1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy P. 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. We talked about William marsh 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Rice and his death, which is often described as definitely 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: a murder, but what is I think the most authoritative 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: and thorough account of the crime and the trial and 7 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: all of that ends on and actually maybe maybe it 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: wasn't Maybe he was already dead when they gave him 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: the chloroform. Some of the things that are cited as 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: reasons why this whole chloroform story doesn't really add up. 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: There was the thing that we said in the episode, 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: which is that people would have been able to smell 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: the chloroform when they walked in the room, and nobody 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: reported it smelling like chloroform. Also, Charlie Jones described burning 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: the sponge and towel in the kitchen, but reform is 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: not flammable, so it would have hung around. Yeah, that 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: it's there's just some question marks. And one of the 18 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: points that's made in that book, which is the Death 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: of Old Man Rice, The True Story of Criminal Justice 20 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: in America by Martin L. Friedland, is uh that a 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: lot of the things that are still question marks today 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: around this whole case come from expert testimony that was 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: given at trial, and expert witnesses still operate very similarly 24 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: in courts today to the way that they did uh 25 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: in you know, the early twentieth century when this case 26 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: was still happening. Uh. So there are still instances when 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: expert witness testimony is later revealed to maybe not make 28 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: any sense um and has you know, possibly led people 29 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: to be unjustly incarcerated. Um. I know there's been so 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: much discussion of expert witness testimony related to things like 31 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: blood spatter patterns, um that later there's been like an, oh, 32 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: there's actually no scientific validity to all of this testimony 33 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: about the spatter patterns things like that. So this is 34 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: one of those things that even though I picked this 35 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: because it felt like kind of a kookie murder mystery 36 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: uh for October ish time, also has like relevance to 37 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: how court proceedings still happens today. I had a moment 38 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: related to none of that earlier on that that I 39 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: had such envy where William marsh Rice described his father 40 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: as a person who had a piece about him because 41 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: he believed in you know, Providence. I was like, huh, 42 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: what must that feel like? That sounds amazing you. There's 43 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: a pause when I I'm like, oh, it's my turn 44 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: to talk. But I had this, you know, mill a 45 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: second day dream of like, oh my gosh, peace in 46 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: my head? What is that? Wow? I also had a 47 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: thing that particularly struck me that's totally unrelated to either 48 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: of the things that you have just talked about, which 49 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: is that when William Marsha Rice was living, uh, you 50 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: could be the second richest person in all of Texas 51 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: for the low, low price of seven fifty thou dollars, right, Which, yeah, 52 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: that's that's not an amount of money that puts anybody 53 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: into the rank of the richest person in Texas at 54 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: all at all at this point. No, not not the 55 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: I mean the richest person of most places. Yeah, at 56 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: least in US currency. It's a weird thing. It's just 57 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,119 Speaker 1: a yeah. I mean there. I remember there being articles 58 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: several years ago about how being a millionaire wasn't really 59 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: a thing anymore, Like it was still a thing by 60 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: definite issue, but it wasn't it didn't have have the 61 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: same meaning that it had like in the nineteen seventies, 62 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: and I was just like, yeah, especially because there are 63 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: so many things that are like, if you want to retire, 64 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: you need at least a million dollars, and it's like, wow, 65 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: I guess we all work forever now. Yeah. It was 66 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 1: some months, some months ago at least, I don't remember 67 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: the exact time frame when when my friends started sending 68 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: me like little tidbits about this whole case. I put 69 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: it on the list City right away, and then I 70 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: decided to save it for more October time because in 71 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: that window before you actually start researching something and you 72 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: only have kind of the outline idea of what's happening, 73 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: I was like, this feels to me like it might 74 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: be kind of a on a spectrum of Halloween movies 75 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: that runs from like clue to rid, like something on 76 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: the clue end of the spectrum. And I'm not sure 77 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: if that's really how it where it wound up. But 78 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: in terms of a crime in which many, many many 79 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: articles include the part about the butler did it because 80 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: of his valet's involvement, it does have kind of a 81 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: goofy aspect that way, that and the ridiculousness of how 82 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: asked parts of life like this does not seem like 83 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: you all knew what you were doing in this crime 84 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: that you're trying to carry out. Now, I will say 85 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: I did also have a moment where I was like, 86 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: that's very smart, um, in the midst of plotting, which 87 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: was the when they were laying their paper trail and 88 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: they included real documents that had been signed by the 89 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: forger to kind of establish the forged signature as the 90 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: valid when that was genius. Yeah, that one moment. Everybody 91 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: has a moment. You know, a broken clock is right 92 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: twice a day. Um, that one moment was very very smart. 93 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's yes. And then they were dufaces. 94 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: I was not cheering for them to do it, but 95 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: I was impressed for a moment. Yeah. Um. I did 96 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: find some some write ups of this say that Rice 97 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: was actually working with Patrick as his lawyer officially, and 98 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: then I found other accounts that suggested that that was 99 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: not the case, and that that it was just that 100 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: Albert Patrick had had created this facade that he was 101 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: the real lawyer. Anyway, there's a lot that went on 102 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: and some question marks this. The book The Death of 103 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: Old Man Rice is like four pages longs I'm sure 104 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: there are things in it that did not absorb into 105 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: my psyche as I was doing the research. What you 106 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: didn't memorize your entire source list? I do. No, it's 107 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: possible to memorize entire sources every week. Yeah, my brain 108 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: would be more broken than it already seems to be sometimes. 109 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: So anyway, we talked about William Palmer and maybe some 110 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: serial killing this week. Um all was a super fun topic. 111 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: There were a few different things that I wanted to 112 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: mention in this behind the scenes one. In some write 113 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: ups you will read about his case, there are discussions 114 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: of a whole secondary situation where when he killed his wife, 115 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: he is believed to have had a mistress who may 116 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: have have had a child with him as well. That 117 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: was a little tricky for me to substantiate one way 118 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: or the other, so I left it out because it 119 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: also wasn't really completely germane since it really seemed to 120 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: be about money and not some sort of um you know, 121 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: I want to ditch my wife and be with this woman, 122 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: because that didn't seem to happen either. Uh. The other 123 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: thing that I kept throughout doing research on him, I 124 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: kept scratching my head over was the fact that he 125 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: was a doctor. And I kept thinking about that adage 126 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: that occasionally goes around where it's like, do you know 127 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: what you call the person who graduates last from his 128 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: medical school class a doctor? Because even people who scraped 129 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: by still get the title um. And he did seem 130 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: to not ever be very invested in his education or 131 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: his um his career in any sort of you know, 132 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: passionate way. He was a doctor. He seemed to know 133 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: some doctors, he seemed to exploit his friendships with some 134 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: other doctors. But the one question I always have, and 135 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: it it I don't know the answer to it, is that, um, 136 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: John Parsons Cook, if he did, as came up in 137 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: court testimony, say to his friends that first night that 138 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: he started to feel ill, I think Palmer is poisoning me? 139 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: Why did he keep hanging out with it? Yeah? I 140 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: also had some questions about that soup that appeared to 141 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: be making people ill but people kept eating it. What 142 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: was up with that? Very strange just foolishness. Yeah, I 143 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: don't are you that hungry? Like? Well, and in the 144 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: case of the chambermaid, it's always described as like the 145 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: soup had just been brought into the kitchen for storage, 146 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: and she was like, oh, this is so it smells 147 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: so good. I'm just gonna have a couple of spoonfuls. 148 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: And she just put a little bit in like a 149 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: saucer or something and had it and that was all 150 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: she had. But then she didn't think, Hey, I shouldn't 151 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: serve this, we should throw this out and not give 152 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: it to this sick man. Again, it's a little bit weird. 153 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: That also kind of gets into this very strange thing 154 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: that it's not strange, but it's evidence of a disturbing 155 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: thing that coupled along with the two chemists assistants who 156 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: were afraid of getting in trouble so they didn't record 157 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: the purchase of strict nine like that, and then this 158 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: chambermaid who let the soup go back to the sick 159 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: person that was staying at the hotel. It there's this 160 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: side of it where it feels like some versions of 161 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: it kind of implicate them and it's like, well, they 162 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: were stupid and they let this happen. And it's like, 163 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: these are people in very low level jobs who do 164 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: what they're told because they don't want to get in trouble, 165 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: right like in the case of the chemist's assistance. I'm 166 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: sure they were, like, well, a doctor came in and 167 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: he told me he needed strict nine and I sold 168 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: it to him. And I know he doesn't get along 169 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: with my boss, but he's a doctor, Like, yeah, I 170 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: got I found myself getting very angry on their behalfs 171 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: that people were questioning whether they should be held responsible 172 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: in some way, and I'm like no, because again, they're 173 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: just they're you know, young people who are just trying 174 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: to probably keep their lives together with their low paying jobs. 175 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: There is a funny story that there's never any explanation 176 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: given for this, but it does make me chuckle a 177 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: little bit. But it's often said that Palmer's last words 178 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: when he went up on the scaffold to be hung 179 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: were are you sure this damn thing is safe? What? Right? 180 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: And it's like what an odd thing to ask, Like 181 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: are you deluded? Do you think you're going to make 182 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: it out of this? I don't. It's a very strange, 183 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: and I didn't. I didn't include that because one it's 184 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: so weird, and two that's another one that's you know, 185 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: hard to substantiate. Tales get told yeah, yeah, And it's 186 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: not like that was ever part of like official court testimony, 187 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: because he had already been sentenced at that time. So 188 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: it's that one was a little bit weird. William Palmer 189 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: is a strange one. People love to hate him, but 190 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: there is a wave of people that do question. Obviously 191 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: mean Chase was based, as we said, entirely on circumstantial evidence, 192 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: which at the time past muster but certainly would not today. 193 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: And it is funny because all of the experts, like, 194 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: I mean, there were dozens of medical experts, like the 195 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: defense alone, I think called like fifteen or something, and 196 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: all of them were like, well, I mean, we don't 197 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: really know about strick nine and people exactly, but uh 198 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: and even Dr Taylor was like, I've never seen it, 199 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: but I did write a book about it. And it's like, 200 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: huh yeah, okay, all right, I don't I don't know. Um, 201 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: for all we know, he was just a person with terrible, 202 00:12:55,360 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: terrible luck around whom everybody seemed to die sort of strange. 203 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: But I don't know. I wasn't there. We don't have 204 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: good evidence, unfortunately, but hopefully, UM, everyone listening stays safe 205 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: from any harm of this nature death and does and 206 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: doesn't do any either. UM. And also doesn't accidentally get 207 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: embroiled in any such thing just because they have bad luck. 208 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: I hope not everybody have good luck. And since it 209 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: is a weekend, I hope you have a great weekend 210 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: free of all legal and poison problems, and that you 211 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: get some rest if this is a time in your 212 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: in your calendar when you normally have rest. Otherwise, if 213 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: you do have to go out and handle responsibilities, I 214 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: hope that those go as smoothly as possible, and that 215 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: everyone is kind to you and that you sail through 216 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: it to your time off as well as possible. We 217 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: will see you right back here tomorrow with a classic 218 00:13:54,000 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: and then on Monday, brand new episode. Stuff You Missed 219 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of I Heart Radio. 220 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the iHeart 221 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 222 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: favorite shows.