1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero i'm Akshatrati this week, produce profits and perfume. 2 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: Clean tech is a tough industry. Sure, if you invent 3 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: zero carbon tech that's both scalable and cheaper than the 4 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: fossil fuel alternative, you can make billions of dollars, but 5 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: many ambitious green companies struggle to turn a profit. Farming, 6 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: which has been around a whole lot longer than clean tech, 7 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: is also a notoriously hard business to make money from. 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: Vertical farming combines both of these things, and the entrepreneurs 9 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: behind it are attempting something extremely difficult, turning what has 10 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: been done forever on the X axis into something on 11 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: the y while also recreating natural conditions such as sunlight, rain, 12 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: and wind in a completely artificial environment. The tech for 13 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: modern day vertical farming was pioneered in the nineteen nineties, 14 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: and it has a big promise if it can be 15 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: successfully scale and that's a big if. It will use 16 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: vastly less land, less water, fewer pesticides and fertilizer. It 17 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: will cut down on shipping, It can be done in 18 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: the heart of cities, and on and on. The environment 19 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: would be perfectly controlled, meaning crops are less likely to 20 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: be affected by storms, droughts, floods, or disease that will 21 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: all become worse as we continue to warm the planet. 22 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: But all of this requires a huge amount of energy 23 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: to replace the sun and recreate what nature gives for free, 24 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: and because energy costs have gone up around the world, 25 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: it is increasingly hard for vertical farms to break even. 26 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: This year has seen several companies enter bankruptcy as they've 27 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: struggled to crack the vertical farming business model. Can you 28 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: do tubers, potato, carrots. 29 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: You can do anything, But do you really think there's 30 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: a finersial equation growing potatoes in or vertical farm. 31 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I don't know the economics of lettuce. 32 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: That is giald Dreyfus, the CEO of vertical farming company Jungle, 33 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: based in France, and you can hear he's kind of 34 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: outraged that I would even suggest growing such a low 35 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: value of food because he has to sell premium products 36 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: to turn a profit, and that is where the promise 37 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: of vertical farms falls short. Instead of growing bountiful indoor 38 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: fields of staple crops like wheat, they mostly produce aromatic 39 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: herbs or lettuce. Don't get me wrong, I like lettuce, 40 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: but it's not going to feed the world. I recently 41 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: had the opportunity to visit two different vertical farming startups, 42 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: Jungle in Paris and grow Grace in Singapore, and sat 43 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: down with the founders to learn about why their specific 44 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: way of farming is going to make it what they 45 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: grow instead of potatoes, and the biggest challenges for the 46 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: Indo Street going forward. 47 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 3: Come closer, Come closer. 48 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 2: We are in one of the six chambers that we 49 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 2: have here, and it's a separated climate control, so separated environment. 50 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: That's the voice of Jewel Drapfass again, stopping me getting 51 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: crushed by a giant tray of coriander plants descending from 52 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: high up above me. 53 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 2: There is six meters by seven, so forty two square 54 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: meter footprints with nine meters high, and on inchside you 55 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: have twenty six layers, so the net cultivation area is 56 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: close to four hundred square meter. 57 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: I'm with Zero's producer Oscar Boyd, a Jungle's vertical farm 58 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: on the outskirts of Paris. It's almost evening and we're 59 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: in the kind of dimly lit purple room that would 60 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: look good in a Drake music video. 61 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: So basically, it's the nighttime they're sleeping. 62 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: Do you sing to them lullabies? Of course, good music 63 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: and lisbon I played the saxophone. 64 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,839 Speaker 2: I was playing saxophone with the plants, and I tend 65 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 2: to believe that you had a real effect on them. 66 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: In the trees are rows and rows of tiny seedlings 67 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: of aromatic herbs like coriander, basil and Japanese shiso, all 68 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: controlled by a central computer system that is monitoring the 69 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,239 Speaker 1: room's climate. Outside the room, one of the agronomists pushes 70 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: a button and a nozzle floods a tree with water 71 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: and nutrients. Then only the size and how much water. 72 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: You use here in our system we use ninety eight 73 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: percent less water than in a traditional agriculture. We flood 74 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: each plant takes what it needs. We recuperate the water 75 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: so we don't lose anything. 76 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: From above, the growth of each of the plants is 77 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: closely monitored by infrared cameras to check that they're healthy 78 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: and to make sure that the maximum number of crops 79 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: can be harvested each year. 80 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: We can monitor everything that is going on. We know 81 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: from the consider that the two first leaves, how it's 82 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 2: gonna grow, and then the stem how big it is. 83 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: And from this infrared we know exactly if the plant 84 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: that we're talking about is growing in the right pattern. 85 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 2: And also we basically gather all these data together to 86 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 2: make all our cycle better and better. 87 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: This is one of many chambers at Jungle, some of 88 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: which we are allowed in, some of which are off 89 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: limits because of confidentiality agreements. In those chambers, Jungle is 90 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: growing plants to make perfumes for major brands. Each room 91 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: has a different climate to suit the conditions needed for 92 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: the plants growing there. There's also a bunch of warehouse 93 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: space and a dedicated room for germination, the beginning of. 94 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: The life of plant germination room. It's nice, huh should 95 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: we do the interview here? 96 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: It's all very high tech for farming, and it is 97 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: well beyond the pilot stage. There are real plants being 98 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: grown on a real vertical farm that are being sold 99 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: across Europe. But it has taken a long time, a 100 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: lot of effort and a lot of money for Jill 101 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: to get his company this far. As he told me 102 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: when we sat down after our tour of the farm, Jill, 103 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Thank you, let's hear the full 104 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: story of your company. When did you first think of 105 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,239 Speaker 1: creating a vertical farming startup? 106 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 2: So I was working in finance. I was in two 107 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 2: thousand and fifteen January. I was reading an article about 108 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: the food crisis and how we're going to feed the 109 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: world by two and fifty. This was a double page 110 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: in the Financial Times, and at the end of the 111 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 2: article there were three lines on vertical farming. 112 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 3: And I was like, I've never heard about this. It's fascinating. 113 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: So I started researching during nighttime, and then he took 114 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 2: over my work. I was obsessed. I went to meet 115 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 2: the father of the concept in New York very soon 116 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: after that, a guy called Dixon de Pomier is an 117 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: emeritus professor from Columbia University, and he took me with 118 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: him the following week to the first world conference on 119 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: the topic in Vegas. 120 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 3: So we're in twenty fifteen. 121 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: The place that has no water. 122 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and honestly, the people that were there and 123 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: what I heard made me felt like I was at 124 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: the right place at the right time for the first 125 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,679 Speaker 2: time in my life. So I came back to Paris, 126 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: quit my job and started to travel around the world 127 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: to try to understand what existed. I spent some time 128 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: in Japan, which is the beginning of commercial vertical farming. 129 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: I spent some time in Texas, which was the base 130 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: of the tech for vertical farming, because the LEDs that 131 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: were using in a control environment come from foty years 132 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: of research by NASA that wanted to grow some plants 133 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: in the ISS for astronauts in long missions. And I 134 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: spent obviously a lot of time in New York where 135 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 2: all the big operations started with arrow farms, Bowery farming. 136 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,239 Speaker 2: I also met my partner there, Nicholas, on the rooftop 137 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: farm by chance. I didn't know him, and we're the 138 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: two French people in this game, and intellectually it clicked 139 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: pretty rapidly, and basically this is how Jungle was born. 140 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: In March twenty sixteen. 141 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: Jill and Esteam initially began research and crops and vertical 142 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: farming methods in Portugal, but in twenty nineteen, with the 143 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: support of French supermarket Monopre, Jungle moved to its current location, 144 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: a four thousand square meter farm just outside Paris. In 145 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, it secured a fifty million dollar investment 146 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: to help fund its expansion. You spent three years figuring 147 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: out research and development for one hundred crops that you learn, 148 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: how to grow them in a controlled environment, what to 149 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: feed them. Now you're running a commercial operation. How many 150 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: of those hundred crops do you grow today? 151 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: So we have twelve commercial products out of those hundred, 152 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: and we have eight others that we are commercially active, 153 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: whether it's perfume or cross So commercial active on twenty crops. 154 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: That's okay. So when we think about vertical farming, because 155 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: of the way the plants are grown, where the environment 156 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: is controlled, there is no soil, there's only water and nutrients. 157 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: Does that mean there are certain types of crops that 158 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: can never be made in a vertical farm. 159 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 2: Economically, you can do whatever you want in a vertical farm. 160 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: It has to make financial sense. It all comes down 161 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: to that. So there's one thing you cannot do with 162 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: truffles because truffles grow in Sorry, but you can do mushrooms. 163 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: Can you do tubers, potato carrots? 164 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can do anything. 165 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: But do you really think there is a financial equation 166 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 2: growing potatoes in vertical farm? 167 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I don't know the economics of lettuce, 168 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: Is it financially viable growing lettuce? 169 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: And it is basically so is financial viable? What does 170 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 3: that mean? 171 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: All the companies in vertical farming started and are very 172 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: much focused on aromatic herbs. 173 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 3: Why is that? 174 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 2: Because the price hidough of romatic herbs is very high 175 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: because it's a very light product, it has a life 176 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: cycle that is very short, and the morphology of arentatic 177 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 2: herb is not so high and not so large. So 178 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 2: basically that city you can have per squameter is very important. Basil, 179 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 2: for instance, which is our best seller and the best 180 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: seller of most vertical farming companies, and the best place 181 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: which is south front of northern Italy, and it has 182 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 2: like three or four harvest per year. Here in Jungle 183 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: we do fourteen four zero, no one four. Sorry, that 184 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: would be crazy, that would be a good model. So 185 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: basically what makes it viable is how long is the 186 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: growing cycle, but also how much are you're going to 187 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: sell it? Who you're going to sell it too? Do 188 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: you package it or do you sell it bulk? Because 189 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: this has a big impact on the price. And we're 190 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: never going to do to answer your question, We're never 191 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 2: going to do fruit trees We're never going to do 192 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: lemon oranges because then the height doesn't make any sense 193 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: where not for now, we're going to do main crops 194 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 2: such as wheats, soy corn because it doesn't make any sense. 195 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 2: But maybe one day will. 196 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: So what does make sense? Besides selling aromatic oabs, Jungle 197 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 1: makes a lot of pets money selling flowers to perfume houses. 198 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: We weren't able to go into the perfume growing rooms, 199 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: but Jill did tell us about the success of one 200 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: particular flower, Lily of the Valley, that the startup is 201 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: growing for the perfume company firm a niche. 202 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 2: When you talk about perfume or cosmetic, it's a very 203 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: different approach because as we did it with the Lily 204 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: of the Valley, it never existed as a natural compound 205 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: in a perfume. The flowering cycle of Lily of the 206 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: Valley is too short in nature to be extracted. It 207 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 2: flowers only once a year, between seven to ten days, 208 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: depending on seasons, and an extraction cycle lasts between two 209 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: two three months, so not enough time and not enough quantity. Obviously, 210 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: with our partnership with Filminish, they asked us to try lily. 211 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 2: We secure the genetics. We did the R and D 212 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: to determine the right recipes and we were able to 213 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: grow them in sufficient quantity so that they could extract, 214 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: because to make an extraction and a viable extraction need 215 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: a lot of biomass. And basically the chromatographic report, the 216 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: toxic report, and the nose to the people who have 217 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: this job said that they never got anything like that 218 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: in their hands. So when you look at this type 219 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: of crop that never existed as natural compound, of course 220 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: the price is much higher because it never had a price, 221 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: so we needed to determine the price. But now, in 222 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 2: terms of crops for perfuman cosmetics, it varies from a 223 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: few euros to a few thousands of euros per kilo 224 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: per kilo, and a company like FRM and issue our partners, 225 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: they use a thousand, five hundred different variety of crops 226 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: per year and we are eligible in our system of 227 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 2: twenty five percent of that. 228 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 3: So basically it's about three hundred plants. 229 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: Plants us of plants, yes, sir, because of the height 230 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: and the requirement. 231 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: Yes, And in those plants you have lidely of the 232 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: value that we created. But also you have mint, you know, 233 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: because these companies, they do flavors and fragrances. 234 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 3: It's called fn F. It's the industry. 235 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 2: So they use mint for perfume, but they use also 236 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: meant to create a taste for any product that you 237 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: could find in retail. 238 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: So your business moves from making herbs to actually making 239 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: much high value products. You don't need to make herbs. 240 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 3: Not exactly. 241 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: We develop strong relationship with customers, so we're happy to 242 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 2: keep that going and it's part of our revenue, so 243 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 2: it's important to stabilize that. And if you realize in 244 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: terms of quantity, perfume is one on scale to one 245 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 2: two hundred, perfume is one, cosmetic is ten, and food 246 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 2: is one hundred volume in volume, so it's a different 247 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 2: price structure, but there's also a different volume. 248 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 3: Is a different business model. 249 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: So we need to carry on growing food, and we 250 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: will carry on growing food, and we want to go 251 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: about R and D to develop a lot of other things. 252 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: And herbs that you produce here and then you sell 253 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: in supermarkets. Are they cheaper than what's already available in 254 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: the supermarket grown in the wild. 255 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: There are the same price as the basic stuff in France. 256 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: And I'm going to talk about France because I've studied 257 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: that market pretty much, so we are entry level price 258 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: for the same weight, but we have virtues of using 259 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: a lot less water, zero pesticide, and lots of taste 260 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: and basically grown locally. So in France, if you want 261 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: to address a market and you're a newcomer, you're not 262 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: going to say, Okay, I have all these virtues and 263 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: I'm going to be more expensive. In the States, it's 264 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: a different game because agriculture is not the same. The 265 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: guys that are producing in vertical farms, they have a 266 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 2: price premium to their here it doesn't work. 267 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: It's all well and good for vertical farms to grow 268 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: perfume crops and aromatic herbs, but to feed the world 269 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: they'll need to start growing staples like wheat, soy and corn. 270 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: On this front, there has been some progress. In November 271 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: last year, an Amsterdam paced startup called Infarm managed to 272 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: grow wheat for the first time, and it said they 273 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: could grow six harvests a year, compared with just one 274 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: in open field farming. However, that same startup closed down 275 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: is European Operations earlier this summer. Jeal compares progress and 276 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: vertical farming to the recent history of another green industry 277 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: with well documented boom and bus cycles, the solar industry. 278 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: Vertico farming could have a parallel with the renewable energy sector. 279 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: With those solar power energy Why in the beginning of 280 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: the two thousand you had a solar panel that was expensive, 281 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: that was heavy, and through innovation investment, in time, it 282 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: became profitable. Africo farming is exactly the same. You're going 283 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: to have a machine. The capex of the machine is 284 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 2: going to be divided by two or go even lower 285 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 2: than that. The output that we get today a jungle 286 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 2: we have between forty five to fifty five kilo of 287 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 2: biomass per square meter preur. This could go to eighty 288 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: one hundred or even above one hundred kidos. So many 289 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: crops that were not profitable are going to become profitable. 290 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 2: So we're talking about tomatoes, raspberries, strawberries, and also cucumbers, zucchinis. 291 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: Chilis basically between fifty to sixty percent of anything that 292 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: you can find in the supermarket, and we can go 293 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: even beyond that. 294 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for the turn, for the conversation. 295 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 3: Thank you. 296 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: A lot will need to go right for vertical farms 297 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: to scale up globally, but advances are being made and 298 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: vertical farming is being tested right around the world. There 299 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: are now farms in Japan, Saudi Arabia, the Netherlands, the 300 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: US and other places. And when you talk to people 301 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: about why vertical farming is important, one reason you're often 302 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: hear is reducing water consumption. The closed loop environment means 303 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: that water can be recycled and reused. Another is improving 304 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: food security, especially in smaller countries that have little land 305 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: available for farming and who rely heavily on food imports. 306 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: On my recent tour of startups in Asia, I was 307 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: able to visit a second vertical farm in Singapore, a 308 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: country that is one hundred percent urban that's coming up 309 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:34,479 Speaker 1: after the break. 310 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 4: So would you like to guess how much letters we 311 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 4: have us every week? Now? 312 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: I'm in Singapore talking with Graycelip, a co founder of 313 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: grow Grace that opened its first proof of concept vertical 314 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: farm in summer twenty twenty. To even for an untrained eye, 315 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: there are some physical differences between this farm and the 316 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: one I saw in Paris. What's being grown is a 317 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: little bit different. The trays are larger, there's more vertical 318 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: space between them. But technology wise, it's a similar idea. 319 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: Grow Grace is growing a lot of lettuce, so much 320 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: that Grace has found it hard to find enough buyers. 321 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 4: Right, So, assuming that all the letters weigh two hundred grams, 322 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 4: how much do you think we have us every week? 323 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: One term? 324 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 4: Okay, so we have us one point two times every week, 325 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 4: so there is yes, very good. Actually actually not many 326 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 4: people get so close. A lot of people will say that, okay, 327 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 4: three hundred. 328 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: Cag So it seems I'm good at guessing the volume 329 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: of things. It's a side benefit maybe of spending years 330 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: in a chemistry lab. Anyway, that is a lot of lettuce. 331 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: And even though Grace does have some buyers, she told 332 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 1: me how difficult it is to turn a profit. 333 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 4: So there is about six thousand hits of letters every week, 334 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 4: and that's a lot of lettice. Which is why I 335 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 4: have trouble bringing this farm to profitability because it takes 336 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 4: a long time for us to establish a relationship with 337 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 4: a buyer. 338 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: Right. 339 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 4: And then also at the same time, even if this 340 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,239 Speaker 4: buyers want to support me, they cannot buy more of 341 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 4: one variety, but they can support different crops that I grow. 342 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 4: So which is why R and D is very important. 343 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: Finally, on the tour, Grace showed us the rainwater that 344 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: they harvest. 345 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 4: So this farm utilizes one hundred percent rainwater, and that 346 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 4: is our sixteen cubic meter rainwater harvesting tank. 347 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: And the rainword that's being harvested is on the roof 348 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: of this building. 349 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 4: That's right, It's from the roof of this building. 350 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 2: Yeah. 351 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 4: Right. So in Singapore, harvesting rainwater is illegal. You need 352 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 4: a special license to harvest raamwater because if everybody starts 353 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 4: to harvest rainwater commercially, then our reservoir will be empty. 354 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: What did you have to do to get a license 355 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: for rainwater. 356 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 4: Highway, Well, basically you have to fill up a lot 357 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 4: of farms and submitted to. 358 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: Pub pub or the Public Utilities Board is the water 359 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: authority in Singapore, and Grace's application was approved. The government 360 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: of Singapore has a lot of incentive to reduce food 361 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: and water imports because currently it imports over ninety percent 362 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: of its food and more than half of its water. 363 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: The island also doesn't have much land to grow crops. 364 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: That's one of the many things Grace and I talked 365 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: about after the door Grace, Welcome to the show. 366 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 4: Thank you very much. 367 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: Akshat. You have been operating this vertical farm for the 368 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: past year. Almost just walk us through the story of 369 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: how you got into vertical farming. 370 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 4: Okay, so this happened I think quite many years ago 371 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 4: when I was a mother raising young children, and I 372 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 4: remember being very concerned about what I feed to my children. 373 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 4: So I was giving them a lot of vegetables, thinking 374 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 4: that it's very good for them. And at some point 375 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 4: I came to realize that a lot of these vegetables 376 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 4: that I've been feeding my children are coming from countries 377 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 4: which grow them using a lot of pesticize. So that 378 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 4: made me really angry and really sad. So then I 379 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 4: decided to grow my own vegetables at home, and at 380 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 4: one time I was growing thirty six different types of vegetables. 381 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 4: So one day I was harvesting kill with my son, 382 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 4: and we harvested two big baskets of kill and we 383 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 4: started juicing them and making them do kill chips, and 384 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 4: I remember at that moment, I experienced immense joy in 385 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 4: my heart because I was feeding my children clean, healthy 386 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 4: produce that we grew in my own garden. And at 387 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 4: the moment I had an epiphany and I told myself 388 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 4: how wonderful it would be if I can bring this clean, 389 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 4: nutritious food to fellow singapore Rans. 390 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: And the farm that you ended up building cost about 391 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: three million Singapore dollars and you had to bring in 392 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: a number of partners to be able to build it. 393 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: What was the challenge and who were these partners? 394 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I formed a company with my two sisters, 395 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 4: but they're just sleeping shareholders and we're putting some money there. 396 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 4: And also my Dutch partners, so they are a consortium, 397 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 4: so they came in as a single shareholder. But the 398 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 4: Dutch consortium consists of a few parties. 399 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: The Dutch Consortium back in grow Grace includes eight companies 400 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: whose expertise is in various aspects of vertical farming, lighting, 401 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: climate control, seeds and growing materials. 402 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 4: The farm costs three million dollars to build, but we 403 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 4: do have support from Singapofoo agency as well. 404 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: And why was it that the Dutch consortium was so 405 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: crucial for your farm? 406 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 4: So when I wanted to do this project, I did 407 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 4: a lot of research and I've learned that the Dutch 408 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 4: hour world leaders in agriculture innovation. The Netherlands is the 409 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 4: second largest exporter of vegetables to the rest of the world. 410 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 4: So when I wanted to do this, I knew I 411 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 4: only wanted to partner with the best in class and 412 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 4: it's Dutch technologies. And indeed, I wouldn't compromise the type 413 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,959 Speaker 4: of technology that I would use in the farm because 414 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 4: everyone can grow, including myself and grow thirty six different 415 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 4: types of vegetables in my garden. But how much can 416 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 4: you grow? What is your eel, what is the quality 417 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 4: of your produce? And are you able to grow consistently? 418 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 4: Are you able to grow in an energy efficient and 419 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 4: what efficient way? That's a whole different ball game, right 420 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 4: And for me, the technology play a critical role, which 421 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 4: is why the Dutch involvement is very important for me 422 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 4: in this project. 423 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: And the technology you use with your Dutch partners is 424 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: a bit different from the technology that is used in 425 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: most vertical farms. But recently there have been a spate 426 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: of vertical farms going bankrupt. Why are you confident that 427 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: what you are doing how will succeed? 428 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 4: One thing that we have done differently from these all 429 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 4: these other indoor farms or the indoor farms that have 430 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 4: not been successful is that we do not create our 431 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 4: own technologies. We work with technologies that have been proven 432 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 4: to be very successful all over you, Europe and America 433 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 4: in greenhouse environment. So these technologies have already been used 434 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 4: in greenhouses for decades and they have been growing tons 435 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 4: of food very successfully. And what we did was bring 436 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 4: these proven and patented technologies to Singapore and we integrate 437 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 4: them using local engineering and construction expertise into an indoor 438 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 4: vertical environment. Based on my understanding and from what my 439 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 4: Dutch partners and I have investigated, a lot of these 440 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 4: indoor farms that failed put their own technologies together. And 441 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 4: technologies take time to mature, and when you put something 442 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 4: new together, you have to constantly tweak it. You know, 443 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 4: you have maintenance issues, your reaction time may not be 444 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 4: as fast because you're not familiar with it. So it 445 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 4: takes time to mature. And I think because of that, 446 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 4: they just run out of funds to further improve. 447 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: On the tech. Grow Grace uses technology from a Dutch 448 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: company called Dry Hydroponics. The name of the company is 449 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: also the name of the technology, and it may sound 450 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: a little like an oxymoron. The dry part is that 451 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: until the roots grow, they don't have constant contact with water. 452 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: That's the difference between grow Grace and other vertical farms, 453 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: and that intervention early in the life of the plant, 454 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: according to Grace, forces the plant to use less water 455 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: as it grows. The plant starts off in a substrate 456 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: made from a mixture of peat and is flooded with 457 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: artificial light. It's all minimal from a material's point of view. 458 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: One of the reasons why vertical farms have been going 459 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: bankrupt is because the produce they make does not generate 460 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: as much revenue as they need to be able to 461 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: pay for all the energy and all the equipment that 462 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: they have spent money on. So what is it that 463 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: you are growing and are you able to make money? 464 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 4: So growing indoor is definitely much more expensive than growing 465 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 4: in a greenhouse or growing in an open field, But 466 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 4: being able to grow indoor means that we think control 467 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 4: all the growing parameters. And when we can control all 468 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 4: the growing parameters, we're talking about precision farming, and that 469 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 4: is when you can grow perfect heits of lattices, perfect crops, 470 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 4: and these perfect crops, in my opinion, are considered premium produce. 471 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 4: And when it's premium produced, you can command a premium price, 472 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 4: even though this is not my vision, because my vision 473 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 4: is to be able to grow premium crops that is 474 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 4: also affordable to Heartlanders. Unfortunately, at this point we are 475 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 4: paying sky hair energy prices, so we cannot afford to 476 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 4: do that. But I totally see that this sceneio will 477 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 4: change in the near future if we're able to tap 478 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 4: on renewable energy. Meanwhile, yes, we have to sell this 479 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 4: as premium crops for a premium price, and there is 480 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 4: a demand for premium produce in Singapore because we are 481 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 4: importing a lot of premium produce from Japan, from Korea, 482 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 4: from Australia and from Europe. And my intention for grow 483 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 4: grades one, which is this farm that you visited, is 484 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 4: to just replace these imports from these countries that I've 485 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 4: just listed. 486 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: And roughly, if you were to split the costs of 487 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: running the plant, how much is it energy, how much 488 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: is it labor, how much is it equipment? 489 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 4: Okay, so unfortunately energy comprises fifty percent of the overall 490 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 4: cost of production and labor twenty five percent, and the 491 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 4: other twenty five percent is neutrons sees maintenance at hot repairs. 492 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: So this is a pilot firm and you have plans 493 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: to expand it, right. 494 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 4: Yes, so this is our proof of concept and obviously 495 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 4: it has proven to be very successful. So right now 496 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 4: I need to prove the value of the farm. This 497 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 4: is where I have to work really hard on sales, 498 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 4: sell all the produce with a margin, and then from 499 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 4: there I can attract investors to invest in an expanded 500 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 4: or rather than upscale goog gries too, which I've intended 501 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 4: to build just next to the existing firm. So it 502 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 4: is very import for me to build a much bigger 503 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 4: farm because we started this company to contribute to food security. 504 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 4: We want to be able to grow to bring a 505 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 4: significant impact to Singapore, and our vision really is to 506 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 4: turn growing cities into thriving farms. We want to be 507 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 4: able to build a big indoor farm in every city center, 508 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 4: starting with Asia. Right so, yes, we want to build 509 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 4: upskill farm. But before we can do that, we need 510 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 4: to take the learnings from building this first farm into 511 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 4: the design and engineering of the second farm. Even though 512 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 4: grow Grace is a great farm, but we have learned 513 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 4: that we can further optimize it for it to be 514 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 4: more efficient, more energy efficient, operationally, more efficient as well, 515 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 4: and in order to do this study, in order to 516 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 4: do this value engineering, we need to put together a 517 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 4: technical committee, you know, to study the lesson that we 518 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 4: have learned, where we build this POC, this proof of concept, 519 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 4: and for that we will require investment money. 520 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: So right now you're trying to raise money. 521 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 4: Yes, we are trying to raise five million dollars for 522 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 4: a stick in the company. 523 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. 524 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 4: So, and I really want to attract investors who believe 525 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 4: in our vision, who believe that the future of farming 526 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 4: is indoor, who want to bring food security to cities, 527 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 4: and who want to contribute to sustainable agriculture. 528 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: The substrate you use is pete moss and other organics. 529 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: Where does it come from? Because pete itself is not 530 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: a sustainable material. 531 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 4: I have been looking into this as well, and I 532 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 4: have been speaking to the founder of dry Hydroponics, who 533 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 4: is the designer of the recipe for this substrate. And 534 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 4: at this moment, I don't have an answer for you, 535 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 4: but we are looking for a more sustainable ingredient for 536 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 4: the substrate. 537 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Greens. Shay Lee, who's based in Singapore, was with 538 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: me on the grow Grace store. She asked how much 539 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: produce grow grape sells each month and what amount they 540 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: need to sell to be profitable. 541 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 4: So I'm able to sell fifty percent of the produce, 542 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 4: unfortunately at a loss, because when I started growing in November, 543 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 4: I need to find a buyer very quickly just to 544 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 4: cover costs, right, So I was able to find a 545 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 4: buyer to oft take half of the harvest, which is 546 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 4: about six hundred kg, but I'm selling it at a loss, 547 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 4: and then the other half I would say I'm so far, 548 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 4: I'm able to sell twenty five percent at a profit 549 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 4: and the other twenty five percent of the harvest are 550 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 4: still unsold. And my plan, my strategy is to be 551 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 4: able to offer more crops to buyers, because it makes 552 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 4: total sense that one buyer cannot buy more of one 553 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 4: crop from you, but they can buy more varieties from you. 554 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 4: So I know that my current buyers are very supportive 555 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 4: of grew grays, and what I have to do is 556 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 4: just to offer them different products, different crops, and that's 557 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 4: some that I'm working very hard on, which is why 558 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 4: we are experimenting. We're doing R and D every few 559 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 4: months for new crops. 560 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: And when do you expect to break even if. 561 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 4: I'm able to sell all my crops at a profit, 562 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 4: which I'm working towards. I foresee that we will be 563 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 4: able to be profitable in the first quarter of twenty four. 564 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: Right, So that's breaking even within two years of building it. 565 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 4: No, no, no, not breaking even, but to have the farm stop 566 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 4: bleeding and start seeing some money coming in. Yeah, but 567 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 4: breaking even is going to take years. 568 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, thank you so much, Thank you so much. 569 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,719 Speaker 1: There's a logical alleo to the idea of vertical farming. 570 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: Saving on water, soil, and land is a crucial climate solution, 571 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: as we learn from George Monbio in an episode we 572 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: ran a few weeks back. Vertical farming also evokes a 573 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: utopian science fiction world, one that we expect future humans need. 574 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: But figuring out the business model right now is not straightforward. 575 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: It will need the persistence of people like Shiel and 576 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: Grace to crack it. Thanks so much for listening to Zero. 577 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: If you want to check out some of the reporting 578 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,959 Speaker 1: on green tech from my trip to Singapore, it is 579 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: linked in the show notes. If you liked this episode, 580 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review it, subscribe 581 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, Send it to a friend 582 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: or someone who eats a lot of leafy greens. Get 583 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: in touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's 584 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine Driskell. 585 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks this 586 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: week to Cheryl Lee, Natasha White, and Kira binrim i'm 587 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: Akshatrati back next week.