WEBVTT - The Right (and Wrong) Way to Quit Your Job 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.200 From executive search to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.880 succession planning. Corn Fairy can help you realize the full 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.879 potential of your people so you can take your business 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.560 where it wants to go up. Learn more at corn 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:17.120 Ferry dot com. Slash up. Leaving a job is kind 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.560 of like breaking up with someone. There's really no great 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.000 way to do it, but maybe there are a few 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:36.479 ways that can help soften the blow. You're listening to 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:39.000 game Plan. My name is Sam Grobart. I am a 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.440 writer at Bloomberg business Week magazine, and I'm Rebecca Greenfield, 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.960 a reporter at Bloomberg where I cover the workplace. So, Becca, 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.880 you've left some workplaces before. Yes, I've left to workplaces 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:52.479 and how did they go for you? I think it 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:54.640 could have been better. It's just you don't know what 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:59.520 you're doing at all? Is it's really delicate situation, and 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:04.640 especially when you're young, you have no idea what you're doing. 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.039 What would you say looking back on the two occasions 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:10.240 that you've left a job, what would be the main 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.480 thing you would have done differently? Well, I've tried to 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:14.800 do things differently. I think the hardest part is when 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.080 you have that offer for your new job, and what 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.240 do you do with it. My first time, I was 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:23.920 very I was confused. I didn't know what to do. 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:25.880 I didn't know the best way to handle it. So 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.399 I went to my boss with those exact feelings, and 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.360 obviously that conversation did not go great for me. Right, 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.520 I think there is an instinct to be overly communicative, 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.440 like you're talking to a friend and you're not talking 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.720 about mistaking the relationship, well, because that was the relationship 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:43.440 you had up until that point, and you have to 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.800 realize that you're the one who is now introducing a 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.040 threat to that relationship, perhaps an ultimate threat to that relationship, 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.600 because you're talking about ending it right, And I don't know. 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:56.440 I was worried about making people feel bad and that's 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.840 not what got to be professional exactly. So then this 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:01.600 second time I went to go leave a job, I 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.960 was like more stone cold about it. But then that 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:08.160 also wasn't appreciated. Something happened to me years ago one 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:10.320 of the many jobs that I've left. I thought the 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:12.880 thing to do is to be super clear cut. Yeah, 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:14.440 And then it turned out that I sort of had 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.399 offended my boss because I didn't even explain the fact 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:19.639 that I had this amazing new opportunity which he then 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.560 later learned about and was like, Oh, if you had 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.679 just told me that, I would have been like, that's 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:26.519 wonderful for you. I'm very happy. Instead you were like, 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.799 I'm out of here, right. And I think that attitude 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.120 that you're talking about, I mean, it's lucky that your 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.359 boss said that, but it is more common than it 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.799 used to be. I wrote the story maybe a year 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.079 or so ago about the rise of the boomerang employee, 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:41.799 where it's a lot more acceptable now to leave a 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:43.560 job and come back to a job. And I think 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.720 that's because employers realize, you know, they're not as obsessed 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:52.200 with loyalty and you screwed me, so I'm never hiring 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.919 you again. Like they understand you've got a better opportunity 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.239 and maybe one day you'll come back with even more 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.560 knowledge right to benefit the company in an entirely new way. 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.160 I mean, the truth is that we are now. And 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.640 here's a little data point. You know, more people are 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.560 changing jobs leaving jobs in than they have since two 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:14.120 thousand eight, and that's according to the Labor Department. And 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.360 that seems to be related to of course, and improving 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.800 economy and a lot more mobility and opportunities. So this 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.840 is going to happen more and more. It's just a 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:26.040 question of how do you manage it? Yeah, and it's 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.520 really confusing and delicate, and maybe there is no exact way. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:30.960 I mean that, Yeah, there's no way to break up 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:33.359 with somebody and not hurt their feelings. I think that's 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.760 the thing is, like in a breakup, you have to 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.240 kind of come to terms with the fact that you're 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:40.760 going to hurt someone and it maybe for the right 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.680 reason because staying there would hurt both of you more 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.480 later or would hurt you and frankly, you have to 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.920 kind of look out for yourself, but you have to 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:54.280 be willing to take on that role of being the spoiler. Um. Well, 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.480 like you know obviously, Becca, we're very happy here. Yeah, 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.080 I will never quit a job again. I'm not going anywhere. 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.800 So we can't speak about it, but we do have 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.800 somebody who we're going to be talking to, Rayhan Hermancy, 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.920 who is actually leaving a job basically as we speak. 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.280 And full disclosure, I worked with Rayhon at one job 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.040 that both of us have since left, and we're friends 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:21.560 and she has left many jobs, and I looked at 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:23.599 her as a stage and it's sort of a guide 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.479 on breakups, professional breakups. So we're going to talk to 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:35.479 her in a minute. We're here with Rayhon Harmancy, the 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:39.599 former editor in chief of Atlas Obscura. Rayhan, thank you 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:42.240 for joining us today. Thank you, guys, and tell us 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.520 a little bit about how long you've been the former 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.360 editor in chief of Atlas Obscura. Um, I actually am 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.080 still at Atlas Obscura for the next week or so. 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.640 Do they know you're here? Have you told them yet 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.880 to find out? This is like when Rudy Giuliani like 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:04.080 divorced his wife by in your press conference, Guys, Rudy 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:09.719 always um no, I I did in fact give notice, 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.080 so it won't be a total surprise. Um. So we're 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:14.960 having you on because you just gave notice and you're 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:16.840 going to leave a job. But I also know that 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.960 you have left jobs before. How many jobs have you left? 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.040 Oh man, I actually was counting on my way here. 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.240 I believe I have left seven jobs on good terms, 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:29.559 on good terms, all in good terms, and you're always 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.200 able to get another job, leading me to believe that 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.039 you're leaving on your terms. And people aren't saying, don't 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.960 hire this person. I mean, I hope. So I think that, 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:41.839 as you guys know, media is a tumultuous business. In 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:44.800 so I think a lot of people are leaving, or 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.640 have leaving, or have left jobs. But I realize I've 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:53.120 left a lot of jobs. So we're interested in the 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.480 tactics that you have related to all parts of this 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:00.840 a game pan. So maybe from like when you know 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:02.920 that you want to leave a job, but you haven't 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.240 quite found a new job yet, how do you stay 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.000 interested in your current job? This is something I've given 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.719 a lot of that too. Obviously for me personally, all 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.720 of these jobs and new jobs came about in different ways, 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:20.120 but I always end up applying like a romantic relationship 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.039 model to this. When you know, you kind of know, 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.800 and then when you start contemplating actually that conversation, it 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.080 is very stressful. So you are currently in this sort 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.960 of senior week of a job, right you You've given notice, 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.000 but you haven't quite left yet. How are you feeling 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.880 in this particular phantom zone. I'm feeling sort of sad. 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.520 I love Atlas Obscura, and I know that it will 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.160 continue to do great things without me, but I'm also 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.200 sort of stressed because there's there's a lot of work 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.839 to be done, so you're you're not checked out, which 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:56.920 is definitely what I've done, and I guess that's bad. 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.479 I mean, I am currently with you guys, not in 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.000 the office, so one might argue I'm checked out, but 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.000 I don't think so. I think that unlike romantic relationship, 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.240 you actually do have to work until the last minute. Rayhan, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:10.160 tell me a little bit about how you conduct a 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.960 job search while continuing to have a job. Are there 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.320 any things you sort of make sure you do or 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.080 don't do for your own sort of protection or benefit. Well, 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:21.640 I mean, I want to make clear that I've been 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.600 lucky enough to have been approached for jobs, so it's 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.560 not always that you're conducting a job search. It's more 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:32.560 that you're living in the world and you know, having conversations. 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:34.560 So I mean, I think that there are people leave 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:36.520 jobs for all different kinds of reasons, and I think 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.840 that if you're conducting a job search while you're still 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.320 at work, I mean, I would advise that you be 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.040 sort of quiet about it. You are talking about that, 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.880 Sam and I about how you definitely know people or 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.400 you were that person who you're like, yeah, I have 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.480 a lead on this job, and you tell your coworker 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:56.560 and you just get really excited about it because you 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.960 think they're your friend, and it's just a really bad idea. 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:02.240 You have to be careful who you tell about this 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.480 sort of thing, right, Yeah, I think there's a lot 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.480 of etiquette questions around when you tell your boss that 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.240 you have been thinking about other jobs, been talking to 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.280 other people, or you just give notice when you have 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:16.600 like a job offer you've signed. I think there's a 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.720 lot of gray areas there. But I do remember from 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:21.680 a time when Becca and I worked together a fast 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.160 company someone telling me that once you tell a boss 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.040 that you have a job offer, there's like some kind 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.000 of research where says that, like, the outcomes are are bad. 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:33.160 Even if you stay at the job, like you are 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.720 more likely to leave within a year after having sort 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.000 of broken that seal of saying I don't want to 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:40.679 be here, I don't want to I cheated on your 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.840 I'm looking around, You're not my one and only kind 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.800 of like a relationship, kind of like a relationship. Yeah, 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.400 I've I've struggled with this. I've only left a couple 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.880 of jobs. But I have done the tactic of I'm 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.800 breaking up with you, I'm leaving, and my boss didn't 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.360 like that approach, but I had been burned before with 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:02.959 the oh, I have an offer, I'm not sure which 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.679 I do convinced me to stay. Neither of those tactics 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.320 worked for me. Yeah, I think it's super tricky. I've 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:14.280 never personally leveraged a job offer for more money at 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.319 a current employer. I know other people that have, and 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:19.880 I think that's great, and I think that a lot 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.560 of times honesty is the best policy. But you have 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.360 to be ready for all possible outcomes. Once you start 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:27.560 broaching that conversation, you have to be ready to take 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:31.640 that job that you're using as a negotiating Definitely, as 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:33.480 they may turn around and go sounds like a great job, 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:35.880 you should go do it completely. And I when I've 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.160 had experience managing people who have had job offers, you know, like, 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.280 I don't get mad at them, but it is, uh, 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.000 it is a weird feeling that makes you sort of 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.640 you can't help but think that maybe they won't take 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.120 this offer, but they'll take another one. Ray Han, I 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:51.600 want to ask you something because I was just reading 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.920 an article recently in the paper about a situation where 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.760 somebody was offered a new job, went and told their 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.120 current employer, gave their notice, and then it turned out 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:05.000 that the offer they had been given was rescinded because 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.360 it went up the chain and some somebody else, some executive, said, oh, no, 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:10.840 we're not actually hiring for that position. Do you have 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.760 any rules about when you actually give your notice? Oh 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.480 that sounds like a bad situation. Um, yeah, I mean 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.640 I think you have to have a firm offer in writing, 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.040 don't exchange a few like Twitter direct messages and then 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.480 like tell your boss about a job offer. You know, 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.400 I think just approaching that conversation is so stressful. I 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.840 think you should go into it with an idea of 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:34.880 what you want the outcome to be, you know, Like 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.960 I wouldn't say, go fishing telling employer you have a 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.160 job offer, like haven't writing know that there's at least 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:43.560 a great chance you want to take it and steer 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.480 the conversation. Maybe. Yeah, that was my problem in my 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.760 first trying to leave a job. Not knowing what I 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.640 was doing was the problem. Really, I think being firm 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:54.679 and knowing what you want is the best way to 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.120 go into the conversation. But when you're like twenty four 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.240 and have no idea how to live in the world, 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.120 you can't do that. Apparently, Well, it's really hard. I mean, 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.480 I think sometimes you're not sure what you want to 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.080 do and you almost want to ask your boss for advice. 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.559 But that is not a time you asked your boss 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.840 for advice. Up happens when the power and potential of 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.480 every employee and leader in your workforce is released, and 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.079 corn Fairy can get you there by aligning your people 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:24.280 to your strategy, attracting, developing, engaging, and rewarding them to 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.440 reach new heights. With corn Ferry, you get a partner 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:31.079 who truly understands people, leadership, and the new landscape of work, 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.719 a partner who knows how to take your business up. 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.640 Learn more at corn Ferry dot com. Slash up to 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.400 continue your relationship metaphor a little bit. I mean, I 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.040 feel like the conversation you're going to have with your 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:48.480 current employer requires a certain kind of steel if you 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.000 will within you same way that if you're going to 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.240 break up with someone. In both cases, you are very 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:56.559 well aware that you are in one way or another 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:01.040 harming someone or causing them display sure, but you have 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.520 to sort of make your peace with it because it's 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.240 better for you to be doing what you're doing. And yes, 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:08.560 there are going to be consequences, some of which are 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.960 going to be negative for other people. But that's just 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.480 the way this whole sort of system works. Yeah, I mean, 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:16.760 no matter how you I mean, I guess it does 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:18.760 depend on how you feel about your employee. But you're 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.880 severing a relationship, and most of the time, you know 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.719 you want to sever it in like the sort of 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.280 cleanest possible way. And so it's really if you go 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.240 into the conversation being like, I don't know, like maybe 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.520 I'll take the job, you're not doing anybody any favors. 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:39.520 That's very real in relationships too. I think we I 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.120 think we've all experienced then they're good. So that is 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.079 it does continue to be awkward though, once you've decided 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.400 to take a job, because most people do give some 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.320 form of notice, like two weeks notice. I mean, like, 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.480 and then you're still working at the job for two weeks, 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.240 and I'm first of all wondering should we still be 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.400 doing two weeks notice? Tick of a movie, by the way, 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.079 two weeks I obviously don't get your reference as usual. Okay, 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.280 that's not that old. Oh wait, I do remember that 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.440 I thought you were alive when that movie came out. Yeah, 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.480 but yeah, it's two weeks notice useful anymore. That's a 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.800 really good question. I remember my first the first you guys, 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.920 take you back in time. The first time I left 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:21.840 a job. I was working in a newspaper I had 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.840 worked for for seven years, and I was just in 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.320 my young, deluded brain. For some reason, I was so 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:30.560 scared to give notice. Like they were doing rounds after 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.280 rounds of layoffs. I'm sure they were like reassured that 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.480 I wanted to leave, but I was very upset and 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.320 like didn't know what to say and how to say goodbye. Um. 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:42.800 So I was like, I can work here for six 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.440 more weeks, and my boss at the time was like, 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:47.960 well great, I mean we need you around. You're the 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:51.160 youngest love was paid employee here, so no need to 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.160 rush out. And then I worked. I was in a union, 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.600 and according to union rules, though I had to, I 0:13:57.600 --> 0:13:59.720 gave notice on like a Tuesday, and then I got 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:01.240 a no the next day. There's like if you're not 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.880 out by Friday, you're going to not get your pension, 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.920 which or ira A or some union front of money 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.520 I didn't really know existed. So then I suddenly went 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:13.199 from being like, oh, I'll have like a long goodbye 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:15.520 to like, you have three days to pack up your 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.320 stuff and you've worked here for seven years. But in retrospect, 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.000 that was the best possible outcome, right, it's kind of 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.120 good to make the clean break, don't you think? Yes? 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.600 I think that, Like when you again you think maybe 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:28.400 I don't know people do I would do things out 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.120 of guilt a lot, So like, maybe out of guilt, 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.160 I'll be like, I'll stay as long as you need 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.240 me to stay. But the truth is, I think two 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:38.160 weeks is it's way enough time to tie things up 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.080 unless you have a very specific project. Yeah, And I 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.000 don't know what you're doing by giving them two more 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.240 weeks of your time. Really, I don't know. You're not 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.720 really helping and it's just awkward, which brings me to 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.160 my next question, which is, how do you tell people 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.520 you're leaving? And when do you tell them you're leaving 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.560 besides for your boss, who obviously you need to tell. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:02.320 Great question, Becca, this is thing that you're not giving 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.520 notice once at a job, you actually have to give notice, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.360 like as many times as you need to to tell 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.400 the people around you, and like the way you want 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.880 to tell them. So yeah, so I mean, so I 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.000 give notice to your boss first. Do not let your 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.160 boss here about it from anybody else. I think that 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.160 is a really bad look. So tell your boss first, 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.560 get that conversation out of the way, and then decide 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.880 who needs to be told in person and who needs 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.640 to be told in a group. Because once the information 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.600 is released, it really wants to be free, and it 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:35.520 wants to be free over email, and I wants to 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.320 be free over slack, and it wants to be free 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.920 in any possible way. So I feel like there's a 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.080 little bit of a race after you give noticed your 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.480 boss to then start telling other people in a way 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:47.840 that is not too harsh or weird. Yeah. I don't 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.120 know how many times I have this is horrible gossiped 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:55.120 and g chatted somebody, Oh my god, did you hear so? 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.720 And so I was leaving, only to have them say, oh, yeah, 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.760 I already knew that. Yeah. Have you ever taken steps 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.000 before even giving notice but knowing that you would be 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.440 getting your affairs in order? Maybe you're you know, forwarding 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.680 information to your regular private email account, or do you 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:15.840 ever worry about, you know, not having everything if they 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:20.000 tell you hit the bricks. Yeah, if you think you 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.000 are going to take a job offer but you're not 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.480 ready to say yes, you're not at a place yet. 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:31.040 I also think it's only human to not let it 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.800 be a total shock for your boss. Like at some point, 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.760 I think if you are thinking or unhappy, like you 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.720 owe it to your employer to make your feelings visible 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.080 in some way, Like, I mean, at least that's something 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:47.240 I personally hate surprises. So I think that if you 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.960 think there's something you want out of another company that 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.200 your current employees possible for them to give to you, 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.880 I think don't have that conversation like with a gun 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.880 to their head necessarily, you know, like have that conversation 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.600 in advance. That's something that Sam and I were also 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.760 talking about that I definitely struggle with being honest with 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.119 the current employer about like constructive things that you want. 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:11.800 I mean, I've had employers say, oh, like you didn't 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:14.040 really ask us for that, How do we know that 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:15.919 you would have wanted it? And now you're just leaving 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:17.840 to go to another company to get it. We could 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:23.520 have maybe fixed it six weeks ago, but I'm too scared. Well, 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.280 it helps to feel like there's another suitor, right, Like, 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.880 it helps to feel like you have options. So when 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.159 you have that conversation, you're doing it like with the 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:35.200 private knowledge that like just so you have options. Yeah, 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.359 leverage basically exactly. And I think in many cases, you know, 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.359 certainly surprises can happen. But if you begin a job 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:45.399 process with another employer, there is a point at which 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.440 it's moved past the sort of preliminary and you realize, 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.240 like this is advancing, and you know this looks to 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.679 be heading somewhere. Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, it's you know, 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:00.399 you met, you like each other. May you're going to 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.720 fall in love, you know, But until anything is signed, 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.760 I would not assumption. I can't tell you how many 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:10.560 people I know, bright, smart, disciplined people who go and 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.439 tell their employers that they're leaving before they have the 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:18.680 written job offer. And you never know because sometimes that offer, 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:23.960 while it is definitely heading your way, gets delayed for 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.399 the most silly of reasons. Right the person who needs 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:29.640 to sign the form went on a two week vacation 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.160 and no one else can sign the form, and so 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.040 now the whole thing drags out and they're stuck. You know, 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:39.280 they've told their employer, but they they're not leaving. It's awful. Yeah, No, 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.399 that's terrible. That's terrible and should be avoided at all costs. Also, 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.800 like until you get the written job offer in the 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:48.760 case of your time at rescinding, I don't even know 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:50.920 how you deal with that. That seems like that's pretty 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.159 sort of sex macin that kind of way. Yeah, but 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:58.360 like there's no there's no guarantees, and that your future employer, 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.840 I mean, isn't you Guys, business is brutal, Like they're 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.159 talking to other people too. You know, you don't know 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.159 what the behind the scenes are. Are you taking any 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:11.080 time off between Atlas and your next move? Well, you know, 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.680 before I started Atlas, my soon to be former boss, 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:18.320 David Plotts, insisted that I take time off between jobs, 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:22.000 and I really deeply appreciated that in the wisdom of that. 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.679 So I'm taking a few days off. I should be 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.520 taking more time off, but but I'm not. I'm a 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:29.879 huge advocate of taking as much time off as you 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.880 can afford. It is a rare, rare thing to not 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:37.800 be at work and not necessarily have work on the 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.400 other side of it. Obviously, starting a new job requires 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.080 some new things, but you don't have that coming home 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.280 from vacation dread of like, oh that thing that I 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.440 let you know slide for two weeks is still there, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.719 and now you have sort of open territory. Precious. I've 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.320 actually considered going to grad school just for that time 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.400 between applying to grad school and hopefully getting into grad 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.520 school and knowing you're going to grad school. Same. I'm 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:02.680 so only jealous of my friends who went to law 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.720 school because they seem to have this like months long 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.720 time between taking the bar and starting their jobs, so 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.840 they get to travel places. But that is not a 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.600 reason to go to law school. It's not. And then 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.080 they have to go be first year associate somewhere and 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:21.120 so who zoom and who right? What's a vacation now, 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.800 Buddy Rahn, thank you so much for joining us. Oh 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:33.199 my god, thank you guys so much. This is fun. 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:38.440 You know. One thing we didn't get a chance to 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:41.760 talk to Rayhan about, although perhaps it's happening imminently, is 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.399