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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Ron Desantas's biggest donor has pulled

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Speaker 1: out due to the candidate's policies being too extreme. We're

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Speaker 1: back from vacation with a fantastic show for you Today.

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Speaker 1: Alex Winter stops by to talk about his excellent documentary

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Speaker 1: The YouTube Effect. Then we'll talk to Celeste Hedley and

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Speaker 1: Marie Brenner about their amazing podcast Big Sugar. But first

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Speaker 1: we have Pod Save America's Tommy Vitour. Welcome to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 2: Tommy, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: Very excited to have you.

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Speaker 1: And also, not much has happened in the week that

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Speaker 1: I have quote unquote been on vacation. Another Trump indictment,

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Speaker 1: a federal indictment, a superseding, basically one and a half

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Speaker 1: more federal indictments.

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Speaker 2: Congratulations, Thank you, Yes, seventy eight counts. It's good to

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Speaker 2: have your number of accounts to be just match your AIGs.

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Speaker 2: That's all. We're all good. Thanks v here.

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Speaker 1: I mean again, like the thing I'm so struck by,

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Speaker 1: and you have worked in politics, you know, like they

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Speaker 1: had this off ramp yet again, and yet again they

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Speaker 1: were like, no, this is our guy.

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Speaker 2: The Republicans, you mean, yeah, in terms of the primary, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know what is remarkable about this is

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Speaker 2: the timing. You know, they are going to be three

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Speaker 2: of the majority of their primaries and caucuses when these

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Speaker 2: trials start, potentially unless they get delayed, and so they're

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Speaker 2: in this position where none of the Republicans are going

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Speaker 2: to seem willing to run hard against Donald Trump, but

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Speaker 2: they might be in a position where he's just appearing

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Speaker 2: in the court room for the majority of the campaign

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Speaker 2: and nobody seems to want to do anything about it. It's incredible.

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Speaker 1: I'm like so impressed because again, I feel like this

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Speaker 1: just keeps happening. There's like a moment of silence where

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Speaker 1: they're like, wait, we should get this guy the curb,

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Speaker 1: and then they're like, no, too much warp. Let's just

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Speaker 1: stick with our guy, even though he has, you know,

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Speaker 1: a trial in New York coming up, a trial in

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Speaker 1: the district, now, a trial in Florida.

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Speaker 3: Like no, no, this is our man.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, to me, it's just sort of a story

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Speaker 2: of compounding political cowardice. Because there was the moment right

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Speaker 2: after January sixth, where they could have impeached him, Mitch

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Speaker 2: McConnell decided to be a whimp and not go forward

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Speaker 2: with that. I think he was worried that Trump would

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Speaker 2: leave and start his own party and you know, hurt

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Speaker 2: the Republicans in the long run. But then, you know,

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Speaker 2: you and Kevin McCarthy say some tough things about what

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Speaker 2: Trump had done and blame him for the insurrection, and

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Speaker 2: then fly down to mar Lago to kiss his ass.

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Speaker 2: And fast forward to today. I mean, they have not

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Speaker 2: laid the groundwork with Republican voters to know, convince them

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Speaker 2: that January sixth was should rule him out as president.

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Speaker 1: I keep thinking it's funny because it's like yesterday I

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Speaker 1: was in the UK doing this news show on Sky

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Speaker 1: and like the anchor kept saying to me, well, we

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Speaker 1: in the UK don't see any that he becomes president,

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Speaker 1: And I was like, do you guys not understand.

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Speaker 3: How the electoral college works?

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Speaker 1: Like he doesn't have to win the popular vote, He

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Speaker 1: just needs to win ten thousand voters in Wisconsin and

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Speaker 1: twenty thousand voters in you know, Michigan. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is a sort of insane system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you're right that

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Speaker 2: it's kind of a coin flip. You know, right now

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Speaker 2: it's fifty to fifty, but the electoral college process is

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Speaker 2: stacked in favor of Republicans. I think, you know, Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden would probably have to win like fifty one, fifty

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Speaker 2: two to fifty three percent of the popular vote to

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Speaker 2: really feel comfortable that he was going to get it

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Speaker 2: over the finish line with the electoral college. And also,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's polls. There's a poll out today the

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Speaker 2: New York Times that has Trump with forty four percent

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Speaker 2: of the vote in the Iowa COCCAS scores among Iowa

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Speaker 2: COCCA scorers, and DeSantis is twenty. So he's doubling up

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Speaker 2: his next primary opponent in the first state. And by

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Speaker 2: the way, Iowa's a state that he has struggled in historically,

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Speaker 2: so he's probably going to better numbers from there.

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Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, he actually lost Iowa to Ted Cruz, which, yeah,

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Speaker 1: imagine losing anything to Ted Cruz truly embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: You just, yeah, with the worst person in the world.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, We're just saying that because we're jealous of his

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Speaker 1: enormous podcasting success.

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Speaker 2: Correct, He's a full time podcaster, part time senator, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's a pretty good life hack if you

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Speaker 2: want to.

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Speaker 1: Feel happy, I'm being Yeah, Ted cruz Is really makes

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Speaker 1: Marco Rubio look like a charming guy.

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Speaker 2: Sure does.

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Speaker 1: I do want for one minute to make fun of

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Speaker 1: the boys who work at the National Review. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: hate that Trump is the nominee, but I still delight

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Speaker 1: in their incredible miscalculation when it comes to Ron DeSantis.

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Speaker 2: And then, yeah, Ron DeSantis, I think someone needed to

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Speaker 2: perform kind of an early charisma check on him and

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Speaker 2: just go down there and spend thirty minutes in a

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Speaker 2: room with the guy. Like, I don't think it's over

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Speaker 2: for Ron DeSantis. He is twenty percent in that Iowa poll.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeh, there was some under the hood. There

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Speaker 2: were some numbers on electability that were a little better

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Speaker 2: for him than I would have expected among Iowa Coccus scores.

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Speaker 2: I think I think that's the path to defeating Trump

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Speaker 2: in this primary, which is convincing a bunch of hardcore Republicans,

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Speaker 2: even maybe a portion of Trump's base, that he will

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Speaker 2: lose to Joe Biden because of all this baggage like,

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Speaker 2: that's what I would be doing all day every day,

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Speaker 2: kind of like Chris Christy is. But yeah, Ron DeSantis

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Speaker 2: has just shown himself to be uncomfortable around human beings.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure how I else to say it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that there was a Republican member of

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Speaker 1: a big real estate family who went and met with

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Speaker 1: him early on and left and was like, I'm never.

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Speaker 3: Giving him any money.

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Speaker 1: And I thought like, if you can do that with

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Speaker 1: a donor one on one, then you you know, it's

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Speaker 1: one thing to leave and say like I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: this is the best pick.

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Speaker 3: But he was literally like this guy sucks.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, all right, you know, so I

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Speaker 1: am very impressed by that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he propulses people.

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Speaker 4: I think.

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Speaker 2: The New York Times asked Republican primary voters in their

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Speaker 2: most recent poll which candidates they thought were fun, and like,

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Speaker 2: they think Trump is fun, you know, and listen, he like,

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Speaker 2: we detest the guy. He repulses us. But for a

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Speaker 2: lot of Republican like Maga people, they go to these events,

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Speaker 2: they have a great time. They see their friends, they like,

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Speaker 2: they hear them play the greatest hits about the deep

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Speaker 2: state and lock her up and blah blah blah, and

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Speaker 2: like there's nothing about Ronda Sants campaign that seems enjoyable.

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Speaker 2: He's at the state fair telling kids, are you consume

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Speaker 2: it makes too much sugar? You know, like that's that's

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Speaker 2: the place you go to eat too much sugar. Ron,

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Speaker 2: that was an amazing moment. Yeah, that kid, he was like,

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Speaker 2: isn't that a lot of sugar? I'm always looking she's nine.

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Speaker 2: You psychout. You do a couple of things at the

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Speaker 2: Iowa Stay Fair. I've been many times. You eat like

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Speaker 2: some sort of funnel cake, You go on some fun rides,

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Speaker 2: you gorge on like a fried twinkie. You see the buttercow.

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Speaker 2: You don't lecture people, especially like a little girl. I

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Speaker 2: believe about being our sugar and like an icy pop.

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Speaker 3: Now Ron DeSantis.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of Ron DeSantis, he has taken a pivot and

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Speaker 1: decided he's no longer going to a focus on the

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Speaker 1: people he's running against. He's going to focus on Gavin

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Speaker 1: Newsom because he is running for governor of California.

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Speaker 2: Discussed if that is interesting, I mean, I think the

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Speaker 2: Desanta's campaign must be thinking to themselves. Donald Trump has

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Speaker 2: blotted out the sun. He is consuming all day of

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Speaker 2: every news cycle, even if it's bad news with indictments

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Speaker 2: or whatever. It's so benefiting him because we just can't

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Speaker 2: get covered except for when we're firing people. Therefore, what

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Speaker 2: gimmicks can we use to get in the press? Gavin

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Speaker 2: Newsom is like super pugilistic. He clearly hates Ron DeSantis,

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Speaker 2: understandably so, and wants to do this debate. Like I

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Speaker 2: actually think Gavin Newsom would probably mop the floor with

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Speaker 2: Rond de Santis in this event. But it's a weird

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Speaker 2: choice to debate some random dude.

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Speaker 1: We'll see, right, I think it's really smart on the

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Speaker 1: point on the part of Dessantas right, DeSantis is quietly

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Speaker 1: waiting in the wings, God forbid something happens to Biden.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think he's positioned himself as like the alt.

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Speaker 1: I mean, don't you think that's what's happening and that's

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Speaker 1: why there's some hostility towards him.

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Speaker 2: What are you saying DeSantis is the alt? Or are

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Speaker 2: Gavin's the alt?

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Speaker 3: Gavin is the Alt?

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I think Gavin Newsome I spent a little time

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Speaker 2: with him. He's super competitive. He wants Democrats to be tougher.

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Speaker 2: He wants to win. He is unbelievably frustrated about sort

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Speaker 2: of like information bubbles, which is why he went on

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Speaker 2: Sean Handy's show in the first place, and.

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Speaker 3: He killed it on Sean Hannaday. I thought he was great.

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Speaker 2: If I had been in this comms person and they said, hey,

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Speaker 2: I want to go on Sean Handedy, I said, a boss,

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Speaker 2: absolutely not. This is a bring against you. Don't do it.

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Speaker 2: Go on like a Joe Rogan or some other show

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Speaker 2: where you have a chance. I was wrong, he was right.

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Speaker 2: It was fantastic.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's definitely probably part of Gavin

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Speaker 2: that wants to run for president. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: he will, but he's certainly like creating this national profile

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Speaker 2: for himself by you know, punching a lot of Republicans

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Speaker 2: in the face, including on Fox News, which I think

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Speaker 2: the Democrats probably like.

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Speaker 1: I have to say that Meg Gaffin before, and I

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Speaker 1: was struck by how readily charismatic he was, like shocking

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Speaker 1: like charismatic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, he's like, if you look at the

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Speaker 2: resume and the things they've gotten done in California, it's

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Speaker 2: incredibly impressive. And then he is, you know, like super

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Speaker 2: likable guy in a lot of ways, like he can,

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Speaker 2: you know, deliver a compelling message to a crowd. And

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Speaker 2: he's also dyslexic, so the way he retains information is

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Speaker 2: just by memorizing everything. So he has all these facts

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Speaker 2: and figures like right there on the on the tip

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Speaker 2: of his tongue that can hurt you. I think, you

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Speaker 2: know why work for Barack Obama. There were times when

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Speaker 2: he sounded way too wonky and was appealing to people

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Speaker 2: with like, you know, spreadsheets, basically verbal spreadsheets, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think that always works, but I think a few

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Speaker 2: layer in, you know, some emotional appeals with a clear

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Speaker 2: grasp with the acts, that can be pretty pretty effective.

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Speaker 1: Good thing that I think about with these candidates, as

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Speaker 1: we're talking about we're in this strange primary season of weirdness,

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Speaker 1: is that it does seem like Ted Cruz has an

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Speaker 1: incredible amount of ambition, used largely to become a clown.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of these candidates don't feel, especially on

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Speaker 1: the Democratic side, don't feel that ambitious, whereas Newsom seems

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Speaker 1: like a killer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good observation. I do think Gavin

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Speaker 2: seems like there's a lot of like really strong Democratic

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Speaker 2: governors in the various states, you know, Regretchen Witmer, Roy

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Speaker 2: Cooper in North Carolina. Like the list can go on

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Speaker 2: and on and on. You don't see a lot of

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Speaker 2: them going on TV to pick fights with the entire

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Speaker 2: Republican Party. Yeah, we're like picking a fight with Greg

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Speaker 2: Abbott or some other Republican Right. So Gavin is definitely

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Speaker 2: like feels.

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Speaker 1: The need to be out there, yeah, which I actually

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Speaker 1: think ultimately is good. Now, one of the things I've

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Speaker 1: been really struck by as we are watching this and

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Speaker 1: looking at this all this polling, which again with all

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Speaker 1: this pulling, you know, maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong.

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Speaker 3: Right, We've seen it be wrong before.

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Speaker 1: But the thing I've been struck by is like, and

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about this yesterday when I was watching

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Speaker 1: Alina Habba give a pess conference during Trump's arraignment where

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Speaker 1: she was saying and really you know, she was saying

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Speaker 1: and you can see that the day that Trump was,

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Speaker 1: you know, was indicted by New York was the day

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Speaker 1: after they found Hunter Biden's laptop, you know, making this

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Speaker 1: kind of taste that this was all Democrats trying to

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Speaker 1: obfuscate Hunter's laptop instead of what it really was, which

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Speaker 1: was the guy who did all the crimes. Maybe getting

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Speaker 1: in a little bit of trouble for it, but it

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Speaker 1: works with their people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it does. I caught a clip of Joe

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Speaker 2: Rogan today who is basically like, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: there's going to be some people who saying Trump economy

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Speaker 2: before COVID was pretty good. I'd love to go back

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Speaker 2: to that. And you know, when you look at all

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Speaker 2: these efforts to indict Donald Trump, it does seem like

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Speaker 2: they're targeting him. If you look at the history with

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Speaker 2: the Steele dossier and the impeachments, et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: does seem like there's a coordinate effort to go after

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Speaker 2: him and maybe he's the victim. And I think there

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Speaker 2: is some real risk there of Republicans being able to,

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Speaker 2: you know, reach that audience, like so of the Joe

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Speaker 2: Rogan audience that is predisposed to think that there is

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Speaker 2: some grand conspiracy driving these things, and also filter in

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Speaker 2: little bits of news about the allegations against Hunter Biden

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Speaker 2: and you know, make these baseless suggestions that Joe Biden

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Speaker 2: was essentially part of it.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny because It's like people will be like, well,

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Speaker 1: what would you think about Hunter Biden.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, send him to jail.

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Speaker 1: I don't care, no, my kid, I mean whatever, Democrats

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Speaker 1: are not a cult. I mean, if you want to

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Speaker 1: lock up all the bidens, I mean, I just you know,

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Speaker 1: if somebody did a crime, they should go to jail.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean there's really two pieces of the story. I

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Speaker 2: mean there's the there's the plea agreement piece of this,

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Speaker 2: and it was sort of like you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: tax fraud or failure to pay taxes and then sort

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Speaker 2: of you know, making a mistatement on a gun license,

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Speaker 2: like Republicans want to put people in jail for that. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I mean that's that's fair.

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Speaker 3: This is strange.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And didn't Rogerstone have some tax issues too.

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Speaker 2: I mean I think a lot of the feeling comfy

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Speaker 2: and that's some tax issues over the years, you know,

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Speaker 2: And I think, look, I'm with you, like everyone should

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Speaker 2: face the same standard of justice. But you know, Trump

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Speaker 2: prosecutor is the one who's been looking at these Hunter

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Speaker 2: Biden allegations and cut this plea deal. But there's the

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Speaker 2: other piece of this. I think we need to do

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Speaker 2: a better job emphasizing, which is like Hunter Biden is

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Speaker 2: someone who is dealing with a really horrific addiction problem,

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Speaker 2: and Joe Biden was a dad in this case, like

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Speaker 2: just you know, doing everything he could in his power

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Speaker 2: to keep his kid alive. You know, I mean quite literally,

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Speaker 2: Like I read Hunter's book, and you know, it's it's

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Speaker 2: a miracle he's still here, you know. And so I

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Speaker 2: think emphasizing that part of the story, like Joe Biden

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Speaker 2: the father dealing with the loved one with addiction, Like

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Speaker 2: that's a story that I think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: can understand and relate to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I read that book and I interviewed Hunter,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sober since I was nineteen and come from

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Speaker 1: a family riddled with addiction and alcoholism. So I totally

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Speaker 1: get it. Yeah, and also remember Hunter. I Mean the

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Speaker 1: thing that I feel like is maybe a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a messaging malpractice is like we forget that Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden has had this incredible tragedy and has had all

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Speaker 1: of these children. I mean, like you're pigging on one

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Speaker 1: of his two surviving children. And when you're not pigging,

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Speaker 1: you know, like Trump, when Trump World isn't pigging on

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Speaker 1: on Hunter. They're picking on Ashley, like of his two

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Speaker 1: surviving children, Like, think about how catastrophic that kind of losses.

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Speaker 2: It's unimaginable. I mean, you know, I have been a

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Speaker 2: month old daughter, Like what happened to Joe Biden, you know,

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Speaker 2: with his wife, that accident, entering his first wife. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's unimaginable to me. I don't even want to think

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Speaker 2: about it. And then losing Bo who clearly was Ina

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Speaker 2: s or Joe Biden's other half, equally horrific and unfair

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Speaker 2: and tragic and just you know, the crassness of deciding

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Speaker 2: to go this hard after Hunter Biden politically just to

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Speaker 2: harm his dad is kind of, I guess, part and

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Speaker 2: parcel of our politics. I do wonder if there will

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Speaker 2: be some part of the electorate that's turned off by

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Speaker 2: I do think, like there's reasonable criticisms to make about,

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Speaker 2: you know, suppression of the laptop story by news outlets

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Speaker 2: for the election, et cetera, et cetera. All the things

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Speaker 2: they're talking about are specific to Hunter Biden's conduct. There's

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Speaker 2: no accusation, even from Hunter Biden's business partner, that Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden was in on the deal, right, just like taking

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Speaker 2: a call from his kid and got put on speakerphone.

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Speaker 2: We're showing you out or saying hi to business associates

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Speaker 2: like I don't know, what are you to tell your

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Speaker 2: kid to give your kid the heisman and say no,

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Speaker 2: I will take your phone call, of course, not or

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Speaker 2: anything human being. So we'll see how this plays out.

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Speaker 2: And also I think, you know, if I were Jared

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Speaker 2: and Evanka, I would be a little worried about a

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Speaker 2: broader narrative about you know, kids benefiting from political connections.

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Speaker 2: Given a Jared got two billion dollars from the Saudi

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Speaker 2: government for his little investment fund.

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Speaker 3: It is amazing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the Trump kids are such and I say

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Speaker 1: this is a beneficiary of nepotism myself, and I always

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Speaker 1: am really a book born on that.

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Speaker 3: It's just amazing to me.

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Speaker 1: The last thing I would do, or at least I

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Speaker 1: would put in the caveat you know, this nepotism born

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Speaker 1: on third base, you know.

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Speaker 3: Did not hit a home run.

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Speaker 1: So it is kind of amazing to me that those

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Speaker 1: kids managed to me somehow. I mean, Don Junior, that

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Speaker 1: is really an incredible bit of projection.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean just so angry about it too.

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Speaker 2: Just profiting off of everything they do, you know, like

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Speaker 2: you'll see him doing spond con for like steaks and shit.

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Speaker 2: You're like, dude, I thought you were the son of

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Speaker 2: a billionaire. Couldn't you even Jared Kushner again, Like, yes,

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Speaker 2: Hunter Biden did some things that I don't agree with.

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Speaker 2: There were troubling then if he broke the laws, he

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Speaker 2: should be prosecuting. The difference in my book is like

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Speaker 2: Trump made Jared Kushner his like shadow Secretary of State,

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Speaker 2: a guy every reason, Like I was whatsapping with Mohammad

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Speaker 2: b and Salman, this homicidal dictator or run in Saudi Arabia.

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Speaker 2: He was cutting these Middle East piece deals they were

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Speaker 2: not peace deals, about Abraham A Cord deals, and then

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Speaker 2: clearly getting a huge kickback on the back end, like

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Speaker 2: literally got two billion dollars from the Saudis despite having

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Speaker 2: no investing experience. That's something I think that's worth talking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not laughing because it's funny. I'm laughing

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Speaker 1: to keep from crying.

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Speaker 2: Now. I'm with you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Tommy, you think next week we're gonna see some

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Speaker 1: Georgia indictments?

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Speaker 2: God, good question. I can't believe there's more of this

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Speaker 2: to come. I do. I wonder you know that my

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Speaker 2: colleague Max Fisher, who is a criok media now he's

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Speaker 2: the New York Times. For a while, he looked at

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Speaker 2: how prosecutions had gone internationally and he saw some evidence

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Speaker 2: that in South Africa there was an instance where like

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Speaker 2: the accumulation that charges against a leader there, you know,

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Speaker 2: led people to over time think like, Okay, this guy's

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Speaker 2: got to go. I wonder if that cumulative effect will

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Speaker 2: happen here with Trump or if at some point people

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Speaker 2: will either think, okay, now he's being targeted unfairly, or

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Speaker 2: maybe just tune it out. I don't know, but it

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Speaker 2: is remarkable. They were going to be waiting for another

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Speaker 2: set of indictments.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because Trump world is saying that three

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Speaker 1: indictments is better than one.

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Speaker 4: Maybe they're right.

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Speaker 2: There was a Raiders pullout today with ask respondents they

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Speaker 2: would vote for Trump for president if you were convicted

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Speaker 2: of a felony by a jury. In forty five percent

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Speaker 2: said they would not vote for him. This is mong Republicans.

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Speaker 2: Thirty five percent, yeah, said they would, so you know again,

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Speaker 2: twenty eight percent they would vote for him if you

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Speaker 2: were currently serving time in prison, so you know, dispiriting.

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Speaker 2: That's the Laura Lumer crew. Thank you so much, Tommy.

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Speaker 2: I hope you'll come back. Of course, it was a

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Speaker 2: blast finger thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Alex Winter is an actor and director and his latest

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Speaker 1: film is called The YouTube Effect and it's out now.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Fast Politics, Alex.

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Speaker 4: Winter, so good to be here. Thanks, Molly.

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Speaker 1: I already delighted to have you. Really interested to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about this movie.

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Speaker 3: I also like wonder. I just first want.

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Speaker 1: To quickly ask you about like I guess I very

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Speaker 1: much understand, like moving from being an.

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Speaker 3: Actor to being a filmmaker. But just two seconds on that,

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Speaker 3: well he started doing both.

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Speaker 4: I was a child actor. I was on Broadway for

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Speaker 4: a lot of my childhood and saving up for film

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Speaker 4: school them so I stopped acting. I've quit acting like

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Speaker 4: five times. The first time was at like seventeen years old,

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Speaker 4: after ten years of acting professionally as a child. Then

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Speaker 4: I went to NYU Film School to study directing and writing.

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Speaker 4: When I came out of that and I was broke

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Speaker 4: and still had an agent, so I said, can you

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Speaker 4: get me some auditions? So I could avoid delivering pizza

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Speaker 4: like my roommate, and I ended up booking like Lost

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Speaker 4: Boys and Bill and Ted and all this stuff, which

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Speaker 4: look I wasn't like looking down my nose on. It

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Speaker 4: was super fun. But at that time I was already directing.

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Speaker 4: I was directing music videos and TV commercials, and my

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Speaker 4: partner Tompson, and I had a show on MTV, our

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Speaker 4: movie Freak. So I'm kind of always done both. It's

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Speaker 4: just one is less publicly visible than the other.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty interesting. And also I was just am curious

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Speaker 1: about how people get where they're going because I have

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Speaker 1: like never had a normal career or known how to

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Speaker 1: get one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I don't know either. I couldn't tell you anything

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Speaker 4: about that. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I literally was like I remember being like nineteen and

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Speaker 1: being like, okay, so I'll just write a book because

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Speaker 1: I have no idea how you do anything else?

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Speaker 4: Yep, not good. Yeah, that's it. I do what I

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Speaker 4: do and I can't do anything else, So thankfully I'm

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Speaker 4: doing this.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about this movie. What sort of got

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Speaker 1: you going on this? Why did you decide to make.

436
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 4: It getting through as quickly as possible. I've been around

437
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 4: the internet from the beginning of the kind of public

438
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 4: facing Internet, which was in the eighties. I first got

439
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 4: online and probably eighty fivee.

440
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:52,480
Speaker 3: What was that Prodigy.

441
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 4: It was a BBS era, so in bulletin board systems,

442
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 4: you know, simples islet modem No, no way yet. But

443
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 4: I was very captivated by the growth of online community

444
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 4: right away and how robust it was, and how diverse,

445
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 4: and how the barriers were being broken down all over

446
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 4: the planet and within what would become much bigger subcultures

447
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 4: and then primary cultures as the Internet grew. And that

448
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 4: was just a really fascinating place to be and it's

449
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 4: kind of the way things are now, just writ large.

450
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 4: It was a very small version of these giant communities

451
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 4: we now have. So I started making my first doc

452
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 4: was about the rise and fall of Napster, and I

453
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 4: was around Sean Fanning and Parker for the back end

454
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 4: of Napster's demise and spent a lot of time with

455
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 4: Sean Fanning primarily, and Aldam San Matteo and the other

456
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 4: primary players at Napster because Napster was really the first

457
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 4: time you ever had a large scale online community ever,

458
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 4: one hundred million people on the Internet at once, very seminal.

459
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 4: So that's been an area of fascination for me. And

460
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 4: YouTube is by far, by an order of magnitude, the

461
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 4: largest media platform on the globe. You know, it's the

462
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 4: second most search website on the planet after Google. Both

463
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 4: of those are owned by one company. And the implications

464
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 4: are so vast and I never hear them really being

465
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 4: discussed very much other than kind of somewhat cliche stuff

466
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 4: about like being rabbit holed or black killed or things

467
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 4: that don't even really have much relevance anymore. And so

468
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 4: I really wanted to dig in and figure out, like

469
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 4: what the implications of this vast beast are.

470
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I always thinking about this regulation is like the

471
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: most unsexy topic ever.

472
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 3: Right.

473
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: Trump was able to fuck up a lot of our

474
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 1: country and our planet and our you know, environmentally and

475
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: like with transit. I mean, he was able to deregulate

476
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: a lot of things very quickly, and that was sort

477
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: of what he ran on. And I don't think when

478
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 1: he would say this stuff, I don't know that anyone.

479
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 3: I'm sure, I mean, some.

480
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 1: People, but mostly a lot of people didn't really kind

481
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: of understand what the larger implications for deregulating things were,

482
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: But this is not even a question of deregulation. This

483
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 1: is more of a question of like, these things are

484
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: not regulated.

485
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 4: No, they're not. And it's very, very difficult to successfully

486
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 4: regulate companies that have such deep pockets because their lobbying

487
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 4: power is so vast and impenetrable, and it's spread evenly

488
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 4: across both sides of the aisles, so you know they

489
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 4: own they've locked up most of the Democrats and most

490
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 4: of the Republicans. And no one is coming at I

491
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 4: mean my movie specifically about Google, but you can stay

492
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 4: similar for Meta and other platform big companies. But no

493
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 4: one's coming at Google with any in my opinion, any

494
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 4: meaningful legislation or regulation at all. And I think that

495
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 4: there are things being done on the state level, there

496
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 4: are things being done by individual lawyers who are suing them,

497
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 4: like Harry Goldberg who's in our film, but there is

498
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 4: really nothing happening, and there's an enormous amount of talk

499
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 4: and posturing, and I would say, honestly, literally, no meaningful

500
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 4: anti trust, anti monopoly regulation that would that would actually help.

501
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 4: In fact, conversely, I would say that the a lot

502
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 4: of what I don't mean to be a party pooper

503
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 4: but a lot of what the government.

504
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: No, we never talk about the president stuff here. So

505
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: it's just like.

506
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, as much as I want the federal government to

507
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 4: to because I do think that this is going to

508
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 4: become a this is only can be solved by the

509
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 4: federal government, at the end of the day, you have

510
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 4: to sort of deal with these companies like we dealt

511
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 4: with Standard Oil.

512
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 3: So we're in trouble.

513
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So I think that the A they don't

514
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 4: understand the technology very much anyway, be there, they're they're

515
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 4: paid up up to the hill with with cash and

516
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 4: then see the ideas they do have about regular regulating

517
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 4: the Internet are usually terrible and will make the Internet worse,

518
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 4: like what's going on largely with the EU regulation with

519
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 4: the Internet and which has caused a lot of censorship

520
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 4: and a lot of marginalized communities to be art. And

521
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 4: I think that the US is gearing up, especially on

522
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 4: AI and social media platform is gearing up for very

523
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 4: similar I think they're borrowing some of the language from

524
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 4: some of the same people who wrote the EEU language

525
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 4: a very similar misguided approach to dealing with these issues,

526
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 4: and I think it's going to hurt people more than

527
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 4: it's going to help them. So I think we have

528
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 4: kind of a bumpy road ahead.

529
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: So explain why a little more on that, because I

530
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: don't know so much about the EU regulations except I

531
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: know that they have more regulation than we do here.

532
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 4: They do. But the thing that people get very excited

533
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 4: when there's language around turning off and we're deplatforming or

534
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 4: shutting down chunks of the Internet. But these this is

535
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 4: a fragile landscape, and you know, there's a lot of

536
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 4: great articles written about this, so it's not a difficult

537
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 4: thing to seek out, but a lot of the discourse

538
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 4: in the US around reforming Section two thirty, for example,

539
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 4: there's a reason why the far right is so eager

540
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 4: and why Trump was so eager to dismantle two thirty

541
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 4: because it creates more censorship, It prevents safeguards for primarily

542
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 4: smaller websites and language to be accessible online. And it

543
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 4: really won't hurt the large companies because they're so deep

544
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 4: pocketed they'll find ways around this stuff. So we have

545
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 4: to be incredibly careful. It's very nuanced how you deal

546
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 4: with content moderation and with deplatforming. Giant chunks of human

547
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 4: beings that are online without causing major damage. And I

548
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 4: think that's the problem is a lot of this regulation,

549
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 4: like some of the legislation regulation in the U, is

550
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 4: coming in with a hammer as opposed to a scalpel,

551
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 4: and they're just there is just whack the mole. They're

552
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 4: just bashing this stuff back and saying, hey, well we

553
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 4: are we are preventing a lot of this discourse from

554
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 4: happening online. So now childer nursing. But that's actually not

555
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 4: the case. It can actually make children less safe. They

556
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 4: can make LGBTQ lessie. Some just point to one thing

557
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 4: that he use doing that America is looking at doing

558
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 4: is requiring age verification, and that's a huge privacy breach

559
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 4: and it's very dangerous for children and for people in

560
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,479
Speaker 4: marginalized communities to have to give up their identity online

561
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 4: in that way, and it will cause it will cause

562
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 4: people to get hurt.

563
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 3: That seems not good.

564
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: Explain to us a little bit about this, the connection

565
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 1: between Google and YouTube.

566
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 4: Well, one of the things I learned a lot making

567
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 4: the film, though I had done a lot of research

568
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 4: going in and you know, look, this is I guess

569
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 4: kind of a wimpy caveat that this is a giant company.

570
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 3: We love a wimpy caveat.

571
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 4: I'm the king of the whimpy caveat.

572
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 3: It's yeah, yeah, you know, be happy to have it.

573
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 4: Google is a huge company. They do a lot of good.

574
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 4: There's a lot of great people there. I know a

575
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 4: lot of engineers there. I know a lot of people

576
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 4: pretty high up the food chain there that are amazing

577
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 4: people doing great work. So just saying and saying with YouTube,

578
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 4: and you know, we use it all the time in

579
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 4: a way when you're dealing with a platform as vast

580
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 4: as YouTube that is so much more than a social

581
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 4: media platform, so much more than news media, TV, influencers,

582
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 4: culture search, it's all of that stuff. It's going to

583
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 4: do a lot of good, but because it has so

584
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 4: much influences, doing a lot of a lot of harm.

585
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 4: And what I didn't realize going into the cell that

586
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 4: became evident pretty quickly is that it's not a ruse

587
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 4: because it sounds I think I'm unfairly nefarious, but YouTube

588
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 4: is really not a separate company from Google in any

589
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 4: meaningful way. YouTube is really I would argue that Google

590
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 4: YouTube is really Google Media front at. It is really

591
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 4: the platform. It's the reason it's the second most search

592
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 4: and viewed website after Google. Is that they are in

593
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: a sense of package. You know, Google performs it's functions

594
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 4: online and YouTube performs is functions online, but they are

595
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 4: part and parcel of the same function, which is that

596
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 4: they are holding the eyeballs and the attention of more

597
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 4: people on this planet than any other source for all

598
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 4: of recorded human history, all of our information, all of

599
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 4: our media. And I think the implications of Google's direct

600
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 4: relationship and ownership of YouTube is important and important to

601
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 4: underscore and understand why and what it means. And I

602
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 4: think they've gone to great pains to try to to

603
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 4: present a kind of superficial optical idea of two separate entities.

604
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 4: But other than the people that work within the YouTube

605
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 4: you know, the engineers and the basic folks working on

606
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 4: the UI, et cetera, they really are just a part

607
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 4: of Google's media front end and they are run under

608
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 4: the ethos of Google an alphabet.

609
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: So what does that translate to.

610
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 4: It means that as Google grows, which is it is

611
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,239
Speaker 4: growing exponentially, and as it creates more data farms and

612
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 4: more of a collection of the world's data and our

613
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 4: identity and our content, it gives them a leg up.

614
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 4: I would say against any other platform, any other media company,

615
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 4: any other information source, any other search source in a

616
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 4: vast way. So I think it just requires more scrutiny

617
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 4: than they're getting. I think they've been. I think that

618
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 4: people are so overawed by the size of YouTube that

619
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 4: they tend to just forget it exists. Like people will

620
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 4: say to me, well, what about TikTok. The kids, aren't

621
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 4: the kids all on TikTok. I'm like, yeah, but there's like,

622
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 4: there's billions of billions for people to quote Carl Sagan

623
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 4: on on YouTube than there are on TikTok. It's just

624
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 4: not a comparable they're not comparable platforms. And right, so

625
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 4: I think it tends to get overlooked, and you know,

626
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 4: circling back to your regulation point at the top, I

627
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 4: think that also prevents us from putting proper safeguards in place,

628
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 4: because we just sort of throw up our hands and say, well,

629
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 4: it's just another social media platform, and it isn't. It's

630
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 4: really the media front end for the largest tech company

631
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 4: on the planet.

632
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: Right right, right, So, so talk to us about you know,

633
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: this movie, talk about how YouTube is radicalizing people.

634
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 3: How does this happen.

635
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 4: What's interesting is, I would argue, and to be fair

636
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 4: to people who were talking about rabbit hole and you know,

637
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 4: a couple of years ago, there was a point when

638
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 4: the recommender algorithm had first been introduced that it was

639
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 4: causing havoc, and to be fair to YouTube and Google,

640
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 4: they did primarily fix that. It's very difficult to go

641
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 4: on YouTube now the way one used to a few

642
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 4: years ago, and you know, search for fuzzy slippers and

643
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 4: then suddenly be down a rabbit hole with Alex Jones

644
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 4: and you know, Jordan Peterson and Shapiro, you know, with

645
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 4: flat earthers and people talking about the moon landing being fake.

646
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 4: Those videos are all there. And if that's your your deal,

647
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 4: and that's the kind of stuff you dig, well, sure

648
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 4: you can have a field day. But I would argue

649
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 4: that the that the radicalization on YouTube today and what

650
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 4: what made YouTube the number one platform for sending people

651
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 4: to the January sixth insurrection more than any other platform

652
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: is the parasocial component. Is the fact that you were

653
00:31:55,560 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 4: dealing with the very powerful and visceral and ad money

654
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 4: amplified system of looking into a webcam and feeling that

655
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 4: you are having an intimate connection with the person on

656
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 4: the other end of that webcam, who, meanwhile, you don't know,

657
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 4: that person ends up feeling like your best buddy. And

658
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 4: because YouTube is not TikTok and you have you know,

659
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 4: videos that are hours and hours long, that creates an

660
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 4: incredibly strong bond between the influencer or you know, the

661
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 4: person or the people that are talking into that webcam

662
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 4: and the people on the other end. It also has

663
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 4: because of its scale, it has enormous ability for communication

664
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 4: and interconnection. So through the comment section and in other ways,

665
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 4: you can suddenly build an army, which is what happened

666
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 4: on January sixth. So if you take that to you know,

667
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 4: cruising into the twenty twenty four election, what we were

668
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 4: pounding the table and trying to get YouTube to do

669
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 4: for years after the christ Church shooting was deplatform some

670
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 4: of these people and moderate their content better, because while

671
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 4: content moderation is hard, it is absolutely doable, so that,

672
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 4: you know, in fairness to then they booted Stephan Mulinu,

673
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 4: who was causing enormous problem in real world violence.

674
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: That guy is terrible. I shouldn't laugh, but he really

675
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: just the worst.

676
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 4: The Deep platformed Alex Jones who was just you know,

677
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 4: a parodic example of propaganda. But you know, Stephen Crowder

678
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 4: is still there with millions and millions and millions of followers.

679
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 4: And after after the FBI went down to Marl Largo

680
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 4: and you know, knocked on Trump's bathroom door to try

681
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 4: to get some of the classified documents back, Crowder went

682
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: on YouTube and said to his millions of followers that

683
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 4: they should take up arms and civil war. And that's

684
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 4: you know, that's a heavily funded, probably dark money funded

685
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 4: channel with enormous ad value to YouTube that's not going

686
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 4: to get deep platform. That's causing real world violence. So

687
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 4: that's how people get radicalized, it's not I would really

688
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 4: would love for the narrative to jump off this algorithm speak,

689
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 4: which is which just sounds like magic box stuff and

690
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 4: turns everybody's brains to jello, and just look at this

691
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 4: as as a business issue, you know, with then they're

692
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 4: just human business decisions. If YouTube is going to get

693
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 4: add money off of platforming people that are radicalizing you know,

694
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 4: their followers, then they're not going to be platform them.

695
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 4: Then people are going to get hurt. And that's got

696
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 4: nothing to do with algorithms or technology, that's just business.

697
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 6: So Alex, you tell so many great stories in this documentary.

698
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,959
Speaker 6: I couldn't help but wonder what was on the cutting

699
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 6: room for if any thing really broke your heart to cut.

700
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 4: We had more of the real world violence, first person

701
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 4: shooters that were live streaming killings on YouTube, things like that.

702
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 4: To be honest with you, it didn't break my heart

703
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 4: because I mean, you know, I wanted to jump out

704
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 4: in the edit room a window, right, So it's like,

705
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 4: it's like, I get it. I was like, if I

706
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 4: can't deal with this, like, how's an audience going to

707
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 4: want to see? So there was that aspect, and there

708
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 4: was really wanted to tell a very specific narrative story

709
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 4: around a core group of characters, Caleb, Kine, Natalie, when Ryan,

710
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 4: Ryan's Toylet like, who are these human beings? What are

711
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 4: their relationships to each other? And so we focused more

712
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 4: on the really critical, game changing watershed moments that made

713
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 4: history in those ways in gamer Gate, the christ Church shooting,

714
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 4: things like that, and so a lot of the incidental

715
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 4: stuff didn't happen. You could make eighty movies out of YouTube,

716
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 4: which is so vast. You can make an influencer movie.

717
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 4: You could make a Kids on the Internet movie. You

718
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: could make a just a Beltway What's going on in

719
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 4: DC with these guys movie, But we were at the

720
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 4: end of the day very much focused on these on

721
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 4: these core characters in their story.

722
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just incredible stuff. We really appreciate you

723
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: coming on. I hope you'll come back.

724
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 4: Oh, I'd love to you. Yeah, I love you, and

725
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 4: it's great to be here.

726
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,479
Speaker 1: Hi, it's Mollie and I am wildly excited that for

727
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: the first time, Fast Politics, the show you're listening to

728
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: right now, is going to have merch for sale over

729
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: at shop dot Fast Politicspod dot com.

730
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 3: You can now buy shirts.

731
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: Hats, hoodies, and toe bags with our incredible designs. We've

732
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: heard your cries to spread the word about our podcast

733
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: and get a tow bag with my adorable Leo the

734
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: Rescue Puppy on it. And now you can grab this

735
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: merchandise only at shop dot Fastpoliticspod dot com.

736
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: Thanks for your support.

737
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: Marie Brenner is an author, investigative journalist and writer at

738
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: large from Fanny Fair. Celeste Hedley is a journalist and

739
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: author and the host of Big Sugar. Welcome to Fastpolitics,

740
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: Celeste and also Marie Brenner.

741
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 7: Thanks for having us.

742
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 5: Thank you for having us, Mollie.

743
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: So tell me about how big Sugar came to be.

744
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: Whoever wants to start is fine.

745
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 5: Well, the extraordinary story begins with a lunch where I

746
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 5: was talking to a head of a great public interest

747
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 5: foundation and I said, tell me about your most riveting case.

748
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 5: This was nineteen ninety nine, and she said, there are

749
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 5: two lawyers fighting the most powerful sugar interests in the

750
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 5: country right now in South Florida, and you have got

751
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 5: to get down to West Palm Beach, take a forty

752
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 5: five minute drive out to the sugarcane country and meet

753
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 5: these extraordinary public interest lawyers who are trying to stop

754
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 5: slave labor essentially in the fields that belonged to two

755
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 5: powerful brothers called Alfie and Peppie von hul And that

756
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 5: was the beginning of the beginning.

757
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 3: So, Celeste, how'd you get involved in this?

758
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 7: I got involved because I was asked, do you want

759
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 7: to investigate the story and bring this up to date.

760
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 7: We're working with Marie and we want to update this

761
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 7: in time for the reconsideration of the Farm Bill and

762
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 7: make people aware that all of these things that Marie

763
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 7: reported on all those years ago are still happening now,

764
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 7: if they're not worse at this point. It took about

765
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 7: ten minutes for me to realize that they were correct.

766
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 7: The things that Marie was writing about, in terms of

767
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 7: the treatment of labor, the relationship of capitalism to inequality,

768
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 7: the relationship of corporations to our environment, all of those

769
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 7: things are perhaps worse than they were when Marie's article

770
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 7: appeared in Vanity Fair. So yeah, I immediately jumped on it.

771
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 1: So, Marie, when you wrote this article in Vanny Fair,

772
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: what were the sort of top lines that you were

773
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: so shocked by?

774
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 5: For me, personality is always the key to history, and

775
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 5: I was so shocked by the absolute, massive extent of

776
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 5: sugar what it has been in American politics. Remember this

777
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 5: was the year nineteen ninety nine, two thousand, when Gore

778
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 5: was running for president. You had the Bush by Gore fight.

779
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 5: And here you had in South Florida, in Miami and

780
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 5: Palm Beach, and in this tiny little town called Belglade

781
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 5: where this alleged slave almost slave labor shorting of the

782
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 5: Jamaican workers that had come in to farm the fun

783
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 5: Houl sugar plantations for years. You know, we're all based

784
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 5: and it was you know when in retrospect, what was

785
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 5: going on in nineteen ninety nine was an absolute canary

786
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 5: in the coal mine for where we are now in

787
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 5: South Florida politics. Because these two brothers that you always

788
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 5: see in the magazines, Peppi and Alfi fun Houl, one

789
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 5: gave millions to the Republican Party, the other gave millions

790
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 5: to the Democratic Party. And for that, you know, it

791
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 5: was believed by many that they were getting all kinds

792
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 5: of favors in terms of sugar subsidies. And Celesti you

793
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 5: did so much great research on this and really brought

794
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 5: it up to date.

795
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,919
Speaker 2: But this company controls.

796
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 3: Forty percent of sugar in America?

797
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: Is that the number?

798
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:17,959
Speaker 5: Yeah?

799
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 7: I think so it tages all the time depending on sales,

800
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 7: et cetera.

801
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 3: But yes, but their.

802
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 5: Influence extended right down to the final Supreme Court you

803
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 5: know Bush v.

804
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: Gore fight.

805
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 5: So there was one of their lawyers just sitting in

806
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 5: seat number two. And you know when when Bush v.

807
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 5: Gore was argued, So catch an extraordinary example of corporate bigfooting.

808
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 5: And for me, you know, it was just so tragic

809
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 5: to see these incredibly educated Harvard law Yale law lawyers

810
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 5: who had just set their caps on this, you know,

811
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 5: trying to get fairness for these hundreds and hundreds and

812
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 5: hundreds of Jamaican workers who were really paid about half

813
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 5: what they should have been paid. And you know, they're

814
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 5: at the fond goals with their massive yachts and their

815
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 5: massive houses in the society pages, you know, just allowing

816
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 5: this to go on. It's really how they made their

817
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 5: money in America.

818
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that is such a crazy story. So

819
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 3: how has it stayed the same or gotten worse a thing?

820
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 7: It's gotten worse in the same way that we see

821
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 7: throughout corporate America. Inequality has gotten worse. Right, A few

822
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 7: things have changed that since the case ended, most if

823
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 7: not all, of US sugar production has been mechanized. They

824
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 7: aren't harvesting sugar using machetes in the US anymore. It

825
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 7: is being harvested by hand in many places throughout the world. However,

826
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 7: sugar is still rife, fetaled, rife with wage slavery throughout

827
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 7: the world. The industry itself. It is still environmentally detrimental,

828
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 7: you know. And we drove down to Florida, went to

829
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 7: one of the fields that they had set on fighter

830
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 7: which is what they do after the sugar is harvested.

831
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 3: Jesus why it's the most effective way.

832
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 7: You don't have to All you have to do is

833
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 7: shut the cane on fire and then you're ready to

834
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 7: replant it the next season. Right, And we parked in

835
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 7: the parking lot of an elementary school, which is right

836
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 7: next door to this cane field, and you saw all

837
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 7: the critters, the frogs and the little the bunnies and

838
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 7: creators trying running away from the flames. And I step

839
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 7: out of the car and I was covered in ash,

840
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 7: this greasy, thick ash. And I looked to my right

841
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 7: and the playground, all of the slides and the playground

842
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 7: equipment is also covered in this ash. All of the

843
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 7: things that Marie was talking about in terms of the

844
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 7: effect of the impact on the environment, the impact on neighborhoods,

845
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 7: you know, but you go to this town where generations

846
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 7: of workers have been employed by the sugar industry, and

847
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 7: we're talking about generations of poverty, and you can see

848
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 7: what that does to a community when they're relying on

849
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 7: these jobs in order to survive.

850
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 3: It's devastating.

851
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 7: And then you drive just down the road to mar

852
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,439
Speaker 7: A Lago and up the road from there is where

853
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 7: Alfi von hul lives, and behind his multi multi million

854
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 7: dollar house is his enormous yacht bobbing in the waters.

855
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 7: And despite our best efforts, we were never able to

856
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 7: speak to either of the fund rules. And we tried.

857
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 7: There's a long montage in the podcast of our producers

858
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 7: calling and calling I hung out outside their building. We

859
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 7: even tried to just get to the receptionist to hand

860
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 7: them the letter. We couldn't even get to the front

861
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,439
Speaker 7: desk of the company. Like, if you are rich enough

862
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 7: in this country, you don't have to answer questions.

863
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 3: You don't have to.

864
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 7: Answer for the decisions that you make, because you can

865
00:43:55,120 --> 00:44:00,399
Speaker 7: completely shelter yourself behind enough layers of other people that

866
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 7: you can stay far away from anybody who wants to

867
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 7: make you accountable for the decisions you make, the things

868
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 7: that you do, the wealth you accrue.

869
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: Right, tell us a little bit about this farm bell,

870
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: either of you, and what it could do to Big Sugar.

871
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 7: Well, so the farm bell only comes up every five years,

872
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 7: So phone me. Just go back a little bit in history,

873
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 7: the farm bill, of course began. The sugar program part

874
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 7: of it, of course, began after in World War two,

875
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 7: and there was a real concern that the United States

876
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 7: didn't want to have.

877
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 3: To rely on other countries for its sugar, right.

878
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 7: We wanted to make sure that we always had enough

879
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 7: sugar here in the United States growing, and so they

880
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 7: incentivized it. They may guarantees that the cost of sugar

881
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 7: would never fall blow out a certain amount price, which

882
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 7: basically is just subsidizing the growth of sugar. Obviously, we

883
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 7: don't actually need that. It's not like sugar is not

884
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 7: a profitable commodity. We don't have to incentivize people to

885
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 7: grow sugar. We're not talking about kale, but it's worth

886
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 7: billions and billions of dollars. The Cato Institute calls it

887
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 7: a candy coated cartel at this point. And these are

888
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 7: a very small number of companies. We're not talking about

889
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 7: a really diverse group of companies. We're talking about it

890
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 7: very small number who get billions of dollars of corporate welfare. Now,

891
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 7: the thing is is that not only they're getting billions

892
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 7: of dollars subsidies, but also sugar in through the farm bill.

893
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 7: The sugar United States is more expensive here than it

894
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 7: is in almost any other industrialization. So they're getting billions

895
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 7: and taxpayer dollars from the farm bill. Then they're getting

896
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 7: a lot more because we pay more when we could

897
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 7: go to the grocery store. Then there's not a lot

898
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:50,879
Speaker 7: of environmental regulations forcing them to comply expensively with environmental regulations.

899
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 7: The US taxpayer is having to comply with those in order,

900
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 7: you know, the Everglades in other areas, those are other

901
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 7: place of which the US taxpayer is having to pay

902
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 7: for the sugar industry. And in terms of labor, you know,

903
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 7: we have to pay for the people who are not

904
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 7: perhaps making enough to come up to a certain living standard.

905
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 7: So the US taxpayer is really really paying a lot

906
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 7: for the sugar habits. And that doesn't even that doesn't

907
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 7: even include healthcare costs, because for a very very long time,

908
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 7: the sugar industry got itself involved in the science behind

909
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 7: what caused obesity, what caused cardiovascular problems, what caused heart disease,

910
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 7: to sort of mask or downplay the relationship between sugar

911
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 7: and all of those various related health problems, which probably

912
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 7: has a very high cost when it comes to our

913
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 7: hospitals and life expectancy and various problems in that place

914
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 7: as well.

915
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 5: So it's super expensive. So on the human levels, I mean,

916
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 5: what Celeste says is so riveting. But dial this back

917
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 5: now to nineteen ninety nine and imagine a twenty two

918
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 5: four year old just out of Yale Law School named

919
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 5: Sarah Cleveland going to Belglade, Florida for the first time

920
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 5: to work on this fellowship at this rural public interest

921
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 5: law a migrant legal project, and meeting her future husband,

922
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 5: Edward Tuttenham, a romantic, idealistic, optimistic, Harvard Law School educated lawyer.

923
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 5: And those two along with several other lawyers who are

924
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 5: you know, They've given their life to fighting the sugar industry,

925
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 5: all of them, Celeste interviewed for the podcast Imagine this drama.

926
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 5: It is a you know, what I walked into was

927
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 5: this extraordinary case that had dragged on for over several

928
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 5: years even at that period, and was in its kind

929
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 5: of final stages, and this love story that was going

930
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:01,879
Speaker 5: on at the same time, and the impossibility of these lawyers,

931
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 5: with their backpacks and their ideals going against the fan

932
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 5: Houle Enterprise. ALFI Fonhull was able to get then President

933
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 5: Bill Clinton on the telephone to badger a tugger policy

934
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 5: at a moment of intimacy he was having with Monaco

935
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 5: No Yes, and this was famously talked about. Now this again,

936
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 5: it's all on the podcast. This was famously when he

937
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 5: went and mispronounced Alfi Fought Bull's name as mister Fon

938
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 5: Jewel was you know, hello, miss Jewel on the time.

939
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 5: But the power of these guys, that's so insane. This

940
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 5: all came out later and so this is what I

941
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 5: walked into in nineteen ninety nine. It was one of

942
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 5: the most riveting stories of corporate America. There was one

943
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 5: moment in the courtroom, and we talk about this in

944
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 5: the podcast too. There was one moment in the court

945
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 5: where they were in their final stages. It was the

946
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 5: closing arguments, and I walk in and I see, you know,

947
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 5: these incredibly educated lawyers who just, you know, like they're

948
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 5: just trying to get these workers the money that they deserve.

949
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 5: And they all are literally carrying their backpacks and they're

950
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 5: in their chinos, and they're on one side and there's

951
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 5: only about four or five, maybe six of them, and

952
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 5: then on the other side, the rows are packed with

953
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 5: these incredibly elegant du Bean American stiletto'keel wearing you know,

954
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 5: beautifully dressed wommen. Then they're you know, these incredibly attractive

955
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 5: and high power lawyers. And then in the midst of

956
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 5: all of this, you know, they bring in an African

957
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,879
Speaker 5: American lawyer named Willie Gary who flies in, who's been

958
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 5: brought in to help represent them, and he flies in

959
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 5: on his own plane. What's it called, Celeste, The Wings

960
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 5: of Glory or the Going Off that it was one

961
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 5: of the most American of epics of the you know,

962
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 5: of you know, the Right against Might, you know, David

963
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 5: against Goliath and there you go, you know, like they

964
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 5: lost and the farm workers who had somehow managed to

965
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 5: stay in America, these Jamaicans. Celeste interviewed several of them

966
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 5: for the podcast, and I had interviewed them, you know,

967
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 5: twenty years ago, and they were so compelling about you know,

968
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 5: literally how they were treated, how they were like they

969
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 5: couldn't get into America without having their hands checked, you know,

970
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 5: almost like it was like slave trade and that work

971
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 5: is so backbreaking. I mean, Celeste, you were so good

972
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 5: talking about that in the podcast.

973
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 3: Well, these men had such stories that sell Tella. It's

974
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 3: about some of those stories.

975
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 7: What surprised me with some of them, was they They

976
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 7: would talk about these things happening with absolutely just monotone inflection,

977
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 7: you know, they would say and then you know, and

978
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 7: then even he took the sheddy and I would look

979
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 7: over and he had cut off his finger, and so

980
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 7: we then you know, he shouted out and he screamed

981
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 7: in the mantel, and I would be like, I'm sorry,

982
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 7: go back, sorry what happened. But you know that, oh,

983
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 7: those years, those months of that was how it was treated.

984
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 7: That those kinds of injuries were part of the job,

985
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 7: and so that's how they had to cope. That's the

986
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 7: kind of sort of disengagement from suffering they had to

987
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 7: learn in order to survive those jobs. And they would

988
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 7: write these letters home to their families, and many of

989
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 7: them didn't include any of those details in those letters

990
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 7: because the people at home in Jamaica were counting on

991
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 7: even the small amount of money they were sending home,

992
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 7: and they didn't want them to know what they were

993
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 7: suffering in order to get send that money back. You know,

994
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 7: their stories were just you know, you just can't hear

995
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 7: their stories without you know, feeling moved. And then the

996
00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 7: fact that especially the von RULs, who had so much

997
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 7: these Cuban princes who lost everything, but they lost palaces

998
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 7: when Pastro took over. Right, these are not in any case. Yes,

999
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 7: Alfi was kidnapped at one point by Castro's man and

1000
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 7: held at gunpoint. His father had gotten out before, and

1001
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 7: he Alphie at age eighteen or seventeen or ninety something

1002
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 7: is in college, was left to run the sugar companies

1003
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 7: before he led. But you know what was interesting, I

1004
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 7: too chased the fond Buls for a long time that

1005
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 7: they finally did agree to be interviewed because they wanted

1006
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 7: to get their side of the story out. And at

1007
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 7: one point I asked, Alfi, fund whichever, consider setting up

1008
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 7: an education fund for the children of these Jamaican workers.

1009
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's a good idea.

1010
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 5: You set up any kind of a restitution fund, even

1011
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 5: though you're going to win this case. You know, meanwhile,

1012
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 5: you know they're sitting on this hundreds and hundreds of

1013
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 5: millions of dollars. He couldn't even imagine the question. He said,

1014
00:52:58,800 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 5: why would.

1015
00:52:59,239 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 2: I do that?

1016
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 3: And I said, because it's.

1017
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 5: Probably the right thing to do, and he said, no,

1018
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 5: we've given them an opportunity to work in America and

1019
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 5: again as soles said, it was a kind of preview

1020
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 5: of the astonishing disparity that we are living now in

1021
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 5: this country.

1022
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean incredible stuff.

1023
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 1: Tell me one last thing that why you should listen

1024
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: to this podcast.

1025
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 3: And okay, so I'll tell you one last thing. Look,

1026
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 3: we're all journalists.

1027
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 7: We know that there's a lot of really important things

1028
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 7: that people don't have time to think about, or learn

1029
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:34,720
Speaker 7: about or be educated about.

1030
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 4: Right.

1031
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 7: We know that everybody can't know stuff about everything they

1032
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 7: probably should know about.

1033
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 3: But every once in a while, things bubble.

1034
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,879
Speaker 7: Up that you have to pay attention to, and as

1035
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 7: journalists we try to point those things out and say, Okay,

1036
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 7: it's time. It's time to think time to think about

1037
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 7: climate change, it's time to think about racism.

1038
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 3: Now's time.

1039
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 7: This is the time the farm bills up. It only

1040
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 7: comes up once every five years, so it's time.

1041
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 3: This is that moment.

1042
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 7: When you really do have to listen in and learn

1043
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 7: about what this does. Learn about the sugar industry, learn

1044
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 7: about how that sugar gets to your table and into

1045
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 7: your coffee or your tea, and understand how this works

1046
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 7: so that you could call you your representatives and your

1047
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 7: senator and take some action.

1048
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 5: The legal drama, rivals, anything out of a John Grisham novel,

1049
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 5: I would say, is that not quite a celibate clent.

1050
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 5: It's a riproaring yarn of American power and politics and

1051
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 5: so dramatic. And again, Celeste, you know you have done

1052
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 5: such great reporting on the lawyers themselves and the battles

1053
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 5: between them that you know went on that just for

1054
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 5: the sake of sheer summer entertainment.

1055
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 2: It is a great, great story.

1056
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:52,720
Speaker 3: It is. It's this started out as a great story

1057
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 3: with Murray. It's still a great story now.

1058
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: So I think the top line is listen to the

1059
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: podcast Big Sugar during your vac and then call your

1060
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: rep and your Senator and talk to.

1061
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 3: Them about the farm bill and subsidies for billionaires. It's

1062
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 3: time to end that. Yeah, thanks to both of you.

1063
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 3: Thanks in a moment perfectly Jesse Cannon Milli Jong Fast.

1064
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 6: Trump is trucing it up, which is always ironic because

1065
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 6: he's not usually saying anything that's true when he does that.

1066
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: We've been on vacation for a week, and during that time,

1067
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: Trump is at another set of indictments. He's taken to

1068
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: the social media site that he is stuck on because

1069
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: he made a deal with them, and he has continually

1070
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: been truthing, and he's threatened the judge, he has threatened

1071
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: the witnesses, and he has asked for a change of venue,

1072
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,320
Speaker 1: as one does with all caps.

1073
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,479
Speaker 3: That's not how any of this is supposed to work.

1074
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 1: And for that, our former president number forty five in

1075
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: all caps, trucing away is our moment of fuck Ray.

1076
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1077
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1078
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1079
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1080
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.