none of this is what people want, right. The majority

585
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: doesn't want to not be able to vote. They don't

586
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: want to not be able to get books in the library,

587
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: and they don't want to not be able to have healthcare.

588
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: Tell me about some of the sort of weirder legal

589
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: challenges that we are, Like, I mean, I'm sure that

590
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: the things you're seeing the most of our abortion and

591
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: but just give me some of the sort of weirder stuff.

592
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 4: Well, there's been a really significant and pretty cataclysmic trend,

593
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 4: and some of it reached the Supreme Court this term

594
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 4: where we have a lot of these far right legal

595
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 4: organizations or more right leaning legal actors really seeking to

596
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 4: undermine the way our government can deliver for people. So

597
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 4: in this last term, as one example, the Supreme Court,

598
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 4: at the invitation of the right wing legal movement, issued

599
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,959
Speaker 4: a number of decisions that undermine the way the federal

600
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 4: government can do basic things. Why keep our air and

601
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 4: water while you stay right?

602
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: There are like two enormous decisions I think that the

603
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: Supreme Court made this semester. They both came on July first,

604
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: because why wouldn't they. One was the Chevron doctor and

605
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: can you talk about that? And then the other one

606
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: is that you know, the president can do whatever he

607
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: wants and crimes are not crimes if the president doesn't

608
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: but talk to us about Chevron.

609
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 4: Well, I really want to talk about to both of

610
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 4: those same times.

611
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 5: So let me.

612
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 4: I'll start with what you're calling the Chevron decision, and

613
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 4: that is what it is for your listeners who haven't

614
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 4: been keeping as up with things, although I know most

615
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 4: of your listeners do. Chevron deferences is about the gas station,

616
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 4: but that was years ago. But this legal principle that

617
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 4: lawyers talk about, which is that when Congress passes a law,

618
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 4: so Congress passes the law, they use pretty broad language.

619
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 4: Sometimes their language isn't that clear. Sometimes that's intentional, other

620
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 4: times it's just Augress is not an expert in everything

621
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 4: that it's legislating, and it's trying its best. But when

622
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 4: they use language that's not particularly clear, that's the ambiguous.

623
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 4: When the federal agencies, so federal agencies are in our

624
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 4: executive branch and in our system of government, right like

625
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 4: Congress passes the law and in the executive branch, these

626
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 4: federal agencies that are at the heads are appointed by

627
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 4: the president, have to go implement those laws and execute

628
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 4: those laws. Those agencies traditionally had been afforded a level

629
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 4: of deference from a case Chevron versus EPA, which is

630
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 4: why it's called Chevron deference, and had been afforded a

631
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 4: level of deference in the way they interpret various statements

632
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 4: or words that Congress have said in legislation. We are

633
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 4: about particular subject matter. So one example, you know, the

634
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 4: Clean Water Act has had a number of sort of

635
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 4: broad sweeping pronouncements but experts on how you have clean

636
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 4: water and clean air have to interpret that in order

637
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 4: to make sure that we have all the programs that

638
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 4: can make sure that our error and water quality is

639
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 4: adequate and safe for the American people.

640
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 5: Right.

641
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 4: And so that's been a doctrine for more than for

642
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 4: forty years, and even before that, courts were, you know,

643
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 4: generally applying those principles. So it goes back even before that.

644
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 4: And there has been an effort by the conservative legal

645
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 4: movement and the far right legal movement to underline that

646
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 4: doctrine in recent years. It's interesting because this was actually

647
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 4: a doctrine that Justice and Right and other conservatives used

648
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 4: to like.

649
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: They liked it because they had Republican administrators and liberal judges, right,

650
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: I mean, they liked it because it was going in

651
00:34:58,560 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: their favor.

652
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 4: Correct. And what we've learned actually is that the application

653
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 4: of Chevron deference has actually for many years helped depoliticize

654
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 4: or there was evidence filed with the Court breast Off

655
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 4: with the Court that studied cases said that in cases

656
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 4: where liberal judges would look at more conservative policies or

657
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 4: where conservative judges would look at more liberal policies under

658
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 4: Chevron deference, often the courts would uphold the policies unless

659
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 4: they were unlawful and out of line. And by the way,

660
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 4: anybody thinks that like Chevron deference was giving agencies way

661
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 4: too much authority, it's just not at of what I

662
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 4: pursued agency my whole career and have won even when

663
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 4: Chevron Deference was at play. So if an agency does

664
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 4: something that is arbitrary, capricious, or unlawful, it can't do that.

665
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 4: So sort of the nuts and bolts of it is

666
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 4: this charm the Supreme Court overturned that doctrine and what

667
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 4: it has done essentially replaced seeking to replace the expertise

668
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 4: of our civil servants and folks that are at these agents,

669
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 4: these implementing policies across the board in highly regulated areas

670
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 4: with just the whins of whatever a district court judge

671
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 4: might do. So let's think about something like mifapristo right

672
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 4: edication abortion, where you have extremists that file the suit

673
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 4: with a judge that they wanted to file a suit

674
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 4: in front of and Amarillo, Texas. There are different principles

675
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 4: at play in that case, but you can imagine a

676
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 4: scenario where this happens in an agency challenge, and because

677
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 4: Chevron deference has been overturned, it becomes easier for sort

678
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 4: of extremist organizations to get judges to interpret the law

679
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 4: in ways that is more ideological, and so that's a

680
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 4: real concern. And so there are massive implications a democracy forward.

681
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: We represented two hundred and fifty thousand small businesses in

682
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 4: these cases talking to and explain to the court and

683
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 4: briefs about how this is actually bad for business. Not

684
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 4: having predictability in your regulatory system is actually not a

685
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 4: good thing for most business.

686
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: Well, all of this is bad for business. This is

687
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: all like short term sugar rush tax cuts, but it's

688
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: ultimately going to undermine American markets, American credibility, you know,

689
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: et cetera, one hundred.

690
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 4: Percent in these cases. And so we think that the

691
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 4: implications should be are going to be quite large. Just

692
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 4: in the last three weeks since the Court decided the

693
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 4: Lope or Right case, which is the case where they

694
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 4: overturn Chevron defference, our team has been tracking every case,

695
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 4: all the litigation across the country where parties are referencing

696
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 4: that decision, and there's already more than forty cases where

697
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 4: people are trying to use that decision to undermine let's say,

698
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 4: like title line civil rights protections or worker protections or

699
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 4: environmental protections. And so we definitely think it's a quite

700
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 4: devastating decision. But the really interesting thing about what happened

701
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 4: this term, Mollie, is if you think about this decision,

702
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 4: this overturning of Chevron deference, right, the invitation of the

703
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 4: conservative legal movement, the notion that the executive branch has

704
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 4: so much power and federal agencies have too much power,

705
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 4: and so we have to curtail their power by replacing

706
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 4: their power with individual judges. Wait a second, what the

707
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 4: executive branch has too much power? What happened in the

708
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 4: immunity decision?

709
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 3: Right?

710
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: Exactly? Not like that?

711
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 6: Right.

712
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 4: So it's like the Supreme Court wants to curtail executive

713
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 4: power and presidential power when the executive is implementing laws

714
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 4: on behalf of people and doing things to help the

715
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 4: government deliver for people, whether that's in the healthcare context

716
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 4: or the labor contact, or the environmental context. And yet

717
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 4: when you have a former president that has committed a

718
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 4: number of crimes, including those related to his responsibilities as presidents,

719
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 4: they're willing to sort of impose a new legal structure

720
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 4: that is akin to making a president a king. So

721
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 4: it's really quite remarkable when we think about the these

722
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 4: two cases colliding in the same term and really looking

723
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 4: at sort of what the court has done and who

724
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 4: it benefits and who it hurts.

725
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: It feels like this is a little bit like Raheemi

726
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: with the gun case, Like they make these broad, broad

727
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: decisions that are ideologically not necessarily coherent, and then they

728
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: can't for example, like Bruin, which was this case that

729
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: basically said New York State couldn't regulate its own guns,

730
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: which you know, again, this is like a group that

731
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: pretends to love states rights, but the Texas can regulate abortion, right.

732
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: And then you go on to Raheini, which was this

733
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: seasoned blockbuster can people who do domestic violence have guns?

734
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: And they're like, whoa, I mean, they put themselves in

735
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 1: these positions right exactly.

736
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 4: And it's the same or Eason on the abortion cases

737
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 4: that like it's an election year, so they sort of

738
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 4: tampered their decisions in some way that all of these cases,

739
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 4: whether it's medication abortion or emergency abortion care come back

740
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 4: to the court.

741
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: Right, and if they can get their guy in there,

742
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: they're going to do crazy stuff. Thank you, Thank you, Sky.

743
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: I hope you'll come back.

744
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 4: Well, thank you, Mollie. I'd want to come back anytime.

745
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 1: Justice Alison Riggs is running for reelection in the North

746
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: Carolina Supreme Court. Welcome to fast politics, Justice.

747
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 4: Riggs, thank you for having me.

748
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: Tell us what you do and why it is wildly important.

749
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 6: I am the newest justice on the North Carolina Supreme Court.

750
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 6: I am running to keep my seat and running to

751
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 6: flip the court, to change control of the court to

752
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 6: people who share our values, who have a commitment to

753
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 6: the Constitution, to reproductive freedom, who understand that democracy doesn't

754
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 6: defend itself in a post Roe v. Wade world, and

755
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 6: with many of the recent decisions we've seen from the

756
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 6: US Supreme Court, state supreme courts really are the battlefront

757
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 6: for so many any of the issues that we care about,

758
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 6: then we need to put up a fight to protect

759
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 6: our rights at the state level.

760
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: North Carolina is a state that I greedily feel could

761
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 1: be a swing state. Also is a state where there

762
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: are no various Republican forces trying to cheat when they

763
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: can't win. So explain to us what the sort of

764
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: state legislature looks like and what, you know, the sort

765
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: of stuff you've had to kind of push back against.

766
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, So, I mean we're a complicated state. A Democratic

767
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 6: presidential candidate hasn't won North Carolina since President Obama and

768
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 6: then Senator Obama one in.

769
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 4: Two thousand and eight.

770
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 6: But we have regularly elected democratic governors and Democratic attorneys general.

771
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 6: We have had Democratic majorities on our state Supreme Court.

772
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 6: So North Carolinians are vote splitters. They are folks who

773
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 6: care a lot about the specific candidates and ultimately what

774
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 6: has sort of historically happened in North Carolina, and we

775
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 6: weren't the only state that this happened in. In the

776
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 6: twenty ten elections, really critical elections years that end in zero,

777
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 6: because that's when we take our federal census and state

778
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 6: legislatures and congressional districts. State legislative districts and congressional districts

779
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 6: always get drawn right after a federal census. Participation in

780
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 6: the twenty ten election here in North Carolina was sort

781
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 6: of off the mark, and Republicans took control of the legislature.

782
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 6: I was a voting rights attorney at the time, so

783
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 6: I litigated when they took control of the legislature. In

784
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 6: twenty ten, they redrew political districts to elect members of

785
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 6: Congress and members of the state legislature that favored Republicans

786
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 6: and cemented in one election results in a way that

787
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 6: was really resistant to change the changing will of voters.

788
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 6: So we have seen a real durable jerrymander in North Carolina.

789
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 6: And you know what that means is is that voters

790
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 6: have a hard time having their voices heard and rebuking

791
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 6: or holding accountable politicians who don't respect the will of

792
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,720
Speaker 6: the voters. So you know, when I was a voting

793
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 6: rights attorney before I joined the bench, we saw a

794
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 6: gerrymander of congressional districts that was so durable that it

795
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 6: would have taken a way of election greater than what

796
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 6: we saw a post Watergate to even out the playing field.

797
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 6: And for your reference, I wasn't alive then, neither was I.

798
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 4: Neither was Jesse.

799
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: Luckily for us, this is one of the few things

800
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: that's older than we are.

801
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 6: Yes, So in all of our lifetimes that kind of

802
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 6: election has not happened, right, So very very troubling, anti democratic,

803
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 6: and you see that show up in the policies regarding

804
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 6: public schools, gun safety. You know, it's so critical that

805
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 6: we have when we elect by districts, that we use

806
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 6: districts not that favor one party or the other right,

807
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 6: but that represent right and let voters hold people accountable.

808
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 6: Like that's at the end of the day, that's it, voters.

809
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 6: If you have a functioning democracy, voters can vote you

810
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 6: out if you are, you know, hurting their schools or

811
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 6: making their kids more unsafe, or making their communities more unsafe.

812
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 6: And so things that are resistant to that kind of

813
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 6: accountability are troubling to me. I'm running on the Supreme Court.

814
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 6: I obviously bring to bear my wealth of experience in

815
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 6: voting rights and a career spent defending the Constitution. But

816
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 6: I'm also trying to run a campaign where people understand

817
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 6: what state Supreme Court justices do and they understand their

818
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 6: power to hold us accountable, because there's I've heard a

819
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 6: lot of frustration with folks who don't like what's happening

820
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 6: at the US Supreme Court in Washington, d c. Right

821
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 6: and feel very defeated that there's nothing that they can

822
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 6: do about it, that that court is how it is

823
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 6: until people either die or choose to retire right, there's

824
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 6: here in North Carolina. If you don't like what your

825
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 6: state Supreme Court is doing, if you are bothered that

826
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 6: the state Supreme Court is taking away rights rather than

827
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 6: protecting rights, you can vote us out right.

828
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's a really, really, really good point,

829
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: and really important is that this is a question of accountability.

830
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 1: So explain to us, please, what's happening in North Carolina

831
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: now and what that looks like, and what are you

832
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: seeing on the ground, and do you see a base

833
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: that's energized, like, just talk to us about that.

834
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 6: I assure you, this is an exciting time to be

835
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 6: living in North Carolina and doing political work. Last year

836
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 6: we elected the youngest state party chair of the Democratic

837
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 6: Party ever, a young woman named Anderson Clayton, who was

838
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 6: at the time twenty five years old, and he brought

839
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 6: to bear the vimen vigor that we needed. We needed

840
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 6: to believe that this was a fight we could win.

841
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 6: We needed to all get get better about talking about

842
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 6: the North Carolina that's worth fighting for. It's not necessarily

843
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 6: the North Carolina that we've seen predominantly for the last

844
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 6: fourteen years, but there is a North Carolina that is

845
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 6: a progressive beacon in the South. That is a state

846
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 6: where women who need reproductive health care can come if

847
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 6: they need to. That's a North Carolina worth fighting for.

848
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 6: A North Carolina that values its rural voters in the

849
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 6: Mountain just as much as it's farmers and industrial workers

850
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 6: in the black belt in eastern North Carolina. Those voices

851
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,760
Speaker 6: matter just as much as the folks in major metropolitan

852
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 6: areas like Raleigh and Charlotte. So we have, I think

853
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 6: a nude vision of what we are fighting for. We've

854
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 6: got an incredible slate of statewide candidates running, a lot

855
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 6: of great women, the first black woman to ever serve

856
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 6: on this Council of State, I'm the youngest woman to

857
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 6: ever serve on the North Carolina Supreme Court. And after

858
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 6: the news that we are likely to have Vice President

859
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 6: Kamala Harris at the top of the ticket, there was

860
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 6: energy before that. It is through the roof now and

861
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 6: we are willing to knock on every single door to

862
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 6: be that dream swing state. But we actually think that's

863
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 6: us Like, we are a state that's changing rapidly, that

864
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 6: is politically important nationally, and we recognize that with that

865
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 6: comes the need that we need to do a lot

866
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 6: of on the groundwork, and.

867
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 4: North Carolinians are ready to do it.

868
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: What I think is so interesting about your state is,

869
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 1: you know, you have the research triangle, you have academia,

870
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: you have a lot of different parts to the state.

871
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: Can you sort of talk to me about how the

872
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: vice president could win your state?

873
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, So, you know, I got involved in politics for

874
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 6: the first time at the end of twenty twenty two

875
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 6: when I was appointed first to the Court of Appeals.

876
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 4: It was before I was even appointed to the Supreme Court.

877
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 6: And typical politics advice was, well, there are eleven we

878
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 6: have one hundred counties in North Carolina. The advice, a

879
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 6: lot of the advice I heard, was well, if you're

880
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,879
Speaker 6: going to run statewide as a Democrat, there's really only

881
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 6: eleven counties that matter. And so these are where Greensboro

882
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 6: and Raleigh and Charlotte are, and so that leaves out

883
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 6: eighty nine in heavily black eastern North Carolina, in a

884
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 6: lot of the places in central North Carolina where the

885
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 6: textile industries have really collapsed. In western North Carolina. I mean,

886
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 6: I am I grew up in West Virginia. I am

887
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 6: the daughter of Appalachia, and I know what jd. Vance

888
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 6: is selling.

889
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: Right.

890
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 6: It isn't the hillbilly experience hillbilly's and I embrace that

891
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 6: term for myself and I know my western North Carolinian

892
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 6: friends do as well. We help each other. What the

893
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 6: Vice President can offer is I think folks in North

894
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 6: Carolina that have been left out, that are feeling unseen.

895
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 6: I mean, I think she's been to the state seven

896
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 6: times already, Like so she's already doing it this year.

897
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 6: I mean this year, before all everything got shook up,

898
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 6: she's been doing it being North Carolinians to feel really empowered, engaged,

899
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 6: I think just need to feel seen like we matter,

900
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 6: that these You're not worthless if you live in a

901
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 6: red county but share our values. We want to fight

902
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 6: for your vote and represent you. No.

903
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: And I think that what I'm struck by is if

904
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 1: you're not going to primarily black county, is that's because

905
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: that vote is disenfranchised, right, I mean that they're having

906
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: a trouble getting to vote. And I mean if you

907
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: look at the South, there are majority minority states that

908
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: are represented by a horrible Republican white you know, I'm

909
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: thinking of Mississippi as a great example. You know, the

910
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: Senator there was photographed in a Confederate uniform, and that's

911
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: a majority minority state. So there is a question of

912
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: disenfranchisement that needs to be dealt with.

913
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 4: Right Yeah.

914
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 6: I've been involved in cases litigating under the Voting Rights

915
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 6: Act for my entire career. We lost a key part

916
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 6: of the fact Section five of that Act in twenty

917
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 6: thirteen when the US Supreme Court issued its ruling in

918
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 6: Shelby County Beholder. And since twenty thirteen, it's sort of

919
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 6: been more recently in the last couple of years that

920
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 6: the political science data has confirmed that absence the protections

921
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 6: of Section five, voting discrimination laws that create burdens, particularly

922
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 6: on voters of color, to participate in the political process

923
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 6: have increased and voter turnout rates have decreased. So there

924
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 6: continues to be a making the rules of who participates

925
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 6: in elections political rather than open and inclusive. It has

926
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 6: a discriminatory and disenfranchising effect. We've seen it across the

927
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 6: South since twenty thirteen. And an additional angle to understand

928
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 6: is that when voting becomes harder, when folks sort of

929
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 6: get out of the habit because it's become more and

930
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 6: more challenging and more and more burdensome. I think there's

931
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 6: an apathy that comes along with it that's like, okay, well,

932
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 6: turnout in these sort of more rural counties maybe you

933
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 6: know in Texas it's LATINX counties. In eastern North Carolina

934
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 6: it's predominantly black counties, Like the turnout is down, and

935
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 6: so the typical political incentives are like, well, there's no

936
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 6: point in going there because there's just not that many

937
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 6: people that are going to vote, and so it just

938
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 6: feeds into the harm creating by disenfranchisement. If we if

939
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 6: we look at that data and say, turnout isn't the

940
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 6: ultimate question, because we have to ask ourselves, you know,

941
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 6: what's been standing in the way of people participating, And

942
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 6: we have to keep showing up as statewide candidates, as

943
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 6: national candidates telling voters that your voice does matter, we

944
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,760
Speaker 6: do want to hear from you. We're going to work

945
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 6: for your vote and show you that we care and

946
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 6: we're listening and we're here to serve you. And I

947
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 6: think that ends up giving people the oaths they need,

948
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 6: the technical term, the only thing to fight back against legislatures,

949
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 6: particularly in the South, that are not passing voting laws

950
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 6: in their best interest and so like, this isn't necessarily

951
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 6: like my day job. Now, this is what I did

952
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 6: for fifteen years before joining the bench, and so I

953
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 6: understand it. And so that's the background I'm bringing to

954
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 6: this campaign is understanding that folks in North Carolina have

955
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 6: sperienced setbacks when it comes to expanding our democracy and

956
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 6: making it easier and more inclusive to vote and to

957
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 6: having every voice matter equally.

958
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 4: So, you know, we have to have that baseline understanding.

959
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: I think that's really important. So what are the things

960
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: in the North Carolina Senate that are coming up for

961
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: you that are why.

962
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 4: You should be re elected?

963
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: You're appointed, but re elected.

964
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 6: Right, right, So the North Carolina Supreme Court right now

965
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 6: we have partisan judicial seats and races because the Republican

966
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 6: legislature decided to make them part of of course, so

967
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 6: we have five Republicans and two Democrats on our state

968
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 6: Supreme Court. The state Supreme Court now is a place

969
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 6: with increasingly more power under the state constitution because the

970
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 6: Federal Supreme Court has sort of quote unquote sent reproductive

971
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 6: justices back to the states. Right Sending them back to

972
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 6: the seats means that we're going to see down the road.

973
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 6: What we've seen in Arizona and Alabama and Florida and Texas.

974
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 6: A review of laws that criminalize miscarriage treatment, a review

975
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 6: of laws that are six week abortion bans, review of

976
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 6: laws about whether life begins at conception, such that women

977
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 6: in the middle of IDF treatments might have their treatments

978
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 6: halted and their ability to start their families into because

979
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 6: of activist judges. And so this is the fight of

980
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,720
Speaker 6: a lifetime. It's not just reproductive freedom. It's about taking

981
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,919
Speaker 6: back our court before the next round of regular redistricting,

982
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 6: putting on the bench people who will enforce the constitution,

983
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 6: who believe in a democracy where people can vote out

984
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 6: politicians who don't serve their interests. We make decisions about

985
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 6: our environment. When Democrats controlled the Supreme Court, they issued

986
00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 6: rulings that said homeowners' associations couldn't entirely ban soul panels.

987
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 6: And when big energy spilled toxins in our rivers and lakes,

988
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 6: they couldn't pass the cost of cleanup entirely off on

989
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 6: the consumers. You know, these are the issues that there

990
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 6: isn't a topic. I mean, we don't deal with immigration law,

991
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 6: we don't deal with bankruptcy. But other than that, there's

992
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 6: very little that doesn't land on the desk of North

993
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 6: Carolina Supreme Court justices. And the question now is can

994
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 6: North Carolinian voters recognize and take a hold of the

995
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 6: power that they have to make sure that all branches

996
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 6: of government, including the judiciary, work for the people, not

997
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 6: against them.

998
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: Can you explain to us what's happening with your governor

999
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: because you had a normal Democratic governor he's term limited

1000
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: out Roy Cooper, and now you have a governor's race

1001
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: and it's pretty wild, So can you talk to us

1002
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 1: about that.

1003
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 6: Our Attorney General, Josh Stein is a Democrat running to

1004
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 6: become governor. He is running against the Republican Lieutenant Governor

1005
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 6: Mark Robinson, who says the most hateful, most inflammatory things.

1006
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 6: And I think you know that race is it's stark

1007
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,439
Speaker 6: in terms of seeing you know a man like Josh

1008
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 6: Stein who's been a public servant his entire life and

1009
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 6: who cares about North Carolinians and he's thoughtful compared to

1010
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 6: someone who talks about women not being fit to lead.

1011
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 6: And the only reason you might need abortion care is

1012
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 6: if you couldn't keep your skirt down right, Like things he.

1013
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: Just he also doesn't think women should vote or the

1014
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: nineteenth Amendment.

1015
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 6: He would like to go back to a time before

1016
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 6: that that was the good old days.

1017
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 4: There's a lot of problems with that.

1018
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 6: But but what your listeners could understand though that would

1019
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 6: it would help us, is to spread the word that

1020
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 6: extremism is on our ballot here in North Carolina, from

1021
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 6: the top of the ticket all the way down. It's

1022
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 6: not just the governor's race. It's very important, but it's

1023
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 6: not just so we have the you know, the presidential

1024
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 6: race where extremism is a peak on the Republican ticket.

1025
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 6: But we have folks like Michelle Morrow running for public

1026
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 6: instruction superintendent who never sent our kids to public school

1027
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 6: and talks about public schools as being in doctrination centers.

1028
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 6: We have my opponent who's running for the Supreme Court,

1029
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 6: who signed on to an opinion since withdrawn that said

1030
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 6: life begins at conception. That's the same extreme legal position

1031
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 6: that the Alabama Supreme Court that caused IVF and fertility

1032
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 6: treatment centers to shut down and women who were in

1033
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 6: mid treatment couldn't finish, and women lost access to the

1034
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 6: healthcare they needed to build their families. Safely and in peace.

1035
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 6: So it is up and down the ballot we are facing,

1036
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 6: you know, a real Everyone always says this is the

1037
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 6: most important election of your life cycle.

1038
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: Like, I get it, one really is.

1039
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 4: But that song is pretty existential.

1040
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really really important and a good point.

1041
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: So thank you so much, Justice Riggs. Tell us what

1042
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 1: people can do to support you.

1043
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 6: So I would really love for folks to visit my website.

1044
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 6: It is www dot rigs for our Courts dot com.

1045
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 4: It's for as f O R.

1046
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 6: I'm on Instagram, Facebook, x TikTok with donation links. You

1047
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 6: can look me up on at blue you know, follow

1048
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 6: me on social media.

1049
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 4: Make a contribution.

1050
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 6: Five ten dollars is game changing in a state support race.

1051
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 6: Let me tell you, those grassroots donors are going to

1052
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 6: help me get out the word about what I stand

1053
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 6: for and the fact that women in North Carolina I have,

1054
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 6: the women and their allies have the chance to take

1055
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 6: back control of our bodies. Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank.

1056
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 4: You so much. Great to join you there a moment,

1057
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 4: Jesse Caannon Young Fast.

1058
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: I have to say there's not many people who are

1059
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 2: more online than you and I, but man jd Vance.

1060
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 1: Well, so here's the thing. While Trump is trying to

1061
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: deny that he has anything to do with Project twenty

1062
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 1: twenty five, jd Vance, his vice presidential pick, wrote the

1063
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: introduction to the Heritage Foundation president Kevin Roberts book If

1064
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: that is not If that is not a coincidence, I

1065
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: don't know what is. Would also add the jd Vance

1066
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,919
Speaker 1: wrote the introduction to a book by a notorious far

1067
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: right bad.

1068
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 5: Actor, Pizzagates spreader Jack Pisopiek, and.

1069
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 1: The book is called Unhumans The Secret History of the

1070
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 1: Communist Revolution and How to Crush Them So Unhumans like,

1071
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: the idea is that people on the left are not human, which,

1072
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: as you know, to humanizing language is one of these

1073
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: scary signs of autocracy. And for that Jdmance, probably the

1074
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: first time, but certainly not the last time, is our

1075
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: moment of fuckery. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

1076
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the

1077
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos.

1078
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to

1079
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks

1080
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: for listening.